We review UK band Level 42’s “Lasso the Moon” from the 1991 Album “Guaranteed,” covering the song’s unusual chord changes and additional beats, which add rhythmic complexity and surprise to the composition. In the review of the lyrics, we discuss the vivid imagery and poetic artistry, painting a detailed picture of a woman’s longing and emotional journey, with references to a scene from the classic movie It’s A Wonderful Life.

In the Mailbag section, we explore how perfectionism can hinder creativity, emphasizing the importance of letting go during the initial creation phase and focusing on iteration and editing to refine the final product.

Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://youtu.be/41i9_-RXngg

Other links

• Clip from It’s A Wonderful Life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAERYfeiYBc
• The Number 42 (The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)#The_Hitchhiker.27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
• Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7gCOF5M0zYS1fBvXgT5ccI?si=7F3yVdEDRRWa_gAArK3AYg
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
• Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/3b47be4937b7490982f4a872db32ec8dsune?ref=dm_sh_AEFZY8KhvSsz1TGoRmasg6zHZ

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?

Trist: Oh, this week, we have a UK band that started primarily as just

Trist: an instrumental jazz funk fusion band who then had kind of big

Trist: hits in the 80s.

Trist: But of course, as we do here on

Trist: The Musician's Loupe, we're

Trist: going to feature neither of

Trist: those things.

Trist: Going to feature a song from the 90s instead.

Trist: This is one of my favorite bands.

Trist: I've probably said that on this

Trist: podcast more than one time, but

Trist: really one of my favorite bands,

Trist: Level 42.

Elaine: Oh, interesting.

Elaine: I actually don't think I've heard of them, so I'm really

Elaine: looking forward to hearing this.

Elaine: What song are we listening to?

Trist: Their song is called "Lasso the Moon,"

Elaine: Oh, that's

Trist: from

Elaine: a cute

Trist: their

Elaine: name.

Trist: yeah, from their 1991 album called "Guaranteed."

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: Well, before we pause, can you

Elaine: remind our listeners how we

Elaine: should be listening to music as

Elaine: a part of The Musician's Loupe

Elaine: community?

Trist: Ooh, especially this one.

Trist: This is a well-recorded song.

Trist: I love the production on this one.

Trist: Find your best listening situation.

Trist: We appreciate you no matter how

Trist: and where and when you've joined

Trist: us.

Trist: So thank you for being here and just that's our little reminder

Trist: we like to add, if you can put a little better audio in your life

Trist: and your experience, we highly encourage doing so before you

Trist: listen to this one and come back and join us.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Now, this is one that's a little

Elaine: bit special because we don't

Elaine: have a link on every single

Elaine: platform.

Elaine: Is that right?

Trist: Yeah, we'll kind of talk about that a little bit.

Trist: This is their first album that was on a different label than

Trist: they had been on.

Trist: It's the only album they did on this label, I believe.

Trist: And sometimes the way that the streaming stuff goes, it's kind

Trist: of like, hey, label, put out all of our stuff.

Trist: And then a couple years later, it's like, oh, right.

Trist: There's that one album that they don't have because they didn't

Trist: put it out.

Trist: Often when albums aren't appearing that you want, there's

Trist: some kind of legality or frankly, just laziness or

Trist: sometimes just something was complicated in the deal and the

Trist: label doesn't want it to be there, or they won't give them

Trist: enough money to stream it, or who knows why.

Trist: But this one was difficult.

Trist: I think we'll only have like about the best YouTube stream we

Trist: can find for you.

Trist: It doesn't really appear on any others, which is another reason

Trist: we're glad you are here.

Trist: So you can find these things,

Elaine: Okay, so with that, we are going to pause now with a one link

Elaine: that we have.

Elaine: Listen to this song and we will be right back.

Elaine: Wow, that was an amazing track.

Elaine: I really enjoyed listening to that one.

Trist: Yeah, that's a good one, isn't it?

Elaine: Yeah, there was so much in this track.

Elaine: I had to pause and listen to it multiple times.

Elaine: Listen to a whole bunch of different aspects of it.

Elaine: But one of the first things that caught my attention were just

Elaine: some of the chord changes.

Elaine: It was so unusual from that perspective, especially for

Elaine: something that is maybe a little bit more pop sounding.

Elaine: Just the chord changes were so

Elaine: unusual and so delicious from

Elaine: that perspective.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about why you selected this song?

Trist: once again, I've always loved this one.

Trist: I like a lot on this album.

Trist: And again, I'm a big fan of the band and even being a big fan of

Trist: this band, I think I mostly listened to stuff from the mid

Trist: 80s and early 80s.

Trist: I really like the instrumental jazz fusion-y sounding stuff

Trist: that they did early on.

Trist: And then of course, their biggest hit in America,

Trist: "Something About You."

Trist: They had a couple other top ten hits and they had pretty big

Trist: hits all throughout Europe.

Trist: They've been a pretty big mainstay, classic 80s pop band,

Trist: throughout the UK and Europe for most of their career.

Trist: And again, here on The Musician's Loupe, there are a

Trist: bunch of quote unquote hits that we could have dug into that are

Trist: very, very cool.

Trist: But this one, it's on an album that's not as popular.

Trist: And even on the actual physical album, the vinyl release, this

Trist: song isn't even on it.

Trist: It was an extra.

Trist: So I think there were ten songs

Trist: on the album and this is song

Trist: number eleven.

Trist: So just one I always liked.

Trist: Even for them, the vibe is a little different.

Trist: The main lead singer, that's the most notable voice, literally

Trist: and figuratively for this band is Mark King, the bass player

Trist: who's an incredible bass player.

Trist: Most of the crazy muso bass

Trist: players jazz, funk, pop, rock,

Trist: metal, whatever.

Trist: They're all.

Trist: Oh yeah.

Trist: Mark King, that's the pop slap guy.

Trist: And even more amazing, much like someone like a Sting or any

Trist: other bass player who sings sometimes once again, on the

Trist: record, "Wow, how could they play that crazy complicated part

Trist: and then sing that different rhythm?" Of course in the studio

Trist: you can do whatever, but lots of live performances demonstrating

Trist: his ability to kind of separate and play one funky rhythm and

Trist: sing a different crazy rhythm and melody over the top of it.

Trist: I mentioned that because that's the one for any listeners who

Trist: kind of remember the main song, "Something About You," it's the

Trist: other voice that sings the little bridge or the little

Trist: pre-chorus on "Something About You," the higher voice of Mike

Trist: Lindup, the keyboard player.

Trist: He's the one that sings the entire lead on this song.

Trist: And he didn't do that often in the band.

Trist: And he wrote this one as well, I believe also a lyricist helped,

Trist: but this is his, rather than most of the stuff that usually

Trist: comes from Mark.

Elaine: That is really interesting to

Elaine: think about him not being one of

Elaine: the primary vocalists in this

Elaine: band, because his voice was so

Elaine: good.

Elaine: And I think about the voices that I've heard that have been

Elaine: trained versus untrained, and he sounds like a trained singer.

Elaine: He sounds like he's supporting.

Elaine: He sounds like the quality of his voice is so good,

Trist: Oh yeah.

Trist: Well

Elaine: especially

Trist: he's.

Elaine: for an- I don't want to say like, especially for an

Elaine: instrumentalist, but you find

Trist: Right.

Elaine: a lot of instrumentalists who don't have trained voices

Trist: Right.

Elaine: and

Trist: Or

Elaine: his

Trist: in the

Elaine: sounds

Trist: band's

Elaine: really shine.

Trist: sorry.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Or in the band's Oh, on live,

Trist: guitarist, we need you to sing a

Trist: couple of these chorus

Trist: background vocals.

Trist: You don't have to be amazing.

Trist: Just kind of sing the part in tune.

Trist: So we get the harmonies.

Trist: You're right.

Trist: A lot of times they maybe don't

Trist: have really great, well trained

Trist: voices.

Trist: Mike Lindup, definitely provided a lot of vocals for the band

Trist: over the years.

Trist: It's just a lot of the hits, a lot of times, are more

Trist: associated with Mark's vocals.

Elaine: Now, one other thing that I was thinking about is how his voice

Elaine: was mixed and how it sounds with the overall instrumentation.

Elaine: Now, when I first listened to it, I had none of this context.

Elaine: And so I was listening to it and thinking, is this an 80s song?

Elaine: Maybe, but it sounds a little too lush to be an 80s song.

Elaine: It sounds too warm.

Elaine: It sounds like the instruments are too good.

Elaine: And I looked at 1991, I'm like,

Elaine: oh, okay, I kind of understand

Elaine: that.

Elaine: But I also understood that vocally, that was also something

Elaine: where I felt like his voice was not mixed too tinny.

Elaine: I think that in a lot of 1980s songs, the trend at that point

Elaine: in time was to mix people a little bit thinner.

Elaine: And I don't know whether it was

Elaine: their voice was thin to begin

Elaine: with, or the way that they were

Elaine: mixed sounded a little bit more

Elaine: treble, like they had some of

Elaine: the foundation of the voice cut

Elaine: out, but this sounded a lot more

Elaine: natural.

Elaine: It sounded a lot more like they got a wider range of his voice,

Elaine: or that his voice has had more of a foundation to begin with.

Trist: Yeah. I think the recording quality is excellent.

Trist: These amazing musicians, amazing engineers.

Trist: A couple of the players on the album include Dominic Miller as

Trist: a main guitarist.

Trist: Most of the things that you know from Sting, the main guitarist

Trist: he has playing with him all the time is Dominic Miller, who kind

Trist: of flirted with being in this band at its early, early days.

Trist: So he's been kind of, buddies with them and around the

Trist: formation when they were kind of their jazz fusion thing at the

Trist: beginning of the 80s.

Trist: But he played a lot on there.

Trist: Another guitarist, Allan Holdsworth, who's known for

Trist: having his own kind of sound, he plays in a more of a

Trist: non-traditional soloing throughout this album.

Trist: Anyway, there's just an amazingly high level of

Trist: professionalism and musicianship on this whole album, so it

Trist: doesn't surprise me that all of the sounds are really great.

Trist: Something that I like on this that really moves some of the

Trist: phrases forward are the 2/4 bars that happen both in the main

Trist: verse and in the choruses.

Trist: There's these extra couple of

Trist: beats at the end of every other

Trist: line.

Trist: and at the ends of the choruses,

Trist: actually in the middle of the

Trist: choruses.

Trist: Another reason why that's cool and why I think of it like a 2/4

Trist: bar is because there's a percussive sound that we talked

Trist: about on the last podcast.

Trist: It's like a clave sound.

Trist: And rather than someone playing it, I know it was some kind of

Trist: looped percussion, like some kind of programmed thing.

Trist: Because every time the 2/4 bar

Trist: happens, the rhythm changes, it

Trist: flips around.

Trist: So it switches every time that comes around because the

Trist: sequence just stays in 4/4.

Trist: So when you have the 2/4 bar, the

Elaine: Oh,

Trist: where,

Elaine: I see.

Trist: the, where that lands.

Trist: it's a totally insignificant

Trist: part that doesn't stand right

Trist: out.

Trist: But of course, here on The Musician's Loupe, we're

Trist: listening very closely to

Elaine: Yeah,

Trist: these

Elaine: I just

Trist: kinds

Elaine: marked

Trist: of things.

Elaine: it down as an extra measure instead of the 2/4.

Elaine: And it could very easily be

Elaine: like, oh, it's an eight measure

Elaine: loop.

Elaine: And

Trist: To

Elaine: they only did have the first half of the 8,

Trist: write.

Elaine: which is like, again, going back to your point in previous

Elaine: episodes about this notation stuff, it doesn't really matter.

Elaine: It really

Trist: Right?

Elaine: is much more how it feels.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: But yeah, that was interesting to me because that extra couple

Elaine: of beats in your case, and for me, like that extra measure, I

Elaine: didn't always catch it.

Elaine: And so when I first listened through, it actually sounded a

Elaine: little bit jarring.

Elaine: And I was like, oh my goodness, where did that come from?

Elaine: And when I listened to it again,

Elaine: I realized it happened every

Elaine: single time.

Elaine: And so it was interesting how

Elaine: many times it happened that it

Elaine: felt natural and I didn't even

Elaine: note it.

Elaine: And after I listened to it, I was like, oh, it actually

Elaine: happens all the time.

Elaine: I just didn't notice it until then.

Trist: yeah.

Trist: I love that.

Trist: And to me, that's a perfect example of how that should go.

Trist: I don't think this is an

Trist: instance where, oh, this will be

Trist: cool.

Trist: I'll put a 2/4 bar right there.

Trist: No, it's, What does the music call for?

Trist: Oh, at the end of every phrase, I feel like I need another

Trist: little beat here because I want to do this little rhythm.

Trist: I want to do this little melody that leads into the next line.

Trist: Oh, okay.

Trist: Well, that doesn't fit in the 4/4 we're doing.

Trist: Let's add two extra beats here.

Trist: Oh, okay.

Trist: I always like when the music is what is important.

Trist: just happens to do this musical

Trist: change rather than a contrived,

Trist: oh, it'll be kind of clever if

Trist: we add this and make it weird or

Trist: whatever.

Trist: So I love that.

Trist: It happens like every two lines.

Elaine: Yeah, you're right.

Elaine: It does happen every two lines.

Elaine: Now, it's interesting that you talk about how the music just

Elaine: follows the thought of the person who is writing it,

Elaine: because I think that the chord changes also do the same thing.

Elaine: Now I did look this up.

Elaine: It looks like it is an F sharp

Elaine: minor and it switches to F sharp

Elaine: major.

Elaine: So it's not even the relative minor to this key.

Elaine: It just makes a hard left turn into a completely different key.

Elaine: And it feels related because it has the same root, but it's

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: foundationally a different set altogether.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: And that changed back and forth feels very mysterious.

Elaine: It doesn't actually feel incredibly contrived, even

Elaine: though from a musical standpoint, it is a pretty hard

Elaine: left turn there.

Trist: I too love the changes, some predictable and some not.

Trist: I love surprises in music.

Trist: Again, you get surprised the first time through, but then

Trist: once you've got it, it's like, oh, wow, what a lovely

Trist: progression to write a song on.

Trist: And then again, the little extras of the, the two extra

Trist: beats, every couple of lines, just gives like a little pause,

Trist: a little lift.

Elaine: Yeah. It's amazing.

Elaine: I would love to talk about the lyrics now.

Elaine: What did you hear in the lyrics

Elaine: this time around in listening to

Elaine: it?

Trist: Well, I was wondering about The

Trist: "Lasso the Moon" as a cliche and

Trist: a phrase.

Trist: Do you have like an idea where that maybe comes from?

Elaine: I mean, there are a lot of different options here, but I

Elaine: definitely did a search.

Elaine: And it turns out that "lasso the

Elaine: moon" is from "It's a Wonderful

Elaine: Life,"

Trist: Ah, yes.

Trist: Of course.

Elaine: eh, which is the 1940s or so.

Elaine: There are actually multiple

Elaine: songs that reference this as

Elaine: well.

Elaine: I can't imagine that it is something that is unique to

Elaine: "It's a Wonderful Life."

Elaine: I'm sure that there are other references that are there, but

Elaine: that's the one that was most common that I found.

Trist: Yeah, that makes sense.

Trist: Even if not conscientiously thinking of that exactly, it's

Trist: like as a songwriter, you hear that phrase, you understand it

Trist: even if you're not thinking of its exact derivation.

Elaine: So I've actually never watched this movie, but George and Mary

Elaine: are in this scene together, and he's trying to convince her

Elaine: about his future.

Elaine: And they're having this moment

Elaine: where they're looking at the

Elaine: moon and he says, oh, you want

Elaine: the moon?

Elaine: I'll throw a lasso around it and bring it down for you.

Elaine: And so there was something very sweet about that moment inside

Elaine: of the movie.

Trist: Yeah. So, in the first chorus, the point of view of the

Trist: storyteller, he's experiencing that this woman has this longing

Trist: for someone, you know, "where is my man who can lasso the moon?"

Trist: Obviously, where's my guy like that from old movie days.

Trist: So she has all of these dreams, where is this person?

Trist: And eventually the very, very end, it turns around.

Trist: He's like, yeah, me.

Trist: I think I can be this person.

Trist: It's all the experience of the subject seeing that in this

Trist: woman, then eventually at the end closing with, I'm the one

Trist: that can do all of these things.

Elaine: Yeah, I love that turn as well.

Elaine: Just the switch from this description of this woman to

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: claiming to be that person who she's looking for.

Elaine: And one of the things that I

Elaine: noticed about this was just how

Elaine: incredibly descriptive the

Elaine: lyrics were as we find out more

Elaine: about this woman, and it seems

Elaine: to be telling these specific

Elaine: vignettes about her life and the

Elaine: things that we find out about

Elaine: it.

Elaine: We're talking about carrying

Elaine: water from the well, sand

Elaine: burning her feet, she's sitting

Elaine: on the hillside and she's

Elaine: falling asleep.

Elaine: And so these pictures that the lyricist is painting, I just

Elaine: felt were very specific.

Elaine: It's like moments in time.

Elaine: And by sharing these very specific moments in time, we

Elaine: learn more about her.

Elaine: And so thinking about this, I

Elaine: had to ask myself, who is this

Elaine: woman?

Elaine: Why is she longing and thinking

Elaine: about carrying water from a

Elaine: well?

Elaine: We're talking about someone rural, maybe someone not in the

Elaine: United States, I don't know.

Elaine: But there's also the sand burning her feet.

Elaine: And so now we're talking about,

Elaine: is it desert that we're talking

Elaine: about?

Elaine: But I also felt that there was a

Elaine: specific artistry in the

Elaine: lyricism just based off of the

Elaine: word choice.

Elaine: So thinking about "loneliness

Elaine: lingers," that alliteration

Elaine: there, where

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: both words start with the same letter.

Elaine: The liquids in those consonants really bring us to a point of

Elaine: lushness in the language itself.

Elaine: And so thinking about the lyrics

Elaine: from that perspective, oh my

Elaine: goodness, the artistry here,

Elaine: "slow,

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: grasping fingers."

Elaine: Aaagh, I can't say enough about this.

Trist: Yeah. And the whole thing might not even be literal, it could

Trist: all be metaphorical.

Trist: This could be someone who lives in a city and who's never been

Trist: on a sand dune in her entire life, but she feels like she's

Trist: had all of these experiences.

Trist: I'm doing all of this stuff.

Trist: Where is my fire builder?

Trist: Now that I'm actually seeing the

Trist: words right in front of me, I'm

Trist: remembering even more evidence

Trist: that the lyricist's idea may be

Trist: truly from "It's a Wonderful

Trist: Life," Because he does use "Just

Trist: say the word and I'll lasso the

Trist: moon."

Trist: He does use that exact lyric at the end.

Trist: So yeah, even one more tick in the voting of it's someone's

Trist: reference to "A Wonderful life."

Elaine: I would also plus one that

Elaine: although I haven't seen it, I

Elaine: just like saw that little clip

Elaine: there.

Elaine: And we'll put the clip as a link so that people can reference it.

Elaine: It is interesting to think also about what we find out about her

Elaine: and how she has been burnt.

Elaine: And it seems like "recalling

Elaine: romances in all the bright

Elaine: chances, but none of them

Elaine: lasted.

Elaine: They passed through her heart."

Elaine: And so thinking about she's maybe a little bit jaded because

Elaine: she's been through all of these different experiences before.

Elaine: So as she's looking for this

Elaine: person, she's really looking for

Elaine: passion.

Elaine: So if I were to summarize, I

Elaine: would give the lyrics an A+,

Elaine: just from

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: the sheer artistry of it, from the poetry of it.

Elaine: It tells a very crisp, clean

Elaine: story, and I think it also

Elaine: brings us on a journey, not only

Elaine: this journey with a woman, as we

Elaine: discover more and more about

Elaine: her, but also about the singer

Elaine: of the song and how he engages

Elaine: with it.

Elaine: It's not just a storytelling song.

Elaine: Like, we've talked about storytelling songs, where it's

Elaine: all third person, there's no engagement between the narrator

Elaine: and this person.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: But at the very last chorus that

Elaine: we get, we do get the sense of

Elaine: the narrator is now engaging

Elaine: with this person directly as

Elaine: opposed to it's just like over

Elaine: there.

Elaine: It is now here in front of him.

Elaine: And I just think that's so special.

Elaine: It's so precious.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Trist: Any of these bands like this, this is a theme that we come

Trist: back to a lot here.

Trist: We did this with a lot of different artists where we dig

Trist: into a song that was not their most famous thing, and oh yeah,

Trist: whatever happened to them?

Trist: Oh, they just continued to live their lives as great musicians

Trist: making great music.

Trist: Do yourself a favor and check out what they did.

Trist: If you like something they did, you might like something they

Trist: did 10 years after that or 20 years after that.

Trist: This is a great example of it.

Trist: Again, a lot of my friends who really like this band and have

Trist: no idea about this album.

Trist: They kind of disbanded and

Trist: didn't really do anything

Trist: actively as a band just after

Trist: this album, and even before it

Trist: hadn't been doing a lot,

Trist: switched labels.

Trist: So lots of different reasons why this one might not have really

Trist: caught people, but I loved it.

Elaine: Awesome. Well, I do have a fun

Elaine: little fact just to wrap this

Elaine: up,

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: which is I was looking at the

Elaine: Wikipedia article and it looks

Elaine: like Level 42 is a reference to

Elaine: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the

Elaine: Galaxy,

Trist: Oh right.

Elaine: written by Douglas Adams, which is one of my favorite series.

Elaine: And so thinking about 42, the

Elaine: Meaning of Life, Level 42

Elaine: meaning ah,

Trist: There you

Elaine: it's

Trist: go.

Elaine: like my little nerd heart is just like, so happy right now.

Trist: That's what I was going for, Elaine.

Trist: That's what I was going for.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Okay, so let's switch gears and move into.

Trist: Ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma.

Trist: Mailbag.

Elaine: That's right, the Mailbag.

Elaine: And you can contribute to the

Elaine: Mailbag by contacting us, you

Elaine: can reach us via email at

Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com that

Elaine: is L-O-U-P-E, or in Instagram

Elaine: and Threads both

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe.

Trist: Yeah, those are the places you

Trist: can send us your favorite Level

Trist: 42 song or your favorite Level

Trist: 42 album, or ask us more

Trist: questions about them or wonder

Trist: why we missed really important

Trist: cool facts or have a song

Trist: suggestion, please get a hold of

Trist: us there and let us know you're

Trist: listening.

Trist: We're happy to take ideas,

Trist: constructive criticisms, make

Trist: the shows two hours, make the

Trist: shows five minutes, whatever

Trist: you've got, you let us know what

Trist: you think.

Trist: We just appreciate that you're listening.

Elaine: All right, so this week's mailbag is from Threads, one of

Elaine: our favorite places to be.

Elaine: And this is from someone named FUD Leclerc and there's an

Elaine: underscore between FUD and Leclerc from March of 2026.

Elaine: So a very recent post and this person writes, "I write better

Elaine: songs when I stop trying to write a good one."

Elaine: And there's a response from

Elaine: @juanccordion saying, "I also

Elaine: play way better when I'm not

Elaine: recording myself.

Elaine: Performance anxiety is a real obstacle, even if it's

Elaine: unconscious and we think we're in total confidence mode."

Elaine: And the response to that was,

Elaine: "The red light on the recorder

Elaine: changes everything.

Elaine: Suddenly you forget how hands work."

Trist: Yeah. Big time.

Trist: Yep. That happens.

Trist: That happens to all artistic types, I believe.

Trist: You have too much focus, and you can't just let it happen.

Trist: Or you have that great rehearsal

Trist: and now at the show, it just

Trist: doesn't happen.

Trist: You're nervous about the wrong things.

Trist: Or your attention is in the wrong place.

Trist: All kinds of reasons that kind of stuff can happen.

Elaine: I want to jump in here and talk

Elaine: about it from the writing

Elaine: perspective, because as a

Elaine: writer, one of the things that

Elaine: you learned fairly early on is

Elaine: to not edit yourself as you're

Elaine: writing.

Elaine: And I think that taps into the

Elaine: truism that we are often

Elaine: hampered by our own

Elaine: perfectionism because we are

Elaine: constantly trying to get the

Elaine: perfect take, the perfect words,

Elaine: the perfect phrasing, the first

Elaine: time that we're doing something

Elaine: and I have the perspective that

Elaine: music and writing music and

Elaine: recording music is a very

Elaine: similar kind of thing where if

Elaine: we get caught up in making the

Elaine: perfect thing to begin with, as

Elaine: opposed to getting something

Elaine: down and then iterating on it,

Elaine: we end up in this cycle where we

Elaine: actually police ourselves as we

Elaine: are playing, and that actually

Elaine: hampers our ability to be

Elaine: creative.

Elaine: Like, what do you think about that?

Trist: Yeah, I think so.

Trist: I think there are different versions of this too.

Trist: I was thinking even our band

Trist: today, Level 42, again, starting

Trist: out as jazz fusion, not someone

Trist: who's going to probably take the

Trist: world by storm with their music,

Trist: and at some point they're like,

Trist: you know, we've gotten just

Trist: enough popularity and enough of

Trist: a fan base if we write the right

Trist: song.

Trist: So I think sometimes there is a purpose, like, no, I'm going to

Trist: try to write a hit song.

Trist: That's why I think there's varying shades of this.

Trist: So yes, I write better songs

Trist: when I stop trying to write a

Trist: good one.

Trist: And yet sometimes there's some formulaic.

Trist: No, hey, let's see if we can

Trist: actually try to write a hit

Trist: song.

Trist: And then that can pay for the rest of our careers doing

Trist: whatever songs we want.

Trist: And I love the serendipity with this one being with this band

Trist: because really they have an insane amount of output.

Trist: There's so much music that they've made and a handful of

Trist: the things were charting or what someone would call hits.

Trist: And that actually helped the whole thing happen and helped

Trist: keep them going.

Trist: And so they literally decided,

Trist: no, we want to try to have hit

Trist: songs.

Elaine: Let me throw out this question

Elaine: for you because along the same

Elaine: lines as what I was talking

Elaine: before in terms of

Elaine: perfectionism.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about

Elaine: the editing process and how you

Elaine: think about iteration and

Elaine: editing

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: your original work, and how that has manifested in your work?

Trist: I think editing is underrated in arts altogether.

Trist: And depending on what it is,

Trist: there's always an "it depends,"

Trist: I don't like editing from the

Trist: live jazz improviser at the live

Trist: jazz concert.

Trist: Now in the jazz vocal ensemble recording, I love editing.

Trist: In the live jazz vocal ensemble, I love letting it rip and it's

Trist: like don't be thinking about it.

Trist: You've done all the rehearsing, sing the notes, sing the chords,

Trist: share the experience.

Trist: And then the editing comes into play when you're recording,

Trist: "Wow, that take was great.

Trist: Don't need to redo it.

Trist: I'm gonna edit this one little

Trist: thing that's going to make this

Trist: piece of art that lives

Trist: forever."

Trist: Because that live thing you did was just a one time thing that

Trist: we're sharing here experientially in this space.

Trist: And even if I noticed a little quote unquote flaw somewhere

Trist: that was just part of the magical one time experience that

Trist: I got to be with you.

Trist: Rather than "here's this thing I'm going to stream a thousand

Trist: times for the rest of my life.

Trist: And it always has that little thing that's off that seems

Trist: weird to me."

Trist: So that's where that comes in.

Trist: I think I notice editing more

Trist: sometimes in movies or in

Trist: documentaries.

Trist: I remember I had a DVD of a comedian and I had seen the HBO

Trist: special right at the height of the HBO comedian special.

Trist: And this one special, it was like my favorite.

Trist: Just the timing, the pacing, the joke to joke.

Trist: The way the whole evening went

Trist: out, I thought was just

Trist: masterful.

Trist: I just thought, wow, this guy is incredible.

Trist: Then I bought the DVD that had that exact special and it had

Trist: the unedited concert.

Trist: The unedited concert that it

Trist: came from was not as funny as

Trist: the special.

Trist: Of course, he's an artist.

Trist: He's just creating, doing some

Trist: crowd work with different

Trist: things.

Trist: I just learned the art of editing right there.

Trist: Like, whoa, I've seen this special be so perfectly timed,

Trist: and I didn't realize that the pace was part of what I enjoyed

Trist: about that original until I then watched it unedited.

Trist: It's just sometimes you need to not self-edit just to get the

Trist: ideas all out there.

Trist: So the fact that that comedian,

Trist: he didn't try to make the

Trist: perfect HBO special, he did the

Trist: best that he could, went with

Trist: the audience.

Trist: And he just did his hour and a half.

Trist: And then they created the art by creating the special, by cutting

Trist: it all into place.

Elaine: It's interesting that you went

Elaine: with the whole concept of live

Elaine: and thinking about editing a

Elaine: recording as opposed to editing

Elaine: a song.

Elaine: And I'm thinking about writing long form.

Elaine: So my area of fiction writing, for instance.

Elaine: I've done primarily short form that's published, but I've also

Elaine: done long form personally.

Elaine: So the first book that I did was

Elaine: an anthology with a few other

Elaine: authors.

Elaine: And the concept was, we're all writing in the same universe.

Elaine: It's sci fi.

Elaine: And so all of it's supposed to stitch together and we all

Elaine: edited each other's work.

Elaine: We all reviewed it to begin with.

Elaine: And one person, I was like, Holy cows.

Elaine: This is really, really messy.

Elaine: It is practically incoherent.

Elaine: And we went through multiple editing rounds.

Elaine: He shaped it up.

Elaine: He ended up winning an award for his piece.

Elaine: And when I read the final thing.

Elaine: I was really surprised at how it had shaped up through multiple

Elaine: rounds of editing.

Elaine: And that was something that I really bring to bear when it

Elaine: comes to the creative process.

Elaine: A lot of my writer friends will

Elaine: call their first draft the

Elaine: crappy first draft or the zeroth

Elaine: draft, just to remove the sense

Elaine: of it needs to be at a certain

Elaine: quality when I finish the

Elaine: initial work.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: And it's a part of them kind of holding it with a very loose

Elaine: hand, saying like, I am not shipping this version.

Elaine: This is the version to tear apart.

Elaine: This is the version to recraft.

Elaine: And so the editing portion of a

Elaine: novel or a short story or

Elaine: whatever it is, is significant

Elaine: because it really reshapes the

Elaine: narrative.

Elaine: So as I'm thinking about songwriting in particular, it is

Elaine: very, very rare that I will ship a first version of a song.

Elaine: And so in some ways, it's just

Elaine: getting it out there in the

Elaine: first place to say like, okay,

Elaine: let's take a look at this after

Elaine: we have some fresh eyes and

Elaine: think about where can we tighten

Elaine: this up?

Elaine: Is this really what I want to say out of the song?

Elaine: How can I change it?

Elaine: And I'm not as good at this with

Elaine: songwriting as I am with fiction

Elaine: writing.

Elaine: It is definitely a part of what

Elaine: I would call craft, and how you

Elaine: go from just throwing out

Elaine: whatever the first ideas that

Elaine: you have in your mind, versus

Elaine: cultivating and really shaping

Elaine: the ideas that you have for a

Elaine: finished product.

Trist: Absolutely.

Trist: And it's always key, like you

Trist: said, to have someone else do

Trist: that.

Trist: I find I'm a pretty good editor of everyone else's work.

Trist: Then I need someone to look mine- It's like, wow.

Trist: It was so obvious to me what needed to be edited in that

Trist: thing that other person did.

Trist: And then on my own thing, I had to bring someone else in so they

Trist: could also say the obvious thing that I was somehow missing.

Trist: So someone you really trust needs to be involved and help

Trist: you streamline your ideas.

Elaine: Or we're too close.

Elaine: Sometimes

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: we're too close to be able to

Elaine: see the theme that we're writing

Elaine: on.

Elaine: To be able to get validation

Elaine: from an external source is

Elaine: really helpful in our creative

Elaine: process.

Elaine: Yeah, I totally

Trist: Absolutely.

Elaine: agree with you there.

Trist: Yep. Indeed.

Elaine: Okay. Any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Trist: That's it.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So we have a big, big favor to ask you all.

Elaine: Please, please, please share an episode with a friend.

Elaine: We know that you all love music and hopefully you all love us.

Elaine: And so with that, we would love for you to share one of our

Elaine: episodes with a friend.

Elaine: Help them to discover us as well.

Elaine: We know that you are going to be

Elaine: the best people to be able to

Elaine: share our podcast with other

Elaine: music lovers.

Trist: And, we will have playlists on all the platforms.

Trist: Again, unfortunately, this

Trist: particular song is really just

Trist: going to be on the YouTube

Trist: playlist.

Trist: So share the YouTube playlist with someone if you want them to

Trist: hear this song and maybe if they're not wanting to dive in,

Trist: maybe even if they hear the playlist and find one song they

Trist: want to know something else about, then they can check out

Trist: what we had to say about it.

Trist: So please do share.

Trist: We really do appreciate it.

Elaine: And with that, that's our episode for this week.

Elaine: Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you next week.

Trist: See you.

Trist: No way!

Elaine: Ah!

Trist: You're crazy.

Elaine: Sorry, my voice completely cut out there.

Trist: was like, um, should I look outside?

Trist: yip

Elaine: it just

Trist: yip yip

Elaine: like,

Trist: yip yip

Elaine: yeah,

Trist: yip.

Trist: Tangents-ville.