The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around the imperative for educational leaders to genuinely engage with student voices, as articulated by our distinguished guest, Rhonda Simley, a middle school principal. She emphasizes that students are not merely seeking to be acknowledged in a superficial manner; rather, they yearn to be truly heard and understood in their experiences within the educational system. This episode delves into the critical distinction between schools that pay lip service to caring and those that actively foster a culture of belonging and empowerment. Principal Simley candidly addresses the uncomfortable reality that leadership must confront: the systems in place often fail to reflect the intentions of care that educators profess. Through this discourse, we challenge fellow leaders to reconsider their approaches, urging them to transform the educational landscape into one that prioritizes authentic connection and responsiveness to the needs of students.

Additional Notes

The dialogue featuring Rhonda Simley as a middle school principal delves into the complexities of educational leadership, particularly the imperative to genuinely heed student voices. This conversation is predicated on a previous episode where college students articulated their desire to be 'heard' rather than merely processed within the educational system. Simley reflects on this sentiment, asserting that contemporary students are increasingly vocal and assertive in their demands for recognition and agency within their learning environments. The discussion pivots on the critical distinction between being managed and being known, emphasizing the need for educational leaders to foster genuine connections with their students. Simley advocates for an educational culture that prioritizes student input in decision-making processes, thereby cultivating an environment where students feel valued and empowered. This episode serves as a clarion call for educational leaders to introspectively examine their practices and the systemic structures that may inadvertently alienate students, urging them to redesign educational experiences that are not only efficient but also deeply human-centered.

Takeaways:

1. In this episode, we learned that students demand to be heard rather than merely acknowledged, emphasizing the necessity for authentic engagement in schools.
2. Rhonda Simley articulated the profound importance of fostering student voice within educational settings, advocating for a culture that genuinely values student input.
3. The conversation highlighted that leadership must prioritize understanding the lived experiences of students to enact meaningful change within educational systems.
4. We discussed the critical distinction between schools that merely appear orderly and those that cultivate a genuine sense of belonging among students.
5. It was emphasized that true educational transformation necessitates educators to embrace vulnerability and prioritize building relationships with their students.
6. Rhonda Simley's insights reinforced the notion that leaders must continually reflect on their impact and legacy in order to foster a more inclusive and equitable educational environment.

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn — or find any of us there: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

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Until Next Time Remember: See every student. Keep your doors open and your hearts even wider.

In our last episode, three college age students told the truth about school from the receiving end.

They reminded us that students know the difference between a school that cares about them and a school that knows how to talk about caring.

They gave us a phrase we cannot shake.

Students want to be heard, not her did.

And that leaves school leaders with a harder question.

Kids do not experience our intentions.

They experience our systems.

So if students feel unseen, managed, or emotionally sidelined in schools full of adults who say they care, that is not a student perception problem.

That is a leadership problem.

In this episode, we asked principals what they are willing to do with that truth.

A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now, When.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse, where we navigate the intersection of education, leadership, and humanity to help schools become more future ready through coherent human systems.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, and this is episode five of season 12.

In our last episode, we heard from three college age students reflecting on what school felt like from the inside.

What they offered was not just a reflection.

It was a leadership challenge.

They told us they wanted to be heard, not heard.

Ed.

That phrase should stop every school leader in their tracks.

Because students know the difference between being supported and being managed, between being known and being processed.

They know when school is happening with them, and.

And they know when it is simply happening to them.

And the real culture of school is not what adults say they value.

It's what students feel.

On any ordinary Tuesday, a mission statement can say students first.

But students experience the truth in the hallway, not on the website.

Kids do not experience our intentions or they experience our systems.

So this episode is not about whether principals care about students.

Most do.

This episode is about something more uncomfortable.

Does that care survive contact with the systems they lead?

Too many schools confuse order with belonging, compliance with engagement, and efficiency with care.

A school can look calm to adults and still feel cold to kids.

And when students say they want to be heard, not heard.

Ed.

They are not asking for less structure.

They're asking for more humanity.

That means student voice cannot be treated like a ceremonial exercise or a branding move.

Student voice is not a public relations asset.

It is leadership intelligence.

And if students keep telling the same story, at some point, it's no longer feedback.

It's evidence.

So today we're asking principals to wrestle with some hard questions.

What does leadership look like when student voice is treated as real intelligence?

What does it mean to examine schedules, discipline, adult language, instructional expectations, and campus culture through the eyes of the students living inside them?

And what are leaders willing to confront if some parts of school still feel more efficient than human because human centered schools do not happen because adults mean well.

They happen when leaders are willing to notice what students actually experience and redesign what is not yet worthy of the young people in their care.

Let's get into it.

Good morning.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler and welcome to another episode of the Wheelhouse.

Again, I know I say this every week, but I'm super excited about this conversation as well because we're going to talk to two amazing educational leaders in this episode, and I think you're going to love hearing from them and having this conversation.

So before I introduce our first guest, let me welcome the wheelhouse team, Dr. Alicia Munro and Michael Pipa.

Welcome back to the Wheelhouse.

Good morning and welcome back.

Good morning.

Yay.

There we go.

That's perfect.

Our third panel is.

Kathy Mone is at a conference this week, so she will not be joining us but will be listening intently when this episode comes out on Tuesday.

Tuesday, March 24th.

So that's when this one drops.

Well, I want to jump right in.

You know, last week we had a conversation with three college age students.

And, you know, one of the things that I heard and I mentioned it in the intro is this brilliant concept, this brilliant idea that they said, you know, we want to be heard, not heard, did.

Right?

So that's heard H e a r d and not her did.

Right.

Like cattle.

And so I think that's just a really important.

It was a really important concept and idea for us all as educators to remember and I want to just pursue that with some genius educational leaders.

So I'm super excited to welcome Rhonda Simli, a middle school principal.

Right.

Welcome, Rhonda, to the Wheelhouse.

We are so glad to have you here.

I'm so glad to be here.

Thank you so much for the invitation.

Well, we're thrilled and we're.

I know we're going to have a great conversation and I know we're going to want to have you back.

Right.

To continue that conversation later.

Rhonda, I want to start with your reaction to what I just said.

Students, you know, what they told us, and they're only representing themselves, but I have to believe that that's a common idea.

Even though they were only speaking for themselves.

Right.

When you hear that sentence, that phrase, you know, we want to be heard.

H e a r d not heard.

Ed from your lens as an amazing middle school principal, what do you think about that?

When you hear that?

Oh, My God, I said when I heard that, it just gave me life.

Right.

Cause that truly does speak to the generation that we are serving today.

They have a voice.

They're bold, they're loud, and they do want to be heard.

And very often, as educators, I think we sometimes forget who we work for.

Right.

Our job is to make sure that students find their voice, that they have some input in decision making, that they have the opportunity to be creative and innovative.

And I'm glad to hear and see that students understand, like, this is about me.

Like my kids say all the time, Ms. Semley, I'm the bag.

And yes, you are.

And so my job is to make sure I cultivate their interests and their desires, their aspirations, because their voice does matter.

So I just absolutely love that.

I really think I'm gonna steal it, make it like a little campaign.

But that is truly where education is moving.

You heard it here.

Rhonda's got a new campaign.

Right.

And it started here in the wheelhouse.

Right.

So, you know, you are.

Middle school is such a really interesting, you know, time.

I mean, K12 is fascinating at every level for very different reasons.

But middle school is just really interesting.

And it takes.

It takes unique person who loves middle school.

When these students are starting to find their voice and really wanting to use it.

When a student says, I'm the bad, what does that mean?

That they know that they have value.

Right.

And very often, that level of confidence we haven't seen in education.

I've been in education for 26 years, and definitely based upon the current climate, the current infrastructure that we're moving towards, all of the different campaigns where we are teaching students to advocate, teaching people and communities to find their voice, to activate grassroots efforts.

I do think students understand that it's about me.

I don't have to play a backseat.

I don't have to dim my light to let somebody else shine.

I can truly create a space where I can be seen and heard.

And that type of culture.

Right.

Is how we transform education.

When students understand that their voices do matter, that they do have a space at the table, and when educators create that type of space, all you see is transformation evolving.

And that is definitely something that I take pride in fostering at my school.

Definitely advocating is something that I think I'm really, really good at.

I'm very transparent with my students as well as my staff.

And so having those courageous conversations comes naturally.

And so when you lessen the barriers, Right.

They're no longer a barrier anymore.

And so when we talk about Mental health.

And they see that their principal talks about therapy and allocating time for that and creating spaces and areas for people to come in and work with students.

It no longer becomes taboo.

Right?

And that's where I think we just have to be in regards to educating and evolving the young people that we service.

We truly have to let them see that it is all about them.

They can create any space that they want.

They can become whoever they want.

And that is, like I said, a lot of the great work that I see that we do here.

It's a pleasure to meet you today.

Right.

We've never met until today, but listening to you, listening to you is so inspiring because, you know, you obviously, long before, you know, you came to the wheelhouse, you have been trying to build this, what we call this human centered approach to education.

That's not the norm.

Yeah, that's not the norm.

So how do you know?

How do you.

Because we all live in this world where there's infrastructure wanting us to herd herd students, right?

Where there's the pressure for all these other things that have to happen.

Where and why did you decide that?

Human centered education.

That's what we call it, or you can call it whatever you want.

When did you decide that that was so important?

Because it seems to be that that's what you've dedicated to your career, to doing.

I mean, I guess I get tired of seeing the same rigama, rigmarole, wash, rinse, repeat students sitting there doing worksheets, you know, answering questions.

And you do want to advance education because you see how the world is vastly changing.

And so for me, it's about taking risk, you know, being unapologetic about the work that we do here and really maximizing and leveraging my students to really have those conversations, putting them in spaces where we not only talk with teachers about changing the norm, giving them opportunities to talk with district officials at the state level, even.

You know, I'm working on my doctorate, and I've had two of my famed students who are part of every campaign that I do speak about this.

Why is the work at my school so differently?

And it is because a lot of it is led by students.

And so, whereas that's not so comfortable for everyone.

I've been at this space for the past 10 years, and within 10 years, a lot of people have come and gone because this type of leadership is not for everyone.

However, the people that are here understand the assignment.

It is truly about pushing practice.

We can no longer educate students the way we did years ago.

And Very often that's what you see.

And that's why the data doesn't move.

Students are disengaged.

Chronic absentee continues to be on the rise because they're not being cultivated, they're not being exposed.

And I'm very fortunate that I have some partnerships with individuals who also have a very like mindedness around this work.

When I met Dr. Monroe, I was very clear that it was ordained.

It wasn't just haphazard, because when she came in talking about this invisible backpack that I've watched people carry for years, I understood what this was going to become.

And so the work that she's done with my staff and how open they have been to be reflective about their struggles, their challenges, you see shifts in the classroom, and that's what it's about, getting better every single day.

And so it just has to be a priority in all schools if we really want to see the pendulum shift in another direction.

Why do you think that that's so difficult for other educational leaders?

Because this obviously seems to be something that's just super easy for you and it's a passion for you, right?

It's a passion for you.

It's who you are.

Where do you see other people struggle with this shift from this efficient school where we're hurting everybody, toward a finish line to this human centered environment?

It's so funny you asked that question, Dr. Chandler, because I was talking to Dr. Moreau last week, just needing to decompress and reflecting on a conversation that one of my current staff members had with One of the APs in regards to the importance of building relationships.

And their response was, well, I'm not comfortable having those personal conversations with students.

Right.

And as you know, in this day and age, if you don't build community and students don't feel like you care what they think, then they don't care what you think.

Right.

So they have to feel as though you have a vested interest in them.

I will tell you, I have learned from Dr. Moreau.

When she first talked about the invisible backpack.

Right.

That students were carrying at my current building, more adults carry that invisible backpack than the students.

And because they're not comfortable being vulnerable, because we see vulnerability as a deficit and not a strength, a weakness.

Right.

They haven't been able to forge the relationships that so many kids need.

When you have a community where so many students are refugees, been in this country less than five years, you have to create a culture where community building is a part of the fabric.

It's woven into everything that we do.

And everyone is just not comfortable with that.

So what we do is really try to prioritize professional development around culturally competencies because that's important not just in the delivery of instruction, but facilitating restorative approaches and practices.

Right.

In team building, in collaborative conversations, really making it a focal point.

And I will say just being very transparent.

We had stronger partnerships years ago.

It really is hard to find an organization that can be as consistent as I need them to be.

To help address that, Dr. Moreau will tell you, I asked her husband, can she just move here for a couple of years?

I mean, I love Mr. Tony because he gives me two to three days.

Right.

A month.

And I'm just so appreciative.

But the realization is I need her every day because heavy is the head that wears the crown.

And you're talking about 1,100 plus students and 136 plus staff.

That's a different type of work.

And in order to really move that needle, we have to be consistent and relentless just around pushing educators to understand that vulnerability is your gift.

It is our gift when we can help students connect to some of the struggles.

Because we've been there, we've seen it.

Right.

It lets them see us from a humanistic perspective as opposed to just being an evaluator or as a teacher.

This individual understands my struggle.

And so I say every week on the morning show, my goal is that every student has at least one ally.

And if you don't have at least one, just know that you have me.

Right.

Because we have to let them know that they're not in this by themselves.

So it's really interesting as I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm like, oh my gosh, we could just keep playing this.

We just need to record for the rest of the day.

Right.

Let's just, let's just cancel school.

But you know, you're talking, you're talking less about pedagogy.

Yes.

And more about just teaching adults how to be human with children, which I think is just really fascinating.

Right.

That this is the focus of what.

And I completely agree, it's absolutely where we need to have the focus.

Right.

But so many people didn't go into education to be a part of a community.

The realization is, yes, you're right.

But that's the shifts.

And you definitely see that.

Being that I have a elementary lens as well, you definitely see more student centered opportunities at the elementary level as opposed to secondary.

You know, you think about secondary teachers go to school to learn pedagogy they go to school to learn how we're going to teach us history.

Right.

But in this day and age, it has to be some shifts in how we deliver the curriculum because students just don't learn in that capacity.

Right.

If you really want students to be locked in to what you're delivering, they have to be locked in, invested with the individual who is delivering the instruction.

And that's why, you know, a couple of years ago, I worked with a company I'm not going to name names, but a large company around how do we facilitate an instructional block that built in community builders.

And we talked about at the beginning of each lesson, as opposed to a warmup that was centered on what standard was being taught.

Right.

Create some opportunities and some prompts just around what was one thing you did fun last night?

Right.

What is something funny that happened?

Just those small little, you know, like I said, prompts or questions that help create an opportunity where students felt safe to respond.

Right.

Safe with their peers.

And it seems so simple, but so many people were so uncomfortable because very often teachers, especially teachers who have been in this profession for years, feel the need to control every narrative.

Right.

And that's just not how we build community.

Right.

Being comfortable and letting things organically happen and occur is really where we've seen more success.

And so in the spaces where they just talk about, you know, what they love about my class.

Right.

Or what areas I need to improve upon, when people are vulnerable at receiving the feedback from the people they serve their clients, you see a stronger level of engagement, you see better grades, you see students coming to school, you see students being comfortable at taking risk.

Right?

And that's the culture that we have to continue to push, and that's the culture we have to continue to build.

We do a lot of that here on a global level.

Just to give you an example.

Just so funny, somebody came in my office, and this is Women's History month.

Anybody who knows me knows I go big for women because women are clock that t. And we had a campaign where we printed out all of these rooted in gratitude for you, right?

In full bloom, honoring women who aspire.

And these are just the ones I got today.

And this is not about bragging about what I'm doing, because there's plenty of other teachers in this building that get more than me.

But this speaks to.

I know her.

I see her and she sees me.

And so having those moments where you make it very simple and plain, where I say to my staff, if you didn't get one of these cards, I need you to reflect on if you're in the right place.

Because this may not be for you.

Because if one student cannot say one thing that you've done to inspire them, that's a problem for me.

That's a problem for me.

And so, because this has been the norm, I've been here 10 years.

That's the culture.

And the students know that and so do the staff.

It's such a really important point.

Right.

That teachers forget about, is that the pedagogy will fall on deaf ears.

No matter how good it is, it will fall on deaf ears if we don't connect.

Yes.

With a student, human to human.

A student isn't going to learn algebra from Michael Piper until he connects with Michael Piper as a human.

Yes, it is.

It is, it is.

I mean, and to your point, everyone is just not comfortable with that.

But I have learned that's the invisible backpack that they carry.

And so until you pull back the layers, until you get them to take onus of some things they're struggling with, they will always falter.

And so you either grow or, as I like to say, you go.

But you're going to do one of the two things.

You're going to grow or you're going to go.

Because that's the work that has to be done here.

And because I encourage my students to find their voice.

They find their voice.

They will email me, they will come to my office.

They have no qualms.

And letting me know when something does not align with the way it should be at our school.

And everybody's not comfortable for that.

But I'm very clear that.

Whereas I definitely support teachers, but I work to empower students.

I love that.

I want to use.

You said you used a phrase earlier that I want to circle back to for a moment because I thought it was lovely when you described.

So some instruction is wash, rinse, repeat.

Yes.

I almost laughed out loud, but I did wanna stop so that I wanna make sure people could hear you.

Right.

That was hilarious.

Right?

Because I think sometimes, a lot of times we unintentionally.

I don't think anybody does that on purpose.

Right.

We unintentionally make students feel processed instead of known.

And I think there's a huge difference between a student who feels processed in education.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Right.

Versus known.

What are some ways that we unintentionally make students feel processed?

So before we go into that, I wanted to add, it's even more than process.

And I love that because I'm used to the wash, rinse, repeat cycle because I work with Rhonda so closely.

It's even deeper than that.

Especially for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, school spaces force them to shrink, to fit.

And in shrinking to fit, that's where we get the pushback, right?

That's.

That means that I have to relinquish pieces of myself, my identity, the beliefs and the values and the tradition that are near and dear to me because I have to fit and to the status quo.

So I have to go through this total imposter syndrome complex in order for the teacher to see me as what he or she wants me to be, not for who I am.

So I just like to add that piece onto it before Rhonda starts to respond.

I mean, and that's the truth.

And so like I said, when I talk, when you, when you said that, I wrote it down about being processed and not known is because very often in some classrooms, the only person who is learning is the teacher.

Because they're the only ones doing the talking, right?

And so if you're the only one talking, you're the only one who's engaged.

Who are you really working with and who are you working for?

And I just think it has become so habitual that we don't even think about that.

All you're doing the watch, rest, repeat.

But yet.

And still you complain that students aren't learning, right?

And you're right, they aren't.

But that's not because of them.

That's because you refuse to shift your practices, right?

You refuse to create collaborative conversations, right.

Or create spaces where students learn by doing.

Because that's the work, let's be honest.

That's the work.

It's not easy to teach in this day and age, as Dr. Monroe stated.

And so you have to get people who, who understand that I have to do some things different.

And so that reflective piece, that transparency piece, that vulnerability piece, is really something that we have to embody about every aspect of teaching and learning and leading if we really want to see a difference.

Because if not, you're just going through the motion, and then the.

And then the students know you're going through the motion.

And so that's why they cut your class.

That's why they don't come to school.

That's why they don't do their classwork.

That's why they don't do their homework.

Because for what?

You just doing this for you.

But how does.

How is this impacting me?

How is this inclusive of me, of my culture, of My sense of belonging.

And that's just.

And especially at a community school, when you think about those, those six pillars of community schools, they're there for a reason.

So how is the instruction that I'm providing embedded?

How are those pillars embedded in that?

And it's not.

It's not.

We're not looking at culturally responsive materials, books, lessons.

We're not connecting what they're doing to their community.

Right.

We don't build in multi tiered systems of support because that's the work.

That's the work.

And the realization is, I tell my staff all the time, they will never pay educators what they deserve.

But when you came into this profession, it should not have been about the work because they've never paid us what we deserve.

Our gratitude and our deems of success should come from the impact we've made on students when they can come back and talk about how something you said shifted my thinking to make me believe that I can achieve anything, or you going back to school at 54 years old to get your doctorate.

Show me that I can go to school anytime I want.

Right.

Even if it's not right now.

Right.

And so that's part of the community building that just has to happen.

And so I will continue to push that narrative.

I will continue to push those conversations because not everyone's comfortable doing so.

So I have one final question for Rhonda.

But before I ask her that question, Michael, what did you hear today that really resonated

so many things?

But here's where I'm going to jump in as a middle level educator, Principal Simile, talk to me a little about what is so unique in the developmental stage of middle level education.

We can argue about the importance of student voice at the elementary and at the secondary level when we get to high school.

But I believe you and I understand there's something really powerfully unique at work in those middle grades.

Can you talk a little bit about the timeliness of demanding a practice building wide that centers and elevates student voice?

It's just, it's, it's essential because it's either going to make you or it's going to break you.

It has to be the culture throughout the building, because if not, students know the shifts, students know the differences when they don't have it.

You know, and it's like I said, when you have such a large school, it's hard to kind of weed out.

I tell people, I use an example of it's like cutting on the lights and trying to kill all the cockroaches you just can't get them all, right?

But that's why you need multiple exterminators in the same space at the same time.

So calibrating with your leadership has to be consistent.

So we are looking for the same thing.

As I stated, I'm cutting on the light and I'm killing the cockroaches.

So when you're in this space with me, you're killing the cockroaches too.

But also, if you kind of filter down from just looking at it from the perspective of calibrating with your administration about what this looks like when you go in spaces and classrooms to empowering your teacher leaders to work with their peers on what this should look like in those spaces.

Because teachers listen to each other more than they listen to administrators because they deem us as a value team.

And I understand that.

So really building a shared understanding with my teacher leaders is key.

Because if not, it impacts my students because they know I can go in Beyonce's classroom and get a whole different experience than if I go in Jay Z's classroom.

And so that variance does not, it cannot occur under my watch and not be addressed because it impacts, as you said, so many different things, their self esteem, their mindset, the inclusivity that I'm trying to breathe.

And so it has to be part of the fabric, a part of the conversation consistently.

Because if not, they don't see themselves as being heard and they see themselves as a herd that's just moving through the pasture.

And that's just not gonna work for me.

Because you will never have transformation if everybody just follows the status quo.

Someone has to be empowered to be bold.

And that has to happen with us.

It has to happen with us because who else is going to do it?

Students spend the majority of their time at school and at my school because I'm moving towards being a 12 hour school.

They're here.

So the more that I can create space and opportunities for them to find their gifts, to take their natural talents and maximize them, to become gifts, right?

To take their interests and to explore how that can become revenue for them.

It's just very, very important.

And so in order to do that work, you have to build up a field of soldiers.

And so leadership teams, my leadership team, we meet twice a month for two hours because it's important to calibrate that, right?

You gotta calibrate, because if you don't calibrate, you can't build the muscle.

It's so much easier to just focus on content and data.

It's so much easier to do that.

And when you center things like student voice, especially at the middle level, where there are all sorts of developmental moves we as human beings have to make in order to.

To know our voice, to.

To use our voice with intent, to reflect on our intent, there are all sorts of moves that we have to learn how to do.

And it is messier at the middle level than is anywhere else, but it is absolutely essential that it's happening there.

And.

And so then you, as the point person of a leadership team in your building, you are the antidote to inertia and to people just wanting to narrow their focus.

And so I understand when you said earlier that you would like to have Dr. Monroe there every day because, you know, you've got big shoulders.

But the load is.

Is what it is.

Yes, it is.

It's heavy.

It's heavy, but it is the right work.

It is the right work.

And the energy is the right energy.

It is middle level energy works everywhere.

Dr. Monroe, what did you hear?

I heard so much.

You know, I processed through.

Through words and I took notes as we.

As we chatted.

And what I loved was the conversation around the status quo and moving from something that is control, right, to something that's transformational and transformative and that requires risk.

So we will all have to check ourselves for our risk tolerance.

But if we want to drive the education that our current generation needs, we really need to check our mental models and our risk tolerance in order to drive what is absolutely essential for the students and educators that come in with their invisible backpacks.

So I heard that.

Then I heard wash, rinse, repeat, and shrink to fit, which is so apropos to the traditional status quo.

It reminds me of when I went through school and I'm going to date myself.

We all sat in row and we had to keep our hands crossed in front of us with the number two pencil kind of vertical in front of us.

And we are ready for the line white paper to be laid on the desk.

And it was very different for me, okay, Because I was oftentimes the only student of color in my classroom.

So we're questioning shrinking to fit and the imposter syndrome.

Also heard that we have to be vulnerable, so we have to give a piece of ourselves.

We gotta give a piece of ourselves because a piece of ourselves is so essential to the formula for success.

So when we think about the humanizing approach to education, each one of us have to bring ourselves into the space to truly be collaborative and to create a true sense of Community.

So I wanna give Rhonda the last word.

Rhonda, you know, this is a podcast that we hope many, many educators, teachers are listening to.

And we know that we have listeners around the world, right?

Around the world.

What do you want to say to them?

Well, what I will say in just like I said, thinking about what I want my legacy to be.

You know, very often we hear the buzzwords transformation, innovation, change, right?

And very often we say we want change, but change comes at a cost and a price.

And very often people aren't willing to make the sacrifice and put in the time to implement the change.

And so the biggest thing that I would say to leaders, when you really think about what you want your legacy to be, make sure you sit down and talk to a student, because it's important to know what their needs are in order to fill their needs.

Not focusing on the data, because the data will always be the data.

The summative assessments will always be the assessments, right?

But where you really see transformation occur in society is how you have inspired a young person to reach their full potential and you've helped them navigate a path in order to do so.

And so I would just encourage any leader, teacher, leader, administrator, district leader, really think about, what do you want your legacy to be?

And when we talk about change, recognize it has to be be more equitable.

Black and brown students need to be included in the equation of implementing that change.

Right?

And they need to be given the space and the opportunity and the resources in order to do so.

And so that is something that I will continue to push for, I will continue to advocate for, and I will continue to use my resource to elevate that, elevate those voices.

Because very often they're not at the forefront of decisions that are being made that impact such a large group of students.

And those are words of wisdom by Rhonda Simley, a middle school principal in this great country.

Rhonda, thank you so much for joining us here in the Wheelhouse today.

And that's a wrap of episode 5 of season 12.

A Very Special thank you to our guest, middle school principal Rhonda Simli and the Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa and Dr. Alicia Munro.

As we close this episode, the challenge is not simply to admire student honesty.

The challenge is to respond to it.

If students are telling us they want to be heard, not heard, Ed, then leadership has to do more than celebrate student voice.

It has to interrogate the daily experience of school.

It has to ask what students feel in classrooms, hallways, offices, interventions, discipline systems, and adult interactions.

Because the test of a school's values is not what adults intended, it is what students experienced.

Kids do not experience our intentions.

They experience our systems.

That is the work.

Not polished mission statements, not performative care, not leadership language disconnected from lived reality.

Real leadership, the kind that is willing to listen without defensiveness, examine without excuse making, and change without delay.

Because a school can look calm to adults and still feel cold to kids.

And if students keep telling the same story, at some point, it's no longer feedback, it's evidence.

The most dangerous phrase in school leadership may very well be we already do that.

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Wheelhouse.

If this conversation challenged you, share it with a principal or a leadership team serious enough to ask not just what their school intends, but what their students actually experience.

Until next time, keep building schools where students are not simply managed well, but known well.