Episode Summary: This is a segment from a previous episode in which Jenn Swanson, Brian Tormey and Leekei Tang talk about a new milestone on the road to nuclear fusion

In December 2022, the nuclear fusion research effort reached a major breakthrough whereby the reaction generated more energy than it consumed (ignition)

After sharing their understanding of the subject and why this news set a milestone for a future of clean energy, Jenn, Leekei and Brian toyed with various scenarios of possible tomorrows where energy is in abundance.

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

article in Nature.com US nuclear-fusion lab enters new era: achieving ‘ignition’ over and over

You can find out more on page 186 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 094

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From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

and today we are talking about No Clear Fu

2

Okay, we are recording this

episode in, in December.

3

This is the second week of December,

and this episode will probably be

4

realized in January, but something,

something major broke the news last week.

5

This week, actually two days ago.

6

Tell us more the, the real

definition of a newsflash . Right.

7

Um, well, I think, you

know, it's exciting.

8

The, um, the, you know, some US

scientists, although I will give a

9

quick shout out here, some people have

commented, noted that there's a number of

10

groups in Europe also working, and we're

near this kind of, uh, milestone as well.

11

But maybe the war in Ukraine

slowed down some of their progress.

12

But for the moment, uh,

here in December, some US.

13

Have achieved what's called ignition in a,

in a fusion reaction, um, which, and then

14

sort of overcome this ignition barrier.

15

We'll come back and dive a little bit

into fusion, but it sort of means that

16

they've produced more energy than it took

to create that amount of energy creation.

17

Um, and so that's a, a

super exciting milestone,

18

I've listened to podcast hats only

four or five months ago that were

19

all about fusion, and it was like,

well, it's always only 10 years away

20

before we're gonna achieve this.

21

You know, crossing this ignition

energy barrier where we're actually

22

drawing more power out of the

reaction than what into creating the.

23

but here we are in December of 2022

and we've crossed that barrier.

24

Um, and it's super duper exciting

and I think holds, you know, a lot of

25

exciting stuff for us to chat about here.

26

Um, you know, I guess I would turn and

ask, uh, leaky, you know, you, you were

27

sharing and sort of talking a little bit

about the amount of energy on any one

28

country driven by different sources of.

29

And, you know, fusion is not one

that's driving for any country

30

right now, but something somewhat

similar to fusion Nuclear power.

31

Yes.

32

Yeah.

33

Is is dominant in your country, correct?

34

Yeah.

35

Yeah.

36

I, well as you know, um, in France

and in France, , , the source of

37

energy is many nuclear because.

38

Um, there was, um, crisis,

the oil crisis in seven in

39

the seventies and, um, and the

government decided to, to, develop.

40

The, um, nuclear energy sector.

41

There was this very famous

phrase, uh, that says

42

which means in France we have no

oil, but we have lots of ideas.

43

And the idea was to switch

everything , uh, to nuclear power.

44

And so, I think before, , all the,

uh, the, you know, the problems

45

in Japan, , France was leading,

the nuclear energy sector.

46

And, um, I think that 70% of,

of energy comes from nuclear,

47

um, nuclear plants in front.

48

It used to, um, not anymore

because um, a lot of them are

49

been, , under repair these days.

50

, but this is something that we've been

using for a while and um, and I know

51

that's very controversial, . It's a

very controversial topic, but so far we

52

didn't have any problem in France and.

53

I get very excited about, the fusion, uh,

the nuclear fusion power, , as opposed to

54

fishing, which is when you get the energy,

when, when you separate the atoms, right?

55

So this is the energy

that is, uh, used today.

56

And the problem of it is

that it creates, Love waste.

57

No, it creates waste.

58

No, I shouldn't say a love waste.

59

It creates waste and it's difficult

because it's potent for a long time.

60

And, um, there are accents, whereas

the, , energy that comes from

61

fusion, , is the energy that's that

powers the sun and this is the type

62

of energy that comes from, , Fusion.

63

So from the atoms melting, , and it's

safer and um, and it's seems to be

64

an incredible, um, source of energy

that is, um, that does not, em,

65

it's common, so it's clean energy.

66

So there was a lot of

hope, but, , as you said.

67

Um, yeah, we are maybe 10 years away.

68

, but, you know, I work a lot with, , um,

engineering students and they told me that

69

this the joke and let me pull the joke,

uh, among physicists, uh, lemme see, think

70

it's, um, yeah, there's a joke that says,

oh, nuclear fusion energy is 20 years.

71

and it will always be

72

Yeah.

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This is a joke because actually

the technology, um, and

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again, I'm not a physicist.

75

I'm not a scientist at all, but

I know that this type of energy

76

existed, um, since the fifties.

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But basically it comes from a bomb.

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, it's a very, very powerful bomb.

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It's called, um, um, H bomb or it's a

hydrogen bomb, which is like, I don't

80

know how many times more pot than it is,

uh, as compared to, , the atomic bomb,

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but it's really, really, really bad.

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But then we saw the potential

in transforming it and using it,

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this type of, this technology

and to generate energy and, and

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to plug it to, into our grid.

85

But there are of problems that

needs to be solved before that.

86

So that's why it took so long.

87

Agreed.

88

I was gonna say, you know, just commenting

back on the beginning part of your,

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uh, commentary that leaky, I, you know,

I'm here in the United States in New

90

York and I actually live near a nuclear

power plant that is in the process as

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many are in other parts of the world

of actually being decommissioned and

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over concerns of their potential, you

know, fallout kind of situation as it

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relates to, you know, systems failure.

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and so many around the world of

this, what is otherwise a very clean

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type of energy source that doesn't

contribute to our, our sort of the,

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the imbalance in our carbon cycle.

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Many nuclear power plants are

actually being decommissioned out of

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concerns over their age, their safety

protocols, those kind of things.

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And I live in an area where, you know,

my energy now is this power plant

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becomes decommissioned because we

don't yet have a fusion replacement.

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Now that energy that I otherwise

would be consuming and the people

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in the local area, including New

York City, would be consuming.

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You're now gonna come from other

plants that might be natural

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gas powered or coal tower.

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you know, maybe a little bit of hydro,

maybe a little bit of solar, a little

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bit of wind, but, but they all have,

those have other sort of negative

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impacts into this carbon cycle imbalance.

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And it's gonna actually have an

impact as well to the cost, right?

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The, the, because the nuclear is actually

was already built and very cost efficient.

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it's actually gonna

raise the electrics rate.

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Now I happen to have a full solar

array, so we're self-powered in

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my house, but most people aren't.

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And so it's interesting, I think

one of the conversations around

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fusion comes back to the same thing.

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If you compare the different sources

of energy out there in the marketplace,

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um, the cost to produce a kilowatt

hour used as a standard measuring

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thing, you know, varies across these d.

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Technology, nuclear, coal, natural

gas fired, hydro wind, solar, and

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fusion Hold potential because as you

mentioned, the, the, the ingredients

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that go into making fusion work are

yeah, readily, abundantly available.

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And don't create this, this sort of

like, um, waste material that has to

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be dealt with, uh, like, uh, depleted

uranium done and both kind of.

123

Yes.

124

And so it's readily available materials

and if we can get this equation right, or

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if this is the great hope is if we can get

this balance right, where less energy goes

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in, you know, two, yeah, megajoules go in

and we get three megajoules of energy out.

127

Well then that can be the sort of

self-fulfilling like that and then

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helps start powering all the rest of it.

129

But for right now, some of

the commentary and have been.

130

You know, on this discovery as well,

for right now, we actually have

131

an amazing source of fusion power.

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And it's actually our sun.

133

Our sun is producing fusion

power every single day.

134

I mean, today for me, it's very rainy and

wet and I don't see much of the fusion

135

power, but it's, but it's producing

all this fusion power there in the

136

sun, which we receive a solar energy.

137

Um, and so I think there's

a, a little bit of a question

138

of like, what's gonna happen?

139

With fusion, when, when does it come into

play and become a cost affordable thing?

140

And does it re, does, does it mean

that we need to not be worried

141

about our source of energy and our,

our carbon cycle imbalance now?

142

And I turned, Jim, do you

have thoughts on this?

143

Yeah, I was just, uh, doing

a little research on, on what

144

was happening where I am.

145

I'm in Canada, I'm in Western

Canada, in British Columbia.

146

And it seems that there were, there are

about 22 nuclear power reactors in Canada,

147

but only 19 of them are working, and most

of them are in Ontario, which is, uh,

148

is more central, uh, eastern central.

149

Um, there are the one in Quebec decided

to shut down about 10 years ago because

150

of the same kinds of things that we

had talked about, um, about safety and.

151

And efficiency, and I know that here in

British Columbia we have a lot of water.

152

And there, uh, there's big argument

going on that's been going on for years.

153

Um, our government decided to purchase

a, um, a pipeline, which caused a lot of

154

controversy and there are protests and

there are all sorts of things going on.

155

Um, we've got a, a big dam that's

being constructed in the north.

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Called the Site C Dam.

157

Um, and, uh, and the idea is

to dam a very powerful river,

158

uh, for hydroelectric power.

159

Um, so there's a lot of, there's a

lot of power discussions and, and

160

so this, this caused me a bit of

hope, , especially given the, the

161

reduction of carbon like no carbon.

162

And the possibility that if we could

do what we did with the pandemic

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and everybody jump on board and try

and get this pushed farther ahead,

164

you know, it seems to be like when

there's an urgent matter, like the

165

pandemic, sorry, that's Charlie shaking.

166

Um, like the pandemic where

every scientist focused

167

their energy and their money.

168

If we could all, everyone,

scientists everywhere Yeah.

169

Focus their energy and their money on

this, then, then there's real hope Yeah.

170

For, for reducing our carbon and, and

giving energy to everyone and Wow.

171

You know, Jen, there was a, uh,

a great little piece I, I read

172

on the fundraising in 2022.

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Uh, as it relates to, there were 33 main

companies that were sort of raising funds

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and focusing on fusion of meaningful

sides and, and fundraising scale.

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And the amount that was fundraised was

a fraction of the, I think it was in

176

total $3 billion, if I recall correctly,

but I could be slightly wrong on that.

177

Don't quote me.

178

But I do recall that it was a

fraction, like less than 10%.

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Of the same amount of money raised for,

uh, companies focusing on addressing

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like short-term delivery, like delivering

restaurant food to your door and short

181

and delivering packages to your door, and

like technology around like, Uber Eats.

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I don't know if you have these where

you are, but things like Uber Eat

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or GrubHub or those things, like

much more money, more than 10 times

184

money was raised for those services

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But this, this, this big

milestone might change that we

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may see a change in the future.

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So I'm, I'm hopeful.

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That things do go in the direction

that they're more funding dollars

189

resources, you know, federal for,

you know, every country, you know,

190

dollars are allocated towards.

191

And therewith with the money goes the time

and energy from scientists and engineers.

192

I, I hope it does go that way.

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Yeah.

194

Uh, and I, I wanna go back to, um,

the urgency that you mentioned, Jen.

195

I actually, I said something that was

not totally right because when I said,

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oh yeah, well, in France, we, in Europe,

we've been working on this topic for

197

long and, uh, it's been slowed down

because of the war of Ukraine, which

198

is partly true, but not totally true

because, um, As you, as you mentioned,

199

Brian, there are different ways of,

different ways of, um, of, getting the

200

potential of the, uh, nuclear fusion.

201

And, uh, so it's true for one,

, project, which is laser based, uh,

202

which is based in France, in bau.

203

And, um, they were, they were waiting

for like, Still delivery to, to

204

work on the, on the laser thing.

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But then there's another project

which is, and you probably have

206

heard of it because it's this

international project, which is called.

207

Which stands for, hang on just one minute.

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Um, stands for International

Thermonuclear Experimental Rector.

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And this is a project, it's an

international product and it has

210

European Union, China, us, Russia, India.

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So a lot of countries are involved in this

project and they're building a new recor.

212

And this new rector is based somewhere.

213

Okay.

214

Somewhere in.

215

And, um, and, um, the test should start

some, the test test should start sometime

216

in, uh, it gets your dog Very excited.

217

Wasn't mine, not very excited.

218

No.

219

So it, the Rakuten, uh, was

supposed to start, uh, being oper

220

to start operating in 20 27, 25.

221

And, um, because of the urgency, and

it, because it's an international

222

project, there was a lot, um, of fear,

, because, um, Russia is part of this

223

project and, uh, this year, uh, Russia.

224

Has, um, um, is um, is supposed to

deliver one of the magnets, one of

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the six magnet for this project.

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A big, very, very big magnet because

this is another technology that uses

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magnet and actually, , because there's a

urgency and despite the worst situ still

228

delivered this magnet to this project.

229

So I think this kind

of urgency goes beyond.

230

The worst situation.

231

So yeah.

232

Yeah.

233

I, yeah, I think this is

this, uh, this is great.

234

That's great to hear that.

235

Leave me a good moment.

236

Leaky, to talk for a, a second

about the different kinds of, of

237

technical approaches to fusion.

238

because, you know, and again, I'm also

not a scientist, physicist, engineer, or

239

expert in this, as none of us on this, uh,

podcast are, but it is interesting because

240

the, the, the it a r project you're

referring to is, is following this method.

241

Referred to as Tomac, where they're

these really big magnetic, um, uh,

242

components that create this sort of donut

shaped field, the plasma, and moving

243

around at super fast speed constrained

by the magnet and these Tomac magnet,

244

these big things that Russia just

delivered, one of which is great to hear.

245

This newest, um, uh, breakthrough that

just happened, you know, for us this

246

week here in December, um, out at the

Lawrence Livermore Labs, um, which

247

I have to have a quick shout out.

248

I, it just dawned on me.

249

I actually have a coworker who

works at Lawrence Livermore,

250

so I've gotta call him.

251

He now works there.

252

He worked for me many years ago.

253

Um, uh, not on this project, on, on other

things, but, but, so the approach they

254

did was a different kind of approach

where they had all these lasers, 192

255

different lasers all focused, and

they do use magnets to create some

256

magnetic field around it and create

the precision, but it's not the same

257

as the Tomac project where they focus

all these lasers at this little seed.

258

Um, and sort of like create all this

pressure because all the lasers hit

259

all at just the right second, all

perfectly aligned and, and whatnot.

260

Um, so it's interesting cuz there's,

there's essentially two competing

261

approaches to achieving this

kind of ignition fusion energy.

262

There's two different models at play here.

263

I would not say competing.

264

I would say complimentary

because, uh, yeah, complimentary.

265

Right, right.

266

But like, yeah, if like, you know, it's

like, In early, in the early days of

267

the invention of the bicycle, there

were different like form factors Yes.

268

That were being experimented with and

like, and we now have current form factor

269

that sort of became that, you know, under

pressure of evolutionary pressures became

270

the form factor that we all know today.

271

But in the beginning there were

numerous different form factors that

272

were, you know, being tested out and

tried and, and here we've got the ITER

273

project is sort of one form factor.

274

and the, the Livermore Labs project

that just achieved this, this whole

275

milestone is a different form factor.

276

It's like a different style of

achieving the goal, uh, and structure.

277

So it's exciting to see that there's

more than one thing in motion.

278

Cause it feels to me that that

diversity of approach maybe,

279

hopefully, will lead to even more

likelihood of outcome of success.

280

Isn't that true of many things like

the radio and the, the light bulb?

281

There were all sorts of things that were,

um, Being dreamed up in various places.

282

Um, and uh, and so it's funny how

that all of a sudden breakthroughs

283

happen in multiple places.

284

Around the same subject.

285

I think that's so amazing.

286

. Yeah.

287

I don't know if you, because we've been,

we are talking now a lot about, uh,

288

nuclear fusion in the past few days.

289

And I don't know if you remember, uh, in

back to the future, um, there was a scene

290

where, um, Can't, what's the name with Z?

291

Well, the doc goes to Maori and

say, okay, well , I need to take you

292

to the future because, uh, because

there's an urgent matter to that

293

needs to you to, to help solve.

294

And um, so he has his car and he goes to

the, to the, , garbage and picks some.

295

Some garbage and put into like a

kind of grinder in his car, and

296

this grinder is attached to his car.

297

And it says, uh, mis fusion.

298

So I believe that this is, this,

this kind of thing was like,

299

um, , a portable, um, huge rec.

300

On the car.

301

So maybe the future will be like this.

302

. I love it.

303

, back to the future, invented . Yeah.

304

He, he doesn't get literally

some, I remember that scene.

305

He's in an alleyway and he gets

some like banana peels and things.

306

Puts him in the car with him.

307

Yeah.

308

And yeah, so this probably, this

might be the future, I mean the

309

future that some people dreamed

of and, uh, might be our future.

310

Yeah, but well, the problem is that

it's, it's not tomorrow because

311

it takes a long, long time for

it to That's very cool though.

312

I, I remember , I was just gonna say,

I remember when my son was a little

313

boy and he, we asked him what, um, what

he wanted Santa to bring him, and he

314

said, a watch that I can watch TV on.

315

And this was in the 1990s.

316

, there was no such thing . And so, you

know, Santa had a really hard time cause

317

there was no such thing and Santa

was too busy to invent it that year,

318

but , um, but isn't it interesting that

our human imagination and creativity

319

can come up with the solutions that,

that the world needs when we need it?

320

So that, that brings me hope, . But

that doesn't mean that , because of

321

this breakthrough, uh, we can and we

should stop, you know, what we're doing

322

now to try to reduce carbon emission

because it takes some time, right?

323

Yeah, we do right?

324

We, this, this isn't a technology

that will solve our problems tomorrow.

325

This is exciting.

326

We can be very excited.

327

We've made a forward progress,

but, and maybe this is a moment

328

to even sort of acknowledge.

329

That there are still parts in this

breakthrough that the measurement

330

of, again, using two, you know,

megajoules turned into three, that

331

doesn't mean that it's fully taken

into account all of the other energies

332

that went into producing the machine.

333

The equipment like we with, there's

still many more breakthroughs

334

needed to make this commercially

viable in a way that is competitive

335

with these other energy sources.

336

, be it nuclear, be it coal or

natural gas cost competitive.

337

I don't mean impact competitive, um,

or solar or wind or hydro, you know,

338

it's, it's still, there's many more

breakthroughs still needed to get there,

339

which means, as you said, leaky, you

know, we, we need to keep doing the things

340

we're doing now to help change the course

of our planetary, you know, trajectory

341

because we can't just hold our breath.

342

This what may be a contributing

benefit that helps us in the future,

343

but it it's still years away.

344

Maybe decades.

345

Yeah.

346

Yeah.

347

Hmm.

348

So we keep talking.

349

We keep doing, so we keep talking.

350

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