What does dating look like when you’ve spent years hiding who you are and how you love?

In this special episode of Odejuma, Harry is in conversation with Uche, Kachi, and Obinna, two who moved to the United States as adults and one who grew up in Houston, about dating as gay Nigerian men in America. They share how they came to accept themselves and what it has taken to let someone else in.

They talk about growing up in the church, the pressure to marry and have children, and what it means to find love with another Nigerian. Moving somewhere new doesn’t automatically erase old fears. Sometimes they show up in a glance around the room before a kiss, or in the distance between wanting a relationship and feeling ready for one.

They don’t agree on everything, including how much patience to give someone still finding their way, but they all want the same thing: to love openly, build a life with someone, and feel at home with each other.

Connect with Uche on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/uche_onwa/

Learn about Uche’s organization here: https://www.bdlinitiative.org/

Connect with Obinna on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/igwe_obinna1/

Obinna’s DJ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/djanniboglobal/

Connect with Kachi on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kachinna_/

Connect with Harry on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harryitie

For more information on Harry, visit: https://www.harryitie.com/

Get Odejuma delivered straight to your inbox, alongside personal reflections on the episode, by subscribing to the Substack here: https://odejuma.substack.com/

Support my work: https://buymeacoffee.com/harryitie

Hi, my name is Hari Tie and welcome to Odejumma.

Odejuma is an ishakiri farewell that loosely translates to till tomorrow.

But for me, I look at it as a promise that there is so much more in life to look forward to.

And this interview driven storytelling podcast is rooted in that promise.

So as you take the time to listen, I want you to feel that as we go deeper with folks from across the black diaspora, exploring the adventures, resilience, joy, and the ordinary moments that change their lives, that you would have a good hearty laugh or, or you find something to sit with.

Because there's power in the stories of everyday people.

And these stories are worth telling.

Hey, y'.

All.

Welcome to another episode of Odejumma.

I am super excited about this one because today I am having a panel discussion and we are talking dating as queer Nigerians.

This is going to be such a good conversation and I have assembled the perfect panel to dive right in and, and have this conversation.

So please help me welcome.

I got uche catchy obinna.

How y' all doing?

Amazing.

Hello.

Hello.

I'm doing well.

You're doing.

You're doing well.

It is.

Summer is over.

We are in fall.

How is fall treating y'?

All?

How y' all feeling?

Just got back from Houston, did Everyday people.

It was lit.

Me and my twin brother, we were on the feed and they story, it was lit.

Houston was a time back to Atlanta, back to reality.

Well, I don't know if it's still summer here though.

It's still summer for you.

Uche.

It's still summer here.

The weather is still very warm.

People are still wearing their shorts.

We haven't seen the leaf change colors yet.

So.

Still enjoying the last, you know, last week or two.

Yeah, I know it's.

I know you're already feeling full, right?

It's fall around me, but I'm still in summer.

Okay, why are you still in summer?

Why aren't you moving with the season?

Because even in the winter, it's still summer for me because I still go out to party, go to the club with my shorts on.

Okay.

Okay.

Even in the cold, you gotta, you gotta stay hot.

You gotta stay ready.

You know, know.

I'm here for it.

I'm here for it.

Well, well, thank you all for coming on for having this conversation with me.

We're going to be talking about dating as queer Nigerians.

All four of us are queer folks who are currently living in the US and one thing that I have come to understand and realize is that a lot of People, you know, navigating dating and as someone who is from a different ethnic background can sometimes be challenging.

Right?

But before we dive right into the nuances of dating, as a gay Nigerian, I want to hear from y', all, like, when did y' all start to come into your sexuality?

Right?

When, when did you.

When did you realize that, okay, fine, you know what?

As someone who is born and raised in Niger, you have to show up in a certain way.

You have to act like, you know, being gay is not who we are.

But for you personally, when did you decide to reject all those norms and decide that, okay, fine, I want to leave freely and, you know, be my best gay self.

I think I've always known, obviously I've always known that I'm, you know, different.

But in terms of coming to, like, the realization and acceptance, full acceptance, I would say when I moved to the US because back in Nigeria, most people would identify as bisexual, even though we know we're not bisexual, you know, so I was one of those people that identify as bisexual while I was living in Nigeria.

So I never really come to the full realization and acceptance of, you know, okay, this is why I'm.

Until I moved to the US in 2017.

So that was when I had to, like, you know what?

This is me.

You gotta either accept it or not.

Okay, Shout out to that patchy.

So whenever I talk about acceptance, for me it's a whole journey.

It's going back as a child.

I knew I was.

I knew I was gay, I was gay.

There's no need of saying it took me years, but it was like, okay, only enough to read.

That was just the journey.

Because at 13, I was.

I knew that this is me because I started playing with my, you know, boys.

16, 17, 18.

And then after college, I was like, okay.

I think it's too much for me to deal with because then I became more in church and I was ordained a minister.

So that was a whole struggle balancing being a minister in Winners Chapel and being a gay man.

So I tried the denying part of it, whereby I said, okay, this is not me.

Tried for a whole six months.

It was a disaster that almost became suicidal.

And then I kind of accepted it at the end of the day because my struggle almost connotes to the time when Nigeria passed the same sex Marriage Prohibition act.

Because for me then it was like, this is none of my business anymore.

That was what I was telling myself.

That was the lies I was telling myself.

But one day I went back to it again, and that's been Me, but coming out openly and accepting it, like where I don't give a fuck about what people say anymore was 2017, June, and that was the first time I actually made a real post about being gay openly.

I was still living in Nigeria.

I had embraced it and I didn't care anymore.

And that was when I had, like, my first real confrontation with my mom because, you know, she kept talking about it and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Obina for you.

And, you know, I relate to Kachi's story a lot.

You know, just even just the name that Kachi, like, I can.

There are many thorough lines with your story and mine.

Also, I went to Covenant University, which was, you know, run by Rena's chapel.

So I know the struggle of wanting to be.

Wanting to serve God because I wanted to be a pastor as well at some point.

So I kind of know what that feeling is.

Right.

But for Obina, you were.

You're a first generation Nigerian born and raised in the United States of America.

What was that like navigating?

Because you are in a country that is, you know, where, you know, at the time when you were coming up, you know, it was becoming, you know, socially accessible to be queer.

So how are you navigating that piece growing up?

Yeah, I mean, I can remember as early as 4 years old that I was, quote, unquote, different.

And it's funny because I think about the conversation that you and I had like five years ago on your first podcast, right?

And you know, I did all the boy stuff, like, you know, playing sports, action figures, getting dirty outside, all of that video games.

Then the older I got, if I fast forward to maybe the end of elementary, start of middle school, you know, they pass out those pamphlets when they're doing sex education and about puberty, and they hand all the boys one that says, girls, girls, girls.

And I was like, not quite.

So I remember, you know, going into middle school and just dealing with all the feelings and, you know, doing the sex education classes, learning about health and, you know, physiology, biology and being like, okay, well, maybe it'll kick in for me later.

But it never did.

And then, you know, if I fast forward to college, I just remember, like, I was heavily involved in, like, church, well, high school and college, heavily involved in shirts, singing in the choir.

I was in a group and in that group there was another guy that was in the group and crazy thing, come to find out he's also gay.

Now, he doesn't put it on his social media, but he is very, like, prominent out there or whatever.

And then I remember learning, you know, just more about myself and being involved in like, Nigerian Student association and other organizations in undergrad that were predominantly African and just seeing the impact of, okay, how am I going to be able to keep these two things together?

The whole like, gay and Nigerian thing?

Then I started to realize, especially when I turned 22, I'm 36 now.

Like, there's no way that I'm going to be able to keep these things together.

And as time went on, I had to separate myself from, you know, my predominantly Nigerian friend group.

And I, like, I was talking about it with my cousins this weekend and one other person, like how I don't know anybody from undergrad anymore because I just remember all the hints of homophobia, transphobia in undergrad and things that people would say.

I'm like, yo, this ain't gonna work.

But, you know, fast forward to, you know, telling my twin brother when we were 22, my parents dragging me out the closet at 25, and then now just living my life, you know, short version of a long story.

But yeah, yeah.

And it's just a very beautiful thing to see everybody's journey to our self acceptance.

It feels like everybody starts out in the church, right?

You start out in the church and then you have an idea of what your life is going to look like as someone who is going to be a. Oh, man.

You know, you're gonna grow up, you're gonna go to school, get your degree, marry a woman, have children and all that kind of stuff.

Now that, you know, you're coming to terms with who you are, and now you are now, you know, trying to live your best career life, and now it's time to date.

You know, knowing that that was the background and that was the imagery and that was the idea of what love was supposed to look like.

You know, what were the initial challenges that you were going through when that.

It's like now, okay, now I'm, I'm.

I know that I'm gay.

I'm open to my queerness.

And now I have to now start dating men.

What does that look like?

There was a lot of exploration on online.

That was my first thing.

So, like meeting people off of, like, Adam for Adam.

I was late to bgc, so I didn't do bgc, but Adam for Adam.

I met one half Nigerian guy and we talked and that was like the first time I ever met anybody else who was gay.

And of course I was like, yo, I was a little bit afraid because I'm like, okay, well, he has Nigerian roots.

Like, will anyone find out?

But I felt comfortable.

And then little by little, I joined, like, this one website that's no longer present.

It was called Discreet City.

And then that website turned into something called Cypher Avenue, which was like a black gay Facebook.

That's actually where I met some people that you've come across here.

I won't say their names on here because they're not a part of the podcast, but you've met some of those people who are also African or Caribbean, and we're still very cool to this day.

Like, I met them 10 now, 12 years ago.

You know, uche knows one of them very well, and he probably knows who I'm talking about.

But yeah, you know, so online was definitely a big part.

Online was also where I found like a community and those who were like, mentors to me, like my brothers in the life, quote unquote.

You know, I met, you know, other Africans, Caribbeans, and also definitely black American individuals who showed me, like, okay, do this, don't do this, learn about this, learn about anything.

Whether it came to relationships, sex, dating.

You know, I remember when it would kind of be like, something would happen and I would text the group that I was a group text that I'm a part of, like, hey, guys, what do I do about this?

And all of that.

And, you know, I learned and had a lot of support from people online.

And eventually when I left Houston for Florida When I was 25, I went to the Pride center, met a man who's like my black gay dad.

Him and his partner have been together for 35 years, and they taught me a lot as well.

So I really, like, took my time when it came to putting my, you know, dipping my toe in the water, then eventually just putting my whole body in it.

And, yeah, definitely learned a lot.

And, you know, it was slow.

The first time I ever kissed a guy was when I was 27.

That was the first time I kissed anybody.

Like, never had no sex, no nothing.

No nothing.

When I was 27, got kissed on the cheek by women all the time.

Never kissed a woman on the lips.

But the first time I ever kissed a man on the lips, I was 27.

And then the rest happened from there,.

And the rest is history.

How did I feel though?

Your first is a baby is interesting, but how did I.

How did you feel when, you know, you had that kiss?

Did you feel awkward?

Did it feel like, oh, my goodness, it felt like.

Cause, you know, the first time that happened, there's a man that used to live In Atlanta that threw the biggest parties.

He now lives in southern Africa.

Uche knows who that person is.

But I remember this before Uche met that person, and when I went to his house, I was invited.

So me and my twin brother were supposed to go to a game night.

And then we had one of our older African friends hit us up and say, hey, do y' all want to come to this party?

And I'm like, what party?

And he's like, it's an African party.

I was like, is it a gay African party?

He was like, whitson, why does everything have to be gay with you?

And I'm like, listen, I'm trying to find out.

And he said, yes, it is.

And then I was like, okay, bet.

Send the address.

The address was three minutes from my twin brother's house, literally up there the street.

So we literally were like, all right, y', all, we ain't making that game now.

We going to this party.

And I remember at this time, like, I had lost, like, 35 pounds.

Like, the clothes was fitting right.

I was like, period.

Let's pull up, you know?

And I remember when we walked in, it was just nothing but niggas, like, all across.

Oh, can I say the N word?

My bad.

You can say the N word.

But men, kings all across that house.

Afro, Latin, Caribbean, African, Afro, Latin, black American.

Everybody just in the house.

And I met, you know, a lot of different people.

I never met that many people.

And as time went on during the party, I met one Caribbean guy, one African guy, and they were both kind of at me.

And eventually, I guess I went for the Nigerian.

And, you know, I remember walking him outside, and he was like, oh, you know, we got into a scar.

He was like, do you want a mint or gum?

And I was like, oh, no, I don't need it.

And then he took it.

He put it down.

He just was looking at me.

Then I was like, oh, shit.

Oh, my God, he wants to kiss me.

I was so green, you know, I didn't do anything, you know, from before then.

And I remember we shared a kiss.

He went around the cul de sac, came back in front of the host house, we kissed again.

And then we went back.

And then I went back in.

He left.

And I remember just being like, wow.

Like, I really just did that.

Like, this is crazy.

And then as time went on, it just became easier and easier, and I was less inhibited when it came to kissing a guy and doing way more with men as time went on.

So, yeah, okay, shout out to that Catchy.

Is that your story?

Did you wait till 27?

Nice.

No, I'm sorry, I actually started very early.

Okay, I have to go back to memory lane when it comes to meeting men.

I was actually 12 and it wasn't nothing serious.

It was just two little boys playing together, making out.

And then my first real experience was with my neighbor, who today is actually a straight man.

But we started playing by the well side.

We go to take a shower by the well, just get water from the well.

You know how boys back home want to do that.

And little by little, we started touching each other and we started making checking out and we started jerking off together.

And one time we did the real deal.

Yeah, that was when I was still in Port Harcourt.

And so back then I. I just was doing.

I was just living, but I just didn't have a definition of what I was doing.

I just knew I like boys, but I just didn't know, okay, there's, it's gay, it's top, it's bottom, whatever.

I was just leaving.

When I went to high school, I finally met a friend who finally said, okay, this is what we are, this is what we've been doing.

And then I'm gonna introduce it to my friends.

And that's how my story continued going.

We just knew people didn't like what we're doing, so we still try to hide it.

I love the uncompleted buildings.

I used to like the bushes a lot because that was like the safest place to be because people could just assume you're smoking but you're doing your thing.

And so that's how it continued until I actually had my first real boyfriend.

And I was 19 when I had my first real boyfriend.

We dated for two weeks and he broke my heart.

What did he do?

What did he do?

Some of the 19 year old snatched him from me.

And can I be honest with you?

That beef had lived till today.

That beef of then had lived till today.

Me and that other person don't speak.

That's how bad it's been.

Yes.

Where is the person now?

Is he.

Is he in Niger or is he.

In the US for the sake of studying?

They don't know who they are.

I wouldn't disclose their location, but I saw them recently and we see them speak to each other, we just walk past.

Ah, it is well, okay.

With the writers.

That is very interesting.

Like, okay, you started dating when you were 19, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But I'm curious about for you and I'm gonna uche.

I'LL talk about that as well when we get to you.

But like, as someone who is navigating that in a country that becomes very homophobic with three anti gay laws, with, you know, that's forming all that, is there a part of your, part of you that's thinking, okay, how, how am I going to express love to this person regardless of all of these circumstances, regardless of where I'm living and my circumstances and where I'm living?

You know, how are you navigating that in that.

In the Nigerian context?

Yeah.

So basically the last guy I dated before leaving Nigeria, everybody thought we were best friends.

Everybody saw us together, went to gym together.

That was our way of expressing our love.

Gym together.

We played soccer together.

We virtually went to church together.

Like on Sunday we sit next to each other in church and we'll be looking at each other.

We pumped each other.

It's just little things we're doing that, you know, to the rest of the world, these are two adult boys who are besties who tend to just hang around each other.

But to us, that was our love.

We were actually engaged.

We had like a secret engagement.

At a point his siblings started suspecting what was going on.

And one day we were inside just hanging out, just kissing.

His little brother walked in and we stopped.

He goes like, don't worry, I already know a long time ago that this is you and it's fine by me.

Yeah.

And then the little sister found out.

I don't know if she told the mom, but all of a sudden the mom kind of attitude changed.

Not in the bad, but she now became more friendly towards me after those incidents.

So till today, I don't know how if the family got to know, but we were just, you know, we're there, we loved each other.

Everybody knew.

And when I had to deal with the keto issue back in Festac, he got involved was because we've been together for too long and neighbors started, you know, whispering around me like, oh, these two are together.

And this one, you know the word.

They don't use the word gay.

They be like this too.

They're homosexual.

And that was how the whole targeting started happening.

And the breaking into the house and the beating, the exposure and the eviction.

So it was like all accumulating through that.

We were not doing anything openly to bring attention to us.

But if, you know, you know, and at that point in my life, I don't, I don't care what people say or what people do, what people think about me.

I was just living.

And you Know, I didn't care.

Yeah.

So, Uche, let's talk about your own experience.

And I think that Kachi brought up a very strong point about, you know, how just the fact that him being in this relationship with this guy put a target on his back and became a whole keto situation.

Right, For.

For people who don't know what keto is.

Keto is when people find out that you're gay, they come and they harass you and they beat you up, which is very normal in Nigeria.

When people hear that, oh, this person is gay or even suspected to be gay, they don't have to see you do anything.

They can just suspect.

And the next thing you know, your life is turned upside down.

As someone like you, Uche, who was coming up in that.

In that society, in that situation, what was that?

What was loving like for you and being in a relationship like for you in that society?

And how.

And there's a second part to that question.

When you moved here to America, what.

What kind of switched for you and how was it very different, your experience?

I resonate a lot with everything that Kachi is, you know, has shared.

And I feel like, you know, most Nigerians would actually resonate because I feel like, you know, all, like our life is very, very, you know, similar.

I also, you know, grew up.

I didn't say this earlier, but I also grew up in the church, was supposed to be a priest, you know, in the Catholic church.

But I ended up, you know what, I don't want to go to seminary school because I was then struggling with my sexuality.

But a lot of work I just said, you know, resonate with me.

But I think I was 13 years.

Some of this story I actually never shared public.

So I was 13 years when I actually had my first, first, you know, sexual experience.

Before then I had a best friend who, you know, I knew he was gay.

He always tell me and talk to me.

I tell me things about like, you know, being gay and his experiences.

And even when he went to his first gay parties, he was telling me about the experience, how it was.

I was always, you know, intrigued to hear him tell me all those stories and experiences.

And so it got to a point I became very curious because, you know, he had said so much, like, I always want to hang around with him.

I want to hear him talk about things.

And then I became very curious that I wanted to, like, you know, experience.

I wanted to know what it feels like to like, you know, to live this life that my friend is living.

Fast forward to, like, you Know, me moving, started living with a priest in the church, you know, I had to, like, you know, be.

Act a certain way because now I'm like a.

A public figure because I'm in the church.

I'm literally, like, at the altar every day.

Like, you know, morning mass, I have to set up the things for the morning mass.

I have to be there at the altar every Sunday.

I have to, you know, I have to, like, project a certain image.

You know, so many things happen in the church, including when they caught some guys having sex in the church.

They had to, like, you know, ask them to.

To call the names of other people.

They called my.

One of them called my name that I was one of the people that they, you know, that is involved in homosexuality.

I was called.

I had to lie about it.

You know, I was forced to take an oath to swear that I'm not gay or that I'm gay, you know.

To who?

To God or to, like, God?

Yes.

They brought out.

I don't know if you're very familiar with the Catholic doctrine, but they brought out the Blessed sacrament.

And they say that we have to swear in front of the Blessed sacraments if we are gay or not.

For those of us that are denying.

There were so many people that they called their names.

So I had to swear because, again, I would never wanted to, like, you know, to.

For them to know I'm gay, being the fact that I live in the church, I'm a father's boy and all of that.

So a lot happened that I wouldn't get into time, you know.

But then I started dating, like, fast forward some years later, I started, like.

I met someone who was very nice to me.

We started dating.

But the other one thing that actually said that kind of resonate was, you know, he said that someone.

That he dated this guy for two weeks.

And this is very common.

This is very common.

People's boyfriends don't snatch people's boyfriend.

They snatched this, snatched mine.

You know, he.

It was like, okay.

The first real boy I actually had a real good feelings for.

His name was Frank.

We lived, like, next to each other, you know, and it wasn't that far.

I met him.

He was, you know, like, everything you always wanted.

Like, in today's world, I don't know who you're going to equate him with.

Like a football player that's, you know, like everybody's crushing.

He looked really good for his age.

It was amazing.

And I met him.

I'm like, okay.

At first I was this timid Gay man who didn't care about other people.

I was just coming out to my friends, not like coming out gay, like, you know, beginning to meet with other people, like, socially and all that.

And then, boom, he saw me, and then he snatched me off, and I was like, okay.

And then the next day, he's telling me how much he liked me, how he want us to be together, that, you know, he enjoyed talking to me.

And the moment I said yes, we met each other.

We're hanging out like every day for the next two weeks.

The next minute I'm calling you, you no longer answering my phone, and I found out you're with another dude who you met through me.

Yeah.

I want to say one thing that is.

I think one thing is that is unique with our story, is that I could relate to with, is that most Nigerians, like, dating in Nigeria is very different than dating here because, like, in Nigeria, you meet someone, he's already your boyfriend automatically without even getting to know them, like, catches.

I've only known this guy for two weeks, and, you know, he's already calling him his boyfriend.

And it's very like, I had that experience, you know, like, you know, I've been with someone for one week.

He's my boyfriend.

We don't do the, like, you know, the steps of,.

You meet this person, they could be your boyfriend for that day, going forward.

Yeah, that was how we live, right?

Yeah, it's very.

It's.

It's kind of.

It's.

It's funny, you know, in a different way.

But I just love the way we kind of did in Nigeria, you know, you being with someone for a week or two weeks is your boyfriend, you know, inside the house?

Of course, outside, you guys are friends outside?

Yes.

Your brother in Christ, he's your friend, he's your cousin or whatever it is.

But I'm curious about Nada Uche, for example, like now.

Now you are in the U.S. what has dating been like for you?

Now, now you can love on each other.

We can hold hands, we can walk down the street, we can kiss.

What has your dating experience been like since you moved to America?

Yeah.

So living here for.

For a while now, my dating life obviously have changed, you know, from how it was back home.

Now I can understand that.

You know, dating is different.

You have to actually get to know someone before you can call them your boyfriend.

Build that, you know, connection with them.

So I've dated multiple guys, but one thing that has been very kind of steady with me, with all the people that I've Dated has always been that I never really planned to date these people.

I just meet them like, you know, to either build friendship with them.

Most times I just meet them, okay, you know, I like you, we like each other, we want to have sex.

And from having sex, we stayed in touch, you know, first build friendship.

Over time, we start to hang out more and spend time more.

And then over time, we start to develop feelings with.

With each other and we start dating.

You know, obviously we have to have a conversation to be sure that we are, you know, on the same table or so.

That has always been, you know, the thing with me, with all the people that I have, you know, I have.

Dated.

Updated.

Yeah, so it's.

It's definitely.

It's been.

It's been good.

It's been good so far with me, I would say in terms of like, you know, dating here in the United States.

But sometimes, like, I still have.

I'm still like conscious with some of the things that I would do in public.

Like, you know, hold hands or kiss people in public.

I do that.

But sometimes, like, I'm always when I want to do that, most times I have to look around to know, is anybody watching?

Because I still have that like, you know, feeling or trigger that I'm in Nigeria.

Oh, I don't know who is watching.

I don't know who is looking.

But sometimes I would like, you know, consciously say, whoever is watching, I will kiss, I will hold the person.

But subconsciously I'm always like, you know, reminded that, okay, you can do it.

Even with how comfortable I am with my sexuality, there's still certain things that I would like, you know, as do.

I wouldn't really feel comfortable doing in public.

And like, kissing and holding hands, you know, is one of them.

Sometimes I don't.

I would say, fuck it, I don't care.

I would do it, you know.

Yeah.

And I think that it's hard to unlearn those things because you've spent X amount of years of your life, you know, trying to perform heterosexuality when you leave your.

When you leave your house, Right.

And so even though you are in a space where you are free and you can be yourself, there is this thing, this habit of you trying to.

Oh, my God, this is a little awkward, right?

So I think that is practically normal.

Which kind of brings us to my next question.

And I'm going to start with you, Obina, because like, I feel like you, like I said, you first gen living here.

But if you in your journey of dating and, you know, encountering Maybe other Nigerians as well.

Maybe Nigerians who are maybe immigrated here in their late 20s, early 30s, some even in their 40s.

I feel like, what does that, what does that experience be like dating other Nigerians, right?

Whether they are first gen or whether they are like immigrants who move there later in life, what is the experience?

Like, there's a lot of.

There's been a lot of talk that, you know, it is hard dating Nigerians here because of some of the things that Uche has shared because people are still in denial about who they are.

Can you share a little bit more about your experience?

Yeah, like, so I, I joined instagram either in 2017 or 2018.

I remember I was so against it.

I didn't want to join another app.

I wasn't trying to really, like, put myself out there.

But eventually I did.

And then I see, okay, everybody likes to post photos and do videos and stories.

So I just be living my life.

So little by little, I started, you know, like, I first was more so around, like, some Americans, mostly Americans, and some Nigerians and some other Africans.

But there was this viral post on social media.

There was a Nigerian woman, she's heterosexual, but she did a study about homosexuality in Nigeria, talking about the laws being passed.

This one Nigerian, when, like, if you look on Harvard, something like, she did that.

And I remember writing a long comment.

I literally log off, maybe took a nap or something.

Hours later, I have like 20 Nigerians who added me.

I'm like, I don't know who these people are, but eventually, you know, I let them follow me and then they were like, oh, I like what you had to say.

This, that, and the third.

And little by little, I started to get to know more and more Nigerians in the US and abroad.

Then eventually there was one who was consistently, oh, I love how you do this, or you're so cute, or hard eyes or whatever.

And I started to realize, like, okay, so this guy lives in New York City.

So one day he just kept pushing, like, let's do a video chat.

Let's do this.

You're so this or so that.

And you know, one Eurobot demon, like, that's.

But so we met.

I remember, I think the first time we video shot, I was actually at work.

I was working at wellstar, either downtown or East Point.

Rest in peace to one of those.

Because they're gone now.

But we video shot it for a little bit.

Then eventually we video chatted more when I got home.

And I remember being like, okay, like, this guy lives in New York.

I Live in Atlanta.

I was in nursing school at the time.

He was doing a master's in public health at the time.

And I was kind of like, how is this supposed to work?

We're both broke.

Like, we're broke students.

But, you know, eventually I remember, you know, we would just keep talking and all of that.

And then I remember one day he just sent me a screenshot of a flight confirmation and a hotel.

I was like, whoa.

So he eventually flew to Atlanta from New York.

And I remember I was going to school.

I was going to one of my nursing classes at the time, at a statistics class.

I remember, like, it was yesterday.

And I remember he was like, asking for the directions to my school.

I told him where to Uber to.

And I remember in his strong Yoruba accent, he was just like, oh, wow.

Like, oh, my.

You know, whatever.

So we love the Yoruba sidebar.

You said what?

I was like, we love the Eurobas.

I'm like, yeah.

Oh, yeah, listen, I love it all.

So I remember telling him, oh, wait in this one coffee shop on campus until I'm done with my stats class.

So then I remember we finished, you know, and it was just like, crazy.

Like, whoa.

Like, he's actually like here in front of me with his backpack and his carry on luggage.

Probably flew on spirit.

I think he was.

He flew on spirit.

But anyway, we.

We went from campus.

We went from campus.

Listen.

I mean, listen, broke ass students gotta make it work.

So went from Clayton State University and went for a nursing school.

Went from there to one Nigerian restaurant called Buka Buka 2 Southside here in Riverdale in Atlanta.

And, you know, I remember.

I can remember like it was yesterday.

Like, I got the seafood okra and pounded yam.

He got probably jollof rice, I think.

And then we just were chatting a little bit more.

Whatever.

We finished, got in my car and we were leaving the Nigerian restaurant.

And he was just, like, very tired from the flight, studying from the night before, whatever.

So he leaned back in his seat and I remember, like, I had to look for something.

Maybe it was Kleenex or something.

But I remember, like, going into my backseat and eventually, like, my face is like, literally on top of his face.

And then we both just kissed.

It was just like, okay, wow.

Like, this is actually the first time we did something in person.

So then we went to our hotel, this little Ramada Inn, the one that Beyonce talked about and Mood forever, you know, Cheap Beginnings.

Okay, so we went to the Ramada Inn.

And I remember, like, you know, I got My key card.

Open the door.

Maybe it didn't take about a couple of seconds.

It went down.

Okay.

It went down everything.

You know, consummate the relationship.

So then, you know, we, you know, did our thing or whatever.

And then, you know, we just continue to hang out and all of that.

Watching shows, going, you know, showing them around Atlanta.

We hiked Stone Mountain.

We, you know, I think we went to the Belt line.

We just did a whole bunch of other things.

And then after that, you know, my brother met him, and then we went to one party because he actually came down during labor day weekend in 2017.

No, no, 20.

2019.

He came down during Labor Day weekend.

And I remember the same friend that was having the Afro.

African party that I was telling y' all about earlier.

He was like, oh, I'm doing a party.

And I was like, oh, do I bring this person that is just that I'm just now dating?

Like, I don't want any man to take him away from me or whatever, so.

But eventually I was like, okay, let's just go ahead and go.

Because first he was like, he don't want to do it.

He doesn't like being around a whole bunch of Nigerians or whatever.

He felt like it could be messy, whatever.

But we eventually went.

He just got comfortable with it.

We went, and everybody was like, oh, you know, wow, you're a Nigerian with a Nigerian.

How was that?

I want the same thing.

Or whatever.

But, yes, of course, me, I'm secure.

I was like.

Or I thought I was secure.

I let him, you know, gallivant and meet other Africans.

And I did the same thing.

And eventually, you know, huh.

I said, that was the day we met.

I think maybe.

Maybe 2019.

2019.

So, you know, he was around and, you know, meeting other people, and then, cool.

All of that.

We went back to my brother's house, chilled, watched some TV or whatever, went back to our hotel, eventually made the relationship official.

He came back down to Atlanta maybe like three weeks later.

Then I went to New York three, maybe the next month in October.

And, you know, it just got to a point where it was, like, very tumultuous.

And I started to see how, like, my wounds and insecurities came up in his as well.

Because there were things where it was like, like I said again, where he wasn't so much comfortable around Nigerians.

Like when Uche and Kashi were talking about their experiences before, dealing with, like, different experiences with the trauma and dealing with Nigerians before back home, I started to see how that came up for him.

And then I came.

And then it came up for me where it was like, this man was like the childhood version of my father, in a sense, when it came to, like, poor emotional regulation, how he communicated, all of that.

And then me wanting to, like, be validated by my father came up with this man and a whole bunch of other psychological things that we don't have to get into now.

But it led to a point where it was like, okay, I felt like I wasn't getting everything that I needed, and he felt like I was asking for too much.

So I started to see how I was anxious, he was more avoidant.

And as time went on, it was just like a roller coaster up and down, up and down, where it was like, first it started off like he was love bombing me so much, and I just was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, taking it, taking it or whatever.

And, you know, he did like, grand gesture.

He would be like, oh, don't leave the house.

I'm going to send you.

You have things coming.

You know, this is during my birthday all the way from New York.

He coordinated a cold cake to come to my brother's house.

I was living with my brother at the time.

He had this big bouquet of like the, you know, those infinite roses that are like plated with gold or whatever.

It came to my brother's house.

Another thing came to my brother's house, you know, just.

And, you know, he was telling me how much he loved me and this and that.

And I'm like, I love you too.

Da, da, da, da.

And then it just started to be like, okay, oh, you come at me that hard and then you just pull away.

And I'm like wondering why.

And eventually it got to the point where it's like, I just can't take it anymore.

I was in therapy at the time with this one guy, a straight Haitian therapist, actually in nursing school.

And he really helped me understand, like, you know, the choices to make, like, what, what to decide to do.

He didn't tell me what to do, but he helped me, you know, weigh the pros and cons of like, staying versus leaving.

And I decided to ultimately leave.

And of course my ex at the time was like, oh, you, you know, insert different words or whatever that were not kind.

And, you know, I left it be.

And then of course after that, you know, because I know I was a good boyfriend from what I could understand.

He was calling me, texting me, but he was blocked on everything and, you know, leaving voicemails like, please call me back I want to work this out, yada, yada, yada.

But I was, like, done.

And, you know, that relationship taught me a lot about how, like, I needed to really work on myself, but then also with him.

I remember on that call, when I broke up with him, I was like, any of these wounds and things that you're dealing with, like, you need to work on that and resolve that because this is not gonna be beneficial for you or myself.

So I just wish you the best.

And, yeah, so that was my first experience.

And then I've been in three relationships.

First one Nigerian, second one Caribbean.

The third one was half black, half Nigerian.

And I've dated any and everything black in between and after.

So.

Yeah.

How would you juxtapose both relationships?

Like, you've dated across the black diaspora?

It seems like, across.

Yeah.

What is your read on dating Nigerians?

And I'm asking specifically because we are all Nigerians on this, on this panel, and we're speaking from a Nigerian experience, um, and just trying to figure out what that looks like for us as we move into this iteration of our lives where we are getting older and we are deciding we want something, you know, serious.

Yes.

You know, what would you say has been your overall experience with dating, again, Nigerian in America?

Yes.

So, you know, I've come across different Nigerians, and, you know, there's part of it where, like, the ones that are really comfortable that I've come across, like, they typically.

We were talking about this in, you know, the WhatsApp group that Uche created, where, like, in my experience, and also the black pride group that we had, where I just see more of them lean more white when it comes to dating.

And part of that, some of the people said was like, oh, you know, dealing with a Nigerian brings them back to the trauma that they experienced dealing with Nigerians when they were still living in Nigeria, you know, so that was like, that's been my experience.

And then there's some Nigerians that.

How will I say, like, after, you know, my first relationship, I understand, like, where I was at fault.

Right.

But as time has gone on and I've done a lot of work on myself, like, so many years of therapy on and off since, like, 2011, when I was in my last year of undergrad, I feel like there's a lot of people who are not willing to do the work on themselves, you know, like, understanding how their different experiences have impact them, impacted them, and shaped them when it comes to dating, you know, their fellow Nigerians or just dating in general or understanding you know, their queerness and accepting that.

Like, I've come across other Nigerians where it's like, oh, you know, everything that they want to do is like, you know, maybe only in the house or, you know, when we go to certain places, it's like, don't do this or don't do that.

They have their restrictions or their conditions.

And it's not like you can just be yourself.

Like, granted, I'm always going to read the room, right?

But I live in Atlanta, Georgia, which is very, like, safe, open, and general.

You know, place where you can just do your.

Do your thing.

Like, even in the parts that are like, the hood, like where I used to live before, I live where I am now, where it's like, you can be in the hood and two men are going to be walking through the grocery store holding hands, swinging like two cheerful little boys.

And I'm like, wow, like, this is really happening in the hood.

But still, it's Atlanta, you know, so everybody is relatively comfortable.

But I.

But yeah, my main thing is just like, I think that people, the more comfortable, the more that they can reconcile with, you know, accepting themselves and knowing that they can, you know, connect with their fellow Nigerian.

I think that it could be better, you know, in the future.

Interesting.

I think that.

I think I have a curiosity and catching.

Maybe you can talk about that as you speak about your experience.

Like, I think that sometimes it just comes to me personally.

It comes to me like, I feel like human beings in general are still.

We're still figuring this out, right?

Couples are figuring it out.

Queer.

Queer people are figuring out as well, whether you are Nigerian, Caribbean, you know, black, American, white, Asian, you know, I think that we all bring some level of, you know, trauma or our past experiences to how we show up in relationships.

And I feel like sometimes when we have the Nigerian conversation, sometimes I feel like, you know, it might be like, you know, maybe we're also dealing with the same things.

But I don't know, Kachi, based on your experience, if that is how you, you know, connect to this conversation.

Because I feel like in a lot of spaces we are having these conversations.

Even people from outside are having these conversations about how doing it in Nigeria and if you did in Nigeria, blah, blah, blah, blah, what happened.

So it's like everybody is talking about this, but I want to know if I want to hear from you, what has been your experience so far?

And is this.

How is this the read on who we are when it comes to dating?

So here in the US I've actually Not dated a Nigerian.

You know, one of Bina was speaking, I could relate more with everything and which he said, my first, the first guy I actually had something with in the US Was Puerto Rican.

And that was like my first few months in America.

So we go to the gym, we go to the store.

He wants to hold hands with me.

And I'm very, you know, like, very uncomfortable, very conscious of it because I was used to living inside.

And that was a huge turn off for him.

He didn't like it.

He brought up a lot of issues and, and also basically then because I wasn't really ready to like, you know, get me anyone.

I was still dealing with just moving here, the shock, the fear and all that.

And then him coming in with everything he was bringing.

I wasn't ready for it.

But when I was ready to date, I haven't dated a Nigerian, not because I don't want to date a Nigerian.

I have dated close to a Nigerian.

I have dated an African from Togo who was like a real definition of dating in Nigeria.

In Nigeria, in the US and after him, I made a decision.

If you've just moved here within the last one year, two years, you're not ready, go get yourself ready, get work on yourself.

Be ready for what is here.

And when you're ready for that, then you can come.

When it comes to dating generally or people generally, I can't stand people who still use the word.

I like messing with guys or I want to mess with a guy, will use that word, mess.

When it comes to dealing with other gay men, if that's you, sorry, we can't be in the same room.

We can hang out, we can do everything, but we ain't going beyond that.

You know, that's basic phase dating in Nigeria.

You know, it came with heteronormative definitions.

Somebody was always trying to be the man and somebody else was trying to be the woman.

Whether you like it or not, that's 90% of relationships in Nigeria or dating in Nigeria.

That's how it's always defined because I was doing a lot of those things and you know, like one, he lives here now.

He made it so obvious that I was the only one going to cook.

I was the only one going to make the house.

I was the only one going to the market.

And one day I fought back and it was a huge fight.

That this was in Lagos.

You know, we used to be together in Yaba.

Basically we're living together.

But there was this definition of, oh, this has to be done, this has to be Done.

It has to be done this way, it has to be done that way.

Then coming here in the US now and dating, I.

If I see those signs in anything, I'm running away.

Today I lean more towards dating a black American, or would I say African American or I don't mind dating a Nigerian, but a Nigerian who is not just coming from Nigeria.

A Nigerian who is like, okay, over the years begin to, I've understood myself because I no longer care who is next to me, even if it's my mother.

If I want to kiss you, I want to kiss you.

I'm a very touchy, affectionate person.

And if I'm in public, I want to still be like that.

So if you can be that man, which is rare in our community today because here in the US based on experiences with myself, stories from other people, most Nigerians still date other men just to fulfill sexual pleasure.

Not because they want to get beyond that, because a lot of them still have this mind of, okay, let's just be together.

At the end of the day, you want to get married to a woman.

Which was an experience a friend of mine had.

He talked about it recently.

The guy was actually Cameroonian that he was with for many years.

Like he committed everything to this dude.

And eventually the guy still went to get married to a woman.

So if you're that person and if I see those signs in, you know, like, if I'm meeting you today, I am not committing with you today, but it's going to be part of those conversations, like, what's the future?

Like, are you here just because you want to be here for a short time, because you want to have a good time, or you're here because you want to be serious?

Majority of Nigerians still have this cultural fears in them.

Like they don't see a future within two men.

You know, like, at the end of the day, it's just like short term.

And secondly, the internalized homophobia.

Even though they tend to live in the most in a free country, you still see them struggling, you know, like being themselves.

They are still defined by what you know is happening back home.

And for me, you know, it took me time to work on myself.

Some of the things I did was to break off from all of that.

I stopped going to a Nigerian church because I don't want to be in a Nigerian church.

You know, my church members are on my WhatsApp phone and they will see my story.

And then I go to church on Sunday.

I'd be so uncomfortable.

No, I broke off Nigerian church I hang out with Nigerians a lot.

It doesn't mean, like, I'm not a Nigerian.

I don't hate Nigerians.

I love my people so much.

But if you're going to make me uncomfortable or put me back in my shell and make me feel like this is who I was, you know, back home, no, I break off from you, you know, and another thing is, you know, family expectations.

Like, me, I'm the first son of my home till tomorrow.

My mother is still expecting me to get married to a woman and give her grandchildren and all that and all that, which is something that still clouds a lot of Nigerians who live here, which is why, you know, I don't want to be with you if I don't have any future with you.

Yeah.

And it's not just Nigerians.

It goes across other Africans, Caribbeans.

Because the same law in Nigeria today is still common among most Caribbean countries.

Like, if you go to Jamaica, go to Trinidad and Tobago, St. Kitts, and all of them, they're all, like, the same, you know, My most recent is from the Caribbean, and it took us many months to get to where we were, which was still a huge issue.

Because if I'm on the phone with him and a family member is coming, he tends to hang up the phone.

No, I don't want to do that anymore.

So if you're coming today, just be ready.

That.

Okay, I am ready.

Hey, if I can't hug you in public, if I can't kiss you in public, I want to get with you.

Jealous.

I want to be hugging and kissing you.

Jealous.

I don't want to be in that cage.

I just feel like it was a cage for me, you know, like, let me give an example.

I was with this dude back home.

We were together for almost five years.

We're planning to, you know, we were just in love.

We don't know where we're going to, but I felt like we're going somewhere along the lines.

Family pressure.

He was our only son.

They pressured him to get married.

And he came to me and told him he was getting married.

I said, why?

Why don't you?

Because, you know, you and I know that you love men, you know, go married to a woman.

Because, you know, at the end of the day, he fell to the pressure.

He got married.

And when he got married, he didn't want us.

He didn't want to let go of me.

He came to me.

I know we're having this conversation one night.

It was very heated, and he go, like, what about if we Keep being what we are and be like friends and moving together, you know, to my wife, you're my best friend.

But you and I, we are together.

You're still gonna be the first.

I'm like, get out of here with your boots.

You'll be my best wife.

Your best wife.

I'm gonna be the first.

The first wife.

And she's going to be the second wife.

And which is something I also saw in my navigation.

Because when I was in college, I met this dude.

He.

He lived in Calabar.

We were together for maybe a year plus before eventually went to his home as I was in Port Harcourt, he was in Calabar.

He used to work in et.

So I used to go to Ekat to meet him.

I had no reason to go to his house.

And the first time I met him, I was like, are you married?

He says, no, he's not married.

He denied his marriage.

And then one time his father passed away and I had to visit his hometown for the funeral.

And then I had to go to Calabar.

We were on our way, driving to Calabar, just between the lines of Akwa, Ibom State and Cross River State.

He told me he was married.

He said, I didn't want to tell you I was married because I didn't want to lose you.

Because I knew you were emphasizing on the issue of marriage.

Because then the policy remains if you're married to a woman, I don't want to have anything to do with you because I don't want to be the side piece.

I always want to be the first.

I am very territorial that I don't want you being with another person except me.

So I don't even want to compete with a woman because I did compete with a woman growing up.

And it was so mercy that I'll call this dude on the phone and the one will be singing all homosexual must die.

A homosexual was like just by seeing my name on that phone.

So I don't want that again.

It ended up not like he even had a wife.

He had a boyfriend of eight years.

So in his house in Calabar, the wife lived there, his boyfriend lived there.

And he told me this boyfriend was his cousin.

And the night of the funeral, we had finished from Calabar, we backed Akwa for the funeral.

Lying down at night.

We're three cuddling.

Why are we three?

It's not supposed to be you and I.

This is supposed to be your cousin.

Why is he cuddling you?

Oh, another thing I didn't tell you is me and him.

We've been together for eight years.

Even if I met my wife, we all three can be together.

I was like, jesus, open the ground.

I want to bury myself.

So with all of that, be with that man here who is not comfortable, who is not ready, who has not desensitized themselves of the things back home.

If.

If you're ready for that, you're ready to move past all of those drama, all of those trauma.

I know it's not easy.

It's not an easy journey for someone to go.

Sometimes I'm not too patient to be with you, to go through all of that, so.

Which is why, you know, if I'm dating someone, sure, I would love to date a Nigerian.

It's gonna be amazing.

We understand each other.

Probably speak the same language, probably eat the same kind of food.

I don't have to.

You don't have to take me to some place and I' eating breakfast Benedict, the raw egg.

Because you and I know that we like to boil our eggs.

Very strong, hard boiled egg.

And it's gonna be nice, but then, you know, it's gonna be a good thing.

But beyond all of this, how is the relation, how healthy is this relationship gonna be, you know, and all that?

So that's just my thing with, you know, dating a Nigerian or being with other Africans.

I would love the idea, but I am not ready to struggle and I'm not ready to hide again.

I did, I hid for 35 years of my life.

And I got into New York and passed through immigration and got into New Jersey.

I was like, this journey is over.

I don't want to go back to it again.

It was toxic, it was not good, and it wasn't healthy for me.

Yeah, Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

No, like, really said everything because I relate to everything that you said, you know, in terms of dating Nigerians, even being intimate with Nigerians.

Actually, I think I've only been intimate with three Nigerians in the U.S. it took me years to be able to like, you know, be comfortable with being sexual within Nigeria because of, you know, I think most.

Most of it for me is the trauma, you know, everything that I went through back home with the keto, you know, being beaten up several times and persecuted by people that I.

Someone that I thought was supposed to be my boyfriend, who ended up being like a setup.

So each time I meet Nigerians, like, you know, to be, you know, like on an intimate level, that trauma always come back.

Even making friends with Nigerians also took me a while to be able to like, you know, be comfortable with being friends with Nigeria.

My best friend, Francis, in New York, when I first met him, I really didn't want to be friends with him.

But I'm like, you know what?

I don't want to be friends with.

I don't really want anything with Nigeria.

I just moved to New York then, and then I just met him.

I'm like, I don't.

I want to focus on my job.

I really don't want friendship with Nigerians.

But, you know, he kept coming close to me and kept, you know, being nice, and eventually we became friends.

I was able to start meeting other Nigerians and, you know, got comfort.

But in terms of, like, dating Nigeria, I've just like, actually, I've never dated in Nigeria since I've been in the.

US.

And part of that is just being comfortable with who I am.

I've done a lot of work on myself to be able to be where I am with my, you know, self acceptance, sexuality and all of that.

So it's going to be hard for me to be with someone who is still struggling, you know, to accept themselves.

Always.

There's going to be that pressure from Nigeria, from family back home.

There's going to be pressure from society back home.

But the way I always feel is if you are here in the US you are dependable on yourself.

Like, you know, you're not dependent on your family.

You are.

Most times, you are the one sending the money.

I'm like, okay, what is it like that is stopping you from at least doing the work, you know, of.

Take, take, take the baby step.

Of course, you know, it's not going to be easy, but I wish that people can at least start taking the baby step.

No.

Okay, yes.

I'm here in the US you don't have to come out if you don't want to come out to your family, but at least be able to be comfortable in yourself and be able to be, be in every space without thinking of, okay, who is going to see you or who is going to, you know, to know that you're gay and things like that.

Some of you have heard me say this a lot.

I've taken pictures with Nigerians and they called me on the phone and asked me, please take down my picture.

Yeah.

One of them came to me to tell you to take down his picture, but I said, no, I'm not going to do that.

I was.

Then when you took that picture with Uche, I wouldn't tell Uche to take your picture down.

And also, before I forget, I Wrote this down while Uche was speaking.

One thing again is I love the fact that a Nigerian man could have it big and could do it well when they want to do it.

But sexually, I don't feel sexually satisfied with fellow Nigerians because they have their limitations.

Yeah, I've been with other black men, I've been with other ethnicities.

If you can't go down there and put your mouth in it, sorry, we're not going down that way.

As a whole struggle for Nigerians, when it gets to certain things sexually, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm not used.

No, no, no, you have to.

I mean, I feel like the Nigerians that eat the groceries, you know,.

Spit on the mic, you know what I'm saying?

I feel like I hate that.

I think so.

No, no, the.

The country is actually saying the truth.

There's a. Nigerians have so many.

This is not just Nigeria.

I feel like this is Africans in general very extreme.

It's.

It's like African thing.

There are certain things they would not do in the bedroom, you know, because again, it's like unconsciously they start thinking that they're in Nigeria.

And in Nigeria, some certain things are frowned upon.

So even in bedroom still here in the US they're still feeling like, oh, I can do this, or you can.

You know, I can do certain things.

And like I was saying, people are called me to take down their pictures and I'm like, how are your family gonna.

Your family don't even know who I am.

Social media is not following you.

Or their uncle is not gonna reach.

The village in like, picture on my page.

You know, it's like all these things I.

When I. I think about, I'm like, you know what?

I really don't want to deal with that.

Like, you know, mentally, emotionally, it's not healthy for me.

I've done the work and I'm still doing the work.

I'm still like, you know, a work in progress.

So anything that's really going to take me back, you know, I try to avoid it.

Like I just said, avoiding certain spaces, you know, avoiding certain people that I think they're going to drag me back into the closet or into the space I used to be years ago, you know, family are going to be there.

They're always going to expect some, you know, certain things from you.

My.

My mom called me the other day.

I think I posted this on my social media.

My mom called me on there, like, when are you going to give me a grandchild?

I'm like, you are My, My parents have like 18 grandchildren, but they still want my own child.

I'm like, you guys, I'm.

Listen, you guys should go train the ones you have, you know, before, you know, expecting me to have a guy.

You know, I'm not ready for that right now.

But it's all those family expectations.

But I think we need to really start doing the work as.

As gay Africans who are already here in the US or in countries where, you know, being.

Being some gender loving homosexuality is accepted.

I conform more to the word same gender loving.

That is why I use that.

I really don't conform to the word queer, but I know we use it even at work and the work that we do.

But personally, I do conform more to same gender loving or even gay.

So I think that we need to really do a little work in terms of being comfortable with our sexuality.

There's a joy or the feeling that I get when I see an African gay who is very comfortable and living their truth and say, you know, it.

I'm.

I'm gonna be at this party, I'm gonna dance, I'm gonna twerk.

I'm gonna, like, you know, without really caring what the people are gonna say.

Like, to me, that is something to be proud of, you know, so dating Nigerians, like Kachi said it would be nice, obviously, because, you know, you guys really could relate to a lot of things.

You know, the food, the culture is the same.

So it would be nice to have that experience.

But it never happened.

I don't know if it's ever gonna happen.

You know, I really don't know if it's ever gonna happen.

It's.

As long as someone is gonna bring me peace and, you know, not go with so many other external drama, you know, totally fine.

I feel like, I feel like there's been a lot of things that you all have touched upon that I really want to unpack.

We have so little time, but before we start to wrap up, there's something that there's an expectation.

I feel like everybody has or everybody's folks have, you know, I think Obina has kind of mentioned about, talked about it briefly about, you know, children and parents asking about grandkids and Catchy has mentioned that as well.

Oche has mentioned that as well.

As folks who are now living openly as queer folks.

I feel like there is the possibility of having kids if that is something that you all desire.

But the question remains, how does your African parents or your Nigerian parents react when you're like, oh, I'm gonna have a kid.

But I'm gonna have a kid with bio or I'm going to have a kid with David.

You know what I'm saying?

What would that look like?

Well, I'm going to have a kid by myself.

Have you all thought about that before?

Have you all kind of.

How are you dealing with that expectation of that parents are putting on you, on you, or family members are putting on you to want to have children?

When it, when it comes to the children thing, I remember when I was growing up and I was telling my parents, like, you know, my mom is one of eight, my dad is one of seven, and I would be saying to them, like, oh, yeah, I want to have like 10 kids.

I want to have a family big like both of y' all came from.

And they would be like, hey, praise the Lord, you are having many children.

I want to have grandchild.

You know, they would be so, so happy.

But the older I got, I started to realize that part of my desire of wanting children was that it would make me seem more normal in their eyes and what would be more societally acceptable.

But as time went on, I realized that I do not want children.

And of course, my parents, they definitely have their gripes about that.

And, you know, for me, it's just like when I think about my life and moving forward, of course I want a partner.

I would like to be married, but it's not like a. I think I'm starting to think that.

I'm starting to realize that marriage is not necessarily a deal breaker, but I definitely want a committed monogamous situation where it's just like me and my guy and, you know, we do whatever it is that we want to do.

But with as far as children, it just.

When I think about, like, the future, it's not necessarily like what I see for myself.

For me, it's like, I'll be the fly ass uncle.

You know, if any of my close friends or my, you know, family members have children, they want to drop them off, I'll take them, spoil them rotten.

And the best part for me is giving them back, you know.

But then the other thing that I realized when it comes to dating, like, you know, tying this all into dating, is when I've come across men across the Black diaspora.

That'll be a challenge at times, like meeting men and is not necessarily like the first question that's always asked.

But I do get to it pretty early because I don't want to waste anyone's time and I don't want to waste my time either.

Where I'M like, hey, how do you feel about children?

And if they say that they really want kids and they already have name and vision for them and all of that, well, I'm like, well, we're just not aligned in that way.

So, like, we just end up being cool or nothing ends up, you know, coming from it.

Right?

So that's definitely something that can be a challenge.

But then sometimes, like, I've spoken to some other Nigerians that are older than me, and I'll talk to them about, like, hey, like, how do y' all kind of navigate this?

Like, you know, a lot of them, you know, they'll say they want kids, or some of them will say that they don't like me, and they will tell me, you know, one of the things you also have to ask some of the people who say they want children is, oh, what is their plan when it comes to having children?

There's so much more.

Like, even with, you know, same gender loving relationships, if you want to have children, whether it's adoption or doing surrogacy, those come with a hefty price tag.

So sometimes it's like, you know, I don't think everyone gives so much thought into some of those other factors that can, you know, influence what your quality of life will be like after you actually bring the children into the world.

And now for me, that's not why I don't want to have children.

But for some people who are like, you know, saying yes, that they want to have kids, it's like, you know, think about that some of those things more.

And not only having, also not only having children, because it's what will make your parents happy.

You know, there's a lot of Nigerians that I've come across, whether they're living in Nigeria or they live in America.

Like, one person that I know, you know, he's gone back to Nigeria.

He's been in Nigeria with his son that he had through surrogacy for maybe like four or five months now.

And, you know, of course he's spending a lot of time with his son and all of that, as you know, in the formidable time.

But of course, at some point he has to come back to the US because he has a job here and that's how he makes his livelihood.

Right.

That's just something to think about, you know.

So for me, when it comes to dating, it's like, it'll kind of put me out of the running sometime with some people.

But I try to keep the faith that there are people within the black Diaspora that want the same thing that I want.

Like we can just be two fly ass uncles, take care of, you know, whoever's cousin, brother, whatever, kids and support in that way, be a positive male figure but not necessarily doing the whole child rearing from like 0 to 18 or you know, even adopting or what have you.

I feel you're on that one for me and kids, it's so I know culturally there's an expectations, especially among most tribes in Nigeria, there's this expectation that you have a child to keep the lineage going.

My desire or love to have a kid is not centered on that.

It's something that I have well thought out personally.

I just want my own child.

You know, it's something I've always dreamt of.

It's not because it's an expectation, because if it was an expectation I had opportunities in the past growing up to do that.

But you know, it's something I've always wanted and I'm working towards getting having a kid one or two maybe, you know, I'm open to adopting.

One thing that it's also that I'm also looking at for is I know eventually I'm going to be with someone.

That's the goal, that's something I'm working towards.

But I also want to be with someone that will be ready to accept kids.

You know, is it you break out for me?

No.

If I have the opportunity to have my child defined with this person, will I do it the better?

So when you're coming in, you're knowing that okay, he's got a child, I'm going to either accept him as child or not, you know, so it's something I'm working towards.

I know it can be expensive in America to have kids, especially for a single person like me.

If I have to like where I work now, it means I will have to either find a nanny or find someone to be taking care of this baby.

And also this kid likes to travel.

You know, the first few years of that baby's life I will have to either figure out, work out something which is some of the things that is also holding me back a little bit at this time.

And also surrogacy in America is very expensive.

But do I want to have a baby as early as yesterday?

Yes.

I want to wake up every day and look into that boy and be like, or that girl and be like, yeah, this is mine, this is me.

You know, also to prove the word wrong because they think that gay men can fight our children.

I've seen the best Kids.

The best families in this country, like, the best children.

We are raised by gay people, lesbian couples.

So, yeah, you know, am I doing it for anybody?

No, I'm doing it for myself.

So that's one of the reasons why I've always wanted to have a baby.

Yeah.

It's a goal.

It's a plan in progress, and it's something I'm working towards.

I think, for me, very similar to Kachi.

I've.

Before now, I've always, you know, want a kid.

I've always said to myself, I must have a kid.

I want, you know, at least three or four.

But I think as I get older, a lot of that mindset is changing.

So right now I'm open to having kids.

Like, I'm open not.

Not like having kids right at this.

Moment, but.

I'm open to having kids in the future.

But I'm also fine with not having kids, which is very.

Like, if anybody tell me that, I will even say this, like, two, three years ago.

I would never.

I would not, you know, believe, because I'm one of those people that, like, oh, I want kids, and it has to be my own.

But now I'm like, you know, in a space of, like, you know what?

Yes.

Kids, you know, they are beautiful, lovely humans.

It would be nice to have a kid, someone to maybe hopefully look.

Look out for you and take care of you when you are older.

But I'm also fine with not having one.

You know, if I'm with someone who want to have kids, it would be good to have kids together, you know, so.

And also I'm open to adopting, and I'm also open to, you know, raising my.

My siblings kid.

Like I said, I. I have, like, six other siblings, with seven in my family, and I have, like, 18 nephews and nieces that I'm.

I'm fine with raising one or two of them as my own kid, even though they're still my sibling kid if.

If that is the situation I'm finding myself.

But it would be nice to, you know, to have one.

And my parents, they will be fine.

Again.

They already have.

They have a lot, so they should be fine with.

With those.

With those that they have.

But I know they still want mine, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really.

I really appreciate y' all really sharing different parts.

I know there are.

There are many parts of this conversation that we can.

We can talk about and we can have for, like, forever.

But I also want to.

I want to be thankful, appreciative about y' all sharing your experience.

There's a lot of courage that it takes to openly talk about your, you know, your gayness.

You know, I'm gonna use gay because of Uche, your gayness and navigating that piece as a Nigerian and moving through the world and dating and all of that.

But I also want to say that I know that being Nigerian is a beautiful thing, you know, regardless of all the things and all the isms that we have to deal with and we have to encounter and that, you know, Nigerian queer folks, gay, straight, bi, lesbian, trans, whatever, are also deserving of love.

And I also have the capacity to love in a way that is full, in a way that is abundant, and that, you know, whether it is two men or two women can do the work, can unlearn the things, and find each other and find love and find a purpose.

I want to wrap up our conversation with y', all talking about what that, what that can look like for you and how you envision how we love on each other from a platonic space into romantic relationships.

What is your hope for?

We don't want to have this conversation in 5, 10 years and saying that, oh, it's hard dating someone who is, you know, who is Shelly, when you.

When we are in.

In a space and in a society now that does not criminalize, technically, in theory, does not criminalize same sex relations like they do back home.

And so I'm curious to know how we want to, you know, leave the people how we want to.

What is our hope for how, you know, we start to navigate.

I feel like achieve space is like, let me see.

But.

But I really want to know because I truly do believe that we do have the capacity to love each other fully and let go of all that, you know, trauma and internalized homophobia that a lot of our brothers and sisters are dealing with.

I can go on that.

First, I've always been a very relationship oriented person.

And when I mean relationship oriented, I mean like having an exclusive relationship in the next phase of my life, which is something I've constantly been talking about working on.

I know I have a picture, you know, when it comes to the person I want to end my life with, I have a picture.

Like, if it's an art, if I was an artist, I already sketched them.

Like, this is who I want.

This is what I want.

At the end of the day, I want to be with someone in my old age.

You know, I'm 40, and I don't want to tell myself it's too late because it can happen any day.

It can happen Even when you're 60, you still find it, you know, it's something I've been working towards.

I want to have a family, but I don't want to have a family.

That is defined by the hetero societal expectations.

That's something I don't want to work with.

Do I want to have children like I already talked about?

Yes.

Must it be with the person?

Well, if they want that, sure.

If they don't want it, no.

No hetero expectations tied to it.

I also want to be free, you know, like, not like, oh, probably because when it comes to the bedroom, you do more of the receiving then for that you're going to be the queen of the house.

No, I am a man treat.

I want the next person in my life to treat me like one.

In most, 75% of my past relationships, people tend to treat me like the woman in the relationship.

That's what I've observed.

Probably because of how I tend to behave.

Like, you know, how I tend to carry myself or carry them.

But I just feel like this is me.

I don't want to pretend about it, but don't put that feminine or woman label to it.

And also going forward, one thing I've also observed is I tend to have defined a standard for what I expect.

I could make a compromise when it comes to like the other person, but I'm not going to lower my expectations.

Compromising doesn't mean you're going to lower your expectations.

If, like I said earlier, you must be ready to kiss me in public.

Even if we're just leaving the church, happening to the car and the pastor is watching and waving at us, I want to kiss and I want to get one.

If I can't get it, then you're not the person for me.

Because if I want to say, oh, because the pastor is looking, let's forget about my kids.

No, that's lowering my standard.

But maybe I don't, because the pastor is looking.

I don't want to have a deep one minute kiss.

I could have like one second, two seconds kiss.

Yeah.

So some of those are some of the things I look out for because like I find out over time, I'd be like, okay, let me just say, because it's you, I would do this.

It may be different for some other person, but this is catchy.

And this is what I see going forward.

Yes, for you, but what is, how do you, what is your hope for, you know, the next gay Nigerian person who, who comes here, you know, how do you want them to Be able to find themselves.

What is your hope for them?

You know, we want to create a.

And maybe.

Maybe we're.

We're.

You know, we are just four people here.

We are not the entire.

You know, what you might call it?

We're not the.

We can.

We can't change everything.

What's our hope and our dream for us to be able to show up in community in a way that we are loving each other in the way that we deserve to be loved and openly as well.

For the next.

For the next Nigerian that is coming here.

I wish you all the best and I hope.

No, I'm gonna speak like.

Like I said, I. I love my Nigerian community so much.

You find me when I'm with.

When I'm within the community.

I'm very happy, which I've been to your events, and you know how I roll.

I don't say, oh, you.

No.

I. I can't even stand someone discriminating against my people.

But that's different from what I want in bed with you.

Okay.

I like.

Okay, I. I'm gonna be.

I'm gonna X rate this conversation a little bit now.

Drove all the way to New York, went to.

You know, I hate going to Queens in New York because parking is a problem.

Went there and you're.

And we got into bed and you were throwing all your saliva on it.

Like, seriously.

No, if you don't want to put your mouth in there, don't even try.

And that's one of many conversations.

My most recent.

Caribbean.

He wouldn't even dare go there.

Hello.

Hello.

So if you're that Nigerian online, train yourself, because I was like that.

I don't expect you to.

If you don't want to.

You know, if you don't want to make change in your life, good for you.

But I am not the man for you.

At the same time, if you're ready to unlearn and move past being.

But you're not moving past being a Nigerian, but you're moving past the Nigerian societal expectations, norms and values, then we're good.

But I wish you all the best.

Navigate through your life journey.

If you have a few chop.

Yes, I beg Come up for you.

For bed like that on top there more now.

No, we're not that.

No.

If I can take you out in the pack, we're hanging out or we'll be on the flight.

Beware.

See, I want to be free.

See, my freedom costs me a lot back home.

It was.

It was traumatizing.

And, you know, if.

Sometimes when I look at When I go back and think about my story, I had a record number of seven kiddos in Nigeria.

Even when I was in youth service, I had a record number of seven ketos.

So when I think about all of that and I come here and all the hiding I had to hide and all the lies I had to tell, and then you want to come and bring me back into that space of, oh, you can't kiss me in public because your church people are looking, your friends are there, or you're scared that you have no.

I dated a Haitian back in 2020, 2022.

And we went to a gay club and he broke up with me.

Why did he break up with me?

He saw a Haitian in the club.

You don't even know this dude.

But because you identified the guy to be Haitian, you got angry and you broke off with me.

So I don't want to deal with all of that.

And then today he's a drag queen, but two years ago or three years ago, you had a problem with, you know, so I know it took him time to get to where he is today.

So I am not ready to work with you on that journey.

It's your journey.

Walk it out, figure it out yourself.

And then when you're ready, we can go there.

Will I be willing to hang out with, you know, give you tips?

Yeah, sure.

But on that journey, like, oh, when start dating and I will start hoping that, oh, you will change tomorrow.

What if you not realize tomorrow that I'm not even the right person for you when you already changed?

Would I be the one to be staying a lot?

I think I would.

I would keep it short and cute.

Maybe not, but I'll keep it short.

So I think first of all, every newly arrived, I would say, whether Nigerian or, you know, anywhere you're coming from, but mostly Africa, to not go into relationship immediately.

You need to really, like, you know, take your time to, to like, you know, unlearn all these harmful stereotypes that you learn from, you know, back home.

Be ready before you go into relationship.

I've seen a lot of people who come here, they already in a relationship.

And also to non Africans, Americans, if I don't know if this is even right to say, but like Americans trying to date a newly arrived person because they're just new, they're trying to hold them down before, like, you know, they know everybody on the street.

I really also don't think that is a good thing to do.

I think you should allow the, the person, the newly arrived, to really like, you know, explore and really like, you know, know what they want because people are here knew that at that time.

They really don't know what they want.

They just try to like explore everything is new to them, is overwhelming.

You know, the transitioning from Africa to the US is a lot.

And then you now want to drop into a relationship where there's a lot of expectation and, you know, we have to kiss, you have to hold hands and all of those things.

So people are still struggling with getting comfortable.

So I would say to first, you know, be single for at least a year or two so you can be able to really like, you know, know what you want and do the work of, you know, unlearning and work towards, you know, being comfortable in yourself and your sexuality.

Expectations gonna be there.

But you know, take the baby step and do the work of, you know, knowing where you come from or you have been through and knowing that at this point your freedom, your happiness is more important than family.

Because trust me, family, what they need is your money.

The moment you stop sending money to them, for real, the moment you stop sending money to them, you would think your family don't know you game, baby.

They do.

They're just keeping quiet because you're sending money to them.

The moment you stop sending money to them, that is the day your brother or your sister is going to remind you that we know you're gay and they're gonna curse you out.

You know, so I would say to think less of, you know, the family, what they will say or what they would think and the society, you know, you're here in the U.S. you know, live in the moment, you know, just be yourself.

That's what that, that would be my advice.

Yeah, I think that those are great points.

I mean, to go back to my first boyfriend that I was telling you all before.

I mean, he had been in the US for probably less than two years and an older Nigerian that I know from Benin, he was telling me and he'd been in the US for over 10 years at that point, my friend.

And he would tell me like, he told me like, yo, now when you date somebody and they may happen to be from like a foreigner, like if they've not been here very long, just stay away.

Because he remembers when he got to America and within the first year or two, he said, oh, I was very hot headed, I didn't understand whatever.

I was trying to figure everything out.

And that was definitely a part of what my ex was doing, you know, and a story that we could go into another time.

He Came back three years later trying to spin the block and all of that.

You know, that's another story for another time, but.

And foolishly, I entertained it.

But, you know, we thank God for growth, so.

But I would say.

I would say for anybody coming, you know, to Kachi's points, to Uche's points, like, live your life.

Like, the thing that saddens me a lot, even, you know, there's a lot of people that I've met whether, you know, I come.

I mean, I come from what is essentially like, little Lagos, a little Enugu.

I was born and raised in Houston, so that is like the epitome of, like, Nigeria, outside of Nigeria.

And then also living in Atlanta now for the last 10 years.

This month makes 10 years.

And it saddens me when I just see how, like, our people will still be in such a cage mentally, you know, and some of them, they're well into their 50s, like, oh, I can't do this because of X, Y and Z.

And some of them, both of their parents are even late, and they still, like, have this, like, cage on their brain.

And I'm like, y', all, like, just free yourself.

You know, even ones that I know, like, we've had deep conversations about people that they know that they love or who they feel like can be an ideal partner for them.

But because of everything in their head, they won't give themselves the permission to just lean in and love on this person, whether the person is a black American, another Caribbean, another Nigerian, another African.

And I'll just be like, man, you know, you're just, like, really holding yourself back from what can be something really beautiful because of these limitations that you put on yourself.

Like, granted, I understand, like, you know, Uche kind of alluded to it earlier about, like, you're in America now, but you know how our culture is.

It's very much a collective mindset.

But then in America, America's very individualistic, you know, so it's finding that balance between both.

But it gets to a point where it's like, what matters more, your peace and happiness, or, like, living for other people?

And I have two people in my life that are like my little brothers.

One is from Central Africa, one is from Nigeria.

And I've been very blessed to be like a bigger brother to them.

They both immigrated to the U.S. you know, one probably seven years ago, another one within the last two, three years.

And I've just kind of, you know, taken them under my wing, or I really did take them under my wing.

And I Just let them know, like just be free.

Like just do you at the end of the day, you're here now.

Whatever it is that you want to do for your career, for friendships, for dating, like, just do that, live your life.

And like for what I, you know, would tell, I guess even like my younger self, I would tell myself a lot of those same things.

And I would have kissed a boy earlier than 27 years old.

Right.

But I think that, you know, other than that, like kissing someone earlier, right.

I wouldn't change anything because it all made me who I am today.

And you know, the life has been beautiful.

You know, I wouldn't have it any other way.

And you know, I look forward to what the future holds.

I hope to keep being in community with my fellow gay, same gender loving Africans and hopefully I'll marry one.

We'll see.

Hopefully we'll see.

I want to just thank y' all for coming on and sharing.

Like I said, being vulnerable with your stories and being very open.

Really appreciate y' all just sharing.

I'm so happy that we are getting to see what it's like to be Korean, Nigerian from different perspectives.

And so thank you so much for coming on.

Odejo Ma' Am.

And to everyone who has been listening or watching so far, I really want to appreciate you all for sticking with us.

Don't forget to like share and subscribe.

We're available wherever you listen to your podcast.

If you want more information on UCHE Catchy, I will drop their information in the description box so you can find out who they are and support their work.

UCHE has a nonprofit that is doing amazing work for black migrants in the US so check that out as well.

Obinai is also a dj, so.

Check.

Out his dj, his DJ stuff.

And Catchy is just out here in these streets looking for love.

And so.

If I see myself on Insta Blog Naijan, someone said this is the one that you can't do in Nigeria because they don't know how to perform in the bed.

I won't be surprised tomorrow,.

But yeah.

Thank you all so much for coming on and thank you all for watching till the next episode.