On this episode we talk with Mike Nicholas, VP of HR at Everence about some ways to prepare you kids to get a job.

[Music]

You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast,

a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and dads

by building community through meaningful conversation

and storytelling.

And now, here are your hosts, Joel Demott and Andy Lehman.

Joel, you're not in studio with me again.

Oh, Andy, I've had, I've had a day, a day of it, so...

Tell me about it.

I went without last night got dinner with my wife and some friends all seemed well

Look up about 5 a.m. This morning

And then proceeded to puke my guts out

For all for the next few hours, so what I will say is you're looking at a slightly lighter door this evening

Feeling cleansed, super cleansed.

Super cleansed.

Well, I'm glad that you could make it even if you're with us in spirit and in remotely.

Yes, remotely in spirit.

Support comes from Everince Financial, helping members invest in what lasts through financial

services with impact.

More at everince.com/michyanna.

Securities offered through Conquers Financial Group, Securities Incorporated, Member, FINRA,

So, Mike, we want to welcome you to the show.

You are...

I'm going to introduce you real quick.

You are the VP of HR at Everonce.

And so we wanted to have you on because you're fairly new with Everonce, but you have some

good ideas for preparing your kids for your job.

Well, thank you.

I'm thrilled to be here.

I've become a big fan of the Dudes and Dads podcast ever since I first started.

discovered it. So I've enjoyed a number of your episodes and I'm honored to be here.

So thank you.

Great. Great. So tell me a little bit about yourself. We like to do what's called the

dad stats. And so that would be your, like, if you've been married, if you're married,

how long have you been married? If you've got kids, how many kids you have? Things like

that.

I am married. I've been married for 33 years. And I'm just glad I remembered that in case

My wife hears this podcast at some point.

And we have three daughters together.

So our oldest is a nurse and she married a nurse.

They together live in Salt Lake City, Utah.

So we don't see a whole lot of them, but that's where cell phones come in handy.

We enjoy texting and FaceTime occasionally.

Daughter number two just married her husband about three months ago.

So they're in town in Mishawaka.

And then I have my youngest daughter is still a student at Bethel University.

So three girls are now two sons.

and law. So tell me a little bit about how long have you been an HR manager or how long

have you been an HR? That's a great question. Probably round numbers

about 25 years or so. It sounds weird to hear that because I don't think I'm that old, but

I've been at Everonce for 18 months. Okay. So just over a year and a half, but I've been

in and around the area in different places. First source bank, I was in HR there. It was

in management in HR, but I was in the, that's where I first cut my teeth in human resource

management and then spent some time at United Federal Credit Union. And I've jumped around

a little bit was at Bethel University for eight years before coming to Everett. So I've been

around the block a few times, but it's hard to believe all told about 25 years.

Wow.

Oh, yeah.

I, Mike, I wonder if you were to kind of explain an outline on the HR side, and maybe if you've

been in this, if you've been this role in one way or another, as long as you have, what

attracts you to a profession that it seems or a category of profession that it seems

Either people speak of kindly or have HR, like can sometimes be a little bit of a pejorative

term.

But I'm wondering what attracts you to that category of work?

I don't think of myself as a traditional HR guy because you're right.

A lot of times people think about HR as someone who enforces policy and just likes to say

say no a lot. I like to say that HR is not the paper pushing picnic planning policy police

that the personnel department used to be in the past. But it's really, I enjoy helping

people find their niche and helping them succeed. I'm fond of saying things like people are

not made for policies, but policies are made for people. And in most of my world, I look

for the gray where a lot of people look at black and white and don't really see a way

to compromise or do what's right.

In some cases, the best interest of people.

So yeah, I've been told that I might not fit the typical mold of an HR person necessarily,

don't have a finance background, I don't necessarily like to say no if I don't have to.

I like to look for reasons to say yes or to do the right thing.

But yeah, I love the challenge, the variety.

In some ways, I might be a professional matchmaker because I like to put people in the right

places and help them succeed.

Well, one of the things that I've appreciated about you as the VP of HR at Everants especially

is just the lightheartedness, I would say.

There's always joking between you and other staff members.

You guys are always planning something for us to be able to get together as a group of

people, as employees, to kind of feel like we're united.

But I do appreciate that and how it doesn't feel like you're just like, "Oh, somebody,

we have to go to go talk to somebody in HR."

But it's more of like, I feel like you relate to the people more than just what I would

think is traditional HR people.

Well, I appreciate that.

That means a lot.

And that's intentional because I like to think that we spend way too much time at work not

to enjoy what we do, the people we work with.

And so I look for ways to maybe poke fun at coworkers occasionally and just have some

fun, some lighthearted fun, appropriate lighthearted fun.

But yeah, I also enjoy, there's enough seriousness about the job.

I was gonna say, I joke about this, but it wasn't funny that I was welcomed to one company

several years ago where it was kind of a welcome to the team.

Here's a list of people you have to lay off.

Oh, okay.

My, you know, week one was getting to know people by telling them they were no longer

working there.

So that's hard and it's always difficult when you have to let people go or make difficult

decisions.

But yeah, so I really try to celebrate and look for ways to have fun, enjoy what I do

and make sure people are enjoying their time at work.

Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk a little bit about this topic tonight

about how to prepare your kids for going into the job place is because I have a kid, one

One of my oldest child is going to be 18 here in December.

He's a junior in high school, but he's had a couple jobs in high school, but I'm thinking

long term for him.

What are some of the ways that we can prepare?

That's what we're talking about tonight.

What are some of the ways that we can prepare our children to kind of be job ready, if you

will.

So, what are your thoughts on that?

I think that's a great topic.

I'm excited about being able to share some things.

that I'm an expert by any means, but I do a fair amount of recruiting and looking for

people to fill various roles.

And I think as dads especially, this is an important topic because we have an important

role in the development and formation of our kids.

So I guess I would start by saying sometimes it's an age-appropriateness discussion.

But there might be things that we can work with our youngest children about just in terms

of helping find out what they're interested in and where their talents are and help them

develop those a little more.

As kids get older, it might turn into things like helping them develop a work ethic and

explore what they're really passionate about.

Today, it might be helping them improve communication style and prepare for interviewing down the

road at some point.

But there's an awful lot of ways that we can work with our kids even as we, I like the

example of as you go down the road, looking for teachable moments and working with our

children, meeting them where they are and feeding their interest and being able to kind of help

lead them through a variety of things. Quick story, several years ago, my middle daughter

happened to discover that a certain day of the year, I forget which day it was now, but it was

known as National Walk on Stilts Day.

And so I thought, you know, what a great opportunity

for a dad, daughter moment.

So we made a pair of stilts and we painted them together

and kind of had some fun just walking on stilts.

I think we only used them that one time

in my garage ever since, but just a fun way

of celebrating a unique kind of a moment

and learning a few things along the way.

- Definitely.

you had mentioned kind of honing the skills of your children.

What are some of the ways in figuring out what they like?

So what can we do to to help that in that category specifically?

I think as we get to know our kids and understand what they like to talk about

and how they spend their time, it's interesting because

one of my daughters, more than the other, is really talented with paint and drawing.

And I don't know where she got that

because none of the rest of us have anywhere

near that kind of ability.

But it's just giving opportunities to try new things

and to experiment, to sometimes learn from failure

and celebrate that when we can.

I have another daughter who's extremely musical

and can just sit down on a piano and play,

has had some lessons, but has really taken to that

more so than the other two.

And so it's kind of a matter of just sometimes

suggesting a few things, maybe pulling them out

of comfort zones and giving them assignments or putting them in an opportunity where they

might be able to learn something about themselves.

But it can be as simple as just sitting back and having conversation and watch where they

go.

Sure.

And then as parents, I would assume the helping develop them.

So walking them down that way, if it's something that they like to do, kind of exploring, going,

"Okay, let's maybe get you into something like if you like ice skating or trying to

to think you like ice skating, let's get you into like ice skating classes or let's

getting you, let's develop your skills a little bit. And then that may not be somewhere that

in the long run that they end up going with, but kind of trying to develop those skills

and try to figure out what they do, they do like and then obviously some things are going

to rise to the top. You know, for my son, he's, this is something I've seen. I mean,

he's always like to play with his hands and build things and do things like that. But

But he had his first official job this last year over the summer and somebody from our

church had offered him a job in construction building pole barns.

And like he did a great job doing that.

And it was something that he loved doing and is one of those things as a parent.

My wife and I both kind of said, "Hey, let's explore this."

Like, do you think this is something that you'd like to do in the future and kind of

explore that a little more?

I love that example of ice skating for, I take that for example, because we can't all

I'll be Olympic medalist in ice skating,

but if that's where a passion is,

there can be things related to ice skating

that could evolve out of that.

Making a new brand of ice skates

or working with the ice or doing something,

coaching, all kinds of different ways

that that could evolve and develop.

I never knew human resources was a thing

when I was in school.

It just was never on my radar until I stumbled into it,

found it kind of accidentally,

and loved it, never looked back.

And I know there's an awful lot of people who go to school and get degrees and things

that they never end up doing because the real world is changing so fast and they end up

doing something that they love and not something they learned how to do.

And so part of, I guess, coming back to the role of a dad in a child's life and development

is helping them to be lifelong learners and figure out how they can continue to learn and

grow.

your area, you see technology changing so fast and it impacts virtually everything we do.

I can't believe people can make a living playing video game today and doing all kinds of weird

things that I would never have dreamed in the past.

But yeah, that's the world we live in.

Mike, would you think about preparing our kids for the workplace?

So the background that I asked this question out of is there's a lot of...

My wife does a lot of hiring.

I do hiring in my job.

And there's a lot of discussion about the job readiness of the emerging generation that

are entering or have been entering the workforce over the last few years.

And there's kind of an overarching theme.

And I've experienced it and as I've talked with other professionals, I think they would

probably echo this, and I know they have.

Talking with these leaders about the young employees coming into their first professional

experience, the first time that they're working an eight to five kind of situation where there

There are structures and accountabilities in place and there's deliverables and all these

things.

You know, I hear a lot about young people being unprepared to step into that situation

and not necessarily having...

Sometimes you could use the term "the work ethic" for it or like the determination for

that job or having even on the side of like some of the like the relational and soft skills

necessary depending on what the job is as they come in or working with others. I wonder if this

is a discussion in the, I don't know what HR clubs you participate in or if they're, you know,

I assume and I know there are like professional groups that discuss, you know, HR, HR trends,

trends, hiring trends, things like this. Is there a conversation? I know what I'm experiencing,

but I'm wondering if there's a conversation out there in the marketplace about career

readiness, about job readiness for our young people.

No question about it. There's a lot of time and energy and money in fact being spent to

make sure that young people are prepared to enter the workforce. But you know, my take

on it is I think we can take away some of the scariness of what you just described by starting

small and it could be something like giving our children chores to do around the house

and developing the work ethic to follow through on finishing what you start and how to manage

your schedule.

Make sure that we have to leave on time and do some certain things on a given schedule

and help them even managing their money and giving them an allowance perhaps.

So if we can start with when they're young or start small, I think that we're, we wouldn't

bridge the, that chasm quite so, so significantly when they are on a job site and after, after

a report to a manager and you mentioned the eight to five, I think a lot of young people

that scares them because they're not, they were done before.

Right.

And so it could be as simple as a couple of my daughters have worked at fast food places

or babysitting and it's not an eight to five, it's a odd hour job.

But making sure they understand the importance of being people of their word and following

through on commitments and learning new things even if they're not enjoying what they do

so they can add value later.

But yeah, there's no question.

It's a challenge to make sure that people are ready for the real world because that

can be a scary place.

Yeah, like what you said about, you know, having chores for your kids and we've implemented,

I don't know if you guys are familiar with the whole green light card system.

So it's a youth bank account card that they can have, but it's nice because those youth

who have phones can log in right and see all of their stuff, but then you can also have

chores in there.

And so you can assign chores for it and complete them off and then they can kind of directly

see, okay, so if I complete all of my chores, I'm going to have, I'm going to get the total

amount that mom and dad are going to give me. And if I don't complete them all, then I'm

going to be missing some of these. And it's a physical way for them to see what is and

what isn't completed. But then they can also manage their money really well in there as

far as moving things to savings and things like that. So we've implemented that for our

kids. And it's been really good. Because again, like you said, there's going to be, they can

see the effects of not doing their job. I mean, they're obviously not going to get

fired from it. They probably would in a real world situation, but it gives them the responsibility

to be able to complete and have something that they can physically see and prepare them

for the real world.

Yeah. No, I love that. I'm not familiar with that, but I wish I had known about that several

years ago because I think that'd be a great way to help young people learn money management

and accountability and sure, let them fail sometimes.

A lot of parents I think are afraid to let their kids fail,

but failure is a much better teacher than success.

And we can learn a lot of things from just by,

obviously you wanna make sure that's,

it's not a fall off the cliff kind of failure,

but learn how to learn lessons from that,

pick up yourself and dust yourself off and,

okay, try harder next time

or do something different next time.

Maybe it's not a matter of trying harder.

- Yeah, I think especially I've noticed that

as my son is getting older,

I sometimes have a tough time letting him fail, unquote.

And I'm trying to get better at that.

My wife's a good reminder of that to be like,

"Okay, it's okay, he can have consequences

if he doesn't do what he's supposed to be doing."

- So I will say one of the struggles I have is,

I don't wanna say I lecture too much, but I like to talk.

I have things I want to, all this wisdom,

my 25 years of wisdom I want to impart on my children.

And sometimes I need to just listen to them

and sit back and find out what,

wait for them to ask questions before I answer things.

I think they need to know.

And so it's a timing thing,

but along the lines of the failure and learning new things,

I think there's a lot of value in helping kids

with problem solving and critical thinking.

And that can be with the games that we're playing

different situations, help mom and dad plan a family trip. How would we get from here to there?

Just kind of expose them to new and different ideas that could serve them well down the road.

I think so much about, as a parent, how it is hard for us to put our kids in situations where

or failure is an option, you know, where things may not go as they want to.

Andy and I talk a lot about, and we've had discussions, you know, kind of about this

element of grit, you know, developing grit within our kids, developing low determination

and follow through.

And you know, in number one, and first of all, kind of begins with me, like, am I modeling,

my modeling that to them. And then also not bubble wrapping our kids as we send them out into

the workforce or to have those experiences. I was just recollecting someone, what was I think one

of my kids asked me about one of the first jobs that I had. And when I was in seventh grade,

I sold bottled water at the Ship Shawana Flea Market. So those of you that are local to us,

I still know all about the market phenomenon, but man, oh man, that summer, you know, it's 95 degrees out.

You're, I, they give you a little light at the time they gave me like this little,

wasn't even like a lawn chair necessarily, like this little stool thing to sit on.

I, there was an umbrella over me and that block, that block the sun for maybe half the time I was there,

but then there's this all this white gravel all around that like just reflects the rays back up

to you if it's not hitting me from above it back up to and I just remember like that job was like

though I'm just sitting there selling bottled water as a you know what have been a 14 year old

well 13 year old kid something like that um it was it was just unpleasant I just remember having

like the experiences I had with that job were like unpleasant but I did it and I remember

my mom and dad having a conversation with me of saying hey you this is a job I think I

was, you know, it was like, Hey, this is going to be like a 10 week job. You got to do this for

10 weeks. There is a beginning, there is a middle and there is an end, but you're going to finish it.

Yeah. Because I remember having on some of those days that were like just felt like kind of,

I was just baking outside, you know, for extended periods of time. And, you know, that,

that did something. You know, that was an investment. That was an investment in me,

although I'm sure my parents could just as easily said, "Yeah, it's a tough job. You're just selling

bottled water. If you want to go find something else or figure something else in our way to make

money, whatever, go ahead." They could have done that, but they didn't. And I just kind of look

back and say, "I think that was the beginning for me of teaching me something about finishing

stuff about completing stuff. We have a rule here at this house. I know the Lehman household

is similar in this. If you start something, whether it's an extracurricular club or a sport

or whatever it is, you don't have to do it next season, but you will be doing it.

Yeah. Yeah, you will be finishing. So get ready. And also, by the way, also calculate

Calculate what it's going to require for you to go into this thing because know that there isn't an escape door out the back end.

Like when you say yes, you are really saying yes to something.

And I just, I have found that it's a kind of a simple rule. It's a simple policy, but I think all of our kids are pretty well caught onto it.

That if you say you want to do something, you're gonna, you're gonna do it.

Yeah. You know, I love that. And that's, you know, failure. We've talked a little about that. And I guess this is a

a different category, but it's, we can do hard things.

And I think you're right that our children watch us

in many respects to see how we handle setbacks

and disappointment and are we following through

and the commitments that we make because it can be easy

to parents or children are excellent

at pointing out our failures or putting out

our shortcomings as parents because they'll see,

well, you didn't do that.

You know, you say this, but you do some of the gals.

And so that can be a humbling experience to hear from your kids where you've fallen short.

As we prepare our kids for going into the job market, what are some of the skills that

we can specifically teach them that maybe HR managers or people that are hiring are

looking for like interviewing?

What are some good ways that we can talk to them about interviewing?

As far as interviewing itself, I think there's just a lot of good that can come from understanding

how to communicate, how to answer questions thoughtfully and thoroughly without rambling

and going on and on, providing additional details that's not necessary.

As far as looking for qualities in a good employee, I would say things like resourcefulness

and being innovative would be things that we look for, things that I would value.

I've always been told by my dad years ago,

one of the most important things you can do as an employee

is make yourself invaluable.

Learning other things, cross-train,

make sure that you are able to do a number of different things

instead of just the one thing you might be hired to do

because that makes, it's a win-win situation that way.

So there's a lot of things we can do to help give our kids

that spirit of wonder and look at things with fresh eyes

and learn and grow.

Yeah, I like that because you never know going into a job, you maybe hired for one thing.

When I started my job at Ever since I was working in the help desk and then I moved into more

of a systems admin.

It's the same IT department, but still it's a different job than I was originally hired

for.

And so I think being open to what could be, I mean, you may end up liking something a

whole lot different coming down the road.

And so it may be a good place to get involved there.

And I guess I should also mention on the heels of that conversation is it's important for

our kids to learn to be patient and to be thorough because generationally, if we were

going to say things about the generation coming up, a lot of them want to start a job on Monday

and by Tuesday be CEO and they only have to work three or four hours a week.

And so they, it may take time.

It takes going through, learning some lessons and putting in some time.

But, but yeah, that's, that's a good example of someone who can, can learn and grow and

be promote, be recognized and be rewarded for that.

So a lot of success stories come out of just doing a good job, making a good name for yourself.

Mike, if you've, if you were to coach a young person like, hey, you're going to go to a

job interview, here's the things to put, like when you show up to that, to put your best

foot forward and to be a standout candidate.

Because these are things that moms and dads can coach their kids and even work with.

Like I've thought about, you know, my eldest is going to be 14 here, so we're just a few

years out from probably his first, maybe his first job.

kind of establishing the categories and the things that a person, when they show up for

a job interview that are going to really stick out to a person who's hiring, what would

be those points for you?

Yeah, the great question.

I'm going to start with something very basic, but often overlooked, and that's something

as simple as make sure you're on time.

Make sure that you know where you're going and arrive early and show interest.

Look the part.

A lot of people take interviewing,

take any kind of appearance for granted

and don't take the time to dress up

and maybe iron a shirt or put on a tie.

Even if you're not gonna have to wear a tie

when you get the job.

Look your best when you're interviewing

and make sure that you're making a good name for yourself

so you can stand out among your peers.

It's important to spend some time on a resume too.

I can't tell you how many times

I've had a good interview with somebody

and look at the resume and it's full of typos

and it's sloppily put together,

even if a young person doesn't have a lot of job experience,

you can still do a nice job of laying out who you are

and what you're interested in

and what your skills might be, and don't misspell things.

I can't imagine with all the tools we have today

with word and spell check,

people still misspell words on resumes,

but it happens all the time.

And then obviously,

manners are important following up after a job interview

with a thank you that goes a long way

and just making sure that you convince whoever is hiring you that you are

going to do the things that we've talked about already. You're going to follow

through, you're going to be thorough, you'll do a good job because that's that

is half the battle. Sure. Well, and I think too, I mean especially we're like

we're talking about youth here, you nailed it on the head there. You may not

have a whole lot of work experience. So you need to especially stand out in

in other ways because yeah, they can't look and say, oh, you know, whatever John Smith

has got all this, this work history, but you know, John showed up, he was on time, he was

dressed nicely, his resume made sense. And because I mean, I've even sat through some

some interviews where I'm listening and I look at the interview or the resume and the

resume doesn't even make sense. Like something's on there that you're like, doesn't make sense.

And so, yeah, those are good ways to, even though you don't have history necessarily,

but prove your worth in other ways.

Yeah.

Well, as we've been talking, if you're selling water at Ship Shawana or whatever job that

you've had, there are things you can learn from that.

There are lessons you can talk about, given a situation of, "Tell me how you would handle

the situation and it might be a good practice to work with our children to even ask them

kind of interview questions in the backyard as you're doing other things and just say,

how would you answer this question?

What would you think about that?

One of my first jobs, Joel, I'll just mention was detastling corn when I was a...

Oh, yes, yes.

Too young to know.

A local favorite.

Yeah.

And that's a grueling way to spend a summer, but a lot of good work ethic comes out of

that and that was my first real paycheck and that's a lot of fun to be able to see.

I earned this.

I did it the hard way.

Yeah.

But Jack and I were just this summer, we had the kids with us in the car.

We're driving by a field and there were D.Taslers out and I'm sure we sounded like those people,

but Jack, he's like, that's what a job my wife did as a young person.

And she's like, you had to wake up like she's saying, she's like, I had to wake up at this

amount of time and we were out in the field for this long and you got all these cuts all over your

hand and oh yeah and yeah and and looking at my kids looking at her like like totally totally

confused as to why she would select a job like that. I didn't even have to do that and it's like

well because there were just a few options available to us and that was one that paid the best so

that's right that's what we did but um you know as we're as we're thinking about um

I'm wondering how to ask this question in the right way, Mike, so that you can give

me an answer that's kind of dialed in.

What when something goes wrong in a person's employment?

When there is an issue, because I know probably in the past, in my work experiences, I know

I have been the issue before in my earlier work days.

When there is an issue with either job performance or with the questioning about whether it's

the right fit for the job or things like this. The language I think the language I use is

that sometimes people go on a performance improvement plan. And that, I'm wondering about

your thoughts and your approach toward, is it possible for someone who is struggling in their

job who maybe feels or something is a mismatch, is it possible to turn that around? Is that

possible for the person to gain a new perspective? Or is it just best that we help release them

in as best a way possible into the workforce somewhere else? How have you thought about that?

How have you approached that professionally?

Wow, that's a great question. And I have thought about that an awful lot because

I am convinced that everybody wants to be successful. Nobody wants to struggle. And

oftentimes people will self-select out if they're in a situation that sometimes jobs just

outgrow them as companies evolve and change and they just can't keep up and they need to recognize

is that it can be hard to walk away from something

that you know that you're comfortable with,

something you've done for a number of years.

But I think we owe it to people to be honest with them

and let them know this is the expectation

and here's where you are if you're not measuring up.

There's no question.

I think people, if it's a matter of attitude

or job performance, they can, given the right motivation,

the right circumstances, the right tools,

I've seen people turn that around

and I love when that happens,

people can take that seriously and really dig in

and do some things to turn it around.

They've got a want to and you can't force it.

So if people don't recognize a need,

if we're not honest with them about the need,

or if it truly is outside of their desire,

then sometimes you do have to have those conversations

and say, "We want you to be successful.

"I know you want to succeed.

"This just isn't working out for you."

And I've had, unfortunately, I've had those conversations

on a number of occasions where people have had to leave

not necessarily voluntarily, but fast forward six months

or a year and they're much happier

because they find something they enjoy

and they can do well.

And oftentimes they'll look back at that as a learning

opportunity and a growing opportunity for them,

even though in the moment it's hard.

And I look at a job loss similar to a death in the family.

family and you go through that grieving process and there's anger and there's denial and

it's the whole range of emotions. But ultimately you get to accept that and you learn from

it and you walk away stronger and better as a result.

Yeah, I think, I mean, your job kind of becomes part of who you are. And so that loss is, I

mean, it's a loss and that's what grief is, is just a loss of anything. It could be death,

it could be a job, it could be anything. Yeah, I think that's actually a good thing to even

prepare our children for too is say, okay, there may be a time in your job history that

the severance of the employment is not due to your choice, but your employer's choice.

And you'll move on. I mean, you'll make it, you'll move on. So that would be another good

thing, I think, to talk about or talk with our kids about.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's not necessarily a reflection on their character, who they are. So they

that's the other thing I know. And I know I felt this way probably in my younger years when

a job was... It was not turning out how I thought it was. The job was not as it was either advertised

or it felt like it took a twist and it was kind of like, "Yeah, I'm not a fit for this."

Then the next question is, "Okay, am I just a massive failure in life that I'm not able to fit

with us or not able to change something about myself to make this job work.

It's funny now, I joke now as someone who leads an organization. I'm always just amazed at the

massive, the variety of personality types and skill sets within the job force and how I absolutely,

I need, I probably need my certified public accountant to be a different kind of person

than my marketing manager.

Absolutely.

Right.

Right.

And that's okay.

And maybe somebody thought, "Hey, I'm going to be a certified public accountant."

And they got in pretty deep into that.

I don't know what the statistic now, and Mike, maybe you know this.

I don't know, it used to be that 80% of people were not in the area of their degree.

And there, and there's, if they had gone to college for something, right, a vast majority of people,

and they can feel like an, an educational system, it's like, oh, I'm on this track, you know, I went to be an engineer

or I went to be this, this thing and I've got to do that.

And then they get into the work and they realize like, Nope, not, not a good, not a good fit.

I just wondered how we help people navigate that and how we help them understand.

It doesn't always have to be this big personal or existential crisis, but rather...

Because I feel like from your perspective, Mike, that's really what you're aiming to do, right?

Is to align people in a way where they're going to be a better employee on the backside than they

they were on the front from a learning experience and from some coaching and things like that.

Yeah, you said an awful lot right there. I don't know what the exact number is of how

many people are working in fields outside of their degrees, but I know it's huge. And it's

fascinating because that's been the case for a long time. And you'd think we'd figure out a

better way of preparing people for what they're doing than we've done. But at the end of the day,

I think there's an important lesson for us to teach our kids and that is their identity and their

self-worth is so much bigger than what they do and how they spend their time or how they make a living.

And so yeah, that can change. You might have more than one job for a season or you might lose a

job that you think you're going to love and that's okay because that doesn't define you. It doesn't

make you who you are and you talked about the CFO and your marketing person being different.

They're wired differently.

Not only is that the case, but there's a difference based on the size of the organization.

You start small and you're a family-owned company.

You might have one person who wears five or six different hats.

One of them is CFO and also operations and marketing on the side and whatever.

But as you grow and expand and get more complex, you need people to specialize.

And so people, I mentioned earlier, sometimes jobs just outgrow people and that happens

too which is no knock on individuals.

But if they're lifelong learners, if they're growing, hopefully they'll find one of those

niches they can really celebrate and where they can excel.

But if not, sometimes it's just time to move on because the company is changing and you

don't want to change and that's okay too.

Yeah.

These are all really good things to help us prepare our children.

I really, really appreciated that.

Are there any other things that we may have missed

that you can think of to help us prepare our kids?

- You know, the only other things I can think of would be

making sure they understand the value of relationships

and networking.

I think our kids spend a lot of time online,

but they don't necessarily develop good interactions

or relationships with people

and have conversations with adults.

I think that can go a long way.

We've mentioned lifelong learners and just instilling in them a love to learn.

I think one of the most important things that we need to teach our kids is to be

huge fans and followers of the Dudes and Dads podcast.

No, listen to you.

Really, go listen to you.

That's critical.

Yes, yes.

So with that though, that brings us up to...

Now it's time for Dudes and Dads Pop Quiz.

Thank you, and James.

Oh, no.

So the dudes and dads pop quiz is just a time that we ask Mike random questions that he

cannot prepare for that have nothing to do with HR.

My favorite part of the show.

So, Joel, maybe, maybe Mike can adopt these questions into HR, you know, for the future

of some sort of HR.

So we have these, I don't know, these pod decks that are just random questions.

You should get some of these and put them on your desk.

So you can just like as an interview, ask questions that are random, not anything to

do with the job.

I'll keep it holed up and say, pick a card.

Yeah.

Perfect.

And then answer the question.

Put it in the house here, right?

In no way will that make the interview even more stressful.

Good point.

Totally open.

It would show people, it would show me how they might answer different questions and

creativity maybe or.

All right.

So Joel, do you want to ask the first one?

Yes, I will. Okay. And this is a traditional question, but it says a lot. Mike, you're

stranded out in Desert Island. You're able to have three things with you. What are those

three things?

Can I ask qualifying questions or do I have to just answer them?

We already can find out what kind of person Mike is. Just a question. Yes, go ahead. Yes,

I'll answer the question.

Obviously, a cell phone is pretty important, but I don't know if I have a way of charging

Is it how what's the desert island resources here?

Yeah, you're Mike, here's the deal.

This desert island is probably going to be the less desert island you're ever on.

And OK, all right.

The three things that you have are going to be like how to usher you into eternity.

That's what's going to happen.

So what? Thank you. All right.

Hopefully that clarifies it enough.

Well, great. So so in that case, I'm a desert island.

I get three things. Yep.

So a genie in a bottle would be one of the,

I'd like to have one of those.

I'd like to have a boat, preferably a yacht,

so I can at least circle around the island,

if not make it off the island.

And then probably something like,

I guess I should be practical and say either a flint

or a fishing pole or something just so that

if I'm gonna have to stick around for a while,

I can at least sustain myself.

- Those are good well thought answers.

Like I like that.

No one has ever answered that way ever.

I don't think no one's asked the qualifying like questions on that either.

To spoken to a true HR professional, he's really just wants to make sure

that we're in the right categories. Yeah.

That's right. Well done.

So, Mike, what would you consider your greatest achievement?

Well, obviously making on the dudes and dads podcast is has got to be up there.

pretty high. You know, greatest achievement. Wow. I could go with a traditional answer

and say something about being a father or reaching a milestone with my marriage. Work-wise,

I would say that the one time when I really pushed myself several years ago, I put myself

in a situation where I had to come up with a solution for a problem. We didn't know

have the money to spend on a, actually I ended up being a computer program. And so I found

access classes and took three or four increasing level classes and access and built a program

that we used for several years. And it was kind of a fun way for me to grow and learn

I'm not a computer guy by any means, but I was able to develop something that had some

usefulness and saved us a lot of money. And after I left, they spent the money and bought

something much better.

That's how it goes.

Yes.

Yeah, but I really enjoyed that.

Okay.

My next question is, um, oh, did I just blank on it?

I had it.

Oh gosh.

Uh, uh, you.

Oh, yes.

I remember.

Mike, what book, what book should we be reading right now?

There are a lot of good books, business related, HR related.

Patrick Lencioni has written some good ones.

Things like, you know, Death by Meeting, Come to Mind.

I love Monday Morning Leadership, if you're familiar with that.

David Kattrell, I think is the author.

Easy Read, small book, but great practical wisdom in that book.

So that would probably be the one I'd recommend above.

a number of them. But yeah, that would be, I guess, a bigger fan of authors and individual

books because someone who knows what they're talking about. Yeah, I want to give as many

things that they've written as possible.

Sure. That's good.

And of course, the Bible.

Yeah.

Let's not forget.

There we go.

There we go. And Patrick Lenshione would tell you the same thing. So you're a good company.

Yeah.

All right. So maybe this ties back to Joel's question about the island. But what band

or artist dead or alive, would you have play at your funeral?

So because you're on the desert island, then you might not make it out

what band would play.

I'm not sure how they're going to get there because it's the desert island

and you're alone, but if you could have a band.

No, that's that's good.

I might my all three of my daughters would probably want me to say Taylor Swift.

You know, honestly, Rich Mullins is one of my favorite of all time.

And I you said dead alive.

So I have to come back and do that for me.

But I love even now listening to songs he wrote and I had a unique opportunity

of spending time at summer camp with him in Michigan and just learning from him

and spending time with him.

Great guy.

So yeah, he'd no question.

He'd be the guy who would play at my funeral.

Yeah.

Rich, Rich Mullins, y'all, for those of you young people, you just Google it.

A say a sage, a sage for the ages that I think more people.

I know some of my friends have a deep have a deep respect for

no longer with us, but nevertheless, contributed a lot.

So that's, yeah, that's a good that's a good one.

My final question. Yeah.

Goes something like this.

I like this question.

And I go to it a lot because I think it's it's it's it's pointy.

It, Mike, in a zombie apocalypse scenario,

Who among your family is the last to die?

That's, this really is like an analysis about skill sets and survivability.

Who do you think ends up on top?

In the zombie apocalypse, I guess I'm going to say my mother-in-law would likely, she's pretty

resourceful and she has had a number of different events in her life which have made her stronger

and resilient. And so I would all stand right behind her when the time comes and let her lead the way.

And yeah, I think she would be likely the last to go.

Andy, I don't know if we can check the history of the Dudes and Dads podcast pop quiz, but

I believe this is the first time that anyone has invoked the skill set of their mother-in-law.

I think that is true.

I'm speechless. Just don't read all kinds of records.

But boy, oh boy, wherever the mother-in-law is,

I hope she hears this.

- I was just gonna say, I hope she, yeah,

I'll get extra brownie points if I can make sure

that she hears that I spoke of her in such a kind way.

Because she knows I've spoken about her

in less kind ways in the past.

- All right, Mike, my last question is,

what would be your best day ever?

- Well, outside from living it here with you two.

- Wow.

You know, I put me on an island, give me that yacht,

or if not that, I honestly love to be outside,

Smoky Mountains, walking through the trails

in the Great Smoky Mountains area,

give me a chance to just explore nature

and come upon a waterfall and spend time outdoors.

Would that be a great way to spend some time?

- Well, you've done it, you've successfully

passed the pop quiz.

So well done.

Well done.

$20.

Yes, yes.

And we want to thank you for being on the show today.

We really appreciate your knowledge and your wisdom that you're bringing to help those

of us who are parenting kids that are getting closer to that age of bringing kids into the

job market.

So thanks for being on the show with us tonight.

Yeah.

And if we'll find a way, if you ever want to connect with Mike and figure out how to

help your kid be just a better employee, we'll make him embarrassingly easy to find

through some sort of special.

I'm assuming Mike's on LinkedIn, right?

He's got a bad. Absolutely.

Addable.

I'll LinkedIn, TicTac, all the.

He's a TicTac.

Pulling tracks.

Pull down.

Hey, everybody, you can always head over to the Dudes and Dads Podcast

dot com for all the show notes and delightful information

that we'd like to share with you.

So be sure to head on over there and check it out.

Also, if you've got any feedback for us, Dudes and Dads podcast at Gmail

dot com for all of your helpful criticisms,

encouragements or harsh rebukes, whichever we'll take, we'll take all.

All right.

Grace and peace guys.

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