Is Marriage Outdated or Just Misunderstood?

Intro

What makes marriage different from just living together? Beyond saying it's "sacred before God," what's the real difference? This week at Crowd Church, Matt Edmundson shares his journey from broken thinking about marriage to discovering God's beautiful design for covenant commitment.

Growing up with divorced parents, Matt genuinely wondered if marriage was just an expensive party for something that wouldn't last. But through studying scripture on covenant for two years, everything changed. Discover why marriage isn't outdated - it's timeless, and why the problem isn't the institution but that we've forgotten what it actually is.

[03:00] What Makes Marriage Different?

The statistics tell a revealing story - in 1970, seven out of ten UK adults were married. Today it's four out of ten, predicted to drop to three out of ten by 2050. But we haven't stopped wanting committed relationships. We've just substituted marriage with cohabitation, which has increased 144% in the last 30 years.

"The problem isn't that marriage itself is broken. My thinking about marriage was what was actually broken."

What we discover:

• Why culture says marriage is outdated and unnecessary
• How living together has replaced marriage in many minds
• Why the "test drive before you buy" analogy misses the point
• What Matt's broken thinking about relationships looked like

Key takeaway: The problem isn't that marriage is broken - it's that we've forgotten what marriage actually is.

[08:00] God's Blueprint: Leave, Hold Fast, Become One

At the dawn of time, God gives the original blueprint for marriage in Genesis 2:24. In this tiny verse, we discover three powerful truths about biblical marriage.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

Biblical marriage means:

• Leave - putting your spouse above all other human relationships, even parents
• Hold fast - bonding permanently like super glue, not "let's see how it goes"
• Become one flesh - two separate people becoming one unified whole

Key takeaway: Marriage requires leaving your old way of living and choosing to put your spouse first in everything.

[12:00] The Challenge of Biblical Sexuality

Matt shares honestly about his struggle with biblical teaching on sex. At 18, driven by testosterone and cultural messaging, the idea that sex before marriage was wrong seemed completely outdated.

"God, I can believe all this gospel stuff - just don't ask me to stop having sex before marriage, because I'm not going to do it."

What changed everything:

• Understanding that sex is the ultimate covenant act
• Recognising you make covenant promises with your body
• Seeing that casual sex is impossible when you understand covenant
• Coming to a place of surrender, knowing God had a better plan

Key takeaway: Sex isn't just physical pleasure - it's covenant-making that binds you to one person for life.

[15:00] For Those in Complicated Situations

Not everyone's situation is straightforward. Maybe you've recently come to faith and you're living with someone you love. Perhaps you've bought a house together. Maybe your partner isn't yet a Christian.

"When Jesus met people in complicated situations, he didn't condemn them. He showed them a better way and gave them grace for the journey."

Practical guidance:

• Don't hide it from God - He's not shocked by your circumstances
• Have honest conversations with someone you trust in the Lord
• Remember God's grace covers you whilst you're figuring this out
• Understand that repentance matters for Christians acting against known truth

Key takeaway: God's design isn't about limiting your life - it's about showing you something beautiful worth moving toward.

[19:00] Why This Actually Matters

Why should anyone care what an ancient book says about relationships? Because the principles actually work in measurable ways.

"You might dismiss the source, but you can't dismiss the outcomes. If you want a good marriage, God's way is definitely the best."

Research validates God's design:

• 2-3 times higher satisfaction for sexually exclusive couples
• 50% lower divorce rates for those who prioritise their relationships
• More marriages stay together when couples don't live together first
• Couples attending religious services regularly are 50% less likely to divorce

Key takeaway: God's principles for marriage aren't just spiritual - they create better outcomes in every measurable way.

[22:00] Covenant vs Contract

Matt spent two years studying covenant, wearing out tape series (ask your grandparents what tapes are) to get this truth from his head to his heart. This study completely changed how he approached marriage.

"When Sharon and I met, the question wasn't whether I could marry her - I knew pretty quickly I could. The question was whether I wanted to be in covenant with her. That's a different question entirely because a covenant is laying down your life for someone else."

Understanding covenant:

• Contract is legal agreement; covenant is sacred bond before God
• Contract has exit clauses; covenant is permanent commitment
• Contract protects your interests; covenant means laying down your life
• In covenant, God is witness and participant, not just the couple

Key takeaway: When you understand you're entering covenant, not contract, you're not looking for a way out - you're committed for life.

[27:00] How You See Marriage Changes Everything

After 27 years of marriage, Matt can tell you it's still a wonderful thing. Not many people can say that. It doesn't mean it's easy or perfect, but how you see marriage dictates how you approach it.

"How you see marriage, relationships, your spouse, and sex - all of that dictates how you approach it."

Cultural shifts:

• Gen Z want marriage more than millennials - 75% vs 43%
• The new generation isn't rejecting marriage but the broken version they've seen
• Practising Christians have 20-25% divorce rate, but active attendance halves this
• There's hope - when we recover what marriage actually is, people want it

Key takeaway: Marriage isn't outdated - we've just forgotten what it actually is, and people are hungry to rediscover it.

[30:00] Conversation Street: Real Questions

The community brought honest questions about marriage, faith, and relationships. Here are the highlights:

Are we differentiating between Christian marriage and civil marriage?

Absolutely. This talk focuses on Christian marriage - covenant marriage before God. But what about couples married civilly who then both become Christians? Dan suggests there might be a decision to make: "We didn't quite know what we were getting into then - this is what we're going to do now." It was legal then, but now it becomes covenant.

The importance of making a decision

With cohabitation, there's often not been a decision - just lots of little steps until suddenly you're together. Dan emphasises: "You might have kids, but you've never looked at each other and said, 'If we started this again, would I be with you? Would this decision be for life?'" When you come to Christ, it might be time to make that decision - not to break things, but to take it forward into something more.

How does upbringing affect our view of marriage?

Sharon shares that at 24, she was shocked to see a married couple her age who still liked each other - she hadn't realised her expectation was that couples gradually hate each other more each year. Matt connects this to the parable of the sower: there's a process to successful marriages and a process to failed ones - it's not instant. That's why Dan told his kids: "Marriages don't just fail. Something's got to happen for it to fail, and something's got to happen for it to succeed."

Advice for younger people considering marriage

Be aware of pressure to marry quickly in Christian circles. Matt shares that recently there's been a spate of divorces from couples who probably shouldn't have married but lacked courage to break it off. "Sometimes the hardest thing you can do is break off a relationship if it's not right before God. Once you're in, you're in - you make that marriage work. Your 40-year-old self will thank you."

What helps a Christian marriage thrive?

Forgiveness and communication top the list. Matt and Sharon learned to "translate" - when Sharon would say something, Matt would go quiet and she'd ask, "Are you translating right now?" He was taking what he heard and thinking, "This is actually what she meant." When you walk in forgiveness, believing your partner has your highest best at heart even if they didn't communicate well, it transforms everything.

[44:00] Marriage Isn't Outdated - It's Timeless

The question isn't whether marriage is outdated or worth saving. The question is: are we ready to discover what it was always meant to be?

"Marriage is not outdated. It's timeless. The problem isn't the institution - it's that we've forgotten what it actually is. When marriage becomes a covenant and not a contract, everything changes."

Final encouragement:

• In covenant marriage, there's no room for porn - it breaks covenant
• Keep short accounts with your spouse - don't let issues fester
• Your drive is to honour Christ and build His kingdom together
• Marriage reflects Christ's eternal love for the church to a watching world

Key takeaway: Marriage isn't just about you and another person - it's about reflecting the eternal love between Christ and His church to a world that's forgotten what real love looks like.

About Matt Edmundson: Matt is the founding pastor of Crowd Church in Liverpool. He's been married to Sharon for 27 years and brings honest, practical wisdom about relationships forged through personal transformation and years of ministry. His journey from broken thinking about marriage to understanding covenant commitment offers hope that God can redeem anyone's perspective on relationships.

Hello and welcome to Crowd Church coming to you live

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from Liverpool this Sunday night.

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My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether

this is your first time or whether

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you've been part of our journey since the

beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

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We are a community of people figuring

out what it means to follow Jesus.

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In real life, not the polished,

perfect version, but you know, the

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messy, genuine, brilliant reality of

this whole thing called Christianity.

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So let me give you a little

roadmap of what's gonna be

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happening over the next hour.

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We'll have a talk, lasts about 20

minutes looking at the topic of

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relationships, which is the section of

our series becoming whole, that we are

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looking at exploring how Christ makes

us whole across every domain of life.

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After the talk, we've

got conversation streets.

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Oh yes.

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This is where we dig into what

you've just heard, and you get

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to be part of that discussion.

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So if you're with us live, jump into

the comments, share your questions,

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your thoughts, and your stories.

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And of course, if you're watching on

Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

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thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

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Right?

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Let's meet your hosts

and let's get started.

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Sharon Edmundson: Well, hello

and welcome to Crowd Church.

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Uh, my name's Sharon and I'm hosting

tonight along with the fabulous Dan.

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Dan Orange: Hello.

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Sharon Edmundson: Yeah,

it's great to be here.

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Um, tonight we have, well.

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We're part in a series to do with becoming

whole, and we've been doing this for

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many, many weeks and we're in a section

about relationships at the moment.

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And tonight we have the fabulous

Matt, I can say that he's my husband.

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Uh, he is actually gonna

be talking about marriage.

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So, um, yeah, Dan, yeah,

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Dan Orange: this'll be good.

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Will it?

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I'm looking forward to the

talk and I'm looking forward to

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Conversation Street afterwards.

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So ask all your questions.

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We actually got someone talking about

marriage and we've got the couple.

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Here.

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Yes, we do.

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So we should get some good answers.

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Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's potentially a, a, a quite a

tricky subject I think these days.

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Um, but I've listened to the talk already.

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Uh, well, I've, um, read the talk

already and it's got some just

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like really fabulous stuff in it.

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So what's gonna happen is we're gonna

have Matt do the talk now, and then

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after that we are gonna, me and Dan are

gonna chat about it and our thoughts.

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Matt's gonna join in the

conversation, but we also want

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you to join in the conversation.

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Do as he's talking, put your comments in

the in the comment section and we will

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try to pick up on those as we go along.

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So I will hand over to Matt.

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Matt Edmundson: Well, thank you very much.

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Thank you very much.

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It's great to be here.

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And like Sharon said, uh, we are

talking about marriage tonight and I'm

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doing that my, whilst my wife is here,

so I have to be on my best behavior.

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Uh, and so, uh, a very, very

warm welcome to you Crowd Church.

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Great to be with you this evening.

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Uh.

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Is marriage outdated or

is it just misunderstood?

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That's the question that we are

gonna be looking at tonight.

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So let me start by asking

you a simple question.

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What makes marriage different

from actually living together?

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Good question.

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Right now, early in my Christian walk.

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I couldn't actually explain why a

piece of paper and a religious ceremony

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actually mattered other than to say

it was something sacred before God.

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That's probably about

as far as I could get.

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Right.

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Uh, because deep down I thought maybe

actually there wasn't that much difference

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between marriage and just living together.

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Maybe marriage is just a sort

of an outdated institution.

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I dunno what you think

to, maybe it's something.

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We clung to out of habit or

maybe a sense of religious duty.

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Now, my parents, uh,

divorced when I was young.

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I was about nine years old.

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Dad moved out.

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Uh, I saw him every weekend and on

Tuesdays, and I love both my parents both.

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Uh, yeah, they are.

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Uh, wonderful people in so many

ways, but neither was exactly

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a poster child for successful

relationships for me growing up.

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Um, and that's okay.

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You know, so when someone challenged

me about marriage, part of me thought,

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well, maybe marriage is actually just

a really expensive party, you know, for

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something that probably won't last anyway.

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But looking back, I can see

that the problem isn't, that

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marriage itself is broken.

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But my thinking about marriage

was what was actually broken.

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So spoiler alert, fast forwarding all

the way to the end, I do not think,

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uh, that marriage is outdated to

answer the question in tonight's title.

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Uh, but I do wonder if the problem is that

we've forgotten what marriage actually is.

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And to be fair, to my younger

self, I wasn't the only one.

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That thought the way that I did.

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In 1970, which I appreciate

is going back a long time.

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Uh, seven out of 10 adults

were married in the UK.

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Today it's four out of 10, and it's

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of 10 people will actually be married.

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Right.

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So what's happening?

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Is it a case of we just don't

like each other anymore?

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Maybe that's what's going on.

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I don't think it is.

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Uh, I think the reality has been actually,

there's been a shift from marriage

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to cohabitation to living together

without actually getting married.

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And that.

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Increased by 144% in the last 30 years.

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I'm not gonna give you too

many stats tonight, but I find

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these stats quite interesting.

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Uh, so we've substituted marriage with

living together, thinking in essence

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that they're probably the same thing,

which is why the question, what makes

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marriage different from living together?

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A really, really interesting

question for a Christian.

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The cultural message, I

think is pretty clear, right?

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Marriage is outdated, it's

unnecessary, and actually.

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According to certain sectors of

society, it's potentially harmful.

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I mean, why would you tie yourself down

legally when you can just live together?

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Why make promises you might not be able

to keep and living together first, right.

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Makes all the sense in the world.

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It's a bit like, if I can put

it, so crudely, test driving a

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car before you buy it, right?

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And I get it.

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I do.

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Growing up, uh, marriage didn't look.

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Like, uh, something you'd

want to sign up for.

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Like I said, my parents got divorced

and it kind of taught me that marriage

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ends and that people fall out of

love and that promises get broken.

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As a teenager, I have, I had

no problem, uh, having more

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than one girlfriend at a time.

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It was, it was almost like a

competition, if I'm honest with

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you, between me and my mates.

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Uh, another notch, another number.

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You know, the conquest became

more important than the person.

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Not a great way to

treat, uh, relationships.

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I was unkind.

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Never really given myself to the other

person, didn't trust them, and I cheated

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because that's what guys did, right?

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At least.

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That's what I learned from the culture

that was around me at the time.

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This was my.

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This was my broken

thinking about marriage.

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It was my broken thinking

about relationships.

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And when I first started going to church,

I expected really to find more of the

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same, you know, the same sort of broken

relationships that I'd seen outside the

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church, just with religious people, uh,

pretending maybe that they were fine.

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Um, and of course, what I found

in the church wasn't perfect,

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not by any stretch, but.

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It was so very different, uh,

from anything I'd seen before.

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Not only was everybody, it seemed

married, but actually most of them

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seemed happy about it as well.

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They enjoyed each other's company.

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They laughed together,

which just blew my mind.

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They went on dates, who knew?

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Right?

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They held hands in public and everything.

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Uh, and they were courteous to each other.

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More than that, they invited you into

their homes where you could see the real

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life of their marriage and you would

see how they did disputes and how they

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did, you know, falling out and how they

resolved that and how they supported

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each other through difficult times.

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So yes, they had arguments,

but they remained respectful.

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And the big one for me, which

always spoke well to me.

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Was actually, they always

spoke well of their spouse.

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Especially when their spouse wasn't there.

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You'd never hear anyone bad

mouth or tell dirty jokes.

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So I started to see that marriage could

be different, which is great, but to

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get there, God had to fix my broken

thinking about relationships and any

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good place to start when you know you've

got broken thinking is with the Bible.

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Because it tells you what marriage

is and what your responsibility as a

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husband or as a wife is, which is one

of the reasons maybe culture doesn't

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like the idea of marriage because

it actually carries this idea of

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responsibility and not just responsibility

on its own, but responsibility

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before God, which I appreciate.

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Neither of those things

is a very popular idea.

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But in Genesis writes, at the

dawn of time, God gives us his

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original blueprint for marriage.

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It says in the book of

Genesis, chapter two, verse 24.

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Therefore, a man shall leave his father

and his mother and hold fast to his

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wife, and they should become one flesh.

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So in this tiny verse, we learn

three very powerful things about

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marriage, about biblical marriage

and what it is that we should

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really, really get our heads around.

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And so the first one is this.

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It says that they leave.

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This isn't just about moving

out of your parents' house,

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although that's part of it.

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Men listen up especially, uh,

it's a fundamental shift where the

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marriage bond takes priority over

all other human relationships.

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It is leaving your

lifestyle of singleness.

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It is leaving your way of doing things,

and practically even it's about leaving.

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Gifts or love letters

from your ex as well.

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It's about leaving this sort of

unconscious expectation that you

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have of your future spouse even.

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Practical things.

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I dunno if you had this

done, how you do Christmas.

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Yeah.

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Um,

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Dan Orange: that's a big one.

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That's a big

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Matt Edmundson: one, right?

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How do you do Christmas?

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Like with different traditions, uh,

that you grew up with, your spouse grew

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up with, everyone's got expectations

about Christmas, you are leaving.

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All of that behind.

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And you are choosing to put

your spouse first, above family,

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friends, career, everything.

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And I think this idea of leaving is

a revelation in and of itself because

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so many people that I know get married

wanting to keep one foot, uh, in their

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old way of living rather than leaving it.

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If we get the revelation about

leaving, I think it would change our

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marriages, but it's not the only thing.

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It is the first thing you leave,

uh, but it's not the only thing.

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So second.

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Genesis talks about holding

fast, hold fast to your wife.

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The Hebrew word means to stick like glue,

which I think is a really good thing

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to bond permanently, like super glue,

you know, like five minute epoxy resin.

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Uh, for those of you who work in wood,

uh, it's to just permanently bond, right?

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Um, it's not.

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It's not a, oh, let's see how it

goes, or as long as we're happy.

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It is a deep unbreak, unbreakable.

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It's a deep unbreakable covenant

connection, uh, that encompasses emotional

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and spiritual and physical unity.

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Um, if you hold fast, if you bond.

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To your spouse.

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You don't need to have an emotional

affair with another person.

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And men especially, listen, if you

hold fast to your wife, you will not

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need to look at another woman ever.

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And if you do, if you catch yourself

doing that, remind yourself hold

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fast to your wife right now.

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In the Old Testament, uh, there is a book

written by a guy called Malachi, which is

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one of the coolest names on the planet.

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Uh, he was a prophet and he wrote, um,

that the Lord was witness between you

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and the wife of your youth, to whom?

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You have been faithless though.

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She's your companion and

your wife by covenant.

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Some really strong language,

some really choice words.

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God is a witness to how men listen.

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God is a witness to how

you treat your wife.

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She's your partner and

your companion by covenant.

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And God doesn't just see this.

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Uh, as a human agreement,

like some kind of contract.

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It's a sacred covenant with God, the

creator of the universe, watching

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and participating and witnessing, and

you have to hold fast to that you've.

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Got to be committed

because this takes effort.

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It takes intentionality.

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You cannot be passive in your marriage

because if you are, I think you're

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gonna head for danger and you are

gonna get there very, very quickly.

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You have to hold fast to your spouse.

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Genesis also tells us, uh, beyond

holding fast, uh, beyond leaving,

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it talks about becoming one flesh.

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Now one flesh.

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This is the mystery at

the heart of marriage.

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Two separate people becoming one unified

whole in every aspect of life, especially.

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But not solely in the area of sex,

which we are gonna talk about a little

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bit, uh, because this was a massive

barrier, uh, to Christianity for me

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personally, for a long time when I was

18 and driven by, well driven and fueled

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by testosterone and cultural messaging,

uh, the idea that sex before marriage

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was wrong, seemed completely outdated.

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Uh, I did not.

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Enjoy it.

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Did not think it was right to quote George

Michael, that well-known sage of wisdom.

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Uh, sex is natural.

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Sex is good.

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Not everybody does it,

but everybody should.

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And I was firmly in that

school of thought, right?

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I was there.

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And so when I started going to

church, when I was about 18 years

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old, there was this silver head, uh,

preacher, an older guy, and it felt

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honestly like he talked about sex.

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Every single week, he could not

get off the topic it seemed.

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And I remember sitting there

in church thinking there was

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something wrong with that dude.

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Uh, because he would talk about

it as though it was an evil thing,

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as though something was wrong.

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And I didn't listen to him for months.

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I thought he was a bit of a nutter.

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I'm not gonna lie, I thought.

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I thought the gospel thing.

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Okay.

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And I remember praying in church

probably for the first time

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actually after hearing the gospel.

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And I remember saying to God, and

I can picture where I was when I

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said this, God, I can believe all

of this, this whole gospel thing,

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that Jesus came and died for me.

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Just do not ask me to stop

having sex before marriage, um,

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because I'm not gonna do it.

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And it was a real barrier for me.

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You know, how could something

so natural be so wrong?

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But eventually.

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Um, it took a while, a little while,

but eventually, uh, I came to a place of

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surrender when God knocked, uh, on the

door, um, of my heart, and that's where I

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gave that part of my life to him as well.

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Every part of it.

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I didn't particularly enjoy

the idea of doing that.

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I didn't.

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Didn't think it was right.

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Um, I'm not gonna lie, uh, but I knew

that God had a better plan in this and

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I just had to find out what that was.

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Now I know, uh, some of you

watching this are navigating,

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uh, complicated situations.

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Maybe you've recently come to faith and

you are living with someone you love.

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Perhaps you've even

bought a house together.

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Maybe your partner is not

yet a Christian, but you are.

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They're still on their own faith

journey, and I think there are real life

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situations that don't have simple answers.

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Right.

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It's not as straightforward as me

going, well, you should, should not

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do that because I don't think that's

actually right, and I'm not here

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to add guilt or pressure to you to

make a hasty decision that might not

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make sense for you or your family.

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What I want you to hear is that God's

design for marriage and sexuality

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isn't about limiting your life, though.

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It's about showing you something beautiful

and something that's worth moving toward.

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When Jesus met people in complicated

situations, he didn't condemn them.

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He just kind of, he showed

them a better way, didn't he?

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And he gave them grace for the journey.

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So if you are in one of those

situations, let me encourage

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you to do a couple of things.

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One.

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First, don't hide it from God.

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He knows about it.

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You can talk to him about it.

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You can pray, uh, without

feeling condemned.

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He's not shocked by your circumstances.

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And I think sometimes we, we think

something's wrong, so we just lock that

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away in our hearts, which is what I did

for a little while, but actually talking

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to God about it and bringing it to God.

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I think is a, is a perfectly

sensible thing to do.

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The second thing, uh, I would probably go

and have some honest conversations with

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someone you know and trust and actually

respect in the Lord, as in there are,

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they are a good, solid Christian who've

been a Christian for a while, um, and that

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can help you navigate what's going on.

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And third, remember that God's

grace covers you whilst you

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are figuring all of this out.

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So if it's a complex situation, if

you're in those situations, don't panic.

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Don't worry.

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It's okay.

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Just enjoy the journey with God.

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Now that said, if you are already a

Christian or you were a Christian, a

342

Christ follower, and then you started

to have sex outside of marriage, um, I

343

think that's a different situation, if

I'm honest with you, and if I'm gonna

344

be totally straight 'cause of time.

345

I think that requires repentance

because you are acting against

346

what you know to be true.

347

Right.

348

And I think that has

complications on your marriage.

349

It really does.

350

And we'll, we'll come to that.

351

But why?

352

I mean, let's ask, let's be real, right?

353

Why uh, is this a problem?

354

What's it all about?

355

Because like I said, I had

to definitely understand God.

356

God would not spoil my fun.

357

Surely.

358

It's okay if you love each other, right?

359

Well, remember Malachi said that she is

your companion and your wife by covenants.

360

So marriage is a covenant, something we

hold fast to, we leave everything else.

361

We hold fast and covenant to our

spouse and we become one flesh.

362

And I think even our biology,

uh, is geared towards that.

363

So we can see that sex is more

than just phy physical pleasure.

364

It is the ultimate covenant

act, uh, creating one flesh in

365

the most intimate way possible.

366

And I think when you understand

that casual sex becomes impossible

367

because you're not just having fun.

368

You understand from scripture, you're

making covenant promises to that

369

person with your body that maybe

your heart isn't ready to keep.

370

And I think you're given away part of

yourself that was designed to bind you

371

to one person, your spouse, uh, for life.

372

But why should I care?

373

Why should I care what an ancient

book says about relationships?

374

Right?

375

Why should I leave?

376

Why should I hold fast?

377

Why should I hold the sacredness

of becoming one flesh?

378

Honestly, I think you do that

because the principles actually work.

379

Yes, you do.

380

Now, the research, uh,

actually validates this idea.

381

This, uh, validates God's idea for

marriage works in measurable ways.

382

Like you are gonna have two to

three times higher satisfaction.

383

Um, if you are a sexually exclusive

couple, 50% lower divorce rates.

384

For those who prioritize

their relationships, more

385

marriages stay together.

386

If the.

387

Couples don't live together

before they get married, which

388

is interesting, isn't it?

389

Perhaps you can dismiss the source.

390

Maybe you're not, you know, into God.

391

Maybe you think this is all a bit

weird, Matt, I'm not gonna lie.

392

Uh, but you can't dismiss the outcomes,

the principles of covenant marriage work.

393

If you want a good marriage,

God's way is definitely the best.

394

So I don't think marriage is outdated.

395

I think it's timeless right now.

396

Early in my Christian

walk, I had a tape series.

397

Shows you how long ago it was.

398

It was on tape.

399

Uh, a tape series.

400

If you dunno what a tape series is

or if you dunno what a tape was,

401

uh, ask your parents and if they

don't know, yeah, you're gonna

402

have to ask your grandparents.

403

Sorry.

404

Uh, it just is what it is now.

405

I had six of these things, six

tapes, six hours of teaching on

406

the topic of covenants, right?

407

And I wore those tapes plumb out,

how much I listened to that message.

408

I listened to it over and over

again because I knew there was

409

something I had to get from my head.

410

To my heart, there was something

that God had in there, so I

411

immersed myself in that topic.

412

Remember I had broken thinking,

how do you resolve broken thinking?

413

You get into the Bible, and for

me, I looked at this topic all

414

about covenant, and it was in that.

415

Study that I stopped dating.

416

I made this decision to stop

dating, uh, in my Christian,

417

in my early Christian life.

418

I didn't put a time limit on it,

but it ended up being a couple

419

of years, uh, which in itself

is a bit of a miracle for me.

420

Not gonna lie.

421

Uh, I took time to study the scriptures,

like I said, on covenant, on marriage,

422

on relationships, on this idea of sex.

423

I stood at it.

424

From cover to cover, and I wrote

out all of these ideas that I

425

gained over that brief time, and

I put them in a little mini book.

426

Um, the first thing that I ever wrote

down, really, so you can take a look at

427

this for the cover Design, A Guide to Date

and Sex and Marriage by Matthew Edmundson.

428

Notice how, how graphically

the M turns into the e.

429

Awesome.

430

That's awesome.

431

I wrote this in 95.

432

I know that.

433

'cause it says Frontline

Church on the bottom.

434

Um, and that's when I

worked for Frontline.

435

So this is, this is what I did.

436

Um, the other day.

437

I got a, the other day, a couple

weeks ago actually, I got a text

438

message from my friend guy called

Tony Odin who's been on Crowd.

439

Um.

440

He just moved house, moved house a couple

weeks ago, and when he moved house,

441

he sent me that photo that you just

saw because he's found, I think, the

442

only copy of that thing in the world,

which is promised to use as blackmail.

443

So, thanks, tone.

444

Um, in fact, he and Ian Dowsett, who's

also been on Crowd, uh, were my best men.

445

And, uh, you'll see in this

photo, uh, there's a copy of

446

the book cover in front of them.

447

They were using it in

their best man's speech.

448

Uh, let me tell you, there was

banter, there was laughter.

449

They ripped into me.

450

Uh, and quite rightly so, if I'm

honest with you, 'cause I would've

451

done exactly the same if it was them.

452

But lemme tell you, it was such a

formative time for me, um, because

453

I had to really seriously rewire.

454

My thinking, God had to do a

work in me about relationships.

455

And that study, which lasted at

least two years, that mini book

456

actually as cheese testic as that

book probably is, I don't read it now.

457

Um, it actually changed my life.

458

So when Sharon and I met, um, the

question wasn't whether I could marry her.

459

I knew pretty quickly actually that

I could, um, the question was whether

460

I wanted to be in covenant with her.

461

You know, you think about that question

differently because a covenant is a

462

laying down of your life for someone else.

463

And it took me a few weeks to

make that decision, not because I

464

was uncertain about my feelings.

465

I was very certain about those, but

because I understood the weight of

466

what I was committing to, we didn't

live together before we got married.

467

We didn't have sex outside of marriage.

468

We did it God's way.

469

We did it the right.

470

Um, and I knew that I was entering into

a covenant, not a contract, and I knew

471

that God had witnessed this whole thing.

472

He witnessed our marriage, he'd

got involved and it was serious and

473

it was for the rest of our lives.

474

And lemme tell you, it was

a great decision, right?

475

Yeah.

476

You sure

477

The best decision ever?

478

Oh, yes.

479

Uh, now I was not looking for a way

out when we got married because I

480

understood what I was getting into, right?

481

It's really important you don't

look for a way out when you know

482

what it is you're getting into.

483

And I learned that how you see marriage,

how you see relationships, how you see

484

your spouse, how you see sex, all of that

dictates very much how you approach it.

485

So my testimony is simply this,

that God took someone like me with

486

broken thinking about marriage and

about relationships and restored me.

487

And I cannot begin to tell you how

grateful I am because after 27 years of

488

marriage just looking at you to check

his 26, 27, uh, I can tell you that is

489

still a really, really wonderful thing.

490

And not many people can say that.

491

So it does not mean it is easy or perfect.

492

Uh, practicing Christians still

have a divorce rate of about 20

493

to 25%, which is both sad and bad.

494

Um, it's not great, but couples

who attend religious services

495

regularly are 50% likely to divorce.

496

Um.

497

There's something in this, isn't there?

498

So yes, there is still divorce in

the church, but if you are active

499

in your faith, that divorce rate

halves and there's a shift in culture

500

too, which I find quite fascinating.

501

So Gen Z or Gen Z, do you know

what's the right way to say it?

502

Do you know?

503

I dunno.

504

Gen Z.

505

In Gen Z.

506

Okay.

507

Uh, actually once, uh,

marriage, they wanna get married

508

more than millennials did.

509

So 75% of Gen Z want to get married

compared to only 43% of millennials.

510

That's a big swing, isn't it?

511

It seems like the new generation are not

rejecting marriage, but rather this sort

512

of broken version of marriage that maybe

they've seen or tried to have been sold.

513

So, you know what?

514

My three kids have grown

up in a stable home.

515

Uh, well stable as I can make more

stable 'cause of you rather than me.

516

Probably, uh, they've seen a

marriage, uh, that works not because

517

we're perfect, although, you know,

you are obviously very close.

518

But, um, but because we understand

covenant, which means men.

519

In the covenant, in marriage, there

is no room for porn, none whatsoever,

520

because that breaks covenants.

521

I keep short accounts with Sharon.

522

We know our roles, our purpose,

and our drive is to honor Christ

523

and build his kingdom together.

524

So marriage is not outdated.

525

It is.

526

Timeless.

527

The problem isn't the institution.

528

I think it's that.

529

Maybe it's, we've forgotten

what it actually is.

530

And when marriage becomes a covenant

and not a contract, everything changes.

531

Research even tells us that.

532

Tells us, you know, if you are

married, you are literally, uh, gonna

533

live longer and healthier lives.

534

Uh, but that change starts with

understanding that isn't just

535

about you or another person.

536

It's about reflecting the eternal

love between Christ and his

537

church to a world that is maybe

forgotten what real love looks like.

538

So the question then isn't whether

marriage is outdated or whether

539

marriage actually is worth saving.

540

The question is maybe, are you ready to

discover what it was always meant to be?

541

That's its.

542

Sharon Edmundson: Thank you for that.

543

Uh, can I just say I am very, very

grateful for all the, the study that

544

you've done with about marriage before we

got married, and I'm also really grateful

545

for the work that God done in did in my

own life before we got together because

546

I think without that we would've been an

absolute disaster together, uh, between us

547

and our stuff, but um, yes, we would've.

548

Yeah.

549

So I think.

550

The, the talk, although we've

been married 27 years, I love

551

hearing about Covenant again.

552

Um, and I think in that talk there

was lots of challenge and there

553

was also lots that was really

bumping heads with our culture.

554

So, yeah.

555

Um, so I wanna start this

with, um, Heather has Oh, hi to

556

everyone in the chat by the way.

557

We've got, um, Heather, Matt a.

558

Jan.

559

Hello everybody.

560

Uh, but Heather's put

really good point here.

561

Uh, she said, are we differentiating

between a Christian marriage

562

and church versus a civil

marriage versus living together?

563

Um, the answer to that is yes, absolutely.

564

What we're talking about here is.

565

Christian marriage.

566

So it's marriage for those who want

to follow Jesus and want to follow

567

the pattern that God has laid down.

568

We're not talking about those

outside the church, although, um,

569

I do believe that a lot of the, the

principles are good for everybody.

570

Yeah.

571

You got any thoughts on that?

572

Dan Orange: No, I, I, I read that

question and, um, yeah, I thought, well,

573

that's, that's, that's an easy answer.

574

And then I thought.

575

Oh.

576

What about when, if you, you've been

married, let's say, whether it was a

577

church marriage or a civil marriage,

then you both become Christians.

578

You, you might have said those vows

before God or before someone that, you

579

know, there's not a sort of religious or

Christian is, is there a decision there

580

that, that perhaps you should say to God?

581

We didn't know quite what

we were going into then.

582

This is what we're going to do now.

583

Perhaps it was legal back then.

584

Yeah.

585

And now it's, now it's covenant.

586

Now it's, it's got something

more than the the legal tick.

587

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah,

that's an interesting point.

588

I think that kind of touches

on where Matt says that life

589

actually is quite messy, isn't it?

590

And yeah, I think there is that hole.

591

Okay.

592

We've.

593

We've committed to this marriage on

one set of understanding, but actually,

594

um, now that we are Christians,

our understanding is changing and

595

broadening or, you know, deepening

with what God intended it to be.

596

And yeah, I think it's an

exciting journey potentially.

597

Dan Orange: Yeah.

598

Yeah, I think so.

599

And I, I think perhaps that's for

me, one of the, apart from, let's

600

take, let's take God out of it.

601

Oh, you see what I mean?

602

In a minute?

603

Good luck with that.

604

Yeah.

605

The, the, the big thing with.

606

Cohabiting and, um, like living

together and marriage is, there's

607

often not been a decision.

608

There's been lots of little,

oh, you know, I like you.

609

Come back to mind, da, da, da.

610

Oh, stay over.

611

Oh, my toothpaste is with you.

612

You know, and, and

you've got to that stage.

613

You're together.

614

You might have kids, but you've never

perhaps looked at each other and said.

615

If we started this again,

would I be with you?

616

Would this decision be for life?

617

Yeah.

618

Um, and then we can put God back in

and see what is, you know, that he,

619

that it's a good idea what he's done.

620

That we have to make that decision.

621

And I think when you, when you come to

Christ, it might be that decision to

622

make between each other and, well, not,

perhaps not a decision because you're not

623

gonna break it, but to say to each other.

624

This happened, but now let's, let's

take it forward into, into more, yeah,

625

Sharon Edmundson: yeah, definitely.

626

Um, I just wanna backtrack

a little bit if that's okay.

627

So Matt started off by talking about

how his, um, experience growing up

628

with his parents' divorce shaped

his view of what marriage should be.

629

I just wondered if you've got any

thoughts on that for yourself.

630

Dan Orange: Sorry, I was just.

631

I'm just reading my notes.

632

Distracted.

633

Okay.

634

Sharon Edmundson: So, um, yeah,

how, how was your upbringing?

635

How did your upbringing Yeah.

636

Affect your view of marriage?

637

Dan Orange: Um, I had a

really good upbringing.

638

Upbringing, so I've had been

in sort of surroundings of, of

639

marriage, a stable marriage.

640

My dad was the pastor of church.

641

Those around him.

642

I, I don't know if when I actually came

across someone that had been divorced,

643

you know, just even in that circle of

friends, so it wasn't something that

644

I ever thought would, would happen.

645

Um, so that, that definitely

affected my, um, uh, what what I see.

646

And I've had to have tricky

conversations just recently with my,

647

my kids because around us they've

seen marriages that aren't working.

648

And I had to say to 'em,

do you know marriages don't

649

just, they don't just fail.

650

It's, it's like Matt said, you can't

be passive in a, in a marriage.

651

You got to be active that something's

got to happen for it to fail and,

652

and happen for it to succ succeed.

653

So I wanted to pass that on

to, so they didn't see a round.

654

That, that mine and Lisa's marriage

was what they saw as, as stable,

655

not what was going on around.

656

Matt Edmundson: It's a

really interesting point.

657

There's, there's a, a

parable in the Bible.

658

It's called the parable

of the Sower, right?

659

And this is, it talks about seed

being so, and it talks about.

660

The seed being God's word and

how it bears fruit in our lives.

661

And in that it talks about how

the deceitfulness of riches, the

662

cares of this world and the desire

for other things come in and choke

663

the word and make 'em fruitful.

664

And the analogy it gives is

like weeds growing up around

665

something that's fruitful.

666

And so both are growing together and

eventually the weeds overcome it.

667

That's a process.

668

Right.

669

It's not like it just was

really strong and fruitful and

670

then the next day it wasn't.

671

There's a process, there's a

choking, and I think that's true

672

of so many failed marriages.

673

There's a process, like you

say, and there's a process to

674

successful marriages and there's

a process to marriages that fail.

675

It's not an instant thing.

676

So I think it's a really good point.

677

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

678

I just wanna say here as well that if

you are someone who's divorced, please

679

do not, um, take this as condemnation in

any way that we will stand here as people

680

saved by God's grace and that, you know.

681

All of us have got stuff and, um, but

that God is able to redeem situations

682

and to bring good out of yeah.

683

Situations that might been

really painful for you.

684

Um, so yeah, so please don't.

685

Take that as condemnation.

686

Um,

687

Dan Orange: yeah, absolutely.

688

We're not, not perfect.

689

And, and, and I, I would say if, if your

marriage is struggling or even if it's

690

just, you know, doing fine, get, get to

know other solid married couples and,

691

and chat with them and, and communicate.

692

We, um.

693

We had a tricky time in our marriage,

probably about 10 years ago, and

694

Dave Cony was speaking last week.

695

We got him and his wife on the phone.

696

We said, you need to come over.

697

We were cleaning the oven.

698

We were cleaning the oven.

699

That's, that's what tipped it over.

700

Cleaning the oven.

701

Yeah.

702

I can't even remember all

the details now, but we.

703

We are like for, for this day on.

704

We just, we get someone to clean our oven.

705

Now it's like, that's

a well worth expense.

706

It might.

707

Marriage

708

Matt Edmundson: tip there.

709

Ladies and gentlemen.

710

Uh, you wanna stay married longer,

get someone in to clean your oven.

711

Um, the trip now is to try

and find a Bible verse.

712

Dan Orange: Yeah, I'll just

say, that was just for us.

713

It was something that just tipped us

over the edge and we thought, yeah,

714

we got a good solid married couple

to come over and we just chatted

715

through things and the byproduct was.

716

Yeah, we move on.

717

But yeah.

718

Yeah.

719

Someone else squeezes our oven,

720

Sharon Edmundson: I think.

721

'cause that is the thing, isn't it?

722

Like God's plan for marriage is a

fabulous one, but actually in reality,

723

sometimes it can be really difficult.

724

And I think most marriages hit these

really tricky patches that sometimes

725

you, you need extra help to be able to.

726

Get through them.

727

Not just to survive, but to actually

deal with the issues going on so that

728

you come out better, not so that you're

just hanging onto a bad marriage for the

729

sake of it, but so that you can thrive

and actually have a fabulous marriage.

730

Dan Orange: And do you know that that

time has it helped our marriage because

731

our communication was on a level

which was okay, but, but sometimes we,

732

both of us couldn't really talk about

tricky things, so it didn't have that.

733

Yeah, capability now it's got that

capability to go right to the treaty stuff

734

because we know we can talk through it.

735

So it was, it was a hard time,

but it was, that's a really good

736

Matt Edmundson: point because you.

737

The resilience, I think in marriage

comes from dealing with the

738

complicated situations well, um, well

maybe the wrong word, but actually

739

determining to get through them Yeah.

740

Uh, in a, in a good way.

741

And working through those builds.

742

Resilience in your marriage.

743

So communicating about the tricky

stuff in a way that is, I mean,

744

you're talking about conflict,

aren't you, in a couple weeks.

745

Yeah.

746

Did you know this?

747

I did know that.

748

Yeah.

749

Yes.

750

So in a couple weeks we're gonna get into

conflict and marriage and had, I would

751

if that oven story might come up again.

752

Uh, so yeah, we've got

that in a couple weeks.

753

Um, basically Dan's gonna tell

you how to argue Well, uh,

754

is, is what's gonna happen.

755

And to win No.

756

And to win.

757

Yeah.

758

Not if you're the husband.

759

Uh, that's not the goal.

760

But, um, but no, and I, I think

that like, it's a really good point.

761

Resilience is a really important

thing, and so if you are facing stuff

762

which is difficult or hard, it's not

pleasant, but God will redeem that and

763

can redeem that so that you come out of

it together as a couple much stronger.

764

Right.

765

I'm thinking of Stephen who was on

the What's the Story podcast, and if

766

you've not listened to What's the story?

767

It's a podcast we've got on

the Crowd Church website where

768

we get people in just to.

769

We just talked to 'em about

what their story is, you know,

770

about their Christian journey.

771

Uh, and Steven came on and he talked

about how when his wife had an affair,

772

um, they were young Christian couple

and his wife had an affair, and he talks

773

about God's redemption through that.

774

Um, and it's a remarkable

story and one I would strongly

775

encourage you to go and listen to.

776

Um.

777

I, I just remember doing that interview

with him and thinking, man alive, the

778

grace of God is so strong because they

had one of the worst situations you

779

face in marriage without any doubt.

780

And.

781

Yeah, they work through it.

782

That resilience is now built a much

stronger marriage and he, he tells

783

you all about it in the story.

784

So definitely check it out.

785

Sharon Edmundson: We've also got,

um, I'm trying to remember his name.

786

He's done talks for us, um, who's

also been on, what's the story?

787

Who?

788

Mark Buchanan.

789

Yeah, Mark Buchanan.

790

And he talks about how his

marriage actually fell apart

791

completely and didn't recover.

792

So, um, I think there's lots

of different stories that.

793

Thought.

794

Well, just, I kind of encourage people

whatever situation you're going through

795

right now in terms of marriage, um, yeah.

796

There, there's something on

there in what's the story?

797

Yeah.

798

Um, absolutely.

799

Just going back to my original

question, we've gone all that

800

like this, which is great.

801

Um, which was to do

with our own experience.

802

I've said this before on Crowd, but

um, when I first came to Liverpool,

803

um, I think I was 24 at the time.

804

Um, I remember coming

into church and seeing.

805

A couple who were roughly the same age

as me, but they'd been married for a year

806

and they looked like they still liked

each other, and I was absolutely shocked.

807

And, um, I hadn't realized until

that point that my expectation of

808

marriage was that you found someone,

you fell in love, you got married,

809

and then you gradually hated.

810

Each other more and more each year.

811

Like if you had actually asked me what

I'd thought about marriage, I would've

812

said something completely different.

813

But, uh, I would've said, you know,

the biblically correct kind of stuff,

814

but actually what was in my heart, what

had crept in without me even knowing

815

it was something completely different.

816

And, uh, I think, yeah, that was

just a, that particular year God

817

just highlighted so much to me

of what was actually in my heart.

818

And, um.

819

Yeah, it's just quite an

interesting, well, I'm glad, I'm

820

Matt Edmundson: glad that changed Me too.

821

Yeah.

822

Because, you know, it was

important that it changed.

823

Uh, yeah.

824

I think, and actually, let me, uh,

just one other thing I want, I wanna

825

say actually, if you are a younger

person watching this, um, and you

826

are not yet married, um, and you are

entering into a, that sort of phase of

827

life where you're gonna start dating,

um, or maybe you are already dating.

828

We have had a spate recently, um, of

couples getting divorced, separating

829

who probably shouldn't have got

married in the first place right now.

830

There's all kinds of things

that we can talk about here,

831

but just being totally real.

832

What happened at the start of

their relationship was that.

833

Neither of them had the courage to break

it off because at the time there was very

834

much this belief that if you're dating

more than six months as a Christian,

835

you probably ought to get married.

836

And I don't think that's a

particularly helpful way to think.

837

Now, when we decided to get

married, we decided to get married

838

Within, inside, what, five months?

839

Yeah, it was five months.

840

So I, I did the exact opposite of

what I've just said in many ways.

841

And that's okay.

842

I mean, we knew that.

843

We knew.

844

I think what I'm saying to you

is, um, marriage is a covenant.

845

It is life long, and I think in Christian

circles, there can be a pressure to get

846

married young if you date for a while.

847

I want you to be aware of that pressure.

848

'cause sometimes the hardest thing

you can do is to break off that

849

relationship if it's not right before

God and you go forward and you get

850

married and at that point it's too late.

851

Um, because I don't think you can,

I don't think you can go to your

852

spouse and go, ah, we should never

got married in the first place.

853

I'm off.

854

I don't think that washes with God.

855

I think once you're in, you're in,

you, you make that marriage work.

856

And we've had plenty of stories like that.

857

Um.

858

But I think early on in your, in your

dating, I was gonna say dating career,

859

but actually it's, it's the wrong

phrase, uh, in your, in your dating

860

life, I think just be really clear about

what God is saying to you and what is

861

pressure and from an outside culture, um.

862

Because like I say, sometimes

the most courageous thing you

863

can do is end the relationship.

864

Uh, and your 40-year-old

self will thank you for that.

865

Um, but like I say, once you're

in, you are in now there are some

866

instances for divorce and separation,

which is worth highlighting.

867

The scripture talks about, we've

mentioned this before on Crowd,

868

um, there's abuse, there's a

adultery and there's abandonment.

869

The three A's.

870

Abuse is an obvious one.

871

And when I say abuse,

I mean genuine abuse.

872

Not like, oh, you didn't cook me my

favorite fish and chips tonight, I'm off.

873

Um, abandonment, you know, is

obviously clear and adultery is clear.

874

That doesn't mean that they instantly

create divorce, but you could argue

875

that there is scriptural grounds for

divorce in that, that like God has

876

said, Hmm, okay, we can talk about this.

877

Um.

878

So I think that's worth understanding

because I appreciate that divorce

879

does happen in church and it does

happen for a number of reasons.

880

Um, and like Sharon said, we don't want

to condemn anybody here because God can

881

redeem a whole great deal of things.

882

Um, so yeah, whether you are in marriage

and it's difficult, God can redeem that.

883

Whether you're in a marriage

and it's great, God can still

884

do some cool stuff with that.

885

Go and build God's kingdom together.

886

If you're divorced, God can

redeem that if you're single.

887

Great.

888

God can be in that.

889

Uh, we're gonna talk about

singleness, I think in the new year.

890

Uh, from memory, I can't

remember it's coming up.

891

I can't remember the exact schedule.

892

Um, but whatever state you find yourself

in whatever situation, I think God, uh,

893

can be with you and God can redeem it.

894

And, sorry.

895

Oh,

896

Dan Orange: it's alright.

897

The, um, and we talked earlier about

having, you know, how you come.

898

Where you are in your life with

God and, and in that relationship.

899

And, um, I always remember friends

of my parents in Birmingham and

900

they had, um, an arranged marriage.

901

So Indian had an arranged marriage

and they became Christians and

902

they'd, there'd been no dating,

there'd be nothing like that.

903

They just, they were there because they.

904

You know, they were told to be, and

they had kids and, um, they both

905

became Christians and the husband

really prayed and said, God, I need

906

to find love for my wife, because

that's not why I was together.

907

And he restored, he restored

that and well, or created it.

908

And it's just a great story that, uh, I

love to, I love to tell because I think

909

it's brilliant how God sees marriage

and then, and then helps you, you know.

910

Work it.

911

Work it out.

912

Yeah.

913

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

914

I think in whatever situation

it there is that just being

915

honest before God isn't there and

saying, God, this is where I'm at.

916

I need your help.

917

What, how, you know, what do I do?

918

Um, yeah.

919

Um, just thinking about Matt's advice

to people who are maybe dating or ever,

920

I've got, got my own one as well to add.

921

Just I think just because we have seen,

like over the years, different marriages

922

fall apart and obviously we don't know

the ins and outs of all of it, but there

923

are little trends that we kind of see.

924

One of them, Matt's already mentioned,

I think another is where people.

925

Are not communicating like,

um, what, what the issues are.

926

So maybe they're upset by their spouse

or they're upset about something,

927

but they, they keep it to themselves

and they don't talk about it.

928

Yeah.

929

They don't, um, resolve the issue and

then the issue just gets bigger and bigger

930

and they hold onto the unforgiveness

and then everything just gets seen.

931

In that light, and then it just

becomes this massive thing.

932

So I think.

933

Uh, I think I've seen God, uh, God

can overcome in us any issue if we are

934

actually willing to put them out on

the table to say, God, this is the way

935

it is, to be honest, to repent of our

own stuff, to forgive the other person.

936

But if we're not actually willing

to do that, if you're with someone

937

who's not willing to talk about that

stuff, it's probably not gonna work.

938

You need someone who's, um,

yeah, where both of you.

939

You, you're gonna talk

about stuff as it comes up.

940

Yeah.

941

And not hang onto to it.

942

Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.

943

Sharon Edmundson: Okay.

944

I've got another question.

945

Okay.

946

I've got a whole list here.

947

I'm just, uh, working through,

just checking on the time.

948

Yeah.

949

We're okay.

950

So, um, what things about Christian

faith in particular would you

951

say help a marriage thrive?

952

Matt Edmundson: Oh,

that's a good question.

953

Who would like to say that one?

954

Forgiveness would be the obvious one.

955

Yeah.

956

Um, not that I ever need to give you of

anything, sweetheart, but I feel like

957

it's gonna be the other way around a lot.

958

Like, you know, the, so I

think practicing forgiveness

959

is a, is a big thing, isn't it?

960

You can't hold onto stuff.

961

You've gotta, you have to, as

we, we joke about this, don't we,

962

in that, um, quite early on in

our marriage, we read the book.

963

Uh, men are from Mars,

women are from Venus.

964

Sharon Edmundson: I think we read a page.

965

It's not particularly a

Christian book, it's not part,

966

but it has some useful stuff.

967

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

968

It does have some useful

stuff, doesn't it?

969

And it's, the concept of the

book was basically men and

970

women speak different languages.

971

Um, and so, uh, men speak Martian.

972

Women speak Uchin, I guess, I

dunno what you speak in, in Venus.

973

Um, and so you speak different languages

and so you end up doing this a lot.

974

And it, the, the most useful page

in that entire book was a, a table

975

which says, this is what a woman says.

976

This is what a woman means,

and this is what a man hears.

977

And all of them were different.

978

Right?

979

And it was the same the other way around.

980

This is what a man says.

981

This is what a man means.

982

This is what the woman hears, right?

983

They were all different.

984

And so.

985

Quite early on in our marriage, you,

we would often do this thing where you

986

would say something and I would just go

quiet and Sharon would just look at me

987

and go, are you translating right now?

988

Because I'm trying to take what I, what

I heard and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to

989

go through this thinking which goes,

ah, this is actually what she meant.

990

And it's different to what I heard.

991

And I think when you walk in that

attitude of forgiveness, when you walk

992

in that attitude of this person is my

life partner and I've gotten, you know,

993

I think nothing but the best of them.

994

And they've got my highest best at heart.

995

They might not communicate

it in that instance.

996

So therefore what I've heard might not

be what was intentionally communicated.

997

Uh, and I think that really helped us.

998

Sharon Edmundson: It really, really did.

999

Yeah.

00:51:29,145 --> 00:51:31,635

Um, we did a lot of translating,

I think in the early days.

00:51:31,905 --> 00:51:35,775

I remember, um, after having

several of these incidences where.

00:51:35,835 --> 00:51:38,445

I would say something and Matt would

like, it was just like the wall had

00:51:38,445 --> 00:51:43,485

gone up and I'd be like, oh, I've

obviously not said, I've not communicated

00:51:43,485 --> 00:51:46,275

well, what I mean, because that

wasn't the reaction I was expecting.

00:51:46,635 --> 00:51:51,135

I remember just spending time before

I then said like in future occasions

00:51:51,735 --> 00:51:53,385

if I was upset about something.

00:51:53,445 --> 00:51:57,195

I would just take myself off for a while

and go, okay, this is how I'm feeling.

00:51:57,225 --> 00:52:00,615

How can I communicate this in a way

that he's actually gonna understand it?

00:52:00,975 --> 00:52:03,585

And it did take quite a

long of practice, didn't it?

00:52:03,585 --> 00:52:09,345

Just to, um, try and communicate in a way

that we would understand and wouldn't just

00:52:09,345 --> 00:52:10,815

get each other's backs up all the time.

00:52:11,355 --> 00:52:11,625

Dan Orange: Yeah.

00:52:11,895 --> 00:52:12,585

Being there too.

00:52:13,035 --> 00:52:14,955

And also the tone of

how you say something.

00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,670

Still learning that one,

I'm getting a bit better.

00:52:18,670 --> 00:52:19,660

Sharon Edmundson: And I

think that's relevant.

00:52:19,660 --> 00:52:20,710

Not just to marriage, is it?

00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:20,770

Yeah.

00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:24,250

But just to any relationship

because all of us, we've, we

00:52:24,250 --> 00:52:26,049

all come from different places.

00:52:26,049 --> 00:52:28,359

We all think slightly differently.

00:52:28,359 --> 00:52:30,100

So it's like communicate it.

00:52:30,130 --> 00:52:33,310

I mean, the, the scope for

miscommunication is quite huge.

00:52:33,609 --> 00:52:33,670

Yeah.

00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:34,600

So we need to work on it.

00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,299

Dan Orange: And I think sometimes.

00:52:37,890 --> 00:52:38,850

Marriage can be looked at.

00:52:38,850 --> 00:52:42,180

Like, it's just, it's just a

challenge because there's two

00:52:42,180 --> 00:52:45,870

different types of people, two

types of people, different people.

00:52:46,410 --> 00:52:52,860

And on some levels it is, but it's also

amazing because I can do things that Lisa

00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:55,650

can't and Lisa can do things that I can't.

00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,500

And together we can do things

that we couldn't do on our own.

00:52:58,860 --> 00:53:02,250

And it, and it's great that

that's, that's what a marriage is.

00:53:02,250 --> 00:53:03,150

It's something that.

00:53:03,915 --> 00:53:07,725

We, we've both got different,

um, skills and, and traits.

00:53:07,785 --> 00:53:08,085

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:53:08,265 --> 00:53:09,734

Dan Orange: That too often.

00:53:09,734 --> 00:53:10,305

It is, isn't it?

00:53:10,305 --> 00:53:11,294

Like, oh, it's two people.

00:53:11,984 --> 00:53:12,254

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:53:12,810 --> 00:53:15,435

Dan Orange: Don't, don't get on together

or they're trying to do things different.

00:53:15,435 --> 00:53:16,365

They're trying to pull

00:53:16,365 --> 00:53:16,725

Matt Edmundson: away.

00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:17,234

Yeah.

00:53:17,234 --> 00:53:17,384

If

00:53:17,384 --> 00:53:19,575

Dan Orange: you pull to

together, it's, it's great.

00:53:19,634 --> 00:53:19,935

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:53:19,935 --> 00:53:21,134

Like, I, I love that.

00:53:21,134 --> 00:53:21,975

It's not a challenge.

00:53:21,975 --> 00:53:24,345

You have to, to over, I mean,

there are challenging times.

00:53:24,375 --> 00:53:24,615

Yeah.

00:53:25,095 --> 00:53:25,964

But it's not like.

00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:27,600

It's not.

00:53:28,270 --> 00:53:28,680

It's not.

00:53:28,785 --> 00:53:31,904

When Paul said, I've got a thorn in my

flesh, he wasn't referring to his wife.

00:53:32,265 --> 00:53:32,625

Right?

00:53:32,835 --> 00:53:34,755

It's just, it's not that kind of thing.

00:53:34,755 --> 00:53:38,085

And I think when you look back at

the dawn of time, God said, it's

00:53:38,085 --> 00:53:42,975

not good for man to be alone, as

in everything was good, right?

00:53:43,275 --> 00:53:44,265

This was paradise.

00:53:44,265 --> 00:53:46,455

And God went, I can take this up a notch.

00:53:46,845 --> 00:53:48,045

I'm gonna give my wife.

00:53:48,105 --> 00:53:51,615

And I think actually that is

the understanding that you have

00:53:51,615 --> 00:53:53,440

that life can be good here.

00:53:54,134 --> 00:53:56,505

And if God calls you to

singleness, that's perfect.

00:53:56,505 --> 00:53:57,105

That's brilliant.

00:53:57,525 --> 00:54:03,555

But if he calls you into marriage,

that's gonna make you much, it's gonna

00:54:03,555 --> 00:54:05,415

take you from good to very good, right?

00:54:05,415 --> 00:54:09,195

It's, it's that kind of, it's

that kind of thing, isn't it?

00:54:09,195 --> 00:54:12,255

Where especially men, it's

not good that men are alone.

00:54:12,825 --> 00:54:15,825

Men spending time on their

own for long periods of time.

00:54:17,145 --> 00:54:18,075

I don't care what anyone says.

00:54:18,075 --> 00:54:19,365

98% of the time, it's not good.

00:54:20,205 --> 00:54:21,165

Genuinely speaking.

00:54:21,435 --> 00:54:24,285

And if you are, if you are doing that, if

you are spending all your time on computer

00:54:24,285 --> 00:54:29,205

games by yourself, yeah, I think you need

to get out to community because there's

00:54:29,205 --> 00:54:32,295

gonna, you're gonna be watching porn, not

all of you, but Do you know what I mean?

00:54:32,295 --> 00:54:34,935

There's all kinds of stuff going on

there and it's just not good to be

00:54:34,935 --> 00:54:36,765

alone getting community get out there.

00:54:37,215 --> 00:54:39,195

Um, if you're, even if you're

not dating, even if you're not

00:54:39,195 --> 00:54:40,695

married, just go and be with people.

00:54:40,725 --> 00:54:41,985

'cause it's not good for men to be alone.

00:54:42,045 --> 00:54:42,105

Mm.

00:54:43,395 --> 00:54:47,625

Dan Orange: And when, sorry, just

just on that topic, within we finish

00:54:48,135 --> 00:54:51,675

one of the great things about that,

um, marriage and being different,

00:54:52,095 --> 00:54:56,085

and then marriage often has kids and

you've got to have that different role.

00:54:56,565 --> 00:54:57,165

Is that it?

00:54:57,285 --> 00:54:59,025

It spills over Yeah.

00:54:59,085 --> 00:55:00,315

Into life, doesn't it?

00:55:00,495 --> 00:55:04,770

It, it has equipped me better to

deal with people I work with to,

00:55:04,815 --> 00:55:07,545

to deal with customers, you know,

'cause they're different to me.

00:55:07,875 --> 00:55:08,985

They don't understand the.

00:55:10,650 --> 00:55:11,970

You know what I, what I'm saying?

00:55:11,970 --> 00:55:15,509

I have to convey it, and I've learned

that through, through, through

00:55:15,509 --> 00:55:16,950

marriage and through those situations.

00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:19,379

It's not something that

just, it's just standalone.

00:55:19,470 --> 00:55:19,740

Yeah.

00:55:19,845 --> 00:55:19,904

Yeah,

00:55:20,805 --> 00:55:23,745

Sharon Edmundson: I was just going back

to the question about how Christian faith

00:55:23,745 --> 00:55:28,484

can help build good marriages, and I

think Covenant is a massive one for me.

00:55:28,575 --> 00:55:32,084

Um, probably don't have, I mean,

Matt did talk about it, but don't

00:55:32,084 --> 00:55:34,575

have masses of time To properly

get into that, there's a great

00:55:34,575 --> 00:55:36,944

Matt Edmundson: talk on the Crowd

Church archive about Covenant.

00:55:37,484 --> 00:55:38,115

Great Talk.

00:55:38,205 --> 00:55:39,049

One of the best you'll ever.

00:55:39,569 --> 00:55:41,250

Sharon Edmundson: Matt

did that a few weeks ago.

00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:45,150

Um, but there's this whole thing

for me, um, I'm trying to find,

00:55:45,150 --> 00:55:46,170

I've got all these notes written.

00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:50,915

I'm just trying to find the bit

now, um, where Paul in Ephesians.

00:55:51,675 --> 00:55:54,105

5 31 to 32, I think it is.

00:55:54,105 --> 00:55:57,705

Quotes back to Genesis, um, talking

about marriage, but, and then

00:55:57,705 --> 00:56:00,675

says this is referring to the

mystery of Christ and the church.

00:56:01,065 --> 00:56:05,775

And, um, the Bible opens with the marriage

of Adam and Eve and it finishes with

00:56:05,775 --> 00:56:09,495

the marriage, which is talking about,

um, the marriage of, between Jesus

00:56:09,495 --> 00:56:14,835

and his bride, the church and it, it's

got loads of our marriage all in it.

00:56:15,255 --> 00:56:17,055

And part of the reason for marriage is.

00:56:17,395 --> 00:56:22,915

As a reflection of this relationship

between Jesus and his church of that

00:56:22,915 --> 00:56:29,995

whole, um, like mutually serving each

other, that commitment for life, that

00:56:29,995 --> 00:56:31,915

laying down your life for each other.

00:56:31,915 --> 00:56:37,945

And I think that, uh, that whole image

of, um, marriage being an, an, an image

00:56:37,945 --> 00:56:41,755

of something higher, um, I think that.

00:56:42,495 --> 00:56:43,935

That just helps me as well.

00:56:43,935 --> 00:56:46,785

It's not just like this little

institution down on earth, but it is

00:56:46,904 --> 00:56:49,754

pointing to a deeper spiritual truth.

00:56:49,754 --> 00:56:49,814

Yeah.

00:56:50,289 --> 00:56:53,234

And, and a calling and, yeah.

00:56:53,234 --> 00:56:54,464

I can't get all my words out.

00:56:55,874 --> 00:56:56,535

It's big.

00:56:56,535 --> 00:56:59,595

It's, and I think that having

that something beyond just

00:56:59,595 --> 00:57:01,455

what you are and the help.

00:57:02,009 --> 00:57:03,359

God, the Holy Spirit.

00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,149

Um, that just makes a massive difference.

00:57:07,049 --> 00:57:09,270

I'm aware we are really

running out of time now.

00:57:09,330 --> 00:57:13,589

Um, have either if you got anything

just quickly to add before we finish.

00:57:13,799 --> 00:57:16,890

Dan Orange: I think if you, if you are

in a marriage and you are thinking,

00:57:19,290 --> 00:57:21,060

ca, can I, can I do this?

00:57:21,064 --> 00:57:22,194

What is my responsibility?

00:57:22,334 --> 00:57:23,595

Go and listen to that talk of Matts.

00:57:24,194 --> 00:57:30,254

Because just that, that, um, legal

and covenant legal, we can think we

00:57:30,254 --> 00:57:31,515

just need a lawyer to get out of it.

00:57:31,664 --> 00:57:37,694

Or what can I, what caveat or what

clause can I, can I use Covenant is is

00:57:37,694 --> 00:57:39,225

very different and it gives you that.

00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:41,280

Let's work at this.

00:57:41,490 --> 00:57:41,880

Yeah.

00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:43,680

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,580

And, uh, I mean, we could talk about this

for hours and in fact we're gonna talk

00:57:47,580 --> 00:57:49,230

about it next week and the week after.

00:57:49,290 --> 00:57:52,530

Um, so let me give a

quick plug for next week.

00:57:52,530 --> 00:57:55,980

We are talking about perhaps

some of the most controversial

00:57:55,980 --> 00:57:57,600

aspects of marriage next week.

00:57:58,140 --> 00:57:58,740

Uh, roles.

00:57:59,625 --> 00:58:02,924

Um, so we're getting into

headship and submission.

00:58:03,495 --> 00:58:05,444

What the, what is that all about?

00:58:05,444 --> 00:58:07,545

Does the Bible really talk about that?

00:58:07,965 --> 00:58:11,595

Um, so we are gonna get into that next

week, which I'm really looking forward to.

00:58:12,075 --> 00:58:13,634

Uh, 'cause I love the

controversial topics.

00:58:13,634 --> 00:58:15,285

I'm not gonna lie, this,

why isn't that good fun?

00:58:15,674 --> 00:58:18,404

Uh, so we're gonna get into that

next week, and then, like I say, the

00:58:18,404 --> 00:58:22,275

week after, we've got Dan talking

about conflict and resolution.

00:58:22,275 --> 00:58:25,785

So we've got the little mini

marriage course, I suppose, uh,

00:58:25,815 --> 00:58:27,615

in the whole relationship series.

00:58:27,975 --> 00:58:28,455

Um.

00:58:28,525 --> 00:58:30,685

So, yeah, that's my plug over.

00:58:31,645 --> 00:58:32,095

Sharon Edmundson: Lovely.

00:58:32,095 --> 00:58:34,975

Well, I think we will finish

it there for tonight then.

00:58:35,065 --> 00:58:36,625

Uh, hope to see you next week.

00:58:36,685 --> 00:58:41,965

Um, oh yeah, we, if you want to connect

with us now straight after this.

00:58:41,965 --> 00:58:42,655

We are.

00:58:43,225 --> 00:58:43,975

Where are we meeting?

00:58:44,065 --> 00:58:45,175

It's coming up on the screen.

00:58:45,175 --> 00:58:48,925

Google meets, uh, you can join

us there just for a quick chat.

00:58:49,135 --> 00:58:49,885

Say hi.

00:58:50,365 --> 00:58:54,085

Um, other than that, if you could join

us next week, that would be fabulous.

00:58:54,355 --> 00:58:56,305

Uh, hope that you have an amazing week.

00:58:56,575 --> 00:58:56,995

Goodbye.