Artwork for podcast Close The Loop
NAP Consistency and SEO
Episode 727th September 2021 • Close The Loop • CallSource
00:00:00 00:37:09

Share Episode

Transcripts

Kevin Dieny:

Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm here with a very special guest today, and we're going to be discussing

Kevin Dieny:

NAP consistency, and how it relates to SEO, your organic reach, your

Kevin Dieny:

organic ability to acquire new visitors and maybe new future consumers to

Kevin Dieny:

your business through your website.

Kevin Dieny:

So a reason that we wanted to jump into this topic.

Kevin Dieny:

Is that it comes up so much.

Kevin Dieny:

And I was told this is something really important that people are running into a

lot, which is:

is my name, address, phone.

lot, which is:

The acronym of NAP is my business listing is my business

lot, which is:

information consistent out there.

lot, which is:

And is that impacted by things like dynamic number insertion is

lot, which is:

that impacted by inconsistency?

lot, which is:

It's hard to keep your business consistent everywhere.

lot, which is:

A business is trying to establish itself.

lot, which is:

In the marketplace, it's trying to establish itself online.

lot, which is:

It wants visitors online, who type in their name or type in things

lot, which is:

that are related to them to be able to find their business, their

lot, which is:

services, their products, so they can acquire those future customers.

lot, which is:

That's a huge part of the business.

lot, which is:

A lot of early stage businesses are spending a lot of money in

lot, which is:

advertising, but eventually that goal usually is, oh man, I hope that

lot, which is:

they start coming in organically.

lot, which is:

I hope that the referral side, I hope that our presence in the marketplace

lot, which is:

establishes ourselves well enough that the awareness of our business expands and

lot, which is:

starts bringing in people organically.

lot, which is:

So there's this shift toward more online, I think in every industry.

lot, which is:

And that is driving this force of, we have to take care of our SEO,

lot, which is:

but SEO is not really a quick short term, just do a few things and

lot, which is:

forget about it kind of scenario.

lot, which is:

To help us really dive into this topic with a lot of expertise, our

lot, which is:

special guest is Ryan Lawrence Hill.

lot, which is:

He is the head of lead generation and conversion at Huckabuy.

lot, which is:

Ryan handles all online marketing channels, lead generation, and

lot, which is:

the converting of those leads.

lot, which is:

He has been in digital marketing, primarily SEO for over 15 years.

lot, which is:

So he brings a lot of experience here.

lot, which is:

Aside from hunting, fishing, and barbecuing, helping small businesses

lot, which is:

outrank the big box stores and online search is his passion.

lot, which is:

So you definitely want to pay attention to everything he's got to share here today.

lot, which is:

He's the father of five, also known as a basketball team.

lot, which is:

He enjoys leatherwork, harassing his kids, and building the occasional massive Lego

lot, which is:

set, which I was really impressed by.

lot, which is:

So welcome, Ryan!

Ryan Hill:

Thank you.

Ryan Hill:

Thank you for having me.

Kevin Dieny:

So we're talking again about nap consistency and how it impacts SEO.

Kevin Dieny:

So why is it difficult for business to keep themselves consistent in listings.

Kevin Dieny:

Listings, as in Google My Business, yellow pages, things

Kevin Dieny:

like that, or offline listings.

Kevin Dieny:

Why is it so difficult for businesses to keep themselves consistent in regards to

Kevin Dieny:

their name, address, phone everywhere?

Ryan Hill:

A lot of that has to do with, specifically those different directories

Ryan Hill:

and the way they kind of format their addresses or based off of user input.

Ryan Hill:

So if you're talking about, you know, you've managed your Google, your

Ryan Hill:

Google My Business listing, that's what they call it now, my business.

Ryan Hill:

Local business, but it's changed so many times in the last 10, 15 years.

Ryan Hill:

It could be a small variation like road spelled out or the abbreviation of RD.

Ryan Hill:

And so it's really tough over these hundreds of different directories that

Ryan Hill:

Google pulls all this information from to keep that consistent and the spelling,

Ryan Hill:

or, you know, a customer might say, well, this is their phone number instead.

Ryan Hill:

There's some nasty business practices that go, that go into it with, uh,

Ryan Hill:

we won't get into what those are.

Ryan Hill:

But you know, competing businesses and stuff, they can make suggestions

Ryan Hill:

to these different directories.

Ryan Hill:

So it's really difficult to analyze and keep a really consistent NAP

Ryan Hill:

profile across all of these just simply because of those factors.

Kevin Dieny:

To touch on the SEO aspect, I think a lot of businesses, or maybe

Kevin Dieny:

a lot of business owners, marketers are like, man, SEO is such a black box.

Kevin Dieny:

I kind of know why, but I was curious if you could expand on why isn't the world of

Kevin Dieny:

SEO and how it works and stuff like that.

Kevin Dieny:

Why isn't it just, why doesn't everybody know how the algorithm

Kevin Dieny:

or how the search engines work?

Kevin Dieny:

Why is that something that everyone has struggles with to figure out?

Kevin Dieny:

And everyone's got all these little, crystal ball methods

Kevin Dieny:

of figuring all this out.

Ryan Hill:

You're not wrong.

Ryan Hill:

It's kind of a crystal ball method in that Google keeps that algorithm and

Ryan Hill:

other search engines as well, but when we primarily talk about search engines,

Ryan Hill:

we're of course talking about Google.

Ryan Hill:

It's really difficult to figure out what that algorithm is.

Ryan Hill:

A lot of work, actually, a lot of physical labor, a lot of time,

Ryan Hill:

goes into proper search engine optimization and anyone that you talk.

Ryan Hill:

Whether it's an agency or a freelancer, they're all going to have, like you

Ryan Hill:

said, that crystal ball that they look into and they've they say,

Ryan Hill:

well, okay, this has worked for me.

Ryan Hill:

So I've cracked the Google algorithm.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, I can't tell you how many times, like I'll be on Facebook

Ryan Hill:

or Instagram and be like, Hey, ex-Google employees spills the beans.

Ryan Hill:

Um, something like that.

Ryan Hill:

It's not true.

Ryan Hill:

Those are just, those are hooks to get you to buy what they're doing.

Ryan Hill:

And, the other thing that makes it difficult too, is here you have

Ryan Hill:

small to medium business owners where that time intensive work of

Ryan Hill:

SEO and getting, your link structure, or your content on your website or

Ryan Hill:

back links, or even nap consistency.

Ryan Hill:

Those can get really, really pricey.

Ryan Hill:

I think I was looking at it a couple of weeks ago and the

Ryan Hill:

average cost for a freelance SEO.

Ryan Hill:

Is somewhere between $100 and $150 an hour, I'm like, okay, are we lawyers?

Ryan Hill:

So, so yeah, there's a stigma and, and, you know, honestly, there have been

Ryan Hill:

SEOs in the past and agencies that have really given analysts and optimizers

Ryan Hill:

a bad rap because they'll charge thousands of dollars a month for all

Ryan Hill:

this work, not get any results from it.

Ryan Hill:

And still expect to be paid because they just simply did the work.

Ryan Hill:

And the thing that hooked that, that small to medium business owner into,

Ryan Hill:

to really fork out money that could go elsewhere, was that promise of,

Ryan Hill:

"Hey, I can generate traffic for you.

Ryan Hill:

I can get you out ranking Walmart or Home Depot!"

Ryan Hill:

It's been tough to overcome that.

Ryan Hill:

There's a lot of people out there that, that kind of give it a bad reputation.

Kevin Dieny:

Anytime you're like, okay, I need this.

Kevin Dieny:

I need to either hire this.

Kevin Dieny:

I need to freelance this.

Kevin Dieny:

I need to outsource this.

Kevin Dieny:

It's like, okay, who can I trust?

Kevin Dieny:

SEO changes and it makes it difficult for even the people

Kevin Dieny:

in the industry to keep up on.

Kevin Dieny:

I know that there are big updates that come out and Google

Kevin Dieny:

tries to prepare everyone.

Kevin Dieny:

And so it may change the things that have worked before.

Kevin Dieny:

Exactly because maybe some, the weightings or maybe something in it has changed.

Kevin Dieny:

So, some of the things you have mentioned, which I was hoping to highlight a little

Kevin Dieny:

bit was you mentioned link building, you mentioned SEO has a really big emphasis

Kevin Dieny:

on keywords, and there's the name, address, phone consistency, or even how

Kevin Dieny:

your brand logo looks your images look, your website looks, how fast it is.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of components there.

Kevin Dieny:

There's just so much to do.

Kevin Dieny:

How important is it that they try to stay on top of, let's say their

Kevin Dieny:

nap consistency, their SEO, their keywords, their logos, and their

Kevin Dieny:

site speed, their related content.

Kevin Dieny:

They have the structured content that the whole package of things.

Kevin Dieny:

How important is it that they keep on top of that?

Ryan Hill:

It's key because if you think of when you're a small

Ryan Hill:

to medium business owner, there's always going to be competition

Ryan Hill:

that's going to be pushing their SEO.

Ryan Hill:

You could do SEO for six months and you could rank in the top keywords.

Ryan Hill:

A perfect example is my company Huckabuy.

Ryan Hill:

In December we were ranking for Google algorithm update.

Ryan Hill:

We actually had the top direct answer box and it was kind of an experiment

Ryan Hill:

because we knew it would happen.

Ryan Hill:

But we just wanted to prove it over time, we didn't do anything with it,

Ryan Hill:

we didn't update the page or anything and sure enough, it started crawling

Ryan Hill:

down and it's not that it was crawling down it's that other businesses

Ryan Hill:

were pushing so hard to leapfrog us.

Ryan Hill:

And then, obviously when they go up, then they push us the other rankings down.

Ryan Hill:

It's super important that you have, if you have the ability to either do it yourself,

Ryan Hill:

if you're that business owner that says, Hey, yeah, I can dive into this.

Ryan Hill:

There's a lot of training courses out there for, beginner SEO stuff like that.

Ryan Hill:

There's a lot of plugins for different types of WordPress.

Ryan Hill:

That'll help out with that.

Ryan Hill:

My company Huckabuy, we actually do really specific software in regards,

Ryan Hill:

like you mentioned, the structured data, website speed, but really where they're

Ryan Hill:

going to benefit and where you're going to benefit is if you have someone that's

Ryan Hill:

experienced in SEO for a long time.

Ryan Hill:

Usually that person is familiar with, foreseeing the future

Ryan Hill:

and how that comes out.

Ryan Hill:

So with the Google update that recently happened in June the core

Ryan Hill:

web vitals update, they announced that a year before, And there were

Ryan Hill:

SEO's out there in the industry.

Ryan Hill:

It's like, okay, something big is going to happen.

Ryan Hill:

Google's going to, so we kind of foresee that coming simply

Ryan Hill:

because we're used to it.

Ryan Hill:

We know the times that Google is going to roll out these new algorithms.

Ryan Hill:

They have their own schedule, but yeah, I mean to go back to your

Ryan Hill:

original question, how important is it?

Ryan Hill:

I'm not going to put an importance on one specific thing until we

Ryan Hill:

get later on into the podcast.

Ryan Hill:

But if you have an overall strategy for SEO, it's hugely

Ryan Hill:

important to your online presence.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

That's a really good answer.

Kevin Dieny:

I wouldn't know.

Kevin Dieny:

It's one of those things where I'm like, okay, well, if I have all these

Kevin Dieny:

things to do, which one do I prioritize?

Kevin Dieny:

And I know that they are all sort of important, and I know that some of them

Kevin Dieny:

are easier and harder for someone to do.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say who doesn't really like maybe their website's been handed to them

Kevin Dieny:

from an agency or from a developer.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe they can ask their developer to do some things.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot there.

Kevin Dieny:

So the next thing I want to go into is the customer experience side.

Kevin Dieny:

So, to me, this is my opinion.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't know how it sits is a lot of what's driving SEO changes is the

Kevin Dieny:

customer experience at the end of the day.

Kevin Dieny:

Google or the algorithms are trying to find a way to improve the experience

Kevin Dieny:

from someone searching and then landing on the place that they intended

Kevin Dieny:

or the best place for them to go.

Kevin Dieny:

They're not psychic, they're not perfect, and the algorithms are amazing.

Kevin Dieny:

But, uh, from the business side perspective, to me, a lot of what was

Kevin Dieny:

behind all this technical components of SEO is trying to improve that

Kevin Dieny:

experience when someone hits your page.

Kevin Dieny:

And by experience, I mean, You're reducing that friction.

Kevin Dieny:

You're trying to get out of the way.

Kevin Dieny:

You're trying to make sure they get the page or the place that they

Kevin Dieny:

really wanted and intended to go.

Kevin Dieny:

If they came to for this one thing and you give them something

Kevin Dieny:

else, like a bait and switch.

Kevin Dieny:

Bad idea.

Kevin Dieny:

If Google sees things like the bounce rate is high or, you know, no scrolls

Kevin Dieny:

happening or they could, if they could see like everything about what's happening,

Kevin Dieny:

if they could see the expression on the person's face, or they could hear it

Kevin Dieny:

through the microphone on your phone first and going, oh, this isn't what I wanted.

Kevin Dieny:

They would kill for that.

Kevin Dieny:

And so I've looked at a lot of SEO at the end of the day, I'm usually

Kevin Dieny:

like, there's a lot going on here, but let me try to simplify this.

Kevin Dieny:

Is this better for the end user in the end?

Kevin Dieny:

And that's a lot of what I, I get to.

Kevin Dieny:

Cause if I put all these, if I jam pack my article with keywords, but you know,

Kevin Dieny:

it's small font or I can't read it, or if the it's all squished together or

Kevin Dieny:

something's off about it on the page, all these things pop up and get in my way.

Kevin Dieny:

The experience there is just not going to be ideal.

Kevin Dieny:

So if you could talk a little bit about how SEO and customer

Kevin Dieny:

experience, fold together?

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Hill:

And I'm glad you brought that up too, because one of the things that I've been

Ryan Hill:

saying for years, and this is going to be, this is going to be a tough pill

Ryan Hill:

to swallow for the business owners is that Google actually does not, they

Ryan Hill:

don't give a crap about your business.

Ryan Hill:

They don't give a crap about your website.

Ryan Hill:

They just don't care.

Ryan Hill:

Google takes the approach of, we care about our user.

Ryan Hill:

We care about giving the user what they want.

Ryan Hill:

So Kevin, like you said, it's how fast is your website load?

Ryan Hill:

If Google goes in and sees that, Hey, you're ranking for a page about, I

Ryan Hill:

don't know, cigar boxes and you click on that link and it goes to wine sellers.

Ryan Hill:

Well, Google sees that too.

Ryan Hill:

So they've programmed their bots to act, to emulate, how a human would

Ryan Hill:

interact with your website and score your website based off of that.

Ryan Hill:

So thinking about the fact that Google doesn't care about your website, if you

Ryan Hill:

care, how your users interact with your website, you're on the right track.

Ryan Hill:

That's the first, that's really the first step.

Ryan Hill:

Having loads and loads of content that is keyword stuffed.

Ryan Hill:

Okay.

Ryan Hill:

Well, yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Google does need to come in and understand what your websites about,

Ryan Hill:

but that's just one small thing.

Ryan Hill:

If it's too confusing, if it's overdone, if the font is too

Ryan Hill:

small, I mean, we're going back to, we're going back 10, 15 years ago.

Ryan Hill:

Um, there was a tactic, and it was called ghosting where we would keyword

Ryan Hill:

stuff the background of a website and then put it as the same color.

Ryan Hill:

So it would be white keywords against a white background.

Ryan Hill:

So Google's bots would go in and be like, holy cow, look at all this content.

Ryan Hill:

Now they've gotten smart and they realized that, that's a black hat tactic

Ryan Hill:

of manipulating the Google bots is where, okay, there's all this content

Ryan Hill:

there, but the user can't see it.

Ryan Hill:

You really, really gotta be careful with that.

Ryan Hill:

But I think the biggest point to take away is that yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Care about how your user interacts with your website.

Ryan Hill:

Like you brought up bounce rate.

Ryan Hill:

Why are they bouncing?

Ryan Hill:

Why are they going to your website?

Ryan Hill:

And then leaving soon without scrolling, without clicking.

Ryan Hill:

And that's where you need that SEO guy to go in and analyze.

Ryan Hill:

How long are they there before they leave?

Ryan Hill:

Are they reading, what information do you have above the fold?

Ryan Hill:

There's so many different aspects of it.

Ryan Hill:

And then we get into like video and the interaction of

Ryan Hill:

video and how well that works.

Ryan Hill:

Whether it's on YouTube or whether it's on your website.

Ryan Hill:

If you have a product that, you're selling and you have a video of there, chances are

Ryan Hill:

you're going to get more video views than people actually reading the description

Ryan Hill:

of the product, because I don't know, people are lazy, they don't want to read.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

So why is it important then?

Kevin Dieny:

You hit on it really well.

Kevin Dieny:

Why it's important for, search engines to understand the business

Kevin Dieny:

well, to see what's happening on the website to see consumers hitting the

Kevin Dieny:

website or having a good experience.

Kevin Dieny:

But maybe from like the, specifically from the consumer side or the visitor side to

Kevin Dieny:

a business's page, why does it matter that that business do some of the SEO elements?

Kevin Dieny:

And how does it help the end user if a business does have NAP consistency,

Kevin Dieny:

meaning their name, the address, the phone is consistent and it's

Kevin Dieny:

spelled right and it's prominent or is featured as part of that?

Ryan Hill:

Any time you're looking at capturing traffic from another

Ryan Hill:

website and bringing them to yours, that's where it gets really, really

Ryan Hill:

important for that consistency.

Ryan Hill:

Just so there's less confusion on the customer end and it improves the user

Ryan Hill:

experience when they get to your website.

Ryan Hill:

Okay.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, this is exactly the company that I was looking for and NAP consistency

Ryan Hill:

actually, Kevin, you brought this up before, even a logo, if your logo

Ryan Hill:

is different on another website and they're like, this is not the company

Ryan Hill:

that I wanted to interact with.

Ryan Hill:

And so they'll just bounce right out.

Kevin Dieny:

One thing that you have mentioned, there's a lot of listings.

Kevin Dieny:

You mentioned hundreds and I know that there's probably maybe even more, but

Kevin Dieny:

for a business in a specific industry or a little more niche, are there listings

Kevin Dieny:

that are important from a backlink perspective, or even just from authority

Kevin Dieny:

or from the idea that these listings are better for certain business types?

Kevin Dieny:

Like maybe the medical industry or plumbers or roofers.

Kevin Dieny:

Are there some industry listing services or are generic ones like Google My

Kevin Dieny:

Business that are really important that some businesses may be like,

Kevin Dieny:

I don't know if I could do 300, but maybe if I can pick the top, I don't

Kevin Dieny:

know, 20 or something, I'll just try to stay consistent in the top ones.

Kevin Dieny:

Is that an okay strategy?

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Ryan Hill:

You're not going to get as much benefit out of that strategy, but definitely your

Ryan Hill:

Google listing, simply because someone could do a voice search for your company.

Ryan Hill:

And if your Google listing isn't properly filled out, it's going

Ryan Hill:

to give them wrong information.

Ryan Hill:

Or navigating to that specific location.

Ryan Hill:

Obviously Google maps is the most widely used...

Ryan Hill:

platform.

Ryan Hill:

That's, that's the word I was looking for.

Ryan Hill:

When you're talking about bringing customers to your physical business,

Ryan Hill:

even your website as well, but for local businesses, like you said,

Ryan Hill:

plumbers, or doctor's offices, definitely your Google profile.

Ryan Hill:

There are some other top ones that different other directories

Ryan Hill:

will pull information from.

Ryan Hill:

So like yellow pages, Yelp is a big one.

Ryan Hill:

Angie's list, which is now Angie.

Ryan Hill:

And there's a lot of them too, that you have to pay to be on.

Ryan Hill:

So that's one of the things that you'll want to look for as well.

Ryan Hill:

Maybe it's a less work to get into these free ones, like Google,

Ryan Hill:

like yellow pages or super pages.

Ryan Hill:

Whereas, as a business you have to pay to be on platforms like

Ryan Hill:

Angie's list, the user it's free, but the business you have to pay on.

Ryan Hill:

It might be different anyway, there's, there's charges to some of them.

Ryan Hill:

So you'll want to take that into consideration and another thing

Ryan Hill:

too, there are companies out there that do NAP syndication.

Ryan Hill:

And when I say NAP syndication, you can hire a company that will go out and

Ryan Hill:

submit your business information to all these directories for just a monthly fee.

Ryan Hill:

So that's, that's another option that you have as well.

Kevin Dieny:

Would you place PR, I don't know, companies that rolled

Kevin Dieny:

their citations or roll the blasts out around and social media possibly

Kevin Dieny:

in the same category as listings, or is that a totally different beast?

Ryan Hill:

it depends on kind of the platform, but when you have a business,

Ryan Hill:

that's on say like Facebook, you can have a business page on Facebook that

Ryan Hill:

has the address and phone number.

Ryan Hill:

So yeah, that falls into, like you said, the citation and to those

Ryan Hill:

listening, a citation is that signal of the name, address, and phone

Ryan Hill:

number, that business information that's coming from another directory.

Ryan Hill:

A lot like a back link, but we in the industry called them citations.

Ryan Hill:

You'll get a citation from Facebook.

Ryan Hill:

It's not going to be social.

Ryan Hill:

It'll be a business because Google will pick up on that.

Ryan Hill:

Same with other platforms like LinkedIn.

Ryan Hill:

Now you're posting on those and you get an interaction from a

Ryan Hill:

post and it goes to your website.

Ryan Hill:

Okay.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, that's kind of a social, you can even get an easy citation from YouTube

Ryan Hill:

and that's like the biggest domain authority citation that you can get.

Ryan Hill:

If you just put your business name, address, and phone number in your

Ryan Hill:

company description on YouTube.

Ryan Hill:

So super easy to get that one.

Ryan Hill:

And those are free.

Ryan Hill:

So I'm not sure if that answered your question or not actually....

Kevin Dieny:

No, it does because I think the idea that, okay, I have to

Kevin Dieny:

manage my listings could feel a little bit like this is a daunting task.

Kevin Dieny:

And like you said, there are services that can help you.

Kevin Dieny:

I know we use a service that, that we put in our information in one

Kevin Dieny:

place and it goes and make sure it's updated in all these other sources.

Kevin Dieny:

And it tells us like, okay, you're updated in hundreds of these places with this.

Kevin Dieny:

So you update it once and then it goes out to everywhere and those things are paid.

Kevin Dieny:

And it could take maybe a couple of days to update it at the beginning.

Kevin Dieny:

But is it something that has to be watched every week, every

Kevin Dieny:

day, every month, every year?

Kevin Dieny:

How often do you think something like this would have to be updated

Kevin Dieny:

for a business or is it just every time they're like, you know what?

Kevin Dieny:

We changed our logo.

Kevin Dieny:

We got to go through and update all our things.

Kevin Dieny:

How, how much of a burden?

Ryan Hill:

That's the, that's the daunting task.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Honestly I would suggest anywhere from a month to a quarter, just go in and review

Ryan Hill:

what your business shows up on, where it shows up, the accuracy of the information.

Ryan Hill:

And once again, like you said, Kevin, a lot of companies will

Ryan Hill:

hire other companies to do that.

Ryan Hill:

Like Localeze is the name of a company and I'm not trying

Ryan Hill:

to name drop here or anything.

Ryan Hill:

These are just companies that I know.

Ryan Hill:

There's another company out there, site citation builder pro.

Ryan Hill:

I've known personally those guys for years.

Ryan Hill:

And the thing that you really want to be careful of too, is that when you

Ryan Hill:

sign up for those services, yes, they'll get your name into those directories.

Ryan Hill:

However, when you stop paying for it, then your name's going to be removed

Ryan Hill:

or your information is going to be removed or it's going to be changed.

Ryan Hill:

I've seen some dirty tactics with some companies it's pretty nasty.

Kevin Dieny:

Wow.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, I didn't think about that aspect of it.

Kevin Dieny:

They can help get it started, it keeps them around, but

Kevin Dieny:

not for the right reasons.

Kevin Dieny:

Like, oh man, I'm afraid to cancel it now.

Kevin Dieny:

And that's never a really good thing.

Kevin Dieny:

So let's pivot again a little bit toward the dynamic elements.

Kevin Dieny:

Something that I remember from years ago, anytime someone ends up on your

Kevin Dieny:

webpage and you change the page in any way, it was looked at as a bad idea,

Kevin Dieny:

a bad thing, Google doesn't want you to, okay, I'll come here, and then all

Kevin Dieny:

of a sudden, the whole page changes.

Kevin Dieny:

Cause they're trying to get you to click on an ad or something or trying

Kevin Dieny:

to get you to go somewhere deeper in the site or they cover the page and links.

Kevin Dieny:

I know in the past dynamically altering a page in any way was seen as a bad idea.

Kevin Dieny:

So is there anything you'd want to tell us or share about that?

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Actually Google's come out in the last couple of years and

Ryan Hill:

depending on how you dynamically change that page is good or bad.

Ryan Hill:

So in the aspect of what you were saying, if I'm coming to once again,

Ryan Hill:

eluding to the, the cigar box, but going to a wine cellar example, that's bad.

Ryan Hill:

If you're going to a page and all of a sudden you want to see these and

Ryan Hill:

then you see something different, Google's going to penalize you for that.

Ryan Hill:

They'll penalize you for it.

Ryan Hill:

Now, it might not be a manual action, but their bots will go in and be

Ryan Hill:

like, eh, this is kind of shady.

Ryan Hill:

Actually, this is a good segue into dynamic number insertion or what

Ryan Hill:

we're going to refer to as DNI.

Ryan Hill:

There's also something called dynamic rendering.

Ryan Hill:

This is something my company specializes in where it takes your website.

Ryan Hill:

It serves that form of your website into, in flat HTML.

Ryan Hill:

The Google bots come in, they see all your content.

Ryan Hill:

They get a deeper crawl because a lot of websites right now are JavaScript heavy.

Ryan Hill:

And that JavaScript actually interferes with the Google HTML bot.

Ryan Hill:

It takes a lot more resources.

Ryan Hill:

And so Google says, okay, we have to use a rendering bot, we are

Ryan Hill:

only able to crawl this much.

Ryan Hill:

That's what we call Google's crawl budget.

Ryan Hill:

So when you're able to give them all this content, now we consider that

Ryan Hill:

dynamic rendering because you're serving a version of your website to

Ryan Hill:

Google that the customer doesn't see.

Ryan Hill:

However, that version is exactly the same version that a customer would.

Ryan Hill:

So there's no changes on the website or anything like that.

Ryan Hill:

Now, when you get into dynamically changing content, say like phone

Ryan Hill:

numbers, that's a little bit different.

Ryan Hill:

Because you're talking about a customer seeing, they might be coming from a

Ryan Hill:

Google ad and then go to your website.

Ryan Hill:

And the phone number of up in the header changes from your actual phone

Ryan Hill:

number to one that you want to be able to track calls from Google ads.

Ryan Hill:

So that's different than dynamic rendering.

Ryan Hill:

That's just dynamically changing a little tiny piece and Google has a baseline

Ryan Hill:

of what percentage of your content changes, where it's acceptable or not?

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, that's interesting.

Kevin Dieny:

When we ran into this, we have a tool for dynamic number insertion,

Kevin Dieny:

and the whole purpose of it is when people come to the website, we

Kevin Dieny:

serve them a unique phone number.

Kevin Dieny:

And that way we know, this is where they've come from, maybe

Kevin Dieny:

an ad, a campaign, any sort of channel, anything like that.

Kevin Dieny:

And by giving them a unique phone number, when they make the phone call, we're

Kevin Dieny:

able to connect like the two spheres.

Kevin Dieny:

The first sphere, this is all the information we have when

Kevin Dieny:

they came on the website.

Kevin Dieny:

And then the second sphere is everything that took place in that phone call.

Kevin Dieny:

It was mentioned in a previous episode, we drove a ton of traffic to our website,

Kevin Dieny:

which ended up as a ton of phone calls.

Kevin Dieny:

And they're all asking for trampolines and our SDRs on our front line.

Kevin Dieny:

We're like, well, we don't even sell trampolines.

Kevin Dieny:

And it was because there was a keyword that was triggering off

Kevin Dieny:

our ads that was a broad keyword.

Kevin Dieny:

So when it got 'synonymed' with Google, which drove a bunch of traffic or

Kevin Dieny:

people looking to buy trampolines, and we were bidding at a point where

Kevin Dieny:

we were crushing it and getting tons of trampoline calls, but it just

Kevin Dieny:

wasn't driving the right kind of call.

Kevin Dieny:

So we use that information to change our keywords, change our ads, and

Kevin Dieny:

ultimately drive people who were interested in what we did to our website.

Kevin Dieny:

The purpose of DNI, at least the way we push it is yes, it's attribution

Kevin Dieny:

for your phone calls, but it's also going to improve the kinds of people

Kevin Dieny:

you want to bring to your website.

Kevin Dieny:

People who are interested in calling, people who are interested in having

Kevin Dieny:

that more intimate experience with the business, by picking up the phone.

Kevin Dieny:

Or, for tracking web forms or chats or people who are in that lower

Kevin Dieny:

funnel, ready to convert stage and understanding them better.

Kevin Dieny:

And that helps us understand the middle and the top of the funnel and helps us

Kevin Dieny:

drive better things all down the road, but there is a dynamic component to it.

Kevin Dieny:

And the phone number is swapping out.

Kevin Dieny:

And when we ran into people asking us, well, if you're swapping the

Kevin Dieny:

phone, the P and the NAP consistency, like, are we losing a third?

Kevin Dieny:

Or what impact is that having?

Kevin Dieny:

We're working so hard on our SEO and our organic presence is

Kevin Dieny:

this completely sidelining us?

Kevin Dieny:

And we were like, well, we don't know the crystal ball.

Kevin Dieny:

We don't know how Google is looking at this.

Kevin Dieny:

And so we made a change of, any time a crawler, a bot, just like you mentioned

Kevin Dieny:

with your dynamic website replacement and flattening tool, anytime the crawler

Kevin Dieny:

hits the site, we don't touch the number.

Kevin Dieny:

But anytime it's a consumer from maybe even specific sources or channels

Kevin Dieny:

or parameter based visits, we will swap that number and we have measured

Kevin Dieny:

this and tracked this and found we're not having any negative....

Kevin Dieny:

in fact, it could be having a positive change.

Kevin Dieny:

But it's one of those things where it's like, oh man, this is

Kevin Dieny:

really hard to measure and track because we're not the end user.

Kevin Dieny:

So is there anything you wanted to add about the DNI element there?

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, actually, I do.

Ryan Hill:

Cause you bring up a good point when Google comes into to scan your website.

Ryan Hill:

DNI is actually a process of adding a JavaScript on there and depending

Ryan Hill:

on where the source is coming from with that user, it switches out

Ryan Hill:

to that specific source number.

Ryan Hill:

That's tied to it in say like your system, but when Google comes

Ryan Hill:

in, they do see that Javascript.

Ryan Hill:

But they also see the number that's that your actual phone number that's still

Ryan Hill:

coded into your website, just because that JavaScript masks, that phone number

Ryan Hill:

with another one for the user doesn't mean that Google isn't reading it doesn't

Ryan Hill:

mean that that nap consistency is gone because that phone number is still

Ryan Hill:

embedded in the code of your website.

Ryan Hill:

So you're not losing anything there.

Ryan Hill:

And I really like how you touched on the fact that you were able to

Ryan Hill:

isolate a problem with your paid channel based off of the phone

Ryan Hill:

number that was attached to that.

Ryan Hill:

And it didn't necessarily affect your other channels too.

Ryan Hill:

And you didn't, from what I understand, you didn't lose any

Ryan Hill:

rankings or anything in SEO.

Kevin Dieny:

At least not.

Kevin Dieny:

We did with the trampoline crowd.

Ryan Hill:

Oh, well, yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

A lot of people it's like, do I want to sit down and research for

Kevin Dieny:

two hours to see if a company is telling me the truth about what their tool isn't

Kevin Dieny:

going to impact SEO, or it's not going to impact my load times on my site.

Kevin Dieny:

Yes, it may be adding another request.

Kevin Dieny:

Yes, it may be adding JavaScript to my site.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot there.

Kevin Dieny:

And earlier you mentioned, there's a lot of things that business should be doing.

Kevin Dieny:

Do you have any quick wins or suggestions or priorities for small, medium businesses

Kevin Dieny:

on things they should pay attention to.

Kevin Dieny:

Things they could do to get some wins or to at least get them going

Kevin Dieny:

in the right direction with SEO?

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Obviously if you're a local business, the first thing would

Ryan Hill:

be to manage your Google profile.

Ryan Hill:

It's like a social platform.

Ryan Hill:

You'll definitely want to add pictures, images, posts, keep it active,

Ryan Hill:

request that people leave reviews.

Ryan Hill:

If you think of the Google listing as a separate entity of your website,

Ryan Hill:

but, it drives traffic to your website or it drives phone calls.

Ryan Hill:

There's a lot behind that dashboard that Google can do.

Ryan Hill:

They can show you how many driving directions you've gotten,

Ryan Hill:

which to me is a conversion.

Ryan Hill:

That's a person walking in your door.

Ryan Hill:

They can tell you how many phone calls you've got, how many phone calls you've

Ryan Hill:

missed, from someone calling off of that.

Ryan Hill:

So it's really important to keep that up to date, keep it active.

Ryan Hill:

Have people leave reviews on there.

Ryan Hill:

Google listings, act differently in website rankings than just normal search,

Ryan Hill:

because it's about user interaction.

Ryan Hill:

Don't, don't worry about bad reviews.

Ryan Hill:

I mean, worry about bad reviews from their user aspect of it.

Ryan Hill:

But even a bad review is valuable in Google's eyes because it means that

Ryan Hill:

someone is interacting with your business and if there's anything to take away

Ryan Hill:

from this, is if you can get anyone to interact with your business, whether

Ryan Hill:

it be on Google, whether it be from Google search or whether it be from

Ryan Hill:

like your map listing or your business listing, that's going to bump your

Ryan Hill:

position more so than your customers.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say a more advanced user who may want to use a tool like

Kevin Dieny:

Google optimize, or they have a tool, that helps them run like an AB test

Kevin Dieny:

or something like that on their site.

Kevin Dieny:

On-page stuff that, that that business may want to be testing.

Kevin Dieny:

What is something that you'd say this would be, if there's

Kevin Dieny:

everything on a page that I would test, I would test this one first.

Kevin Dieny:

Or is there anything that stands out that you'd be like, if a

Kevin Dieny:

business is wondering if it should change something on its website.

Kevin Dieny:

Is there anything you may want to suggest a business pay a little bit

Kevin Dieny:

more attention to than something else?

Ryan Hill:

Absolutely.

Ryan Hill:

The color.

Ryan Hill:

I know that.

Ryan Hill:

I know that sounds weird as it really does, but there've been multiple

Ryan Hill:

studies, and it being proven.

Ryan Hill:

I love Google Optimize because what that does is it allows you, you don't have to

Ryan Hill:

make physical changes on your website.

Ryan Hill:

You can go into Google optimize and say, okay, 50% of this

Ryan Hill:

traffic that's coming from paid.

Ryan Hill:

I want this call to action button to be bright orange instead of pink

Ryan Hill:

or green or something like that.

Ryan Hill:

And so it really, really allows for that, that AB test to see what is successful

Ryan Hill:

then when you can prove the concept or...

Ryan Hill:

Disprove, whatever concept.

Ryan Hill:

So the marketers out there and the website developers and SEO guys.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

Use Google, optimize, change a button color, move the video

Ryan Hill:

up or move the headline down, simple little things like that.

Ryan Hill:

Google also alluded to, if you're using Google optimize that they're going to

Ryan Hill:

consider that a ranking factor as well, because then your testing users out and

Ryan Hill:

how they interact with your website to make it a better experience for them.

Ryan Hill:

So, absolutely, dealing with any AB testing platform like HubSpot or Google

Ryan Hill:

Optimize, just try a color first.

Ryan Hill:

You'd be surprised.

Kevin Dieny:

That's, that's exciting for me because that's actually not too tough.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't have to get into a think tank discussion and ideation process to rethink

Kevin Dieny:

my headline or are my sentences combining the right keywords in the right order.

Kevin Dieny:

Are they high enough?

Kevin Dieny:

Are you using the right header elements?

Kevin Dieny:

There is a lot...

Kevin Dieny:

I have gone through in the past where I'm like, I don't know if all

Kevin Dieny:

this work is necessarily necessary, but I know that, I'm just going to

Kevin Dieny:

keep up with what I know are best practices and try to keep it going.

Kevin Dieny:

What is funny is Google Optimize, google's own dynamic tracking, the things we're

Kevin Dieny:

talking about with some experimentation with flattening the site, a lot of

Kevin Dieny:

these are using dynamic elements.

Kevin Dieny:

But they're doing them, like you said, there's a right way and a wrong way.

Kevin Dieny:

And so knowing that businesses are following the right way or

Kevin Dieny:

knowing what is the right way?

Kevin Dieny:

If it's a product by Google, they're probably doing it the

Kevin Dieny:

right way because it's associating with their other products.

Kevin Dieny:

There's just so much in this black box of SEO that people struggle with

Kevin Dieny:

unraveling and nap consistency, and everyone's trying to get their SEO up

Kevin Dieny:

cause they consider it, free, earned traffic, but it does take a lot of work.

Kevin Dieny:

So, just to tie it up at the end, is there anything else you wanted to add?

Kevin Dieny:

Something that you thought along the way, you're like, oh, I got to mention

Kevin Dieny:

this, but if you still remember, is there anything else you wanted to add to this?

Ryan Hill:

The only other thing I think that I would add is, if you could

Ryan Hill:

pay attention to the Google algorithm updates and what they focus on.

Ryan Hill:

You'll notice a shift in the last few years that everything's

Ryan Hill:

going towards mobile.

Ryan Hill:

So depending on what kind of a business you are.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah.

Ryan Hill:

If you're a plumber, I pretty much guarantee you that everybody's going

Ryan Hill:

to be looking on their phones, for that plumber that's local to them and even

Ryan Hill:

coming through their Google listing.

Ryan Hill:

So really focused on the mobile side of it.

Ryan Hill:

And I'm not saying the desktop site isn't important because it definitely is.

Ryan Hill:

But if you can determine where the majority of your traffic is

Ryan Hill:

coming from and optimize towards that, that's, that's a quick win.

Ryan Hill:

It's definitely a quick win.

Ryan Hill:

If you can rank higher on mobile results than you can desktop.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, the devices is a whole other element to this.

Kevin Dieny:

And I think good mentioning it, something that definitely didn't get brought up.

Kevin Dieny:

So I want to tie up a little bit of this episode.

Kevin Dieny:

The things that I think stood out to me, where yes, SEO is kind of a

Kevin Dieny:

black box, but there are definitely some things businesses can do to

Kevin Dieny:

make sure that they do rank higher.

Kevin Dieny:

You are competing a lot of the time, like Ryan mentioned against your

Kevin Dieny:

competitors against other people vying for the same thing in the same space.

Kevin Dieny:

So some industries may be less competitive than others, but at the

Kevin Dieny:

end of the day, making sure that your business communicates trust for that

Kevin Dieny:

end user, for that consumer, that you provide a better experience, making

Kevin Dieny:

sure your name, your business logo, your address, that they are, up-to-date

Kevin Dieny:

consistent your phone number, right?

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of places to put a phone number.

Kevin Dieny:

Google my business has at least three phone number of

Kevin Dieny:

slots for you to put it in.

Kevin Dieny:

So if you want to drop in a tracking number there and then your main number,

Kevin Dieny:

you can do all those things, right.

Kevin Dieny:

All of that works together to provide a better experience for your consumer.

Kevin Dieny:

They want to get there.

Kevin Dieny:

The mobile aspect, paying attention to how my visitors are getting to my site.

Kevin Dieny:

What are they interested in?

Kevin Dieny:

Not baiting, switching.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of services that can help you do a lot of this.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe take a little time to, to evaluate that.

Kevin Dieny:

There's so much out there, which is why this can be so confusing and so

Kevin Dieny:

difficult for a lot of businesses.

Kevin Dieny:

At the end of the day, I think if you do just pay a little bit attention toward

Kevin Dieny:

making sure your business is consistent.

Kevin Dieny:

That you are putting yourself out there in the listings, especially

Kevin Dieny:

the ones that maybe you've, you've heard your consumers say, I keep going

Kevin Dieny:

to the site and finding you there.

Kevin Dieny:

If you haven't gone there and made sure that your listing is

Kevin Dieny:

accurate, maybe you should do that.

Kevin Dieny:

And then you're by ranking higher in SEO, you're driving more business,

Kevin Dieny:

more revenue for your business.

Kevin Dieny:

SEO is a long term strategy.

Kevin Dieny:

I, the way I look at it.

Ryan Hill:

Yeah, it is.

Ryan Hill:

It's not an instant win either.

Ryan Hill:

It's it's definitely long term.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot going on, but I know you can do it.

Kevin Dieny:

I would encourage you all to, like Ryan said, pay attention to

Kevin Dieny:

some of the listings, making sure things are going in the reviews.

Kevin Dieny:

I've heard it time and time again, and even responding to

Kevin Dieny:

those reviews is so important.

Kevin Dieny:

So thank you, Ryan, for helping us talk about this really, a really

Kevin Dieny:

interesting topic of NAP consistency.

Ryan Hill:

Taboo subject?

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

It's a tough subject.

Kevin Dieny:

It's tough when you don't know the actual algorithm and science that's

Kevin Dieny:

going on in the background, but through experimentation and by what

Kevin Dieny:

we're being told, we just, we kind of have to follow the trend that's

Kevin Dieny:

being set and it's changing, the updates come out and it's changing.

Kevin Dieny:

SEO experts are like you said top dollar nowadays, and that could

Kevin Dieny:

be hard to find and hard to find someone who actually knows what

Kevin Dieny:

they're doing and is performance minded, like you had alluded to.

Kevin Dieny:

So, thank you and appreciate

Kevin Dieny:

- Ryan Hill: Yeah, it's, it's definitely

Kevin Dieny:

It's rare that I get to talk this, this nerdy stuff with people.

Kevin Dieny:

So thank you.

Kevin Dieny:

I love the nerdy topic, so I appreciate your time, and

Kevin Dieny:

everybody thank you for listening to our episode and we'll see you again.

Links