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Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And today we have special guest parent Katie with us. Hello, Katie, it's great to have you here.

Hi, thank you.

So I wonder if you can get us started just by telling us a bit about you and your family and some things that are really important to you as a parent, please.

Sure. So I've been married for almost 10 years. And we have three kids who are five, three, and one. In terms of what's important to me, I feel like on a day-to-day basis, it's just getting through the day. And ideally with some moments of connection and joy and fun. But really making it all the way through bedtime, not even just a bedtime. And in a bigger, on the bigger picture, I think the things that are important to me, as a parent, are really parenting in a way that helps create the world as I want it to be. And I think for me, there are at least two ways that really comes up for me. And one is the relationships with my kids and being able to in this power differential where as a parent, we have all the power, like how would I want that to look in the world? And how can I create that and practice that in my relationship with my kids? And then secondly, like really wanting to see always of being as beautiful and worthy. And to be able to provide that for my kids to accept them for whoever they are in that moment. And to help them to learn and to take that out into the world as well. And I think that, you know, first of all, I fail often at both of those, but really trying to have that to ground me and to kind of keep that big picture in mind. And then also that, you know, I didn't come to those ideas in isolation and really listening to the wisdom of other people, especially over these last few years. Like really listening to Black and indigenous women and other people of color and just hearing about other people's experience in the world. And their vision of how the world could be has really influenced you know where I'm at right now and how I see parenting and what's important to me. You know, and I really want to like name at least some of those people I'm sure there are very many but you know people like Alok or Sonya Renee Taylor, Robin Wall Kimmerer, Tricia Hersey, and you know so many others but really just wanting to acknowledge all the work and the wisdom that I've gained from so many of these other voices.

Yeah, I really appreciate that. I have a Rest Is Resistance on my nightstand right now. Midway through it. So yeah, and I learned so much from all those folks as well. Appreciate you're acknowledging that. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about what parenting was like in your early days. Can you can you just give us a flavor for what it was like to be Katie?

Sure. So parenting right from the beginning, I feel like has been hard. It's been challenging. And I remember bringing home our oldest from the hospital, you know, almost six years ago now. And just having this sense of I have no idea what to do. I do not know how to take care of a baby. And you know, we have a lot of challenges to do with breastfeeding and with sleep was a huge challenge. And even while I was pregnant, I found myself reading a lot of books, a lot of parenting books. And as we came up to different challenges like sleep, reading a lot of books there, I was even in a book club with other new moms, where we read parenting books, and you know, the Danish way of parenting and which there's, on the one hand, I found a lot of value in that. And at the same time, I feel like it also added to my confusion, where there's so much in the literature, like the parenting books that are out there that create the sense of, there's a right way to do it. And if you're doing it the other way, then that's the wrong way. And it's harmful for your kids. And it just, again, really added to the sense of I don't know how to navigate these different challenges that we're going through. I also had a lot of like, internal conflicts around career and motherhood, and I switched to being part-time after my oldest was born. And I remember at work, that I just, I would not even talk about having a baby at home, because it just felt like this sense of, I'm supposed to be the same as I was. And that is what, you know, helps you to do well in your career. And yet internally, things felt so different. And there was so much that I was trying to make sense of and so many changes. And I remember there was another person at work who had a baby a little bit after me. And they used to kind of the opposite approach where they talked about their child all the time, like in every interaction. And, you know, I wonder if some of that struggle was there for them to you know, that sense of how do I make sense that these two different worlds and, and this person I was before and with everything that's going on now. And, you know, we had lots of other challenges as he grew to, he ended up being diagnosed with food allergies, so he had some allergic reactions and broken bones when he was only one, and just all different challenges just seemed to continue. And with all of that, I think it was also and continued to be pretty lonely. We’re just trying to make connections to other people. And I think I've, throughout those different periods, have tried to join a lot of things like the new moms’ group at the hospital. And, you know, the book club that I've mentioned with other new parents, and kind of constantly looking for, how can I meet other people and connect and make sense of all these different things that we're experiencing. And yet I found it so, so hard to go from, like this friendly acquaintance to an actual friend and having like a deeper connection where you can make meaning of all those things. And that was also really surprising to me because vulnerability is something that came, I don't know if I'd say easily, but it was something that was very much a part of who I was before becoming a parent, where even coworkers or friends, they'd often comment about that like that my willingness to be vulnerable and to invite other people into that vulnerability was something that they valued about me. And yet with parenthood, I just couldn't do it. Like, I could not figure out how to have that same level of vulnerability when it came to the things that were going on for me as a parent.

Yeah, that sounds super challenging. And I'm now I'm really curious. You haven't mentioned your own family of origin yet. You're telling me that you're looking for community and all those places around you. And you haven't mentioned your family of origin? Was that a hard thing as well to navigate the transition to being a parent?

Oh, that's an interesting question. Well, I don't live near my family of origin. They're about a five or six hour drive away. My parents and my brothers also live not right where they are either. And we're closer to my husband's family, but at the time, they were still probably at least an hour drive away. So I think it's been a mix. I think there were times when I really relied on my mom, especially in those early couple months of just I have no idea how to take care of a baby. You've done this before. What can I do? And then other times where her style of parenting didn't fit the way that I was wanting to parents and where there were there was more conflict there then and so not the same you know, like, I think some of my just leaning into, okay, you do it because you know what to do was also not the healthiest for me in some ways, you know. But I think it's been hard to find that middle ground of where, yeah, like accessing that support and that help, but also still being able to be supported in my own thoughts and ideas and how I want to do things.

Yeah. Okay, so So you talked us through a bunch of challenges you had with your oldest child. And then there were two more children. And then at some point, you realize you needed some help? Well, what was that transition like?

Well, you know, we did have some periods where things seemed like, okay, like, we're in a good a good groove here. And it was probably like that before we had our second because, you know, it seems like, alright, we can do this again. And then when our right before our second was born, we moved. So we moved a little closer to my husband's family, so kind of outside of the city closer to where they lived. And then in literally, within two weeks before he was born. And so that was kind of, you know, starting over in some ways, you know, new acquaintances that I had developed, you know, we've left most of those, and so starting, again to join the things out here, and then the pandemic happened, which, you know, just really any, you know, relationships that I was starting to make, like, were really hard to maintain or keep up with all the isolation with a pandemic. And somewhere within there, we had a third. And that was around the time that I think I discovered Taming Your Triggers. And I just remember, at that point, I think, so we had a four-year-old, an almost two-year-old, and, you know, a one- or two-month-old. And things are really hard that transition to three has continued to be hard for us, but especially then with a newborn and not sleeping, and just finding myself reacting all the time to my older kids, especially my oldest because he would, you know, he started biting the middle child, and just being aggressive in other ways, too. You know, he obviously was struggling with that transition, too. But it was so hard to respond to that in a way that wasn't just, you know, losing it a little bit and yelling and, you know, be ultimately being shaming too, you know, that sense of like, why would you do that? And I just, yeah, like, I just felt this sense of like, I can't, I can't keep doing this, like, this isn't we can't keep functioning in this way. And I wish I wouldn't react so strongly. And I think that's where Taming Your Triggers came in. And it felt right at that point for me.

Yeah. And I'm also noticing that the huge discrepancy right in the in the way you introduced yourself, and the values that you told us were really important to you, and the actual interactions you were having with your children. Did you notice that at the time the kind of incongruence between those two things?

I think that the values that I have right now, I'm not sure how, if they were there in that same way at that time, but I definitely think that the sense of this isn't how I want to parent like, this isn't seeing that reaction to my kids of when I was yelling, and how scared they would be and how much shame they would struggle with when those interactions would happen, which was all throughout the day. That, at the very least like that sense of this. I don't want my kids to experience our relationship in this way. Yeah, and I think I looked back at my trigger journal, because I don't actually remember a lot from that time. Because, you know, especially with the lack of sleep, and when I was reading through the things I had written down at the beginning of Taming Your Triggers about what were the instances that were really triggering that anger for me. And I really didn't remember any of the specific things I had written down, you know, a lot of sibling aggression and, you know, like, leaving the fridge open when I was telling them to close it, things like that, that I just really don't remember. But what came through so strongly with that rage, like just, you know, in reading through these different things I had written at a time, these little instances, you know, I could feel it again in my body. And like all the exclamation points, this sense of like, they're not listening to me. And the other thing that stopped me is, it seems like these things were often happening when the baby was also crying. And so that sense of I can't get to this other child who also needs me. And in the trigger journal, I'd written crying, and then in parentheses, every time it said, and crying and crying, you know, so just this sense of, yeah, like, there, everyone is needing something, and, and trying to balance all of that, and just being filled with, like, this, this anger around like, I can't, I can't do it.

Yeah, and, and I, I want to acknowledge that you've done Taming Your Triggers twice. And also acknowledged that when I first heard that people were doing it more than once, I felt a really deep sense of shame. Because I thought, okay, if I, if I was any good at this, if I had designed the course actually did what it supposed to do, people would go through it once, they would shift how they interact with their children, and they wouldn't come back again. And one of the biggest lessons of my life has been, Jen, this isn't about you. And that people are actually getting something different out of it each time. Can you tell me why did you come back for a second time? And what was different about it? What shifted, I guess, between the first and second time? And then what was different in the second time?

Sure. So well, the second time was, was interesting, because I hadn't it was pretty much exactly a year later. And I hadn't planned to do it again, you know, I had heard that it was coming up. And I thought, you know, I don't feel triggered all the time right now. So this isn't necessarily a good fit for me, right now. And then you released a podcast episode on mutual aid. And it was just this beautiful episode that was really powerful for me, and something that I just brought up a lot of reflection for me, and this description of a mutual aid community and what that looks like, and I just found myself really grappling with like, wow, like, I, that's the type of community that I want to be part of, and how can I be part of those types of communities, and I'm looking for more community. And so how can I create that in a way that is similar to you know, how they described mutual aid, and where the needs are, you know, the resources are going to where the needs are most and where there isn't an othering of people who have more needs, and where the problem is located not in the individual, but in the systems. And where it's also just not keeping resources within people who are already resourced you know, where there's sharing of baby clothes, just with other people who also have baby clothes available. And, and really making sure that those resources are also getting to people who don't have as much to contribute in the same way, but are also contributing in other ways, you know? And so it’s really grappling with a lot of this and looking for how can I make this a part of my own life. And you sent out this marketing email for Taming Your Triggers, and it really hit on those things, it said, you know, if you're looking for ways that you can impact the systems to have them work better for you, and for all the other people, you know, like, tame your triggers is the thing to do. And it really wasn't like a cognitive decision at the time, it just was this, this intuition of, I think I should do this again, like, I think this is a right time for me to do it. So I signed up for it.

Okay. All right. And so to the extent that you can separate those two experiences in your mind, I'm curious about shifts that happened, the first time you went through? And then if there was anything different the second time that you went through, can you can you walk us through some of that?

Sure. And I think they are very separate for me, and almost more so because I remember a lot of the shifts as I was going through the first time. And then the second time was more realizing how much had continued to shift between that time since I ended Taming Your Triggers. So thinking back to that, that first time. I well, I already mentioned in the trigger journal that, you know, is part of the very beginning of being able to keep track of when it is that you're being triggered. And a piece of that was also paying attention to what's happening in your body at those times and starting to notice, like what are the signals in your body that you're getting close to that point? And it still makes me laugh because even when it happens today, it always catches me by surprise. That what I saw at that time, I remember, just you know, constantly feel like I'm so hot right now like Is anyone else hot in here like I need to take off my sweater. And I thought at the time, I was like, oh, it's just these postpartum hormones like, you know. And I eventually realized in keeping the journal that like, oh, no, that's when I'm about like, I'm boiling inside and I'm about to lose it, you know? And so even to this day, like, I'll find myself saying, oh, gosh, is anyone else hot in here? And then it's this signal for me now it's like, wait a minute, am I feeling really frustrated? And like, I'm getting really angry? Oh, I am yes. Like, that's why I'm getting so hot. It's not the temperature in the room right now. So that piece was really helpful to start to be able to see that signal from my own body, that things were escalating for me.

Oh, wow, that's really beautiful. And that's, I think one of the core concepts in the workshop right is, is that it seems like these things come out of nowhere, your kid does something and you go from zero to 60, in no time whatsoever. But actually, very often, this builds, builds throughout the day. And when we can start to see our body signals, not our brain signals, but our body signals telling us that something is coming, then we can actually take a step to interrupt that cycle. So thank you so much for pointing that out.

Yeah, I think going along with that, in that same first module, the window of tolerance was a helpful concept for me that, you know, that there were these different factors that were impacting how quickly I would escalate to that, and just being able to frame it in that way, where sometimes that window is wider, and the same instances wouldn't trigger me. And when that window was small, like just the littlest thing would set me off. And I couldn't necessarily, like, there were some things that I could change a little bit, you know, making sure that I ate breakfast first thing in the morning, so I wasn't too hungry. But there were also things that just weren't as in my control with a newborn, and sleep and everything, so but just that concept of, like, I just last night wasn't great for sleep, you know, worse than normal for sleep. And so, of course, you know, things are bothering me more, and it just was the start of a little bit more compassion, and a little bit more just in recognizing that factor like that. I think, maybe part of that sense of like, it's not, it's not me, you know, like, it's just the situation that I'm in is causing a lot more reactivity for me, and, and that sometimes would help to then not be as not necessarily not be as reactive, but to have a little bit more pause before acting on that, you know, so that window of tolerance was a helpful concept. And then all the stuff related to NVC, or that nonviolent communication, that I hadn't come across that before your work, and it, that whole concept of needs. And it was really a, like kind of a shift in worldview, for me to realize this sort of alternative to what I've always felt is more this sense of like, okay, either your needs are met, or my needs are met, like, either we do your strategy or my strategy. And that there can be this other way of looking at it, where both of us can get our needs met, and we can work together to try to figure out how can we both get our needs met. And I just remember feeling very, like wait a minute, like this is this is very different. This is a very different way of looking at things for me. And I think one of the first ways that it really stood out for me is around the thinking about holidays. Because like I mentioned, I don't live right near my family. And especially being with someone whose family doesn't live near my family. Also, it was often real conflict around what to do for holidays, were we actually traveling to where my family was, were we not, and that was very important to my mom. And it often felt like it was either she got her way, like she got her needs met. And I was frustrated. Or I said, you know, we're just not coming and I got my needs met. And she was really hurt and sad and upset. And it just that always felt like the only options to me. And so being able to see the sense of like, oh, like we could look a little deeper and like, why is it that going there doesn't feel like it's going to work for me this year. You know, why is it that she really wants us there, right on the day of the holiday, you know, and how can we find other ways to meet those needs that look different that can work for both of us. And that was just a really profound shift for me. Like to be able to see this new alternative of it's not just either I get to feel okay about it or you get to feel okay about it, that there can be something different than that.

Yeah. And I think that's a really important point that parents come into this struggling with their relationship with their child and wanting to do something differently there, and then find that this is relevant to all of our relationships. So we can use these tools in so many other places. And of course, we're all dying to know, what did you do about holidays?

I know it was funny thinking about that story. I was like, yeah, we don't really have a good solution yet. But I think though, it's different though, that now we, I come at it, at least from a different place of always looking for like, okay, but what you know, like, what about having us there on that day is what's important to you? And how can we still get that thing that's important to you, in a way that also works for us? And looking at our own situation to like, you know, why is it that driving there this year just feels really challenging? And are there ways that we can shift what we're doing? And so, and that changes too I think that's another factor like that sense of the needs can change each time. And so it doesn't have to be a, well, this is just what we do, because that's what we do. And it's more of a let's look at what the needs are this year, and see what can work this year for it.

Yeah, yeah. And so what I'm hearing is a thing I often hear when parents are starting with this with their child as well, is that even if we aren't ultimately right now able to find a solution that actually meets both of our needs, that something about approaching it in this way, helps me to be with it differently. It loosens something up and also maybe helps the other person come towards us as well because they see that we're not approaching it from a lose-lose conflict based perspective that they see we're actually trying to meet their needs as well. Did you get that impression with your folks?

Yeah, I think so. And I think, even, especially for myself, like being able to say, okay, like, how could I make this work for me in ways that are working for them, too, you know, like being able to adjust like, how do I like, if I know that, you know, there's going to be a dog there. And that's gonna feel really stressful with my little baby, and how can we adjust things to make that feel a lot less stressful for me? Like, what sort of parameters can we put in place? Rather than just feeling like, I just can't do it. You know, that's just too much. And so, yes, I think there's a little bit of the coming towards from both sides. But even when that's not there, on the other side, I feel like there's enough shift in me to really help it to feel a little more win-win.

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for drawing that up for us.

Sure. I think the NVC really, like there were a lot of things from that, that really impacted me right away, too. And you mentioned that sense of that. It's not just with our kids. And I think one of the big ways for me was also how it impacted just my own inner voice or like, especially like an inner critic, you know, that. That voice that's like, Oh, why did you do that? Or and it was just really interesting because it even reflecting on it. Now. It's like, yeah, I not just I didn't anticipate that. But it's still interesting looking back at it. So like, one way that this came up is I would often struggle with that inner critic in the mornings, like if I was up a lot with the baby overnight. And then my husband would take the kids when they got up and do breakfast. And if I went back to sleep, instead of, you know, like, being more prepared for the day or something like that. When I did get out of bed, I had to have this sense of like, oh, why did I go back to sleep, like I wasted this time, and now I'm not ready for the day. And I'm so frustrated with myself and being able to stop and look at like, okay, like what needs did I meet though, like what was, so matching up, like the needs with the strategy I actually took was really helpful to lessen that voice and to be able to say, like, oh, like, I'm exhausted, and I really needed that rest. And even though I didn't get up and ready for the day and feel like I'm starting off on a good foot, like, there were still ways that that met my needs, it just is different than the needs I'm thinking about right now. And it was surprising how much that really helped me. And I stopped having these mornings where I'd feel like right before I went to be with the kids, I was, you know, kind of beating myself up about like, how could you have spend time on your phone and, you know, and instead be able to say like, I just needed my own space. And it's okay that I did that because I was meeting a need, even though it's not these needs I'm thinking about right now. So, yeah, kind of the way that NVC helped me internally, versus just like helped me in relationship to other people. And I think that too, with, like, so looking at, like, how is this meeting my needs? But then also like, how can I be okay with something that's meeting my needs, but I'm also like, again, that critic like, sort of feeling bad about. So I remember from that time with the baby, you know, again, a newborn, she's napping multiple times a day. And we had kind of fallen into this pattern where the older kids would watch TV during that time. And that was meeting my needs, and that they were safe when they were watching TV and not hurting each other when I wasn't there. But I would also feel really stressed about it, it just this sense of, oh, gosh, they're watching so much TV right now. And being able to stop and look at like, why is that stressful to me? You know, like, what needs is that not meeting and, and being able to explore that a little bit. And think about like, oh, well, it's because like, I feel like, I should be connecting with them. And I'm not when they're watching TV by themselves. And I really think that they should have some playtime and not be watching TV. And so then being able to look at, okay, well, how can I meet those needs in other ways? And I remember, like, kind of shifting and saying, like, you know what, I'm going to let them watch TV. I mean, they were watching TV anyway, right? Like, I'm going to keep with that strategy, and then eat my own breakfast after the baby takes their first is taking your first nap, and then I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna, like snuggling with them. And when the show's over, I'll ask them about what they watched. And, you know, so finding a way to connect, like, meet that need for connection. Even within this TV watching that was initially feeling like that did to me, right, and then looking for okay, and then we'll go play after that. And so they're still meeting this need for having a lot of playtime. And so just the way it helped me to be more okay, with things that initially were feeling like, you know, how could I do make this choice as a parent or, you know, so I can that the way it impacted that inner critic, for me, has continued to be really helpful.

Yeah, and it's, I think it's so powerful to be able to see what needs we are meeting using the strategies that we've chosen, and being able to say, is that the best strategy to meet that need, and sometimes to be able to say, I'm actually not sure it is, maybe I should try a different strategy, and sometimes to be able to say, you know, what, it really is. And I may have all these stories about what a good brother should do, what a perfect parent should do. And I can recognize that those are stories and that I don't have to listen to those stories. And I can choose this strategy consciously because it is actually the one that meets my needs right now. And no matter what, what anyone else would say about it, and what my inner critic might say about it.

Yeah. And I think, for me, especially paying attention to what those stories were really about, like, what's the need underneath that story, you know, like, a good mother would make sure their kids were playing all the time, or, you know, whatever it is, and being able to recognize where like, oh, like, I'm still doing that, you know. And so I think that piece of not just, you know, like, I'm not gonna listen to these stories, but actually finding the need that those stories were based on, you know, and then noticing how I either was doing that meeting that need or how could I meet that need? And that really made it so that the stories weren't as powerful, right? Because that need that they that was driving those stories was, I could see how I was meeting that still.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. And I think meditation was a different experience for you this time, wasn’t it?

So I had had a lot of experience with mindfulness and meditation before Taming Your Triggers, and over multiple years, and I just never loved it. Like I always when I would get into periods where I would do it more often. It was always out of the sense of like, well, it's supposed to be good for you, like I should do it. And it was never something that I really, truly enjoyed doing it all. And as part of Taming Your Triggers, there's this one meditation, the rain meditation, I think, is it is it Tara Brach? Rain meditation. And it was part of one of the modules and it just was the best experience I've had of mindfulness and meditation. And I think it was because so often, mindfulness for me had been presented as this way of sort of distancing yourself from your thoughts in your body and you're just noticing these things and trying to keep your distance from them. Whereas in this rain meditation, it's what does it stand for recognize, allow, investigate and nurture in memory. And so the investigating and the nurturing those last two steps are all about, like actually interacting with those thoughts, those emotions, the sensations in your body, and really bringing them a lot of compassion to, you know, there are parts of it, where it's like, you know, like, go ahead and touch that part, if that feels good, or you know, like, offer some massage, or just, it was just so helpful for me to be able to interact with those things, instead of always trying to keep them at a distance and to be not affected by it. Like you were really looking more at, like, how is this affecting you like what emotions are coming up as you notice these things, or if you think about this memory, and it was the first time that I really actually enjoyed meditation or mindfulness and actually wanted to do it again, instead of just feeling like, well, it's supposed to be a thing to do. So that was really helpful.

Yeah. And I should mention, actually, that we're going to introduce some new meditation practices this time around, I think one thing that I see parents do a lot is, you pick a quiet time to do your meditation practice, the kids are asleep, or they're not up yet, and you do it and you're like, okay, this is good, I'm good. And then the day starts and everything falls apart. And it's like, there's the mindfulness practice, and the rest of the day almost sit on different planes. And so what we're doing is we're recording some super short practices that you can do throughout your day, and start by listening to them and eventually not even need to listen to them anymore. Because they're so short, you'll just remember them. And so that you can do this ditto to have little reset points throughout your day, rather than having it come in in one chunk all at once. And from what I've seen, and what I've seen people who have tried it this way, you're much more able to, to reconnect with yourself when you're having that difficult moment, right? Because you've done it so many times through the day, it's not just one 20 minute chunk. It's a couple of minutes, a couple of minutes, couple minutes. And so it's much more easy to say, oh, yeah, I remember what I'm gonna check in with myself, deep breath. Okay, and now I can respond to the situation. So yeah, we're always, always pushing the boundaries as much as we can. I'm curious as to whether there were some concepts that you struggled with more, and maybe some shifts that took longer to reveal themselves?

Well, so first of all, I didn't finish Taming Your Triggers. Either time I took it, I don't think. And it was so helpful. And I think that not finishing was not necessarily because of anything specific in terms of the content in Taming Your Triggers, I think it was just, you know, life and feeling like, the first time I got a lot further into it, I think I did, maybe at least nine of the 10 modules. And I had an AccountBuddy, that time where we were very consistent, and we met weekly, and that really helped to get through almost all of it. And then the second time was not as much. And I think I did a little more of, you know, maybe missing a couple weeks and then jumping in at a later point for something that felt really relevant. So, yeah, so I took some things that I struggled with in it. I don't necessarily remember anything specific in terms of struggling. But when I took it the second time, that's where I really was able to see how much had continued to shift since it ended the first time. And I, which was just really interesting to me to like to realize, like oh, like I'm in a very different place right now with the same concepts than I was, you know, so not just that the 10 weeks of the workshop were helpful and being in a different place at the end, but also that that those things continued to be present and to shift and to end up in a different place, even when I wasn't directly in the workshop. So things like well, I remember that when I was speaking with my AccountaBuddy in that first time, she also had three kids, and they were a little bit older than mine. Not a lot, but a little bit. And I remember when she would tell stories about interactions that she'd had with her kids or when she was triggered. She would then often talk about the repair that she had tried with her kids afterwards. And I just, I distinctly remember having this sense of like, wow, like, I can't even imagine repairing with my kids right now. Like I just can't even imagine what that would look like or how I would do that or when I would start doing that. And when I took it the second time I was repairing all the time with my kids then. And just, and even sometimes, like, in the moment, like, I'd find myself reacting to something and catching myself and be like, oh, wait, like, I'm sorry, like, this isn't helpful right now, like, let's shift this and approach it a little bit differently. And, like, that's not a shift that I would have anticipated, like, even at the end of that first round of Taming Your Triggers, especially to the extent that I catching it in the middle, like, let alone you know, repairing it all. So that was a big thing. And then even, you know, just that sense of catching it in the middle or being able to, to notice that and then at a different point in the cycle. And I think for me, that was both, like, when I took it the first time, it was just, you know, reacting to my kids all day long. And then the second time, it was more, you know, like patient, patient, patient and then snapping, you know, so that was very different. And then again, being able to notice it building a little bit more and, and even hearing myself, you know, making threats or, you know, saying something that feels shaming, and then noticing that as it's happening and being able to shift gears, like those were things that I was doing when I started taming your triggers the second time. So it wasn't even from taking it the second time, it was just the shifts that have continued to happen for me.

And I am amused to notice that the repair module is Module 10, that you missed. So yes, still, it's still there, should you find you need it, but it looks like you're on a good check. And so now that you are able to see this happening, right, I can see that you're making this shift from I don't even know that this is happening to oh, I see it happening. And I can check repair in the moment I can change course in the moment. Have you also seen just tying it back to your ability to kind of notice the heat in your body as well? Do you see it coming now, as well?

Often, I mean, and again, none of us I'm not in any sort of perfect parenting place ever will be either. But there, but there are a lot more times where I can see it coming now. And I think that's an area where I'm still experimenting too. Where, because it's, you know, like, sure, it'd be great if I could always tap out when that would happen. But that's not the reality of my life right now. And so still really experimenting with what is helpful when I noticed that coming and, and sometimes just that, that pause, and that breath, like isn't enough, like that doesn't do it for me. And so I know, there have been some times recently where I found myself, you know, singing out loud to my kids, like, I'm starting to feel really frustrated. And I really want to stomp my feet and then sort of inviting them into that, like, does anybody want to stomp their feet with me, like, let's all stomp our feet together. And sometimes that physical motion, like something physical can really help to sort of have that emotion like work through my body. And even the other day, we were getting ready to go outside. So we're right near our garage door. And, you know, my middle child pushed the youngest one over, and I have this, you know, and it had been building because it was we're struggling to get ready and to get out the door. And I was like, hold on just a second. Like I felt myself ready to yell at them. They went in the garage, and I yelled out, they're like, oh, just stop doing that. And then I came back in. And it was like, I just had so much more compassion in that moment for them. So I think the figuring out what to do, when I'm noticing that I'm being triggered, that that's still something that I'm figuring out and you know, maybe always will be figuring out. But one thing that I've tried recently, because sometimes that pause just doesn't sometimes it helps and I'm able to keep going and bring that compassion and other times just doesn't like it's still building. And so one thing I've experimented with recently is just being able to name that and to say out loud, you know, wow, I'm feeling so frustrated right now. And I'm really feeling like I wanna stomp my feet and then inviting the kids into that, like, oh, like does anybody want to stomp their feet with me and then you know, whether they join in or not just stomping my own feet, and sometimes just that physical movement really helps to move that emotion through my body. And, you know, I remember just the other day that we were getting ready to go outside so we're down near our garage, and you know, it had taken a while to get all our stuff on and so that frustration was building and my three year old pushed the one-year-old and I just felt that you know that anger really start to build and I, I could recognize that like, it's not going to be helpful to yell at you right now. But that urge is still there. And I said, hold on, let me step into the garage for a minute. So I stepped into the garage, and I just, you know, yelled out there, and it was like, Ah, stop doing that. And then it just was able to work its way through my body. And I was able to come back in and just bring that compassion of like, oh, I know, you're so worried about school, a leader. And it's so hard with those big feelings in your body.

So I know that some parents who go through Taming Your Triggers find that their children's behavior really shifts as a result of kind of moving towards them. And what I'm hearing from you is your children are still doing the things that young children do, right. And yet, somehow you're showing up differently here. Can you speak about that a little bit?

Yeah, exactly. I think I went into Taming Your Triggers really looking for that success story that I had heard of, you know, it's me changing, but then ultimately, their behavior changes too and I can't say that I really found that or, you know, perhaps, perhaps it's there. But there's still enough of those times that their behavior is still really challenging and frustrating. But I think that they experience me differently like, that their experience around their behavior is really different. And rather than being met with shame, and with yelling, and experiencing that fear, and that shame themselves around it, instead, much more often, they're met with compassion and understanding. And just that sense of like, yeah, like, it is hard, whatever just happened. And, and I get it, like, it is really challenging to navigate that and it's okay, that you're feeling this way, or that you have this urge to push over this kitchen cart, or, you know, whatever it is, and that I'm hopeful that that really creates a big difference for them over the long term. And I think it's had a big difference for us, for our family, like just in the short term to be able to show up differently like that.

And so much more aligned with your values, right, that you mentioned in the beginning. Yeah, yeah. So the first time you did the workshop, you didn't do group coaching. The second time you did do group coaching. I'm wondering why you decided to do it the second time, and what was it like to be on those calls?

Sure. So well, the first time I wasn't, let's see, I would say well, I've seen you coach other people before I've been in, I think I first encountered your work with the right from the start course. So that was actually while I was pregnant with that third baby who was then born by the time Taming Your triggers came around. And when I the first coaching call I was ever on. And watching you coach, someone on the call was just this really, like, different experience and really, like deep communal experience, I feel like even though I wasn't the one being coached, yeah, at the time, you had us, like turn off all of our cameras, it was just you and the other person. And I remember thinking like, wow, this is like watching a really good therapy session. It's just like, an even better than a therapy session because I feel like your coaching is more meant to have shifts, like just within that one coaching session where therapy is more long term, like it's, you know, that's, that's more of the long game. And so, not only was it this really good, like responsive therapy session, but then there was more movement in it than in a, potentially like a regular therapy session. And just that, like the intimacy to be a witness to that really left me feeling a deep sense of connection and community, even though I wasn't the one being coached. And so I witnessed it and been a part of other coaching calls, but never been coached myself. So I think in that first round of taming your triggers, and other calls I'd been on, it just, I wasn't in a place where I, I felt safe enough to do that, I guess, like where it didn't meet my need for safety. And I think, again, with sort of that NVC language, like being able to recognize, like, you know, what, that there's nothing wrong with me that that didn't meet my need for safety. And there's nothing wrong with the call, that it didn't meet my being for safety. Like, that's just how it was at the time. And so I think going into it the second time I took it, that that was the thing that really drew me to it too, and feeling like you know, it's just it's a small group in Taming Your Triggers. It's not as big as say, Right From The Start calls. And the fact that it was small and knowing that going into it did better meet my need for safety. And so I think that's a lot of the ways that I was able and ready at the time to sign up for it. And it was probably the best part of the last second time of doing it was the coaching calls and allowing myself to be coached and to be vulnerable in that way. And I think for me, a lot of that has also been just a practice of the vulnerability that I want when it comes to parenting in a space where it does feel safe to do that, and to have that be received and to get support in that. And I remember one of the things that I was coached on was a moment where I was triggered, and I felt a lot of shame about it. And even coming back and listening to the recording afterwards. Like, I didn't feel that same amount of shame, like listening to it. I just found myself nodding along and being like, yeah, of course, that's how it played out, you know. And I think a lot of that is also the response that I got in sharing that with you and with the other people on the call. And so it was really helpful, both in terms of processing and working through some of those things, and they'll weigh it helped me to de-shame the experiences that I was having. And the way it helped me practice being in community in the way that I want to around parenting.

Yeah, I love that. And I think so many parents, and I think you as well, we were having this need for safety. That wasn't you didn't think was going to be met because it's like, isn't this weird to like, tell stuff in front of people I don't even know? And, and a lot of parents really struggle with that idea. And on the flip side of that, I think there's something really powerful that happens when we are vulnerable. And when other people witness that vulnerability, and hold that with us. And when we're doing it for everybody else who's being coached, and everybody else is doing it for you being coached. And I think that's a huge part of the de-shaming process is processing that with other people, not just with me.

Yeah, I agree that it was. Yeah, I definitely think that it was better that there were more people there than just being one on one than that. Not just witnessing other people, but having other people with this my experience and be able to relate to it, too.

Yeah. Because that community is pretty important to you, right? What is how does that show up for you in terms of navigating this vulnerability, alongside wanting to be in real community with others, where you're not just kind of sharing these surface-level relationships, but really deep relationships?

Sure. So I mean, I mentioned that even just with that early, early on in parenting, were reaching that same level of vulnerability that I really crave. And that helps me to make meaning of the things going on in my life has just been really hard when it comes to parenting. And I think, you know, a lot of that is even just the discourse around parenting, like, where, when you're not coming at it from more of this needs-based thing where it becomes more of a, there's a right way to do it and a wrong way. And there's just so much potential judgment from other people around parenting things. And that's been a helpful framework with the need space because then it doesn't, it's just about does it meet your needs or not? You know, so, I think that being in community, both the virtual community and circle and in the coaching community group, that it was really helpful to practice that vulnerability that I really want in my relationships outside of, you know, virtual communities, and to be able to witness other people being vulnerable. And to see the response from other people like to see that vulnerability be received and supported. And the first time I took it, I probably didn't participate as much on circle. And I still found that helpful, to be able to witness and to see, and to have experiences where someone else was vulnerable, and it was safe, it was okay. And then by the second time I took it, being able to do that more myself and receive that and to have it be safe and to have it be helpful to be able to make more sense of things. And so, you know, whichever level that I was able to engage in, in the community, I still found it really helpful and helping me to get closer to the vulnerability that I want in my day-to-day relationships to around parenting.

Yeah, so if there are parents who are relatively early in this journey, and they're just trying to imagine, maybe start I seem to imagine things might be different than they are right now. But they're not sure where to start. What advice would you give folks on where to start?

I think in terms of where to start just finding places that you can do this work that do feel safe. And even if that's virtual, like I think as much as I've wanted that to be in person, that the virtual communities have been a good stepping stone for me, and something that I've actually really needed, I think, because they do better meet that need for safety, and allow me to practice and build that up. So I think finding a place where it feels safe for you to do this work and to process this and to try to find ways to make it be different than it is right now, if that's what you're looking for. And I think also just that another big shift for me over time has been going back to that mutual aid episode, and really being able to locate the problem not in the individual, and in more of the systems. And in a lot of that NVC work also being about with that inner critic, you know, being able to say like, okay, like, this isn't me, like, It's not my fault, like, things are set up in ways that make it really hard to be a parent in our society. And, you know, being triggered by my kids, yelling at my kids, like not being able to be amazing, and all of the things that I wish I was amazing at, you know, and that and that everyone around me is saying, like, you need to do all of these things and do them well, like not being able to do that is not because I'm not enough, you know, it's and so that advice to parents, like it's not your fault. It's not that you're not enough, it's not that your kids are not enough, you know, that it's the systems that we're working within. And that, of course, that we can't do it all and do it all to the extent that we are told that we need to, to, you know, so that shift has been really helpful for me. And I wish I had been able to start to recognize that even earlier, I think that would have been really helpful for me to start to recognize that like, you know what, this isn't me like, I'm not broken. You know, my kids aren't broken. Like it's just the system that we're trying to do this, and that has made it so hard.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being here with us, Katie, it's been such an honor and a privilege to work part of this journey with you.

Thank you so much for all the support that you've provided, and all the work that you put out into the world as well.

Hi, this is Jess from Burlesque, Panama. I'm a Your Parenting Mojo fan and I hope you enjoy this show as much as I do. If you found this episode especially enlightening or useful, you can also donate to help Jen produce more content like this and also save us from those interminable mattress ads. Then you can do that and also subscribe in the link that Jen just mentioned. And don't forget to head to YourParentingMojo.com to record your own message for the show.