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Welcome to this week in Health It where we amplify great thinking to Propel Healthcare forward. My name is Bill Russell Healthcare cio, coach and creator of this week in Health. It a set of podcast videos and collaboration events dedicated to developing the next generation of health leaders. This episode and every episode since we started the Covid to 19 series has been sponsored by Sirius Healthcare.

Now we are exiting the series, and Sirius has stepped out to be a weekly sponsor of the show through the end of the year. Special thanks to Sirius for supporting the show's efforts during the crisis and beyond. I. Today we are joined by Judy Kirby, who is the CEO of Kirby Partners, which is an executive, executive recruiting firm.

Really a retained search for firm that places leaders in health, IT and cybersecurity. I've known Judy for a long time. She has been doing this, uh, for a couple decades now. So she has great wisdom and insight into the process and what it takes to find the role you're looking for. So I, I enjoyed the conversation.

I hope you enjoyed it as well. Today we're joined by Judy Kirby, CEO of Kirby Partners and executive recruiting firm that specializes in leadership roles for healthcare, IT and cybersecurity. And as is usually the case, Judy, the lawnmowers coming by my window right now as we start the, uh, the podcast.

Welcome to the show. Thank you very much, bill. Thank you for having me. You know it, it never fails. It's like you, you start the podcast and they come by with, with the heavy machinery right outside your window. Where, where are you working? Are, are you in the office yet or are you still working from home?

Actually, I have been working from the office virtually the entire time. We are in a three story office building and right now there are only two offices where people are coming in, so it's been really great and we. Distance ourselves in the office, which is one of the reasons I can't do a video today.

So I apologize for that. Yeah, no problem. Well, people are looking at the best image we could find of you. That's what we're gonna be, uh, superimposing here. What I, what I wanted to do today is, you know, for some people this whole retained search thing is a, is a mystery, and so I wanna shed some light on that and then some questions around that.

I've gone through the process. And, you know, just some questions about gaps in time between things, how to get your resume ready, those kind of things. But also, you know, just wanna talk about, I, I've, I've coached some people, you, this is a service you offer, you coach people. There's a lot of questions I think people have with regard to either getting ready for an interview, getting ready in their career for the next step and those kind of things.

So I just wanted run through some of those things with you. If you're ready. If you're ready to go. Absolutely. So what does an executive search firm do? We'll start with the, the broad question. Well, organizations hire us because they have a problem, and our goal is to solve their problem. And that problem really involves leadership in their technology or cyber cybersecurity arenas.

And we serve as a trusted advisor to really help them define and plan their hiring strategies for those critical roles. But most importantly, we listen and give counsel. It's interesting. I've seen one of those, what do you guys call 'em? Like the, the, the job description. The, it's not a job description, it's like a binder that you give that talks about, you know, the, the area and all those things.

What, what do you guys call those things? We call them white papers of position briefs, position briefs. And they're pretty extensive. I mean, you're, you interview a lot of people to make sure that you can communicate in both directions. Uh, what do you usually put in one of those briefs? We put in a lot about the organization.

We do a lot with the area because it's not just the opportunity, it's normally, or at least in the past, about relocating, you know, to be part of the team. Who knows what the future's gonna bring around relocation in this crazy environment we're in right now. But it also talks about. Success factors, challenges, what they're really looking in that opportunity.

And what we try to do is really dig deep. We were working with one organization and they were replacing a 20 year employee in their CIO role and in the first site visit they said, we want somebody just like that. We ended up doing an assessment of what the organization felt they really needed. The CEO turned 180 degrees on what he wanted, and it was amazing with a different CIO what it has been able to do for the success of the organization.

So helping organizations understand the impact the right person can have is a critical part of what we do. Well, I mean, the location makes a a huge difference. I've seen some searches you guys do. For some pretty remote health systems, especially with cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is, is sort of a different animal altogether in that the pool of of resources is not as vast as people who generally want to be leaders within health.

it, and then you have to find people who want to move to, I don't know, Myrtle Beach or something to that effect. I mean, that, that's a, that's a pretty challenging lift, isn't it? It's. But everybody likes someplace different. You know, there are people who say, find me something in New York City, and other people say, I'll never go to a city area.

I want a small rural area. So every organization is different. Every person in their desires are different. So there's normally somebody for every position, we just have to get out there and find them. So I, it's, it's interesting. Let's talk about the process a little bit. I, I've seen you at himss, I've seen you at Chime.

You, you take an awful lot of meetings. I assume that's so that you, you know, the people so that when somebody comes to you and says, Hey, look, we need, we need somebody for a rural location. You're like, Hey, I know off the top of my head, I know a handful of people that are very interested in a rural location.

I mean, how do you approach this? What does the, what does the process look like? I guess we'll start with what's the process look like for you to get engaged with the health system, and then what's the process to find a pool of candidates? Well, normally organizations will call us and several other firms and try to find the right partner for them that fits, and then we help them understand what success this position is going to look like.

Skills are the easy part. The real important part is finding an individual who will really mesh with their mission, their value, and the personality of the organization. And with that being said, we work with organizations to ensure that they're really considering a diverse slate of candidates so they can really benefit from the, you know, the different perspective and experiences once we've got that defined written position brief.

We look for those individual individuals, sorry, who are both qualified and interested, and we evaluate and screen them and narrow it to a slate of candidates so that we can present those who really closely fit with the organizational profile. I'm sure there's listeners out there right now who are saying, you know, why have I never gotten a phone call from you?

I mean, I'm, I'm a, you know, I'm the next. A good CIO for a health system. I'm in a, a number two position at a health system. How, why are they not getting a call? How do they sort of get into that, that, that flow of, of communication to know about the next position and to be contacted when it becomes available?

Well, we do our as much due diligence as we can, trying to find every individual out there in certain positions and meet them and know them. We don't know everybody. We try and, you know, we'll keep going until we do, but obviously there are some of us who work exclusively in healthcare and if those individuals are looking for opportunities or just wanna talk about their career, reach out to executive search firms, make that relationship schedule some time to meet Chime or hymns.

We ever have those in person again. If not, reach out and just have a conversation with them. Get to know them and have them know you. That's the important part. Yeah. At the CHIME meeting, you generally have a breakout session that's that's available for people and, and I've attended, I attended one of those.

It was really, actually. Fascinating. 'cause you guys really handled it well in terms of, it was both allowing people who were more senior in that room to talk about, you know, how they progressed through their career and, and, and those kind things. But then you had junior people in that room as well that you, uh, gave a voice to.

How do you, uh, again, what are, what are, so Chime was an interesting one and I think we will be meeting again.

Are there other ways that, that people get into that flow? Absolutely. Just reach out and talk. Just, you know, just, just reach out. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Reach out for LinkedIn, you know, call an organization. Say, you know, I just need some time. I wanna talk. Most organizations are perfectly willing to spend the time getting to know you and giving you counsel.

Yeah. And you and you guys post on LinkedIn. I, I've seen your posts out there. So that's another way that people can just. Let's, let's talk about the resume a little bit. How important. You know, bill, I would say that if you're good at what you do, you're not gonna be looking for a job that often. So resume writing is not really a skill that most people use on a regular basis, and unfortunately, most people are never taught how to write a resume.

It's going to stand out and get them interviews and arguably, this is probably the most important piece of paper you will ever own and done right, can open doors for you. Done wrong and your resume will probably end up into the infamous HR black hole. And you know, for those that hire, you know, think of all the horrible resumes you've had to call through, where you normally take 40 to 30 seconds to scan it.

And if nothing stands out where it's confusing and cluttered, you done with may actually not get a position for which you'd be an amazing fit. Yeah, I, I don't think I've written my, my resume has been done by somebody else. Probably, I think about 20 years ago was the last time I wrote a resume. And, uh, I, I found the, the process to be extremely valuable.

And the process is essentially they, they're asking you about each one of your roles and your experience, and they're saying, what did you do? What was, what was the value you brought to the organiz? They were just asking me these questions. It's interesting what they pulled out versus what I probably would've written on a piece of paper.

Were very different. Why? Why do you think that is? 'cause they're looking at it from a different perspective than you are. You're so close to it. And when we help someone with a resume, we don't write it for them. We ask them the questions and we get them thinking about what they wanna do next. I think that's the key, is where do you wanna go?

And tailoring your resume to that next position and looking forward to what would an organization wanna see that I've done and putting those things in. And I think one of the biggest things is individuals don't qualify. A lot of times their work except, you know, session looks like they swallowed a job description.

Rather than how well they do it. So if you've managed 50 people, that tells me nothing. You know, did you reduce turnover? Did you increase cus, you know, employee satisfaction? Did you encourage the team to grow and have people get master's degrees and get promoted? That's what makes you stand out.

Here's what it was, and that's a crucial part to making your resume stand out. Well, it's, uh, so mistakes people make. So in healthcare it's interesting because you have very well educated people, so they'll have, uh, they'll have papers they've written, they'll have places they've spoken, they'll have experience over the years.

Um, do you have a rule of thumb for, uh, how long a resume should be? I've seen eight page resumes. Record from ACMI that 30.

Try to fit it on two pages. What in, in technology, what you've done even five to 10 years ago, become so irrelevant with the changes. Make them real short. You never wanna leave anything off your resume of what you've done, but what you did there isn't as important as what you're doing now. Concentrate on your last, you know, five to 10 years.

It was interesting. The, you know, questions to me is like, all right, what's the one statement about you? Okay. Innovative, CIO, that you know, that leans into, you know, progressive ideas and delivers results for the organization. They say, great. All right, that's your, that's your phrase, but they don't care what your phrase is.

That's your phrase. Great. Let's talk about your experience, and so as you're talking about your experience. Everything should sort of demonstrate innovative CIO that leans into, you know, forward thinking, uh, that delivers results. It should communicate what you want to communicate. It is, it's almost a sales document, isn't it?

I mean, it's, it, nobody looks at the resume and says, this is the person they're hired. They go, this is the person put them in the pool of candidates. So it, it is almost a sales document that don't get to really support. You don't get to talk through.

It's, and it has to stand by itself to get you to that next level with whomever, whether it's a executive search firm or whether it's, you know, you're submitting it yourself. It has to stand on its own as showing value and showing intrigue of why they would want to talk to you and have you explain how you.

All right, so any, do do, any of these creative, you know, some people said, well, I send a video in, or I send a, you know, infographic in, or I send a whatever I'm d Does any of that stuff work or not at the executive level? I think it may work in some verticals. If you're in a very creative type of environment, yes, it may, if you're a Google, it May.

Healthcare is very. Tends to do the same things the same way. I'm not sure that it really works. Yeah. Alright, let's talk about the interview process. You and I actually were talking a little bit about this before, uh, we got on the line, and I think people have a lot of questions about the interview process.

You know, is I, I mean there's the questions of what are people looking for, but is there a way I can prepare.

Is there something like research that you tell people that to do or to prepare? Do you tell them to, I know. Do you tell them to do practice interviews? What?

We coach 'em a lot when we're working with them, either as a candidate or a coaching client, because the video interview can either make it or break it for you. And now interviews, video interviews have become the norm and very few, few people have experienced to really do those well. Everything from, and I know I commented on your amazing background to.

Clutter to some people having animals jump up on the desk in front of them. But it, it all comes down to you've gotta do your research both on how to do an interview well and on the organization, on the position. You've got to make sure that you can highlight in your background what they wanna hear, but you also have to practice a video interview you have.

Make sure. The platform they're using, that your bandwidth is enough, that it's not gonna hang up. These things are so important, and as you and I were talking about first impressions, and if you're late because you couldn't get your video working and you're in technology, that's speaks volumes. So you really wanna practice with somebody, record yourself, look at it, look for tells, look for, you know.

Preparation is abso absolutely the key to success for video interviews. I, I think the, you know, on, on average when I've gone to ACIO series of interviews, generally it's, it's over two visits and there are, I don't know, anytime you travel to the location, there's probably, at least, I think the minimum I've spoken to is about six.

Generally, you're talking to a fair number of people every time you visit. I mean, is there, is there a different approach if you're talking to ACFO versus ACEO versus a, you know, president in charge of the physician group and I mean, or, or are you trying to just communicate the, the same, same thing as you get in front of those different constituents?

Absolutely not. ACFO is going have very different interest in what you can do for him or her versus the cm O. Or somebody else. So you wanna tailor what you can do to give examples of how you've been successful dealing with concerns the CFO has or concerns the CMO has or can C concerns. The CO has tailor success factors and be able to tell.

Organizations interview, they're looking for somebody to solve that problem, as I mentioned earlier. And the best indicator of whether you can solve a problem is how you've solved them in the past. So think through how to tell stories. Yeah, that's One of my friends always says the past performance is the best indicator of future results.

So. I love the fact that you're talking about telling a story. This is one of the things, um, that not in the interview process is so important to be able to tell a story, uh, to creatively demonstrate what you've done. But I, it's also a skill that I'm talking to CIOs about. So I coach CIOs and one of the things we talk about is.

The ability to tell a story around whatever the next initiative is. In order to get funding, you have to be able to articulate, you know, and generally what we've done before is we've gone in and said, Hey, there's this problem. Here's our solution, here's what we're gonna do. And that's not as effective as saying.

Hey, look, you know, let me tell you the story of this patient and this patient, blah, blah, blah. And they ran into this challenge. Here's how this would've looked if we had put something like this in place. There. We respond to stories so much better than bullet points, I think. And, you know, and, and so when we're getting ready for, for interviews, we've gotta be able to really package up who we are in a, in a, in a good set of stories.

Any mistakes that people make in interviews. Oh, the number is so great. . Should I tell it? Should I just tell my stories of the mistakes I've made in interviews? I think the number one mistake bill that I hear is people not being succinct and somebody will say, tell me about your career. And what you wanna do is you had that elevator pitch.

You wanna be able to tell a very short elevator pitch in about two minutes. We've had people who've rambled on for 15 minutes, you know, starting back when they were born in a log cabin in, you know, in Illinois, rather than being able to articulate the value of what their career has gotten them. To this point, it'll benefit the organization because the organization is looking for the benefit you're gonna bring, and you've gotta be able to articulate that benefit.

You know, as we talked about through stories. And you can normally figure out what questions are gonna be asked. You've interviewed enough people, you've been interviewed enough over your career, you can prepare by thinking through, what would I ask me if I were interviewing me for this position? And then think about the stories that you wanna tell along those lines.

That's the key part. Yeah. And you're, you're the, you're my best friend. If you're, if you're the executive search firm that's bringing me in, you're my best friend. 'cause you're gonna, you're gonna say, Hey, look, here are the people you're interviewing with. The reason they're going out to search is because, you know, they're replacing a 20 year CIO or they're replacing somebody who, who had to move on because of a challenge that they were facing.

When, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna gimme all sorts of clues. I mean, you want me to be successful in the interview, so you're gonna, you know, you're gonna coach me as I go in, and I assume that people really take advantage of that.

Absolutely they do. And you know, we want to help you be the best you can be during that interview. But it's amazing you get into this interview and you get nervous because you haven't done it. And everything that we have suggested you do sort of goes out the window. We were doing ACIO search search for Sharp, and we gotta sit in on all the first rounds of interviews and it was amazing to really sit in and watch these.

And this was just, you know, in January. So it was really amazing to sit in and watch and see where we had coached people, where they had listened and where we should have coached some more. 'cause of what came out, you know, during the interviews. So I think it's just really listening and helping individuals be the best they can be.

Yeah, I, I can imagine. So, I mean, you talked about video. What else has changed during the pandemic in terms of this process? We have had at least eight individuals who have accepted positions and relocated or taken virtual jobs for now who have never met anybody in the organization. Never seen it face to face, and we had one, we were doing the chief privacy officer for Geisinger, and the individual had never been to Danville.

Bought a house and moved there totally virtually through real estate tours and everything else. So that's entirely a new paradigm that we have not had to address before and it's tough. Interesting. Have, have the requirements changed have of what people are looking for in leaders as a result of the pandemic?

No, but they're being more cautious in hiring. You know, I think a lot of the financials have to do with it. I think knowing that they can't make a mistake or don't wanna make a mistake now, it's too important. So I think they're more cautious and I think individuals are more cautious. But with that being said, you're seeing a lot more people who are applying for positions now than we've seen in a long time.

Really? That's, that's surprising to me. I mean, do you have, do you have, uh, speculation as to why that is? There are a lot of people who have been furloughed or lost their job. We're doing one right now where we're looking for, um, a director, senior director of analytics, and we've had people from outside the industry, people from high levels in banking, VPs of huge organizations who've lost their job and

because.

It's, it's a crazy environment out there. Or they're afraid they're going to lose their job with downsizing and mergers and acquisitions. Yeah, and I think we've seen two. We, we keep seeing mergers, cone health and, uh, just came together. I, I've spoken to healthcare leaders and I've gone through the process, as I've said, you know, sometimes there's things that we sort of sit back and go, what is going so long?

Pauses in between the interview and the time you hear back. I mean, what's typically happening during those pauses? A lot of times we have fin a final interview going on and the organization for the three candidates who are interviewing give us a four week period over which those interviews are gonna take place.

So if you're first, you're waiting a long time to get in. And then we, we try to really counsel the organization the minute we start. We say we want the times for the first interviews, the second interviews, and meeting on the decision. To be scheduled on your calendar. Sometimes they're really good and listen to us.

Other times they say, well, we'll do it as we get along. Academics, as you can imagine, are the worst, trying to get people on calendars, and then a lot of times they'll have to reschedule because something more important comes up. Or something they perceive as more important comes up. So organizations really take a long time.

We try to keep people informed as best we can, but sometimes it's very embarrassing for us and we feel badly when we're saying we're not hearing back from the organization on which way they wanna go and we can't do anything to hurry him up. We try, but sometimes they just take too long. So I, and this might be just a specific challenge that I had, so the, when, when I left St.

Joe's, I did interview for a job. I ended up coming in in second, which is, you know, there's no, there's no runaround prize. You don't get a check, you don't get anything. It was interesting in the interview process because there was this long extended period and it was kind of, kind of interesting. And then I heard through the grapevine essentially that they were offering the job to somebody else.

And so I, I called the recruiter and I said, are, are they just keeping me on the hook in case the negotiations don't go well? And you could tell I sort of caught him off guard and, you know, if, if you're well connected in the industry, you can find things like this out. And he just said, yeah. That's exactly what's going on right now.

I mean, is that a, is that a normal process that they, they have like a, a backup candidate that they're, they're not communicating with so that they get their candidate?

Absolutely. And we will say, are you ready for us to let this person know? They're no longer in consideration? And sometimes they'll say, yes, we are. And other times they'll say, no, let's just keep 'em, you know, in our back pocket in case these negotiations don't go well. So yes, that is common to do, and again, we're trying to do what our client wants, but trying to be as transparent and informative to the candidates as we are allowed to be.

I think that's one of the things that people mistake your client is the health system. They're the ones who are paying you. They're the ones, and, and so you get such a close relationship with the candidate I think sometimes that they feel like you're representing them and, and in some ways you do represent 'em, but you work for the health system.

Exactly. Um, and, and, and it's tough. But we try to again, be as transparent and honest with everyone as we can through the process. And we have one client where we're scheduled to do a presentation of candidates at the end of next week, and we called them last Friday and said, we've got an amazing individual who's interviewing elsewhere would like to go outside our norm of presenting this slate and present this person.

So that you can at least talk to them. So that's where we do represent candidates a little differently and sort of push the client because we feel this individual would be amazing on their team. You know, one of the questions I ask just is around female leaders. So is there any special words for female leaders in health?

IT who, who are aspiring to executive roles when a position is open? There's been a study that men will apply for it if they meet about 50% of the criteria. Women wait to apply for it until they reach virtually a hundred percent. They wanna make sure they can do the job, where I think they may be a little less risk adverse where males are, I can do this.

I've got 50% of the skills. So I think I would counsel them to really look at where. You are applying and are there positions that might be a stretch, but you could really sell your ability to go in there and be successful. I think that would be my primary counsel for them, but I think women are doing a better job of, of taking, you know, going to chime bootcamp and getting master's degrees and really deciding where they wanna go and how to get there and doing it.

So hopefully they'll continue along that. Yeah, it's, I, I'm, uh, I have a coaching client that is, uh, a, a female executive in a health tech startup. And it's, and, and she's not at the CEO or CIO level. She's one step below that. And it's, it's been eye-opening for me to just hear the stories and to hear what she, uh, faces just in terms of, you know, just challenges that I, it's just, I'm just, I might be ignorant of, I just didn't recognize.

They existed. Everything from, you know, essentially being the only woman in a room full of engineers and technicians, which has its own challenges, uh, to not being, potentially not feeling like they're ready for the next role. I, I mean, I think I've told her like half dozen times she's ready for the next role.

She's, she's got all the skills. She's got, let's say it this way, she has as many skills as everybody else is, is gonna.

You just have to take that. You have to take that step and it's confidence and it's, you know, building your confidence and looking around and saying, yeah, I can do that too. Because I think, you know, again, as I said, I think sometimes women are more reluctant to step up and say what they think and, you know, have that fear of.

Being rejected, but you have to be rejected along the way to get to where you wanna be. So just keep plugging away and keep going for those positions. And I think, you know, we're seeing more and more female CIOs, we're seeing more and more female CEOs, so I'm really happy that we're making progress. We still have a lot of progress to make, but you know.

What services and how people can contact you. But I, I wanted to hit on cybersecurity real quick. I mean, what are you seeing in cybersecurity right now? Is there, is there still a not as big of a pool of candidates as we would like? There's a good pool of candidates, but a lot of 'em are outside of healthcare because healthcare has been so late to the game in, in cybersecurity.

So I think that's the biggest challenge. And I think also healthcare's not sure where this position should be report or what it should be like. And it's very different across organizations. That's fascinating. So, so we should maybe adjust our. Expectations of what we're gonna pay for a, a high-end chief information security officer, or chief security officer for a health system.

And, and we really need to think of how they, how they report into the organization. I know that our, our chief information security officer and chief security officer did not report to me as the CIO and that was my doing by the way. When I came in, it did report to me and I broke it out and we hired a phenomenal.

Chief Security Officer, and I think part of it was, you know, they got to do presentations directly to the board. They, you know, and we worked very closely together, but they were on par with the CIO within the organization. And given the, the visibility of security, I'm not, it, that still feels right to me.

Is that, is that, is that what you're seeing? Not enough. And a lot of people who wanna come into healthcare from outside are looking at reporting structure. But I think again, it's the level of the position. And organizations, they say, well, you know, we look at parity internally and we can't pay a person that much because of the level they are.

And all I can say to them is, look, what'll cost you with a breach? Look at what'll.

Feeling about your organization. Organization, you know, your image, but yet they, healthcare still doesn't see how important it's, yeah, and I think that's good. It is just gonna continue to evolve. What kind of, what kind of services, what kind of things, uh, are you, uh, offering at, at this point? Are you, you're helping people with their resume, you're helping people with interviews.

You are, you're doing, I mean, what, what services are you guys doing? Well, we've started a whole coaching series, you know, to help people with their career. Everything from, you know, sort of talking about what do you wanna be when you grow up, and really looking at where those gaps are in skills to get you to where you wanna be, to interviewing, to salary negotiation, to resume writing, just anything along.

We had somebody who called us and said an interview. I need to do interviewing, you know, can you do it? So we were able to fit him in that week because he really needed it to move ahead. He hadn't interviewed quite some time. So we do offer that full range of services and, and that's come about in, in just a very short time because we felt the need for it, that there is such a gap between what.

systems, looking at the cybersecurity roles and reevaluating what it's worth. You know, I, I had my resume rewritten all those years ago and a couple times since then, I think it's like a couple hundred bucks for me to have somebody rewrite it. And in the scheme of things, the, you know, when you look at what an annual salary is, that was, that was really nothing.

And to have coaching on an interview. Is is invaluable if you get the role right? I mean, these, these are the investments we make in ourselves. And, you know, to an individual who's out of work, it might feel like, hey, you know, a thousand or so dollars is a lot, but if, if it helps you to land that job, it, it really is one of those, you know, MasterCard moments where it's, where it's priceless.

I think it, it all comes down to Bill building their confidence. And getting them to think of the value they bring. You know, all too often we know we're good at what we do, but we don't realize how good we are. And if somebody helps you pull out and you look and say, yeah, you know, I'm really good at that.

That translates into the resume. It translates into the interview. It, it translates into how you present yourself. Judy, we've been trying to do this, this podcast since I started, and this is episode like 293 , so it's, I am.

It has taken a while and I'm not, so I'm surprised why I just, the timing's just never been right. So I really appreciate your tenacity on this. Yeah. And, and I appreciate you taking the time, uh, to come on. We will have to make it a more regular occurrence. I will continue, continue to, to hound you via email in other ways, and we'll do this again next year.

Please do. I look forward to it. Bill. You know, that's one of the things I miss about not having conferences. It's, it's running into those people in the industry that you just haven't seen in a while that you just love catching up with. I really appreciate Judy and the work that she does and the, uh, friendship that we've been able to, uh, strike up over the years.

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