In today's episode we are tackling one of the most harmful societal constructs that has persisted for generations. And that is telling boys and men that having feelings is girly, that they aren’t allowed to cry and that showing emotions is a sign of weakness.

Listen in as I talk with author Jim Young who’s book Expansive Intimacy: How “Tough Guys” Defeat Burnout, explores the rules of masculinity that force men into a false choice: that choice being either face shame by embracing their inner desires for meaningful connection, or invite burnout by following the harsh rules that require men to shun emotions and emphasize achievement. 

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Jim Young

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Expansive Intimacy Book

In today's episode, we are tackling one

of the most harmful societal constructs.

2

That has persisted for generations.

3

And that is telling boys and men

that having feelings is girly.

4

That they aren't allowed to cry and not

showing emotions is a sign of weakness.

5

Welcome to episode 1

69 of this shit works.

6

A podcast dedicated to all

things, networking, relationship

7

building and business development.

8

I'm your host, Julie Brown.

9

Speaker author and networking coach.

10

And today.

11

I am joined by author Jim young,

whose book expansive intimacy,

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how tough guys, defeat burnout,

explores the rules of masculinity

13

that force men into a false choice.

14

That choice being.

15

Either face shame by embracing

their inner desires for meaningful

16

connection or invite burnout.

17

By following the harsh rules

that require men to shun emotions

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and emphasize achievements.

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Needing to be a tough guy.

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Or the whole man up culture.

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Is a set of societal expectations and

norms that dictate how men should behave.

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It encourages men to be stoic.

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Uh, emotionless and tough

in the face of adversity.

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It's a construct that teaches men to

suppress their emotions, especially

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fall durability and sadness.

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And the consequences of this culture

has ripple effects, especially when

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it comes to emotional wellbeing.

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Meaningful connections.

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And burnout.

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Which is why I'm so glad that

Jim is here because he's here

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to call bullshit on all of that.

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And offer us some tips and

perhaps a roadmap on how we can

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begin to combat these Consta.

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Constructs in our own

relationships and in our own lives

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Julie: so, Jim, hi, hello,

so excited you're here.

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Jim: Yeah.

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Thanks, Julie.

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I'm excited to talk about how all

that shit doesn't work and what does.

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Julie: You so many guests now are

like, when they're on, they, they

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put this shit doesn't work into.

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Thank What they're talking about,

and I love that because it's like,

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it's so on brand, obviously on brand.

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It's like a podcast

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Jim: it's such a great name.

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Yeah.

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Julie: Yeah, all right, so let's dive in.

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So it's the societal constructs of

telling men not to cry, of being tough,

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deep historical roots here, millennia,

why has it persisted for so long?

49

Jim: I think we, we're still stuck

in some of those old patterns.

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And I think a lot of its story and

narrative, you know, the socialization

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that we get of what it really means

to be a man and, society has shifted

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so much in the past, call it a

hundred years or 30 years or 50 years.

53

Right.

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And, and I grew up, I'm a child

of the seventies and I remember

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the women's lib movement.

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I remember as a kid hearing about

that and I'm like, I don't know

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what that means, but I do now.

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Like what I saw was that we finally

started granting women full permission

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to participate and that shifted in a

major way and it was a huge threat to men

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because like, well, what's our purpose?

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And what I think has happened is men

have just grabbed back on to say,

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like, I got to hold on tight to this.

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And we see it all over the place.

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We're seeing it in horrible events

across the globe and in everyday society.

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So I think it's a lot of it

is like identity struggle.

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Julie: Can you talk a little bit about

maybe your personal experiences, growing

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up as a man, and how these constructs

have affected you throughout your life?

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I

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Jim: Yeah, for sure.

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So I, I was born a.

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A sensitive kid, sensitive being.

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And I learned pretty quickly that

that wasn't okay because I was a boy.

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And now I was being raised in a

single family, single parent house.

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My mom was raising me and my sister.

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The other dominant figure in my life

at that time was my grandmother.

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So I'm raised around three women, right?

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I'm learning the world a

lot through their eyes.

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And then I'm going out.

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Whether it's, you know, into school or

hanging out with my friends or later on

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in life, getting into college or work,

and I've got all these influences that

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on one side told me, , we appreciate

you being this sensitive, caring person.

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That's who I was in my family.

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But when I stepped out, I got.

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I got bullied for that.

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I got called names for that.

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And I realized I had to shut that down.

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Like that was not an

okay way for me to be.

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I was not going to get ahead with my

peers in athletics in school at work.

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If I showed up as this sensitive guy.

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So I had to put on.

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All this tough gear.

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Now, I don't want to suggest that,

you know, we shouldn't be as men

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tough and take on hard things.

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Like that's part of

what's great about guys.

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Right.

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And I have that, those qualities, but

I also have the other qualities of

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being a caring person, having emotions.

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And to me, it's about having

that balance that I can bring.

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And it's taken me a long time to feel

like it's okay to say like, yeah,

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that part of me he's allowed into

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Julie: think this is so interesting

because you said you were so For a lot

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of my childhood, my mom was a single mom.

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I had, so I had my mom and I had my older

sister, and then I had my mom's mom.

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So very similar

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Jim: name.

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Julie: Our kind of family

was the same as yours.

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And I had the exact opposite experience,

where I grew up in a family that it

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was, you almost had to act like a man

because there were no men in the family.

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it was, it was very difficult, it

was, you didn't show emotion, you

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didn't cry, crying was for babies,

I'll give you something to cry

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about, like, there was absolutely,

no tolerance for being a girl.

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I think it's weird, I think with the

other, my other sister, there was

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for some reason, but when it came to

me, there was no tolerance for it.

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And so I learned to be.

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Emotionally shut down.

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Like I still don't find it easy to show

emotion, to talk about emotion, to cry.

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Like, I think the most I ever cried

was when my dog died and I was.

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46 years old and it was the

most I'd ever cried in my life.

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And so it's funny.

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I, you would think being raised

predominantly by women, I would have

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had a more emotional upbringing and

it was, it was devoid of emotion.

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Jim: It's not surprising to me.

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I mean, you're born in a, you know,

a female body and you're raised in a

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female family largely in a male dominated

society that says like the way to get

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ahead is to not show any weakness.

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And it's like, it's silly, right?

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Like we all go through our dog

dies, or we don't get the promotion

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that we want, or we get dumped.

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Like, there's all this stuff that happens

to us in our lives that brings up emotion.

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Like it's just natural.

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And yet so many of us, whether

we're men or women or whatever,

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we get the message that says.

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You know, just brush that

off, like, just keep going.

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And it's like, that doesn't give

us much room to deal with what's

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actually going on inside of us.

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And we're holding it in and it's

causing all kinds of stress and

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Julie: I

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Jim: tons of negative consequences

long term when we do that.

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Julie: I heard you once say,

or I read that you said that.

140

You had a six hour improv class that

changed your life, and I'm so curious as

141

to what possibly happened in that improv

class that could have changed your life.

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Jim: I think the bottom line is that I

got permission to stop pretending, right?

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Which doesn't make a lot of sense, right?

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I was going into a class where I was just

pretending, you know, making shit up, but

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I didn't have to pretend I was somebody.

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I didn't have to go in there with all

these accomplishments and this status

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of who I was and what I could do.

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I was just in there to be creative

and have fun and connect with people.

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And that, that first A workshop

I went to six hours one day, like

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eight years ago, I just walked

into this place where I felt like.

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It didn't matter what I was, who I was,

how I was, like, I was just accepted.

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I belonged there.

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And I could be how I wanted to be.

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And over the years, I've been

practicing improv since then.

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I've got a show on Saturday

and, and I've learned so much.

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about how I can just show up and

explore emotions, explore relationships.

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And it's literally liberating.

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Like I've, I've felt the weight come

off of my shoulders of like trying

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to show up a certain way for people.

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And it's a little bit funny because

it's like in improv, it's like this

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constructed thing where I'm going to show

up with this persona that I put on, but

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somehow it frees me up in my real life.

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Julie: Yeah, it's fun.

164

I have a couple of questions

to ask built off of that.

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I think my first question is how do

we start being comfortable showing

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emotion, especially when we're not

sure how other people will react

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to our emotions because there's the

vulnerability of showing it and then

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also not knowing how people will react.

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And like, I, I had a really

interesting learning experience.

170

Um, actually, so I don't have children.

171

I have the dogs.

172

And so all the neighborhood kids,

like my dogs were there, my kids that

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they played with, like they would

come over and play with my dogs.

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And so when my dog passed away, the kids

in the neighborhood took it really hard.

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And I was over the neighbor's house.

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Having dinner or something and

my neighbor's son started

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crying because he missed my dog.

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And I am embarrassed to say it now because

it, because I've learned this stuff, and

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I said to him, I said, Oh baby, don't cry.

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It's okay.

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And.

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I told my husband later when I went

home, I said, Oh, so I don't want

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to say his name because I don't have

permission, but I was like, so and so

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was crying because he misses Royce.

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And he goes, that's good.

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That's good that he was crying,

that he was showing emotion.

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And I was like, not the reaction I had.

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And I felt terrible that I

didn't give him the space to cry.

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Because I couldn't.

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Because I was still emotionally,

unavailable from it.

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Jim: Yeah.

192

That makes me think of.

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How I got into improv in the

first place, which was my kids.

194

It's my kids were doing improv classes

and they were having so much fun with it.

195

And I, that's what inspired me.

196

But that connection to that second

part is that I think one of the safe

197

places or one of the ways that I

got emotions, emotional expression

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modeled for me was my kids, I've got

three kids, they're now 20, 18 and 15.

199

And back then, you know, as

they were growing up, I got to

200

see them just be how they were.

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Right.

202

And kind of unfiltered and realize

like, why don't I have that kind of joy?

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Or how come I haven't

cried in 10 years, right?

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Like I went through a period of time

where I didn't cry for like 10, 15 years.

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Like I held so much shit in and So I

think in terms of how to start expressing

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that, like, so if there's a model to

me, it's look for examples of like how

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people are doing it in a way that feels

interesting to you, attractive to you.

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Like, Oh, wow.

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Like, look, they seem like they're

able to express what's going on.

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And then I'd like to think of Mr.

211

Rogers, like Mr.

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Rogers is one of my heroes.

213

Um, loved him when I was a kid and he has

this expression of look for the helpers.

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Who are the safe people in your life

that you can just be who you are, who

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aren't going to judge you, they're

just going to be there to help out

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whatever's going on and start, like

I always talk about like start small,

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like share a little bit, reveal a little

bit to test the waters with somebody.

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Like, is it safe for me to tell you that

I'm not sure how I'm feeling right now?

219

But something's going on and

then yes, and then yeah, maybe

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I think I feel a little sad,

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Julie: yeah.

222

Jim: like, just start to, to build

that, that trust with somebody.

223

Julie: You know, I think, obviously,

societally, this is a problem.

224

We need to have more open dialogue around

this, and there is, there's a billboard

225

on a road, so I belong to a farm share

in Rhode Island, and when I, because I

226

live in Rhode Island on the weekends in

the summer, I drive to the farm share,

227

and there's this one roadside, um,

billboard, and it's It's a picture of

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a like you don't see his head You just

see his like neck and his torso and it's

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a guy with a suit on but his shirt's

unbuttoned And you can see some sort of

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like chest hairs like poking out and then

the text on the um billboard is Come in

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and get some things off your big hairy

chest and it is a it's a billboard for

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you know a therapist's office and I just

I I remember seeing it and being like

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this is absolutely Brilliant because

I mean, it's crucial, it's crucial for

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society to challenge and change, the

stereotype that men don't talk about it,

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that it's a stiff upper lip, you have

to be stoic, you can't have feelings,

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and I just wish we would see more of

that, like, how do we get more of that,?

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Jim: I love that example.

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Cause it.

239

It pokes fun at it a little bit, right?

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It brings some levity into something that

feels like it's got a ton of gravity.

241

It's like, Oh my God, therapy.

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It's like, Oh wait, we can kind

of make a little bit of fun of it.

243

And I think to me, that's where

like having comedy in my life.

244

And I loved comedy when I was a kid.

245

And then I realized like, Oh,

that's not going to get me anywhere.

246

I got to be serious and like get

a real job and all that bullshit.

247

And then eventually.

248

It became a part of my life and I bring

it into my life wherever I can because

249

I realize like the work that I do and

I coach guys I coach organizations

250

oftentimes i'm dealing with burnout

and If I just go in totally serious

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and heavy Like, it's too much, right?

252

And it's like, let's, let's recognize,

let's laugh at it a little bit when we

253

can and, you know, get serious when we

need to, but come on, we go around once

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as far as I know, how do we want to do it?

255

Right?

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Do we want to be serious about

the shit that's bothering us?

257

And do we want to actually have

fun as much as we possibly can?

258

Which is one of my core values in life

is to create as much fun as possible.

259

Julie: So when did you, know that

this was what you wanted to do?

260

You wanted to help people with this?

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This stereotype, these intimacy

issues that are causing, it's kind of

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like, I think about as a runner, if

there's something in your footholds

263

that hurts, it's probably coming

from your hip, so a lot of the things

264

that are hurting us, they are the

effects of something else happening.

265

So, how did you decide, this

is what I want to dive into.

266

I want to help people uncover.

267

I have a pain here, but it's

actually coming from here.

268

Jim: um, I had to crawl out of the burnout

crater myself because I had just like

269

crashed and burned by taking so much

on and holding so much in for decades.

270

And then once I got out of that and I

said, okay, I got to go reinvent myself.

271

It took me a few years to recognize that.

272

Like, Oh, what I actually want to do is

help other guys avoid that same fate, or

273

at least, you know, if they didn't avoid

it, help them find a faster way out of it.

274

And that was only a few years ago that I

kind of recognized that my work was like

275

the best, some of the best work that I

could do is what I think a lot of people

276

refer to as the wounded healer work.

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It was like, I know what that's like.

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I know it's objectively terrible.

279

And so.

280

What's the best thing I could do is I

could take the lessons that I learned of

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like what, what got me into that place.

282

And then how did I get out so

that if you know if my trajectory

283

was like this steep dive.

284

Well, how can I flatten that out

for somebody make it a bit easier.

285

And it's super rewarding to me because

I think like, if we look at it on the

286

grand scale, all the things that are

going on in the world, come from stress,

287

they come from violent reactions.

288

If I can make a small dent in that, if

I can help one person, even avoid some

289

of those lash out reactions or whatever,

because they're in so much stress.

290

I've done a great job for myself.

291

And if I can do that with

more people, even better

292

Julie: How do you...

293

I'm very curious to know how you

begin that conversation with somebody.

294

Somebody comes to you and

they're like, I'm burned out, I'm

295

stressed out, I can't do anything.

296

I, I, you know, I'm...

297

They're probably not coming to you

saying, I'm emotionally unavailable

298

and I haven't cried in 15 years.

299

Like, so what is the pulling back

of the onion that you do on that?

300

Because I'm assuming you have

to do it with a little bit of.

301

Ease and be gentle with people.

302

Jim: Yeah.

303

Having done it for a bunch of years

now and work with dozens of guys

304

who've been in those shoes, I've

learned a lot of the nuance there.

305

And there's, you know, I wish that there

was a formula that I could just lay down.

306

Cause honestly, I would

just like write it out.

307

On a LinkedIn post that I would put

up every day and be like, do these

308

five things and you'll be good.

309

It's just not, it's like, we're

too complicated as people and

310

we have too much history and

baggage and beliefs and all that.

311

So I try to approach everybody with,

where they are and just, and just confirm,

312

like validate, like, yeah, like I get, I,

one of the reasons I don't think I'd ever

313

become a therapist, even though my work

tends to be like therapeutic for people.

314

I don't want to do all that schoolwork,

but I also know that for therapists,

315

one of the cardinal rules is you

don't really share any of your story.

316

And I think for men, because we're

so shut down and we don't share with

317

each other, our inner realities

that as a coach, I get to do that.

318

And so oftentimes the way that

I've found that helps guys.

319

Say like, okay, I'm going

to, I'm going to get real.

320

I'm going to be honest here is

to recognize what they're saying.

321

And then say, yeah, I hear you.

322

I had something just like that.

323

Here's what it looked like for me.

324

I put out a podcast about it.

325

I've got a book about it.

326

Like I'm an open book quite literally

so that guys can see , all right,

327

well, I'm not alone in this.

328

And I write in the book a lot about

shame as a factor in how men get

329

into burnout and stay in burnout.

330

And I think that's a huge

thing to acknowledge.

331

And so I'm just like, I'm out front.

332

I'm like, I have shame.

333

It helped me get into burnout.

334

It kept me in burnout and I had

to bust through it to get out.

335

Julie: When I was thinking about

this podcast, , this interview,

336

our conversation together, I,

for some reason, and I don't know

337

why, my mind went to Fight Club.

338

And, probably not the parts

of Fight Club you think.

339

I actually went to the parts of Fight

Club where, Ed Norton's character

340

goes to, groups, like support

groups, because he can't sleep.

341

And when he goes to support groups

when he's there in that environment,

342

then he can go home and he doesn't

have insomnia and he sleeps.

343

And it made me think about another

statistic that I had heard, which

344

is a startling statistic, that the

average adult male only has one friend.

345

Jim: Crushing.

346

Julie: And I'm thinking like, how much

better maybe our lives would be if

347

Not, I'm not saying we have to have

more friends, I know it's, it, it,

348

friendship is a process, but, are there

groups for men, like, are there support

349

groups that are like, this shit is hard,

like, we can at least get in a room

350

together and say this shit is hard.

351

Right.

352

I do think about, I, I, when I

353

Jim: I'm going to start

a men's support group.

354

That's called this shit is hard.

355

Cause it is.

356

Uh, it's so funny.

357

You asked that question.

358

Cause like literally today, the day

we're recording this, I dropped an

359

episode on my podcast that is all about

how men's groups change the trajectory

360

of my life starting 12 years ago, and

I've been involved in multiple of them

361

over the years as a participant, also

as a facilitator, sitting in a circle

362

with other men is millennia old as well.

363

Like we've been doing it since time began.

364

And it's a way for men.

365

To connect in ways that modern

society has told them, like,

366

no, no, no, you go it alone.

367

You're a rugged individual.

368

You don't need any help.

369

You just go do it.

370

And you prove to everybody that you

can do it better than the rest of them.

371

Like that's a disaster waiting to happen.

372

Julie: And so I think you said like in a

circle around fire you stayed together for

373

for protection and for community and so

many of our basic needs I think come from

374

that evolutionary process but our life

is built in a way that pulls us away from

375

those things that allowed us to evolve.

376

I just think it's so I just think it's so

interesting and I have two nephews and.

377

I grew up in a family of women,

like I, it was, like I mentioned,

378

it was, it, it, it goes beyond

just, it was my mom and my Nana.

379

My Nana was one of five girls.

380

My mom was one of two girls.

381

I was one of three girls.

382

My older sister had a daughter,

like there were no boys.

383

And when, when my sister had her first

son, she has two sons, when my sister

384

had her first son, um, You know, 10

years ago, I just remember thinking

385

like, well, this kid's probably going to

be an asshole because he's going to be

386

spoiled because he's the first son in,

387

But then I also thought like

how difficult it must be to

388

raise boys in today's society.

389

Jim: Yeah, I have three kids and

my first kid, um, born female

390

now identifies as non binary.

391

Um, and then I had a son and then I had

a daughter and it was like, I was so

392

comfortable having a daughter first.

393

I was so at ease with that.

394

And then having a son, I was like,

I was unnerved by it because like,

395

I don't really know how to raise.

396

A boy into manhood.

397

Cause I'm still working on that myself.

398

And my dad was not really

part of my life growing up.

399

We have a good relationship, but

he's just never been connected.

400

I didn't see him much as a kid.

401

I didn't have a lot of

strong male role models.

402

I actually never had what I would

consider to be a real male friendship,

403

like a real intimate male friendship.

404

Healthy one until I was like 42,

it was the first time that I had

405

a conversation with another guy, a

friendship with another guy where I

406

could be my real self, I could tell him

what was going on in my life without

407

pretending that everything was fine.

408

And the power of that for me, it just,

I was like, Oh my God, like life.

409

It got so much easier once I started to

be able to relate to other men, because

410

I can relate to women all day long.

411

And I have my improv troupe

is me and five women, right?

412

It's a, it's a fucking

blast and you don't get us.

413

You just can't, you know, you just,

as I can't understand what a woman's

414

experience is actually in the world,

despite knowing so many of them really

415

well, I need other guys who get what it's

like to go through the world as a man,

416

and I need to be able to talk with them.

417

And I do that now regularly

with a bunch of different guys.

418

And I'm glad I'm not part of that

statistic of I only have one male friend.

419

Julie: it's sad.

420

Um, it breaks my heart.

421

Honestly.

422

I mean, there's a lot of statistics about

adult friendship and how the older we

423

get, the less friendships we have and

424

Jim: It affects women too.

425

Yeah.

426

Julie: Yep.

427

Yep.

428

And it affects women too.

429

And that the average adult hasn't made

a new friend in more than five years.

430

And it, it blows me away.

431

It blows me away.

432

And it, and it breaks my

heart on multiple levels.

433

I want, you said something about.

434

Doing a podcast about the

men's group that you joined.

435

And did I hear you correct that

you're creating a men's group or

436

did I just wish that into existence?

437

Cause you're going to do

it now that I said it.

438

I have

439

Jim: You know, it's something that

I've, bandied about for a while.

440

And I was Getting ready

to start one this fall.

441

And then I had another

work project come up.

442

That's taken up a lot of my time.

443

It's a true passion for me

of leading those right now.

444

I'm a member of one that I co

created and we actually don't have

445

a leader where we all lead it.

446

There's about 10 of us.

447

Um, but I'd love like just to drop

some resources in, like if anybody

448

wants to be in a men's group and thinks

that I'd be a great person to lead it.

449

I am, um, let me know, like I have

a deep hunger to do that, but.

450

There's a bunch of resources out there.

451

So anybody who's listening,

like the mankind project is one

452

that a lot of people know about.

453

It's another big organization

called every man it's E V R Y M A N.

454

Um, in the business realm, if you

think about it more from less like

455

the personal side, groups like,,

Vistage or YPO masterminds or.

456

Uh, executive panels, whatever they

call them, those groups often end up

457

being a lot more like a men's circle.

458

Cause a lot of them are men,

and the vulnerability that's

459

allowed in those spaces.

460

I know from experience of talking

to people who've been in those

461

is super healing for them.

462

Um, and then there are people

like me who, you know, private

463

coaches who run their own groups.

464

And there's a bunch of us out there.

465

Um, get in touch with

me if you want to find.

466

I can refer you to some people or if

you want to talk to me about doing

467

one in the way that I do it, you

know, I'm interested in that too.

468

Julie: like one final question.

469

Um, And I don't exactly

know how to phrase it.

470

In the past few years, there's

been a lot of, emphasis on DEI.

471

There's been a lot of emphasis on

making sure that women can excel in

472

the workplace and get paid, their fair

share, get paid what men get paid.

473

And I've heard, and I work

in a male dominated industry.

474

I've worked in architecture and

construction for 17 years, and

475

now the speaking industry is

also a male dominated industry.

476

And I have had some people in my

network say to me, well, I can't

477

get work right now, or it's really

hard to be a white male, or now

478

everything's stacked against me.

479

And, I'd love to know just, how to react

to that because they, because there's

480

something, there's, there's a dichotomy

here of, you have had it so good for

481

so long on a lot of different fronts.

482

But yes, you also were dealing with

these constructs that were really

483

difficult, but it doesn't make it okay

to be mad that I'm getting a fair share

484

now at, at, you know, what should have

been a fair share a long time ago.

485

And I'd love to know your thoughts

behind that because I think there are

486

a lot of white males right now who

are feeling a huge resentment against

487

what's happening in the corporate world.

488

Jim: Yeah, I get it.

489

I actually, one of my long running

projects is I partner up with an

490

organization as a facilitator doing

gender equity programs for corporate.

491

, leaders and most of our men is talking

about how do we balance those scales

492

and there really is a lot of Fear, you

know as layoffs are happening and as the

493

job market is kind of this crazy state

I think it gets really tricky because

494

we're talking about a huge systemic

issue That none of us personally created

495

and yet the reality is White men have

benefited Like, period, end of story.

496

Like, you can't deny the statistics.

497

Like, on the Fortune 500 list

of CEOs, 41 of them are women.

498

60 of them are named John,

James, or Robert or something.

499

Like, we have literally three men's names.

500

That make up more than

the total of women CEOs

501

Julie: Yeah.

502

There's more CEOs named David

David than there are female

503

Jim: Right.

504

So like there's, there's tons of evidence

and at the personal level, when you get

505

down to that guy, who's like, I can't

find an opportunity, it's like, all right,

506

well now I got to break out my empathy.

507

Cause nobody wants anybody to be in

that position where they're feeling

508

like they're struggling or threatened.

509

And when people are struggling

or threatened, they don't,

510

they're certainly not their best.

511

So how do we find ways to support

that person and help them see that

512

this isn't against you personally.

513

It's how the system is rebalancing itself.

514

And that's, that's, I don't

have a perfect answer for that.

515

That's a really, really tough question,

but I think we have to be in dialogue

516

and start to say, yeah, I see you.

517

And I think the other piece of it

is like, there's a, uh, I think

518

it's Simon Sinek is the author.

519

Who's got a book called the infinite game.

520

Julie: Yes, that is exactly right.

521

Jim: Right.

522

And so there's this finite mentality

of well, it's a zero sum game.

523

She got the job.

524

I didn't.

525

The opportunities are going

to people that aren't me.

526

Yeah, okay, well, what are

the other opportunities?

527

When I was in the corporate

world, I only saw this much.

528

I had my head down.

529

And when I finally busted out of that and

I picked my head up and I looked at like,

530

what's actually going on in the world?

531

What are the opportunities

that are really out there?

532

And what do I want that's not about

me climbing a ladder and getting

533

status to be respected or feel like

I've achieved something external?

534

I started to realize like, Oh, there's

a lot of things that I could do.

535

And I don't have to get

the highest paycheck.

536

I don't have to, have the best title

on my social media post job title.

537

I think breaking out of like, what does

success look like for men in this culture?

538

And I know men who have made a shift to

say, you know what, I actually want to be

539

the person who is at home with the kids.

540

Julie: hmm.

541

Jim: Right.

542

So there's, I think there's a lot of

different ways that men can get fulfilled

543

that are not about the standard path

that's been given to them, the playbook

544

that says this is how to be a man.

545

I think if we break out of that

playbook, some of those dynamics of

546

like who gets the opportunities, I

think they start to become a bit easier.

547

Julie: Yeah.

548

I do.

549

I have two friends who, they have

two kids, one with special needs.

550

And so when they looked at their

careers and the trajectory of their

551

careers, he said, I'm going to stay

home and, take care of the kids.

552

And she is the breadwinner.

553

And I think that's such a, that's so

refreshing to see instead of making

554

it like the usual familial roles.

555

Jim: I think that's a real tough guy move.

556

Julie: yeah,

557

Jim: Cause like, I'm willing to

say, yeah, I love my kids so much.

558

I'm going to stay home with them.

559

And my wife is in a better position to be

the provider in our family financially.

560

I'm providing in a different way

and I don't care what you say.

561

Julie: Exactly.

562

Jim: So I love my family more.

563

Julie: Great way to end it, Jim.

564

I love that.

565

I love that.

566

Okay.

567

So, if people want to connect

with you, they can go to the

568

Centered, thecenteredcoach.

569

com, correct?

570

Jim: That's right.

571

That's the best place to find

572

Julie: Okay.

573

And you were also on LinkedIn, which

I would say everybody should go on

574

LinkedIn because you post a lot of great

information on LinkedIn, um, as well.

575

Jim: Yeah.

576

And if you search the centered coach

on LinkedIn, it'll be easier to

577

find me than to look for Jim young.

578

Cause there's a lot of us.

579

Julie: It's like the name Julie Brown,

but there's only one big one on,

580

Jim: That's only one.

581

We know that.

582

Julie: um, this was so great.

583

Thank you so much for coming on.

584

Jim: Yeah.

585

Thanks so much for having me, Julie.

586

It can be easy to think

that men have it easy.

587

And in a lot of ways.

588

Yes, they do have it easier than women,

but just because the societal expectations

589

on and constructs for them are different.

590

It doesn't mean that they have

it easier in every single way.

591

I'd like to encourage anyone listening,

especially men and maybe even myself.

592

To recognize that showing vulnerability

and seeking help is a sign of

593

strength, not a sign of weakness.

594

It may take time.

595

And effort.

596

And practice.

597

And maybe even a coach like Jim to help.

598

But wouldn't it be freeing to break

free from the constraints of traditional

599

masculinity and start embracing our

emotions without the fear of judgment.

600

Or maybe it's not even

the fear of judgment.

601

It's the ability to not give a

fuck if someone judges you for it,

602

because you know, it's better for

you and your overall health and

603

well being than the alternative.

604

I like how Jim gave us the

permission to start small.

605

Start small by saying.

606

Simply to someone I'm struggling

today, or today is hard.

607

Or this thing I'm dealing with is a lot.

608

Even if it's in slow.

609

Drips to start getting that shit.

610

Out of your mind.

611

And out of your body.

612

Like that billboard said start getting

that shit off your big, hairy chest.

613

Okay.

614

Now onto the drink of the

week, which for fuck sake.

615

I don't know why, but I didn't expect to

find so many websites dedicated to lists.

616

Like this quote.

617

Manly cocktails to order at the

bar, how to look manly at the bar.

618

What is the most manliest cocktail?

619

I mean, it's fucking ridiculous.

620

I actually found an article.

621

Uh, describing what manly car

cocktails are and are not, here's what

622

it said in case you're interested.

623

This is direct quote.

624

What makes a cocktail

manly and manly cocktail?

625

Shouldn't be overly sweet.

626

And mainly cocktail never employs a straw.

627

A manly drink is never blue, green,

pink, or purple, but most of all,

628

Uh, manly cocktail hits the palate

sharply with either potent alcohol,

629

strong sourness, powerful bitterness,

or a combination of the three.

630

It challenges the taste

buds and burns the throat.

631

That's why they are rarely

loved by first time drinkers.

632

Well for fuck's sake, give me a break.

633

This particular article listed the

seven manliest cocktails as, and

634

these are ones I drank like a lot,

like this is ridiculous, I guess.

635

I guess I'm fucking manly.

636

Here we go.

637

Dirty martini old-fashioned classic

Manhattan, rusty nail sidecar,

638

straight absent, and a drink called the

godfather, which I had never had before.

639

Well, I'm not going to

do any of those drinks.

640

I've already highlighted a few of

those, but I'm not going to do any

641

one of those because like it's,

this article was fucking ridiculous.

642

I was however, intrigued by a cocktail

that I found in none other than garden.

643

And gun magazine.

644

I know I had never heard of it either.

645

But the cocktail is called the third man.

646

Cocktail.

647

The third man was

648

New R film of the same name written

by Graham green and starting

649

Joseph Cotton and Orson Wells.

650

I just kind of liked that the

magazine was called garden and gun.

651

Like, would think that those are two

male and feminine constructs and like

652

that's the name of the magazine was so

that's what drew me to this cocktail.

653

All right.

654

Anyways, third man cocktail.

655

Here's what you're gonna need.

656

They call for Bellmead bourbon.

657

I've never had Bellmead bourbon.

658

I don't know how it tastes.

659

So I'm going to say just

an ounce and a half.

660

Of bourbon.

661

One ounce of grapefruit three fourths,

ounce of lemon juice three forests, ounce

662

of campari and a half ounce of simple

syrup shake all ingredients with ice

663

until chilled strain over fresh ice in

a rocks glass and then garnished With

664

a grapefruit twist All right friends.

665

That's all for this week if you like

what you I Heard today please leave

666

a review and subscribe to the podcast

also So please remember to share the

667

podcast to help reach a larger audience

if you want more julie brown you find

668

my book this shit works on amazon and

barnes and noble you can find me on

669

linkedin at julie brown bd just let me

know where you found me when you reach

670

out i'm julie brown underscore bd on the

instagram or as always just pop on over

671

to my website julie brown bd.com for lots

more information until next week cheers

672

Hey, thanks for taking the time to listen.

673

Be sure to subscribe to the

podcast so you never miss a tip.

674

And remember, you can unapologetically

be who you authentically are

675

and still be wildly successful.

676

That's a fact.

677

See you next week on This Shit Works.