Shownotes
In this episode, Blair Kaplan Venables interviews Sarah Edmondson, an actress and whistleblower of the NXIVM cult, about her journey and experiences. Sarah joined NXIVM in 2005, believing it was a personal development program, but later discovered its darker, cult-like nature. She describes the red flags she encountered, including high-pressure sales tactics and the eventual branding with cult leader Keith Raniere's initials. Sarah emphasizes the importance of self-education, therapy, and community support in recovery. She also discusses the upcoming book she co-authored with her husband, which aims to help others identify and escape from cult-like. This is her story and she is RESILIENT A.F.
Pre-order Sarah's upcoming book on her website at Sarahedmondson.com/book.
Buy the books: https://theglobalresilienceproject.com/books/
Be featured in RESILIENT A.F.: Stories of Resilience Vol. 3: https://blairkaplan.kartra.com/page/RAF26
About the Guest:
Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress and voice-over artist who has starred in multiple TV series and more than a dozen films. Her whistleblower story following her departure from personal and professional development company NXIVM is told in her memoir, Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, the CBC podcast “Uncover: Escaping NXIVM,” and critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM, The Vow.
Co-hosted by her husband and fellow NXIVM whistleblower Anthony “Nippy” Ames, her podcast, A Little Bit Culty, explores the fads, beliefs, and trends that blur the line between devotion and dysfunction to help people understand, heal from, and avoid abusive situations. Besides her work as an actor and podcaster, Sarah attends conferences and events as a speaker, host, and cult-recovery advocate. Her TEDx talk, “How to spot a cult,” is featured on TED.com.
Links:
Email: sarah@sarahedmondson.com
Website: www.sarahedmondson.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sarah.edmondson.752
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahedmondson/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/sarahjedmondson
Book:https://amzn.to/4hVquPu
⚠️ Content Note: Some episodes may contain themes that could be distressing. Please take care of yourself while listening, and don’t hesitate to seek support from a mental health professional if needed.
About the Hosts:
Blair Kaplan Venables is a British Columbia-based grief and resilience expert and coach, motivational speaker and the Founder of The Global Resilience Project. Her expertise has been featured on media platforms like Forbes, TEDx, CBC Radio, Entrepreneur, and Thrive Global. She is named the Top Grief and Resilience Expert of the Year 2024 by IAOTP. USA Today listed Blair as one of the top 10 conscious female leaders to watch and she empowers others to be resilient from stages around the world. 'MyStory,’ which is a television show available on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV+ and Google Play, showcases Blair's life story. She is the host of the Radical Resilience podcast and specializes in helping people strengthen their resilience muscle using scientifically proven methods and guides grieving high performers with her Navigating Grief Framework. The Global Resilience Project’s award-winning book series are international bestsellers, and her fourth book, RESILIENT A.F.: Stories of Resilience Vol 2, will be published in January 2025. In her free time, you can find Blair writing, in nature, travelling the world and helping people to strengthen their resilience muscles.
Links:
https://theglobalresilienceproject.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairdkaplan
https://www.facebook.com/blair.kaplan
https://www.facebook.com/BlairKaplanCommunications
https://www.instagram.com/globalresiliencecommunity
https://www.instagram.com/blairfromblairland/
https://www.facebook.com/globalresiliencecommunity
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-global-resilience-project
Alana Kaplan is a compassionate mental health professional based in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. She works in the mental health field, and is a co-host of the Resilient A.F. podcast. Fueled by advocacy, Alana is known for standing up and speaking out for others. Passionate about de-stigmatizing and normalizing mental health, Alana brings her experience to The Global Resilience Project’s team, navigating the role one’s mental health plays in telling their story.
Engaging in self-care and growth keeps her going, and her love for reading, travel, and personal relationships helps foster that. When she’s not working, Alana can often be found on walks, working on a crossword puzzle, or playing with any animal she sees.
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Transcripts
I would never have wanted Keith Ranieri's initials on my
Speaker:body. And by the way, that was one of the things that's really important, is
Speaker:that the branding itself didn't wake me up. It was realizing that the
Speaker:symbol of my body was his initials and that they'd lied to me about that.
Speaker:Wow. Yeah. All cults have deception. If
Speaker:I had joined on day one and they said, you know, in 12 years, you're
Speaker:going to have the leader's initials seared into your flesh,
Speaker:okay, I would have said, what the fuck are you talking about? So
Speaker:that so many things had to happen to get to that point. And what I
Speaker:had agreed to, actually was a. An initiation into a sisterhood. It
Speaker:was supposed to be an all women's group, which, had
Speaker:it been what it was supposed to have been, would have been lovely. You know,
Speaker:a group for accountability and women upholding each other and
Speaker:keeping each other accountable to their goals and, you know,
Speaker:meeting weekly and being consistent and that kind of thing. But that was all of,
Speaker:again, another front for something darker. So there was like a
Speaker:cult within a cult. Welcome back to another episode of
Speaker:Resilient AF with Blair and Alana. But hold the
Speaker:Atlanta and trade in Sara Edmondson. I
Speaker:am so excited for today's episode because we're hitting some new milestones.
Speaker:One, I put on a bra for this. Two, we're in
Speaker:studio for our first time. Should we keep doing this? And
Speaker:three, Sarah and I go way back, like 17 years
Speaker:back, and we've been trying to do this interview for probably about a
Speaker:year, and it just didn't work out. We live in different countries, different time
Speaker:zones, and she and I are finally in the same place at the
Speaker:same time. Who the heck is Sarah? The
Speaker:name might sound familiar because she's an actress. You may have seen her in
Speaker:Hallmark movies. You may have read her book Scarred.
Speaker:You may have watched a show that she created called the
Speaker:Vowel. Maybe you've seen her in the New York Times
Speaker:because she was one of the whistleblowers for the NXIVM cult.
Speaker:But I know her on a different level. Well, not really, but
Speaker:sort of. And I am honored to be sitting with
Speaker:her today. Hi, Sarah. Hi, Blair. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so
Speaker:glad we did this in person. It's such a treat, so much fun.
Speaker:So let's just, like, cut to it. Sarah didn't know she was in a
Speaker:culture. You didn't know you were in a cult? No. Nobody joins a cult on
Speaker:purpose. Yeah, no one joins on purpose. And then
Speaker:all of a sudden it was like, oh, fuck, I'm in a cult. And
Speaker:I almost joined your cult. You did. I'm so glad you didn't, though. We were
Speaker:in. I'll never forget. I somehow met you. I think we could. Who introduced
Speaker:us? I was trying to remember that. I don't know. But somehow, like, we both
Speaker:had the Jewish connection. And you're like, come to this
Speaker:townhouse. Might have been Marissa's, I think it may have been.
Speaker:And you're like, I wanted to do it. We're sharing things. And I
Speaker:went. And I loved everyone there. And you were talking about this personal development,
Speaker:and I love that shit. My background's Lululemon. Right. And I was like, I
Speaker:am so into this. But then you kept talking about Vanguard. His name is Keith,
Speaker:but we call him Vanguard. I was like, that's kind of weird. Red flag. And
Speaker:red flag. And then you told. Then there was a cost. And I was like,
Speaker:I'm too poor. I could barely pay my rent. I was like, darn it. So
Speaker:being poor saved you? Saved me? Yeah. And your
Speaker:journey, I mean, do you want to give maybe the high level?
Speaker:Because we only have so much time today. The Cliff Notes of, like,
Speaker:your journey. Yeah. And also, it's so, like, widely out there. If somebody wants to
Speaker:hear an abridged version of my story on another podcast or whatever, put it in
Speaker:the show notes. Perfect. But the long and short of it is that I joined
Speaker:in 2005, what I thought was a personal and professional development program, which is what
Speaker:I was probably pitching you on, esp. It was called Executive
Speaker:Success Programs. Everyone knows it now is nxivm because there were
Speaker:so many different other companies. That's the parent company, so it's easier just
Speaker:to say Nexium. But at that time, it was esp, and I
Speaker:was a big proponent of it. I loved it. Changed my life. I learned a
Speaker:lot of great tools, and I was a recruiter. I told
Speaker:everybody that I thought could use it or need it about it, because I really
Speaker:did believe in it. And really what it was on the outside was
Speaker:just that, tools for growth. Tools to understand your belief system,
Speaker:tools to understand who you are, to build self awareness and all those things. But
Speaker:on the inside was something much darker and very nefarious that
Speaker:was kept for me for many, many, many years. So I've since learned that all
Speaker:cults do this. They have something of value on the outside to draw people
Speaker:in. I call it like honey on the outside of a rotten apple. Draws people
Speaker:in so many Things happened. I was there for 12 years. And we can dig
Speaker:into any of this. But cut to 12 years later. Some.
Speaker:Some very big red flags emerged that were too
Speaker:hard to ignore. And I had many over the years, but I didn't understand what
Speaker:I was looking at. I didn't have the co education that I have now.
Speaker:Otherwise I probably would have run for the hills, you know, so much sooner.
Speaker:But at the end of that 12 years, those things were too hard to deny.
Speaker:And myself and my husband and a group of other whistleblowers went to the New
Speaker:York Times. That sparked an investigation.
Speaker:The leader was in jail for now 120 years. Keith Renieri,
Speaker:Vanguard. The vanguard is behind bars. Yeah, he's
Speaker:being. The vanguard's being guarded. He absolutely is. Um, and just
Speaker:a. Just a little thing. I didn't create the Vow. I was a subject in
Speaker:the Vow, but it doesn't just as. Just. Just so people know that I was
Speaker:subject in it. But that documentary kind of blew up my life. It happened in
Speaker:Covid in terms of like, I mean, obviously getting out of the cult blew up
Speaker:my life, but in terms of having a spotlight on this issue. And it came
Speaker:out, you know, in 2020, after everyone was watching Tiger King and then
Speaker:everybody was watching the Vow, and people started messaging Nippy
Speaker:and I. My husband, who I met in Axiom, I have two beautiful kids with
Speaker:him. I call them my silver linings. And
Speaker:writing things like, oh, my goodness. I didn't realize I was in a cult until
Speaker:I saw the Vow or holy. Holy shit.
Speaker:I almost joined this thing. And then I watched the Vow and I realized that
Speaker:it was a cult and my research. So we started to recognize that the Vow
Speaker:was totally broadening people's perspectives on cults and how coercive
Speaker:control works and how people can get involved in these things and not
Speaker:know what they're looking at until it's too late. And I had been
Speaker:acting up until that point, and we stopped because it was
Speaker:Covid. And then all of a sudden we started to record, you know,
Speaker:our conversations that we were having with experts and other whistleblowers. And it turned into
Speaker:a podcast, which is now our career. A little bit culty, A
Speaker:little bit. Culty as we talk about things that are a little culty, a lot
Speaker:culty, and everything in between. And it's been very rewarding
Speaker:and very meaningful to me. And. And I hadn't gone back
Speaker:to acting, and it's now our full time thing. So that's a sort of a
Speaker:brief version. I was in A cult. I got out of a cult and I
Speaker:have a podcast about cults, so. Her story is fascinating.
Speaker:Okay, so, Sarah. Yeah. You got
Speaker:branded. I got branded. So I want to talk about that for a sec. Because
Speaker:you didn't know it was a cult because you were on the outside. You were
Speaker:in the honey. And then you learned about the rotten apple. Yeah. What was your
Speaker:first flag? And. Or like, what was the first flag? And then how did
Speaker:that, like, translate. To the last
Speaker:flag? Yeah, the last flag. The permanent flag. The permanent
Speaker:flag. So I actually had red flags from before I even
Speaker:went to the program. My. My first red flags were the pressure I was getting
Speaker:to join, you know, signing up for the 48 hour discount. Are you talking about
Speaker:the very first, like, before I. Before you had flags before? Yeah, I just didn't
Speaker:know. My line about that is I saw the red flags. I just thought I
Speaker:was going to a carnival and. You were. I was, yeah. And that's the
Speaker:thing. Red flags are very helpful in
Speaker:retrospect, unless you can learn from them and bring them forward into
Speaker:the future. Knowing what I know now about cults and like,
Speaker:sales tactics, I wouldn't have even signed up because I would have
Speaker:recognized, oh, you're using scarcity mentality to make me feel like this is my last
Speaker:opportunity and my FOMO tendency so that I, you know, don't miss out on
Speaker:anything. And you're using high pressure so I can get the discount and all of
Speaker:these sales tactics. And then also in my very
Speaker:first five day training, I had many inner gut
Speaker:instincts to get the fuck out. And I could swear. Right?
Speaker:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Great. Awesome. We're the resilient as of course,
Speaker:duh. In the
Speaker:title. Sarah. Okay. Pass away. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely had many, many
Speaker:instincts to leave. And what they did very
Speaker:brilliantly was they set up that from. From the beginning, if
Speaker:you have the urge to bolt, which is normal, it just means that you're like
Speaker:working on your shit, which there is come some truth in that. Like, if you've
Speaker:ever been in therapy and I know you're a coach, and sometimes when you're really
Speaker:in it, it's uncomfortable to look at yourself. So there
Speaker:was that element and then there was also this inner voice saying, something's not right
Speaker:here. But then there's this other thing called Sun
Speaker:Cost Fallacy, where once you've, you know, paid your money and you want to get
Speaker:your money's worth, or like a very simple example, it's at the elevator and you've
Speaker:pressed the button you know, it's coming. Like, at some point you don't want to
Speaker:cut your losses because you've already invested so much time. So you wait it out,
Speaker:wait it out, wait it out. So that's kind of what was happening for me.
Speaker:And 12 year waiting, 12 year waiting in the elevator, it was like, this
Speaker:is going to pay off. It's going to pay off. And I had invested so
Speaker:much. The other metaphor that I like to use, I think it's really
Speaker:important, is that there's this idea that there's a shelf where we
Speaker:put things and moments and thoughts you can't quite wrap your
Speaker:head around. And you put it on the shelf and you put things on the
Speaker:shelf and eventually the shelf breaks. So the final
Speaker:straw. Yes. Was the branding. But I had 12 years of
Speaker:wait, what did he just say to me? Or I don't. Like, I don't. That
Speaker:doesn't sit right with me. Oh, but he's the authority. So
Speaker:there's so many things in a system where there's a power imbalance, and
Speaker:ours is no different than any other cult or any. Any other group that I've
Speaker:studied since where in an authoritarian structure, which, you know, there's a pyramid,
Speaker:there's someone on top. And if you're agreeing, I'm coming in as a
Speaker:student, which in any coaching program, you have to. You have to say, I know
Speaker:less than you teach me. Yes. So that's
Speaker:helpful sometimes. But it's also inherently set up for
Speaker:toxicity or abuses of power. The person on the top wants to
Speaker:exploit the people on the bottom, which it was the case with the vanguard,
Speaker:but we would never have suspected that because he was the most humanitarian,
Speaker:ethical man in the world, is what we were taught. So,
Speaker:so interesting. Okay, so walk me through this, because you said you were
Speaker:in the honey and like, you didn't know what was going on behind the scenes
Speaker:in those 12 years. When did you learn what was going on behind the scenes?
Speaker:Like, the week before I left. Good for you. Your flag got
Speaker:really big. My flag got really big. So. And there's so many things that led
Speaker:up to that. All those shelf moments that I mentioned, Too many
Speaker:to encapsulate in an hour. My first book that you mentioned, Scarred, really
Speaker:walks people through. Like, how did I even get branded? How
Speaker:would I let that happen? Which is a common question, unless
Speaker:you've been a cult survivor, in which case the response is, I'm so sorry that
Speaker:that happened to you, because I would never have let that happen. I would never
Speaker:have wanted Keith Ranieri's initials on my body. And
Speaker:by the way, that that was one of the things that's really important is that
Speaker:the branding itself didn't wake me up. It was realizing that the symbol
Speaker:of my body was his initials and that they'd lie to me about that.
Speaker:Wow. Yeah. All cults have deception. If
Speaker:I had joined on day one and they said, you know, in 12 years, you're
Speaker:going to have the leader's initials seared into your flesh.
Speaker:Okay, I would have said, what the fuck are you talking about? So
Speaker:that so many things had to happen to get to that point. And what I
Speaker:had agreed to actually was a. An initiation into a sisterhood. It
Speaker:was supposed to be an all women's group, which had
Speaker:it been what it was supposed to have been, would have been lovely. Yeah. You
Speaker:know, a group for accountability and women upholding each other and,
Speaker:and keeping each other accountable to their goals and, you know,
Speaker:meeting weekly and being consistent and that kind of thing. But that was all of,
Speaker:again, another front for something darker. So there was like a
Speaker:cult within a culture. It's just so bananas. And I am sorry that happened
Speaker:to you because I can't imagine. Because I believe. I listened to your book as
Speaker:soon as it came out. Thank you. By the way. I'm a big, like, I
Speaker:mean, I love you as a human, but like, also I was sharing off
Speaker:camera. Like, I don't know if it's a fascination, but I'm like the perfect
Speaker:candidate for a cult. Like, I'm looking to, you know,
Speaker:for community developing myself. I have a lot of trauma and like, I've
Speaker:almost joined a few cult. What were the other ones? Well, hold
Speaker:on. I just want to say. I just want to say, like, the way you
Speaker:describe it in the book, like, it. You understand how you got there.
Speaker:So I do want to invite people to read your book because it's great and
Speaker:I know, like, you're working on another book, so there'll be something in the future.
Speaker:What cults have I almost joined? Okay. So some people say Lululemon's a
Speaker:cult. Definitely culty. So culty. So I just want to
Speaker:say I love your podcast. I haven't listened to every episode, but I listen to
Speaker:it a lot and I do a lot of driving and I actually once got
Speaker:in a car accident listening because I was so into it. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker:my fault. I was at the back of a pile up. So, yes, it's my
Speaker:fault, but it wasn't my fault. Yeah, I just didn't have Enough following space.
Speaker:But I was like. So I had to stop listening to it while I drive.
Speaker:Yeah, that's. So your podcast is so good. And one of the things that
Speaker:I take away is like a. The dark humor that you and Nippy
Speaker:have. But if it feels a little culty, it's probably
Speaker:a cult. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love that because it just kind of stuck
Speaker:to me because. So I worked for lululemon for three and a half years.
Speaker:I obviously, like, I left that and started a PR company. But when I worked
Speaker:at Lulu, they sent me to Landmark. Right. That's the culty part of it.
Speaker:So Landmark. I only went to the Forum, and I only went because it was
Speaker:a free trip to Vancouver. And I was like, I could see my best friend.
Speaker:It's Halloween. I was dressing like a loony at a loon in a gold lame
Speaker:outfit. And actually, for me,
Speaker:I didn't have obviously any money or intentions on continuing on. And, like,
Speaker:see the money saved you again. Yeah, I know. Being like, listen, we don't need
Speaker:deep pockets, we need shallow pockets sometimes. So. But
Speaker:the thing is, is, like, there was a point in those few days that
Speaker:something clicked in my brain and actually gave me the tools I needed that I
Speaker:didn't know. I had to forgive my dad. Amazing. And began developing a
Speaker:beautiful relationship with him because he lived with addiction. He broke my heart as a
Speaker:child. I hated him. I wanted him to die. And I just had this moment
Speaker:where I'm going to accept him for who he is. Well, he was, because he's
Speaker:since passed. And we developed a beautiful relationship. So I
Speaker:took a lot away from Landmark. And what's really interesting is that every conversation I
Speaker:have, someone is like, what was that moment? And I can't remember. And then I
Speaker:listened to your. I think it was a two part Landmark interview. Yeah. Ann Peterson.
Speaker:Yeah. And I, I. There was a moment in the interview where I was like,
Speaker:that is it. That's when it happened. And then it just like, it's like, I
Speaker:can't remember. I can't. It doesn't stay in my brain. Probably about, like looking at
Speaker:the story. And I don't even know, but I remember, like, that could be it.
Speaker:So I didn't join Landmark. But you got the good out of it. You got
Speaker:the good out of it. When I was 12, I wanted to make money and
Speaker:I had my mom sign up for Avon and I went door to door selling
Speaker:makeup so I could have got sucked into the Avon world. I'm glad you. And
Speaker:there was a Like, I'm a prime candidate for mlm. Like I can sell anything.
Speaker:I can sell trees to a forest. And so there was a couple different.
Speaker:Like I'm always, people are always trying to hook me into whatever MLM they're,
Speaker:you know, a part of. Right. And there was a couple I signed up
Speaker:for. Like, at one point I was in Scentsy. At one point I was in
Speaker:this thing called Lioness, which sold like loyalty cards.
Speaker:And yeah, I was just like, I don't wanna do mlm.
Speaker:I don't sell stuff to my friends. I have my own business. I just wanna
Speaker:use the product. But it's like, then everyone's like, oh, I'll use that.
Speaker:And then I get recruited and they're like, put me in this and I'll put
Speaker:people in your downline and you. Get earned 10% and then you put your product
Speaker:cover forward. Hashtag boss, babe. Exactly, exactly. So I
Speaker:don't know if there's any other cults I've almost joined. Just a thought
Speaker:about Landmark, I wanted to add. Yeah. What you just described is how
Speaker:most people that I know, at least that went through ESP in
Speaker:Vancouver, they just had things like that. They got to
Speaker:resolve a conflict with a parent or understand
Speaker:some dynamic that they struggled with somebody in their
Speaker:life or something personal or achieve certain goals. That's if. And this
Speaker:is a big part of like what I try to talk about now, and this
Speaker:is in my TED talk, is that take the tools and put them in your
Speaker:life. In your little tool belts. Exactly. Don't make the
Speaker:tools your life. And that's when it becomes culty. And if you had joined
Speaker:Landmark and become a coach, you would have worked for them for free. You would
Speaker:have done like with Anne, from our interview with her. You put all this time
Speaker:and energy, it's a.
Speaker:What's that word? When you're an internship. Internship, Right.
Speaker:And it's a long ass internship. And that's where the exploitation
Speaker:happens. So all of these groups have valuable things. Now what's
Speaker:ironic is that Nexiv, ESP, Landmark,
Speaker:Scientology, LifeSpring, PSI,
Speaker:Access, Consciousness, all of these things come from the same
Speaker:different hodgepodge of different therapeutic modalities
Speaker:in terms of communication models and understanding your
Speaker:belief system and how you like operate in the world. They're all
Speaker:sort of the same base tenants and they all have really, really, really
Speaker:wonderful things and also very negative things with the same
Speaker:principle. Like both NXIVM and Landmark have this like personal responsibility
Speaker:thing. Great. Something happens in your life and like you Want to be feel
Speaker:potent and responsible. You look to see how you, you know, caused that and
Speaker:how you participated in, like, maybe your expectations were off and how wonderful. But
Speaker:if you're being abused or exploited, it's very easy to be like,
Speaker:well, how is that your fault? And being gaslit to think that
Speaker:you somehow deserved the abuse or caused the abuse or some.
Speaker:Or whatever the thing is. Yeah. So every positive thing that
Speaker:most people get out of something like landmark and ESP also has a negative
Speaker:way that an abuser can exploit that very same tool. Does that make
Speaker:sense 100%. Yeah, it makes sense to me. Does it make sense to you listeners?
Speaker:I hope so. I hope so. It's just. It's one of the things I want
Speaker:to give listeners aren't necessarily super cult literate
Speaker:is to say, like, just because there's something good in a program doesn't mean
Speaker:it can't be used against you or that there isn't bad things going on behind
Speaker:closed doors. Like, I can't tell you how many people are like, well, I'm so
Speaker:glad that, you know, you got out of your cult. That would never happen to
Speaker:me. I mean, I'm part of tm Transcendental Meditation, for example. And I'm
Speaker:like, dude, that's a cult. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's full on film. Yeah. Full
Speaker:blown cult. Like, oh, yeah, Bikram. Oh, but you just take hot yoga. Okay, well,
Speaker:that's fine. You can still take hot yoga, but you're still in a cold. Yeah,
Speaker:that leader is a douchebag who's on the run. And you can cut that out.
Speaker:If you don't want to be saying. No, you can say that. It's true. Yeah,
Speaker:Bicker. I'm a douchebag. Nothing is off the table. Okay, great.
Speaker:I mean, all of these leaders have kind of douchebags at the helm who are
Speaker:usually sex addicted and power hungry. Anyway, you were gonna ask me something. Oh, yeah,
Speaker:this is the matcha. It's like, no, this is good. We had matcha. I
Speaker:want to bring up, you said something about being cult literate. And Alana, my sister
Speaker:couldn't be here today. She had a couple questions and this is like a perfect
Speaker:segue. Sorry, Alana. We miss you. So she wants to
Speaker:know a. What's been the most helpful
Speaker:tool for you in recovery from cult life? Hmm.
Speaker:I have like, five. I can't. Give us the five.
Speaker:Yeah, and actually this is in the new book. Okay, so this is in the
Speaker:new book because so many people come to us who've read Scarred or heard the
Speaker:podcast or watched the Vow, and they're like, I just got out. What do I
Speaker:do? And instead of saying, hey, listen to 200 episodes, we're trying to
Speaker:refine our wisdom that we've gotten from all of our guests into
Speaker:a book. Are you doing it with Nippy? Yeah, we're running it together. Oh, I'm
Speaker:so excited to read this. Yes. It's gonna be awesome. And his voice isn't really
Speaker:out there in the written word yet. Yeah, the written word. Yeah.
Speaker:Okay. So, yeah, so the five tools. So this is. This is all in the
Speaker:book in terms of healing modalities. So there's a lot of things. One is
Speaker:self education, like, really understanding what the fuck happened. And that was in
Speaker:the form of books and podcasts and docu series and talking to other guests
Speaker:and, you know, learning some of the things we're trying to distill into the
Speaker:book. So that was something we had to do and took us a long time.
Speaker:We're hoping to save people time down the road. Well, you. Because sometimes they don't
Speaker:want. They just want. Give me the Coles notes. This is the Cole's notes. I
Speaker:need help. This is like the A to Z for. A to Z for co
Speaker:American of you. I know, I know. We're so American already. Why didn't
Speaker:Zed A to Z. Oh, my God. That feels weird now. I can't believe
Speaker:I've embraced that. It's okay. Yeah, y'. All. That too.
Speaker:Yeah. A lot of time in nature being in, like,
Speaker:in a cold river or like, glacial cold plunging
Speaker:forest bathing. Forest bathing. I have to walk every day after every podcast,
Speaker:especially when it's dark content. I get outside and get some fresh air.
Speaker:And then so many different actual healing modalities.
Speaker:Just basic therapy. I do a lot of body work. Massage,
Speaker:cranial sacral
Speaker:microdosing. Yeah. Yeah. Big into the both types of
Speaker:microdosing. And hot
Speaker:baths. Every night, pretty much, I have a hot Epsom salt bath. Like,
Speaker:without fail. I'm not even recovering from a cult, and I do all those things.
Speaker:I'm recovering from life. You've had some other trauma. But, like,
Speaker:that's a. But the science. There's a, like, neuroscience is behind all those things.
Speaker:And I think that's really interesting is, like, you don't have to do these things.
Speaker:If you've never, like, healing from leaving a cult, you should be doing
Speaker:them anyways, because life, we are the walking wounded. And you may
Speaker:be, like, also cult adjacent or somewhat in a cult. Not even know. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah, right. Like, what about those people addicted to video games? Like, like,
Speaker:yeah, you're dependent on something. Right. Which reminds me, the other thing that's really important
Speaker:for me is my yoga practice, which is also difficult because I don't want to
Speaker:get caught up in another yoga thing. Right. So I'm
Speaker:very clear about going to a studio that doesn't have a dogma.
Speaker:It's not preachy. It's not preachy. You're there to stretch and
Speaker:connect. And I'm okay with a little bit of spirituality as long as it's not
Speaker:part of, you know, Kundalini or Bikram or
Speaker:John friend from. From Ashtanga. Like all of these people have had
Speaker:scandals and I don't want to be a part of that. Right. I love that.
Speaker:And that's. Those are really great tips and I can't wait to read that book.
Speaker:Thank you. So the second question that came in from my sister
Speaker:Roni. We like to call ourselves the Griefy Gals. Oh, yeah,
Speaker:Great. How can you spot if a group or organization is leaning towards
Speaker:being culty? That's a great question. I think the first
Speaker:thing to check in with yourself is how do you feel? Feel?
Speaker:And any group will make you feel good at first. And so
Speaker:that's. It's hard to use that one throughout because if
Speaker:you're like, oh, I feel so welcomed and I feel so accepted and I
Speaker:feel so special and I feel so seen, that can be really good. But it
Speaker:also can be love bombing. Yeah. Right. And that's hard because if you're in that
Speaker:phase, everything's with rose colored glasses and it's, it's hard to
Speaker:notice the red flags. And, and then also when it does come, because
Speaker:it eventually does, where you're criticized or you're kind of cut down a
Speaker:bit, that can be a place for you to go, wow, that's
Speaker:really toxic, and hit and run, you know, get out of there. But other times
Speaker:people go, oh, but like, I'm here to learn
Speaker:and this person's helping me, like an esp. That kind of feedback
Speaker:or criticism was always done in a really loving tone. Yeah. So it was very
Speaker:difficult to know that it was toxic. It was like someone was saying to me,
Speaker:you know, something like, well, what, what does it mean that you even think that
Speaker:right now? You know, Lululemon was like that too. Like the sandwich method.
Speaker:Like, oh, like, I really love how you fold these shirts. Unfortunately, you
Speaker:talk too much to customers, but we love the information you're
Speaker:giving. Yeah. Sort of like in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Like, why is it necessary to bring that up right now? Do you think? Yeah,
Speaker:exactly. You're like, what'd I do wrong? Like, that's a feeling.
Speaker:Like, answering qu. Asking questions. So what's interesting about what you just said is, like,
Speaker:you should listen to your intuition. Like, listen to your gut. Right. Like, it's another
Speaker:brain. You should. And that's the thing is that people say, like, oh, I just
Speaker:trust your instincts. But sometimes your instincts. And what really happened in ESP for
Speaker:us is our instincts got dismantled. We were even taught that if you feel
Speaker:something, the line for it. And this is a term called
Speaker:loaded Language, or from the book Cultish,
Speaker:Amanda Montel is like, that's just a viscera. That's just a feeling. No,
Speaker:it's not just a feeling. That's my gut saying, get the fuck out. Yeah, but
Speaker:we were taught, okay, I'm feeling uncomfortable. But it's basically that
Speaker:means that there's something within me that I need to look at as an issue.
Speaker:Oh, I don't like the sashes that I have to wear. I don't like having
Speaker:to call you vanguard. What does it mean to you? What does that bother
Speaker:you? Do you think, oh, I have an issue with authority, which also might be
Speaker:true. Yeah. So now my issue with authority is now being used against me to
Speaker:explain why it's okay that I feel uncomfortable with the term Vanguard versus. No,
Speaker:that's just weird. And why do you need to be called vanguard when your name
Speaker:is Keith? And what is a vanguard? Vanguard is the leader of a philosophical movement.
Speaker:That's what it means. Well, that's what we were told it meant. What does it
Speaker:mean? It's like the forefront of something that's like. You'll see, like, Vanguard
Speaker:Painting Co. Or Vanguard Financial Firm. It's a term that's out there,
Speaker:I think. But he learned about this, and I found this out later from a
Speaker:video game, and he's like, yeah, vanguard. I'm gonna be the vanguard. Oh, my God.
Speaker:Ew. Boner killer. I know a lot of boner killers in this.
Speaker:Yeah. Are you listening to this podcast In Jail, Keith? I hope so.
Speaker:I hope he is. Do you have podcasts in jail? I don't know.
Speaker:Sidebar. When you brought up Tiger King, you were in the washroom when I said
Speaker:this. I actually interviewed Tiger King on this podcast from
Speaker:Jail Come On Roundabout. Oh, wow.
Speaker:That's amazing. Okay. But you asked me what are the things that are. Signs are
Speaker:leaning a bit culty. So the feeling, but also like, who's, you
Speaker:know, who's the leader and it can you, like if you feel like
Speaker:you're in a group and you can't express a concern or
Speaker:ask a question without that happening, what we just did, like being flipped back on
Speaker:you, that's a problem. If there's no transparency
Speaker:about, you know, how things operate or where the money goes.
Speaker:These are things that, like leaning towards culty when it becomes, I think when it
Speaker:becomes really insular and everyone in the group is like obsessed with it
Speaker:and that's their whole thing. Like, that's their whole life.
Speaker:Do you know what I mean? Like, there's no other. It's like that's their identity,
Speaker:that's our identity. And that's, that's a red flag. I say, well, like when the
Speaker:thing that you're doing becomes all consuming and there's not a good work
Speaker:life balance and there's. There's things like we've covered on the podcast, like
Speaker:Bridgewater, which is the Ray Dalio investment firm. They actually he
Speaker:took Landmark and he made his, his investment for hedge fund.
Speaker:Sorry, operate like Landmark, but like really high
Speaker:level. Like people are getting feedback all the time. People had ratings, like 10 out
Speaker:of 10 ratings that could people give feedback up or down. But he rigged the
Speaker:system so that his feedback was, oh, his rating was always higher than anybody
Speaker:else. It was his company. So you couldn't actually give
Speaker:him any, any feedback about like, you know, how he's doing
Speaker:because he was always above you. So he always trumped you. Wild. Yeah.
Speaker:So did I answer that? So, yeah, signs. I mean, like, I think there's lots.
Speaker:Of signs, lots of signs. But those are some things, the common things and all
Speaker:other things I'd say is like, what happens when you leave the group? Like, are
Speaker:you shunned? Are you cut off? Like, are you instructed to not communicate with people
Speaker:who've left? Things like that. Have you reconnected with some of your. Friends
Speaker:that were in, that were in. The cult
Speaker:with you? Oh, yeah. That originally shunned you. But
Speaker:most of the people that really shunned me hard, I can't speak to because there's
Speaker:a civil case and I cannot wait for that to be over so we can
Speaker:reconnect. But are they still in the cult as well, the people? Some of them
Speaker:are and some of them aren't. There are, I would say somewhere between maybe 10
Speaker:and 20 who are still and we say in the cult, like they're not taking
Speaker:classes, although they are running in Mexico they're fully running
Speaker:in Mexico City right now under a different name. The cult is
Speaker:running? Yes. They're like. They're doing the Mexican name of Nexia. El
Speaker:Nexia. I don't know. I don't know what it's called.
Speaker:Would you want to talk to them? I would talk to anybody. Anybody who wants
Speaker:to talk to me, I would talk to them, but they don't want to talk
Speaker:to me. I'm bad. I'm evil. I'm suppressing. Okay, well, like,
Speaker:to them, yeah, well, have fun. Yeah, but there are. Don't drink the tap water.
Speaker:There are people who left and still haven't called me or talked to me
Speaker:because they're mad at me for how. I did it, like, saving
Speaker:a lot of lives. They just think they're still. That when that happens, I
Speaker:believe that they're not yet unindoctrinated. In other words, they
Speaker:still believe in some of the tenets of esp, and one of them was this
Speaker:concept of speaking with honor. So. And this, I think, is a little bit
Speaker:in Landmark, too, is that you, like, always speak of somebody in upholding them
Speaker:as a human. So instead of. Instead of saying, like, you know, Keith Rener is
Speaker:a douchebag, I might say, you know, he was a wounded soul
Speaker:who really was feeling empty inside. He. He had
Speaker:a bad relationship with his mother, and he was always seeking to
Speaker:fill that. Fill that void with. That's how. Why he. You
Speaker:know, like, it's a more humanitarian perspective. Right. So you'd always
Speaker:want to talk to people and about people in that
Speaker:way. Right. So I think that there was basically what
Speaker:that meant is it protected him from anyone gossiping. Right. And saying,
Speaker:do you think it's a bit weird that Keith has, like, all these women around?
Speaker:Like, no one was allowed to speak about him negatively or anyone,
Speaker:really. So that suppresses the, you know, flow of
Speaker:communication. Why was I talking about this? Well, we were talking
Speaker:about your friend, the. Oh, yeah, the old friends in Mexico, and then the ones
Speaker:that have left. Is it called Defected? Defected, yeah. So. So if they look
Speaker:at me and how I'm speaking, even to you on this podcast, I am not
Speaker:speaking with honor. No. So even if they are
Speaker:grateful to me and the other whistleblowers for blowing the whole thing up,
Speaker:they are still mad at me for being dishonorable
Speaker:in that framework. And I think maybe that's protecting you from having people that,
Speaker:you know, like, your energy is so sacred. So why not? They don't belong in
Speaker:your life if that's how they. Exactly. I'm totally. I will always
Speaker:accept a phone call from someone who has shunned me in the past. I will
Speaker:always accept a phone call from someone who has shunned me in the past. Except
Speaker:from Keith. From jail. I would even talk to him just to be like,
Speaker:yo, what would you say to him
Speaker:with the wrong person? Like, what were you thinking? What were you thinking with the
Speaker:wrong person? Yeah, you're. Somebody messaged me yesterday saying
Speaker:something about, like, you. Your
Speaker:punch is. I don't know, like. Like,
Speaker:this is the best you can do? Yeah. You know, they really. They. He really
Speaker:underestimated me. Haha. Haha. Jokes on you
Speaker:in jail. Okay, so. So you
Speaker:have his initials on you. I got it removed.
Speaker:Oh, yeah. I had this. I had my brand removed almost three years
Speaker:ago. How do you do that? I didn't think. Yeah, so it was, like, this
Speaker:big, and it was right here, like, right below my bikini line. And a
Speaker:plastic surgeon cut, like, an eye shape around it
Speaker:and basically cut it out and then sewed it back together. So I have a
Speaker:scarf that's, like, about this long right here. Looks like a tiny little, like a
Speaker:cesarean scar almost, but, like, to the left. It's basically a cesarean scar. You
Speaker:gave birth and. I gave birth
Speaker:to what? I gave birth to a. You gave birth to a personal development
Speaker:slash sex cult. Yeah. Group. And then I got rid of
Speaker:it. Yeah. And then you got rid of it. Yeah. I did do everything I
Speaker:could to diminish it, and it was really, like. It was really keloid at some
Speaker:point and raised. And I, like, did all these, like, keloid injections.
Speaker:My naturopath did all these different treatments to remove the scar, but it was eventually
Speaker:flat and white. But you could still see KR when you looked in the mirror.
Speaker:Like, I think, like, being branded would be terrible,
Speaker:but the fact that it was also his initials is, like, this whole other level
Speaker:of, like. Ugh. I know. Yeah. I'm so happy you had it removed.
Speaker:I did. Yeah. It was a very important thing. And I had a friend of
Speaker:mine here in Vancouver do, like, a little kind of intentional
Speaker:ceremony with some, you know, palo santo and sitting paper.
Speaker:Yeah. I was like. And I went into that. The surgery, like, itself
Speaker:was quite triggering because I'm lying on the table in the same way
Speaker:that I. That it happened. You know, I have to, like, you know, be almost
Speaker:nude to be, like, you know, have this surgery done. They gave me an Ativan
Speaker:bonus. Yeah, Bonus. Silver lining. Yeah. Which is great.
Speaker:So I was like, Whatever. Do your thing. But, like, it was a very momentous,
Speaker:very, very conscious choice to have it
Speaker:cut off. Yeah. And do
Speaker:you have. You must. Well, I mean, it's on the COVID of your book. A
Speaker:picture of the scar. Do you have. Did you, like, have other
Speaker:pictures that you documented, like, all the treatments you were doing and what. How. What
Speaker:was. Yeah, I don't have as many as I wish I had, but that's one
Speaker:of the reasons why I kept it for so long is because I needed the
Speaker:proof. And. Yes. That's like, even when I was, you know, after I did the
Speaker:New York Times and, like, then like, showed,
Speaker:you know, showing the FBI and showing the journalists
Speaker:who interviewed me for 2020, which is, like, all these big press things. I didn't
Speaker:do it on air, but I would, like, show. I wanted them to see it
Speaker:because it's a very visceral thing to see a mark like that on
Speaker:someone's body. It was big, and it was. It was pretty grotesque.
Speaker:Is it like the way you see in movies where, like, they heat up the
Speaker:iron and they. No. No. And if anyone buys my book in
Speaker:Mexico that I don't. I don't have any control over Mexico. Yeah. Like the Spanish
Speaker:version of Scarred. Okay. I'm like. I'm like. Because there's cults down there. No,
Speaker:because when. When you. When you publish through,
Speaker:like, a big publisher, they can just translate. Translate it. And so they did. Had
Speaker:this. This, like, you know, iron that had the. The symbols,
Speaker:and it was, like, smoking. And I was like, that's not what happened. No. So
Speaker:it's. Can you walk us through, like, moment by moment? I don't know if I'm
Speaker:not going to go fully moment through moment, because it's a little treat. Yeah. You
Speaker:choose the moments that. That you're comfortable sharing. Yeah. And if you not. That's
Speaker:also fine. Yeah. Thank you. I have. I've learned that even eight years out, when
Speaker:I go through it, moment by moment, I kind of go back to it. So
Speaker:let's not go back. I won't go back to the whole thing, but I will
Speaker:tell you that it wasn't a. That it was a cauterizing iron.
Speaker:So that's kind of like. Imagine a. Like a
Speaker:pen. It's a pen that's, like, really hot, and
Speaker:when you draw along the skin, it kind of slices open. I'm sorry. I know.
Speaker:It's like I could feel it. I know. And imagine it here without anesthetic.
Speaker:Like, if any woman has ever been lasered. Yeah. Their bikini line
Speaker:lasered. I started doing laser, but like we did
Speaker:not finish. Yeah, it's really intense, so. And even then they usually put numbing cream
Speaker:or say take a Tylenol. No, that was the whole point. Was it like a
Speaker:slow. Yeah, it was like this.
Speaker:So like faster than a tattoo. But like that was one line.
Speaker:And there was like 1, 2, 3, I don't know how many lines. 15 lines,
Speaker:whatever. But in between each line, Lauren, who was leading me through it was like
Speaker:having me recite some thing that I guess Keith had
Speaker:written about. Like started with master. Would you brand me? Would be an honor. So
Speaker:I. And this came out later in the trial, by the way, where
Speaker:there's so many little details. A thumb drive was found where Keith
Speaker:Ranieri was recorded, because he recorded everything as a narcissist
Speaker:for his library of genius. Telling Alice and Mac to
Speaker:have them put their hands above them so it looks like
Speaker:sacrificial. And to ask to be branded so it
Speaker:appears consensual. Something along those lines. So he knew
Speaker:that he needed to make it look consensual so he could never be
Speaker:busted. Right. Oh my gosh. So I was a
Speaker:masturbating brand. And then in between each line it would be like, you know, I'm
Speaker:committed to. I don't remember what I was reciting. Cause I was completely out
Speaker:of body. Like I was even telling jokes and like trying to laugh it off
Speaker:and try to just do anything. I could disassociate. Totally disassociated. Associated,
Speaker:I was thinking. And then to get through it because I was. I think I
Speaker:wasn't the first and I wasn't the last. I would say like the third or
Speaker:the fourth of the women. And I watched what happened to the other women. And
Speaker:the more you moved, the longer it took and the more painful it looks. I
Speaker:just was like, I'm gonna stay still. I'm gonna think about my baby, who's three
Speaker:at the time, like giving birth to him. And I just went into a
Speaker:completely other state. And it's like, I've given birth. I can do
Speaker:this. I just need to get it over with. That's what I was thinking. And
Speaker:I think the whole thing for me took about 25 minutes. Some women took 45
Speaker:minutes. I think the first woman took closer to an hour. It was a long
Speaker:time. Awful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.
Speaker:And I. I can't really go back to it cuz I will start crying. But
Speaker:it was. We don't need to then we're not going to go there. It was
Speaker:very painful. It was like. Yeah, it's like your. Your skin's being sliced open. The
Speaker:other women that were with you that day that also got branded before and after
Speaker:you, are they still in next? Two of the women are not. And two of
Speaker:the women are. And have you talked to the two that aren't? Yes. Yeah. Did
Speaker:they also have their scars removed? It's okay if you don't
Speaker:know. I don't know. I know that I told them about it because there
Speaker:was some anonymous donor who paid for it, and I don't even
Speaker:know who that is. Thank you, donor. Thank you, donor, for paying for my scar
Speaker:removal. Cause it was like a two or $3,000 plastic surgery.
Speaker:That's amazing that someone did that. I know, I know. I really
Speaker:appreciated it. There's some really good people. There's some really good people. I mean, honestly,
Speaker:the people that have come out of the woodwork. Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's
Speaker:talk about the good. Let's, like, counteract the. The. Yes. Okay. Let's talk about
Speaker:the by by. Let's talk about the good. The good. Like, so,
Speaker:like, not the good that came out of it besides, like, your two beautiful children
Speaker:and your husband. Yes. And like the lessons learned and where you are today.
Speaker:Let's talk about the good people that have come out. Like the person who anonymously
Speaker:donated to help have that. That person. I wish I could find them.
Speaker:I should ask my lawyer because my lawyer knows who the person is, I think.
Speaker:Well, then you could. Yeah. Or just like, even you don't. Maybe you never know,
Speaker:but you write them something. Yeah. Or post it and maybe they're following. Who knows?
Speaker:The people that came out to do the vow were my. Are the first,
Speaker:what we call our guardian angels. Because they really understood and
Speaker:wanted to understand how it goes from, you know, a group of
Speaker:humanitarians trying to make the world better to sex slaves and
Speaker:branding female empowerment, which is actually
Speaker:a black male pyramid scheme. Talk about MLMs.
Speaker:So the people that made that I feel forever indebted to, like,
Speaker:it could have gone the way of Tiger King. I could have been the next
Speaker:Carol. What's her name? Carol Baskin. It could have been Carole Baskin. You know what
Speaker:I mean? Like, I didn't know how it was gonna be perceived or anything.
Speaker:So I'm very grateful to those people. I mean, there's totally
Speaker:random things, like a woman who saw how stressed I was and,
Speaker:like, gave me a facial. You know what I mean? But that's like, those little.
Speaker:That's not even a little thing. It's like. It's like someone smiling at you. Yeah.
Speaker:Or come just. Do people come up to you? Like, I saw all the time.
Speaker:And what's. Like, kind of some of the things that people say to you. And
Speaker:also, if you're. If you see Sarah and you're like, what do I say to
Speaker:her? Cause, like, wow, she's so strong. And, like, I don't want to make it
Speaker:awkward. Like, what do you. Like, what do people say to you? And, like, what.
Speaker:I'm totally open to people saying things to me. It means a lot to me
Speaker:when they do. Usually it's something like,
Speaker:sorry to bother you, but I just. I just want to tell you, I saw
Speaker:the vow, and I'm like, what you did was amazing, and I'm really proud of
Speaker:you guys for getting out. It's like, more of an observer. And other times, it's
Speaker:like, people freak out a little bit, like they're seeing
Speaker:somebody super famous. Oh, my God, I can't believe I'm seeing you, like, in person.
Speaker:This is so crazy. And then they tell my. Tell me their story. Like, I
Speaker:was in Jehovah's Witness or in the Mormon Church, and I. Then I
Speaker:saw the vow, or I'm listening to your podcast, and it's helping me heal from
Speaker:blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So that happens a fair bit. Just
Speaker:strangers and always in totally random places, and almost
Speaker:always on days where Nippy and I are like. Because sometimes it's draining. I'm not
Speaker:gonna lie. The podcast, as much as I love it, and it's very fulfilling almost
Speaker:all the time. Sometimes it's. It's hard, and it's. It's like. Well, it's
Speaker:a lot of energy. It's a lot of energy. It's like you're talking. I get
Speaker:it. Because I'm in a space where I'm always talking about my story and
Speaker:resilience and hearing other people's stories, and it's an energy exchange. Yeah.
Speaker:So it can be a lot. It can be a lot. And look, same with
Speaker:you. And it's like sometimes you're just, like, out doing your own thing,
Speaker:thinking about cotton candy and, like, hopscotch or whatever. Yeah. And then someone
Speaker:brings it up. You're like, oh, it just pulls you. Back to that spot. And
Speaker:that is very positive. But I think generally, like, with the podcast being,
Speaker:like, talking about people's trauma and talking about, like, the worst times of their lives,
Speaker:though there's days where Nippy and I are like, you know, how long we keep
Speaker:doing this? I can't even tell you. This happened three times where that we're having
Speaker:the conversation, like, walking on the seawall, and then someone stops
Speaker:us, and they're like, your work has changed my life. And then
Speaker:we're like, okay. I mean, we believe in. I
Speaker:don't say God. That's not my thing. But like the universe, Source. There's no
Speaker:coincidence. There's no coincidence. Yeah. And that's my spiritual journey. Now, I'm
Speaker:not part of a group. I don't believe in any particular dogma or religion, but
Speaker:there's. When those signs come to me, I believe, I
Speaker:feel them. You know what I mean? And I'm like, okay, well, I guess we're
Speaker:gonna keep going. You know, I think that's a really important thing
Speaker:because the work that you're doing, it's very important work. And
Speaker:it's very personal. And it's. Sometimes I don't know how you
Speaker:feel, but sometimes I'm like, oh, how am I gonna keep going and talking about
Speaker:this? And I always, like, every so often, not always, but I question,
Speaker:like, what's my purpose? Should I completely stop doing this? And then someone sends
Speaker:that message about how something I shared or did or
Speaker:said changed their life. Yes. And it's like those people
Speaker:stopping you or people stopping me or messaging me, like,
Speaker:keeps me going. Yeah. It fuels you, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So you interview a lot of people about cults. Yes.
Speaker:Now I just want to ask you. Cult questions far away. Which cult have
Speaker:you found the most fascinating besides, like, I mean, maybe you don't even find
Speaker:Nexium fascinating, but the ones. Ones that you've learned more about, which one just
Speaker:fascinates you the most, like.
Speaker:That'S. Or intrigues you? Intrigues me.
Speaker:I mean, they're all so interesting. I think the one that. It's just maybe a
Speaker:top of mind because the episode dropped this week about the Source family, which
Speaker:was like one of the original kind of like when people think of sort
Speaker:of the stereotypical hippie, you know, white robes, long
Speaker:hair, free love. It's called the Source Family, started
Speaker:by Father Yod. And. Yeah, follow your odd. And he
Speaker:was like. He had a restaurant in LA in the 70s that was like the
Speaker:health food place to go to. And like, all the famous people went there and
Speaker:like, Cher was there and Woody Allen and like, I just so much. I'm fascinated.
Speaker:I just kind of wish I was in it. Like, I wish I was. I
Speaker:wish I could Be in it. Okay, well, that was my next question. Like, if
Speaker:you can join any cult that you've learned about that one. Yeah, for sure. I
Speaker:would. I mean, I would have been hooked by the food. Like, when they described
Speaker:the food that they ate, I was like, that's my cult. Like, healthy. Yeah, super
Speaker:healthy. And like, I'm not. I'm not vegetarian, but just at a time
Speaker:when, you know, people were eating microwave dinners and then here comes, like, fresh
Speaker:salads and eating off the land and organic and all that stuff. And they were
Speaker:doing yoga and they were doing meditation and they were doing cold plunging. Like, the
Speaker:lifestyle. I loved the having sex with the leader
Speaker:part. Not as much. I don't want to do that. Yeah. And which is also
Speaker:for your listeners. Did not have sex with Vanguard, just to be clear on that.
Speaker:And other people did, and, you know, that's their journey. And that's not my story.
Speaker:And probably why I can be so public, because I don't have. I
Speaker:don't carry that same shame. You know what I mean? And there's a
Speaker:lot to be said about how leaders like Keith
Speaker:Renieri keep people in, and then they keep people, even when they
Speaker:leave, keep them quiet, because they don't want to say, yeah, I did
Speaker:xyz. That's like, what's happening with a certain hip hop.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Which. Well, it's happening right now. Yeah.
Speaker:I'm just. Yeah, I. You know. Well, I don't know, like, if. I mean,
Speaker:I'd be honored if, like, Diddy found me and, like, served me, but, like,
Speaker:also not. Yeah. I mean, but, like, I'm gonna be. Sued then, because I've been
Speaker:talking about podcast. Yeah. Well, it's just. It's. It's so relevant and people.
Speaker:It is. It is. It is. And, like, it's interesting. Textbook to me. What?
Speaker:Yeah. As I started learning about that, it felt
Speaker:culty. Yeah. 100%. And when people say
Speaker:things like, why didn't Cassie leave? You know, and why. How could she
Speaker:stay? And she's texting him, you know, hey, can't wait for the next
Speaker:one. People saw my texts as I was leaving and. Or even having
Speaker:doubts, it would look like I was 100% on board, but I was doing what
Speaker:I needed to. To be okay. Yeah. And to keep everybody happy while I figured
Speaker:my shit out. So I don't. I could. I. To me, it is
Speaker:textbook. It's really a shame that he did not get
Speaker:acquitted or not get convicted. Convicted. Thank you.
Speaker:Of all the. The worst things. And his lawyer, by the way was also the
Speaker:vanguard's lawyer. Did you know that? Yeah. Sean Combs. I don't
Speaker:even call him P. Diddy. Sean Combs, lawyer is or was Keith Renary's
Speaker:lawyer. And so he did better. He did better. He did better. But I also
Speaker:think that Sean has very. Is much more powerful.
Speaker:Sean is much more powerful. Yeah. Keith Renieri is just a schlubby dude,
Speaker:in my opinion. Yeah, I don't. I don't disagree.
Speaker:So did I answer your question? Yeah. I asked
Speaker:you which cult you would. Join, and then we want to. But, like. So, okay,
Speaker:you would join that. What about, like, you just kind of learned about that cult
Speaker:or shared on your podcast what other cults are like, ones that you're
Speaker:like. That looks like a lot of fun. I would join that because you were
Speaker:in, like, more of a personal professional development. But there's so many other cults that
Speaker:are like, commune style or like, they party a lot. Like, there's.
Speaker:There's a lot of cults that started off with the
Speaker:communes. Like, I'm all about people being together, and I love the idea of
Speaker:a commune. Yeah, I love it. I have lived on a kibbutz, you
Speaker:know. Yeah. I was in Israel for 10 months after high school and actually lived
Speaker:on two different kibbutzim, and that was a wonderful experience.
Speaker:And I don't know if you know this, that the founder of WeWork
Speaker:grew up on a kibbutz, apparently. I watched the documentary. Yeah. Yeah. I
Speaker:love my documentary. Me too. I'm a childless, sober, parentless bird
Speaker:watcher. I watch a lot of documentaries. Remind me to tell you a funny story
Speaker:later about bird watching. Okay. I heard that in your other podcast. Anyway, I'm
Speaker:blanking on his name right now. Whatever. Whatever. That guy, a
Speaker:tall guy. Adam. Adam. Yeah. Thank you. He. I
Speaker:don't know if he grew up in. Okay. But spent some time in Okiboots and
Speaker:he wanted that feeling for WeWork. When he described what he wanted out of WeWork,
Speaker:I'd be like, sign me up. Yeah, I want to have kombucha on tap. I
Speaker:want to have communal spaces. I want to.
Speaker:I don't know if you saw wow. Wow. Country about. Of course I did. Yes.
Speaker:The way that looked at the beginning. It looks like a dream. Yeah. I love
Speaker:being. Except for the orange. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I really.
Speaker:I'd like to break it up a little bit, but it gets. Obviously there's way
Speaker:worse stuff. In fact, sidebar, and this is in Our. In our book also, Wild,
Speaker:Wild country didn't even get to the root of, like, how bad things were. They
Speaker:were sterilizing women. They were so much underage sex,
Speaker:rampant, rampant abuse. So, like, way worse. Anyway,
Speaker:sidebar. But up until that stuff,
Speaker:the dance parties, meditation, it looks fun.
Speaker:So I think that's probably my. My most susceptibility is community
Speaker:commune, being feeling part of something, belonging. Yeah.
Speaker:And then that's a lot of people, too, who are looking for that. Right. So
Speaker:don't join a cult. Go to a kibbutz. Yeah, well, I don't know. Also,
Speaker:maybe not. Not right now. No. No. Maybe in the future, you head down the
Speaker:road. What does resilience or being
Speaker:resilient AF mean to you?
Speaker:Well, I guess it means having gone through
Speaker:this shit show of an experience and coming up the other side
Speaker:stronger. And I don't want to say that in, like, a
Speaker:platitude. Like, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Like, there's something about that that
Speaker:bothers me. Like, you don't have to have that kind of
Speaker:experience to be stronger. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to. I
Speaker:don't want to put that out there. It's more just like, how did I.
Speaker:How did I incorporate that terrible
Speaker:lesson into my view of the
Speaker:world and keep going, I guess, is my way of
Speaker:describing being resilient. AF does that. Yeah, right. There's no wrong answer. There's no wrong
Speaker:answer. Oh, good. That wasn't a test. Thank you.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it's. It's interesting. Like, do you find that people
Speaker:were using that word to like, wow, you're so strong. You're so
Speaker:resilient? The word that I got a lot was brave,
Speaker:which didn't really feel right
Speaker:to me because, I don't know, I just was like. I mean,
Speaker:I guess it was because it was scary and I did it, but it was
Speaker:all. It was like, this is what has to be done. Like,
Speaker:there was a brief moment where I was like, before. And this is before we
Speaker:really knew how bad Keith was and, like, the magnitude of his abuses. But there
Speaker:was a brief moment where I was like, I'm going to leave quietly
Speaker:so I don't get sued. Which they tried to do anyway, of course. Try to
Speaker:leave quietly and just go on with my life, and they can just keep doing
Speaker:what they're doing. And then the more and more that I found out what was
Speaker:actually happening, I was like, I can't. Especially because I had brought so many people
Speaker:in I'd been such a loud endorser of
Speaker:Keith for so many years. Vanguard. Yeah. So it
Speaker:didn't. It wasn't like, I'm so brave. I have to do this. It was. It
Speaker:was. We gotta, like, warn everybody. You. Yeah. You
Speaker:want to take care of your people? Yeah, I want to take care of my
Speaker:people. Yeah. And. And the people. You did and I did. And I'm still,
Speaker:to be honest, like. You'Re going to be doing this. Well, this is your legacy
Speaker:is kind of taking care of. Well, I mean, it's not
Speaker:the only legacy. I believe you could have multiple ones. Thank you. I hope so.
Speaker:I will help you do other things. But that's also one of the reasons why
Speaker:we decided to write the book, is that if we do end up winding things
Speaker:down in this field, we will have the book to be like, here's what we
Speaker:learned. Please, 100%, please read this. And so let's.
Speaker:When's the book coming out? Books coming out in the fall. Amazing. Yeah. I'll know
Speaker:more in two weeks. How this edit's going, but we're saying late fall, hopefully for
Speaker:Christmas. We want to be a Christmas gift for those young people going off
Speaker:to college or people who are beach reads. I don't know if it's a beach
Speaker:read. Maybe it is. It is. Why not? You're on vacation over Christmas break,
Speaker:you. Read on the beach. You want to learn about cults and how they. That's
Speaker:like me. I like those, like, Rockstar autobiographies and like cult books. Oh, great.
Speaker:What's your favorite rock star autobiography. So I used to love. I
Speaker:still do, but I. Scar tissue. Anthony Kiedis. I love the
Speaker:Red Hot Chili Peppers. I saw them once live. I've seen so many times.
Speaker:Yeah, like four or five times. If I were to join a cult, it'd be
Speaker:the Red Hot Chili Peppers cult. Yeah. As long as they don't charge me.
Speaker:Still can't afford to join a cult. Just kidding. Yes, I can. Yes, you can.
Speaker:Abundance is coming. I mean, the amount of money I've spent on tickets. I'm in
Speaker:the cult. Yeah, I might as well be, but. So Flea from Red Hot Chili
Speaker:Peppers actually wrote a really phenomenal book called Acid for the Children.
Speaker:And it's a. It's. He's a really poetic, prolific writer.
Speaker:And it's a very well done, beautiful book. And that's my favorite
Speaker:one. Okay, I will check that out. I listened to it and it's him reading
Speaker:it. Really? Oh, that's great. So that. That's my
Speaker:favorite one. So your book's coming out in the fall. Yeah.
Speaker:We're very proud of it. It is a labor of love. We didn't have my
Speaker:first book. I did it with a co writer. This is just me and Nippy.
Speaker:Yep. Bonding. Bonding. It's been very difficult. It's so hard to
Speaker:write with somebody else, let alone your husband that you also work with. But, you
Speaker:know, we're getting through it. And what else? Like, I know you. You have
Speaker:always. It seems like you always have cool things on the go. What
Speaker:else is going on in your world? Are you working on anything else for us
Speaker:to watch on the tube? Is this still called the tube? The boob tube?
Speaker:No. That really dates you. The screen. What's on the stream? I am 100
Speaker:years old. You're so old. Old. You look great for
Speaker:100 years old. I have stopped acting. I would go back to
Speaker:acting. My joke with my agent is offers only because I don't want to audition.
Speaker:Yeah, offers only. So send her. Like, Hallmark's missing. You call me
Speaker:Hallmark or Lifetime or
Speaker:whatever. I. I do. I would act again. I do love. I do miss acting.
Speaker:I'm getting that itch. I just don't miss auditioning. And I'm just too old for
Speaker:the hustle, you know, I don't feel like I. I wanna. You've also earned.
Speaker:Earned your place. Like, I'm kind of. Not really. I mean, sort of, I guess.
Speaker:But you. You've. You're in a place where people. Not everyone knows
Speaker:your name. You're not like a Angelina Jolie. Which is fine. Which is
Speaker:fine. Or Kardashian. But like, in the cult space.
Speaker:Yes, but in the cult space. But also like you. Because I.
Speaker:I was, like, looking up, like, I know you, but I was looking some stuff
Speaker:up and I was like, you have an IMDb and you've been on the screen
Speaker:many times, whether it's in the Vow or Hallmark movies,
Speaker:so. And like, you are with your podcast and everything, you're doing, like, you're
Speaker:constantly in the world, so it's not like you're hiding
Speaker:and people, you know, have to try and find. No, I'm easily accessible. I'm a
Speaker:DM away. Yeah. So producers, directors, like, yeah, she's ready. I'm
Speaker:ready to go give her an offer. I never stopped doing voiceover, so that. That's
Speaker:been great. And that's been. Yeah, that's been a real gift. In fact, the
Speaker:week I got out of speaking of, like, signs, the week I got of nexium
Speaker:which was my income. I was like, what am I doing? I got a huge
Speaker:campaign for a voice. Two voice companies that I still do
Speaker:voiceover for. And that was like, the week of. And an offer for a
Speaker:Hallmark movie with Andie MacDowell. Amazing. Yeah. So that. So that was. I
Speaker:know it's possible that it just comes, but what else
Speaker:am I doing? I did. Well, I did a TED Talk. It was a couple
Speaker:years ago, but that's still out there. I'm very proud of it. Really. When I'm
Speaker:not doing the podcast or working on the book. I am a mother of
Speaker:two gorgeous boys who are very into baseball, and
Speaker:I love being a sports mom. I live in
Speaker:Atlanta, Georgia, now. I. I'm in that world. It's
Speaker:a steep learning curve. I've learned so much about
Speaker:football. How about m. Dogs? Yeah. You don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker:That's okay. That's fine. I like hot dogs. No, Georgia.
Speaker:The Georgia Bulldogs, people, they go, how about them
Speaker:dogs? Woof, woof. Yeah, it's a whole. Is that a. What team? Is that
Speaker:Georgia? No, the sports. Football. Football, football,
Speaker:football. I know. I'm the same way with it. That, like, I know hockey. I
Speaker:don't. Yeah. Hockey is irrelevant. So you hang out with your family. You're working on
Speaker:a book, which I cannot wait to read, and your podcast, and you put out
Speaker:a lot of episodes. We're always on. We're always on on Mondays and
Speaker:Thursdays. So we are on a lot. And that's full time. Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I'm really excited, and I'm excited that you are going to be
Speaker:featured in our book, Resilient af. Skin Deep Stories. Oh, my
Speaker:goodness. I'm so excited. Even though I don't have a tattoo. That's okay. Skin
Speaker:Deep Stories. Skin Deep Stories. That's amazing. You have a Skin Deep Story. I do.
Speaker:It is a tattoo book, but it's not like. I mean, I make the rules.
Speaker:And I was like, I wanted to put you in the book. Okay. So
Speaker:here you are. I love it. And I think it's. I think it's
Speaker:really beautiful because it's gonna be around the same, like, just after you launch your
Speaker:book. Oh, amazing. So. And, you know, it's. We're launching that book in early
Speaker:December. Great. I mean, you're gonna. You know, we do a billboard in Times Square
Speaker:and we do an event, if you want to come. I'd love to. And.
Speaker:And I guess, like, before we wrap up, do you have anything else you want
Speaker:to Share with anyone. Like, what's your advice for someone
Speaker:who right now is like, oh, my God, I think I'm in a cult.
Speaker:Well, I guess definitely read this, the book that's coming. You can pre order it
Speaker:now, which is amazing. Even though we don't have a cover design yet, you can
Speaker:actually pre order it and we will get a signed copy. And wait, how
Speaker:do we pre order it on my website, saraedmunson.com book
Speaker:in the show notes. Yeah, perfect. And then there's a button say, pre order the
Speaker:next book. Which is so funny because we don't even have the COVID design. But,
Speaker:you know, build a plane while. You fly it, girlfriend. Yes, but it's, it's
Speaker:written and it's, it's 70,000 words and it's like very
Speaker:important to me. But if the. Until the book's ready, you can go to
Speaker:our website or lilbookhealthy.com resources and there's
Speaker:a whole bunch of things there now that like, lead to,
Speaker:you know, checklists of like, do you think you're in a cult? There's a great
Speaker:TED talk on there. Not, not mine, which I do think is pretty good, but
Speaker:another one about how cults operate and kind of gives a template
Speaker:that people can look at. And anyone who's in a group will check, check, check.
Speaker:And I think the main advice is if you're wondering if your group is a
Speaker:cult, it's probably something you really want to look at. Even in
Speaker:a lot of us, including people like myself and Nexium, are like, yeah, it's a
Speaker:cult. It's a group of happy, successful people. It's like my. A success.
Speaker:It's a success cult. Like, there's nothing bad here. Right?
Speaker:So unfortunately, the word cult is thrown around a lot and
Speaker:not saying what's bad specifically. And the list will
Speaker:say, you know, there's a bait and switch. We say it's one thing and it's
Speaker:actually another. You know, it's a charismatic leader who's exploiting its members. It's,
Speaker:you know, cutting off family members. There's certain behaviors that the groups
Speaker:do across different types of, like
Speaker:controlling your thought, controlling your behaviors, controlling your information. If you
Speaker:look at all those things and you look at the list, it doesn't have to
Speaker:be all the things. It can even be one of the things. Right. It's like,
Speaker:do you want to be in a group that tells you to cut off your
Speaker:family and friends? Right. That's not healthy. No. So if
Speaker:you're having that wonder if is it healthy or not? And is it. Is it
Speaker:a cult or not? Take a look at some of those lists. But, like, ultimately,
Speaker:do not go to the leadership and ask them if it's a cult.
Speaker:Yeah. Go find someone who's left, find out why
Speaker:they left and understand their grievance. And if
Speaker:the leadership has talked about that person as being crazy or just like
Speaker:a woman scorned, big red flag or Google
Speaker:is blank a cult, you will find out.
Speaker:And there's usually lots of people writing about it now, whatever the
Speaker:group is. I never did that with NXIVM. Now, this is in 2005, before
Speaker:we were so reliant on the Internet. And the stuff you Googled then wasn't nearly
Speaker:as bad as what you find now. But you can find a lot on the
Speaker:Internet. But don't tell the pastor, don't tell your upline, don't tell the leadership,
Speaker:don't ask your coach. Talk to someone who's left. If you're
Speaker:wondering. That's my big piece of advice. That's a really important piece of advice.
Speaker:Yeah. Because you don't want to be on their radar as a questioner. Right.
Speaker:Oh, my gosh. And like, again, if
Speaker:you think it's a culture, it might be a cop. Well, it's probably you.
Speaker:Probably trust your instincts. Yeah. And. Yeah. And
Speaker:so listen to her podcast because, like, I love it.
Speaker:And it's like, I get to hang out with you guys. Thank you so much.
Speaker:But not while you drive. Yeah, don't do it while you drive. I'm so sorry
Speaker:that may have participated in an accident for you. It's okay. I was fine. I
Speaker:ended up in a ditch sideways. I could have been worse. The cops were like,
Speaker:you must have, like, some serious team of angels looking out for you. I'm like,
Speaker:oh, if you only knew. Oh, yeah, if you only knew.
Speaker:Thank you so much for spending time with me. Thank you for making this happen.
Speaker:It's so great to be in person and to, like, actually connect with you. It's
Speaker:so much better than Zoom. So much better than Zoom. I love this. And to
Speaker:you out there who watch this and listen to this, just remember, it's
Speaker:okay to not be okay. And if you are in a cult, you can
Speaker:leave. And you're not going to have to do it alone. There are resources out
Speaker:there, communities out there. Let us be that lighthouse in the
Speaker:storm for you. And just remember, you are resilient, afraid.
