Episode Overview

As a child, Segun Olagunju prayed for wisdom, which is the only thing that can explain a 20-something recognizing that if he’s going to make a difference in the world (Nigeria, in particular), he’s going to work backwards from being a 50-something changemaker in 2035. 

Setting out on a 30-year journey to learn business, leadership, French and return to his home country strategically, Segun realizes the path is anything but straight. 

Worse, it’s anything but *forward.* 

Through a series of humbling experiences (“only out of humiliation comes humility,” he says), Segun learns that if you’re pursuing a meaningful purpose in life, these setbacks are minor blips—and even laughable rabbit trails—in a life with a clear direction.

Upon second thought, it makes sense that a life following a North Star will occasionally take you down from mountains that you climbed and through muddy bogs in your way— and this is to say nothing of the inevitable trips and falls that come with going somewhere and doing more than just staying put. 

 But how do we even find our North Stars? Segun has wisdom to offer for that as well. As a leadership coach for individuals and organizations, Segun offers a few exercises we can do to find out what might be our purpose in life. We hope you’ll listen and give his tips a try.

Episode Links

LinkedIn

Unison Solutions (formerly eFacil)

African Leadership Academy

Question of the Day

What’s one of your most embarrassing moments that led to you feeling proud of your resolve to overcome it?

*tell us in the comments or email us at info@ilnppod.com

Books

Love Your Enemies by Arthur C. Brooks

The Dream Giver by Bruce Wilkinson

Homo Deus by Yuval Harari

Grit by Angela Duckworth

Episode Highlights

[9:57] -  Story of failure

[24:52] - What is happiness?

[29:10] - When a job finds you and humbles you

[38:35] - When searching, write a letter to your friends and family and tell them what you’re looking for

[42:30] - What is the African Leadership Academy (ALA)

[44:40] - Segun and Fin met in Narnia

[46:40] - Writing and sharing your manifesto, leaping forward in an organization

[56:00] - Segun influences schools around the globe

[58:12] - Finding your next purpose work

[67:45] - When your purpose shifts away from your vocation and to your family 

[1:13:33] - Tools

- Transition Email

- Manifesto

-Work Backward Press Release

-Strategic Outcomes Worksheet

The Interesting Lives of Normal People

Season 01 Episode 09

Guest: Segun Olagunju

Hosts: Jake Smeester, Ryan Findley, Ryan Holdeman

[00:00:13] Like you still want to keep doing it, even if it's hard. So you're

[00:00:45] Segun: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think there's a great point. Passion is probably as you talk about it, I think a lot, it's like it's probably more personal exploration. Passion is about exploring the things you're good at passionate. So those things are good. I also think your passions have to serve your purpose.

[00:01:18] Segun: when he was really young.

[00:01:35] Kids tell me to go back home to Africa. And then when I went to visit, like my sophomore year in college, they would be like, it was very clear that I didn't belong there either. They would try to scam me and ski me, cause I was talking with an accent and I was dressed like someone different.

[00:02:00] Jake: remember, he's felt that his purpose is to help the continent of Africa thrive.

[00:02:23] And sometimes steps backwards that passions and purpose can take someone shakes also drills into the importance of humility. If someone is to really stay true to their winding path, that leads to their purpose. It's our hope that Shugan story is one that will beg the question in all of us. What's my purpose.

[00:02:43] Welcome everyone. To this episode of the podcast that's currently does not have a name.

[00:02:54] Jake: It's neither. So

[00:02:59] Jake: So for anybody who's listening, KC rhymes with Jake.

[00:03:04] Jake: very stupid. Yeah.

[00:03:14] Right.

[00:03:37] And just a lot of conversation. I know that we can have super pumped to you decided to join us and chat with us today. So welcome.

[00:03:48] Jake: If you had to give yourself first question, if you had give yourself a kind of a tagline, is there a way that you would describe yourself either professionally or

[00:04:05] Jake: there's a lot there.

[00:04:06] Holdeman: just start with defining

[00:04:14] Holdeman: intrepreneur

[00:04:17] by internet, but I know I don't want to be rude intro. Yeah, no, it's actually it's interesting idea. The concept. I'm not sure where it's from, but the idea is that you can be entrepreneurial within an existing entity. And so oftentimes we only think about entrepreneurship or using those skills of entrepreneurship within the startup context.

[00:04:50] Jake: maybe before we get into kind of what some of the things that you are doing or have done, could you give us more of a background?

[00:05:03] Segun: have now? So I was born in Nigeria. I was born in Kaduna, which is Northern Nigeria. My people are from the south west, however, so they would call your bother. And so on might be part of Yorba.

[00:05:39] And yeah, that's chap, who was, it was quite a significant season in my life, actually, as we talk about the topic of sort of passion or direction or purpose I had a couple of really seminal moments, experiences in college that, that shifted, I think the trajectory of my life, but ultimately after college, I ended up joining a nonprofit called campus crusade for Christ.

[00:06:19] And they were looking for people to have to help us spin this ministry out into its own entity, separate from crusade or accrue as it's called now. And yeah, so I ended up moving down to Orlando, Florida as a missionary for my first job, I would recognize probably about halfway through that year of ministry.

[00:06:57] Holdeman: I'm actually curious. I know we've got way more to unpack, but I'm curious to hear more about, you, when you go do a year of, what's supposed to be a, passion filled mission oriented job, or potentially the beginning of a career. And you're realizing that what tell us about that. Like, how'd you connect with this, isn't the right fit for me.

[00:07:17] Segun: you are opening up a cam B cam myths. So all the dirt. So I often tell the story to like students and young people that, I in high school, I I was going to follow my father's footsteps. My dad was a math professor. I think he wanted us all to be engineers, as there's a kind of this very African parent thing about being an immigrant and try and find.

[00:07:56] Fornia, and it was just dope. I love the, I love macroeconomics. I love that supply demand curve. It blew my mind and I said, I want to study business. And so that's why I applied to UNC. Never seen him before. Never been there. Actually, I had been there once with my sister when she was applying two years earlier, but I didn't really care so much.

[00:08:28] But anyways, so probably two years in, you have to do is two years of pre work to get into the B-School. I ended up like my second year, last semester I left I'll tell the story because I think it's also important to have stories of like failure and where things don't work out because my life didn't work out at all for, in a straight path.

[00:09:19] So anyway, I remember I, I called him and I look, it was like, I can't, he said, I said, I'm not going to get in. They rescinded my provisional acceptance into the business school and he said I'm not going to keep paying for you to go there and do just regular economics.

[00:09:43] I don't know what was got in my mind, but probably about halfway through the summer, I've spent a lot of time thinking and reflecting and that's been, I think, a trait of mine for, since I was being young and I decided to run it. And I wish I had a copy of that letter now, but I wrote a letter to the, I think it was Karen Peters.

[00:10:27] And this education, not just for me, it's for them. And I sent that letter off. I don't know. I think it was an email must have been email. And I don't know, I just waited. I don't know what I was thinking. I was doing summer RA. I hadn't really, I hadn't packed my stuff. I don't know. I can't, I was just.

[00:11:01] Like that sense of purpose. So I think it was even more than passionate. It was a very clear sense of purpose, right? That, that this was, I was here for a reason. And so anyway, fast forward to senior year, and I'm taking this class with a professor. I really like professor Dido marketing professor, but he's teaching this class and he started a couple of years back called the dark side of globalization, UNC, the Nike school.

[00:11:43] But then also he starts to introduce all these ways business can work to help people. And I learned about like the organic cotton industry and fair trade. And I think I don't think I'd ever heard of a nonprofit asleep before that class, but this idea that you could do well and do good, that you could, that I could use my analytical thinking to meet where I think ultimately I think God has given me a heart of mercy, to care for people. And that was powerful. And that really changed the direction of my life. Cause I was going to go into banking probably straight away.

[00:12:30] So it's like from such certainty and from such like pursuit to this moment of no, this is not what I thought it was. And I was looking for a lot of things, but I went to crew, I was looking for a lot more like kind of mentorship and discipleship, but I also just had this belief.

[00:13:27] They would try to scam me and ski me, cause I was talking with an accent and I was dressed like someone different. So I didn't feel like I was one of them either. And this idea of going back home and. Being a value and offering something back home is, has just been in my heart for a long time.

[00:13:57] I dunno if I heard it from somewhere, but I did something when she, when I started to do like a backwards plan and I start to say, okay, if I'm looking at all the leaders there that people talk bad about in Nigeria, like what do I need to be different than them? And so I started to think, and I was like, I need to have, this is one of the reasons, Finn might appreciate this.

[00:14:34] So I had the opportunity to join the best small business bank in America, BB and T I need to go back there, like I didn't do it, learn how they do it. And then begins to just think about all these things that I would need. And w actually, what was powerful though, was when I was, I think I was reading the book called the master plan of evangelism or something of that nature, but I think this picture for me of my mind in that moment, this idea that.

[00:15:13] But actually even more than that. So I think about like people who really make an influence on them, even older than that, they're like in their fifties and sixties, right? Like people who are like, who are producing their masterworks, their masterpieces, you're 50 to 60. So I remember just this weight lifting off of me.

[00:15:50] And that really shaped the trajectory of really the next five, six years of my life. I had a very clear picture

[00:16:03] So you're to pick those things up. So you're realizing something that you're isn't going to fit into the role you're currently in, and you need to go accumulate a number of experiences in a number of places.

[00:16:24] I don't think I remember any of my professors names in college so well done. It makes me realize that I didn't learn anything in college. Th the other thing that you said that really stuck out to me, and I think this is, and again, it just goes into. Having a white evangelical outlook on so many things, just taints the way you look at stuff is I, you said you were a missionary too in Orlando and cause just so often in white evangelical American, we're like, oh, we're going to be a missionary to Africa.

[00:17:08] Did you ever feel like it was there ever a sense that Hey, I should be doing ministry or was it just Hey, this is a good opportunity. That's in front of me right now. So

[00:17:25] And so that was always my sense of it. Yeah. If I had to, if I'm honest, I never did any evangelism. I was there. I was always very scared of that part of it. And then I read a book actually at cruise crew that was really powerful, which is about being a contagious Christian. And basically this idea that, you don't, there's not only one way to do evangelism or you can do it relationally.

[00:18:08] This is what is. What I love about the space. And so I would say if someone comes to me and people always come to me asking for advice and, I pray for wisdom a lot as a kid. Let's just say that. And I would just say, look, I'd rather spend a whole night with a friend and have to figure out my work later than say, oh, I got to study that.

[00:18:44] And then there's like a prophetic word that goes out. And one of the prophetic words that came out was basically like that, this person saw me as a minister, but not like a typical minister, like doing, leading a flock in a different kind of way, or, serving equipping the flock in a different kind of way than typical.

[00:19:09] Jake: I decided in college to choose friends over grades, but it was just like going to parties and playing board.

[00:19:17] Holdeman: your, was your dad on board for that hell's note,

[00:19:37] It was just like, go wherever you want. And. And he was always, even like with marriage, it was like marry whoever you want. It was just, it was a lot of freedom that they gave us. And so I always a lot of independence that they built into us. And so I was I always felt like it was my responsibility to live out the best life.

[00:20:01] Holdeman: I was listening to a podcast. Hey podcast slow. This isn't a podcast where I think it was armchair expert where they're interviewing Angela Duckworth, who wrote grit. And she was talking about our, her, they were debating a lot, like what counts as first-generation is that the generation that moves to, America or immigrants, or is that the kids born of that family?

[00:20:41] And he spent a few days thinking about it and came back and said, I'd rather be successful. And she unpacks that, like when you have the. When you have made the decision, like when you make the decision to move to another country in general, but especially when, where you're going to be very different looking than most of the people you're making a choice for something other than present happiness.

[00:21:10] Segun: but that's not even it's not even, that's not even what's that word, that sort of false equivalence or whatever. That's it's a it's that's a weak fight, all psychotomy, yeah. The dichotomy is weak because, one, cause I had to think about, and I had to come to grips with this idea of what is happiness. And then he was like, oh yeah, you can do for your happiness. But where I realized that. Happiness is momentary, it's fleeting. And so it would be nice, started talking about, about, and think of a lot about it. It's like, how do I pursue joy? Like some of the things I've enjoyed the most had the most satisfaction from one of the Mo the jobs or the activities where I was just happy all the time.

[00:21:53] Do what makes you happy. And, it's interesting, I was sharing with a class, I was teaching a class I'm sharing about passion and purpose and these ladies from the grill were talking about, what does it mean to pursue passion? And basically they said, again, that's one of those sort of things that has been overdone.

[00:22:15] Holdeman: I think for sure these words are very, we simplify them and I've thought about that success versus happiness questions since hearing that interview.

[00:22:30] Fin: maybe have been leading Jake astray as we help him pursue his passion projects with super reckless riled up to yeah. To pursue

[00:22:50] So what were the next kind of like major milestones?

[00:23:12] This, you have to think that your training program at BB and T and I think I called them on a Friday and on Saturday morning they had air mail to offer to my house. And I remember, I prayed a lot about this idea of pursuing the things of God really will not put you in a worst place.

[00:23:52] It was just giving money to people who already had money. I was actually particularly excited to move to prince George's county. It was it probably black county. I was trying to help young entrepreneurs get access to capital. I just wasn't happening. This was right before the recession.

[00:24:18] Why not? And I spent a year working for this nonprofit, basically like a mentorship program. It's like a mini ALA really summer program bring kids for two summers. They get great school stuff from Georgetown, great internships and experiences. Anyway, that was like, I, that was basically my last stop on the for-profit.

[00:24:56] I've been waiting. I've been looking for like visas and I can't do it. Next job found this job found me another crazy story. I don't have a job, but I have a girlfriend who I'm in love with and I want to marry. So I did, my big brother says, why are you in Delaware, man? You don't belong here this way.

[00:25:28] So I go back to DC, stay with my cousin. And I just walk, I'm walking to like gallery place. And I just see a science as interviews happening today. And it's Potbelly's little sandwich shop and they're doing interviews for all of the city. They just go on again, bus it's like a fair, it's like an employee fair day.

[00:26:02] Like you can start working next week and hire me. And they actually have a few locations around the city, but they actually hired me to work in the location next to the bank I used to work at before I went to the nonprofit. And so it turns out that I'm working next door to my former office. And and of course, within a week's time I'm taking out the trash because I haven't made it to like, behind the counter yet.

[00:26:35] Hey. And then I kid you not after that is like a stream of BB and T people coming through and I'm guaranteed. They just trying to make sure this isn't for real he's cutting sandwiches now. And so sure enough, like the next week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays, and like I'm serving people, these are people that I was, I would have been leading.

[00:27:23] And so it turns out that there was a job waiting for me this whole time, but I needed to humble myself as why this is a story I realized I need to humble myself really, to the point of humiliation to do that work. And so she literally calls the shop one morning, says, can I speak to ? And the manager's Hey, you have a call.

[00:27:48] It's not happening. And it was like, no, they asked me for you. It's not pick up the phone. And it's my friend, Jackie. And she's Hey. I've got a job for you. Do you want to go work with me? It's sure. And that's how I got my next few. So I know working, doing financial literacy work in the city for public schools black and brown kids.

[00:28:24] Like Lord, he's letting you just it up last night

[00:28:47] And I, I just, I feel, the reason I want to ask about this before you like, talk about that is I feel like one of the ways that people get in their own way in their career journeys is needing every single step to be forward. And not because we all the challenging feelings that come with, maybe taking a step back to be able to.

[00:29:23] That is pretty much, that is pretty much like the nightmare scenario for people in that same tension of I can't run into who knew me from my previous life, if I take a step back. So I just want to hear a little bit about how did that really feel or were you cool with it? Were you disowned in

[00:29:38] I know it was hard. It was painful. I ever had, I had my pride, but I think really when I think about like my faith journey at that point, like the Lord was teaching me a lot about humility. And I think the phrase that came out of, for me was like out of humiliation comes humility, right? No, it was humiliating because what I wanted to say was that I was a better performer.

[00:30:16] Like I knew I was supposed to be in DC. I knew it. Cause I knew if I wanted to be in the international, if I'm going to get back to the content, if I want to go do the work I want to do on the home in Nigeria, I need to be around this international network of people. I just have to be here and something can happen.

[00:30:42] Jake: ironically, the only time I've been to Potbelly was in DC.

[00:30:47] Holdeman: For his birth was there for Finn's birthday. The first time I went to Potbelly was in DC, the one right by the white house. Cause my brother worked at living social right by there. Oh. And the second time I went to pop belly was in Baltimore. By that one that's right by the water near Camden yard.

[00:31:07] Jake: It's actually talking about populate for a little while. That's a pretty interesting, but brought to you by. So moving on to the next phase, this job that you took in

[00:31:31] That was, that experience was for me. And shaping the kind of education that I did not want to be a part of large scale, like mass running through numbers. I knew it became very clear to me. Like I did not want to be involved in that kind of work. I need to be intimate. I need to see where the sit with the same group of kids for prolonged period of time so that I can see whether what I'm doing actually has taken root.

[00:32:18] And it just was, it was, it really solidified in me like the kind of leader I want it to be and the kind of leader I did not want to be.

[00:32:29] That is an effective

[00:32:48] She helped me forget my Valentine's day gifts. But she cared about me and she was tough on me. She knew that I had potential. She knew that I wasn't organized. And she said, you're going to have to get organized. And she just, she forced me to get myself organized because I was managing a lot of volunteers.

[00:33:13] Jake: I'm

[00:33:19] W did you know, what did you know about yourself and your passions or your like, could, at that point, you're jumping off. You're about to go to the, back to the continent. I'll be at a different part of the continent. What did you know about yourself then? That you're like, yes, this is me. This is true.

[00:33:41] Segun: was it? I do a lot of reflection. I thought about what I was good at, what I cared about. And I wrote a letter to all of my friends, my, all my network action, not just my friends, my whole network.

[00:34:04] I wrote a number of things like that. I don't think I even wrote anything about my stress. I just worried about what I wanted. And then I emailed out to all my people that I knew. And it was one of my friends who sent me an email about African leadership academy was looking for a teaching fellows.

[00:34:29] My banker, not really I'd been in financial literacy. I've just been in so many things. I was moving two years, two years, two years, two years moving from thing to thing. So I didn't really know that I had a thing, but I knew where I needed to be. And it was overseas. I needed to be on content.

[00:35:00] I need a cushion. I need a cushion landing, South Africa. And my senior in college. I went to South Africa for a trip with a friend and I just toured the whole country. I fell in love. I was like, yeah, I can do South Africa. Let me go there first. And so that was like my landing place and I knew that's where I needed to land first.

[00:35:38] If like my willingness to humble myself to be where I needed to be made me think of. At this point, now I've done three years, like I'm five years into my professional career. I'm a program manager, but being a teaching fellow busy started a new career trajectory at the bottom. Like I was willing to do that because Eylea was going to sponsor my visa to be as I'm happier.

[00:36:05] Fin: Yeah. But also just to, just for everyone to understand, to be a teaching fellow, it's it is to take the job that the 21 year olds are fighting for. Like you were probably interviewing against people who are 21, finishing it, Yale, finishing it, Harvard.

[00:36:38] Jake: Let me just stop before we go any further. Maybe we could talk for a second or explain what ALA stands for. Also want to clarify that fin and cigs both work there. So that was one of the connections. I know

[00:37:02] And I always add since I've left, I started adding in our lives. And but the mission of the organization was to develop a next generation of leaders for the continent of Africa that will bring them out that peace and prosperity. Just

[00:37:19] It takes the best and the brightest 16, 18 year olds from all African nations and brings them down for this basically to your heavy, intensive academic program. But the thing that makes it special is that they have this curriculum in leadership, entrepreneurship, and African studies. And basically it's in the school.

[00:38:04] It's a, one of a kind high school experience and But it wasn't that when Chegg started, it was the two year old fledgling, probably not gonna make you get non-profit. And I'm sure just even going down there was a risk, but as you said, they would sponsor your visa. And at least that was at least I was going

[00:38:27] But I first met

[00:38:38] Holdeman: and to be headed, to work with someone in Johannesburg and you meet them five hours drive from your childhood. That's the crazy thing

[00:38:49] Like we're at this thing is just like a lot of people around. And I was like, can I just crash the ass? And I do this school, and this thing sponsored by the Bezos family. And but what ended up happening was I went up there and there, and they're so welcoming, like Mike and Jackie baseless are just two of the best people, but they shagged he introduced me as this new person for ALA.

[00:39:21] Cause I thought there was a small chance that ALA was a scam and I was just like, I've got to meet this guy. Who's supposedly going to be my manager. And the next thing I knew, I'm like watching. I think we were watching fireworks at the freaking Bezos mansion and Aspen, Colorado. I'm like walking through their basement, which is Narnia.

[00:39:49] Holdeman: things come with the actual theme of their basement?

[00:40:00] You took a chance on ALA and then like pretty quickly became a high flyer in the institution, obviously. That's, you ended up being my manager there for a few years. What do you attribute that like quick jump in the organization, fellow to leading a department within nine months, less than.

[00:40:27] Segun: I think it was, it really went to my sense of purpose. Like I joined LA because all of the things I've told you about what I wanted to do on the continent, Eylea was the proxy for me.

[00:40:55] And then I got there and there was already a head of leadership. And so I was like, okay, I'm not sure what's going on here, but I, whenever it was like who and then everybody left because it was, things were bad and. But it was probably about two months before the end of the school year.

[00:41:30] So I own that. And I've, till this day I still own that more than, so I always held ALA to that. I was a constituent of the continent myself and not just because. And so so all those things, the values, those are the values. Those are the things that I had written it for myself and my journals.

[00:42:06] And so I wrote back seven page, like vision document. And that's when I got a call from Chris and Fred to meet with Jenny

[00:42:24] Segun: It's funny. It's a bit about that and opportunity.

[00:42:41] Holdeman: But there's a chance if your manifesto had been like, what ALA needs is more snacks you still want?

[00:42:47] I think there was anybody left in the entrepreneurial and leadership moments. I think everybody was gone. It was literally just me.

[00:42:58] Segun: was promoted. Oh man. I

[00:43:17] No, I'm serious. There was nothing about you or the way that you carried the role that made me think this guy doesn't. Own this role that this guy doesn't deserve this role or that he wasn't sought out for this role. And I don't know if that was you just projecting or faking till you making it or whatever you did.

[00:43:54] Segun: It's funny, you said, because in many ways, if you think about the story I've shared with you, this was the culmination of, what is it? I graduate in 2004. So about six years of thinking and dreaming, right? This was like my dream job, right? This was, I'd done leisure curriculum at impact.

[00:44:29] And so I spoke with an authority that came from deep within myself. I didn't require any external parties. And I just had a clear vision of what this place needed to do to live up to, its own desires. And I love it because those are the words that if I could have dared to put words out there, those are the words that I would have put out there.

[00:45:07] And I just, I was like, what does that mean? What does it actually mean? And it just like this sense of knowing I know somebody that you don't, and I'm just going to say it with very, just very plainly and I believe it, and that authority has power. And so I think that's probably what add together.

[00:45:32] Holdeman: the way, I am looking up the verse here and it's Matthew 7 29. And the NIV version is because he taught as one who had authority and not as their teachers

[00:45:50] So it was it was felt like it was a stretch for me to, I, but I remember coming in and I think one of the things I knew then was just like, again, that humility from the other experiences really was in my mind, I was just like, look guys, I'm nervous. I don't really know what I'm doing here.

[00:46:15] Jake: What does it really mean to be a li the head of leadership at a unit at a school like this? What is your, what was the daily routine? What were some of the actual practices and things you were doing to instill

[00:46:31] So for me, it was a culture, it was a cultural, we talked a lot about not only do we have to develop curriculum, to teach students how to. Embody good leadership, which we have to define as well. You do that. And whatever so part of it is, as you're facilitating a team of educators and so you have meetings about class and like what program you're going to do and, blah, blah, blah, which kid needs to get a grade and doesn't need to get a grade at which the kids need to get a report.

[00:47:15] How do we do our residence life, how we do our admissions how we do our hiring. And that was like, for me, the really powerful stuff, I try to really deeply inculcate like the leadership ethos that we had developed and created into every part of that. Institution so that it would live and live long after us.

[00:47:56] So it was just what was beautiful. There was just a wealth of ideas that were pointed for, from within me. And that made it so much fun. And then people were.

[00:48:16] And so while we had a very famous founder the standing Fred who's been time times, 100, most influential people in the world, the actual the definition of what we taught kids and what became this magnet for the world was really shaped by sheds. And and the fact that it's now spread across the organization.

[00:49:02] You now hear shags his name thrown out around in good ways. And in a place like in rural Kenya where they've started a school that's modeled after ALA in a random school in Slovakia, in another place, in, in Columbia that these others, these sort of copycat schools have started up.

[00:49:35] That again, is now global and is so highly regarded.

[00:49:53] And I think again, going back to this idea of culture, system-wide like organizational change and, that's what I really love. And I think. It's hard to work, but I love getting into that

[00:50:12] Yeah. Purpose work.

[00:50:34] Segun: I think about it. Imagine that you have a platoon, and they've been called to a mission, let's say a peacekeeping mission, right? So their mission, it's very specific. Their mission is to protect the hospital in whatever. That's their mission. Okay. Now, but their purpose is to actually, is actually to bring, is to bring, is to allow democracy to flourish right.

[00:51:59] So you have different strategies. And then I'll talk about tactics, right? Tactics are the, ultimately the way you, which you deploy, right? Those strategies. That doesn't really get to passion, but I would say that for me, that's how I've always thought about purpose was like, it's this big overarching long-term aim that, that you hope to accomplish passion.

[00:52:34] So you're

[00:53:03] Segun: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's a great point. I think passion is probably, as you talk about it, I think about it's it's probably more personal exploration and purpose. It has more to do with other people, right? Like how you make the world and others a better place. Yeah. And so passion is about exploring the things you're good at maybe developing them, strengthening them, passionate, so both things are good.

[00:53:27] Holdeman: purpose in a previous interview Tori that we interviewed put it, she said, she read this from a Yuval Harari that you've got a narrative self, and an experience self of the narrative self. What, essentially what's the arc of your life that you're trying to be about.

[00:54:09] Is that kind of a bit analogous to what you're saying? The passion versus purpose?

[00:54:25] I knew where I needed to be to get towards that purpose idea, that broader narrative of life, but I felt compelled by. And so I, I actually, I learned passions along the way. I got to explore passions. I got to some passions, leave you, I used to be, I used to be really passionate about like American football and American basketball.

[00:55:03] But they're not going to be enough. I

[00:55:25] Yeah. Owner and lead consultants, leadership consultants. There's something I've heard those types of terms a lot. And I'm like, what are you, what do people in those positions do now? I would love to learn more because I think there's so much substance there and so much usefulness and just somebody who life-changing experiences.

[00:55:42] Holdeman: Hotspot question right there. What do you even do?

[00:56:00] Like I went there with a sense of purpose to help reshape how they think about community service and to give them a really a culture shift. COVID-19 as a curtail that. So I'm teaching social studies to seventh graders currently. It's not my passion and I'm struggling. I'm struggling with that.

[00:56:35] Jake: Maybe I should, maybe I skipped over this part. Why did you leave?

[00:56:41] Oh my gosh. I think I had one, one. This was a,

[00:56:56] That was, so it was, everyone had to do it before they left the institution.

[00:57:13] Or it was a beta, I can't remember, but we said let's do our, let's do our closing process by writing a reflection on what we've learned at what game. Anyway, so I say all that to say that I think I wrote mine and I can't remember what it was that really drove me to leave. But the simple answers with that, I started a family and it was time to move back to the states.

[00:57:59] Obviously I'm not doing things that I'm like, I don't believe in. But it doesn't hit all those spots like ALA did all those years.

[00:58:12] Jake: Me and you are in the same situation,

[00:58:18] Segun: It's funny because for many years I, this one was passionate that I need to explore his writing. And I think I've been avoiding it for many number of years.

[00:58:45] I moved from South Africa. I was still working with African leadership academy for a couple of years after I moved to the states. But then I realized look, I've been doing this for other people I need to do. I want to have my own experience. I've been teaching my students to be entrepreneurs and I've not done it myself.

[00:59:12] My, my view. And so yeah, I started a consultancy guy called the global leadership advisors and I spent I did know how to work consulting back to ALA ALU and, trying to help solidify a lot of that leadership. But then eventually started to move some more into working with, privates here in the states do a lot of innovation design kind of stuff, helping people think about new products, new streams, new revenue streams.

[00:59:52] I enjoy that those are passions for me. And so those are like truly like passion side projects. But they don't amass to anything. And then there's that, there's a missing hole there for me. It's interesting. Interestingly enough, right now, one of the clients that I'm consulting with is is an organization called

[01:00:27] I love that organizational building people, culture formation, stuff that I think makes particularly it makes mission purpose-driven organizations. Yeah. Live up to their it's what they espouse to be.

[01:00:49] Segun: Oh, a big part of it is, that's the missing.

[01:01:09] Like they're my leadership academy right now. And actually, and they're humbling me incredibly. I'm getting humiliated on a daily basis and that is, that has developing humility and new ways that I, I didn't know I needed. And I think I'm recognizing that. But we'll see. I think we know as a family now I have to think more as a family.

[01:02:00] Jake: and their veggies.

[01:02:24] And I think it has, it struck me as the type of thing you write when you're trying to, when you're in your own head and you're stuck in your current place, and you're trying to figure out how to organize your thoughts, how to activate your network that currently exists and how to just consider what you really want to do as a next step from this place that you're in, that you may not like.

[01:02:50] Segun: now? Yeah. So what we do at each facility, when we transition coach, we take people through what we call a trifecta survey. The beautiful thing about this back the survey again, why I love working this organization because this is something I already believe I did this in impact.

[01:03:23] And I still remember in many ways, some of the stuff that people wrote, but being highly empathetic being eclectic, those were like, like three, two of the strengths are. Yeah. Relationally relational empathy was like really high. And then I remember the role that people said about me.

[01:03:52] Holdeman: so you wrote your own list of these things and you asked your community to answer. I had all of the above, like three great strengths that you're better at than anyone else in the world.

[01:04:08] Segun: Yeah. Yeah. And those passions or strengths, like what could you see? What could you see me being really great at with what you've now identified about me? And so that was powerful.

[01:04:30] If you see it, let me know. And that, that was a powerful tool. And it still, I think, proves to be a powerful tool in a transition process. So you basically

[01:04:51] Yeah. And lay out what you want, and then you send it to your even larger community and say, this is what I'm looking for, helping. Oh yeah.

[01:05:08] But I've always thought about how could you make coaching self-help Brian. I can ask the right questions to help someone think. These things. So yeah, that would be definitely one tool.

[01:05:27] And I thought that was really interesting. Cause the transition email to me sounds like when, you know the, where you're at, isn't the right place to be and you're ready to transition somewhere. And the manifesto struck me as this. This is a little bit, this is the intrepreneur who has a vision for where this place could be going potentially has maybe even in a place of I have nothing to lose potentially.

[01:06:08] Segun: I've done this in almost every organization I've been in. It seems it's funny while I was with a mentor of mine, talking with a mentor of mine who actually was helping push me on my passion is passion coaching me actually just this past weekend. And he always goes back to the letter. I wrote to the president of impact and I dropped the mic, and it was like one of those things that like either open the door or close the door, but it's basically, it's basically all the things that you imagine this thing can be right.

[01:06:57] This is what I'm seeing. And oftentimes people in leadership don't get to see all the grassroots stuff. And I just usually lay that out. And I usually give some examples this is what I see. And this is the impact that it's having. This is the cause, which is why I remember when we got to ALA and the people telling you about situation, impact and behavior.

[01:07:27] Discrepancy, there's real dissonance that has not, I'm often worried about like the cultural implications, right? Like a long-term interface, like how this is going to harm your ability to live out your thing. And then, I usually try to throw some options out there, some solutions out there do this, do that.

[01:08:03] And then you work backwards from there, but in actual practice, what people do, and this is done all the time is that if you want to develop something, it's encouraged to go pursue that. If you want to create a new product. It's no surprise why Amazon has so many different products and it's, so it's a cool philosophy, which is.

[01:08:36] So it's called a PR FAQ, and this is how actually things get created and moving. And Amazon is that it's almost like a manifesto for, I want to create this. This is what it looks like in the future. And here is me answering all the other questions that could possibly come up and you present this to your manager or your leadership, and that's how things get going.

[01:09:14] One of the questions is what's the plan to globalize. This you're like, ah, crap. I have no idea. And, but there's so many little things you've got to think about when you start writing it out. That's I think how so often things get I like,

[01:09:37] Hoping that, Hey, look, I got a great idea. This is what we should do. And not really thinking through anything after that and leaving that CEO, I've handed you the genius idea, I guess you'll run with it or whatever. So I liked that because it's a good framework to help maybe someone who doesn't have a lot of experience thinking through all of the ramifications of a good idea helps them to.

[01:10:20] That's really cool.

[01:10:36] And it basically challenge you to think about five stages of anything, but where you're, where where the impact matters. And so you work with, from your vision where the impact is you work through your it's like short to medium term outcomes that you have out.

[01:11:00] So what, when did that actually change? What was the impact of that? And so that was a big lesson learned from that document. And so anyway, but it helps you think about that. What's the output versus the what's what are the short-term outcomes? And then the long-term outcomes that you went, what are your inputs?

[01:11:18] Holdeman: You're a book recommendation at the very least.

[01:11:30] That's basically about where we are as a country and our partisan divide and what it means to learn, to love your enemies. It's funny because we're actually, we as a church, even though it's not tickets, it's not I might be sick they're off. I don't know. But I think I, I like, I liked that. I like the ideas there.

[01:12:10] Yeah. I read that book when I was 20, whatever, something. And it was phenomenal. It's kinda like the outcomist. But it's obviously it's got a Christian perspective, but it really is shaped so much and it spoke so much to me and gave me so much more confidence and belief. So I recommend that to anybody.

[01:12:35] Segun: See that's one of those passions, that phase man, like I used to be, yeah, I have a collection somewhere in this house, but my current job doesn't allow me to wear it. And so I haven't worn a bow tie in maybe two and a half, three years

[01:12:54] Segun: Yeah. That is that I'm not allowed the culture of the place. That's not. And I haven't, I found myself trying to assimilate into the culture.

[01:13:24] We've got to do it now. And just recognizing that, Hey, we're still in the learning phase as a really good reminder.

[01:13:36] Jake: All right, sir. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. That outro music.

[01:14:00] So thanks again for listening to this season of the interesting lives of normal people. If you like what you heard, then we'd really appreciate giving us a review and rating on apple podcasts and telling your friends it really helps new people find us. Thanks again to Hugo for letting us use your music in this episode.