Transcripts
Hey Megan, let's do a podcast. Great idea. What
Speaker:should we talk about?
Speaker:In my work, I get to work and talk with and hang out
Speaker:with some of the most interesting people in our field. And what I love about
Speaker:this podcast is that an extended community gets to listen in on a few
Speaker:of those conversations. Today I get to talk to Joy VerPlanck of
Speaker:JVP Creative Solutions. And this has been
Speaker:a conversation long in the making, over
Speaker:several years of talking about these things and this program
Speaker:and whatnot. And Joy, you've worked in some very high-stakes
Speaker:environments, like the military and public safety, where behavior
Speaker:under pressure really, really matters. And
Speaker:you've also worked in global leadership consultancies, several
Speaker:high-profile, like, thought-leader clients, and
Speaker:through a lot of your work there are these
Speaker:through-lines of behavior science, adult learning principles, and just
Speaker:some plain-old, straight-up talk and
Speaker:communication and being very straightforward. Joy,
Speaker:welcome. What's keeping you busy these days? Hi,
Speaker:thanks for having me. I am working in a lot
Speaker:of cool aspects of Learning and Development, and one of
Speaker:the things that's keeping me busy and excited these days is working
Speaker:in IP development — intellectual property. So I'm working with
Speaker:a lot of thought leaders who have big wonderful ideas
Speaker:that haven't really been
Speaker:detailed well. Maybe it's
Speaker:kind of chaotic and messy in their heads, but they
Speaker:know that they've got something teachable, and learnable, and scalable,
Speaker:and they just need a little bit of help.
Speaker:And producing some cool frameworks and learning solutions.
Speaker:That's super cool. And I know I've met a few of those thought leaders that
Speaker:you're working with and you're right, they're brilliant. So I love
Speaker:how you're shaping that with them. That's super — that sounds like just
Speaker:the best job ever. Yeah, it's pretty not bad.
Speaker:So Joy, "behavioral...." "Behavioral" is all the rage, right?
Speaker:And I'm totally fascinated, whether it's
Speaker:behavioral science or then we get digging in deeper to subfields like
Speaker:behavioral economics and behavioral political science and just
Speaker:how this all explains real human
Speaker:behavior, how do we make decisions, and how
Speaker:does this transform how we think about
Speaker:fields that have historically thought of human beings as
Speaker:rational actors. Which, when I say that, "human beings as
Speaker:rational actors," seems like laughably obvious, and yet that's
Speaker:the history of some of these fields. And so this makes
Speaker:so much sense, right?
Speaker:As learning designers though, what's interesting, I find, is that we're in the business
Speaker:of shaping behavior, but we don't always ground what
Speaker:we're doing in behavioral science in really explicit ways. And there's
Speaker:some implicit ways that we do, but maybe not
Speaker:intentionally. So I'm really, really curious
Speaker:how behavioral science can sharpen how we
Speaker:design learning experiences. So I'd love to dig in
Speaker:today on what behavioral science can offer
Speaker:learning and development professionals who actually want their work
Speaker:to change behavior, not just transfer information.
Speaker:So let's get started. What the heck is behavioral science
Speaker:and how is it valuable? Sure,
Speaker:it's a mashup. It's this big awesome mashup of
Speaker:fun, related things, like anthropology,
Speaker:and how we developed our brains as humans
Speaker:and humans who interact with each other, and
Speaker:neuroscience, and psychology. And that
Speaker:mashup has been used in all
Speaker:aspects of the way we interact with the world.
Speaker:So marketers use it all the time to get us
Speaker:interested in buying something. So it just makes perfect
Speaker:sense that learning designers could use this to get people interested
Speaker:in learning and applying something. So if
Speaker:it's good enough to get us to buy a Big Arch, which is the new
Speaker:McDonald's burger that just went viral for the way
Speaker:that the CEO ate it, which I'm sure was a
Speaker:marketing scheme, then
Speaker:we should be able to use similar techniques and bring
Speaker:behavioral science into the way we do L&D. That's
Speaker:so super cool. So how do you see
Speaker:this shaping real-world — I mean it's one thing for, to
Speaker:buy hamburgers — but like how do you see this shaping real-world
Speaker:decisions, how we make them at scale and organizations, in policy, in
Speaker:high-stakes environments, day to day on
Speaker:the job? Right? Well,
Speaker:behavioral science influences everything about why we
Speaker:do what we do, the way we act, the way we behave and the decisions
Speaker:that we make that lead up to the moment of action
Speaker:or inaction. If there is a
Speaker:barrier to somebody doing something that's really important
Speaker:that they need to do, simply using behavioral science to
Speaker:remove a barrier could allow the flow of information
Speaker:to go from "I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about it" to "I have
Speaker:to do this" or "I absolutely should not
Speaker:do this." We are... we have
Speaker:the benefit of metacognition and we can think about our thinking, and sometimes
Speaker:that gets in the way and, and we might just need
Speaker:to look to our left and right and see that it's okay that we make
Speaker:this move. So when we understand
Speaker:the different things that contribute
Speaker:to all of the ways we make decisions, we can influence it in
Speaker:good and healthy and meaningful ways.
Speaker:Not just hamburgers. Yeah, not just hamburgers.
Speaker:Well, I wrote — or "I wrote," I didn't write it — I read it
Speaker:a few years ago, the book Nudge by Cass Sunstein and
Speaker:Richard Thaler, who was actually my macroeconomics professor
Speaker:in business school. And I'm so
Speaker:glad he doesn't remember me because I did horribly in that class. But anyways, I
Speaker:can still, whenever I read
Speaker:that or hear him on a podcast, I think about that class and remember where
Speaker:I sit. But that really got a
Speaker:lot of conversation into the general population
Speaker:around behavioral science, specifically behavioral economics. And I
Speaker:wonder if you could share just some of
Speaker:the hallmark behavioral science concepts that
Speaker:might help a
Speaker:learning and development professional get engaged and started.
Speaker:Like what are some of the.... There's so much out there; what are two or
Speaker:three?
Speaker:Yeah, one of my, one of my favorites, and I think about it all the
Speaker:time because it's influences me at the grocery store
Speaker:and in choosing learning solutions
Speaker:and everything, is the paradox of choice, also called the
Speaker:tyranny of choice. And
Speaker:it's basically that we like
Speaker:choice, we like to have the agency to
Speaker:make a decision about something, but we're going to be happier with that decision
Speaker:if we have less to choose from. Totally
Speaker:counterintuitive. Keep going. But if you
Speaker:think about if you, if you go to the store and you want to buy
Speaker:jeans and you only have three pairs of jeans and they're extremely different —
Speaker:you know, this pair has bell bottoms and this pair is high waist and this
Speaker:pair is tie dyed, whatever — then
Speaker:the one that you pick is so significantly different from the
Speaker:other two that you'll be more pleased with your decision when you
Speaker:go home than if you tried on 15 pairs of jeans and they were
Speaker:all quite similar and then you might second guess. So this is, you know,
Speaker:it's good for marketing. But also think about how many times a day we have
Speaker:to make decisions. And when we're learning something, if you're
Speaker:given a test, a quiz or whatever, or
Speaker:you're given the choice of how many different classes you
Speaker:could choose from, when it comes time to finish up,
Speaker:you'll feel more satisfied with the one you selected if you've
Speaker:got limited exposure at the front end. So I think paradox of
Speaker:choice is a pretty interesting one to apply beyond the yogurt
Speaker:aisle and into learning and development.
Speaker:So if you're thinking here, right, so I'm thinking about how I might apply this,
Speaker:right? Because we like offering lots of opportunities.
Speaker:But I remember once I did a cafeteria-style learning course, and
Speaker:we wanted to give people the ability to personalize
Speaker:their experience a little bit. So instead of having everybody in the classroom do
Speaker:the same activity, we had six different
Speaker:activities and
Speaker:there was so much — I thought of it in terms of cognitive overload, but
Speaker:now I see it in terms of paradox of choice where there
Speaker:was just so many choices, and it was hard for them to pick. Where if
Speaker:I had maybe just made three choices of which
Speaker:activity to do, that might have
Speaker:made that transition to that activity and people's satisfaction with
Speaker:their choice later on a little bit more concrete. Right, yeah.
Speaker:You just mentioned two different impacts. One, the choice itself
Speaker:becomes easier because you're reducing the cognitive load and all the decisions
Speaker:that have to go on and the biases that happen when we're under
Speaker:pressure, you know, we start to default to
Speaker:what we know, what we think we'll like based on previous experience,
Speaker:or some other different factors. And then, yeah, in the end, I mean,
Speaker:the survey comes around. What do you, what
Speaker:did you think about this? "Oh, I was really happy with this choice because I
Speaker:only have three to choose from." Absolutely. Well, and I think
Speaker:my — yes, I would love people to be thrilled to pieces with their
Speaker:learning experience, but also get something out of it and not be
Speaker:so like, really frustrated with, "oh, I got the wrong choice" kind
Speaker:of thing and have that be a barrier to implementation. We
Speaker:do that all the time when we go to a conference and there's all
Speaker:these different.... How do we choose from the courses that we're going to go to?
Speaker:And then halfway through the course, you start flipping through the program and you go,
Speaker:"should I have picked the one next door?" And suddenly
Speaker:you're focused on, "did I make the right choice?" Instead of, "yeah, this one. This
Speaker:one was clear. I'm in it and I'm learning." So, yeah, that's a
Speaker:good one. Okay,
Speaker:what's another one? Well, nudges. We think
Speaker:of nudges — at least I did when I
Speaker:first came up in the world of instructional design — as something you do
Speaker:after the training and you kind of nudge somebody to re-engage after the
Speaker:spacing has happened so that you can activate that retrieval
Speaker:process in their brain. So you give them a little while and then you
Speaker:say, "hey, don't forget to come back and practice this a little bit more." And
Speaker:that is a nudge. But nudges are really a
Speaker:way to reduce friction. And if
Speaker:you think about nudges and all the different ways people try and
Speaker:make things easier for us to make that next step faster, more
Speaker:streamlined.
Speaker:Netflix does it all the time: "You've just finished Watching this. We've got another one
Speaker:right here for you." Next episode. I don't
Speaker:even have to click the button, right?
Speaker:I don't even have to find the remote! So what if we start doing that
Speaker:in learning and development where you know, we
Speaker:— and applying normative social influence to that as well.
Speaker:Imagine if your LXP has all these different
Speaker:things that people just like you already loved.
Speaker:You know, I mean, on Amazon,
Speaker:it's... they've got that best seller thing there for
Speaker:a reason. That's a nudge of
Speaker:normative social influence. Like we're going to put this right in front of you and
Speaker:provide you with something that's going to make it really easy for you to make
Speaker:this decision. It's all about speeding up our decisions.
Speaker:What I love — this concept, right? Nudges and
Speaker:they exist within an architecture of choices, choice architecture. And how
Speaker:do I, as the designer of
Speaker:an interface or an experience or a decision for
Speaker:others to make, how do I nudge them? Suggest
Speaker:the path that is healthy,
Speaker:useful for them, productive for them, in a way that still gives
Speaker:them agency, right? And that's...
Speaker:they still choose. I
Speaker:haven't reduced the choices they have, but I've made it
Speaker:really easy for them to make a choice that's good — that I might think
Speaker:is good for them, right? I love the example.... And
Speaker:maybe we can figure out some learning-related
Speaker:examples, right? So in the, you know, when you put
Speaker:bananas next to the checkout in a cafeteria, people buy
Speaker:bananas. If you put candy next to the checkout
Speaker:in the grocery store, people buy candy. I would not otherwise
Speaker:buy candy in the grocery store if it wasn't
Speaker:conveniently placed by the cash register, right?
Speaker:And I am a sucker for peanut M&MS. I will just say it, right?
Speaker:And because they're right there, I do not seek them out, right?
Speaker:And so it's part of that architecture. I have the choice.
Speaker:So if we think about, from a learning perspective, what are some of the
Speaker:things we can design
Speaker:in that might help nudge us in a productive direction?
Speaker:Well, to your point, you opt out, you
Speaker:recognize that there is candy right there. And you
Speaker:have — they could even put it in your, you
Speaker:know, in your basket. We're just
Speaker:going to start every basket with a bag of peanut M&MS. You
Speaker:have the ability to take it out and leave it anywhere in the store that
Speaker:you like. That gives you the sense of agency.
Speaker:You still have the autonomy. "This is my choice. I'm going to
Speaker:leave it in here." But they've just made it really
Speaker:easy. So we can do the same thing. We can do the
Speaker:opt out instead of the opt in. Instead of having people
Speaker:proactively seek something. I love it. A few
Speaker:years ago, we built, for the American Spinal Injury Association,
Speaker:their flagship course on how to conduct a
Speaker:particular assessment for spinal cord injured patients. And
Speaker:so we had this flagship course. To certain audiences, they had to pay for it,
Speaker:for certain audiences it was purchased for them or free of charge for them.
Speaker:And that's what they came for. That's what they came to ASIA, the American
Speaker:Spinal Injury Association, that's what they came for.
Speaker:But there were some other programs that ASIA thought would be really, really useful, including
Speaker:the pediatric considerations version and a
Speaker:spasticity assessment that were related, but probably things
Speaker:that people wouldn't seek out. So we just
Speaker:bundled them. If you bought the flagship course, you got the other
Speaker:two, right? And did everybody take them? No,
Speaker:but they had the option. It was right there in their learning plan for them
Speaker:and it was free. So we made it easy for them to get that information.
Speaker:If they had to go hunting through the LMS to find it, you can be
Speaker:darn sure they would never have taken that. Right? well,
Speaker:you know, the whole normative social influence aspect of it could have
Speaker:nudged that a little bit further as well. Okay, so you've now
Speaker:talked about normative social influence, but not yet defined it. I know you have a
Speaker:Decision Lab article on it. What is it?
Speaker:How does it work? How do we use it as a force for good?
Speaker:Yeah, it's basically going along with the norms
Speaker:because, well, you want to be cool, don't you? I want to
Speaker:be cool. I need to... I need help.
Speaker:But that,
Speaker:that's essentially it. When you, when you observe people
Speaker:around you doing somethin, and oftentimes
Speaker:you might look because you're unsure
Speaker:—"might this be a class that I want to take?" "Oh, wow,
Speaker:I mean, most of the people at my level in the organization have already taken
Speaker:it. I guess this is for me." It
Speaker:can also influence how you feel about. "Wow, most people just
Speaker:like me loved this class." As you go into it, you're
Speaker:kind of primed to love it because, well, if I don't, I
Speaker:might be different. What's wrong with me if
Speaker:everybody else just like me took and loved this course
Speaker:and I didn't? You know, that's kind of why
Speaker:a lot of Yelp reviews end up — once you get a lot of
Speaker:five star reviews, you're going to get a lot more five star reviews.
Speaker:I wonder how that connects with like
Speaker:Keller's motivation theories and whatnot around,
Speaker:you know, "people who, people who succeed in this
Speaker:class do these six things" or "people who learn a
Speaker:lot in this learning program are, you know, they're the ones who participate in
Speaker:the discussion boards" and things like that. Is that aligned with
Speaker:normative social influence? Sure, yeah. We are
Speaker:motivated by things that keep us safe and keep us cool
Speaker:in the sense of socially accepted as part of a group of people
Speaker:that we identify with. If our in-group is doing
Speaker:something, it is safe for us to do something similar.
Speaker:So if the norm in an organization becomes,
Speaker:"oh, we all, you haven't taken that class yet? We've all, we've
Speaker:all taken that class." And then somebody is going to
Speaker:be like, "oh my gosh, I'm going to be out. I'm going to become part
Speaker:of the out-group." And so their motivational driver is based
Speaker:on a basic human need to get along in a group.
Speaker:Because we are driven to be accepted by our.... This is,
Speaker:this is like middle school. It is, it's a bit of peer
Speaker:pressure. Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
Speaker:So can we, can we
Speaker:intentionally design this as a way to help
Speaker:people adopt new skills and apply them on the job?
Speaker:Yeah, of course. And actually, applying the
Speaker:skills is interesting. Most — a lot of
Speaker:people in our line of work have heard about social learning,
Speaker:and social learning theory has turned into this whole different idea
Speaker:of, well, "it's in an LMS, if people liked taking the
Speaker:class, then they'll give a thumbs up." And then it's, you know, "you can thumb
Speaker:up somebody else because they took a class and you can congratulate
Speaker:them." And that's social learning. No, it is not. Social learning theory is that
Speaker:we learn by observing other people doing that thing. So you can
Speaker:even just create a
Speaker:normative social influence around application of
Speaker:skills. If you see enough
Speaker:people using that new, you know, ticket
Speaker:system and you go, "well, I guess
Speaker:I have to use this new ticket system. I haven't
Speaker:taken the course yet, but I'm just going to watch somebody else do it." And
Speaker:so you can put people in an environment
Speaker:where they are observing each other, learning
Speaker:and practicing new skills, and accelerate it that way. Yeah,
Speaker:it's all about just looking left and right and seeing what we're all doing.
Speaker:Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Which is hard to do when we
Speaker:work from home because I don't, I don't have anybody left in my left and
Speaker:right. It's a whole other layer, probably for a
Speaker:conversation for a different day, but a whole other layer of what this
Speaker:disaggregated work environment might do
Speaker:here. So
Speaker:I've often heard that people will say one thing
Speaker:and do something different. So maybe they conform
Speaker:publicly, but not in the real world
Speaker:or not privately. Can you talk about what
Speaker:that is first? Because I've seen you mention that, but we haven't talked about
Speaker:it yet today. What is this difference between conforming publicly and
Speaker:privately and what that
Speaker:implies for learning design? Yeah,
Speaker:there's, there's some research that shows that they
Speaker:conform privately too. So even if you go along with the group
Speaker:and say "we all watched the same movie and this is what we
Speaker:got out of it," or "this is what happened in the end" and everybody's saying,
Speaker:"well, you know, so and so got exited"
Speaker:or whatever, so
Speaker:this is how the movie ended, and you watched it and you
Speaker:go, "I don't think that's what I saw." But you observe so many people
Speaker:around you in agreement that you not only
Speaker:conform in that moment and say, "this is what I got out of the learning."
Speaker:"This is what I saw in the movie." "This is what I experienced in this
Speaker:moment." But later on, you'll actually have a different memory that
Speaker:aligns with the norm. So if we're not careful, if
Speaker:we don't invite people to challenge all the time, there is a
Speaker:possibility that people will go along with the norm
Speaker:and misremember, misunderstand something, some component of that learning.
Speaker:So I think it's really important to build in challenges
Speaker:where you answer questions before you
Speaker:can see other people's
Speaker:responses. This is kind of the
Speaker:way we break out of
Speaker:groupthink. In different ways, you can
Speaker:solicit feedback and answers, and you can
Speaker:even create challenges where, you know,
Speaker:everybody's gonna share what they learned; what can you find wrong
Speaker:with it? And
Speaker:make that part of the learning that there's an expectation that
Speaker:you are here to challenge each other. I mean, that is a big time cultural
Speaker:norm and it's not easy to do because it's a lot
Speaker:easier to just go along with the group. But yeah,
Speaker:if you're intentional about soliciting people's
Speaker:input before they have a chance to be influenced by others,
Speaker:then there's a better chance that you'll get
Speaker:real answers no matter what the group is going
Speaker:along with. So it
Speaker:feels like — for a learning & development leader
Speaker:and they're trying, we're trying to shape performance, we're trying to
Speaker:shape leaders, we're trying to shape culture —this can
Speaker:either be, and this by either normative
Speaker:social influence or larger behavioral science, either like a
Speaker:force for good or a force for evil. I mean, should
Speaker:we be worried about it? Should we be using it intentionally? Should we be talking
Speaker:about it? Should we not be talking about it?
Speaker:Yeah, all of those things. Yes, it,
Speaker:it is a force for good or a force for evil.
Speaker:I would say if it comes from a good place and you're genuinely trying to
Speaker:help somebody learn something that's good for them and good for their job,
Speaker:then it's not for evil.
Speaker:Manipulating somebody into
Speaker:becoming a smarter person, becoming more skilled
Speaker:at their job, is that really manipulation or are you just trying to
Speaker:remove a barrier to their optimal performance?
Speaker:I have at one point in my career developed
Speaker:an empathy-based learning solution, like how
Speaker:to teach people how to care about other people. And somebody asked
Speaker:me, like, if you're teaching people how to show that they care,
Speaker:are you potentially helping people manipulate
Speaker:others? And I'm like, by teaching them how to be empathetic? I mean, maybe,
Speaker:but at some point they're going to pretend
Speaker:so much that maybe they'll get good at it, maybe they'll get comfortable with
Speaker:it. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker:I think it's fine. Like all
Speaker:things. There's positives and negatives, right?
Speaker:So, okay, I'm gonna make our lightning round
Speaker:then. A little bit of normative social influence.
Speaker:What's a book that smart people like us and
Speaker:like you might be revved up about?
Speaker:What, what are you reading these days? What's interesting to you?
Speaker:I just finished a book called Good Awkward by Henna
Speaker:Pryor, and it was a great book.
Speaker:It was validating,
Speaker:encouraging, it was strategic and tactical, and
Speaker:there was a little bit of behavioral science in it, but it wasn't overly sciency.
Speaker:It was just a very enjoyable read. I loved it. Oh, that sounds
Speaker:fascinating. Good Awkward. Tell me, what's — I mean, I...
Speaker:there's a whole lot of awkward. So
Speaker:tell me.... It's actually
Speaker:maybe your superpower.
Speaker:Recognize it in the right ways and use it to your
Speaker:strategic advantage.
Speaker:I love it. I love it. Do you fidget
Speaker:while you work? Do you listen to things, do things,
Speaker:eat things? I just kind of like love how people's brains work.
Speaker:Right. I sometimes forget to eat. I'll get stuck in work all day long
Speaker:and forget to eat. And then just — so, no, I'm not
Speaker:that good at that. And I, I'll listen to music in the other
Speaker:room until it stops playing, and then I'll listen to a podcast when I
Speaker:when I need a brain break. And
Speaker:so I, lately I've been into a lot of behavioral science podcasts. I
Speaker:go between the Growth Ready podcast,
Speaker:Adam Grant's podcast, Diary
Speaker:of a CEO. It's just, you know, people
Speaker:talking at me. To you,
Speaker:to you. Right. They're right there with me. It's me.
Speaker:I'm their audience. Podcasts are all the rage these
Speaker:days. Everybody's doing it. You want to be cool, don't you?
Speaker:See how that works? Well, okay, right.
Speaker:Seriously, I, I started this. I didn't want to do a podcast, didn't want to
Speaker:do a podcast, didn't want to do a podcast. Then all of a sudden, all
Speaker:these cool people are doing podcasts. Alright, I should do a podcast. Normative social
Speaker:influence. Joy, thank you. This,
Speaker:as always, has been a fantastic conversation and I always
Speaker:learn something from you. I'm always challenged to
Speaker:be a better learning designer and better leader by talking to you. So thank you
Speaker:so much. Same. Thank you. See you soon.
Speaker:So how'd that go, Megan? I'm so glad we had a chance
Speaker:to re-do that. That was actually the second time we recorded this podcast
Speaker:and usually we don't do that, but a few weeks
Speaker:ago, when Joy and I first got together to to podcast, not only
Speaker:did we go off on a bunch of really fun rabbit holes and tangents and
Speaker:loose ends and stuff — there were a lot of loose ends, and I
Speaker:really wanted to tie them back, but of course, in the middle of it, the
Speaker:guy who's walking the dog shows up and so my head got somewhere else and
Speaker:it was really just good to — I appreciate the patience
Speaker:that Joy had with
Speaker:me in re-recording it. So behavioral
Speaker:science is something that I'm super excited about. It's really,
Speaker:really interesting. Once you start learning about it, you see it everywhere
Speaker:in the world. And so I'm glad to have just a
Speaker:few tidbits and pieces from her here today.
Speaker:And we'll drop the book references
Speaker:that she and I made during this if people want to dig in and do
Speaker:some more. This is Meg Fairchild and Megan
Speaker:Torrance, and this has been a podcast from
Speaker:TorranceLearning. Tangents is the official podcast of
Speaker:TorranceLearning (as though we have an unofficial one). Tangents
Speaker:is hosted by Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance. It's
Speaker:produced by Dean Castile and Meg Fairchild, engineered
Speaker:and edited by Dean Castile with original music
Speaker:also by Dean Castile. This episode was fact
Speaker:checked by Meg Fairchild.
