Casper ter Kuile went into divinity school as a gay atheist, and emerged with a rich spiritual life that is not anchored in a specific religious tradition.

Casper is an author, podcaster and community leader who’s interested in the future of communion and religion and is passionate about understanding how people make meaning, experience beauty, and form relationships, in a time when traditional institutions are falling by the wayside.

He grew up in a Steiner school in Sussex, which was focused on creativity, nature, ritual, and community. After University, he was involved in mobilising young people around climate change, but eventually lost hope and suffered burnout. This led him to study at Harvard Divinity School, where he explored the relationship between change on the inside and change in the world outside.

Links

• Connect with Casper on LinkedIn
• The Power of Ritual: Turning Everyday Activities into Soulful Practices – Casper’s book
• The Nearness – Casper’s community
• Harry Potter and the Sacred Text – Casper’s podcast
• The Nearness of You – Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong

Hello.

Welcome back to Peripheral Thinking, a series of conversations with academics advisors, entrepreneurs and activists, all championing, working on ideas from the margins from the periphery.

This week I spoke to Casper ter Kuile.

Now Casper is a very interesting soul.

He is.

Uh, the, the author of the book, The Power of Ritual, which was actually how I came to his work, uh, which we talk about a lot in this.

And he's also the co-founder of the Sacred Design Lab, the co-creator of the podcast, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.

And as the, the kind of leader and creator of an online community called the Nearness, uh, which we talk about a lot at the end of this conversation.

Now, I very much hope you enjoy this conversation with Casper as much as I did, uh, touches on topics and ideas and themes, which I could have spent all day talking about.

Uh, but we hope this is a good beginning for you.

Casper, welcome to Peripheral Thinking.

Thanks so much for having me.

Glad to be with you.

Yeah, likewise.

Really keen to, uh, looking forward to getting into the, the conversation.

So maybe we could just start a little bit, you can give me a little bit of a rundown.

How is it you spend your time.

Well, I, I often joke that I spend my time thinking about the future of community and religion, uh, which is definitely the questions that obsess me of how, how will we make meaning, how do we experience beauty?

How are we held in relationship?

In a time when so many of the kind of traditional institutions that have done that throughout history are falling by the wayside, which often if you get into a cab, you know, take takes the taxi driver a minute just to be like, what do I do with that

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, sorry.

There's a roadblock

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, shit.

That raises a good question.

What generally is the response to, to that as a, as a, as an invitation, as a line?

Well, there, there, there is a joke that a lot of, you know, people who are religious professionals, so maybe a priest or a rabbi or something will often pretend to work for a small nonprofit or be an accountant in public spaces because when you do bring up spirituality, religion, , it genuinely is seen as a, an invitation for someone to share their thoughts and feelings about that.

So sometimes you get really beautiful stories of like, oh wow, I've actually been, you know, a, B, and C I've been thinking about this.

I just had that experience.

Or sometimes you get stories of real pain and suffering of, you know, when I was a child, the nun did this, or, you know, I hate religion because of A, B, and C.

And so it is, it is quite.

Uh, an invitation for people to share even when it's not meant to be

. Ben: Yeah,

But what, what I like about it is that it nearly always gets to the heart of things.

You know, there's very little room for, for small talk when you bring up these kind of big existential questions.

And so, uh, you get, you get to know people pretty quickly, uh, when you're sitting next to 'em on the plane.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

And I guess it is an invitation is the, the key thing there.

It's an in, it's an invitation.

So curious about, so you are an Englishman living in New York?

Well, my, my parents are both Dutch, so I, I, I was born and raised in England, but Speaking

Oh, so you're not an Englishman at all?

no, exactly.

Well, I, I claim, I, I claim 'em all now.

I've got, I've ended up with yeah, multiple passports, but, um, I grew up in Sussex, so not at all, far from, from where you are.

Um, and very formative for me was the experience of growing up in the a Waldorf school, a Steiner school, um, which, you know, For people who aren't familiar with it, is very focused on creativity and nature and ritual and community and singing.

And so, you know, there's, there's some strong memories of me as a six-year-old kind of being a gnome, walking through some ritual experience with, uh, you know, into an advent spiral with greenery on the floor with an unlit candle in my hand, walking into this spiral and having it lit by some wonderful woman in robes and then walking out while beautiful music was playing.

And I, I think the gift for me from that experience was just this real.

Sense of, of the kind of holistic development of the child.

So when I switched schools and I chose to leave when I was 10, I was learning how to spell because I, you know, it is just a very different approach to education.

And I share all of that because I went from this kind of very community.

A little bit, you know, uwi wooey space into a very traditional English prep school and then boarding school and, you know, that had its own gifts in terms of intellectual rigor and, and kind of academic achievement.

But it, it, those two worlds always felt very, um, distinct from one another.

And I think part of my work has always been, uh, you know, in college, I, I did a joint degree of history in sociology for my Masters I did a joint degree of policy and divinity.

And so I'm, I'm always kind of straddling these two worlds and.

That feels true now as well, thinking about the secular and the sacred and, you know, the, the profound and the, um, you know, sense of levity.

So I, I like being that kind of, this phrase sounds a little bit pompous, but kind of an edge person, you know, sitting between these two worlds.

And mostly because you get to appear really smart if you take an idea from one place to another where they haven't heard about it.

So, you know, if, if only for that, it's, uh, that, that's been a big part of my life, even from, from the very beginning.

And so studying in America was, was what happened there?

Yeah, that's right.

I, I, my first career, honestly, after, after university, I got really involved in, in mobilizing young people around climate change.

So I was really passionate as, as a young activist, and I think as so many people who throw themselves into activism and perhaps, especially with climate change, I, I had one of those moments where I just lost hope and had that burnout experience where the change I wanted to make in the world outside was so much bigger than what I felt I was able to do.

And it was kind of crushing.

And so I ended up, um, I was very lucky enough to have a wonderful mentor who sat me down and said, uh, Casper, I'm going to be your coach cuz you're never going to ask for help.

And so that was a great gift to me because she really asked questions about, well, why do you like singing with other people?

And what is it about bringing people together for a, you know, a meal or?

What's important about community?

And it just opened this kind of window in my own reflection to think not just about changing the world outside, but also thinking about change on the inside and the relationship between those two.

And so I ended up going to America for a public policy degree, but very quickly found myself talking to these people from the divinity school.

and I was a gay atheist, so I, you know, divinity school I thought was just for like Catholic priests or something.

I, I really had no idea.

But what I found was that Divinity School was the place where the things that I was kind of inherently good at, you know, that just came naturally to me.

That was the place where those skills were honed and sharpened and rigor was applied, and, and tradition was understood.

And suddenly I realized, you know, oh, I've never quite fit into a traditional business or government or nonprofit role.

Cause it turns out my work is religion.

I just didn't know it, and so that was a, a real gift for me to kind of feel like coming home.

To a discipline really, um, that I just had not been raised with at all.

And so what, what were the things, so you say the, the, the things you were naturally good at, and you've gotta find out what, what are those things?

On.

And that is gonna sound very self-involved, isn't it?

Well, I mean, Nhat, I'm naturally a

self-involved.

My husband will tell you that it's not gonna be difficult.

Um, uh, Well, I love bringing people together.

You know, I, I remember hearing that question.

What do you do?

Even when you, when you are not supposed to, you know?

And, and that's such an indicator often of like what our natural gifts are.

And, um, for me, definitely bringing people together, you know, whether it's involving people in a project or finding.

And I think this is, you know, somewhat con common for an entrepreneur kind of character where you are, you are bringing people an ideas and resources together to make something happen that wasn't there before.

And I'm, I'm definitely a serial starter.

I love creating things, you know, when there wasn't something before you have an idea, you figure out who can help you and where you can get some money to make it happen and then you make it happen.

And um, you know, after that it's easy to lose interest cuz while we've done it now, so, um, that, that, that was definitely a part of it.

I love having conversations.

I love learning about people's stories.

I love figuring out the connections between different ideas and fusing them together in a way that can delight people.

I love to sing with people.

I, you know, I love being outside.

I love thinking through reading a text and talking about it.

So, or you can see how all of these things kind of translate quite nicely into, um, you know, a religious context.

But I, I think maybe the thing that I've learned that comes naturally that, that surprised me is I don't mind being the first one to have a go.

And so that idea of kind of learning in public and, um, even if you look a bit like a tit, like in front of other people, it gives other people the, maybe the, the, the confidence to try it too.

And so I, I, I've really enjoyed.

You know, learning a new spiritual practice and talking about it.

So then other people are like, oh, maybe I'll try that too.

Um, and so that, that kind of willingness to, I guess to, to learn in public and to model something, um, I really enjoy doing.

And so, uh, so, because I've always really been very curious about the divinity school that you talk, just because I don't really know anything about it, but it's like one of those things which, which may be because, well, it's a, which is, it's an idea which exists somewhere in my consciousness where there's something about it, which feels extremely sort of powerful and compelling.

But I obviously don't know anything about it.

There's a, a few people I've kind of happened across over the years.

But there's something very kind of, you know, powerful and compelling about what it sort of represents in my mind.

And I, I guess that's because of the spirit of what is studied there,

Well, and it's also very different from the uk.

I don't think we have the same kind of thing in England.

I mean, there's, there's places to study theology and of course that's part of a da Vinti school training is that you, you learn about, you know, Aquinas and Augustine and these great kind of theological scholars of old going, going through time.

But what was interesting, and I was so lucky to be at Harvard because there's a lot of DA Vinti schools in the US that wouldn't have had this.

But Harvard from, from at least for the last 50, 60 years has been very intentionally multi-faith.

So wasn't just anchored in a Christian context.

There were professors and resources and students from across different, different faith traditions, but also as someone who was coming in with no faith, there were other people like me there.

I wasn't a total weirdo .Um, and importantly, the training that we were getting was not just for people who were going to become a minister or a priest or a rabbi, um, but also for scholars, so people going into a PhD program.

So it was this really interesting mix of, of kind of theory and practice being put together.

And there was a real openness for people coming in like me who said, Well, textual analysis and, and, and reading and, and, and studying and talking about text is interesting.

But the Bible doesn't really do it for me.

Like I didn't, it's not a text that feels like it's mine.

It's interesting, but it doesn't feel like it's something that I'm really passionate about or really connected to, at least at the beginning.

I wanna do that with a book that I do feel like I have ownership over, or that, that I have a relationship with.

And so when I walked into a professor's office and said, um, you know, I've got, can we do Harry Potter as a sacred text instead?

I wasn't laughed out of the room.

I mean, that, that there were questions, but it, it, there was a, it was a real place of openness and, and innovation and experimentation.

And so I was encouraged to kind of explore those ideas.

That might have been a bit w.

on the periphery, you might say.

Periphery.

On the periphery.

but that, you know, I think ended up not all of them, but some of those ideas have, have struck a chord and found an audience.

And so that, for me, that was what was so exciting about divinity school, is it was a way to connect the best of tradition with the most kind of open and exciting elements of innovation.

So we'll, we'll come back to, uh, Harry Potter in a moment cause it's a good way into, uh, certainly one of your books that, that I've read.

I'm just kind of curious, so you went into Divinity School without a Faith, did you Come Outta Divinity School without a faith?

that's a difficult question, Ben.

Well the first thing that happens is you completely deconstruct the idea of what is faith, right?

What is religion, what is spirituality?

And I definitely came in with very kind of static categories.

I was like, well, if you're religious, it's cuz you believe in God.

And for me that God then was, you know, you believe in some sort of Christian God.

Well the fir, the first thing I learned was, you know, if you look at religion globally, that centrality of belief is really quite a Christian, even a Protestant understanding of what religion is about.

It's so much more about what you practice in different contexts, much less about what you believe.

And so the first way to think about, well, did I come out with, with a religious identity is like, do I, do I practice religious things?

Yes, I do.

I certainly have a bunch of practices that are important to me.

Uh, I, I try and keep a Tech Sabbath where I turn off my phone and my laptop on a Friday.

Um, you know, I host a monthly singing group in my house that, for me, is really kind of spiritually nourishing and, you know, all, all sorts of things like that, that, that, that, that become important.

But did I walk out with a sort of, okay, I'm getting baptized, I'm entering this particular denomination.

No, I didn't.

And, uh, sometimes there's a sadness in that because I kind of, I wish I could do, you know what, like I wish I could believe that Jesus rose from the dead and just be like, okay, I'll be part of the club and, you know, it all fits.

And I, I mean there's a lot of that story that I love, right?

This, this kind of metaphoric like beautiful image of, of life after death and in a nature context I'm all in, right?

It's springtime just about, uh, where, where, where we are right now.

And you know, to see this dead earth come alive with, with new plants and growth and flowers and daffodils and crocuses, you know, that, that is an amazing story.

But there are some of those kind of.

Articles of faith that at least a lot of people say they believe that I'm just not willing to kind of accept in, in, in that way.

So, um, all of that is to say I've come out with a really rich spiritual life, but not a specific religious identity that sits comfortably at least.

So that, that is then the, that's the distinction for you, a kind of rich spiritual life that isn't sort of rooted or anchored in a specific religious tradition.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I want to caveat that too, forgive me.

But it's, I think one of the other things that often happens for people like me who didn't grow up with anything specific is that you kind of, you know, I still grew up in England, so it's broadly culturally Christian context, and that's the kind of story and tradition that I know best.

Um, but it's also the one that's kind of painful, you know, especially as a gay kid, you know, in the early two thousands it was a very different time and so I definitely felt judged and rejected by, by the institution of the Christian Church.

So, you know, If it rejected me, I was like, oh, fuck you too.

Yeah.

Like I just, yeah, exactly.

And, uh, I'll win.

Um, so, uh, but, you know, and so I ended up, thanks this wonderful mentor, uh, Charlotte Miller, you know, she was like, well try out this meditation practice.

And so I was really interested in Buddhism and I moved to the US and ended up surrounded by wonderful Jewish friends and teachers, and so really fell in love with a lot of Judaism, and I think this is a common pattern that often we step outside of our home context or tradition, and then over time, maybe we soften a little bit.

It certainly was true for me.

And I kind of looked at Christianity through the eyes of what I'd fallen in love with, with these different traditions and then found the beauty of the Christian tradition.

And so I, I, I wouldn't say that I'm a, a total kind of free floater in a spiritual landscape.

I, I definitely.

Feel, you know, most connected to it, to a Christian context, even if it doesn't, if it doesn't quite fit.

Uh, that's, that's the, that's the theological language that, that I use, if that makes sense.

And it's interesting because I sort of can identify with, with that too.

Cause I, it was sort of growing up, uh, certainly the family I grew up in, it was sort of like, you know, religion, no, we are not religious.

We are not religious people or religion is bad.

Religious is so, like my sort of family on my mom's side were actually, um, American Jews.

So they sort of pretended that they weren't Jewish really.

It was like their, their sort of their thing.

So actually, Kind of a lot of the ideas we sort of inherited was, you know, was kind of, religion is bad, all this.

That was certainly the, those kind of stories I was telling.

And I think as I kind of, as I got older and um, certainly my kind of roots back into the, this kind of whole area of exploration, probably not similar, so was kind of Buddhism and then I was kind of, was really interesting, the idea of kind of the Eastern philosophies who, which seemed to kind of to offer me the opportunity of sort of depth and sort of ideas which transcend time a little bit, uh, without needing to get kind of sort of messy with the idea of kind of God and Jesus and I dunno if I can do that story.

But it, like you say, the really good way of putting it, it kind of, sort of softens up and allows you to kind of open up to, you know, I guess the kind of wonder and the beauty in, in all of these stories really.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I, I think the thing I, that most excites me, because religion is never static, right?

Religions change over time, depending on the context and the culture and the technologies that are available to them.

And I think we are in a, in a, in an era where the context is changing so rapidly, I mean, just the internet as one powerful force is already changing how religion acts and reacts.

And so, um, one of the things I'm most excited about is how, how are we creating the future of religion?

Like what, what does something like the two of us speaking, even though we're on different sides of the world, mean for how we imagine what a good life is, what good ethics are, what, what lives after death?

Like, all of these kind of big questions.

They're shaped by the context that they're in.

And so I'm always really interested in, you know, as a tradition transforms, what do we hold onto and what do we let go of?

And so, you know, I, I definitely feel a great amount of creativity when engaging, you know, Christianity.

I'm like, well, it's already changed so much.

Like it's gonna continue changing.

And anyone who tells you different is lying, uh, or doesn't know their history.

Um, so, so how are we gonna change it now?

And I think that's part of what I came out of DA Vinti school with was, was a real understanding of the value of religion in a way that I didn't understand before.

And I think in particular, living in the world that we do, where there are so many.

systemic pressures on our time, uh, on our, on our psyche, uh, you know, just the amount of advertisement that we encounter every single day, you need a really strong counterbalance to some of those drivers towards isolation and productivity and everything else to sustain our souls.

A a and, and that's really how I understand the purpose of religion is like, how does it help us be in relationship with one another around the things that are most important to us?

Um, you know, the kind of things that on your deathbed, you, you, you think about, um, and it's not your inbox.

Uh, at least I hope it's not so, so that, that for me is the value.

Of spirituality and religion is, it gives us an anchor to ground ourselves in, to withstand the kind of insanity of the life around us.

Yeah, I mean that, that, that really, really resonates and in a way it's kind of, you know, it's, it's sad or I guess sort of the, the kind of the ideas particularly so where, you know, I grew up, you grew up, which is, you know, so, you know, the west whatever, where kind of ideas around kind of religion, it's become such a sort of pigeonholed thing in a sense that, uh, it kind of, you know, the, the, the first layer, also, I guess I can even say from my own experience, the the first layer is one away

Yes, absolutely.

Well, and for good reason.

I mean, it's been a shit show/ like I mean, I, I talk about institutional failure and mission creep.

I mean, it, it is just, Maddening, honestly.

And it's not to say that there aren't wonderful people within these institutions, but just, I mean, just looking at the Church of England at the moment, you know, it's ended up because of colonialism with this kind of global communion.

And so yes, you understand that, uh, you know, the context in Nigeria is very different from the context of Canterbury.

But like talk about being out of step around something like, you know, same sex marriage in, in the UK.

And it immediately, like, if you can't get that right, it is bloody hard to try and be relevant on something else or to, to be a credible voice.

And so I, I, I, I do kind of rage against these institutions for getting in their own way sometimes.

For just not understanding how people's lives are actually being lived, um, and the harm that they've done, you know.

And, and so I, I really understand that that first step is one of rejection.

That was true for me too.

But I think there's more there.

I think if the journey ends with that rejection, we, we are missing out on something.

for sure.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

And it's kind of interesting cuz like you were kind, you know, maybe kind of institutionally, one of the things that they struggle with is actually embracing change.

Interesting.

You were sort of talking about this is, you know, essentially, you know, kind of the change sort of living through us in a way.

And the, you know, what the religion is, how it's defined, how it exists, how it thrives is a constantly changing thing.

And I guess one of the, which, which happens, I guess, Lots of organizations is the organization gets fixed and holds onto a certain idea idea because it's a way of sustaining itself while everything else changes.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and you end up serving the people who stay rather than paying attention to the people who've left.

And so you end up kind of built, you know, digging deeper into that, I don't wanna say conservative, but that kind of reactionary group of people that, that, that you're serving.

And I think that's, that's the challenge, is you actually, if, certainly in the British context, if you look at the Church of England now, people inside the church often just speak a completely different language.

Like they're using words that most people are like, what do you mean?

Like evangelism and ministry and like, you know, recta, like, what are these words?

It, it is a different language.

Um, and I find that a helpful kind of illustration of this cultural gap that just forms.

And you know, I think, uh, I can moan about these things forever.

But anyway, that, I think that's a real challenge for the institutions to, to stay in relationship with, with people outside so that they are willing to be changed as an institution.

Um, and I, for me, that's always what it comes back to is those relationships.

One of the best projects I've been involved with here is a project called Nuns and Nones, which brought together, you know, Catholic nuns in their sixties, seventies, and eighties with, uh, millennial N O N E S, nones.

So people who were unaffiliated religiously.

And those relationships cross, cross generation, of course, but also across religious lines were so beautiful because as, as the relationships grew, suddenly was, you know, one of the young people in the room said, at some point, all I want is to transform my life with other people, to serve other people, to serve others.

And one of these older women just said, yes, that is what we call religious life.

Uh, and so like suddenly you found this just deep, deep common humanity and, and shared sense of direction that if we'd stayed at that level of linguistic difference and, and cultural difference, you'd never have found.

The only other person I've come across who went to Divinity school, uh, who, like you see a kind of prolific creator of things, kind of hugely entrepreneurial.

And so I dunno whether that is a kind of part of the kind of product or of the system, but I think I kind of come back to some of the other projects that you've created, like the one you spoke of and the, and the, the, the Nearness project, want to come back to, but maybe we should, we should just pause for a minute and go back to Harry Potter.

Cuz you kind of made reference there to.

Uh, to, to, to some, to, well actually maybe cuz who the, my contacting of you actually, because I, I'd read your book Power of Ritual, uh, which again, like is I think just immediately sort of caught my attention initially cuz this idea of kind of ritual, the idea of being able to, I guess, sort of bring intention to things, the idea of kind of putting boundaries on things so that, uh, you don't kind of, sort of just move, sort of swept along through the kind of river of our mind and the river of life.

And I think a kind of yearning and a curiosity around ritual, which is maybe why the kind of book caught my attention.

But there's, there's quite a few brilliant sort of examples in there.

Maybe, maybe give, just give us a little, little overview into the book if you wouldn't mind.

That's very beautifully described.

I appreciate that, Ben.

Um, yeah, you.

. I think one of the big things we're looking for is, is that sense of connection.

And connection with ourselves, with one another, with, with the natural world around us, and then with something bigger that we might not always have language for.

And what I found through my studies and, and, and you know, more generally learning and practicing was that when we are able to set time apart, as you said, kind of, you know, stepping out of the, just the constant flow of, of busyness, that, that we're able to tap into that deeper knowing of our inherent connectedness.

And rituals are an incredible way of doing that.

And I really mean ritual in a very capacious sense, a very broad understanding.

So it's not just, you know, complex, uh, you know, uh, uh, incense rituals in, in, in far off countries.

I, I really mean moments of.

You know, before the kids, the kids fall asleep.

I always give them a cuddle.

You know, those, those, those little moments of everyday connection where we center the things that are most important to us.

And, you know, that can be rewatching a favorite movie.

It can be a, a specific walk that you take to, you know, visit a grave of someone who you love or, or whatever it is.

There's so many things that are built into our lives that we might not give, give their their proper due.

And so the, the idea of the book is to really look at those things that we're already doing, the habit, the habits that we have, and trying to elevate.

, uh, to become, to become a ritual.

Um, and so I talk about these three key components to, to do that, which are the intention word that you just mentioned.

You know, if you're coming to a practice with a particular desire, to experience that, that connection that I mentioned, or maybe a particular virtual value, you know, of generosity, I'm, I'm doing this cuz I want to, I want to feel more courageous or I wanna feel more generous or feel more grateful.

Um, so start with, with clarifying your intention.

Secondly, you find a way to pay attention while you're doing the activity.

Um, so you know, this in a congregational context I think is why there's so much music and stained glass and use of silence and, and, and movement in prayer.

It's all there to help us pay attention to what we're doing, so you're not listening to a podcast at the same time.

Although this podcast is of course, highly recommended.

Um, but.

But so the, the, you start with that intention, pay attention while you're doing it, and then repetition over time.

You come back to this ritual, uh, whether it's every day, every week, every month, every year, something that, that, that, that kind of layers on top of itself, this, this experience of meaning.

Um, so, you know, we use the same Christmas decorations every year.

Not just because they're around, but because it reminds me of when I was a child and now I'm passing that on to my kids.

You know, that that sense of, of continuity over time comes from repetition.

And so, um, yeah, that, that book was really a, a hope and introduction for people to, to kind of claim the rituals that might be hidden in their own lives and to, to unearth them and to take them seriously.

And one of the things that, that certainly came time and time and again, Was people rereading their favorite books.

And one of those books is, is the Harry Potter series.

And, uh, my, my dear friend and co-founder, uh, for this project, Vanessa Zoltan was a, a fellow student of mine in divinity school.

And she had this great little group that she was, Reading Jane Ayre with.

But not just as a kind of fan or, you know, academic discussion.

They were really using the book as a, as a way to explore themes in their own lives around mental health, around love, around loss, around, uh, revenge.

You know, really juicy topics.

And, uh, you know, th this group of five women kept getting, getting together every Wednesday, and I, I was able to join them once and I was like, well, this is a cool idea, but how about we do it with a book?

People actually read?

Yeah.

And so, um, partly because I was really interested in this idea of myth and like, what are the contemporary myths and stories and you know, what moves us And, and obviously the Potter Books not only are, are, are, are beloved by the generation of readers that read it when it came out, but there's a whole, you know, those people have had kids who now love it themselves.

There's a whole active fandom out there, um, which has ob obviously been challenged by JK Rowling later which we, we can talk about as well.

But where this project went was to start reading the Harry Potter books chapter by chapter as if it was a sacred text.

Um, and so it became a podcast where, where we did traditional sacred reading practices drawn mostly from Christianity and Judaism, uh, of, you know, old ways in which people have engaged texts and asked questions about what's right, what's good, um, you know, what does it mean to forgive someone?

What can we learn from this passage about what forgiveness looks like and, and actually is it more complex than that?

And how, what if we just paid attention to this moment where Hermoine's brushing her hair?

What does that tell us?

You know.

So kind of really getting nearly obtusely interested in the text, not just as a destination, but really as a mirror to look back at our own lives.

And see things are new from the vantage point of the text.

And so we ended up getting to number two in the iTunes podcast charts, which don't ask me how that happened, uh, but

You should do a podcast on that.

Well, it, it, I, I, I wish I could replicate that kind of success with every project, but that's another story.

But what was really amazing was that we ended up having this, you know, significant audience of people traveling with us through the seven books, um, who then formed, you know, local groups where they would get together in more than a hundred towns and cities around the world.

And when Covid hit that audience, self-organized a mutual aid fund.

And so it was just this amazing illustration of like, there are new structures for community and meaning making that are possible if we have some imagination.

And so for me, that was a real illustration, not just of ha here's a cool way to use a, a traditional, you know, spiritual practice in a new way, but really also like what's possible about how we might live together, and how we might make meaning together in, in the future.

You made reference to JK Rowling later.

What was that?

Well, she came out as just a massive transphobia.

Um, and you know, that that's been, it's been confusing honestly, because the whole story is about, you know, the, the book that she wrote was about how do you pay attention to people at the margins, you know, whether it's the house selves or whether it's the, the wizard supremacy that you have in the book.

So there's, there's so much of that stuff and, and it's, it's kind of bewildering and so, and very sad, honestly.

Cause I think a lot of people felt really betrayed by it.

And we, we really had to think through like, is this still a story you want to pay attention to?

You know, and I think, we, we ended up really engaging that question with our audience and, and listening especially to, you know, trans and non-binary people, especially about what they thought.

And of course there's a wide range of feeling within that group of people too.

And ultimately where we landed was, you know, these, we've never read these books to try and understand JK Rowling.

That's, that's not, that was never the purpose.

And now, and having published a book myself, I do, I do think this is true.

Once a book is out there doesn't belong to the author anymore.

It's about the relationship the reader has to the text.

And so, um, ultimately we, we, we, we continued and, and have, yeah, I think really wrestled with that question.

And honestly, that is a very representative, uh, kind of story, even within religion is that you can fall in love with something and whether it's a tradition or a practice or a person, and you will always be disappointed, uh, you know, there's, there's always gonna be let down.

You can find a community where you're like, wow, these are my people.

And then four years in, you know, there's some leadership crisis or someone sleeps with someone or money is mismanaged or someone burns out and you feel let down or whatever it is, that's such an important part of, of a, of a religious community, is that, is that kind of, um, loss of hope, uh, and, and reckoning with, with the frailty of our, of our human life.

So, uh, yeah, I think it was instructive in its own way to e even amidst a lot of pain.

And I'm kind of curious, what do you think it was that did so catch the attention or you capture the, the sort of, the imagination, I guess, of, of the, of the growing community?

I think it's cuz we helped people take seriously something that they loved.

You know, people were rereading these books every year.

It reminded them of their mom or they watched these movies every Christmas time or, you know, it was a story.

I think that was not just something that people loved, it's that it's that they lived it.

You know, which house are you in?

You know, oh, I'm a Gryffindor.

Well that has, that means all sorts of things.

And so like, it's not just a, a story that's out there, it's really integrated into.

People's sense of self.

Not everyone, but a significant number of those readers really, really live this story.

They identify with a character, they, it's comfort.

Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's something that they came, kept coming back to.

And what we did was not only say like, yes, isn't that wonderful, but then.

Push them to really take it seriously and be rigorous about, okay, well you say you love this character.

Let's look at this passage.

What does that mean?

Um, and so it wasn't reading it like a fan, it was reading it like, yeah, like a sacred text.

Like, and, and, and when you read a text, not for entertainment, but for kind of, I was about to say enlightenment, but that's, that's maybe a little much.

But when, when, when you're, when you're reading a.

The whole point is that you are open to be changed by it, right?

It should challenge you.

Um, that's part of why these stories I think are, are, are good because they ask big questions and so you're forced to reflect on those questions then in your own life.

And, and that, you know, I've reread those books enough times now where just reading them for entertainment value is kind of meH.

But that if you come at it with that discipline of, of, of, uh, yeah, asking those big questions in structured ways, an old text can always become new again.

Cuz it is really interesting the idea of kind of reading something, being open to it, changing you, of course.

Cause we live in a, we live in a time where, Kind of increasing more and more people just holding on tighter and tighter and tighter to a narrower set of their own ideas.

Uh, and in a way, kind of being open to change I think kind of can feel risky, can't it?

And maybe actually this kind of risk is part of what is sort of entrenching more and more behavior and actually how we invite people back to the safety of kind of not knowing for a while.

I love that, Ben.

And, and it's one of the reasons why we were so eager that even on the show, it's not one person reading it.

It was at least two.

And so there was always, you know, you, you can't be a fundamentalist if you're in community, cuz you're just gonna encounter difference, you know?

And, and, that is important because it means you can't get too far in a reading of your own.

And, and often, you know, I would read something and be like, well, obviously it means this.

I mean, at the very beginning of this project, Vanessa, who, who grew up as a kind of atheist Jew, I said, Vanessa, you sure you're comfortable with this text?

It's such a Christian text.

Like, you know, he literally dies and comes back to life at the end, like it is such a Christian story.

And she said, what?

It's the ultimate Jewish story.

It's about a fascist dictator who literally like tattoos people who, you know.

I was like it.

She was like, can't get more Jewish than this.

And so even, even that beginning was such.

Illustration that, you know, we never just read the text.

We're reading our own lives.

And I think, I think the community piece is important because if you have friendship and and relationship, the other becomes less frightening and, and maybe part of what's, you know, certainly what's driving some of that kind of, uh, uh, defensiveness is, is is the exposure without relationship, right?

You can say anything on Twitter and, and there's no boundary that holds us together.

It's just me hurling something at you and you turning around and hurling something at me.

Um, so I think, I think that that demonstration and kind of what I was saying before about what I enjoy doing about.

Having a go in public, you know, it's not that everything I said was particularly insightful on that podcast, but I think we modeled a way of being in relationship across difference, around a third thing around this book, that, that made all of us better.

And I think that's what people ended up doing at home as well.

So the, the other person I met is a guy called, uh, Varun Soni?

Yes.

Varun, Yeah, uSC.

Yay.

Yay.

So I had, I've had some, some conversation with him and I remember him saying, one of the things he's noticed in the cha in the time since he's been, I think he's the provost at usc, isn't he?

Or, or somebody,

He's the head of religious life and mental health or something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's it.

Yeah.

Dean of religious life.

And I remember him, him describing that.

Actually, one of the most common questions, and this comes to mind cause you were talking about being in relationship, one of the most common questions that people were asking, either indirectly or uh, or directly was, was really how to be friends with people?

Actually.

And you know, we, we, in a way, we are sort of, we, we've become so separate, you know, the, uh, so that point you're talking about there, about being in relationships, such an important thing and, and increasingly such a distant thing.

Yeah.

And, and I.

You know, it's, I don't, I, I really don't think it's . I don't wanna say it's our fault.

Uh, I, I, I think one of the, one of the reasons why that's happened is because of this decay of the, of the containers that held us in relationship previously.

Whether it was geographic that you, you know, you live in this village and these are your people, or you are part of this family, and so therefore, you know, you're connected to this family, or you're part of this congregation and you are part of this, you know, trades guild or whatever it is.

There were so many structures that held us in relationship.

Now, they also held us in hierarchy.

And so, like, again, as a gay person, like I am so grateful for the liberation movements that threw some of those, you know, structures apart because it allowed, it allowed so many of us to, to be ourselves in a way that we weren't able to.

Um, so I don't wanna romanticize it, but as we've gained those freedoms, what we've lost are the structures that held us in relationship.

And so now as we are thinking exactly that question of like, well, how do I make a friendship?

It's all on you, right?

It's not like you're gonna see the same person in the same place every week, because we all go to the pub on, you know, whatever.

Everyone's doing their own thing.

Everyone's in their own niche.

You know, the long tail of the internet means that, It, we're just more isolated.

We spend more time alone.

We live by ourselves more.

You know, the, the, there's so many of those indicators that just reveal that, that isolation.

And so the work of like building a relationship not only becomes, uh, harder, but it's also scarier because the, the, the potential for rejection is so much more profound.

Um, and so one, that's one of the reasons why I'm working on this new project is like, what are the new structures that we can opt into?

But once we've opted into them, they do hold us in relationship where our, our friendships are no longer just dependent on you going through the scheduling hell that is getting five people together for dinner?

Uh, at some point, or at least that's life in New York.

I don't know if that's true and Brighton, but just, you know, everyone has to navigate so, so many things just to sustain a friendship.

And so yeah.

What are the new containers that will hold us in relationship is one of the questions I'm most interested

right.

And so that, that you, you kind of, you mentioned there one of the new projects that you are working on.

Tell us about.

Yeah.

So the Nearness is a dedicated place to, to explore life's big questions with like-minded other people.

And the way that it works is you, uh, you sign up for a journey, you get matched with four or five other people, uh, and you spend essentially 90 minutes, uh, every week for eight weeks, uh, exploring a series of, of, of practices, big questions, reflections together.

Um, and it's, it's a, a peer facilitated experience.

So, um, you really get to know each other, um, and, and there's a wonderful sense of, um, really quite, yeah, just a lovely intimacy that grows over time.

And it's, we really provide the kind of the menu of conversations.

So it's, it's, you can show up and, and, and just jump right in.

But what's beautiful is that we have, you know, uh, lots and lots of these small groups meeting every week, uh, and, and you see the relationships grow both with one another, but also by practicing that kind of relational intentionality, people have been telling us stories about, I actually ended up using this with my partner, or I sat down with my best friend and I was like, I want you to listen to me like this.

Uh, you know, and so I, I, I'm most excited when I see the way it really helps people enrich their lives with the people they already love.

And so for me, you know, as I think about the future, you know, maybe a question a hundred years ago would've been like, what church do you go to?

I hope that we can have something like, well, what's your small group like?

Whether it's with the Nearness or somewhere else, that we all have a place that we come back to week in, week out where we know we are, we are loved as we are, where we are seen for who we are in all the good and tricky bits, um, and that we see other people with that, with that depth of, of, of generosity and, and honesty.

Um, because I think it's in those spaces.

Not only do we transform, but we are reminded of what's most important and the, and the choices, therefore, that we, that we should be making.

So yeah, the next nearest journey, uh, deadline, I think to sign up is, uh, April 16th for anyone who's interested.

And, uh, it's a lot of fun.

so it is essentially it's about being, being in small groups.

Is it, is that, is that the, the kind of the core containers that you're create?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's the core.

Yeah.

I mean there's workshops and Wonderful.

And what kind of, one of other things that we, that we do, but really the core experiences is being part of a small group like that, yeah.

And what, what are some of the questions that we might explore in that?

Well, one of my favorites is the spiritual autobiography exercise, where you tell the story of your life through the lens of your religious, spiritual, ethical life.

And so, you know, starting with your, with your childhood influences, going all the way through just a little bit like what we were doing before, um, it's so fascinating because people have.

Interesting stories, first of all.

So you, you get to know one another in a really wonderfully rich way very quickly.

But it's also amazing to realize like how much has changed in our own lives, uh, even, even in the decades that we've had.

Um, and therefore also illustrates where, where it's still to go.

You know?

So it's such an invitation afterwards, after that exercise.

Um, but we, you know, we, we've done all sorts of, uh, things.

The next journey is really around the theme of letting go.

So we'll be focusing on, um, over time, develop.

everyone's own, uh, ritual of release.

So whether it's letting go, you know, a hope maybe that hasn't worked out, or a story about yourself that's no longer true, or a grief that hasn't been, um, tended, uh, this theme is really all about exploring that, that story of letting go.

And so there'll be a, uh, a kind of ritual design element this time around, uh, which will be the, the culmination of the eight weeks.

And so, uh, what kinds of people are, are on it?

It's so interesting.

So we've had, um, obviously I'm, I'm based in the US and so definitely a lot of Americans, but we had 15 countries, uh, represented in the first journey, just over 200 people.

Um, we just had nearly about 300 people last time around, so definitely a, a real mixed geograph.

Uh, youngest I think was, was something like 22 and the oldest was in her seventies.

So def definite range of ages.

And that's part of the fun is that you end up in small groups with people.

This is one of the great things that I I think we have lost in from congregational life, is that you end up sitting next to people that you wouldn't choose to sit next to and you end up falling completely in love with them anyway.

Um, and so that's definitely been the experience of, of across real, you know, whether it's geographic or age or, or, or race or religious difference, um, there's, there's a real sense of like, wow, gosh, I would never have met you were it not for this.

Um, so that's, that's a great joy.

Um, the surprise has been that yes, there's been a lot of people who fit into that kind of spiritual but not religious bucket that, that, that's familiar to, to the conversation we've had, but also a lot of people who maybe grew up with something, rejected it, but they're still aware that there's something there that they're missing.

They're not gonna go back to synagogue, they're not gonna go back to church or, you know, but there, there's something about that ritual, there's something about that community that was important and they're, they're trying to find out, how do I hold onto the baby and throw out the bath water?

So, um, a lot of people with that kind of edge identity has have also been, uh, been participating, but it's really designed for, for wherever you are, uh, you know, on, on, uh, on a spiritual journey to, to be able to step into a group like this?

And so where, where would people find more about that, Casper?

Yes, you can go to thenearness.coop, uh, and, uh, you'll find all the information there.

Yeah, thenearness.coop.

Nearness.

That's a great name.

What's the, what was the story behind that?

Well, if you're an Ella Fitzgerald fan, you'll know the, uh, the song, the Nearness of You . But it also, it felt, it felt evocative of something beyond words, you know, this sense of presence, this sense of connection.

It's here, but it's near, you know, just that sense of, I don't know, it has an evocative quality for me that's been really rich.

And also that yes, it's, it's near, but.

It's not quite, you know, that it's something that you can't quite hold onto or control, which I think is a beautiful way of thinking about what spirituality is, is that it is a quality of presence, um, but not something that you can wield or weaponize.

And, uh, so yeah, there's, there's a lot in the name that, that really works for me.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Well, Casper, thank you very, very much for your time.

Uh, we'll include links to all of those things, uh, in the, uh, in the off mentioned show notes and whatnot.

Uh, but you know, really appreciate you taking the time.

Well, thanks for having me, Ben, and and thanks for creating this show.

It's beautiful.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Casper.

As ever, if you like what we're doing, please share it.

Please feel free to share it if you think somebody else would benefit, uh, enjoy, dislike that conversation as much as you did or you didn't, please point them to it.

Sharing is the lifeblood of what we're doing here.

And if you're interested in these conversations generally and want to be kept up to speed with new conversations as they're launched, as they're published, search up peripheral-thinking.com and you'll find all the information there.