In this episode, I’m sharing how I started framing my antagonist and what I pulled from Rayne Hall’s book Writing About Villains. (It’s a quick, actionable read, and if you have Kindle Unlimited, it’s included there.)

Here’s what you’ll hear in today’s episode:

• Why I chose the Evil Overlord archetype as the foundation for my primary antagonist
• How a secondary antagonist (the fanatic) adds depth to the conflict
• Why I’m considering a tertiary antagonist for the romantic subplot
• How I’m thinking through goal, motivation, and stakes for my antagonist so he isn’t just evil for evil’s sake

This episode is all about creating a clear foundation—archetype, goal,  motivation, and stakes—that I can build on once I move into the outlining stage.

📚 Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Writing About Villains by Rayne Hall

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Welcome back to another episode of The podcast.

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I am thrilled because today we are

going to be talking about antagonists.

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And I'm excited about this because

previously in the last episode I had said

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that next we would be talking about my

actual outlining process, but I completely

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forgot that I had not even considered who

exactly my antagonist was going to be.

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Kind of had an idea in the

back of my mind, but I had

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done nothing to write down.

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Who they were, how they were going to

be working against the protagonist.

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And so I was like, oh my gosh I can't

even talk about outlining and what's

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gonna happen in the story until I

consider who exactly the antagonist is.

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So that is what we are going

to be talking about today.

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Without further ado, let's

go ahead and dive in.

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Welcome to the Fiction Refinery podcast.

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I'm Jennifer, a writer and developmental

editor, and I'm here to share my writing

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process As I work on the first book that I

intend to publish, I'm going to be sharing

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the lessons that I'm learning along the

way and the insights that we can borrow

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from bestselling books and fellow writers.

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Grab your favorite hot beverage and

let's dive in to today's episode.

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I have never been particularly rigid or

structured when it comes to developing my

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antagonists, and I wanted to try something

a little bit different for this story.

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So because of that, I read.

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Writing about villains by Rayne Hall.

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I don't know if you have read the book

or not, or if you've heard of Rayne Hall.

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I really liked her book on pacing.

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I found it to be very actionable

and really helpful, so I liked that

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book, so I thought I would go ahead

and give this one a try as well

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As with the book on pacing, I found

this one to be really actionable

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too, and I thought that it at

least gave me a great foundation to

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start thinking about my antagonist.

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So the primary antagonist that I'm

gonna have for this story is going

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to be the Evil Overlord Archetype

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in Hall's book, she lists, I

think it's like 8, oh, 10, sorry.

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She lists 10 villain archetypes,

and these were very interesting.

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I found 'em to be very helpful, at least

as a starting place for my villain, and

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quite honestly, without even realizing

it, the villain I, the antagonist, I

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keep calling him a villain because the

book is titled Writing about Villains,

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but I just wanted to be very clear.

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This is an antagonist . Villains

can obviously be antagonists, but

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not all antagonists are villains.

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So I just wanted to be really clear

what exactly I'm talking about.

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So the antagonist that I had in my mind.

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Automatically fit into the evil

overlord archetype that she lays out.

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If you're interested in learning

more about the archetypes, I highly

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recommend going, checking out her book.

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If you have a Kindle Unlimited

subscription, it is included in that.

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So for me, so in the story that

I'm thinking about, the stakes

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are going to be pretty high.

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For my particular story, the protagonist's

goal is to save her sister and.

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The reason that she has to save

her sister is because there is

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a monarch who is persecuting.

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Those who have magic.

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I'm working on

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another story goal.

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It's another thing that I'm

testing out for this story.

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There's so many things that I'm

testing this go around, but I'm

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gonna make that in the next episode.

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I read a book.

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I'll go over it in the next one.

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And they included

something that I wanna try.

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So that's what I'm going to be

testing out and I'll have more

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on that in the next episode.

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But there's going to be a plot line that

involves how she has to use, in this

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instance, magic to save those who have.

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Magic.

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It's not enough that she

just saves her sister.

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There's going to be a bigger goal as

well, although she doesn't exactly realize

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that it is her goal, but her saving her

sister will tie in to this bigger goal.

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Anyways, it's very difficult to

explain without sharing more details.

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But I want to do an entire

episode on that, so I don't

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wanna talk anymore about it.

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Because of that goal, I knew that

the primary antagonist in this

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story was going to be the monarch,

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because that's really evil.

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And clearly if his goal is to

obtain power and obtain power

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by taking it from others, then.

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He just is naturally

the primary antagonist.

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Now, he's not going to be the

only antagonist in this story.

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I do wanna mention that, but let's quickly

go over what exactly this antagonist

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archetype is or the villain archetype is.

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So he's motivated by power and control.

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He wants to keep and grow his empire.

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He is a long-term planner.

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He looks at the big picture and

considers years into the future.

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He is very strategic in

the choices that he makes.

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He is okay with waiting for gratification.

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That being said, it is easy for

him to make quick decisions.

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One thing that Hall mentioned about

this archetype, which I don't really

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have for this particular character, is

that she mentions that this archetype

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is either really supposed to come

from like a humble position, like an

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illegitimate son or was a hero who

rose to power and was then corrupted.

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I'm not sure that I want him to be a hero

who rose to power and was then corrupted

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and I'm not sure how to work in that.

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He came from some sort of humble position.

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He was in the line of succession.

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So I'm still considering that and

considering if that portion of the

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archetype that she has laid out is

something that I would like to try

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and include, or if it's something

that I'm going to just disregard.

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I think that the reason that she sets

it up like this is to try and make

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the villain not evil for evil's sake.

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So I understand why.

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She suggests this and why she puts this

here for the archetype, because it does

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make them feel more human, a little

bit less just evil for the sake of

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being evil, and I can appreciate that.

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I want to show some sort of corruption.

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For this character, but I'm not sure

that it'll be quite hero status, but

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he will definitely making some choices

when he comes into power that are not

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aligned with what was expected from him.

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Anyways, I digress,

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and I think that's how I'm going

to try and make him not so evil

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for evil's sake, but we will see.

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I have more thinking to do on that,

and that's perfectly fine because

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right now I'm just trying to get to the

outlining portion, so I just need to

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have an idea of who my antagonist is.

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Now I wanna talk about the secondary

antagonist because this is fun.

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There is another villain archetype

that Hall includes in her book,

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and that is the fanatic.

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This, and I'm quoting her here.

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This villain is motivated by deeply

held, often religious convictions.

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End quote.

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I am excited about this because

there is going to be a religious

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aspect to the persecution.

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That's not really why the king is

doing it, but it is what he uses

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to convince everybody else that

it's a good idea and he's going

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to be using, I think, a fanatic.

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To do that.

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So the fanatic is going to likely

be the head of the church or some

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prominent figure in the church, and

they're going to use religion to

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justify why magic is being outlawed.

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And those with magic are being persecuted.

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They're going to use religion and fear.

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To encourage people to turn their

loved ones in, turn their neighbors in,

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and that is all I have so far

for that particular archetype.

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That's all I know.

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He's a secondary antagonist, not the

primary, but he'll also be considered

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one of the evil overlords minions.

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This guy, I think, is going to

fully believe in what he is doing

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now, the primary antagonist.

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Is doing it for power and he's just

using the fanatics strongly held

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religious beliefs to get what he wants.

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And I have not decided if I'm going

to have a tertiary antagonist for the

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romantic subplot, but I am considering it.

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I'm going to just mention it for now so

that you can see why exactly I'm thinking

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about it and so that you can hear what I'm

thinking about, why I'm considering it.

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But I may not include it and I'm

not gonna make a decision on this

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until probably after the outlining.

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I think it'll become pretty clear if this

would be helpful or just way too much

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when I go through the outlining process.

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So another villain archetype that Hall

has in her book is the seductress.

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And am considering having her be

a minion for the evil overlord and

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also in love with the love interest,

and she's trying to seduce him

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while his relationship with the

protagonist is trying to develop.

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So like I said, I'm not

a hundred percent sure

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Now that I've outlined the

archetypes, it's time to talk about

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the goal and the motivation for

at least the primary antagonist.

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His goal is really clear cut.

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He wants to be the most

powerful person in the world.

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Now this motivation may change, but at

the moment I'm considering it having

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something to do with perhaps his

brothers picking on him as children.

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Because he is different in some way.

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I have not decided what that difference

might be, but I like making it personal

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and about his brothers as his brother

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Plays a large role in the story.

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So that is what I'm thinking of for that.

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Now, personally, I don't really

like to stop at motivation.

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I want to consider what is also

at stake for him if he does not,

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and I want it, what's at stake

to be more than just his ego?

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So there is.

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The possibility for an impending

conflict or something like that,

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that he is trying to ensure that

he and his country can withstand.

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So that's what I'm thinking

of, potential stakes for him.

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That is all I wanted to share today.

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I honestly can't believe I forgot

to even consider exactly who

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the antagonist was going to be.

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I think with having just a general

archetype goal, motivation, and

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then a potential stake for him.

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Really just helps round him out,

at least for the outlining process.

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I can go into more detail

before I start writing.

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I can get a clearer picture of exactly

who the antagonist is and how the

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secondary antagonist and the tertiary

antagonist fit in to the story.

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But for now, I definitely

just wanted to make sure I

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had a basic outline for

the primary antagonist.

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And I hope that you do check out

writing about villains by Rayne Hall.

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It's a short, quick read and it's very

actionable and there's a lot of steps

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in there that I have not taken for my

antagonist as of yet, but that I may

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come back to when it actually comes

time for me to sit down and consider.

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Who exactly the antagonist is.

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So definitely give it a checkout.

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I will link it up in the show notes.

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And as always, thank you so much for

joining me and I will see you in the

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next episode, which is still not quite

outlining 'cause I'm surprised by

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the number of things that I forgot.

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So next we will be talking about, I

was gonna tell you what we were gonna

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talk about next, but I'm gonna keep

it a surprise because there might

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even be something else that should

come before, but we'll find out.

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But do know that, in either the next

episode or two, we will be talking

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about a supernatural story goal and

I'll be sharing exactly which writing

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craft book I got this idea from and why

I'm considering it for this project.

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Anyways, thanks again for hanging

out with me today, and I will

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see you in the next episode.

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Thanks for listening to the

Fiction Refinery podcast.

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Writing does not have to

be a solitary journey.

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We are in this together, and if today's

episode resonated with you, I'd love

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it if you subscribed and shared it

with another writer who might need it.

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And as always, if you want more

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to subscribe to my newsletter.

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The link is in the show notes.

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Until next time, happy writing.