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222 - Change Fatigue
Episode 2223rd October 2022 • Meta-Cast • Bob Galen & Josh Anderson
00:00:00 00:33:10

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Yep. It's a real thing. Sadly, we often only recognize it when it's too late. That's why Bob and Josh are here! They give you tools to recognize and react both as a leader and a teammate. Do you have any tricks up your sleeve? Let's discuss!

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Transcripts

Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

You talking shit all those times at the last minute you canceled.

Bob:

Come on.

Bob:

Coma.

Bob:

Come on.

Josh Anderson:

That was a long time.

Josh Anderson:

That's ancient history.

Bob:

Talk to daddy.

Bob:

Goodbye.

Josh Anderson:

All right, here we go.

Josh Anderson:

Episode 222.

Josh Anderson:

That is right.

Josh Anderson:

222 in sane.

Josh Anderson:

I can't believe we've done that many.

Josh Anderson:

And we got lots more lined

Josh Anderson:

So.

Josh Anderson:

Change.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, this is part of what agile is all about is responding to change.

Josh Anderson:

Change can knock you out.

Josh Anderson:

Today's episode is all about change fatigue and making sure you understand

Josh Anderson:

when it's happening, know how to respond as a leader, know how to respond.

Josh Anderson:

As a team member.

Josh Anderson:

So here we go.

Josh Anderson:

We'll wave my magic wand.

Josh Anderson:

And we're off to the episode.

Josh Anderson:

Are you tired?

Bob:

Tired.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

When I came in the door this morning, Josh, my butt was dragging behind me.

Bob:

I mean, I heard this sound.

Bob:

I thought it was like a square or something.

Bob:

It was my.

Bob:

I can be a lot more than the squirrel.

Bob:

I was pretty,

Bob:

I was pretty fatigued.

Bob:

Yeah, let me tell you, why do you ask?

Bob:

Well, I, you know, I've.

Bob:

Been doing a lot of changing and all my jobs.

Bob:

And I hear about this change fatigue.

Bob:

Ooh.

Bob:

And I thought maybe we should discuss.

Bob:

Would you be interested?

Bob:

I

Bob:

would, okay.

Bob:

Let's do it then.

Bob:

I mean, if I can muster enough energy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'll try tired.

Bob:

I'm always staging.

Bob:

Yes, but wise beyond my years.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So there is this notion impact in my leadership class.

Bob:

I just did a cow class, a private cow class.

Bob:

And I talk about change curves.

Bob:

So to me, there's change fatigue and then a change cycles.

Bob:

Or methods cutter.

Bob:

I think John Kotter has a famous eight phase change.

Bob:

Like how do you, how do you guide, what are the phases

Bob:

of change in an organization?

Bob:

And then there's another model that I like better than that.

Bob:

A little bit.

Bob:

It's a little more fluid or a little bit more nimble.

Bob:

It's called the Virginia city tier change curve.

Bob:

Or the Citier change curve.

Bob:

It's a J curve.

Bob:

So what does the J curve mean?

Bob:

It's.

Bob:

Physical orientation of it.

Bob:

It looks like a J J.

Bob:

So you enter.

Bob:

So w she doesn't have timeframes or anything.

Bob:

And she was a social worker, so she used it.

Bob:

She used it in family, social work and child social work.

Bob:

Where families have a change, like a father leaves the

Bob:

family and that's a change.

Bob:

So how do you navigate So the J curve is I'll just for the Medicare.

Bob:

I'll just try to visualize it for But you enter with a change

Bob:

called a foreign element and you immediately get into like, Chaos.

Bob:

And there's a negative, you go below, like there's a status quo.

Bob:

So the minute you introduce a change in the city or change curve, you

Bob:

know, whatever your performance is, if your family was happy, you're

Bob:

going to get sad or whatever.

Bob:

If it's, if you introduce the change to an organization, a team might slow down.

Bob:

So you immediately slowed down.

Bob:

And you're in this, what they call, like what I call the danger zone, which is

Bob:

depending on the size of the change, you go deep into change and then broad,

Bob:

and you're trying to navigate it.

Bob:

So you're in this chaos or this dangerous zone and resistance is in there as well.

Bob:

What you try to find is a transformative idea.

Bob:

And that idea starts to like what's in it for Or how do I in a family sense?

Bob:

How am I going to go on without my dad?

Bob:

And the transformative ideas, maybe I play football or something like that.

Bob:

So then I start the transforming idea.

Bob:

Then you start integrating the change.

Bob:

And you can start coming out of the curve.

Bob:

You pass the status quo.

Bob:

So now you S you may, if it's a change that has, can have a positive

Bob:

result, let's use the family example.

Bob:

Your dad's having a negative effect, the football or the playing might actually

Bob:

get you better off than when her dad was around and not doing a good job.

Bob:

So you're integrating, and then you come out of the change curve

Bob:

and you establish a new status quo.

Bob:

So change is you, you go through these phases.

Bob:

One reason I bring it up is, to make people aware of you, don't

Bob:

instantaneously navigate change.

Bob:

There's a negative, there's a net net negative effect in navigating change.

Bob:

So you'd.

Bob:

Like, something's going to give and it's not going to, and it's going to be

Bob:

Until you turn it positive.

Bob:

Of the others.

Bob:

The another reason.

Bob:

So change fatigue, the way I describe Is what if you're in the danger zone?

Bob:

And you introduce another change.

Bob:

And you haven't navigated.

Bob:

Haven't you haven't actually integrated the previous one.

Bob:

So now you're what now you're going deeper and broader.

Bob:

And then if you, and if you introduce another change,

Bob:

Very often in agile.

Bob:

We're like, I see a lot of change organizationally.

Bob:

That's not talking about families.

Bob:

It's talking about organizations and.

Bob:

Transformation.

Bob:

A lot of organizations are like the change of the week club.

Bob:

And it's not just agile transformation is all changes.

Bob:

So if you change buildings, that's a change.

Bob:

If you are working from home and get, and then have to go back to the office reorgs.

Bob:

I think reorgs are notorious for change, like co like groups do reorgs

Bob:

a while you're doing agile change.

Bob:

So anything.

Bob:

Where we're folks are like rolling their eyes.

Bob:

So a physical manifestation of change fatigue to me is, you suggest

Bob:

something that's really, maybe let's say it's a really good idea.

Bob:

It's really relevant, but folks are like,

Bob:

Another, yet another thing we have to navigate.

Bob:

So Really relate to that in any Does it resonate with you?

Bob:

Does it not?

Bob:

It.

Josh Anderson:

It does.

Josh Anderson:

I am.

Josh Anderson:

On the other end of the spectrum.

Josh Anderson:

And throughout my career, I've had two.

Josh Anderson:

Number one.

Josh Anderson:

Recognize And then number two, adjust.

Josh Anderson:

So throughout most of my life, I was rewarded for being resilient

Josh Anderson:

to change and to evolving quickly.

Bob:

So you navigated the J curve quickly, the Citier curve quickly that

Bob:

maybe it's in your DNA to do that.

Bob:

Benefited

Josh Anderson:

me greatly in the directions.

Josh Anderson:

I wanted to go on my life to be able to do

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

Like with football, right.

Bob:

I was going to ask you.

Bob:

I'm sorry I was wondering if football

Josh Anderson:

was a part of it because every week is a different opponent

Josh Anderson:

and you can't do the same thing.

Josh Anderson:

You get new coaches, you get new teammates.

Josh Anderson:

You'd like stuff just changes and you have to change in the middle of the game.

Josh Anderson:

So you have to be able to respond to that.

Josh Anderson:

And if you can't.

Josh Anderson:

Then somebody will probably be playing instead of you.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Bob:

So I, you know, I didn't put that together when you were saying,

Bob:

I thought it was just arrogance.

Bob:

Or something But no, the football makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Bob:

We've talked lightly about that before,

Josh Anderson:

And that was my.

Josh Anderson:

That was my doorway into staying on the field.

Josh Anderson:

Cause I played in front of two guys that got drafted because they were

Josh Anderson:

physically more skilled and talented and larger and faster and all of the things.

Josh Anderson:

But what I brought to the table was I gave the coaches the ultimate flexibility.

Josh Anderson:

To do whatever they wanted with my position in a role.

Josh Anderson:

And they know it would get done.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So that's what kept me on the field was I became a Swiss army knife where I

Josh Anderson:

could do whatever was needed, wherever, whenever, and we can change on a dime.

Josh Anderson:

Right.

Josh Anderson:

After a play or the next

Bob:

series or whatever it was, they, you still go through those steps.

Bob:

You may not even be conscious of them.

Bob:

But you, you might go through them very quickly.

Bob:

No matter.

Bob:

On the football field in a matter of minutes or something.

Bob:

But you don't have a choice.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Especially me, It's like, well, either I do this

Josh Anderson:

or I want to be on the bench.

Josh Anderson:

I didn't want to be on the bench.

Josh Anderson:

So throughout my career, I struggled with.

Josh Anderson:

Not even knowing chain fatigue was a thing.

Bob:

Or your professional career professional.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So as I became a leader, And I felt like I was helping the organization evolve

Josh Anderson:

at a fast pace to get to where we needed to be, to become who we aspire to be.

Josh Anderson:

I was crushing people.

Josh Anderson:

It just was too hard on them because they were.

Josh Anderson:

Less trained in change or something.

Bob:

Well, it's a blind spot for exactly, right?

Josh Anderson:

I didn't know.

Josh Anderson:

And I really drove some people into the ground, especially at the dude.

Josh Anderson:

And I had to recognize

Bob:

that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There was this sort of disconnect between the level of change that you

Bob:

could navigate or inspire and what the,

Bob:

All right, I got,

Josh Anderson:

I, I gave you these tissues because I planned.

Josh Anderson:

Free to cry based on the quality of the.

Josh Anderson:

The value I was adding to them.

Bob:

The discussion.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I keep those tears inside.

Bob:

And their.

Bob:

And their tears.

Bob:

They're tears of joy.

Bob:

I

Josh Anderson:

just forgot to take my allergy medicine

Bob:

You have allergy medicine?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The dog.

Bob:

No just, just in general.

Bob:

Outside.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

That's fine.

Bob:

And I'm not trying to dig into your personal life.

Bob:

Um, I was like,

Bob:

I hope you're not allergic to the dog.

Bob:

I am

Josh Anderson:

allergic to you.

Bob:

I feel the same way.

Bob:

So, no that's that?

Bob:

I never realized that about you, that you, I know you are pushing.

Bob:

But I never put two and two together that you might be.

Bob:

Sort of, I didn't know

Josh Anderson:

either.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, it was just okay, cool.

Josh Anderson:

We did And I was looking for the next change, like, okay.

Josh Anderson:

We evolved here.

Josh Anderson:

What's the next step we need to make slash take.

Josh Anderson:

And while that drove us to evolve quickly, it also had some collateral damage that I

Josh Anderson:

wasn't aware of until I started to see it, feel it and hear it from folks on my team.

Josh Anderson:

And then I.

Josh Anderson:

Then I had to learn.

Josh Anderson:

Okay, you've got to back off.

Josh Anderson:

You have to understand.

Josh Anderson:

Like the temperature of the team, things like that, that

Josh Anderson:

I wasn't paying attention to.

Josh Anderson:

It was just, we are going down this road as fast as we can.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody hop on board.

Josh Anderson:

And if you can't keep up.

Bob:

So one of the things with the curve in the leadership classes, I, I talked to

Bob:

leaders or I'm trying to make the point that everyone has their own change curve

Bob:

speed and their tolerance for change.

Bob:

So when you're coaching people individually in one-on-ones figure

Bob:

out what their is, it there's our meet them in the J curve.

Bob:

And then help them find their transformative ideas themselves.

Bob:

So that's what, so instead of pushing them, Pushing them doesn't.

Bob:

It just does harm.

Bob:

Now what you can, if you want to accelerate, then help them navigate the J

Bob:

curve, help them find the transformative idea, help them integrate it so that

Bob:

they start seeing what's in it for them.

Bob:

And then they'll accelerate.

Bob:

They'll get optimistic.

Bob:

So that's one thing I think that the model or the metaphor helps

Bob:

with leaders is to look at that.

Bob:

Help people navigate individually through the change because we

Bob:

all have different your fast.

Bob:

FA I'm trying to think of muscles are faster.

Bob:

You're a fast Twitch in that aspect.

Bob:

Aspect of my life.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then slow Twitch people.

Bob:

The other thing is packaging change.

Bob:

So another aspect is if you're going to navigate it.

Bob:

Then do you want to, Do you want to take small changes, large changes,

Bob:

or an aggregate like packaging of the amount of change is important.

Bob:

I think or be thoughtful about what you're like, how many changes are put together.

Bob:

And then the other thing is getting people to the status quo.

Bob:

Trying to be really reluctant to introduce a new change until, and

Bob:

it's not just achieving the new status quo, let people rebel on it

Bob:

just for the, for a period of time.

Bob:

Let them have the breath.

Bob:

Let them see the result of the change.

Bob:

Get some positive energy.

Bob:

And let them rebel and rest for a week before you drop another J curve on them.

Bob:

So those are two additional sort of thinking ideas.

Bob:

So the coaching, the packaging be strategic, and that

Bob:

doesn't mean small change.

Bob:

That could be, you know what, instead of dripping small changes, Which

Bob:

might extend the dangerous zone.

Bob:

Maybe I drop a, a moderate change.

Bob:

And then I have some patients to navigate that

Josh Anderson:

the hard Four.

Josh Anderson:

Leaders listening.

Josh Anderson:

Is that there's no equation.

Josh Anderson:

We can give you to say.

Josh Anderson:

This is how you regulate change.

Bob:

That's the challenge I have.

Bob:

I see people, but when I'm live a little bit with virtual people are blinking.

Bob:

It's is this important?

Bob:

Is this just an old man ranting and how, and what the hell

Bob:

are you telling me to do?

Bob:

And there is a that's the problem.

Bob:

There is no algorithm that you can run people through.

Bob:

You can't run individuals through it.

Bob:

You can't run an organization through it.

Bob:

It's more be cognizant of it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So for me, when I discovered this.

Josh Anderson:

I realized, I think the term they used was really good was it was a blind spot.

Josh Anderson:

There was a blind spot.

Josh Anderson:

I had no idea.

Josh Anderson:

So I just had to start paying attention.

Josh Anderson:

And I would ask a lot of questions of leaders across the organization

Josh Anderson:

of, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

Josh Anderson:

What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

How would your team react?

Josh Anderson:

Is it too soon?

Josh Anderson:

To lay there, just whatever.

Josh Anderson:

So gathering as much data as possible.

Josh Anderson:

So I felt like I can make.

Josh Anderson:

A better choice than I have, or I would just like blindly charge.

Josh Anderson:

So again, we can't give you a plus B equals C and this is how much you

Josh Anderson:

change and when you change and how you do it, like that just doesn't exist.

Josh Anderson:

As we've covered in so many spots here.

Josh Anderson:

You're going to have to just do the hard, messy work to figure it out and try

Josh Anderson:

And see what works and what doesn't.

Bob:

I think also back off, right?

Bob:

There could be some detection.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

What does change fatigue if you're overdoing Maybe you could

Bob:

characterize that a little bit.

Bob:

What did you see?

Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

Burned out people.

Bob:

What were the things that you saw?

Bob:

It got

Josh Anderson:

vocalized to me through.

Josh Anderson:

Some of the team members that I was most friendly Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So they would say Josh.

Josh Anderson:

Can we not do this?

Josh Anderson:

I'm like, why?

Josh Anderson:

Like we clearly need to do it.

Josh Anderson:

Lets it go.

Josh Anderson:

We just changed this Kenya, not do and I'm like why?

Josh Anderson:

Like what's, what's You know, so like my instant reaction is

Josh Anderson:

like, what's wrong with you?

Josh Anderson:

Why can't you handle this?

Josh Anderson:

And that after talking to you're just wearing the crap out of us.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And so they talk through what, like the previous six months were, and it

Josh Anderson:

was like a giant slap in the face.

Josh Anderson:

It was like, oh boy, you have really been failing this team.

Bob:

And the problem there is that they really care.

Bob:

You were, you are a good leader, right?

Bob:

And people work with you.

Bob:

They're loved you.

Bob:

So they would go, which is kind of a problem because, by the time you

Bob:

heard from anyone, yeah, it was like, they were already burned out.

Bob:

And fizzle, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But that was an eye-opener.

Josh Anderson:

So again, This is where.

Josh Anderson:

My ability to change quickly.

Josh Anderson:

Paid

Bob:

off.

Bob:

So you change.

Bob:

Just slow down.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I.

Josh Anderson:

Instantly I changed.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that.

Josh Anderson:

And to me, like just a life thing.

Josh Anderson:

There was a period at Teradata after you left.

Josh Anderson:

And I think I've told this story before where I was just like, the work was

Josh Anderson:

consuming me and I came home from work one day and my wife said to me like, Hey.

Josh Anderson:

The kids say you aren't the same dad anymore.

Josh Anderson:

Like you're going to have to figure something out at work.

Josh Anderson:

Cause this isn't just working and.

Josh Anderson:

I changed instantly.

Josh Anderson:

Cause as soon as I understood how it was affecting my family.

Josh Anderson:

I felt irresponsible.

Josh Anderson:

If I let it go on another second.

Josh Anderson:

So again, that's another one of those things where.

Josh Anderson:

My ability to do that.

Josh Anderson:

Paid off.

Josh Anderson:

And it.

Josh Anderson:

Enabled air quote success.

Josh Anderson:

In that space.

Josh Anderson:

But.

Josh Anderson:

Again, I don't think I'm normal.

Josh Anderson:

In that.

Bob:

Yeah, not in that.

Bob:

I think.

Bob:

The other thing from a leadership that I was thinking about.

Bob:

Most leaders I think are driven.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And so most leaders are, they may be wired, not like you are,

Bob:

like you navigate the change.

Bob:

But I think a lot of leaders push change.

Bob:

Not just because of their own, like your internal compass was driving that,

Bob:

but you've worked in organizations where changes just coming at you.

Bob:

Hot and heavy from outside market changes leader.

Bob:

Reorgs leadership changes, et cetera.

Bob:

And as leaders, you just have to push that downstream.

Bob:

So I think this is a problem.

Bob:

I think leaders it's inherent in leadership in today's organizations that

Bob:

were probably overly pushing change.

Bob:

No, some of them are more tolerant of it or more changed, friendly than others.

Bob:

But being aware of the fatigue.

Bob:

I think it's important.

Bob:

It's an important thing to come up with some indicator or set of

Bob:

indicators for your organization of, I would say eye rolls or resistance.

Bob:

I would measure when you're getting resistance.

Bob:

I would guess.

Bob:

There's There's normalized resistance.

Bob:

There's cultural resistance that whatever's normal for the organization,

Bob:

but when it exceeds whatever normal is.

Bob:

Then you may be pushing too hard would be another indicator,

Josh Anderson:

right?

Josh Anderson:

And as a leader, you also have a responsibility to.

Josh Anderson:

Resist upwards.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, that change is coming down and say no, exactly.

Josh Anderson:

Let's wait for six weeks.

Josh Anderson:

Or whatever the appropriate time is, and not allow that that's your duty as

Josh Anderson:

a leader to your crew that might already be fatigued, that you need to protect

Josh Anderson:

them and let them get through that curve.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So let's put the shoe on the other foot.

Josh Anderson:

You're not a leader and you're in an environment where there's a lot of change

Josh Anderson:

and you're beginning to feel fatigued.

Josh Anderson:

How could you, should you

Bob:

respond?

Bob:

I think you gave an example, probably one Powerful examples.

Bob:

I don't think you just take it.

Bob:

And a lot.

Bob:

And I think actually that's the default mode for most teams and individuals.

Bob:

It's like, it's inevitable.

Bob:

So I just have to tolerate it or something.

Bob:

And try to change myself.

Bob:

I would communicate to your leaders or whoever's driving the change.

Bob:

Like you were lucky, but you had, now you had a relationship.

Bob:

I would say, even if you don't have a relationship somehow,

Bob:

As a team or you, or get more members to communicate up because what's happening

Bob:

is you're not navigating to net net.

Bob:

You are net, net negative beyond the human being feelings.

Bob:

You, whatever in organizational change, you probably have slowed down.

Bob:

You probably lost something.

Bob:

And you haven't navigated to improvement.

Bob:

So from a pure business point of view, you have to get to that new status quo.

Bob:

And there's only one way to get there, which is internalized the change.

Bob:

As a group.

Bob:

So try to accelerate that.

Bob:

So it's in your best interest.

Bob:

To try to slow.

Bob:

Slow folks It's also in the

Josh Anderson:

companies.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, that's interest.

Josh Anderson:

And I think that's a thing you can bring to that discussion is.

Josh Anderson:

Listen.

Josh Anderson:

This will make it difficult.

Josh Anderson:

For us to produce at the pace that we have been, and we know how important it

Josh Anderson:

is for us to do We're introducing a risk.

Josh Anderson:

If we create this change and have that discussion habit from the.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

From the understanding of the business and where it's trying to go and show how.

Josh Anderson:

Not doing this right now is a good thing.

Josh Anderson:

It's not that we don't want to do it.

Josh Anderson:

Not that we don't think it's a good idea, but not right now.

Josh Anderson:

And that's where.

Josh Anderson:

In a previous episode, we talked about me returning to the scrum master role,

Josh Anderson:

the value of staying connected to.

Josh Anderson:

Doing the hard work on the front lines.

Josh Anderson:

Helps you remember that?

Josh Anderson:

You have a duty like to yourself?

Josh Anderson:

Two.

Josh Anderson:

Speak up, but also to the company, as a steward of the company, whether you're

Josh Anderson:

a leader, everybody's a leader, whether you have a leadership title or not.

Josh Anderson:

You have responsibilities to say, Hey, I think this is a bad idea.

Josh Anderson:

And here's why

Bob:

or balance the wrong I'd say that's a better.

Bob:

Right now is not the right time for us to navigate yet.

Bob:

Another thing you've had that discussion, I've heard you, I think

Bob:

talking Medicash occasionally that someone in your experience has talked

Bob:

to you and said, good idea, Josh, but now we're not going to do that now.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

We're in the middle of The other thing I want to bring back, I want to go

Bob:

back to what I've learned from sit tears model is I think I, I want to

Bob:

broaden change or keep a change log.

Bob:

So it's not just.

Bob:

Business change.

Bob:

It's all change.

Bob:

So if I remember years ago when I contact, we moved.

Bob:

From one building to the next that's a change.

Bob:

We moved floors.

Bob:

Someone met, someone said you have to move to the X floor.

Bob:

In the same building.

Bob:

That's a change.

Bob:

I wrote down.

Bob:

So Paul HR policy changes.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Org changes, learning a technology.

Bob:

You switched stacks.

Bob:

That's a change.

Bob:

T-shaped, they're pushing, T-shaped onus on me now.

Bob:

I have to do things that I'm learning.

Bob:

I'm uncomfortable, right?

Bob:

That's a change now.

Bob:

Think of agile transformation.

Bob:

There's a ton of change there.

Bob:

So it's not just agile.

Bob:

It's cumulative, whatever you're If you make people wear

Bob:

uniforms, that's a change, right?

Bob:

Whatever it is.

Bob:

If there's a global pandemic.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

That doesn't mean they're not all the same, but it's cha.

Bob:

It's change.

Bob:

Fatigue is all change.

Bob:

The other part of the individual is you're not leading automatons.

Bob:

You're leading people.

Bob:

So there's life changes on those parts.

Bob:

So part of the.

Bob:

The coaching.

Bob:

The one-on-one coaching and navigating the J curve is also asking what

Bob:

changes going on in your life.

Bob:

And then using that into, oh, they've

Bob:

They've had a change in their marital status.

Bob:

They've gotten a new baby.

Bob:

I was just talking to someone yesterday.

Bob:

And it's like a seven week old baby and he was incredibly happy.

Bob:

It's his first baby, but it was also like, yeah.

Bob:

He looked tired.

Bob:

He's exhausted.

Bob:

And it's just navigating and then he's navigating change at work.

Bob:

So he's at the beginning.

Bob:

Growth change at work and it's companies growing.

Bob:

And then he's navigating role change.

Bob:

His group is growing and then he got a baby at home and he's remote.

Bob:

He's a hundred percent remote.

Bob:

And it's just that's part of it.

Bob:

I'm not trying to build this huge snowball of excuses, but when I am saying.

Bob:

Is being cognizant of changes, not just agile in our context,

Bob:

it's much broader than, than

Josh Anderson:

that's the.

Josh Anderson:

That's the danger that we live in because.

Josh Anderson:

I was effectively.

Josh Anderson:

Raised to believe that those are excuses.

Josh Anderson:

And Josh.

Josh Anderson:

The old saying was don't tell me how rough the sea is.

Josh Anderson:

Just bring it to the damn ship.

Josh Anderson:

That's how I was raised both in my childhood and in school and sports.

Josh Anderson:

And all of that.

Josh Anderson:

Again, we talked about how that enabled me to stay on the field

Josh Anderson:

was I brought the ship in.

Josh Anderson:

No matter how Rocky the seas were.

Josh Anderson:

And so.

Josh Anderson:

That was my upbringing.

Josh Anderson:

Like I've talked a lot about everybody's path to now.

Josh Anderson:

That was my path to now was an ability to always dock the ship.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

Leaders, especially the older we are.

Josh Anderson:

That was the environment that, that we were raised in and they aren't excuses.

Josh Anderson:

They are facts.

Josh Anderson:

And those facts create other facts which are change and

Josh Anderson:

distraction for that person.

Josh Anderson:

As a leader, whenever someone appears to be struggling.

Josh Anderson:

You have to start with questions.

Josh Anderson:

Absolutely understand what's going on because I am sure that

Josh Anderson:

person wants to be performing.

Josh Anderson:

At as high a level as possible because you hired them for a

Josh Anderson:

reason because they're good.

Josh Anderson:

So what.

Josh Anderson:

Is causing them to slow down.

Josh Anderson:

Right now, is it you as a leader?

Josh Anderson:

Is it the company?

Josh Anderson:

Is it life?

Josh Anderson:

Is it who knows what.

Bob:

And then help them.

Bob:

Navigate that to accelerate through the changes.

Bob:

I do want to tee up an idea and see how you react to it.

Bob:

There.

Bob:

Jeffrey Moore had that crossing the chasm book.

Bob:

And there were like five phases.

Bob:

It was early adopters and early majority, late majority.

Bob:

And then he had this notion of laggards.

Bob:

At the end of the curve and laggards were, I always think of the crossing,

Bob:

the chasm, like the 80 20 rule.

Bob:

The percent of the folks are going to change, but there's always there's.

Bob:

I think there's always going to be folks who don't.

Bob:

Who don't navigate change.

Bob:

So very little coaching.

Bob:

So they're going to be in the danger zone almost all the time.

Bob:

They're not going to navigate, they're not looking for transformative ideas.

Bob:

Et cetera.

Bob:

What do you do with That's.

Josh Anderson:

To me, you have to honor who they are and how they want to operate.

Josh Anderson:

And earlier in my career, I would.

Josh Anderson:

Grab them by the Scruff of the neck and drag them across the finish line.

Josh Anderson:

And then I started to understand.

Josh Anderson:

This is not how this person wants to work.

Bob:

That's where my brain goes to.

Bob:

What is it to the You know that bus analogy, getting the right

Bob:

people in the room, on the bus.

Bob:

And getting the wrong people off the bus and getting them another bus or something.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

they're not bad people.

Josh Anderson:

Bad employees.

Josh Anderson:

It's just.

Josh Anderson:

The direction you're going, isn't a direction they want their

Josh Anderson:

career to go and that's okay.

Bob:

And it could be a change.

Bob:

The rate of change at your organization is just not for them.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

the standard approach I have is I help them find a job.

Josh Anderson:

I help them find.

Josh Anderson:

A place.

Josh Anderson:

That suits, whatever it is that they prefer, but too many people.

Josh Anderson:

Treat that group as castoffs.

Josh Anderson:

And don't.

Josh Anderson:

Honor.

Josh Anderson:

Who they aspire to be.

Josh Anderson:

And the fact that they are strong enough to say, I get you guys to go on that way.

Josh Anderson:

I don't want to go that way.

Josh Anderson:

And so as a leader, I can be, it doesn't matter.

Josh Anderson:

Like I did a couple of times just still coming with us.

Josh Anderson:

It's gotta be okay, cool.

Josh Anderson:

Understand it.

Josh Anderson:

How do we work through this?

Josh Anderson:

How can I help you?

Josh Anderson:

Find a spot.

Josh Anderson:

Cause then it's.

Josh Anderson:

That's the best outcome for both sides.

Josh Anderson:

That employee finds a happy place and you find an employee that wants to work.

Josh Anderson:

Through whatever change you're working through.

Josh Anderson:

When I say, I

Bob:

think if you don't do that, and again, I'm not trying to be a tool of the

Bob:

hunt, but I'm trying to have recognition.

Bob:

And then you want to have patient coaching.

Bob:

But I think if you don't do that, then those folks are going

Bob:

to increase the danger zone.

Bob:

Cause they're going to be dragging.

Bob:

They're going to be a braking system on their colleagues in the system.

Bob:

They're going to be slowing things down.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So you have to do, again, be humane, be thoughtful, be fair.

Bob:

Do all of those things.

Bob:

But also be self-aware recognize that.

Bob:

I do think there's a percentage of folks who they're just

Bob:

going to be dragging elements.

Bob:

In that model.

Bob:

I've never talked about that in the class, but now as we were

Bob:

talking through it, I'm like, yeah.

Bob:

I can see that.

Bob:

And it's, and maybe that's another that's part of the transformative part of the

Bob:

transformative idea, I think is not just for the individuals, but for the leader.

Bob:

Like the transformative ideas.

Bob:

How do I turn the corner on this change?

Bob:

And in this case, the leader recognizes that I have someone right.

Bob:

I have to make a shift for someone and one

Josh Anderson:

of the most common situations.

Josh Anderson:

In that scenario is the employee doesn't recognize.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So you have to.

Josh Anderson:

Have that discussion and oftentimes they're like, well, are you

Josh Anderson:

trying to find me like, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to fire you.

Josh Anderson:

Just having this, this discussion that I'm not sure.

Josh Anderson:

How you're going to be happy.

Josh Anderson:

Correct.

Josh Anderson:

In this job.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

If that's true after we talk it through.

Josh Anderson:

Cool.

Josh Anderson:

Let me help you find a place to be happy.

Josh Anderson:

Then make all that happen.

Josh Anderson:

And again, everybody's in a better spot.

Bob:

Now I bring this up all the time.

Bob:

I hear people talking about it.

Bob:

I usually pull folks and it's I described, chain change.

Bob:

Are you, have you seen change fatigue?

Bob:

Almost everyone has seen it.

Bob:

I interact with quite a few folks in FinTech.

Bob:

Basically they're very change.

Bob:

I think in different domains, there's different rates of change.

Bob:

FinTech is notoriously, at least in my perspective.

Bob:

Change friendly.

Bob:

What I'm trying to say is I think there's a lot of change fatigue

Bob:

So I think this is an important episode where don't just tolerate it, or if you

Bob:

like the company, don't just move on.

Bob:

It's do have communicate.

Bob:

Have these discussions where raise it up, that we're not there.

Bob:

The other thing is helped help your leaders find those transformative

Bob:

ideas, change, share those.

Bob:

If you find something.

Bob:

The what's in it for me share the what's in it for me.

Bob:

But open your mouth.

Bob:

There's a lot of aggressive change

Josh Anderson:

in the world and leaders pay freaking attention.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Like I had to learn how to because you will.

Josh Anderson:

Unknowingly.

Josh Anderson:

Do harm.

Josh Anderson:

With good intentions.

Josh Anderson:

You're doing harm.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And that's some of the most painful things you have to go through

Josh Anderson:

as leader when you realize, oh,

Josh Anderson:

Local dive done.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

But you have to pay attention.

Josh Anderson:

You have to think about it.

Josh Anderson:

You have to.

Josh Anderson:

Look and listen and ask

Bob:

why.

Bob:

And even something as simple as ask the teams, is this too much change?

Bob:

Like instead of injecting a change, I wish more leaders would ask their teams

Bob:

and say, I'm thinking of reorganizing, the dev ops reordering the dev ops team.

Bob:

What do you think, dev ops team, what do you, what are your

Bob:

reactions to that other folks?

Bob:

Do you think we've introduced too much change leaders?

Bob:

What do you think.

Bob:

And really just gaining like B creating safety and gaining feedback.

Bob:

I think there's uberous.

Bob:

I don't think there's a lot of permission for change out there as we want to get it.

Bob:

I don't think folks ask permission very often

Bob:

It should change.

Bob:

Maybe that's another.

Josh Anderson:

I have a real pet peeve.

Josh Anderson:

About change.

Josh Anderson:

That I've seen in some places where I've tried and tried and tried and

Josh Anderson:

tried to coach leaders out of doing Uh, but there was this very strong desire.

Josh Anderson:

To prepare.

Josh Anderson:

The change.

Josh Anderson:

Behind the scenes.

Josh Anderson:

Hold it and then have this grand reveal.

Josh Anderson:

Well,

Bob:

there's, you know, the language that I've rolling out to change.

Bob:

We need to roll it out.

Bob:

If you ever use that language, you have not.

Bob:

As permission you have thought deep thoughts behind the door, maybe with a

Bob:

small leadership And then what you're doing is plopping a pile of change on.

Bob:

You immediately go push everyone affected into the danger zone.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

some of the real churn I've seen is those leadership

Josh Anderson:

teams trying to get that rollout.

Josh Anderson:

Perfect.

Josh Anderson:

Yup.

Josh Anderson:

So they keep refining and panicking or panicking and refining.

Josh Anderson:

Oh, no, this could happen.

Josh Anderson:

Oh no, this could happen.

Josh Anderson:

So then the prep for that change goes on for literally months.

Josh Anderson:

That's

Bob:

a good, that's a good.

Bob:

Point.

Josh Anderson:

And during that time, It leaks out and it leaks

Bob:

out.

Bob:

And at that point, people are like, shoot me, just introduce it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I'm so tired of hearing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that just.

Bob:

So don't do that.

Bob:

So there's two lessons there.

Bob:

As permission and there were interrelated and get feedback from

Bob:

your team about the change early on.

Bob:

So instead of that behind closed doors, have it be transparent.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And include the team.

Bob:

And also, but also as the question of.

Bob:

Are we biting?

Bob:

Have we bitten off too much?

Bob:

Is this too aggressive and accept the, and the accept the yes.

Bob:

It is very often as a leader.

Bob:

All that's just, yeah, that's just resistance.

Bob:

My job is to drive my job.

Bob:

As I drive is through that, right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

No.

Bob:

Listen to your team.

Bob:

Yeah, I think we've nailed this.

Bob:

I as usual.

Bob:

That's that.

Bob:

Are you military does come through, but no I appreciate you entertaining this topic.

Bob:

It's a, I think it's an important topic.

Bob:

So medic I hope you got something from this and just be more change, aware.

Bob:

And talk about it, leaders.

Bob:

I think we've rattled your cage a bit, so just reflect on what we've

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown few Varina North Carolina.

Bob:

I'm Bob Gamblin.

Bob:

I'm Josh Anderson shake and bake.

Bob:

Take care.