Mustard or ketchup? Which camp are you in? Or are you some sort of envoy between the camps?

We're talking about mustard and ketchup, a culinary showdown in many North American homes.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, authors of three-dozen cookbooks (and counting). We've developed over ten thousand original recipes in our career. And we've been contributing editors for old-school publications like EATING WELL and COOKING LIGHT.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[00:46] Our one-minute cooking tip: Make ketchup more interesting by spicing it with five-spice powder, prepared horseradish, tamari sauce, or another savory condiment.

[02:20] Our mustard-ketchup showdown! We're talking about our personal histories with these condiments as well as their cultural history. Which camp are you in?

[19:29] What’s making us happy in food this week: lemon-pear oat cookies and kasha varnishkes.

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein, and this is the podcast

2

cooking with Bruce and Mark.

3

Mark: And I'm Mark Scarborough, Bruce,

we have written 40 books, 36 cookbooks,

4

knitting books, I wrote a memoir.

5

We're all over the place, and we're

just getting started because we are

6

in the process of editing a book.

7

Editorial for our 37th book,

which is actually related to

8

what this podcast is about.

9

Although we're not going to

really talk about it instead.

10

We've got a one minute cooking tip.

11

Then we're going to talk about ketchup and

mustard as a kind of culinary showdown.

12

It is in many houses and

it kind of is in ours.

13

And we'll tell you what's making

us happy in food this week.

14

So let's get started.

15

Bruce: Make your ketchup more interesting.

16

by flavoring it up.

17

You could add a pinch of five

spice powder, some curry powder,

18

a dash or two of hot sauce or a

teaspoon or two of horseradish.

19

It's all it takes.

20

Maybe even a little bottle of

teriyaki sauce, a little soy sauce.

21

Make your ketchup more interesting.

22

So you're talking about writing.

23

Mark: Wait, wait, wait.

24

Um, so the writer's gonna

want to know the process.

25

So you're talking about putting some

ketchup in a little bowl and then it.

26

Adding a little curry powder,

five spice powder, don't put it

27

Bruce: in the jar because then you're

horseradish, then you're flavoring

28

the whole bottle and it's better

just to do a little bit as you need.

29

Mark: Well, let's see.

30

The writer wants accuracy in process.

31

I did, but I wanted to make sure

everyone understood what you

32

meant doing for a long time.

33

Everybody does.

34

Yes.

35

The writer wants accuracy and process.

36

Okay, so that's about making ketchup

better, and we're gonna now talk

37

about, in fact, ketchup and mustard.

38

It's a longer story than you might

be able to imagine, and it is

39

in fact a debate in many houses.

40

We'll talk about that.

41

But before we do, let me just say,

it would be great if you could rate

42

and even write a small review of this

podcast on whatever platform you find

43

us on, whether that be on Audible or.

44

on Apple podcast.

45

I know you can't write a review on

Spotify, but wherever you are, if you

46

could just even say nice podcast, that

helps us with the algorithms and the law,

47

that kind of mess that we worry about.

48

And it's a good way for you to support

our otherwise unsupported podcast.

49

I'll say it.

50

Bruce: Nice podcast.

51

Mark: Yeah, there you go.

52

Nice podcast.

53

So next, the great showdown

between ketchup and mustard.

54

Bruce: When we have hot dogs in our house.

55

One of us, not me, always

reaches for the mystery.

56

Okay, so I'm

57

Mark: going to stop right here.

58

I always have to stop you.

59

You too.

60

I never get a word in.

61

I know.

62

I'm sorry.

63

But I think this is really kind of funny

because I think that a lot of people, if

64

they knew about us, they know that, you

know, I'm from a Christian background,

65

and you're from a Jewish background.

66

And I think they would.

67

assume that the Christian

reaches for the ketchup and the

68

Jew reaches for the mustard.

69

But in fact, it's the

opposite at our house.

70

Bruce: My parents always put mustard on

hot dogs, but I reach for the ketchup.

71

Mark reaches for the mustard,

as does 71 percent of Americans,

72

according to a Harris poll.

73

You mean

74

Mark: 71 percent of Americans

reach for mustard with hot dogs?

75

They do.

76

Okay, I have to tell you that I cannot.

77

Tolerate Ketchup on hot dogs.

78

It grosses me out.

79

Bruce: Oh, I was watching

it interview the other day

80

Mark: get it

81

Bruce: Somebody was interviewing

Barack Obama from years ago when he was

82

still living in Illinois and running

for you know And someone said, would

83

you ever allow ketchup on a hot dog?

84

And he's like, no way.

85

That should be, he even

said that should be illegal.

86

Oh, there you go.

87

Illegal.

88

Mark: Well, there's

government overreach for you.

89

Uh, I just, it's hot

dogs are kind of sweet.

90

And the buns are always super

sweet, and then there's ketchup.

91

Bruce: But they're salty, and it's the

sweet of the ketchup with the salt.

92

Look, I even like to put ketchup

on a corned beef sandwich.

93

Yeah, you even

94

Mark: put

95

Bruce: ketchup on eggs.

96

Oh, ketchup is so good on eggs.

97

Well, I will tell you that The

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

98

Wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

99

Mark: wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

Who, who, who, who is hired for the

100

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council?

101

What is that interview like?

102

Bruce: It's

103

Mark: What, what, and let me

go a little further with that

104

since I want to try to do this.

105

What is their third Thursday at 2 p.

106

m.

107

like if you work for the National

Hot Dog and Sausage Council?

108

Bruce: I don't know, but there is a

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

109

Mark: It's, that's not, it's

like, it's, it's, it's, it's

110

apartment 3G in New York City.

111

That's not a real thing.

112

Okay.

113

Bruce: And today, this council has

publicly stated their disapproval

114

of adults using ketchup on hot dogs.

115

Oh, wait a minute.

116

Now, I want to interview.

117

Yeah, I want to interview with the

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

118

Look, I, look, my parents did put

mustard on hot dogs, but Pretty

119

much, I grew up in a ketchup family.

120

Look, there was always

ketchup on the table.

121

It's

122

Mark: so funny that the

Weinsteins are a ketchup family.

123

Bruce: When my, when my dad would

grill steaks, the ketchup would come

124

out because I liked ketchup on it.

125

When hamburgers came out,

the ketchup came out.

126

And when I stayed at my

grandparent's, alright, my mother's

127

father, Joe, he Loved ketchup.

128

He put it, he dipped

green beans in ketchup.

129

No!

130

He put ketchup, he's the one who

taught me about ketchup and eggs.

131

And my grandma Rose, I've said this

before in this podcast, her big culinary

132

delight she would make for me are

noodles with cream cheese and ketchup.

133

Oh man.

134

And it would melt into like So goes the

mythology of the great Jewish cooks.

135

Oh no, she wasn't a very good cook.

136

But she made that lakshmi with cream

cheese and it was like a creamy tomato

137

sauce because she added ketchup.

138

Mark: Oh!

139

Just Okay, so in my house.

140

If you started to put ketchup on

a hot dog, I'm serious about this,

141

my mother would stop us if, let's

say, my brother or I were beginning

142

to put ketchup on a hot dog.

143

Well, a hamburger, we wouldn't,

but okay, let's pretend we

144

were putting it on a hamburger.

145

She would stop us and she would

always have the same sentence.

146

She would say, I raised

you better than that,

147

Bruce: but you'd still

be allowed to use it.

148

Mark: Wouldn't

149

Bruce: you?

150

Mark: I raised you better than that.

151

Okay.

152

We put mustard on everything.

153

Everything.

154

But

155

Bruce: didn't your family

156

Mark: ever have fast food, hamburgers?

157

No?

158

No.

159

No, I didn't grow up on fast food.

160

Oh.

161

We didn't ever.

162

I don't Okay, so, here's the truth.

163

I don't think I've ever

been to a Burger King.

164

I know I've been to a Wendy's.

165

And I know I've been to a McDonald's.

166

Bruce: What about a Wetsons?

167

Mark: I don't even know what that is.

168

Yeah, that was

169

Bruce: a New York

170

Mark: thing.

171

You made me go to a stupid White

Castle once, and I almost didn't

172

make it home to the bathroom.

173

So, um, I don't know anything

really about fast food.

174

We didn't, okay, no, that's not true.

175

Okay, when I was a little, little kid,

I have very vague memories of being like

176

four years old and sitting in the back

of the car and we would go to A& W Root

177

Beer back in the day when they would

still roll it out on roller skates.

178

That's how old I am.

179

And they would bring out the trays

on roller skates to your car.

180

Oh, the drive in, that was real.

181

I still remember that.

182

But I also remember going to the drive

in movie and my mother being appalled

183

when we went to go get hamburgers

and all they had was ketchup for the

184

hamburgers and my mother was Absolutely.

185

Bruce: Well, she wouldn't eat hers.

186

Ketchup is the best.

187

I didn't like mustard.

188

I wouldn't eat mustard as a kid.

189

There was a list of things I wouldn't eat.

190

But now I like mustard.

191

But here's the thing, hot dogs

aside, and all of that, ketchup

192

is the king of condiments.

193

Mark: I just want to say, I just find

it so funny that my mother thought I

194

was of condiments as a class issue,

195

Bruce: that

196

Mark: ketchup was lower class

and we didn't put it on.

197

So that we were not upper class.

198

We were solidly middle class people.

199

Would she group

200

Bruce: people who used ketchup as

the same people who drank sweet tea?

201

Yes.

202

Mark: I am from the South.

203

And when I was coming up in the

South, my mother said that sweet

204

tea was what poor Georgians drank.

205

It was always Georgia was

our example of poor people.

206

And it was what poor people in

Georgia drank was sweet tea.

207

It was not.

208

My mother put lemon period in

iced tea and I still do, right?

209

I still do to this day.

210

I only put lemon in iced tea.

211

I mean,

212

Bruce: we look, we're a

bunch of New York Jews.

213

Iced tea came out of a packet.

214

Oh, nasty, instant, pre sweetened,

artificial lemon flavor.

215

And my grandmother made

it, my mother made it.

216

My mother

217

Mark: would ask in

restaurants, is it brewed?

218

When she would order iced tea,

she would say, is it brewed?

219

Like, it was like, okay, we're way off.

220

But we're talking about

class and condiments.

221

Well.

222

So let's talk about ketchup

since it is a global

223

Bruce: thing.

224

It is the king of condiments.

225

In the U.

226

S.

227

alone last year, six billion with a B.

228

Billion dollars in sales.

229

That's a lot of ketchup.

230

It's everywhere.

231

It's everywhere.

232

I mean, we probably have a few

little packets in our junk drawer

233

upstairs in the kitchen if I were

to go look for them right now.

234

I mean, most people do, right?

235

It's

236

Mark: like And people have really

Big, uh, likes and dislikes about

237

ketchup, like my sister in law, right?

238

She has a thing, right?

239

What ketchup does she like?

240

She will

241

Bruce: only eat Heinz.

242

Right.

243

And if we go into a restaurant

See, it doesn't even register

244

Mark: with me because

I'm not a ketchup person.

245

She

246

Bruce: will only eat I wonder, because

I know that sometimes they go to

247

McDonald's, and you know McDonald's broke

off their deal with Heinz years ago.

248

No, I don't know.

249

Because the company that owned Heinz

had a whole deal with Burger King.

250

They don't go

251

Mark: to, they don't go to McDonald's.

252

No, they go to, they

like to go to Freddy's.

253

Okay.

254

That's a compelling theory.

255

Fred is, is,

256

Bruce: you know, McDonald's

makes their own ketchup.

257

Now they have like an

industrial ketchup table.

258

They stopped using Heinz because the

Burger King and it's all rivalry.

259

But ketchup is everywhere

except in Canada.

260

Mark: Well, no, come on.

261

And in Belgium and in France and you're,

but yes, it ketchup is a global food at

262

this point, but many people consider it.

263

It's kind of a badge of honor

outside of the borders of the

264

United States that we are not U.

265

S.

266

based.

267

And so they want another condiment.

268

And in France, in Belgium,

in Canada, it's mayonnaise.

269

Bruce: Okay, but the, the, the national

food in Canada are French fries.

270

And you have to ask for the ketchup.

271

I was appalled.

272

They just give me mayonnaise.

273

Thinking, I want mayonnaise.

274

Mayonnaise is gross.

275

And the last thing I want

to do is put fries in it.

276

Mm mm-Hmm.

277

So they brought me, I'm

gonna, I, when I asked,

278

Mark: I ate mayonnaise.

279

I'm gonna quote Flannery O'Connor, when,

when you're in a foreign country, do as

280

you done in Georgia . So I ate whatever.

281

They gave me you, we're going

to be Flattery O'Connor, and do

282

what you've done in Georgia and

put your ketchup on everything.

283

But we should say that ketchup is

truly a global food, and if you

284

don't know this, ketchup in fact is

a word itself that comes from ancient

285

Chinese culture, and this is one of

the reasons why you have that problem

286

of how to spell it, ketchup with a K.

287

It's because you're trying to

transliterate Chinese characters.

288

No, I thought it was

289

Bruce: that Hunts made cats up

Well, they did, but it's all a

290

Mark: transliteration,

ultimately, going back kitsy

291

Bruce: ep kind of condiment.

292

And it goes as far back as

the 17th century, and it was

293

made of mushrooms and fish.

294

fish and oysters and

fermented things and nuts.

295

And I don't think, I don't think

my sister in law would like it.

296

Mark: No, no, I didn't.

297

And if you don't know about, uh,

ketchup manis, it's kind of weird

298

pronunciation to it, ketchup manis, but

ketchup manis, and I'm still butchering

299

it, but it's an Indonesian Holland.

300

Condiment, an Indonesian Dutch

condiment, all those wacky

301

Bruce: Dutch I

302

Mark: know, and it's a way that the

Dutch during Colonialization took over

303

an Indonesian condiment and kind of

morphed it more toward a Dutch sauce.

304

But now Kechum niece is just absolutely

305

Bruce: associated with Indonesian cuisine.

306

However, when you look at every bottle

of it, and most people are still

307

gonna call it ketchup Manis, right?

308

When you look at every bottle of it,

they're almost all made in Holland.

309

Yeah.

310

And it's basically a thick,

sweetened soy sauce kind of mixture.

311

But it's hard

312

Mark: to even have an Indonesian

recipe without it in it.

313

But yeah, it's this weird,

uh, cross cultural thing

314

that happened in colonialism.

315

And if you don't know about

it, it actually is a really

316

amazing condiment on its own.

317

It has, it has a lot of really

big big, salty flavors to it.

318

Bruce: For me, it's a key ingredient when

I do like lo mein and stir fried noodles.

319

I love it in that you can use it

instead of oyster sauce if you're

320

opposed to eating oyster sauce because

it does have oyster extractives in it.

321

You can use that ketchup manis

and that would be perfectly fine.

322

But the tomato ketchup that we're used to.

323

didn't really show up

until the 20th century.

324

Right.

325

It is a very modern invention.

326

Mm hmm.

327

By Henry Hines.

328

Right.

329

And the name behind it.

330

He wanted to use tomatoes, which are

rich in pectin and do get thick, and

331

he wanted to cook that down and use

vinegar and sugar as a preservative.

332

You

333

Mark: know, I wonder, and this is

completely just speculation on my part.

334

I haven't done a lick of research,

so here I am on a podcast saying it.

335

Bruce: The research is left to Bruce.

336

Mark: As is typical of podcasts,

I'm just gonna say whatever I think.

337

whether it's true or not.

338

Anyway, um, I wonder if the original

Heinz ketchup was more truly

339

sweet sour because now to me, it's

vaguely sour and almost all sweet.

340

I disagree.

341

Bruce: I,

342

Mark: for me, it's

343

Bruce: vinegary.

344

Mark: What?

345

Vinegar as in there may be an open

bottle of vinegar near it when it's made.

346

We disagree.

347

I disagree on that.

348

No, it's not vinegar.

349

It's no more vinegary or acidic than

a tomato, but that's what I think.

350

Anyway, I wonder if it has gotten

more sugary as time goes on.

351

It's certainly gotten

added corn syrup now.

352

Yes, now it has corn syrup.

353

Which wouldn't have probably been

part of the original formulation.

354

No, but you

355

Bruce: shouldn't go to stores that

sell ketchup without corn syrup.

356

You know, they're all trying

to copy Heinz, though, right?

357

That is basically the base

that everyone's going after.

358

I have

359

Mark: to say that the Millennials

and Gen Zs, as if I can talk about

360

this as a whole thing, I hate when

people talk in terms of generations.

361

Bruce: Categorically.

362

Mark: I know, I hate this

categorical thinking, but younger

363

entrepreneurs who are starting

food businesses are starting a lot.

364

of ketchup businesses, and

they are variously flavored

365

ketchups, not the standard.

366

And they're trying to make them more,

uh, homecrafty, more homemade tasting.

367

Uh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a wrestle.

368

Um, in the book that we're currently

working on in editorial, I just

369

want to tell you that there is

a recipe for standard quote,

370

unquote, standard ketchup in there.

371

And We struggled with that recipe.

372

We went back and forth and

back and forth over it.

373

Because I kept saying, but it

doesn't taste like, and then we said,

374

well, does it need to taste like?

375

I think in

376

Bruce: the end, it does taste

like, because we have a bunch

377

of ketchup recipes in the book.

378

And there is one that we tried to make

taste like, that one that comes right

379

out of the bottle that Henry came up

with back in the early 20th century.

380

I know, but I still think it's

381

Mark: not exactly right.

382

But it was, it secret blend of spices.

383

I know, it was a really

problematic issue in the book.

384

Well, we should just say, while we're

talking about the roots of ketchup, we

385

should just say the roots of mustard

are much, much, much longer and bigger.

386

We know that there were some types of

mustards running around in England.

387

In Egypt, maybe 3000 BCE.

388

Bruce: Yeah, see the pharaohs were putting

mustard on their hot dogs, not ketchup.

389

Mark: And on their dead servants,

but that's a whole other matter.

390

Um, so, uh, you know, we know that

there are all kinds of pastes,

391

and most of the mustards were

made, as paste with great must.

392

That's often a residue of a fermentation

process and mustard seeds and spices.

393

We have recipes for those kind

of pace that date back to the

394

early first century common era.

395

Maybe

396

Bruce: that's what the pyramids

were coded in mustard and

397

they were just mustard colors.

398

Yes, that must

399

Mark: be it.

400

And that's why they don't

look smooth anymore.

401

That's surely the answer.

402

Uh, we should just say

that once again, the St.

403

Louis.

404

World's Fair is the origination

point for what most people think of

405

as mustard, at least in the United

States, because that's where Robert

406

French introduced his mild mustard.

407

And if you know anything

about that mustard, it's mild.

408

Of course, it spurts way too much out of

the bottle, but it's not the deli mustard.

409

It's not strong.

410

I grew up on German mustard, which

because a German immigrant family.

411

So I grew up on this

really no spanking mustard.

412

The yellow stuff that French's make.

413

That's still not for me.

414

It still wouldn't count for my mother

as mustard either, so there you go.

415

Bruce: That 1904 World's

Fair was kind of crazy.

416

There were so many food

things that started and became

417

national trends at that fair.

418

The ice cream cone became a thing there.

419

Peanut butter became a

national thing there.

420

Even iced tea was served there,

which had never really been a thing.

421

Mark: It's what it was,

was an introduction to the

422

mechanization of these things.

423

I mean, like, peanut butter had been

around before that fair, but it introduced

424

it on a mechanized industrial scale, and

it made it up to, as they say, an economy.

425

economy of scale and

became national products.

426

We should just say, in case you

don't know, mustard is healthier

427

for you than sugary ketchup.

428

Mustard has about five calories per

serving, whereas ketchup has about 20.

429

So it is a lower, mustard

is lower in calories.

430

Bruce: And mustard's also way more

versatile, despite the fact that I

431

will reach for ketchup every time.

432

I am not going to put ketchup in my

salad dressing, I'm not going to add

433

it to a stew, but I will add mustard.

434

And it's a key ingredient where

ketchup just wouldn't work,

435

Grandma Rose, notwithstanding.

436

Yes, that's true.

437

Mustard probably would have

been better on those noodles.

438

Mark: And when I was in grad school,

when I was getting my PhD in Madison,

439

Wisconsin Madison, I should tell

you that I went to several times the

440

National Mustard Museum in Wisconsin.

441

It was amazing.

442

At the time it was in a

town outside of Madison.

443

I understand it's now moved to

Middleton, which is a suburb of Madison.

444

It's really just kind of part

of Madison at this point.

445

But the National Mustard Museum there

in Middleton, Wisconsin currently has

446

what, over 5, 000 mustards on display.

447

I remember when it was this little

storefront in this little rural town, and

448

I don't think they had 5, 000, but they

did have a lot of mustards on display.

449

Bruce: But I will say this.

450

Final final parting word on ketchup.

451

It makes great fake blood on Halloween.

452

Oh

453

Mark: That's about the

best you can say for it.

454

I completely agree with this

sentence before Get to the

455

final segment of our podcast.

456

Let me say that we do have a

newsletter In fact, the newsletter

457

that is attached to this podcast

is gonna have some of our favorite

458

favorite ketchups and mustards in it.

459

You can order them and

check them out yourself.

460

If you want to sign up for

that newsletter, you can find

461

a way to do that online at our

website, cooking for some art.

462

com there.

463

You can leave your name and

email and I don't capture it.

464

And the program doesn't capture it.

465

And the mail provider can't capture it.

466

So you can unsubscribe at any time, but

a newsletter connected to this podcast,

467

we'll have some of our favorite ketchups.

468

and mustards in it that you could sample

on your own and how to order them.

469

All right.

470

As is traditional, the final segment,

what's making us happy in food this

471

week, and I'm going to go first

and that is lemon pear bar cookies.

472

I tried one of these.

473

Um, I'm currently

teaching a lot right now.

474

I am leading a once a month poetry

discussion in which we discuss a

475

collection of poetry once a month.

476

I lead that.

477

three book groups, three

book discussion groups.

478

And at two different locations,

I'm giving eight week seminars

479

on the novels of Eudora Welty.

480

And in all of his teaching, I

always bring treats for break.

481

I mean, listen, you really

don't want to listen to me

482

for two hours without a break.

483

So I bring a treats for break and

Bruce often makes them for me.

484

And he made these lemon pear bar

cookies, carved down in five seconds.

485

Lemon

486

Bruce: pear marmalade that went in the

middle of these bar cookies was homemade.

487

Mark: Yeah.

488

Well, that

489

Bruce: does help.

490

What made them lemon pear.

491

Yeah, that

492

Mark: does help that you've got

homemade marmalade in there.

493

Bruce: What's making me

happy are kasha varnishkas.

494

Mark: Oh.

495

And if

496

Bruce: you Back to your Grandma Rose.

497

No, Grandma Rose, no, she did actually.

498

So if you don't know what that is,

it is bowtie pasta that is tossed in

499

a skillet with caramelized onions.

500

Wait, what

501

Mark: have the onions been caramelized in?

502

Bruce: Oh, in duck fat or chicken fat.

503

There you go.

504

You toss in cooked, toasted

buckwheat, also known as kasha.

505

So you got kasha varnishkes.

506

We were at a friend's for dinner.

507

It was Mark's and my 28th

anniversary of being together.

508

It was.

509

And a friend made us a beer.

510

big beautiful dinner and he served,

among other things, Kasha Varnishkas

511

and that made me very happy.

512

It,

513

Mark: it, it's a delicious thing and

um, I, I can't help it even though I

514

was raised in a mustard Christian world.

515

I love Kasha Varnishkas, so there you go.

516

There's the podcast for this week.

517

Thanks for joining us.

518

And making time in your

schedule for our podcast.

519

We appreciate your being on this journey

520

Bruce: with us.

521

And every week we tell you

what's making us happy in food.

522

So please go to our Facebook group

Cooking with Bruce and Mark and tell

523

us what's making you happy in food

this week because we want to know.

524

And if it's really fun and delicious

sounding, we might even make it and try

525

it here on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.