My guest today is legendary, bestselling author Steven Pressfield, who's known for his work on creativity, self-discipline, and how to overcome the inner force of what he calls, "capital R" - Resistance.

He’s written 25 books including the wildly popular - The War of Art, Turning Pro, Do The Work, and Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants to Be - which have influenced tons of successful writers, thinkers, artists and entrepreneurs - including Ryan Holiday and Rich Roll.

Steven wrote for 27 years before his first novel The Legend of Bagger Vance got published and made into a Robert Redford film starring Matt Damon and Will Smith. He’s also written a memoir Gov Cheese and many historical novels like, A Man at Arms, Gates of Fire, and his latest, The Arcadian!

I’ve been reading and recommending his work for years, so to have him on the show felt like such a full-circle, meant-to-be moment!

Here’s some of what Steven and I dive into in this episode:

Resistance (with a capital R):

That invisible, diabolical force that shows up every time you try to write the book, record the podcast, go to the gym, leave the job, or step toward your calling.

“Resistance will kill you”:

Steven shares why not following your creative or spiritual calling doesn’t just make you uncomfortable… it can slowly kill your spirit, your self‑trust, and your life-force.

Self‑​Discipline & ​Ritual:

We talk about why discipline gets such a bad rap, how it actually becomes an act of self‑love, and what it looks like in real life to “put your ass where your heart wants to be.”

Art as a Spiritual Practice:

Steve and I dig into the idea that we’re spiritual beings in a messy, beautiful, often painful world – and how making art (in any form) is one of the most powerful ways we can respond to and answer that.

His new book, The Arcadian:

He shares the 40‑year journey behind this story, karma, warriors, and what it costs a soul to live a life of violence… and try to find redemption.

I also share a bit about my own writing journey with my memoir, and how bumping up against Resistance has pushed me deeper into my spiritual practice and creative life.

This episode is for you if:

📌 You’re a writer, artist, entrepreneur, or big-hearted human with a dream

📌 You keep saying, “I’ll start tomorrow” (and tomorrow never quite seems to come)

📌 You feel called to something more, but resistance, fear, and self‑doubt keep tripping you up

If that’s you, I think this conversation will feel like both a loving hug and a gentle kick in the pants. ❤️

CONNECT WITH STEVEN:

Website

Books

Sarsaparilla Media

Writing Wednesdays

Resistance Reset (A Course)

YouTube

Instagram

Facebook

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TikTok

KAREN KENNEY BIO:

Karen Kenney is a writer, speaker, podcaster, certified spiritual mentor, and coach.

She’s known for her dynamic storytelling, her sense of humor, her Boston accent, and her no-bullshit approach to spirituality, self​-development, and transformational change work.

Karen helps people to navigate this whole “being human” experience using a variety of practical tools, personal stories, and universal principles.

She's been a yoga teacher for 25+ years, has been a Thai Yoga Massage practitioner since 2008.

She's also a Gateless Writing Instructor, the creator of WRITE CLUB , and the host of The Karen Kenney Show podcast.

She coaches clients individually in her 1-to-1 program: THE QUEST and in her HEART-TO-HEART DAYS using Voxer. She also leads a group program and community called THE NEST.

CONNECT WITH KAREN:

Website: http://karenkenney.com/

Podcast: https://www.karenkenney.com/podcast

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karenkenneylive/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karenkenneylive/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KarenKenney

It's the Karen Kenney show. Oh my God, you

guys. Okay, so I'm still coming down from the high. I just got

to be honest with you. I just had a conversation with somebody

I have been dying to share with you guys for so long, and he's

one of my literary heroes. He's he's a writer who I I just

admire and respect and love. And I was lucky enough to have a

private conversation with him last year. But I've been wanting

to talk to him and have him on the podcast, and I was just so

grateful that he said yes so that I could share him with all

of you. Now, some of you probably know who Stephen

Pressfield already is, but in case you don't, I think one of

the ways that a lot of people know who he is is from this book

here, The War of Art. Right, but he's written 25 books. You guys,

he had his first success not until he was like 52, and he

wrote this book, which many of you may know as a movie, called

The Legend of Bagavants. So I'm holding up the book right now,

The Legend of Bagavants, and it had Matt Damon in it. Shout out

to the Boston Boys. Had Matt Damon in it and Will Smith, and

it's a powerful allegory. It's an incredible story. So this was

his first novel that he got published. Not until he was like

52. He's had a 50-year writing career, and he has written 25

books, 12 novels, eight books on what I would call creative

resilience, creative discipline writing, and also a memoir, and

then three nonfiction books. I have them all here. Like I said,

I'm sure you've seen or heard of many of them. The War of Art,

right? The Artist's Journey, Put Your Ass where Your Heart Wants

to Be, The Authentic Swing, Turning Pro, Do the Work, right?

Nobody wants to read your shit, which totally makes me laugh

every time I see it. And the Daily Press field. Okay, but his

work is inspired, like other incredible artists and writers,

like Ryan Holiday and Rich Roll. If you've heard of the Rich Roll

podcast, Stephen has been instrumental in helping so many

creatives, so many artists, so many entrepreneurs to like

buckle down and do the work and push back against what he calls

capital I resistance. So in our conversation today, we talk

about his new book, The Arcadian. I'm going to hold that

sucker up too. We talk about his new book, The Arcadian. We talk

all about resistance. We talk about resiliency. We talk about

ritual. We talk about so many things that I think everybody,

everybody, whether you're a writer or a creative or not, is

going to find helpful, and that you're going to be able to apply

to your own life. He is such a fantastic person. He's wise.

He's entertaining. He's lovely, and I think you're going to walk

away from this. You know, loving him is-I don't know if maybe as

much as I do, but you're certainly going to get curious

about him. I don't know how you couldn't. And one part of the

conversation that like really stands out is we talk about this

concept that he says where resistance will kill you,

resistance will kill you, and I hope just that line alone makes

you curious enough to tune in to find out more about what he has

to say about that because every single one of us has bumped up

against resistance somewhere in our life, whether it's resisting

having the difficult conversation, resisting having

to speak your truth or use your voice, resisting sitting your

ass in the chair to write that book, resisting leaving the job

and really starting the business that you want to do, resisting

your calling, and if we don't resist our calling. There, if we

do resist our calling, I should say there are consequences. This

is an amazing conversation, like 60 minutes. It's jam packed,

full of so much goodness, and I hope, like from my heart, from

my heart to your heart, I hope you enjoy this conversation as

much as I had having it. Let me know what you think. Please

share this with people as well. I think it's a conversation that

is going to be helpful.

Like I said, to a lot of people, and just thank you so much for

being here and thank you for tuning in. Hey, you guys!

Welcome to the Karen Kenney Show. I am out of my mind wicked

excited to be bringing this very special guest, I was already

telling Stephen before we started recording what a treat

this is for me, and you guys know I love you out there at

home too. But this sucker is also for me in my hat because

I've been wanting to talk to him for a really long time. So

Stephen Pressfield, welcome. To the Karen Kenney show.

Thanks for having me, Karen. I'm delighted to be here.

I'm so excited to have you, and I could talk. I

already know. Like we've got about an hour together. I know I

could talk to you for hours because I have so many things

that not only do I want to say, but I want to ask you. But first

and foremost, you have a new book out. We're going to get

into this sucker, the Arcadian. I'm not going to talk about

this, but before we dive into that, one of the things I like

to ask all my guests, especially people who have been around the

block for a wicked long time, who know their craft, know what

they're doing really well, and are known for whether whatever

they're whatever field they're in, one of the things I'm most

curious about, and obviously use your discretion what you want to

share, what you don't want to share. But I'm dying to know

because all of your books, I read your memoir, Government

Cheese, which I loved, but almost all of your stories, or

even when you're interviewed, they start talking to you when

you're like older, like 27. But and I'm curious, like, what were

you like as a kid, and the way that you were as a kid? Do you

think it informs the work that you do now?

Oh, that's a great question. I grew up in a town

that was so vanilla. Its name was Pleasantville.

Oh my!

This is this is a real town in near New York City,

suburb of New York City, and I grew up as just like a total

sort of leave it to beaver kind of a kid, you know, sheltered,

real sheltered, no real experience of the world. You

know, my parents protected my brother and me from you know bad

stuff, and yeah, there's really nothing, nothing really out of

the ordinary as in in growing up, other than the fact that

when I finally sort of I got married real young, and like

right out of college.

Yeah,

and then tried to write a book. The first first book I

tried to write one, and that exploded, imploded, and I sort

of wound up, as you know from Government Cheese, that memoir,

kind of on the road and doing a lot of crazy jobs and sort of

spiraling down the drain

for

quite a few years, but it was all I think very positive, and

it was sort of a reaction to as sheltered as I had been as a as

a little kid that I just sort of, on some level, though I

wasn't deliberately trying to do this, I kind of needed to see

some some of the hard side of the world, and that has informed

everything writing-wise from then on. But not my childhood,

really. You know,

yeah, I didn't

grow up in an orphanage. I didn't know it

wasn't like a Dickensian thing or anything like that. No, not

at all.

Yeah. Well, I find it fascinating that you were a

caddy as a child, because as we know, like you you worked really

hard. I mean, you didn't like correct me if I get any any of

this wrong. So I've read so much of your stuff, and I hope I keep

all the facts straight. But you basically didn't get your first

novel published until you were like 52, right? Is that correct?

And it was the the legend of Bhagavan's, which I for this is

so fascinating. So okay, I've been a yoga teacher since like

1999, so of course I'm familiar with the Bhagavad Gita, right?

This film comes out, and I see the movie first. Okay, I used to

also live in L.A. and like, so I went from basically like Boston,

Mass to L.A. back. Now I'm in New Hampshire, but I remember

the film. Of course, Matt Damon was in all the things, and Matt

Damon is one of my favorite guys. And so, but I remember

watching the movie and being like, "This reminds me of

Idranist battle when he's resisting his call because I was

like I knew I had read the Bhagavad Gita and I thought it

was fascinating and then you know I got the book and stuff

but I just think it's amazing that you were a caddy as a child

but then your first big hit had to do with golfing you must have

drawn from your experiences when you were a kid and what you saw

in some ways, yes, no,

yeah, definitely. I mean, back in those days, before

there was such a thing as golf carts,

yeah,

you know, everybody that played golf walked, and

they had to, you know, somebody carried their bag for them, and

it was if you were like I started when I was 11,

wow,

and that was and so did everybody else that did this

back in those days. It was a great way if you were a little

kid to make money, you know, because you you know you know

you could just walk on and do it. So yeah, I I kind of fell

in. With the Bhagavad Gita,

which

is the story of the great warrior Arjuna, who receives

spiritual instruction from his charioteer. So I thought, who's

who is Krishna? In other words, God in human form, as you know.

So I thought one day, why not do a story where instead of of a

troubled warrior, it's a troubled golf champion, and

instead of his charioteer, it's his caddie. Because I love the

idea that when God appears in human form on Earth, He doesn't

appear as a king or a wealth. He appears as a servant.

Yeah,

like Jesus was a man of sorrows, right?

Yes.

So I thought, you know, the charioteer is a servant of

the warrior. He's, but yet he happens to be God. I like, so I

love that that idea, and so I just I'm a big believer in

stealing ideas, as long as you put a little twist on them. So

that was so. It's great that you got that, Karen, because most

people didn't. In fact, not one in 100 saw that that bag of ants

came from the Bhagavad Gita.

Well, I thought it was just brilliant, and when

you're saying I loved the idea, I was like, I loved it, I loved

it too, Steve. So I'm so glad that you actually wrote it. It's

like so fantastic, and you know, it's amazing to me that you've

had a 50-year writing career, 25 books. That's like so wild, and

I have it here. Like, so you've written like 12 novels. You're

known for your like gripping historical military fiction. I

mean, some of your books are even-I don't know if I want to

say required reading, but definitely encouraged reading

for people in the military because weren't you in the

Marines? You were a Marine, correct?

Yeah, yeah.

And and so you've had 12 novels. You've had eight

books on what I would say either writing or creative discipline.

You have your memoir, and then you have three nonfiction books,

which I also read. Right, the knowledge. I thought this was so

fantastic. So, but these books about because this is what like

when you look back here, like all of Ryan Holiday's books back

there. I got a Rich Rolls book. All your buddies, right? But you

have influenced so many writers, myself included, so many

creatives. You really you're well known for talking about

resistance, but today, and I do I want to totally get into that.

But the more I've been thinking about you and been thinking

about your work and just the effect that it's had in my own

life as a creative and just me as a human, I also think you

write a lot about, or you embody what I would call resilience and

ritual. All these A's, right? The three A's: resistance, the

resilience, and the ritual. But I want to kind of get into the

resistance, and I'm curious if you said that maybe not

consciously, but you worked before you started writing, like

seriously, right? You worked 21 jobs in 11 different states. You

were like a school teacher. You drove tractor trailers. I come

from a truck driver. I'm a blue collar kid. I come from a truck

driver family, right? You worked offshore rigs. You you picked

fruit with migrant workers or as a migrant worker. You then

eventually get into copywriting and and all of that stuff. But

there are times when you've lived in your van. There are

times when you like lived in this abandoned house in the

woods, right? Do you think that? Um. Do you think that these

diversions, these jobs before you were writing. Do you think

that was resistance and action in your own life?

Yes, in in in it was more than that. I think looking

back on it, of course, at the time you're so immersed in it,

you have no idea what you're doing.

Sure,

but I for sure the what preceded that period of my life

was trying to write a novel and kind of having it crash and

burn. So I was like running away from the idea of writing. I

thought this is terrible. It's only going to drive me insane if

I keep doing this. So you know, I sort of fell out of the bottom

of the middle class and into the working class, and kind of lived

there for for quite a while. So it was I was definitely running

away from writing, and that period ended for me when I

started writing again. At the same time, I think it was a

really fertile period for me, as you know, solid gold all the way

through. Even though I was miserable most of the time, it's

stuff that you you call on on the soul level every day since

then. You know. So it's you know I think it's a standard thing. A

lot of people have this in their lives, you know that kind of a a

time in the wilderness, so to speak. You know,

yes,

and that was it for me.

It is a time in the wilderness. That's like very

much that hero's journey act, right? When you're lost in the

world, you're lost in the wilderness, but it seems like

there's like these two pivotal moments. Like the first one is,

I think you wrote like a whole book, and then at the very end,

you like blew it up, and it blew up your marriage, and it blew

like you just didn't finish it. You wouldn't finish it, and

there was like that scene when you totally take yourself out at

the knees, right? Resistance so at work, and then you have the

other scene when you sit down, you sit your ass down, right,

and at the typewriter, and you hammer it out. And I love how

you describe that. You were saying that even the sound that

a manual typewriter makes is violet, right? Like, and you

were like hammering it out, and you found yourself. You finally

finished like writing something, whether it's a page or whatever,

and you said. Then you get up and you go to do the dishes, and

as you're washing the dishes, like you felt yourself change,

like your mood had shifted. You find yourself whistling, and

it's like so that resistance was like this, like you kind of

called that series of time, like a blue collar hell that you were

in, like this, this really intense time, and then there's

this decision, or whatever whatever went on inside of you.

We just sat your ass down and did it and typed, and then

you're changed, like you're resurrected in that moment. Like

that's a really big thing.

Well, first, Karen, thank you for you are like a

real. I'm sort of embarrassed because you're such a student of

all of this stuff and how you remember. You know, it's like

you know my life better than I do. Oh, come on! But but very

definitely that moment that's described in the War of Art in

my book, The War of Art, where I did, you know, finally got the

typewriter out again after running away from it for about

seven years, and that was a one of those mysterious moments in

life, you know, where the goddess kind of smiles on you,

and you you realize I've I've found something that works.

Hey, okay, so you were saying that that pivotal

moment when you sat down after like seven years of not writing

or resisting or whatever that it's that moment when like you

find something you find that thing that is working for you

and one of the things that I find so fascinating about this

and you said several things which I'm going to come back to

is I want to kind of talk about this whole thing about

resilience, about resistance, because this is what. So you

guys, writers at home. Anybody who's a writer, a creative. I'm

married to a professional musician. That's what he does

for his gig. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm married to one too. All

of these books here, all right, are so fantastic. This was the

one that like like sold over 500,000 copies. The War of Art,

with my accent, I apologize. That's the War of Art. Break

through the blocks and win your inner creative battles. But all

of these books, you guys, and I'll I'll link them all and tell

you all about them. We're going to talk about maybe a couple of

them. These books have been so incredibly helpful for so many

creatives. I hope that I know you're very humble. I've seen

you teach and speak, and you're a little. I was talking about

resistance. You're a little resistant sometimes to receiving

praise and receiving compliments. I just know this

about you, but you have to know, and I hope you let it in your

hat on some level. Just how many people, like how many writers

and creatives and people who are trying to do the damn thing,

like that you have given them such hope and such inspiration

and motivation and all this stuff, but in this book, in the

War of Art, there's this great thing that you say on your

website, and I just want to share it with people. I'm not

going to read the whole thing, but you say this: you say if

you're an aspiring writer or artist, I've got good news and

bad news. First, the bad news: one, there's an enemy. Oh, I

never forget the first time I read that. Two, you are the

enemy. Three, resistance will kill you. So let's start with

the bad news, Stephen. Let's dive into this whole thing about

resistance because I know that I have experienced it at such a

deep level in my life. Picture

power grid is kind of like the Malibu power. Oh, here

we go. Okay, we're back.

Yeah. So, so I was saying that. Did you hear me

talking about the bad? You were

saying you are the enemy.

Yeah, yeah, you are the enemy. And then number

three, and this is a very serious thing to say. You say

resistance will kill you. So can you talk about? I know what you

mean by it, but for the listeners, or maybe somebody who

hasn't come across your work before, tell us a little bit

about resistance. Tell us about this enemy that lives within us.

That we are somehow the enemy, and then how this thing will

kill us if we're not careful.

There definitely is a diabolical negative force in the

world that nobody tells you about in school. Nobody prepares

you for this, but when you sit down to the blank page or the

blank canvas, or when you buy a treadmill and bring it home and

find you never get on it, there is a negative force. The playing

field is not level. The blank page is absolutely hostile to

you. It's not neutral, and this force I call resistance because

when, for me, when I sit down at the keyboard, it kind of

radiates off the keyboard. This negative force trying to

distract us, trying to tell us we're not good enough. That same

voice is in all of our head, everybody's head. And but the

crazy part about this is this force of resistance doesn't just

want to stop you from doing your work. It wants to kill you. It

wants to, and by that I mean almost. I don't. I don't want to

overgeneralize, but when you find somebody that is a

full-blown alcoholic or some kind of a drug abuser or any

kind of vice, an addiction to drama in your life, or you know,

abuse of others or yourself. Almost always, in my opinion, it

comes from not following a creative imperative that's

inside you, and that's what I mean. Why it'll kill you? It'll

turn you into a drunk. It'll turn you into a child abuser.

It'll turn you into somebody that's so depressed or alienated

or whatever that they can't get out of bed in the morning. It'll

finish you off. And if we look around at our friends and high

that we went into went into high school with, you can see that

there are casualties.

I agree.

You know, along the way, and it's a lot. And I think

if you if you get into the deep psychological inner stuff, a lot

of times I think it comes from not following whatever call we

have within us, a creative call, which doesn't have to be the

arts. It can be a lot of other things. It can be ways of

helping other people. It can be being the kind of pillar of a

family that holds a family together, and you know that kind

of thing. So anyway, I really do think that this force is not to

be trifled with, and we have to be aware of it. And most people

are not. I certainly wasn't for years and years. But once I sort

of gave a name to it, resistance with a capital R, in my own

mind, and recognized that there was an enemy that I had to fight

every single day. Sort of, you have to slay the dragon every

morning anew every morning. That that helped turn a corner for me

and and kind of got me on a path of discipline and and of hard

work that has saved me.

I double a men hands. I always say I could not

love this enough, and I 100% agree. And it is something that

that word kill is a very strong word, right? But it does. What

not only does it slowly? I think death by 1000 paper cuts, right?

Yeah. Not only does it kill us, it like it. What it does is it

robs you. It robs you of peace. It robs you of your ability to

take yourself seriously. It robs you of your self integrity. It

robs you of so many things, and that that is no joke when you

say every single day, you know. And part of the work that I do

is as a spiritual mentor, and one of the things I talk to

people, I talk about the five Ds of a DSP of a daily spiritual

practice, and I say you need dedication, determination,

discipline, and devotion. Daily is the first one, though, right?

Daily dedication, determination, discipline, and devotion, and I

think a lot of people give the word discipline like they think

discipline is like a dirty word. They don't like that word, and

we're not talking about discipline that is inflicted on

us from outside us, from somebody else, like a drill

sergeant or whoever. Self discipline is different, and

that to me is one of the most powerful. Tools that we have.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Well, you really hit the nail on the head, Karen. I

mean, here's the thing that in school they should teach you

that number one before they teach you how to spell or you

know go to the bathroom, and nobody teach nobody teaches you

that. You're lucky if you have a mentor or someone that can can

kind of guide you, but like you say, there is discipline that is

imposed upon us from without by a drill sergeant or coach or

teacher or mentor or parents, right? But then when we're on

our own, which we do become on our own the minute we become an

artist or a writer or whatever, right? We quit a job, like you

know, your husband is a musician, right? So all of a

sudden, the question arises: What time do you get up in the

morning? What is your mindset when you get up in the morning?

What is your day like? Who do you spend your day with? What do

you do during the during the working hours of the day, and so

on and so forth. And then when it gets into deeper questions of

like, what do you do when something you've been working on

for two years crashes and burns? What do you do when your

artistic calling is in conflict with the family, with your

daughter that wants you to attend the soccer games, or

somebody in the family that's sick, you have an aging parent

or whatever. Like that, all those questions are

self-discipline questions, and it's it's a it's a skill that we

all need to learn before we even think about learning to be a

dancer or a comedian or a all that stuff. It's great. the the

writing part the artic artistic part is the easy part the hard

part is the self discipline part

getting your great

answer to this is once you've kind of got it there's

nothing that can stop you

okay this is so important because what we're

talking about these these things are very linked, right?

Resistance and resilience. But before we get into this pot,

which is like what I would call, like from your book that I love,

put your ass where your hat wants to be, right? This is kind

of the solution to the resistance in a way, right?

Yeah.

But so it's like you're talking about How, first

of all, to all the listeners out there, if you listen to what

Stephen's saying, he's like, "You're not alone in this. Like,

we are all bumping up against this. Whether you're an

entrepreneur, whether you're a writer, whether you're a mom,

whether whatever the thing is, we bump up against, and it is.

It's like a force field, isn't it? Doesn't it feel like it's

like you said? It like radiates off the keyboard or radiates off

the screen, but whatever it is, whether it's like you said you

were going to go to the gym, but then you don't. What the thing

that you're resisting that you know that on the other side of

it is like the real you, right? It's like the you that can like

like go after the dream, and you talk about how you and I had

this conversation. This is like twofold, and you said it to me,

but you've said it to 1000s and 1000s of other people. Is that

when the resistance is really big? In some ways, this is good

news because it's like the shadow on a tree, right? The

bigger the tree, the bigger the shadow this thing is going to

make. So the bigger the resistance, it's usually because

the dream or the book or the writing or the goal or whatever

it is is wicked important to you. Is that right?

That's exactly right. I mean, the bigger, the bigger,

like like you say, Karen, when we feel tremendous resistance to

something, it's a good sign because it shows us resistance

is kind of this. It's a it's an intelligent force, and it

absolutely looks into us and can see like if if we're Herman

Melville and we have the idea to write a book called Moby Dick.

Yes,

Resistance knows. Wow, that's a big one. You know, if

this guy gets this done, boy, that's going to be great,

fantastic for him. So I'm going to stop him. Resistance gears up

to throw the massive wave of resistance at Herman Melville

because he has this giant project. Right. Same thing with

us. If if we have some little idea, a project we want, there's

going to be a very little resistance. If we have a big

idea, there's going to be big resistance. And resistance takes

so many forms. I don't want to kind of digress too much, but

no,

please do.

It it can be as simple as depression, we might find

ourselves just getting down on ourselves, you know. And this

has happened to me many times where I'll be struggling with

something for weeks, just a bad feeling. I can't get it

together, and I'll say to myself, "Wait a minute! Wait a

minute! This is resistance. This is because I'm not working on

that new thing." And the minute I start, it clears up. Another

thing is that I think we'll get into we'll get sick. Resistance

will take the form of making us sick. Another thing, it will get

it in a car accident. We'll hurt ourselves. We'll hurt ourselves

at the gym. All kinds of things that you would never think have

any relation to some book or a dream that you have, but they

absolutely do. This diabolical force knows how to stop us. And

what's what's even more insidious is resistance will

sometimes piggyback on legitimate things, like let's

say we have an older parent that that needs our help. Resistance

will grab grab onto that, and when we when we're trying to

think, well, should I sit down at the piano and work on my new

concerto, or should I go see mom, which is a perfectly

legitimate thing, right? Mom is suffering. That's resistance. So

the answer in a case like that is we have to compartmentalize.

We have to learn. Okay, I can go see mom and I can work on the

concerto, but I can't let going to see mom stop me from doing my

real work because that'll kill me.

What I mean, I just want to. I just want

everybody to take in for a moment what you just said,

because if I don't do this calling, if I don't do this

thing, if I don't try to put energy, time, love, effort, you

know, into this dream, it will kill me. And I'm getting

emotional again because I because the last time I talked

to you, we we we had a call last year. We talked for like a half

hour, and I was telling you how I bump up against resistance.

How like in every other area of my life, I get shit done. It's

like I say I'm going to do it, I do it, and I've been writing

this memoir for like forever. I'm finally at the end stage of

the first draft, you know. And I'm good for you, kid. Thank

you. I've been I've been busting my ass right, but I have never

experienced so much resistance in my life, and I remember

telling you this when we were talking, and I was saying about

the DSP and my daily spiritual practice, and you said to me,

"It sounds to me like you want this, meaning the writing, you

want this to be your daily spiritual practice, and I just

burst into tears

immediately.

I burst into tears, and you said to me, "I

love that you're having this reaction because what it's

telling me is like how much it really means to you. And can you

say a little bit more about this because I think what one of the

things you talk about is this ritual of writing, right? And

you talk about the muse, and you talk about writing as a

spiritual practice, and you, and it's not just ritual. So there's

like kind of the spiritual element for me, but then there's

also the ritual of like how you put on your work boots, your

Timberlands, and your lucky laces, and like you're going to

work, like you take it seriously. It's like you're

letting the muse know I'm serious or something, but I

don't want to put words in your mouth. But can you talk about

how writing maybe a spiritual practice or the ritual, and what

you mean for the listeners? I know what you mean, but what you

mean by the muse and and why you need to put your ass in the

chair with your work boots on. Why you do that invocation of

the poem that you recite before you write? Can you talk about

that process?

Let me talk about something else and then we'll

get to that. Yeah,

perfect.

And forgive me if I might have we might have talked

about this before, but I'll tell you a little story.

I love stories.

I I had a neighbor a few years ago named Tom

Laughlin, who was the actor and director of a couple of movies

of the Billy Jack movies, which nobody has heard of now. But

anyway, in his other life, he was a kind of a maverick Jungian

therapist, and people would come to him with cancer life thing,

and they would come to him at the last gasp after they've

tried everything else, every kind of mainstream medicine

thing, and what he would do is he would ask a lady. Let's say a

lady came to him in the fourth stage terminal cancer. He would

say to her, "Was there ever a dream that you had when you were

a young girl that you didn't do? And let's say the lady would say

something like, "You know, I loved. I wanted to be a concert

pianist. I played for till I was 20 years old. Then I got

married. I had kids, and I kind of set it aside. So he would

immediately say to her, "Start playing the piano again,

completely serious. Get the best piano. If you have to rent a

Steinway for $1,000 a month, get it. Get the best teacher you can

possibly. In other words, return." To that dream, and

start to act out on it, and cancers would go into remission

because those because that creative impulse, what I like to

think of as an underground river that's flowing inside us, we

when we don't let that river flow, it flows into malignant

channels, you know. That's why I say resistance will kill you.

I believe

it. So, in other words, that's sort of. I'm not sure why

I got off on that, but I I think it's really important of how how

powerful this negative force is, and how we say is writing a

spiritual practice or art a spiritual practice, absolutely,

100% the same as meditation, beyond meditation. If you ask

me, in fact, I would say I'm a big believer that we're

spiritual beings having a material existence, right? And

we got dropped onto this planet, into this material flesh,

yes,

and in this world that may be beautiful, but is also

hell, and and and we. What is the answer to that? In my

opinion, the answer is to make art.

I agree. Art

is our answer, whatever form that takes. It doesn't have

to be Picasso painting a painting, it can be, you know,

guys, blue collar guys doing custom motorcycles in their

garage on the weekend, or it can be any other kind of thing.

Starting an organization that helps abandoned children,

whatever, whatever it is, art is our answer to that. And if you

believe in God, which I do. That's what he or she is looking

for, and so the sitting down each day and or going to the

studio to do your dance or working on whatever it is, is

our answer to heaven, to God. You know, our way of overcoming

whatever this dark force is. It's our response to this dark

force. Why you know the Almighty put this into the world? I don't

know, but it's there.

I I'm I'm rarely speechless, Stephen. Ask anybody

who knows me, but that is so beautiful, so powerful, and I

think so true. I have seen, even in myself, that if I'm not

making time to write my anxiety, I'll get a little more anxious.

I get a little more squirrely up in the head, you know. Get a

little more jumpy. You get a little more irritable, and it's

like there's this life force. There is this creative force

that is trying to flow through you, and it's like if you're not

if you're not doing what you're meant to do, it is like this

pressure that like builds up inside of you. And like you

said, I mean that this is where we get auto autoimmune disease.

I'm not saying the only way, but I do think it's one of the ways

that we slowly drive ourselves mad. Do you know what I mean?

And I think I think it's so important. And part of this,

though, if we can loop back to like the self discipline part,

and I might have these things wrong. So feel again, feel free

to correct me. But you're a person who really believes in

hard work. Like you had said several times, like some some

version of talent is bullshit. But the one thing I know how to

do is I know how to work. I can grind, and so. But you get up

like wicked early in the morning. You're at the gym at

like 445 or something. You work out, I think, like five days a

week, and then you write every day for a couple of hours. So

can you talk a little bit about why that, what, how that kind of

helps you push back against resistance as well? That

discipline,

at least for me, that seems like the the only way to

do it, Karen. Like I, I'm not a believer that you can kind of

half-ass your way out of this thing and do, oh, you know, I'll

do it when I feel like it. I'll do two or three. You know, for

me, it's like an everyday thing. You know, and if I miss a day,

okay, I gotta. I'll make up for it. You know, I mean, I'm not,

you know, a machine. But to do it every day is a very important

thing, and to do it as hard as you can, to do to leave it all

on the on the table, you know, or on the basketball court,

whatever. However you look at it, so I I do, you know. During

my younger years, each day was a new adventure, one craziness

after another. Now that when I became a writer, went from my

hero's journey to my artist journey, which I know you know

what I'm talking about.

Yeah. So when you when you turn pro, you mean when

you were turning pro?

Well, do you have a book, The Artist's Journey, by

any chance?

Of course, I do. Ah,

there we go. So what I kind of said then was that I'll

give you the real short version here for our listeners. I think

the hero's journey. In our life that we all have, or have many

of them, is when we're searching for our calling, and we bounce

around, and we're we get divorced, and we get drunk, and

we do all these kind of things, and we're we're lost, and we're

and it's very exciting. It's a real adventure, you know. It's

the Odyssey, it's Matt Damon, you know, going across, and then

we come home to Ithaca, you know, and we kind of find our

calling. We have that moment, like I had with the typewriter,

where I said, "Okay, I'm a writer, right? And after then,

you start to ask yourself, "Well, if I'm a writer, what am

I? What am I going to write? What's what is my what's what's

my genre? You know that kind of. But once we then we go on what I

call the artist journey, and from the outside everything

looks extremely boring. Our life becomes very very simple because

we are dedicated, like I'm sure you were with your are with your

memoir, to just doing this one thing, right? And I used to say,

or I have said, that on my hero's journey I put 390,000

miles on my old Chevy van. Now that I'm on my artist journey, I

barely drive to the grocery store because I'm working. I

haven't got time for that bullshit, you know. So that's I

forgot exactly how we got on this subject, but the the ritual

of a daily thing

is

once you become a musician, you know you're in the

studio. You know you're doing something every day. You know,

so and it's the same with any other form of art or any other

thing that's like that entrepreneurial. You know, if

it's a business, it's it's an everyday thing.

Well, you know, one of the things that you just

said, which I want to jump off of, is to now coming to this

piece of the resilience. Now I know that you and your sweetie

Diana sadly lost your home that you had lived in for a wicked

long time to the fires in L.A. and I don't. I still think

you're not back there yet, but you said, but you said something

that struck me because I watch like your Instagrams, your

videos and stuff that you make, and on one of them you said, you

know, we're still not over there, we're still not back

there yet, but you said the work saved me, the work saved me, and

can you can you just speak to that a little bit? This

resiliency, because I think of resiliency with you as not

pulling the pin,

but yeah, the work you know this house that we're in

right here is a rented house.

Yes,

but and the main thing I was asking, and I know Diana

was too, when we moved in, is can we work here? Is it you know

like your office behind you looks to me like a great place

to work you know it's kind of homey and funky and it's got all

your your little chachkis and everything, so I can work here

in this house and so that has saved me you know that's like a

grounding thing for me

yes

like you know I know we've heard stories of like

athletes that their father died or something, and but they found

that when they got on the football field or they got on

the basketball court, that was like a refuge for them. Yes, you

know, and that's what you know writing is for me. So as long as

I can keep doing it, everything else will find will sort itself

out.

Yeah, I love that, and I also I want to say

congratulations because I know that I think if I recall when

when the fire happened, you guys lost a lot of your stock, a lot

of your books because you also have your own media company,

Sasperilla Media, and your your dad used to say to you when you

were kids about do you want to have a like a glass of sass or

something like that. So you named it. You know more

about me than I do, Karen.

Well, no, I mean, I really, I, I, I'm, I'm very

curious about the people who have helped me in some way,

right? Like so, and when I show up, like I'm serious about this.

I take this seriously. I take your time seriously, and and I'm

really curious about what makes you tick and what inspires you

as well. But so I know now that people can get signed copies of

The Memoir through through Sarsaparilla.

They can get signed copies of Put Your Ass Where Your Hat

Wants to Be, and then this daily tomb. Speaking of daily rituals,

you guys, this book, the Daily Press Field, is so fantastic.

It's like 365 days of little-I would call them like-call them

little meditations, little lessons, little snippets of

wisdom, but to help you start a project and get all the way

through a project. And I know Ryan Holiday had like little

inspiration for this as well, but this was this is so

fantastic as well, and I could keep talking to you about all of

this, but I would be remiss if we don't talk about this, the

Arcadian, your new book. Now, something you said in an

interview or on Instagram really struck me. You said this book

was like 40 years in the making, and that you had to like wait

like that inspiration from the quote. So, and I don't want to

speak for you, but do you want to talk about this book because

there's somebody who you're a friend with, a younger kid. He

might be the guy who's been helping you make videos and

promote and stuff, and he left a beautiful and brilliant review

on Amazon about this book, and it was something about like how

you're well known for writing about the warrior ethos and like

being a warrior and what what it is, but this book and these

characters, right? And I'll let you tell talk about them.

There's something about like the cost of doing all that warrior

stuff, the the soul level cost, and like, can you regain

yourself? But I don't want to put. So tell me about this book.

Tell me about the 40 years, and like the heartbeat of this

thing.

I found a quote about 40 years ago.

Yeah,

from the ancient Greek philosopher Empedocles, and at

the time I I said I got to save this because I know there's a

book in here somewhere, and I carried it with me for like 40

years and never could figure out how what what the book was, and

the gist of the quote was, anyone who takes another

person's life three is I'll try and quote it now three times

10,000 years that soul shall wander, an outcast from

felicity, etc. etc. In other words, you're doomed if you for

this particular crime, so I just thought, oh, there's a book in

there. It's got to be a hero there. That's gonna and and

finally I connected it with a recurring character of mine who

is the Arcadian, an ancient warrior, and this was the story

and is the story of like his last lifetime, where he finally

gets off the-he's been doomed karmic

wheel. He gets off the karmic wheel, the wheel

of karma. Yeah, for crimes he committed in a deep

many lifetimes in the past. Wow, he is doomed to be reborn,

always as a warrior, always to kill and be killed. And so this

story is like his last lifetime, where he finally gets off that

that wheel of karma, and which, as you were talking about the

the idea of of kind of the warrior virtues and that sort of

stuff, I think really applies to an artist. But if you're an

actual warrior that's actually killing people and doing that

sort of stuff, you're rolling up some bad, bad karma for

yourself, you know. So one has to move out of that archetype

eventually, out of the warrior archetype into a higher

archetype to be saved. So that's what this story is about.

This is so thanks

for thanks for highlighting it a little bit

here. Oh my

God, for sure. I mean, and you know, also Gates

of Fire and the Warrior Ethos. You guys, he write like I said.

You've written novels. You've written three nonfiction, a

memoir, whatever. And what we're just the the Arcadian. I to be

honest, I haven't read it yet, but I cannot wait. I've been

like sitting on it. It's in my it's in my pile, and part of it

is because, and I might have mentioned this when we talked

last time. I don't know if I did or didn't, but my mother was

murdered when I was 12 years old.

Oh no, you didn't tell me that. Yeah,

so that this concept, this idea that anybody

who takes the life of another person is like on this karmic

wheel, and I think it's so fascinating. I think one of the

one of the most maybe the word is transformative things that we

can do is to take our traumas and our tragedies and turn them

into art. I think it's one of the most incredible ways that we

can kind of as maybe not the one I can't speak for my mother's

murderer. I mean, I can I can tell you that whole story

another time. But but I think about him and I think about that

the cost of of that that act. And I know for me, like the the

ripple effect or the echo of violence and what it was like in

my life. This is what my memoir is about. But being able to like

kind of take that thing and make something beautiful or helpful

or important or I don't know whatever the readers are going

to receive that book from me has been a healing has been a

healing process it's been an incredible journey you know

I think that's you know absolutely right on Karen and

and like I was saying before, our answer, our as mortal human

beings, to the the difficulties and the tragedies of this life,

is to create art in one form or another. One thing I would say

to anybody that's listening and thinking about that for

the work that you produce doesn't have. Be

directly out of whatever the trauma was.

That's right.

You know, I think like a lot of guys in in the armed

forces come back from Iraq or Afghanistan or any of those

things, and bearing various trauma or things like that, and

want to write it. What you write doesn't have to be your war

story. It can be something completely different. Think

about Tolkien, and that came out of the trenches in World War One

and wound up writing, you know, I'm blanking on the Hobbit, the

Hobbits,

yeah,

all that sort of stuff created this kind of magical

fantasy world, you know, rather than telling the story of trench

warfare, but absolutely that came out of that experience, you

know. So it's our humans answer art, you know, to the to the

horrors that we face sometimes in in life.

Okay, I have a final. I want to let you go, but

I have a final thing I want to share, and then ask you a final

question, if that's okay. So we talk. We're talking about the

work and the work that you do, and we're talking about art. And

you say this: you say the war of art is not about genius; it's

about work. And you say we can't control the level of talent

we've been given. We have no control over the nature of our

gift. What we can control is our self motivation, our self

discipline, our self validation, and our self reinforcement. You

said we can control how hard and how smart we work, and you have

this wonderful weekly newsletter that I'm a happy recipient of on

Wednesdays, Writing Wednesdays, and your last couple of emails

were actually about this, about self reinforcement, how we can

reinforce the self. Do you remember what you wrote in

those?

Yeah. All

right. Do you want to? Can you just like leave our

listeners? Because I know somebody out there is listening,

and they're like, "Oh my God! But Steve, you don't understand

how hard it is, and I don't know how to grind, and I don't know

how to work, and like, how do I self reinforce? And you're

saying, hey, we can control how hard we work and how smart we

work. So, can you leave our listeners with maybe a little,

little kick in the ass, a little love, a little loving but firm,

you know, inspiration?

You know, we were talking before, Karen, you and

I, about the difference between externally imposed discipline

and self-discipline.

Yes. So, if

we had, if let's say we're writers, we're dancers, we're

whatever it is, if we had a coach or a mentor or a spouse or

somebody that was our, you know, our champion. At the end of the

day, they'd say to us, "Wow, Karen, great work! You sat down.

You know, I know you were distracted today. I know you had

a lot of shit on your mind, but you sat down. You did was a bad

day. You weren't feeling right. You really didn't do very good

work today. But goddamn it, you sat down and you did it. God

bless you. You know, and here's an ice cream cone and a slice of

pizza, you know. So that's what would happen if we had that

person that was going to look after us, but we don't. So we

have to do that to ourselves. Crazy as it sounds, we have to

talk to ourselves, and at the end of the day, we have to say,

you know, goddamn it! You know, you sat down, you did your work.

Maybe you didn't work as long as you wish. Maybe you didn't do as

well, but you kept grinding. You kept you were rolling the pee

for another day. You know, and God bless you, and some sort of

a you know reward or whatever. So that's another skill they

never teach you. It seems silly when you actually do it, but

nobody else is going to do that for us, you know, because nobody

knows. That's the other thing. I'll say one last thing, Karen.

It's like no,

we you can do as much as you want.

You know this just like I do. When you're an artist,

what of whatever form it is, and you achieve some kind of. You

may have a great day working at the keyboard. You did something

really wonderful. Nobody knows. There's no way you can share it

with anybody. There's nobody cheering. Nobody throws confetti

at you. You're all alone with this thing, and the voice of

resistance is immediately going to come to your head saying,

"Well, it wasn't that good, you know what you did today. It's

really kind of a piece of shit when you look at it. You know,

if we compare it to tolls, that kind of stuff. So we need in

those moments to be able to reinforce ourselves. We have to

be our own coach, our own mentor, and and it's it seems

silly, but it's the difference. It's like the difference between

a professional and an amateur, and the difference between being

able to make it and falling by the wayside. And I'm guarantee

you that anybody you admire in the creative arts, they do this.

Stephen King does it. You know, everybody, everybody that knows

how to Ryan Holiday does it. He is a master of this kind of

thing.

Yes.

So anyway, that's we could talk forever. I gotta go.

I appreciate you and your time and your wisdom,

your presence so much. Thank you for being here with me and all

of my listeners. It has been an absolute delight, and I hope one

of my goals is to get out to California. I would love to meet

you in person sometime. You're so fantastic, and I'm so

grateful for you. And I hope you really let that land. I hope you

let that land. Yeah, I

let it land.

Okay. Thank

you, Karen, for for the massive preparation you've done

the last time and this time. And I hope we do get together and

meet sometime in person. I'm sure we will. All

right. Give my best to Diana. Take care. All

right. Take

care of yourself and good luck on the memoir. Keep

plugging.

I will. Thank you, sweetheart. Bye bye.

Okay. Bye.

Hey. Thanks so much for listening to the show.

I really love spending some time together. Now, if you dig the

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