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The Terminology Survival Guide for Podcast Editors
Episode 94 • 13th June 2024 • Podcast Editors Mastermind • Bryan Entzminger, Carrie Caulfield, Daniel Abendroth, Jennifer Longworth
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Why do LUFS matter more than decibels for your podcast? Unpack the difference and a lot more as we explain the crazy jargon podcast editors need to know.

Episode Notes: https://podcasteditorsmastermind.com/episode/the-terminology-survival-guide-for-podcast-editors

You may not know this, but there's a TON of jargon in the podcasting space - especially for those of us who are involved in producing shows. Sometimes the words we use are clear and sometimes they may have multiple meanings.

Join us for this valuable episode where we discuss confusing and commonly misunderstood words.

But you know us - that's not enough. Almost nobody wins an award for vocabulary. However... if we can translate those words to what's important for our clients, we have a better chance of winning their business.

And that's what we want, isn't it?

To do our jobs well, get paid for it, and have happy clients.

So, let's get to it!

Key Discussion Points

  • Is echo really the problem you're dealing with?
  • Acoustic tiles are ineffective for soundproofing your studio.
  • What matters more in podcasting - LUFS or dB?
  • What's the difference between a producer, engineer, and editor in podcasting?
  • Is dynamic insertion just for ads?

Links And Resources

About Jesse McCune

Jesse is no stranger to the Podcast Editors Mastermind. He's a podcast engineer who also provides training and coaching at tansyasteracademy.com. You should check it out!

Connect with Jesse McCune

Join Us Live!

We stream live to our Facebook page and to YouTube every other week.

Our Editor

This episode of the Podcast Editors Mastermind was edited by Bryan Entzminger. You can find him at TopTierAudio.com if you're interested in talking with him about editing your show.

Be a Guest

If you're a podcast editor, we'd love to see if you'd be a fit for a future episode. Fill out this form to let us know you're interested, and we'll contact you to see if it's a good fit.

Your Yetis Are



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy

Transcripts

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>> How much is that?

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[MUSIC]

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>> Welcome everybody to the Podcast Editor's Mastermind.

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In this episode of Podcast Editor's Mastermind,

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we're going to talk about what these words that we use mean.

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But before we do that, quick second,

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I'm Bryan Entzminger, you can find me at toptieraudio.com, and over here is.

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>> I'm Jesse McEwen, you can find me at Tansy Aster Academy.

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>> I'm Jennifer Longworth at bourbonbarrelpodcasting.com.

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>> In case you weren't able to guess,

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Daniel and Carrie were not able to join us this evening.

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You can find Daniel at RothMedia.audio and Carrie is at Carrie

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.land.

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Today we're going to be talking about what

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some of the vocabulary means that we use as editors.

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This might seem like a super boring topic.

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It's probably not the one that's going to get you a zillion clicks on the Googles.

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But as a person that sometimes struggled with these words,

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I can tell you it's incredibly valuable,

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not only because understanding what the words mean is important,

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but also being able to explain them to prospects and

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to clients in ways that they understand while not talking down to them.

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That is super critical.

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I'm really happy to start getting into this.

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A quick hello, Steve says, "Hi, Steve.

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We're glad that you were able to join us."

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Just another peek behind the curtain,

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many of the things that we're going to be talking

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about today are things that we've been asked about.

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So I posted earlier in the Facebook group.

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We've got a few questions or a few words to define that we got from Steve.

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We got one from Daniel.

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Jennifer and I and Jesse have all come up with some of ours.

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But if you're joining us and we say something that doesn't make sense to you,

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or there's something else you've been wondering about,

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please ask in the chat if you're listening later to

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the actual podcast episode just send us an email info@podcasteditorsmastermind.com,

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because these are the boring parts that really make it all work.

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So Jennifer, you actually raised this topic.

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So why don't you share a little bit about what you were

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thinking when you said we should talk about this?

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Well, you see discussions in the various Facebook groups and sometimes people,

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obviously, don't understand what's being asked or maybe I confess,

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I don't understand what you guys are talking about.

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There was one episode of this show and I was like,

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I am lost but I'm not going to admit it.

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Oh, no.

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So I was like, hey,

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why don't we do a vocab episode?

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Maybe we'll just jump into it.

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I've got it broken down.

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We've got one that's just related to or a couple that are

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related to just general podcasting stuff,

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then we have some audio specific stuff.

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So I think I'll maybe start with

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the podcasting stuff and then we'll move on to audio things.

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The first one is, what is an RSS feed?

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So who wants to address that one? What is it?

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Well, depends on who you ask.

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It could stand for really simple syndication or something else,

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but I go with really simple syndication.

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Yeah. So from a technical standpoint,

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the RSS feed is nothing but a text file that holds all the information that tells

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a podcatcher or a podcast app what's available and where to get it.

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That's all it is, it's just some code.

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But the magic is that that's what makes podcasting possible.

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That file or feed, if you will,

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is what makes it so that there's no magic man in the middle that could

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just decimate your show by deciding not to service it anymore.

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That file is what makes open podcasting possible.

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So Jesse, how do you explain an RSS feed to a client?

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I don't. That's fair.

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That's beautiful.

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It's just the way we distribute the files.

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Anything beyond that, they're just going to gloss over and the reality is,

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I don't really understand the nuts and bolts behind it.

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I just know it's been used to syndicate everything from audio to text to video for what, 20 years now?

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Have you ever had a client ask you or do they just-

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Actually, I haven't.

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That's awesome. I've almost never had a client that didn't ask.

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That's interesting. Maybe that's my fault.

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I'll take that. What about a podcast host?

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Now, that's one that gets confusing because it doesn't necessarily-

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This is one that Danielle brought up because there's the podcast host,

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like the person talking,

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but from a technical standpoint,

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when I think of a podcast host,

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I think of Libsyn or Blueberry or Captivate.

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Do you guys ever have to talk with clients about what that is,

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why it's important, how do you explain that to clients?

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I refer to it as a media host and if they have any kind of confusion,

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that seems to help clear it up.

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That way they know we're not talking about you,

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the podcast host of your own show versus where you store the show for distribution.

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But you see this come up a lot in podcast help forums.

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If someone will say, "Oh, I'm having this issue, blah, blah, blah."

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And someone says, "Who's your host?"

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And they say, "It's me, of course."

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And it's like, "Oh, Facepalm, that's not what I meant.

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Who's your media host? Where do you store your files?"

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So a lot of people apparently don't know what that means.

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And then they're like, "I want Apple and Spotify."

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It's like, you're still not answering the question.

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Do you ever have people ask you whether or not they can use their web host to host their files?

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Does that ever come up?

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Not for me.

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I haven't had anybody ask me specifically,

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but I have seen that question pop up online a number of times.

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I was wondering if maybe that was kind of an old-timer question,

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because I used to see that a lot.

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I don't see it as much anymore.

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I've had some people ask me, and I usually tell them from a technical standpoint,

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"Yeah, it's a file. You can do that from a...

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Is this going to work well for you and your audience? Absolutely not."

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Because that host is not set up to deliver really big files of stuff

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all at the same time when your episode drops.

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So that's how I address it.

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Patrick, glad that you were able to join us for the super incredibly fun episode

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where we talk about vocabulary.

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We talked a little bit about some of the technical stuff.

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I'd like to move on to audio things.

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So first one comes to mind when I think about audio is decibel.

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I'll let you touch this one, Jesse.

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From a technical standpoint, decibel, what is it?

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It's just a measure of loudness.

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And I understand the confusion between decibels, decibels, full-scale, luffs, RMS.

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These are all different ways of measuring loudness.

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That's why it gets so confusing.

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That's why it's nice that we've kind of settled on luffs

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as the primary way of measuring audio loudness these days.

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Let's just talk about luffs, right?

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So decibels, you said measure of loudness.

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In our world, we're not talking about speakers playing out into the world, right?

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So we're not talking about decibels of truly moving air.

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We're talking about versus how loud a system can be, right?

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So technically decibels, full-scale measurement of digital audio.

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In relation to that, luffs is similar but not the same.

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So can you break that one down for us?

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Essentially, a luff is supposed to generally equate to one decibel.

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The difference being that luffs are meant to measure loudness more

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in the way that the human ear hears it versus on a scale

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the way that an RMS or decibel meter would measure it.

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To answer the question I'm going to guess is coming next

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or to add a little more to it,

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the main difference is the way we perceive bass

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versus the way it's measured with like a decibel meter.

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If we use a decibel meter, things are going to sound louder

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or read as being louder to have more bass

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because bass has more energy to it.

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It's going to make the meters read louder.

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Luffs try to compensate for that.

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So if you have a big thumping hip-hop track,

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all of that bass that's giving it all of its power

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isn't going to make it sound...

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It's going to make it easier to measure that

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and compare it to this classical piece

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so that they're the same volume the way our ears perceive them.

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Okay.

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And since Steve said luffs take a drink, I'm going to say luffs.

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So he can take a drink.

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Here's, and I'll ask the two of you,

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how far in the weeds you want to get on this

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because this can get very mathy very quickly

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when we start talking about decibels and luffs

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and it can start to feel like high school algebra all over.

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Jesse, if I'm not wrong, there's more than one time horizon

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over which we measure luffs, right?

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So luffs is not a truly momentary measure

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of any given point in time.

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It's measured over different time breaks.

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Is that right?

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Yeah, it is a measurement of the entire file.

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You might have like your momentary luffs reading,

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but the number we're concerned with,

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it's the measurement of the entire file.

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And then to make things even more exciting,

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if we start talking about targets,

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there are different targets

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published by different people, right?

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So there's Apple Podcasts has a target

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that they've suggested.

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Spotify has a target that they've suggested.

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YouTube has a target.

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The Audio Engineering Society has a target.

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There are all these other targets out there.

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What do you share with a client as it relates to luffs,

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whether you use the word luffs

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as Steve takes another drink or not?

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I just kind of go with the Apple standard

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because trying to hit negative 14 luffs,

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that's difficult with dialogue.

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Spotify's target is definitely designed more for music.

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So I just tell them here, if you're stereo,

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aim for negative 16, if you're mono, negative 19.

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I think AES or one of those societies

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has a slightly quieter take on what they feel

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is the ideal level for dialogue,

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but I can't remember specifically what that level is.

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Yeah, the AES adjusted it about a year and a half ago,

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and they said for dialogue, let's make it minus 18.

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Let's still leave music at minus 16.

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I'm like, come on guys.

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Like every 12 months, you're gonna change this now.

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So I'm with you.

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I just tell people, like when I'm talking with a client,

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I just say, I'm gonna make it so that it sounds at the level

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where the majority of your podcast listeners

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are gonna expect it to be, which is,

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at least for the shows I've worked on,

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the Apple standard, right?

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I would argue along with you that 14, negative 14,

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what Spotify is asking for for dialogue is crazy loud.

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I can achieve it, gotta work at it, I can achieve it,

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but it is crazy, crazy loud.

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And so I would agree with you on that.

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Jennifer, do you ever have to talk loves?

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- Not with clients.

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I just say, I level it all out and they say, okay.

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And that's it.

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- So that takes us to another thing

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that we hadn't really talked about,

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but when we talk about loudness, right,

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we're talking about how loud is that overall file,

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but within a file, there can be variation, right?

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So there's another part of this

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that I think most of us tend to forget about,

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which is the loudness range.

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What's the difference between the average

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and the quietest part, or the average

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and the loudest part, if you will.

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And at least at one point, there were standards for that.

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I don't recall what they are anymore.

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But yeah, to your point, Jennifer,

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if you talk about leveling it out so that it's all right,

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ideally you're covering the loudness range and the loves.

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And you'd have to talk about, like, my clients,

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they don't care what that number is.

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- No, they don't care.

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- If I was interviewing an editor to work for me,

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I would care, because then I'm expecting them

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to meet my targets and all that stuff, but yeah.

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And Patrick says, "Negative things being louder

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makes my head explode."

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Yeah, it's that whole absolute value

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of a negative number thing.

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So bigger negative number is actually quieter,

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and smaller negative number is, yeah.

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We got into math way quicker than I thought we would,

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so sorry about that, Patrick.

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- Get away from the math, Bryan, stop.

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- And just to complicate things a little bit more,

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negative 19 is twice as loud as negative 16.

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That's why there's the difference.

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Negative 16, you've got a stereo file.

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You've got equal energy coming from left and right.

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So a monophile is half that,

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and that equates to a three-left difference.

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So three-lefts is twice the energy, twice the loudness.

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I didn't expect to get into pan law either,

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but yeah, that's a good piece to remember.

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So to Jesse's point, if you're working on a stereo file,

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minus 16 is what I would recommend,

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and minus 19 is what I would recommend for mono.

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I think that's the same as Jesse.

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Steve says, "Fletcher-Munson curve."

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I don't have a copy of that,

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but those of you out there wondering

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what the Fletcher-Munson curve is,

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it's just a measure of how we perceive

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different frequencies against each other

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at different volume levels,

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and that's part of what builds out

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the way they look at a LUFS measurement.

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The idea is that at a certain level,

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it should all sound similar.

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I've got a couple more technicals on the editing side.

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One is multitrack.

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That was the only word, so I'm gonna start with multitrack,

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and I think there's a couple directions we can go.

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Jennifer, when you think of multitrack,

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what are you thinking?

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- Well, the first thing I think, I use Adobe Audition,

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so when I think multitrack, I think nondestructive editing,

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because if you go into the waveform in Audition,

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I think it's destructive editing,

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so if I wanna be nondestructive,

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which isn't even a vocab word today, I'm making it one.

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- Should be.

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So what's nondestructive editing?

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- Nondestructive editing means that if I save it,

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I can go back and, oh, I can still fix my changes in short.

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That's the non-technical way to describe it.

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Like, if you save something in waveform,

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you close, and you come back, oh, too bad, it's gone.

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It's been destroyed.

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You can never get it back,

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but if you're in multitrack and Audition,

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and you just move things around, you can get them back.

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- So you think of that in terms of Audition

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and their editor, 'cause they do have

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a couple of different editing capabilities, right?

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- Yes, that's what comes to my mind.

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- Jesse, when you think multitrack, what are you thinking?

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- I'm thinking one of two things.

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I'm thinking either a multitrack DAW,

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which allows you to work on multiple tracks individually,

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or I think of how a roadcaster records

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their multitrack files into multi-wave

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or whatever they call it.

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Those are the two things that come up in my mind

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when I hear multitrack.

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- I think that gets us there,

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'cause we could get into this whole nuanced thing

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about multi-channel, multitrack, all that crazy stuff.

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I think the way you're describing it,

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individual files for things

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or individual tracks for things, absolutely perfect.

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I hadn't even, Jennifer, I hadn't even thought

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about the whole waveform editor thing.

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Patrick says that he even edits individual tracks

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and multitracks because he's more comfortable there.

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I'm assuming Patrick, is that an Adobe Audition thing,

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you just prefer working in the waveform editor?

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Steve says, "The way I would explain it

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to a client, a client multitrack equals layers."

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I hadn't thought about it that way.

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Interesting.

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I have to think about that one, Steve,

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'cause that's an interesting way to think about it.

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Patrick says, yes, he is talking

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about the waveform editor.

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I'm really intrigued that you're more comfortable

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in the waveform editor.

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- No, no, he said multitrack.

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- Oh, I misunderstood.

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Okay, it makes perfect sense.

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Yeah, thank you.

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- And this is why I don't work with Adobe.

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It just makes my head hurt.

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- Oh, I love Adobe.

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- Everything Adobe makes my head hurt,

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but I'm glad other people love it.

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It's just not for me.

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- That's why there's more than one DAW.

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- It is the most popular DAW out there

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when it comes to the Podcast Editors Club,

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which Steve Stewart leads.

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So no shade on them.

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I don't think that way either.

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I'm with you, Jesse.

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It kind of makes me confused.

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So let's move on to some of the other audio stuff

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that's maybe a little bit less on the audio technical side.

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So Jesse, you actually brought this one up,

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reverb versus echo.

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And I think there's some passion for you behind this topic.

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So share what you're thinking, reverb versus echo.

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- I'm sure anybody who's spent any time

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on any kind of Facebook group or podcast forum sees this.

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I'm getting a lot of echo on my recording.

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How do I fix it?

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And if we're speaking a different language,

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you're saying echo.

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I think of echo where you hear clearly distinct

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replications of the original audio.

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Like you go to the Grand Canyon,

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yell across and you say, echo, echo, echo.

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That's not the same thing as what we hear recording

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in a room.

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Even if you have multiple people in that room,

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that's more mic bleed, that's not really echo.

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And mic bleed kind of blurs that line between reverb

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and just straight up mic bleed.

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But what Bryan's

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alluding to was I just get really worked up

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when I see a company like Riverside say something like,

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our magic audio removes echo from your recordings.

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I just expect companies to use the proper language.

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So we try to correct people.

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So instead of perpetuating this misuse of the wrong word.

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- Yeah, I'm with you on that,

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especially a company of that size where you know,

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they have to have audio engineers working for them

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to help them with all of their magic that they're doing.

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It's not just a bunch of coders.

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They've got some people there that know what they're doing.

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That for me is one.

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So we talked about echo.

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What about reverb?

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Just explain reverb to us.

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- It's the sound of the room.

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If you stand in the middle of your room and clap,

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that ringing that, I don't know what else to describe it as,

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but you'll hear kind of a ring or the sound lingers slightly.

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That's what reverb is.

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Kind of think if you go into a cave and you're talking,

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or you go into your bathroom and start talking loud,

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you'll hear that reverb.

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That's why people love singing in the bathrooms

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because they sound good because of all that natural reverb.

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- I hate singing in the bathroom, but I'm with you.

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Patrick says he thinks acoustics when he thinks reverb.

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I think that's pretty much what you're saying, right?

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The acoustics of the room that you're in.

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- Yeah.

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- You talked about the bleed from headphones to a microphone.

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I think the other side of that that we sometimes see

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are people that show up without headphones

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to a recording session and thinking it's like a Zoom session,

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which it may or may not be or something like that.

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First off, would you call that echo?

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Do you call that reverb or fold back something else?

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What do you call that?

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- I would call that echo because the person talks.

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You hear it out your speaker.

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It gets picked up by the microphone

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and it'll echo it back to the other person.

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That's why if someone on a call

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has their echo cancellation set wrong,

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you hear your voice echoed back to you.

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- So let's take that a step further.

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And let's say that I'm in a Facebook group

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and I say to you,

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how do I get rid of my guests echo in my recording?

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What would you say?

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- I would just ask, what do you mean by echo?

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Because I can't help without knowing

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if we're talking about echo or reverb.

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- 'Cause I was immediately assume they're meaning reverb

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because that's what they usually mean.

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- Okay.

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And if through that conversation, we said,

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okay, I'm talking about my guests audio,

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it's being picked up by the speaker.

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For some reason, it seems to be echoing in the recording.

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It's on my side of the track too, what's going on?

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How would I fix that?

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- It depends if it's,

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there's two different types of that kind of echo

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that I've run into.

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You have the echo that's being picked up by the mic

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and the levels are going to be quieter

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than the other person's direct audio.

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The other issue I've run into is people using USB mics

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with headphones plugged right in.

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- Oh, right, yeah.

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- There've been a few times where Riverside

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can't split that signal correctly.

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So it sends the headphone feed and the microphone feed

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to the same track.

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So your audio has everything going to the headphones

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embedded into it.

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- Which is just a delightful edit, isn't it?

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- Yeah.

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- Where I was headed was,

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if I found out somebody was getting guest audio

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back in their thing, my first question would be,

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are you wearing headphones?

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If they are, then I think we go immediately

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to what you're talking about, right?

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How loud are your headphones?

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Are you using a USB microphone or is there something

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where that audio could be transmitted into the,

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like I've seen some of those earbuds

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where they've got the built-in microphone

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and you get the remote guest in that microphone

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because it's literally attached.

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But yeah, I was going for headphones, just wear 'em.

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- What benefits do you share with clients?

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First off, do you tell clients they need to wear headphones?

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And if so, why?

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- I absolutely tell them to wear headphones.

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There's lots of benefits, but one of them is,

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so that the sound doesn't count,

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I'll have the speaker right back into the mic,

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but the other one's monitoring.

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- Hear yourself and then also don't pick it up.

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Steve has a question.

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You guys wanna jump into Steve's question?

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- Yeah, let's do it.

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- This is a great one.

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He says, so we were talking about echo and reverb

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and all that stuff.

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He says he thinks that he's been calling cross talk

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incorrectly, so could we please cover that?

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I have some thoughts on cross talk.

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- What's cross talk?

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- So in my mind-

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- I think it's cross talk.

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- You think it's cross talk?

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- Are we talking about cross talk?

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- Stepping on top of each other?

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- Yeah.

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- I'm not sure what that would be called.

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I call that two people talking at the same time.

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'Cause I don't know what the right-

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- I call that cross talk.

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- Cross talk?

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- Yeah. - Yep.

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- Okay, so I was thinking of cross talk in terms of

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in old recording consoles where they didn't have

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great separation between channels,

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you would sometimes get audio from one channel

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being picked up by another channel.

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I thought that was cross talk.

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Maybe I'm wrong on that.

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- I think those are both valid uses of cross talk.

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- Okay, I called it people talking at the same time

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'cause I didn't wanna use the wrong words

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and I'm gonna call it cross talk.

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I mean, if Patrick and Steve and Jesse and Jennifer

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say it's right, then it has to be.

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So now I can do it.

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If Daniel had been here,

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he could have been the dissenting opinion.

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(laughing)

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Sorry, Daniel, you missed out.

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That's a good one.

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Thank you, Steve, for asking.

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Is that what you're calling cross talk?

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Is it when people step on each other while they're talking

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or were you talking about it as something else?

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- While we wait for his answer,

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going back to the headphone thing,

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what I tell clients is using headphones

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is the most important thing to sounding good

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because you cannot fix echo cancellation.

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- Totally.

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You can fix some reverb, right?

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Or the reflections from the room.

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Patrick had commented about DX revive.

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That's one of the tools I sometimes use.

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I think Jesse and I both use Super Tone Clear as well.

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There are a ton of tools out there for that kind of thing.

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Nothing that I've found will fix

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the lack of echo cancellation.

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Best I've ever done is trying to cut it out manually

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and that is a fool's errand.

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It's hours of work for terrible results.

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- Patrick says that they have to have headphones or earbuds

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or they make them reschedule.

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That's perfect.

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Did I jump on top of you, Jennifer?

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- Yeah. - Was there something you were--

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- Yeah, I was popping up Steve's.

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Cross talk has two definitions like podcast host.

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So yes, talking at the same time is how he defines it.

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- Perfect.

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So Jesse, this is one that you had brought up

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before we started recording, overmodulation.

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Is it Riverside that sometimes uses

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that word in their stuff?

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- I'm not sure who uses it.

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I just, I see it off and on.

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And in strict audio terms like what we are doing,

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recording and editing dialogue,

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I'm not familiar with anything that's called overmodulation.

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In music, you have modulation,

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which is like chorus or delay effects.

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But I have no clue what overmodulation is,

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which means if somebody's saying that or asking about it,

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I have no way of helping them.

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What I've found is, at least in the world of telecom,

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it was if the signal exceeds what's required for 100%.

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So I think that's what we would refer to as,

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within the audio world, as what would lead to clipping.

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It's going over that zero into a positive value.

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It's now louder than 100%.

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That's how I would understand it.

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That doesn't mean I'm right,

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but that's how I would think that.

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Yeah, Patrick says, classical musician thinks

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that modulation is a key change.

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It took a bit for me to get there as well,

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'cause I always thought of modulation as that key change.

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And I guess overmodulation is if you do two

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at the same time, I don't know.

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I think it's when recording too hot, you get clipping,

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or if you process too hard, you get that distortion.

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I think that's what it is.

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If I'm wrong, somebody please tell me,

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'cause that's how I'm gonna use it from now on

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until I find out I'm wrong.

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Jennifer, this one was yours, engineering versus editing.

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- Engineering versus editing.

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- Let's go one further.

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- Engineering versus editing versus producing.

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- Oh yeah, you added the producing,

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which is like, what the heck?

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I mean, people come and they're like,

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I need a podcast producer.

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I'm like, okay, what do you need someone to do for you?

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Because we probably have different definitions

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of these terms.

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But now that I have a team of editors,

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I do all the engineering,

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and I pass the editing off to them.

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So the engineering is more like the sound quality,

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whereas the editing is the content.

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It's how I look at it.

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- How about you, Jesse?

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- In my world, I look at engineering as,

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it's what happens up to the end of the recording.

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Once the recording's done, you move into post-production,

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whether you call that editing or mixing, whatever it is.

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To me, engineering is everything you do

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to get a good recording.

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Once the recording process is done,

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the engineer's job is done.

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You hand it off to the editor,

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whoever you want to call them.

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Sometimes it's the producer, sometimes it's the editor,

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sometimes it's someone else.

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I'm sure there's other names out there.

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- For better or worse, the way I look at it,

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and we're probably not all gonna agree here today,

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and that's okay, 'cause we're just talking about these.

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As long as we can walk out and agree

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that Bryan was right when we're done, we're fine.

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I think of the producer as the person

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who's responsible for the show,

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that may or may not be the host,

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or it may or may not be somebody

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that comes alongside them to help provide a content schedule,

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keep track of any marketing, that kind of stuff.

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That's what I think of in terms of a show producer.

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When I think of editing,

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I think of two different kinds of editing.

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One is what I'll call the story editor.

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So if you've got something

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where you're putting together a story,

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or you're going through and determining

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which sections of content need to come out,

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or which sections need to be pulled out

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to be put into something,

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that's what I think of in terms of a story editor

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potentially rearranging things

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like you might do for a newscast,

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where you've got a person on the street

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with a microphone capturing 30-second clips,

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and you're gonna put all those together,

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or you're going out and you're capturing,

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over the period of X number of months or an hour,

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an interview with somebody,

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and then you're going to pull out 15 minutes out of that

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to make that into something.

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I think of that as a story editor.

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They're responsible for the arc of the story.

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Most of what I do is the technical editing,

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and most of my editing is linear.

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I'm starting at the beginning.

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I have an interview.

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I cut out the distractions.

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I might cut out a sentence or two here,

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but I'm not changing the content.

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I'm not changing the story arc.

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I'm not doing any of that.

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It's just removing distractions and mistakes.

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Jesse, to your point,

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I don't necessarily think of engineering

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as only the recording engineer side of it.

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I also think of it as potentially a mix engineer.

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I realize that we're not mixing a professional record here,

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but that EQ, the compression, that kind of stuff,

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audio repair, I tend to think of that a little bit more

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in the engineering than the editing side,

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but I'm not gonna die on that hill either,

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and I definitely see everything on the recording side

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in terms of quality audio as engineering.

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Hopefully that hasn't confused everybody too much.

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Steve says that he thinks of editing as cutting

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and engineering as headphones.

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I'm assuming making it sound good.

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I hope that's what that was.

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Patrick says that he doesn't feel cool enough

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to call himself an engineer.

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I don't know, should we take a vote?

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Should we let Patrick call himself an engineer?

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Is that okay?

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All in favor say aye.

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- Sure. - I think so.

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- The motion carries.

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Patrick, you can call yourself an engineer

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by the authority of the three of us.

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- There you go.

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- We have nothing.

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We kind of blew through that.

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Is there anything we missed?

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- Well, I'll just say that I joined

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the Chris Curran's Podcast Engineering School

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'cause I feel like that's where I'm weak on.

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I think I know all about editing now.

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I've been doing it for eight years.

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I got that.

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But the engineering part, a little fuzzy.

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Gotta learn more.

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- Yeah, and you know, as I think about that,

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there's definitely an element of critical listening

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that comes with engineering in a way that I didn't do

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when I was just editing.

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Jesse, you kind of came from that engineering background

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in terms of working on music quite a bit.

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Did you find that it changed

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when you started engineering or not?

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- Did what change?

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- The way you listen.

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- Yeah, the more, everything we do

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when we're working with audio, we're training our ears.

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So the more time we spend editing, the more time,

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I mean, what I've found has helped me the most

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has been teaching and working with people.

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Being able to listen to their stuff, teach them,

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it helps you really focus on your listening skills

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because you're not bothered with trying

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to get this client project done

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so I can get onto the next one.

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You're just focused on listening

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and that makes a huge difference

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in how quickly you start to develop that ear.

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Kind of to your point

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about the different types of engineering,

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I would classify kind of the mix engineer

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as part of the post-production process.

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I'd make a distinction between the recording engineer

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and the mixing engineer.

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- That's fair, yeah.

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- And like you were talking about, the mix engineer,

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they're going to be doing the cleanup,

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doing everything kind of like Steve's making it sound good.

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That's what you're doing as the mix engineer.

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- So to your point, you mentioned listening differently

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and when you're not focused

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on having to churn out client projects,

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one of the things that I've noticed is it seems like my ears,

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in my opinion, tend to make the most progress

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when I'm trying to help develop an EQ

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and compression template for somebody.

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So that they've got sort of a processing baseline

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to start from because that's when I really start to listen

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for exactly where are those resonances

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that the room or the microphone or their voice is causing.

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And then how can we address those

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in a way that keeps their voice natural

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but maybe reduces some of those things

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that stand out a little bit.

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So I definitely see that in some of the work

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that I've done as well.

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Another place I've seen that is

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if somebody wants a little bit of help

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trying to treat their room, doing it long distance,

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I can't walk through the room and go,

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this is what I hear, this is what.

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So you end up with your headphones on or your speakers

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listening very carefully to like five or six different

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recordings that they made and going, okay,

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sounds like I'm getting something here,

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it sounds like I'm getting something here,

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tell me more about the space.

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Typically I'll hear, there'll be some kind of resonance,

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either typically it's a multiple of like 100 or 125 hertz,

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depending on the size of the room.

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Then you go, okay, where does that seem to be hitting

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and how can we treat it?

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That to me has been really valuable, but it's hard work.

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Do you do anything else, Jesse, to train your ears?

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- Just listen to as much stuff as I can and practice.

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I really can't stress enough how important

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setting aside time to practice is,

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even if you've been doing it for a while.

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Nothing speeds up your process and helps you see new things,

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like setting aside that time when you don't have

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any external pressures on you.

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You're not trying to get stuff done,

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you don't have to worry about a client, deadlines,

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anything like that.

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You can just focus on listening and whatever skill it is

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you've set aside that time to work on.

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- Here's another fun one.

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We already kind of touched on it,

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but soundproofing versus acoustic treatment.

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So if I said, I need to soundproof my room,

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I've got these foam wedges that I picked up from a company,

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I need to stop my neighbor's lawnmower coming through,

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what would you tell me?

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- Well, when I had my studio back in 2019,

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I tried to make that distinguish.

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I'm like, this is a sound-treated space.

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This is not a soundproof space.

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There is a difference. (laughs)

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- And what's the difference?

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- Well, sound can get through just the sound-treated space.

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I mean, it can come in, but with the acoustic treatment,

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it'll help with the resonances

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and the sound that's initiated within the room,

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but it's not necessarily gonna keep out stuff

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coming from the outside.

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- Jesse, how about you?

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- I try to describe it to clients as soundproof

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keeps sound from inside your room from going out

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and outside sound from coming in.

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Acoustic treatment, sound treatment is designed

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to make the sound of your room more appealing.

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It's not going to stop your dog barking

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or the landscapers outside,

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but it's going to make it so you don't have

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a lot of those room resonances.

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You see all these panels back here.

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I've sound-treated my room,

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but I still hear all sorts of sounds.

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If my cat's outside playing, banging against the door,

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you're all going to hear that.

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Soundproofing is a very expensive endeavor.

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You basically have to build your room specifically for that,

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or you're not going to get there.

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- And for most podcasters,

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do you think soundproofing is even relevant?

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- It's not necessary.

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If you've got a good mic,

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I mean, I record people in their living rooms, wherever,

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all you need is a decent dynamic mic that's positioned well,

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and all of that other stuff doesn't really matter.

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You might have a little reverb you have to deal with.

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You might have some room resonances,

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but the bass quality is still going to be there.

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- I would agree with that.

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Steve says that soundproofing and sound treatment to him

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are as different and confusing as tornado warning

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and tornado watch.

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I would say that they definitely confused me early on.

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I think, yeah, I mean, I've invested most of my time

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and money in this room on the treatment, right?

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Reducing the resonances,

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it's essentially a square room,

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it's terrible for recording, so I had to treat it, right?

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But it's the best room in the house for that.

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Patrick says that a blanket is magic.

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It definitely has been for me

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before I had the treatments I have.

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I had a bunch of moving blankets hung up.

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They were ugly, they looked terrible,

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but they sounded good, and that's what I did with those.

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Steve says that Jesse reminded you of terms that he uses

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with clients, dynamics versus condenser mics.

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I didn't even think about covering that.

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Do you guys wanna talk about that?

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- Yeah, let's talk about that.

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- Let me add one more thing about the acoustic

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and your question.

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I think that if you're doing podcasts

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and you've been doing it for a while,

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getting sound treatment is the best investment you can make,

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but it's absolutely not necessary.

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But if you're wanting to invest in getting better sound

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before getting a RODECaster or a 7B,

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invest that money into your sound treatment,

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that will make a much bigger difference

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than the mic or interface that you're using.

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- I would agree wholeheartedly.

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I don't wanna make a blanket statement

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because of course there are outliers, there are exceptions.

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But if somebody came to me with $1,000 and said,

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should I buy a RODECaster and a 7B,

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depending on the space they were in,

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I might say, actually, can you get a Samson Q2U

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or an ATR2100X for $100 and spend the other 800 on treatment

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because you'll probably get more out of that

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than the fancy microphone in the RODECaster.

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Just my opinion.

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- I'd agree.

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- We're agreeing with each other.

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It was bound to happen eventually.

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Patrick also says that he has guests

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put a blanket on their lap.

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I hadn't thought about that.

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I have put a blanket on my desk.

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I've hidden under a blanket.

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I've made a pillow fort.

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I've never put a blanket on my lap.

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That's an interesting one.

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- Patrick, I'd like to know a little bit more

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about the reasoning behind that.

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Are these laps affecting the acoustics?

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I'm just curious on that one.

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The desk, I understand.

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- While Patrick's doing that,

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let's talk about dynamics versus condensers.

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Let's put it in the context of having a conversation

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with a client who is not an audio person

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and telling them what's the difference

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and why should they care.

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- I describe a condenser as,

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it's basically like a magnifying glass.

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You look throughout your room.

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It's going to magnify every imperfection

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from your acoustics to sounds inside your room,

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even outside the room.

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You might hear the dog barking across the house

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because they're so sensitive.

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Dynamics, people seem to think that they're sound canceling

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or something like that.

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They're just less sensitive.

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So you're still going to pick up loud sounds in your room.

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If your dog's barking next to you,

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it's still going to pick that up,

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but you're going to be able to minimize

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a lot of the outside sound because it's not as sensitive.

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When you get right up on the mic,

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you have so much of your voice.

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All of the background sound is much quieter in relation.

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- The one thing that I would add is generally,

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I recommend dynamic microphones for people,

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especially people who say, "I'm about to start my show.

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What microphone should I get?"

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And that is the totality of the focus

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they've put on the question

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because it's generally the safer bet.

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But I also want to point out

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that condenser microphones can work.

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I'm on one and Jesse's on one too.

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The key is both of us have treated our spaces

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to work for the microphones that we're using.

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So if I was sitting in my kitchen right now

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with this microphone, it would sound abysmal.

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Actually in my kitchen, even a dynamic microphone

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might sound really bad because it's hard floors, hard walls.

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But that notwithstanding, this microphone would be terrible.

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And so that's why I typically recommend dynamics,

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even though I use a condenser.

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Because I spent the money we talked about

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making my space work.

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Patrick has his answer, says, "usually the desk."

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So this is in reference to a blanket on the lap.

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Usually on the desk, sometimes in a lap

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if the desk is not possible.

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And also maybe they're cold, I like that one.

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And then have another host who put two or three dog toys

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on the test and it makes a big difference.

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I'm assuming those are some kind of soft dog toys

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that are absorbing sound.

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And I can totally see how that would work.

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Did we need to hit anything more on dynamics and condensers?

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I think we covered that one.

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- Well, I'll just give kind of an A side.

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The reason I'm on a condenser mic

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is dynamic mics need a lot of gain.

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I have a quiet voice.

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So using an RE20, I needed to use so much gain

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that I had a ton of noise in my recordings.

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So I needed a more sensitive mic.

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I don't know how well it translates,

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but I'm still about an inch and a half away from this mic

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and have a ton of gain added digitally through my interface

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to have something you guys can all hear.

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So I'm using that sensitivity to my advantage

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so I don't have to spend as much time cleaning up my audio.

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But like you said, I've spent the money

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on the sound treatment.

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So I have that luxury of being able to choose

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between the two.

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- Yeah.

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So we have, I think, three more to go.

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And these are not audio.

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These are back to podcast specific stuff,

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but these are about episodes.

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So the first one is cold open.

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What's a cold open?

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Jennifer?

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- You just start, jump right in.

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- Okay.

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Jesse, what do you think of?

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- First thing that pops into my mind is Saturday Night Live.

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They start with a cold open.

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Something to get you into things.

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And to me, I don't like that they've started using that term

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in podcasts where a lot of times they call a cold open,

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it's a clip from later in the show.

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To me, that's more of a preview or something to hook you in

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as opposed to a cold open.

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But people use terms interchangeably,

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so they might be calling it a cold open

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and it's a true cold open.

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I don't know.

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- That's interesting.

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I had typically heard cold open in terms of those clips,

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although I recognize the Saturday Night Live thing as well.

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I think for me, a cold open done well is a hook.

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And whether that hook is, well, I would say is a hook

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that isn't the introduction to the show.

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So if you're starting with, on this episode,

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we're gonna talk about five things

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that will make you rich in 23 minutes.

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I'm Bryan, stick around for the next 20 minutes.

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To me, that's not a cold open.

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That's an introduction or a pre-introduction,

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but something that's, let's call it an ex-context clip.

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So as you were talking about a section from the episode

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with no context setting it up,

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a quote or something like that,

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I would think of that as a cold open.

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Honestly, in many cases, I would think of that

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as a cold open that's done poorly.

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Patrick says he calls that a teaser.

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I'm guessing, Patrick, you're talking about

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the Saturday Night Live version of a cold open

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or the little preview of the episode.

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If you wanna share a little bit more about that,

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I'd love to hear more about your thoughts

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'cause this is one that I'm not super comfortable

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with myself.

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- I like his second comment about a cold open is no intro.

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I would take that as more of the Saturday Night Live thing

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or you just start the show, you don't have an intro,

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you don't have the teaser hook, whatever you wanna call it.

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And I think he was saying the clip, whatever,

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he would call that a teaser and I like his definitions.

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- Okay, tonight's episode, we almost had a cold open, right?

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'Cause I forgot the music.

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- Yeah, that's what it was.

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- Steve says he had a client with a TV background

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and she considered a cold open

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as the guest highlight snippet or teaser.

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I can totally go with that.

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What about dynamic insertion?

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- I'm still learning about dynamic insertion.

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So I'm gonna punt.

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- Jesse, do you have a perspective on it?

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I've got mine, but.

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- I have a little bit of a perspective

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and I think podcasters get too hung up

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on that being something that can only be used for ads.

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If you look at it from a bigger picture thing,

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there's so much power to those to use it

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to promote your own things,

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whether it's promoting previous episodes,

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if you're someone who offers services,

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you can use those to promote your services,

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not just as a means for monetizing with advertisers.

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- Yeah, so in my mind,

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there's two kinds of dynamic insertion

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and it doesn't have anything to do with ads necessarily.

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One kind is where content can be swapped out

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within an episode,

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but then everybody that downloads it gets the same content.

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So as an example, for this show,

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let's say that we, well, we have some intro music,

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but let's say we wanted to be able to change out the intro

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based on the season of the year that we're in.

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We have one for winter, one for spring, whatever.

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We could potentially,

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'cause of the media hosts that we have,

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we could have a pre-roll that is our intro

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and we could swap that out

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and that would be dynamic content because we can change it.

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On the other hand, there's dynamic content

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that could be potentially different for every listener

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and this is where programmatic ads come in,

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where a media host is inserting something

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for that particular listener to hear

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and maybe not everybody else.

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So I think there's a little bit of rub between those two

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and maybe I'm not 100% right.

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That's just how I think of it.

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Dynamic content is anything that can be swapped out

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without having to re-upload the episode

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and dynamic content is also potentially anything

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that can be swapped out for any specific download,

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whether it's geographically targeted or random,

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it doesn't matter, that's also dynamic.

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The difference being one of them is stitched together

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and then everybody has served the same file

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and the other one is stitched together individually

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for every person that downloads that file.

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One more, this is somebody's pet peeve.

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I don't remember whose it was,

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but what is the difference between a podcast and an episode?

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I think this is the hill we're gonna die on.

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So Jennifer, I just recorded a new podcast.

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What did I record?

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(laughing)

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- Well, I just started a new podcast

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and when I say that, I meant like an ongoing series,

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but the people who I'm talking to like,

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oh, she released three podcasts today.

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I'm like, episode, I released three episodes today.

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- Well, the person could be really productive

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and did start three new podcasts this week.

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- Yeah, could be.

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- Well, that wasn't me.

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(laughing)

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- Steve says that he's gonna claim that as his pet peeve.

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I think it probably was,

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I just kind of lost track of where I was.

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Steve says a podcast is a show

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and an episode is an individual release.

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I will stand with Steve on this one.

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I have nothing else to add.

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Jesse or Jennifer, anything else?

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- I'm in complete agreement with that one.

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- Yay, we ended on a high note.

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So Jennifer, do we have a chat GPT question of the week?

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'Cause that's what we're gonna do next.

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- Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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And Patrick, you'll like this one.

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If you had the ability to instantly master

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any musical instrument, which one would you choose

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and what kind of music would you play with it?

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- Oh man, instantly master any musical instrument?

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- Any musical instrument.

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And what kind of music would you play with it?

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- Man, you know what?

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I would probably choose the pipe organ

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because it is one of the most difficult instruments

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in the world to play.

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And to be able to master that would be unbelievable.

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What kind of music would I play?

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Probably Smoke on the Water 'cause...

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(both laughing)

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What about you, Jesse?

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- Guitar?

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Seriously, I wish I could master guitar.

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My wife is the one who, she can make us sing.

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I'm just the engineer.

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I can make pretty sounds, but I can't make it,

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turn it into music.

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And I'd probably play like blues or something.

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- Well, the first instrument that honestly popped

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in my head was the accordion and I would play Weird Al.

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But realistically, it would have to be the piano

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and singable music is what I would play

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for people to sing along with me.

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- Steve says the cowbell all the way.

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Steve, we could never have enough of you in our song.

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And Patrick says a theremin.

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I love that.

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I didn't even think of the theremin.

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And he says that he actually has one,

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but he's not doing so great with it.

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And Steve says also the metronome

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during a marching band performance.

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I should say that I do play the saxophone,

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but I have far from mastered it.

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But if I had to choose a new one,

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that's where I was coming from with that one.

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Jennifer, if somebody wants to be a guest, what do they do?

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- They need to contact us by going to

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podcasteditermastermind.com/be-a-guest.

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And it takes you to a little form that you fill out

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and we get the info and then we ask you to be a guest.

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- And if you have any topics that you'd like us to cover,

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if you'd like to be a guest on the show,

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you can also reach out to us using that form

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and let us know or email us,

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info@podcasteditermastermind.com.

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'Cause we would love to hear from you.

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And we've got one more.

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Steve says that we love you, Jennifer.

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- Hence the metronome comment.

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- Yeah, yeah.

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I think that's all we got tonight.

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So we'll call it before I beat the dead horse

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or some other cliche like that.

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I've been Bryan Enspinger.

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You can find me at toptieraudio.com.

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And this has been.

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- I'm Jesse McEwen, Tansy Aster Academy.

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- And I'm Jennifer Longworth,

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bourbonbarrelpodcasting.com.

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- Oh, and Jesse,

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we should let you do a quick plug for Tansy Aster Academy

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and what you do there.

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'Cause you got some good stuff going on over there.

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- Tansy Aster Academy is where I help podcast editors

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or podcasters, anybody who's looking for ways to improve

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their editing skills, I help you with them.

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- And unable to join us were Carrie

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Caulfield.

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You can find her at Carrie

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.land and Daniel Abendroth.

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You can find him at rothmedia.audio.

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For those that were able to join us live, thank you,

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especially for your comments and your questions

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and all of that stuff.

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And if you listen later, we're super glad to have you.

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You can find us at podcasteditorsmastermind.com.

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Now I'm gonna try and click the button and do the thing.

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So bye.

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- Bye.

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(upbeat music)

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- How much is that?

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(upbeat music)

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- Hey, there we go.

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I forgot to play the music.

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(upbeat music)

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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