A community health nurse who is currently in the front lines with COVID work, Lucy addresses biculturality, migration, and the importance of self-care for women.

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, drafted in 1948

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

• Article 9. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
• Article 13.

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Centers for Disease Control (CDC) on health worker stress

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/mental-health-healthcare.html

Jamila Woods, born 1989. 

“Her work focuses on themes of Black ancestry, Black feminism, and Black identity, with recurring emphases on self-love and the City of Chicago.”

Woods maintains two separate websites, one for poetry and one for music, but it’s clear that in her practice, the two arts become one. Many of the poetry tracks have musical backing, and her manner of recitation is likewise musicalized.

Poetry:  https://jamilawoodswrites.com/

Music: http://www.jamila-woods.com/#home

Community organizing

Woods is the Associate Artistic Director of Young Chicago Authors (YCA), an organization in the Chicago area dedicated to uplifting youth voices through arts education and mentorship. 

Through YCA, Woods helps to organize “Louder Than a Bomb,” the world's largest youth poetry slam festival. 

She also facilitates poetry workshops and creates curriculum for Chicago Public Schools.

Young Chicago Authors (YCA):  https://youngchicagoauthors.org/

Louder Than a Bomb: https://youngchicagoauthors.org/louder-than-a-bomb/about

ELG: Greetings and welcome!

The original version of today’s interview was conducted in Spanish. This English re-enactment was recorded with the voice actor Terri Richter.

I came to know Lucy a few years ago in the context of the Taller de Son Jarocho at the Centro Cultural de México. This interview is also unique in a sense that is perhaps worthy of mention: it is the very first interview I recorded for this project.

LD: Okay! Good afternoon. Thank you so much for this opportunity, eh?

My name is Lucy Dale, or a lot of people also call me Lucy Da-le [pronounced as if in Spanish] and my pronouns--well, I feel comfortable with “she.” And right now I’m living, I’ve been living—let’s see—almost two and a half years in Santa Ana, California. And, well, obviously in a pandemic, I’m taking it day by day. Trying to survive everything in this chaotic time.

ELG: Yes, for sure, it’s really chaotic…So then, as you already know, I have three questions for you, and I’d say the first one is the broadest: Where are you from? So this can be understood in a geographical sense, like, what part of the world do you come from. Or else in a cultural sense, or else…or else your current state of mind.

LD: Okay, awesome. So, in fact, whenever anyone asks me that question, honestly I always have a really long answer, because it’s true that even if someone asks it in the geographical sense, for me it’s just not that simple. Because—okay. So I was born in Chicago. But a little while after I was born, like a year and a bit, my family moved to El Salvador. And then, after living in El Salvador for four years, we returned to Chicago, and I grew up in a Mexican community in Chicago. I went to a bilingual school, always speaking Spanish and English together. And so in these different places—Central America was one place, my family has always had this connection with Central America—growing up, and of course being born in Chicago, I grew up feeling that I’m… well, I’m bicultural. So that experience of “here or there,” you know, it’s always been difficult, right? to feel like I had a single response, to saying where I come from. – But when people ask me, the short answer is: “Chicago.”

But really, I feel like the bicultural question is a big part of my identity. And if we go further back: My mother was born in New York, my father in San Francisco, and I have the privilege of knowing where my ancestors come from, which would be Norway and Wales. But I really don’t know that part of my ancestry; I don’t have any connection with those countries, you know?

--So, culturally, well obviously I grew up bicultural, with a lot of Latinx culture. But then obviously my parents are of European descent. So—it’s a big mixture!

ELG: [laughs] Yup, yup, it is…Thanks. Okay, so, given this cultural condition, this state of coming from various places—what would be a music that represents this? this condition in which you live?

LD: Okay, so I think this goes by what period you’re in, in your life, right?— but the song that lately, that I currently feel like it represents me, is a song by Jorge Drexler, called “Movimiento.” That is, “Movement.” And this song talks about exactly that—it talks about migration! Not being from here OR from there. And for me, it really represents that, you know? That sense of mixture that I identify with.

ELG. Ah, I love Jorge Drexler.

[clip, Drexler “Movimiento”]

ELG. Okayyy…so then, what a song. And what a songwriter!

LD: Ooohh yeah, right? Drexler, ouf ouf ouf. One of my favorites.

ELG: He’s a real poet…So, going back to the question I asked before we listened: what does he do musically to communicate that sense of movement, the theme of the poetry? What do you hear?

LD: Yeah, definitely, like you say, he’s a poet. And really for me it’s…the sound of the air that you hear in the background, there’s some percussion too, so you feel like you’re walking, or like that…

clip: ruidos del viento desde el inicio de la canción…

LD: So yeah, that sound is just…like you’re in movement, a cycle that doesn’t stop, in some way, right? But is also changes a lot, and then there are pauses too, where he speaks the poetry. And it’s like it…it reflects it really well, don’t you think?

ELG: Yeah! Sometimes he sings and other times he speaks, he declaims. It’s quite striking. So, who’s his audience for this song?

LD: Oh, yeah! that’s a really good question, and I have wondered about it, you know? So, obviously I don’t know the answer exactly, but what I like is that he makes you question exactly that. Because it doesn’t—well, for me at least, he doesn’t make it very clear, in the sense that he makes you question where you come from. The fact that he…well, obviously this describes a lot of what immigration is, right? And that, well, most people, if they have the privilege of knowing where some of their ancestors come from, they’ll know that some of those generations migrated from one place to another, right? That is, it makes you ask yourself, “Where do my parents come from, too?” We’re talking about our grandparents or parents. --So, how does it make you think about that? Because of course, normally we think about where we’re from, and automatically we think geographically, where was I born, and that’s it. Right? But really, the question is, “What makes me think that I’m from a certain place or not?” That is, if I was born in Chicago, does that mean that I have to feel that I’m from Chicago? You know, the song makes you really think about where you’re from; and that’s what I like about it, that it makes you question that.

But I think that this moment that we’re living in right now is very…well, we know there’s a lot of tension about migration. And so, all this struggle about, “Ahh, no, I’m from here, they’re invading my country and so on, blah blah blah” – But wait, because, you’re not from here either, right? And then—where are we going?

So the song also touches on a theme that we’re all living with, no? One that’s super controversial for a lot of people, the theme of migration. Or else, it can make you think about colonization and slavery. All of history! So I really like that, when he says, "No tenemos pertenencias, sino equipaje," that is, “We don’t have belongings, we only have luggage.” Right? –And then also, I also like, this idea that it’s a good thing to move around. He puts that value out there too. You know, like, “I can be from here, and I can also be from over there.” Like, [laughs]I have the right to move wherever I want!

Drexler “Movimiento,” clip #2

Somos una especie en viaje.

No tenemos pertenencias,

sino equipaje.

INSERT #1

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

ELG: So, the general tone of the song is hopeful, no? It’s, like, positive, it has a positive tone, of movement….just like you say, movement as a human right, movement like a…like a force that all of us have coming from within, moving around through the world. And, yeah, it does deal with a theme that tends to get controversional, doesn’t it? But he sings about it in a calm tone…

LD: Yeah, he does. But no, Drexler’s voice, I love it, too. It’s a thing that…something that really draws me in his musics and songs, is that voice he has.

ELG: Yup. "Yo no soy de aquí, pero tú tampoco." That is—“I’m not from here, but neither are you!”

LD: Right, and he says at one point, "De todos lados un poco." That is, that we’re all--we all have a little bit of everything. I identify with that a whole lot, like, personally.

ELG: For sure, yeah, yeah.

Well—I think my playlist is about to grow a lot.

LD: Oh yeah!! In fact, Elisabeth, you have to share the playlist [for this show] with everyone after you do these interviews. I want that playlist!

INSERT #2

Well, the playlist exists! It’s live on Spotify and it’s growing with every interview we do. It’s amazing for the eclectic variety it displays…we invite you to expand your horizons—just like Drexler sings about—and check it out through the link on our website, or else directly on Spotify using the name of our show, “Si yo fuera una canción.”

ELG: OK then, my third and final question for you is, What is a music, a song, that expresses your hopes for the future?

LD: Okay…So I’ve always used music…for me, in order to really think through something, or when I’m looking for strength, or for hope in the future, and always when I want to reflect on the hopes I do have, I always go to music in general, to give me that boost. Music is a big part of that for me. And then, I have certain songs that in some way give me hope, but they make me cry, and sometimes I need to cry so that I can reflect on something, right?

But right now, I seek out songs that are a little happier, so that I can really access the strength I need to feel that there is hope. And these days, I feel like there’s one special song that talks a little bit about the self-care that we all need personally. And more than anything, I identify with this song as a woman. It’s called “Holy,” H-O-L-Y, and it’s by Jamila Woods. She’s—well, she’s from Chicago! [laughs] And, well, she’s an awesome woman, right? The song is obviously in English, but, yeah: it has that thing, that boost I need so that I have the strength, as a woman, and it talks about the self-care I need, so that I can feel that there’s hope.

clip de Jamila Woods:

Me desperté esta mañana con la mente

fijada en amar a mí misma…

____________________________________

INSERT #3

Woods’ and Lucy’s focus on self-care has a very particular resonance in the COVID era, of course; and Lucy herself is currently a COVID worker on the front lines of community prevention.

The CDC acknowledges the stress that attends such work, from anxiety and depression up through post-traumatic stress disorder; its tips for coping and enhancing resilience, while comprehensive and thoughtfully presented, do not currently include engaging with music and sister arts.

But surely they should! As Lucy tells us, music and poetry are refuge, consolation, and a true source of power when times are hard.

ELG: Okay, so tell me something about how you came to know this artist’s work.

LD: Well in fact, Jamila Woods is from Chicago, and I like a lot that she relates a lot to Lake Michigan. She puts a lot of that into her songs, too. I also got to know her work because she also sings with Chance the Rapper, another Chicago artist who got really famous. So, Jamila Woods is a poet; she does writing and poetry workshops in Chicago, she’s part of a really cool movement there, too. And she’s super genuine, super humble, super…just really lovely, I think. So I just like her way of being, you know?

INSERT #4

Jamila Woods is a mover and shaker in the “cool movement” in Chicago to which Lucy refers. It’s a movement that brings together poets, musicians, dancers, and local youth of color to explore “themes of identity, intersectionality, trauma, and healing,” always troubling the living edge between what gets called poetry and what gets called music.

Links to some of her material appear on our website!

[LD] And then there’s the rhythm of R&B, Soul, hip hop, you know. For me it…it gives me a feeling, a certain feeling. In fact, it got me thinking, “How would I translate “holy” into Spanish?” Like, keeping the sense of the English? So then I started saying, “sagrado,” right? Which is sort of like the English “sacred.” As in, “I am sacred.”

But in this sense, the sense of what makes this song sacred, like what elements are there musically: well, something that really resonates for me is the keyboard, piano, that’s part of it. Also she has, like, a chorus of women backing her up. So then it gets a bit of “that church feeling,” a little, right? I think that brings the sacredness out. Maybe some other elements she brings in, too…and the, obviously, her voice. Hers, and the other women, right? For me that sounds sacred.

ELG. Yeah, yeah, I hear that. It also comes out very clearly in her way of singing. It’s like…like…how would I put it? She sings very plainly, really simple, she doesn’t put much drama into her way of singing, does she? It’s almost like she’s speaking to the listeners. I guess I’d say, conversational.

And you know, it seems like very often it’s that intimate element of the sacred that we lose, right? And there she is, almost confessing, "I'm holy by my own." I love it. It’s as if she were my sister…

LD: Ooff, hey, that gives me shivers! [laughs]

ELG: Really? – well, yeah! And then, as far as hope, your hope for the future. Tell us more about how this idea of the sacred -- which is something very intimate, very personal –

LD: Of course!

ELG: -- How does this become a hope for you?

LD: Hmmm…"I'm not lonely, I'm alone." I mean, it’s that that’s okay, right? It’s okay if I’m alone. That’s sacred, too. There’s pressure from society, to feel that we have to be something specific, and especially as women in this society—but, we are our own temples! The image of a woman as her own sacred space, the sacred temple of Woman! So, there’s hope there! In women…the temple of women is a great hope, for me. And reminding myself that I, myself, I’m that sacred person, I am a temple, and that we need this self-care for that sacred temple. So, the song gives me this place where I can say to myself, “Okay, I have a lot of power as a sacred woman, I can achieve a lot.” And that gives me strength for the future, you know? So that I can keep going, and know that there’s hope for a better world.

ELG: How beautiful! Yes…And, yeah, speaking as one single woman to another, I really like those lines, “"I'm not lonely,I'm alone/ and I'm holy by my own." I love that!

clip #2 de Jamila Woods “Holy”

[ELG] Maybe that’s a good note on which to end our interview. I want to thank you for your time and your thoughts, and above all, for having introduced me to two such beautiful songs.

LD: Well, thank you again for the invitation, let me know how it goes, and I'll see you in two weeks or so, when I get back from Bellingham. I leave Friday at 5 AM.

ELG: Go with motion, but also calmly. Like the Drexler song…

LD: Thank you! Big kiss, and we’ll talk soon! Ciao!

OUTRO PARTICULAR

We ended the interview at this point.

I do believe that we need music, art, and wise words to help us remember the strength that is proper to women. Because, in spite of the advances of the last century in many parts of the world, there is a lot, really a lot, around us that continues diminishing and looking down on everything that isn’t masculine. Sexism is really strong, and it’s everywhere. We need songs like this one, as well as conversations like this one, to give us strength.

And for that reason, I invited some of the young women and non-binary folk on my production team to chat a little further about their own ideas about self-care, and where music comes into it for them. You can find our conversation on our website.

Lucy Dale’s episode, Part 2:

A conversation about self-care among non-male-identified members of SYF’s Production Team

Participants: Elisabeth Le Guin (host), Julia Alanís, Zoë Broussard, Marcy De La Torre, Laura Díaz

ELG: All right, everybody, welcome and thank you so much for being here. This is our follow-on to Lucy Dale's interview, in which I asked non-male members of our production team to meet and talk a little bit about self care, and about how self care works in their lives and why it is important for women and non-gender-binary folks in a way that perhaps it is not important for men. I think this is a really important theme. And it came up strongly in Lucy's interview. And I would like to follow up on it a little bit here with all of you. So I want to start by asking everybody to just very briefly introduce yourself. Tell us your name and what you do on our production team, and maybe a little bit about, kind of your, your age, and your position in life. What do you -- what are you doing these days? I'll start with myself. I'm Elisabeth Le Guin, [and] I'm the program host, of course. I'm 63 -- puts me in a very different generation from all of my production team. And I'm a university professor who happens also to be running this podcast. And, I'm going to pass it to Laura.

Laura Díaz: Hi, my name is Laura Díaz. I'm a graphic designer for this podcast, and in my free time, I do a lot of video gaming and a lot of illustration. Just personal illustration.

ELG: Cool. And you are a community college student, Laura, so I place your age somewhere in the 20s, would that be correct?

Laura Díaz: Correct. Yes, I am. Twenty-one, turning twenty-two in August.

ELG: All right, Marcy, would you like to go next?

Cynthia Marcel De La Torre: Absolutely. Hi, everyone. My full name is Cynthia Marcel De La Torre. And as everyone knows me, I'm Marcy. I am twenty-four years old and I am an audio engineer for Elisabeth's project, "Si yo fuera una canción."

ELG: Thank you, Marcy! Zoë?

Zoë Broussard: Yes, hi, everyone. I'm the Director of Marketing and Communications. I'm twenty-three years old and I'm turning twenty-four next month. Right now I'm working on my Master's in Media Psychology and in my free time, I like to listen to and make music. I also have a small business where I make jewelry and I share my art with others.

ELG: Cool. Thank you so much. And last but y no means least: Julia.

Julia Alanís: Hi, my name's Julia Alanís. I'm 19, I just turned 19 like a couple weeks ago, so still fresh in my mind. I'm an audio engineer on the team and I am a freshman in college. So I'm studying music industry and in my free time, I like to edit sound for short films.

ELG: Wonderful, and I neglected to mention two things, one is what I do in my free time. I would say probably my dominant activity in my free time is gardening. I have a big garden and I try to grow vegetables and things in it... The other thing I wanted to mention is that there is a member of our team whose name is Deyaneira Garcia, and Deyaneira is not able to be with us today, in part for a reason that really bears on our theme, which is that they are recovering from an appendectomy! So Deyaneira has recorded a separate contribution to this conversation...

So -- we have three questions that I'm going to ask us each to respond to. The first of them is this: Why do you think self care is especially important for women and non-male-identified folks? What makes it a topic of particular concern to us? And I'm going to keep the same order that we introduced ourselves in. So, Laura, if you'd like to speak to this first?

Laura Díaz: Sure! So often I notice that women often have to do more emotional labor, both at home and in their workplace. What this means is, you know, they have this sort of role, I've noticed, where they have to deal with the kids, they have to deal with the emotional situations, they have to make sure that everyone's comfortable and that, that...a lot of stress, like sometimes you don't have the emotional capacity or the energy to deal with those types of situations, but we're expected to deal with them anyway. And another reason is just that I think women face more stressors. There are, it's a scary world out there for women. I mean, I'm just walking out of the grocery store. I have to be, like, hyper-vigilant. You know, [that] I'm not being followed, that something is not going to come out and, like, put me into a van. And just, just going outside by yourself is a it's a bit of a stressful situation, at least in my experience. So I do think that, you know, women deserve to just kind of have a moment to themselves, and reground and take care of their emotions and their bodies.

ELG: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Thank you, Laura. Marcy, you want to follow on from that?

Marcy De La Torre: Yeah, for sure. I loved everything that Laura had to say. I think that for myself personally, I was actually in a pretty unique situation growing up where I was really independent and I never was afraid of going out or, like, meeting new people. And that kind of scared my family for me. And so I -- it's really interesting to hear Laura share her her perspective on this, because I was having a bit of a challenge to sort of, like, word it in a way where it was just singling out the challenges that women face. And as oblivious as I could have acted growing up, like I could have probably ended up in a million, like, difficult situations, if I didn't have people around me who really cared for me. So I'm extremely more cognizant of it now as a result of just, like, having friends, family members who make it a big deal to relate with me and like, just kind of move with me in different areas as we… go through different walks of life and experience, experience the world together.

ELG: It's interesting, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, you know, as we kind of braid our answers together because they're all kind of pointed in the same direction, I think. But there's a different perspective for each one. Zoë, you want to join in?

Zoë Broussard: Yeah, honestly, self care, it's so important because it's so easy to get lost in the demands of the day-to-day hassles and stresses. Sometimes I feel like I'm bouncing from task to task, from homework to work, career-planning to my small businesses. And I find myself forgetting to do small things like drinking water or going outside to get fresh air, downloading the sun, you know! A lot of the time, non-male-identifying individuals carry the load of trying to maintain harmony in spaces. And we can't create a sustainable future without building a sustainable presence in our bodies.

ELG: Wow, so neatly put, I like that a lot. I also like that phrase "Downloading the sun." I hadn't heard that before.

Zoë Broussard: One of my favorite phrases.

ELG: It's really good. Julia, you want to join in?

Julia Alanís: Yeah, of course. I think... I think for people who are not male, there's a big influence from outside sources to be this “nurturing person.” And I believe it was in World War Two when women joined the workforce. They became, like, when they were adopted into the workforce, they still had the expectation of being a full time mom, full time caretaker, a full time nurturer at home. So there is this responsibility of "Always be hustling," but there's also the responsibility of, like, take care of your kids and make sure they are raised well. So I think there's a lot of different responsibilities that fall to women that make it difficult to acknowledge self care.

ELG: Yeah, thank you for bringing a little bit of history into it. I think that's super important. That connects a little bit with my own response to this, this question about why self care is especially important for women and non-male-identified folks. And it just has to do with...it has to do with what you said earlier, that we are embedded in a system that... Well, I'll just say it: capitalism. It’s based on a model where you exhaust your resources. And when workers -- like us, each one of us is earning a living -- when workers become resources, they get exhausted. And the population that's supposed to meet up make up for that exhaustion of resources, the exhaustion of workers, is women. It's this, kind of, you know, second full time job that so many women in our generations and in our mothers' generations had to carry, which is, yeah, you keep the nourishing going while everyone is out there exhausting themselves in the "free market"... And I just want to briefly address something you said, Laura. You know, you said we we deserve self care, we deserve to be cared for. And I would go [a] step further than that. I'd say it's a right. It's more than just something we deserve, it's something we have a right to demand of our culture! And that's going to that's going to pitch us toward our third question. But first the second question that I would like everybody to address, which is this: What is an internal obstacle to your own self care? That is, what do you find yourself kind of having to overcome within yourself, in order to achieve a level of self care that's meaningful for you, that, you know, that really makes a difference? And we'll keep the same order here. So, Laura, if you'd like to weigh in on that?

Laura Díaz: Yeah. So one one obstacle that I often face is just feeling like I don't deserve a break. And that has… that has to do a lot with my depression. My... I have a very long relationship with mental illness, so I often have to fight myself when it comes to just slowing down and realizing that, you know, I'm overwhelmed, realizing that I deserve a break, that I'm not a machine. And that, you know, it's OK, it's fine to, to...just stop once in a while and take care of yourself, because if you don't, you know, things will only get worse.

ELG: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, it sounds like you've you've learned that last part the hard way, that if you don't do this, it's... Yeah, as you say, it's just going to get worse. Mm hmm.

Marcy De La Torre: I'd like to jump in! I too, like, have also been facing things, that where I feel like things just only get worse unless I do something about it. And the biggest thing that I think I've been able to implement into my life to help circumvent this has been meditation. And I'm really grateful for this, like, new learning experience, because it has changed the way that I pace my day. And acknowledging that maybe two or three hours from now, like [even] as good as I've been going right now, I might need to just take a nap for like 20 minutes, and just allow myself the opportunity to just process what happened during the day, because of how much pressure I can put myself through. All of this relates to how important it is to being able to give yourself the time, the time that you need to develop and grow and just process.

ELG: Right! So thank you, Marcy, because you went to something that wasn't in my question, but I think it's an important element, which is, you know, if there's an obstacle and if it's an internal obstacle, what are some ways past or through that obstacle into a better state of caring for oneself? And you also mentioned time and the sense... I imagine that you, like so many of us, have this feeling that there's just not enough time to get it all done and the pressure that that brings. So, yeah, thanks for bringing the agency piece into it. You know, I don't know, Laura, if you want to circle back here, because I didn't build that into the question and I probably should have. You know, with the internal obstacles, the things we have internalized that tell us that we shouldn't care for ourselves, well, you know, what might be a way past it for you, or what are some of the strategies that you've evolved?

Laura Díaz: For me, it was therapy. You know, thanks to my therapist, she kind of helped me -- what's the word? Like, catch myself, in those moments and rewire my thinking to a way, where I'm like, "Am I my punishing myself for no reason?" And then, you know, if I do catch myself in those moments, then just, you know, do what I have to do to make sure that I'm going to be OK.

ELG: So cool.

Marcy De La Torre: I love that image of, like, catching yourself. Because you know that you can depend on yourself to get yourself through the day and like, that's beautiful.

Laura Díaz: At the end, something I've always told myself, you know, I'm the only person who's going to have my back 100 percent. So, you know, I think it's important to be able to rely on yourself, if for some reason you don't have anyone else you can reach out to.

Marcy De La Torre: Right. And even learn how to, if you've never been able to beforehand.

Laura Díaz: Right.

ELG: Yes. I think it's important to remember that is actually a skill that can be learned. Zoë, you want to weave yourself into this?

Zoë Broussard: Yeah, I actually really... I'm a big fan of the notion of, you know, taking the time to really appreciate yourself, for being there for yourself. And what Marcy just said kind of reminded me of this, saying this quote of, you know, "It's important to just give yourself a hug from time to time." It's like, fully embrace yourself and be there, be present in that moment... In terms of an internal obstacle that I experienced to my own self care, I would say it's not feeling guilty about it. It's so easy to -- you know, sometimes we all feel that we're guilty for setting boundaries, whether it's in relationships that are platonic, romantic or at work. It's so much more important to listen to your body first and to also be able to communicate on behalf of your body what it needs. I am a big fan of the idea of caring for your body as you would a small child. Even the little things matter.

ELG: Yeah, yeah, that's lovely, yeah, because your body is just there and like a small child, it doesn't have words, necessarily, to communicate with you. We get so up in our heads! Julia, what have you got to share with us about on this thread about internal obstacles and ways past them?

Julia Alanís: Mine's on a similar thread as to what Laura said. I have, like, a collection of mental health issues, I'd call it, and like, there are days where my brain tells me, "You know what? What if you just don't take your medicine today?" Which is not OK! And I am blessed and fortunate enough to have people in my life that will wake me up if I forget to take it. And they remind me every day and they ask, and sometimes it gets really frustrating. But other days it's like, I really need that. So that's my way around it.

ELG: Yeah, this is something that hasn't actually surfaced up to now, but I think it's a really important element, is surrounding yourself with people who... I mean, Laura, you said, you know, when push comes to shove, I have my own back and and I need to know that for myself and... Yes, I think this goes actually to the idea that came up in Lucy's interview about, you know, “being your own temple,” and [it] may be another way of saying that. That said, since all of us to some degree live in society and live among other people, even, you know, with the pandemic and all, we still have some other people that we have in our lives. And to the extent that we're able to choose those people and make sure that they're are people who are giving us the space we need to heal, to find ourselves, to be well, to be happy. And that can be a long process. It's tricky, it's tricky finding those people.

I particularly want to thank Laura and Julia. I want to thank you in particular for being upfront about mental health issues. I think this is something really admirable that, you know, when those things are part of one's life, to just come out and say it. It's a real consciousness-raising tool for all of us. It helps remove the stigma that mental health issues have had, and it creates a basis of relationship. I myself... I've struggled, and it's not a major central way, but a significant way, I've struggled all my life with episodes of depression and all those lovely messages that come in the door when when Mr Depression walks in and tells you that, “No, you don't deserve this, and you're worth nothing if you aren't accomplishing something or contributing something.” And just learning to tell him to shut his mouth and walk back out until he can be more polite. That's been a lifelong, lifelong process for me. So thank you for bringing that element into it. I think it is woven into this topic on so many levels.

My last question with which we will wrap up this little session is the following. So how could our workplaces or our schools -- because several of us are actually students at the moment -- or our communities, you can choose any aspect that you think is particularly significant -- How could these places better support good self care for all people? What are some things that could happen out there -- so this is the external side of the question -- what are some things that could happen out there that would really make it better for us in terms of self care? Laura, you want to start us off again?

Laura Díaz: Yeah. So one concern that I often have when I'm applying to a job is that they won't understand that because of my mental illness, because of my anxiety issues, sometimes I just won't be able to make it to work. You know, it's something that's beyond my control and I need to take a day or two, to kind of get a hold of myself. I do wish that workplaces, managers, whatever it is, would understand that, you know, we're all just human and we do deserve a break, you know, we deserve to not be so stressed out all the time. But, you know, I think, as you said earlier, that's just how capitalism works. And I doubt it's going to change. I think there are very few, you know, workplace leaders that actually understand, you know, the importance of mental health, [of] making sure that their employees are sane and well taken care of. And I guess the same thing goes for schools because, you know, I went through the worst of my mental illness when I was in high school and I had to explain to every single teacher, "Hey, this is what's going on, I need accommodations so that I don't, like, break down every single day at school." So just...amplifying everyone's understanding of mental illness and how it functions, and just how it's not as simple as, you know, "sucking it up" or "being more positive."

ELG: Yeah... Go ahead, Marcy.

Marcy De La Torre: Wow. I…I feel like growing up in high school, I never really felt like I could show weakness. Like I always had to "have it together." And this did stem down from, like, my own personal family's values and always, always being go-getters, always like just being on top of things. And it created this, like, level of anxiety within me that I almost like numbed myself to my own emotions in order to get through my days. And it wasn't until I graduated from high school... And the saddest part of the story is when you know that you went through something because you find this one journal entry that was like... like extremely eye-opening to your own self, where it should have been the wake-up call to get you to find help or seek a resource. But because I wasn't encouraged within my own family to address anything, I always had to hold it in. And it wasn't until I went to community college where people were a little bit more accepting of my circumstances, that I was able to see a little more empathy for my own self and my own experience. And juggling tasks is something that many college students experience because they're just moving forward in their life, creating their own pace. And I really would like to commend Laura for being able to acknowledge herself at such a young age, because I couldn't. And I really wish I could have.

Laura Díaz: Thank you.

Marcy De La Torre: Yeah.

ELG: Zoë?

Zoë Broussard: Yeah, I'm also very interested in echoing the same remarks, on just appreciating how genuine this conversation is, especially with regards to how we can reach burnout, and how to communicate that with people who are expecting productivity from us. One of my external obstacles is the issue of scheduling and specifically planning time for myself. I'm currently still working on this, but I'm working on prioritizing myself rather than squeezing in time for myself: putting myself on my schedule rather than saying, "Oh, I have five minutes, I'm going to go ahead and eat lunch!" But rather, being intentional with the time I make for myself. It's just, I have this experience. When I was in my undergrad at UC Irvine, I reached burnout just because I was doing…I was a full time student. At the same time, I was working in student government, traveling, and trying to advocate for students, when I really should have been also advocating for my own mental health, my own sanity, and [this] eventually led me to have to... I had to stop taking classes for one quarter just because I was unable to focus in class. But being able to take breaks and having teachers that are willing to work with you is so important! It's at the point where it's like, if you can't schedule yourself, you need to make sure you have a strong support system that can hold you accountable to supporting yourself. Or even, we need to normalize institutions, implementing alternative assignments for people who may have trouble waking up one day or getting out of bed one day or even just finding the will to do the work. It's just very important for our institutions to make sure that they are implementing change on a more long term basis that supports students, workers, anyone who is expected to just kind of spit out labor all the time.

ELG: Yeah, yeah.. Wow, yeah. This is intense! Julia, what do you have to say to us on this question?

Julia Alanís: I definitely agree that workplaces should work to accommodate people who are struggling, just because I feel like that's the human thing to do. And I think another thing that I really would have wanted from my community earlier on in life, would have been not shaming people for not only getting help, but for me getting medication. I was hospitalized and in an outpatient program and a partial hospitalization program. And I've been through a lot of programs, essentially! And it took me a long time to feel comfortable taking medicine because my family was not a big fan of it. And I wish that my community had been a little more open to the idea that if your brain doesn't produce the amount of serotonin that you need, then seeking medication makes sense. So I think that the best thing that I could have asked for from my community would have been more support in terms of seeking help.

ELG: Yeah…

Laura Díaz: I can -- if I can just sort of comment here? Same thing! All of my family told me, "Do not take medicine. It's bad for you. You're going to change completely." But I was adamant enough to ignore everything they were saying and, you know, take the medication anyway. And I do not regret it because I really don't think that I would be able to function normally without it. So props to you, Julia. We did it!

ELG: Yeah, really.

And, you know, there's a certain warrior-woman thing going on here. I mean, I think every one of you is a little bit of a warrior. And, you know, it might mean having to kind of take a risk and stand up to a boss who isn't being understanding about unreasonable pressure, but... I just bring this up because I want to I want to emphasize that there is some support out there and people have been working very hard on this now for several generations and it has made a difference and it can continue to make a difference. We can make a difference, we are making a difference by having a conversation like this one in public.

Marcy De La Torre: Definitely.

ELG: So that's the note I kind of want to wrap up on, I think I've said my piece, I've definitely talked enough! If anyone else would like to just say a few words in wrapping up, we'll call it a show.

Zoë Broussard: Yeah, productivity is not realistic if we're not mentally and emotionally present and it's important for our communities to recognize that and to create more avenues on a daily basis to normalize supporting each other on a more personal level. I'm very appreciative of this conversation to start, to get the ball rolling with how organizations can look to implement more effective change and support for differently abled people and also just for anyone, to make sure that they're taking care of themselves.

ELG: Yeah. Thank you.

Marcy De La Torre: I think it's the greatest question to ask, which was something I believe one of us beautiful ladies said, which is, "What's the human thing to do?" You know, and at the end of it all, like, we are human beings and it is a challenge for all of us. So why not empathize with it and help each other to make it through?

ELG: Yeah, thank you. All right, thank you, Laura Diaz, Marcy De La Torre, Zoë Broussard, Julia Alanís! I'm Elisabeth Le Guin, and you can join the conversation on these very interesting and important topics by going to our website, siyofuera.org, and telling us what you think and what your experiences have been. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you, ladies. And let's call it a show.