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You know what.

You talking shit all those times at the last minute you canceled.

Come on.

Coma.

Come on.

That was a long time.

That's ancient history.

Talk to daddy.

Goodbye.

All right, here we go.

Episode 222.

That is right.

222 in sane.

I can't believe we've done that many.

And we got lots more lined

So.

Change.

Yeah, this is part of what agile is all about is responding to change.

Change can knock you out.

Today's episode is all about change fatigue and making sure you understand

when it's happening, know how to respond as a leader, know how to respond.

As a team member.

So here we go.

We'll wave my magic wand.

And we're off to the episode.

Are you tired?

Tired.

Yeah.

When I came in the door this morning, Josh, my butt was dragging behind me.

I mean, I heard this sound.

I thought it was like a square or something.

It was my.

I can be a lot more than the squirrel.

I was pretty,

I was pretty fatigued.

Yeah, let me tell you, why do you ask?

Well, I, you know, I've.

Been doing a lot of changing and all my jobs.

And I hear about this change fatigue.

Ooh.

And I thought maybe we should discuss.

Would you be interested?

I

would, okay.

Let's do it then.

I mean, if I can muster enough energy.

Yeah.

I'll try tired.

I'm always staging.

Yes, but wise beyond my years.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

So there is this notion impact in my leadership class.

I just did a cow class, a private cow class.

And I talk about change curves.

So to me, there's change fatigue and then a change cycles.

Or methods cutter.

I think John Kotter has a famous eight phase change.

Like how do you, how do you guide, what are the phases

of change in an organization?

And then there's another model that I like better than that.

A little bit.

It's a little more fluid or a little bit more nimble.

It's called the Virginia city tier change curve.

Or the Citier change curve.

It's a J curve.

So what does the J curve mean?

It's.

Physical orientation of it.

It looks like a J J.

So you enter.

So w she doesn't have timeframes or anything.

And she was a social worker, so she used it.

She used it in family, social work and child social work.

Where families have a change, like a father leaves the

family and that's a change.

So how do you navigate So the J curve is I'll just for the Medicare.

I'll just try to visualize it for But you enter with a change

called a foreign element and you immediately get into like, Chaos.

And there's a negative, you go below, like there's a status quo.

So the minute you introduce a change in the city or change curve, you

know, whatever your performance is, if your family was happy, you're

going to get sad or whatever.

If it's, if you introduce the change to an organization, a team might slow down.

So you immediately slowed down.

And you're in this, what they call, like what I call the danger zone, which is

depending on the size of the change, you go deep into change and then broad,

and you're trying to navigate it.

So you're in this chaos or this dangerous zone and resistance is in there as well.

What you try to find is a transformative idea.

And that idea starts to like what's in it for Or how do I in a family sense?

How am I going to go on without my dad?

And the transformative ideas, maybe I play football or something like that.

So then I start the transforming idea.

Then you start integrating the change.

And you can start coming out of the curve.

You pass the status quo.

So now you S you may, if it's a change that has, can have a positive

result, let's use the family example.

Your dad's having a negative effect, the football or the playing might actually

get you better off than when her dad was around and not doing a good job.

So you're integrating, and then you come out of the change curve

and you establish a new status quo.

So change is you, you go through these phases.

One reason I bring it up is, to make people aware of you, don't

instantaneously navigate change.

There's a negative, there's a net net negative effect in navigating change.

So you'd.

Like, something's going to give and it's not going to, and it's going to be

Until you turn it positive.

Of the others.

The another reason.

So change fatigue, the way I describe Is what if you're in the danger zone?

And you introduce another change.

And you haven't navigated.

Haven't you haven't actually integrated the previous one.

So now you're what now you're going deeper and broader.

And then if you, and if you introduce another change,

Very often in agile.

We're like, I see a lot of change organizationally.

That's not talking about families.

It's talking about organizations and.

Transformation.

A lot of organizations are like the change of the week club.

And it's not just agile transformation is all changes.

So if you change buildings, that's a change.

If you are working from home and get, and then have to go back to the office reorgs.

I think reorgs are notorious for change, like co like groups do reorgs

a while you're doing agile change.

So anything.

Where we're folks are like rolling their eyes.

So a physical manifestation of change fatigue to me is, you suggest

something that's really, maybe let's say it's a really good idea.

It's really relevant, but folks are like,

Another, yet another thing we have to navigate.

So Really relate to that in any Does it resonate with you?

Does it not?

It.

It does.

I am.

On the other end of the spectrum.

And throughout my career, I've had two.

Number one.

Recognize And then number two, adjust.

So throughout most of my life, I was rewarded for being resilient

to change and to evolving quickly.

So you navigated the J curve quickly, the Citier curve quickly that

maybe it's in your DNA to do that.

Benefited

me greatly in the directions.

I wanted to go on my life to be able to do

Okay.

Like with football, right.

I was going to ask you.

I'm sorry I was wondering if football

was a part of it because every week is a different opponent

and you can't do the same thing.

You get new coaches, you get new teammates.

You'd like stuff just changes and you have to change in the middle of the game.

So you have to be able to respond to that.

And if you can't.

Then somebody will probably be playing instead of you.

Okay.

So I, you know, I didn't put that together when you were saying,

I thought it was just arrogance.

Or something But no, the football makes a hell of a lot of sense.

We've talked lightly about that before,

And that was my.

That was my doorway into staying on the field.

Cause I played in front of two guys that got drafted because they were

physically more skilled and talented and larger and faster and all of the things.

But what I brought to the table was I gave the coaches the ultimate flexibility.

To do whatever they wanted with my position in a role.

And they know it would get done.

Okay.

So that's what kept me on the field was I became a Swiss army knife where I

could do whatever was needed, wherever, whenever, and we can change on a dime.

Right.

After a play or the next

series or whatever it was, they, you still go through those steps.

You may not even be conscious of them.

But you, you might go through them very quickly.

No matter.

On the football field in a matter of minutes or something.

But you don't have a choice.

Yeah.

Especially me, It's like, well, either I do this

or I want to be on the bench.

I didn't want to be on the bench.

So throughout my career, I struggled with.

Not even knowing chain fatigue was a thing.

Or your professional career professional.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So as I became a leader, And I felt like I was helping the organization evolve

at a fast pace to get to where we needed to be, to become who we aspire to be.

I was crushing people.

It just was too hard on them because they were.

Less trained in change or something.

Well, it's a blind spot for exactly, right?

I didn't know.

And I really drove some people into the ground, especially at the dude.

And I had to recognize

that.

Yeah.

There was this sort of disconnect between the level of change that you

could navigate or inspire and what the,

All right, I got,

I, I gave you these tissues because I planned.

Free to cry based on the quality of the.

The value I was adding to them.

The discussion.

Yeah.

I keep those tears inside.

And their.

And their tears.

They're tears of joy.

I

just forgot to take my allergy medicine

You have allergy medicine?

Yeah.

The dog.

No just, just in general.

Outside.

Okay.

All right.

That's fine.

And I'm not trying to dig into your personal life.

Um, I was like,

I hope you're not allergic to the dog.

I am

allergic to you.

I feel the same way.

So, no that's that?

I never realized that about you, that you, I know you are pushing.

But I never put two and two together that you might be.

Sort of, I didn't know

either.

Yeah, it was just okay, cool.

We did And I was looking for the next change, like, okay.

We evolved here.

What's the next step we need to make slash take.

And while that drove us to evolve quickly, it also had some collateral damage that I

wasn't aware of until I started to see it, feel it and hear it from folks on my team.

And then I.

Then I had to learn.

Okay, you've got to back off.

You have to understand.

Like the temperature of the team, things like that, that

I wasn't paying attention to.

It was just, we are going down this road as fast as we can.

Everybody hop on board.

And if you can't keep up.

So one of the things with the curve in the leadership classes, I, I talked to

leaders or I'm trying to make the point that everyone has their own change curve

speed and their tolerance for change.

So when you're coaching people individually in one-on-ones figure

out what their is, it there's our meet them in the J curve.

And then help them find their transformative ideas themselves.

So that's what, so instead of pushing them, Pushing them doesn't.

It just does harm.

Now what you can, if you want to accelerate, then help them navigate the J

curve, help them find the transformative idea, help them integrate it so that

they start seeing what's in it for them.

And then they'll accelerate.

They'll get optimistic.

So that's one thing I think that the model or the metaphor helps

with leaders is to look at that.

Help people navigate individually through the change because we

all have different your fast.

FA I'm trying to think of muscles are faster.

You're a fast Twitch in that aspect.

Aspect of my life.

Yeah.

And then slow Twitch people.

The other thing is packaging change.

So another aspect is if you're going to navigate it.

Then do you want to, Do you want to take small changes, large changes,

or an aggregate like packaging of the amount of change is important.

I think or be thoughtful about what you're like, how many changes are put together.

And then the other thing is getting people to the status quo.

Trying to be really reluctant to introduce a new change until, and

it's not just achieving the new status quo, let people rebel on it

just for the, for a period of time.

Let them have the breath.

Let them see the result of the change.

Get some positive energy.

And let them rebel and rest for a week before you drop another J curve on them.

So those are two additional sort of thinking ideas.

So the coaching, the packaging be strategic, and that

doesn't mean small change.

That could be, you know what, instead of dripping small changes, Which

might extend the dangerous zone.

Maybe I drop a, a moderate change.

And then I have some patients to navigate that

the hard Four.

Leaders listening.

Is that there's no equation.

We can give you to say.

This is how you regulate change.

That's the challenge I have.

I see people, but when I'm live a little bit with virtual people are blinking.

It's is this important?

Is this just an old man ranting and how, and what the hell

are you telling me to do?

And there is a that's the problem.

There is no algorithm that you can run people through.

You can't run individuals through it.

You can't run an organization through it.

It's more be cognizant of it.

Yeah.

So for me, when I discovered this.

I realized, I think the term they used was really good was it was a blind spot.

There was a blind spot.

I had no idea.

So I just had to start paying attention.

And I would ask a lot of questions of leaders across the organization

of, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

What do you think?

How would your team react?

Is it too soon?

To lay there, just whatever.

So gathering as much data as possible.

So I felt like I can make.

A better choice than I have, or I would just like blindly charge.

So again, we can't give you a plus B equals C and this is how much you

change and when you change and how you do it, like that just doesn't exist.

As we've covered in so many spots here.

You're going to have to just do the hard, messy work to figure it out and try

And see what works and what doesn't.

I think also back off, right?

There could be some detection.

Yeah.

What does change fatigue if you're overdoing Maybe you could

characterize that a little bit.

What did you see?

You know what.

Burned out people.

What were the things that you saw?

It got

vocalized to me through.

Some of the team members that I was most friendly Okay.

So they would say Josh.

Can we not do this?

I'm like, why?

Like we clearly need to do it.

Lets it go.

We just changed this Kenya, not do and I'm like why?

Like what's, what's You know, so like my instant reaction is

like, what's wrong with you?

Why can't you handle this?

And that after talking to you're just wearing the crap out of us.

Yeah.

And so they talk through what, like the previous six months were, and it

was like a giant slap in the face.

It was like, oh boy, you have really been failing this team.

And the problem there is that they really care.

You were, you are a good leader, right?

And people work with you.

They're loved you.

So they would go, which is kind of a problem because, by the time you

heard from anyone, yeah, it was like, they were already burned out.

And fizzle, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that was an eye-opener.

So again, This is where.

My ability to change quickly.

Paid

off.

So you change.

Just slow down.

Yeah.

I.

Instantly I changed.

Yeah.

One of the things that.

And to me, like just a life thing.

There was a period at Teradata after you left.

And I think I've told this story before where I was just like, the work was

consuming me and I came home from work one day and my wife said to me like, Hey.

The kids say you aren't the same dad anymore.

Like you're going to have to figure something out at work.

Cause this isn't just working and.

I changed instantly.

Cause as soon as I understood how it was affecting my family.

I felt irresponsible.

If I let it go on another second.

So again, that's another one of those things where.

My ability to do that.

Paid off.

And it.

Enabled air quote success.

In that space.

But.

Again, I don't think I'm normal.

In that.

Yeah, not in that.

I think.

The other thing from a leadership that I was thinking about.

Most leaders I think are driven.

Yeah.

And so most leaders are, they may be wired, not like you are,

like you navigate the change.

But I think a lot of leaders push change.

Not just because of their own, like your internal compass was driving that,

but you've worked in organizations where changes just coming at you.

Hot and heavy from outside market changes leader.

Reorgs leadership changes, et cetera.

And as leaders, you just have to push that downstream.

So I think this is a problem.

I think leaders it's inherent in leadership in today's organizations that

were probably overly pushing change.

No, some of them are more tolerant of it or more changed, friendly than others.

But being aware of the fatigue.

I think it's important.

It's an important thing to come up with some indicator or set of

indicators for your organization of, I would say eye rolls or resistance.

I would measure when you're getting resistance.

I would guess.

There's There's normalized resistance.

There's cultural resistance that whatever's normal for the organization,

but when it exceeds whatever normal is.

Then you may be pushing too hard would be another indicator,

right?

And as a leader, you also have a responsibility to.

Resist upwards.

Yeah, that change is coming down and say no, exactly.

Let's wait for six weeks.

Or whatever the appropriate time is, and not allow that that's your duty as

a leader to your crew that might already be fatigued, that you need to protect

them and let them get through that curve.

Yeah.

So let's put the shoe on the other foot.

You're not a leader and you're in an environment where there's a lot of change

and you're beginning to feel fatigued.

How could you, should you

respond?

I think you gave an example, probably one Powerful examples.

I don't think you just take it.

And a lot.

And I think actually that's the default mode for most teams and individuals.

It's like, it's inevitable.

So I just have to tolerate it or something.

And try to change myself.

I would communicate to your leaders or whoever's driving the change.

Like you were lucky, but you had, now you had a relationship.

I would say, even if you don't have a relationship somehow,

As a team or you, or get more members to communicate up because what's happening

is you're not navigating to net net.

You are net, net negative beyond the human being feelings.

You, whatever in organizational change, you probably have slowed down.

You probably lost something.

And you haven't navigated to improvement.

So from a pure business point of view, you have to get to that new status quo.

And there's only one way to get there, which is internalized the change.

As a group.

So try to accelerate that.

So it's in your best interest.

To try to slow.

Slow folks It's also in the

companies.

Yeah, that's interest.

And I think that's a thing you can bring to that discussion is.

Listen.

This will make it difficult.

For us to produce at the pace that we have been, and we know how important it

is for us to do We're introducing a risk.

If we create this change and have that discussion habit from the.

Yeah.

From the understanding of the business and where it's trying to go and show how.

Not doing this right now is a good thing.

It's not that we don't want to do it.

Not that we don't think it's a good idea, but not right now.

And that's where.

In a previous episode, we talked about me returning to the scrum master role,

the value of staying connected to.

Doing the hard work on the front lines.

Helps you remember that?

You have a duty like to yourself?

Two.

Speak up, but also to the company, as a steward of the company, whether you're

a leader, everybody's a leader, whether you have a leadership title or not.

You have responsibilities to say, Hey, I think this is a bad idea.

And here's why

or balance the wrong I'd say that's a better.

Right now is not the right time for us to navigate yet.

Another thing you've had that discussion, I've heard you, I think

talking Medicash occasionally that someone in your experience has talked

to you and said, good idea, Josh, but now we're not going to do that now.

Yeah.

Right.

We're in the middle of The other thing I want to bring back, I want to go

back to what I've learned from sit tears model is I think I, I want to

broaden change or keep a change log.

So it's not just.

Business change.

It's all change.

So if I remember years ago when I contact, we moved.

From one building to the next that's a change.

We moved floors.

Someone met, someone said you have to move to the X floor.

In the same building.

That's a change.

I wrote down.

So Paul HR policy changes.

Yeah.

Org changes, learning a technology.

You switched stacks.

That's a change.

T-shaped, they're pushing, T-shaped onus on me now.

I have to do things that I'm learning.

I'm uncomfortable, right?

That's a change now.

Think of agile transformation.

There's a ton of change there.

So it's not just agile.

It's cumulative, whatever you're If you make people wear

uniforms, that's a change, right?

Whatever it is.

If there's a global pandemic.

Exactly.

That doesn't mean they're not all the same, but it's cha.

It's change.

Fatigue is all change.

The other part of the individual is you're not leading automatons.

You're leading people.

So there's life changes on those parts.

So part of the.

The coaching.

The one-on-one coaching and navigating the J curve is also asking what

changes going on in your life.

And then using that into, oh, they've

They've had a change in their marital status.

They've gotten a new baby.

I was just talking to someone yesterday.

And it's like a seven week old baby and he was incredibly happy.

It's his first baby, but it was also like, yeah.

He looked tired.

He's exhausted.

And it's just navigating and then he's navigating change at work.

So he's at the beginning.

Growth change at work and it's companies growing.

And then he's navigating role change.

His group is growing and then he got a baby at home and he's remote.

He's a hundred percent remote.

And it's just that's part of it.

I'm not trying to build this huge snowball of excuses, but when I am saying.

Is being cognizant of changes, not just agile in our context,

it's much broader than, than

that's the.

That's the danger that we live in because.

I was effectively.

Raised to believe that those are excuses.

And Josh.

The old saying was don't tell me how rough the sea is.

Just bring it to the damn ship.

That's how I was raised both in my childhood and in school and sports.

And all of that.

Again, we talked about how that enabled me to stay on the field

was I brought the ship in.

No matter how Rocky the seas were.

And so.

That was my upbringing.

Like I've talked a lot about everybody's path to now.

That was my path to now was an ability to always dock the ship.

And.

Leaders, especially the older we are.

That was the environment that, that we were raised in and they aren't excuses.

They are facts.

And those facts create other facts which are change and

distraction for that person.

As a leader, whenever someone appears to be struggling.

You have to start with questions.

Absolutely understand what's going on because I am sure that

person wants to be performing.

At as high a level as possible because you hired them for a

reason because they're good.

So what.

Is causing them to slow down.

Right now, is it you as a leader?

Is it the company?

Is it life?

Is it who knows what.

And then help them.

Navigate that to accelerate through the changes.

I do want to tee up an idea and see how you react to it.

There.

Jeffrey Moore had that crossing the chasm book.

And there were like five phases.

It was early adopters and early majority, late majority.

And then he had this notion of laggards.

At the end of the curve and laggards were, I always think of the crossing,

the chasm, like the 80 20 rule.

The percent of the folks are going to change, but there's always there's.

I think there's always going to be folks who don't.

Who don't navigate change.

So very little coaching.

So they're going to be in the danger zone almost all the time.

They're not going to navigate, they're not looking for transformative ideas.

Et cetera.

What do you do with That's.

To me, you have to honor who they are and how they want to operate.

And earlier in my career, I would.

Grab them by the Scruff of the neck and drag them across the finish line.

And then I started to understand.

This is not how this person wants to work.

That's where my brain goes to.

What is it to the You know that bus analogy, getting the right

people in the room, on the bus.

And getting the wrong people off the bus and getting them another bus or something.

And

they're not bad people.

Bad employees.

It's just.

The direction you're going, isn't a direction they want their

career to go and that's okay.

And it could be a change.

The rate of change at your organization is just not for them.

Yeah.

And

the standard approach I have is I help them find a job.

I help them find.

A place.

That suits, whatever it is that they prefer, but too many people.

Treat that group as castoffs.

And don't.

Honor.

Who they aspire to be.

And the fact that they are strong enough to say, I get you guys to go on that way.

I don't want to go that way.

And so as a leader, I can be, it doesn't matter.

Like I did a couple of times just still coming with us.

It's gotta be okay, cool.

Understand it.

How do we work through this?

How can I help you?

Find a spot.

Cause then it's.

That's the best outcome for both sides.

That employee finds a happy place and you find an employee that wants to work.

Through whatever change you're working through.

When I say, I

think if you don't do that, and again, I'm not trying to be a tool of the

hunt, but I'm trying to have recognition.

And then you want to have patient coaching.

But I think if you don't do that, then those folks are going

to increase the danger zone.

Cause they're going to be dragging.

They're going to be a braking system on their colleagues in the system.

They're going to be slowing things down.

Yeah.

So you have to do, again, be humane, be thoughtful, be fair.

Do all of those things.

But also be self-aware recognize that.

I do think there's a percentage of folks who they're just

going to be dragging elements.

In that model.

I've never talked about that in the class, but now as we were

talking through it, I'm like, yeah.

I can see that.

And it's, and maybe that's another that's part of the transformative part of the

transformative idea, I think is not just for the individuals, but for the leader.

Like the transformative ideas.

How do I turn the corner on this change?

And in this case, the leader recognizes that I have someone right.

I have to make a shift for someone and one

of the most common situations.

In that scenario is the employee doesn't recognize.

Yeah.

So you have to.

Have that discussion and oftentimes they're like, well, are you

trying to find me like, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to fire you.

Just having this, this discussion that I'm not sure.

How you're going to be happy.

Correct.

In this job.

And.

If that's true after we talk it through.

Cool.

Let me help you find a place to be happy.

Then make all that happen.

And again, everybody's in a better spot.

Now I bring this up all the time.

I hear people talking about it.

I usually pull folks and it's I described, chain change.

Are you, have you seen change fatigue?

Almost everyone has seen it.

I interact with quite a few folks in FinTech.

Basically they're very change.

I think in different domains, there's different rates of change.

FinTech is notoriously, at least in my perspective.

Change friendly.

What I'm trying to say is I think there's a lot of change fatigue

So I think this is an important episode where don't just tolerate it, or if you

like the company, don't just move on.

It's do have communicate.

Have these discussions where raise it up, that we're not there.

The other thing is helped help your leaders find those transformative

ideas, change, share those.

If you find something.

The what's in it for me share the what's in it for me.

But open your mouth.

There's a lot of aggressive change

in the world and leaders pay freaking attention.

Yeah.

Like I had to learn how to because you will.

Unknowingly.

Do harm.

With good intentions.

You're doing harm.

Yeah.

And that's some of the most painful things you have to go through

as leader when you realize, oh,

Local dive done.

Yep.

But you have to pay attention.

You have to think about it.

You have to.

Look and listen and ask

why.

And even something as simple as ask the teams, is this too much change?

Like instead of injecting a change, I wish more leaders would ask their teams

and say, I'm thinking of reorganizing, the dev ops reordering the dev ops team.

What do you think, dev ops team, what do you, what are your

reactions to that other folks?

Do you think we've introduced too much change leaders?

What do you think.

And really just gaining like B creating safety and gaining feedback.

I think there's uberous.

I don't think there's a lot of permission for change out there as we want to get it.

I don't think folks ask permission very often

It should change.

Maybe that's another.

I have a real pet peeve.

About change.

That I've seen in some places where I've tried and tried and tried and

tried to coach leaders out of doing Uh, but there was this very strong desire.

To prepare.

The change.

Behind the scenes.

Hold it and then have this grand reveal.

Well,

there's, you know, the language that I've rolling out to change.

We need to roll it out.

If you ever use that language, you have not.

As permission you have thought deep thoughts behind the door, maybe with a

small leadership And then what you're doing is plopping a pile of change on.

You immediately go push everyone affected into the danger zone.

Absolutely.

And

some of the real churn I've seen is those leadership

teams trying to get that rollout.

Perfect.

Yup.

So they keep refining and panicking or panicking and refining.

Oh, no, this could happen.

Oh no, this could happen.

So then the prep for that change goes on for literally months.

That's

a good, that's a good.

Point.

And during that time, It leaks out and it leaks

out.

And at that point, people are like, shoot me, just introduce it.

Right.

I'm so tired of hearing.

Yeah.

And that just.

So don't do that.

So there's two lessons there.

As permission and there were interrelated and get feedback from

your team about the change early on.

So instead of that behind closed doors, have it be transparent.

Yeah.

And include the team.

And also, but also as the question of.

Are we biting?

Have we bitten off too much?

Is this too aggressive and accept the, and the accept the yes.

It is very often as a leader.

All that's just, yeah, that's just resistance.

My job is to drive my job.

As I drive is through that, right?

Yep.

No.

Listen to your team.

Yeah, I think we've nailed this.

I as usual.

That's that.

Are you military does come through, but no I appreciate you entertaining this topic.

It's a, I think it's an important topic.

So medic I hope you got something from this and just be more change, aware.

And talk about it, leaders.

I think we've rattled your cage a bit, so just reflect on what we've

So from beautiful downtown few Varina North Carolina.

I'm Bob Gamblin.

I'm Josh Anderson shake and bake.

Take care.