Clarifying Personal Values with Dr Richard MacKinnon

Richard Series - Clarity of Values

[00:00:06] Richard: Because it can get a little bit complicated. I might look at someone else and think I know what their values are, but I don't. I only know what their behavior is.

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[00:00:38] I don't have to see our other people being consistent. It's just, am I doing my bit? Am I staying in my lane and focusing on my behavior? Because that's, that's what I've got control over. I can't control yours. I can't control hers.

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[00:01:04] the ingredients we're bringing to People Soup in this episode are personal values and our exploration is thorough and deep. It's like everything you wanted to know about personal values but were afraid to ask.

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[00:01:24] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Peasoopers, thanks for tuning in. We love it that you're part of our community. So let's crack on.

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[00:02:02] So what are we going to cover in this episode? Well, we're going to look at the importance of values in being the kind of person we want to be and how those values relate to the other skills in the ACT model. So Richard, maybe if we just help position people, how does this relate to our last episode?

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[00:02:39] Um, but if we're not going to rely on random volatile thoughts and emotions to guide our behavior, what could we use instead? And that's the link I'd like to make that if we're practicing diffusion, we can kind of fill that gap to fuel our decision making with our values. But we need to know what they are.

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[00:03:00] Ross: Lovely. So let's have a go at explaining what do we mean by values? Because I think it's a word that's bandied around quite a lot in the workplace. And we are specifically talking about personal values, our own values. let me have a go at starting this one off, Richard. I think they're qualities of behavior that we want to bring to life and sort of be known for. They're, they're, they're what we want to do, not how we want to feel. I think that's really important. What else would you say values are, personal values, Richard?

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[00:03:56] It's more a case of a guiding principle that we're [00:04:00] going to have with us. Forever, and that can sometimes shed a little light on it because it's a concept you can't pick up your values. You can't point at them in front of you. So how do we understand what they are? They're anything but they're not goals and they're flexible so they're not rules to follow

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[00:04:27] Richard: Yes more than sometimes Um, and actually the workplace can be problematic for that because a lot of our action a lot of our focus might be You A function of the goals that we have been set, but it can easily spill over into, I'm pointing out the window now, into the outside world where, um, success and achievement of things can be really highly valued in society.

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[00:05:21] And that can be a real challenge. It takes us away from now and it sort of says, when I get there, I'll have X, I'll feel Y, I'll be whatever, rather than in this moment. How would I like to be? And how would I like that to guide my behavior? And I think, you know, goals aren't intrinsically bad. Definitely not saying that.

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[00:06:00] Ross: I absolutely agree. And I think goals can imply a deficit. We're missing something. We're trying to achieve something that we currently don't have. Whereas personal values. We're not missing anything. We can try them on right now. We can develop a, almost a playful, experimental approach with our values, to explore which ones really resonate with us.

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[00:06:31] Richard: There's an insight.

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[00:07:02] And we can then use that, that value as a guide for our behavior.

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[00:07:30] It could have been something like fun, adventure, it could have been education, it could have been just trying new things, and now you're 45, you're 50, you're 55, what's really important to you now? It's not that you don't care about fun, but maybe your focus is on things like stability, or legacy, or connection.

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[00:08:10] It's more a case of I'm paying more attention to them at this stage in my life. And, um, that, that can take some pressure off us as well when we understand that it is a journey. It's not a qualification. It's not an achievement. It's what are we paying attention to? And, and really, this is the really important point.

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[00:08:56] And sharing those kinds of examples helps people understand, Oh, that's what you mean by values. It's not a mission for my life. It's not a rule I must follow. It's if I was clear on what was important to me, I could do a little bit more of that in the everyday. Does that make sense?

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[00:09:41] How we show up when the going gets tough. How we respond in the numerous different scenarios you face every day in the workplace. And it enables you to bring that consistency to how you're showing up.

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[00:10:21] Individual. So there's two really good ways we can bring our values to life.

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[00:10:51] But it's who we want to be, or it's how we want to be.

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[00:11:29] Um,

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[00:11:51] And that's, we can combine that present moment awareness with an awareness of our values. To navigate it. If we're not paying attention to now, we'll miss out on valuable [00:12:00] opportunities to bring those values to life because we weren't listening to the person in the meeting, or we weren't paying attention to the people sitting around us in the office, or we didn't even spot our neighbor when we were walking down the street.

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[00:12:17] Ross: So Richard, why would we want to explore our values and work out how to align our behavior with them? What are the goodies that are in this for us?

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[00:13:10] So we're not guaranteeing anything with our values. And that's why that important difference exists between doing and feeling. In other words, applying your values could be uncomfortable. Applying your values could be awkward. Bringing them to life may not spark joy, but it brings meaning and purpose. And what research has shown Over a few decades now is that the more we're able to bring our values to life, the more sense of coherence we have, but the, the boost it provides to our wellbeing, it's just good for us to do it.

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[00:13:47] and that's the fundamental level, but it's also, it's good for those around us. We, we can contribute to the strength of our relationships by being a consistent and thoughtful and values led person. and it [00:14:00] also means that we're less likely to engage in those unhelpful behaviors in the workplace, like avoidance of things, like maybe using our emotions.

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[00:14:44] Ross: Uh, And I love the way you started off with saying it's about action, because otherwise these could just be notional words. Notional words. Oh, this is who I am. Unless we're really finding ways to express those values in our behavior, then it's not that meaningful. I think when we're moving towards a value that has meaning for us, we can get glimpses or glimmers of that purpose and meaning.

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[00:15:24] Richard: So

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[00:15:39] Lovely.

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[00:16:05] And it helps us just focus on, is this worthwhile? Does this matter? So if people shy away from the word values, I'm fine with that. We don't have to use the V word at all. But what we're trying to do is figure out what really matters to you in life. What words would you use to describe that stuff? And then it's like, oh, OK, now I don't have to talk about something.

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[00:16:51] And I think if we go back to our psychological inflexibility theme, that's where a lot of us find ourselves. I know what's important. I know what matters. I just don't do it. And that feels awful. You know, it feels like we're letting ourselves down, or we've engaged in a behavior that we regret, and then we have to sort of make up for that, apologize, or do over, or we've made more problems for ourselves.

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[00:17:30] Ross: that, that description. From words on a post it note to how we behave. How can we be seen behaving? It's so important. that cynicism with the V word, the values, can come from organizational values. Lots of organizations have values. People may become a bit despondent about that curled up poster on the wall that's quite faded.

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[00:18:17] Richard: Absolutely. Taking that space, taking that time to figure that out for yourself, to know what it is that matters to you is an incredibly important first step. Otherwise, we're kind of buffeted by events, or we might at a personal level fall into a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, which is what are they doing?

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[00:19:00] They might use different words to describe their values. They might not be bringing their values to life in the way that I would, and unless they sit me down and take me through a list and say, this is what matters to me in life, I'll never know. And so it can be a real distractor. Instead focusing on my values and me bringing them to life, I then don't have to expect them of other people.

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[00:19:36] Ross: such an important point, that comparisonitis, that we might see other people and we think, oh, I'm going to try that on. We're not that person, we're not in their context

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[00:19:47] Ross: of their life experience. I consider it to be quite a courageous act, that sort of pausing and thinking, what really does matter to me?

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[00:20:05] Richard: think there's a principle. I would flag right now, which is to give people space. I would often make the point with a group that the worst possible thing I could do to someone is to sit them down and give them a piece of paper and say, write down your values. Now, you know, a blank sheet, because, well, we don't, I haven't thought about it.

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[00:20:43] One of the ways that I do it with some coaching clients, depending on who they are, is to work back from a point in the future, and maybe three years, five years, and imagine themselves, because so much of the work that I do is about people at work. So imagine yourself in your ideal job. Let's, let's talk about that entire day.

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[00:21:32] Thank you. So it could be the little things. An example could be someone saying, well, actually, my perfect day starts with a short walk to work. I don't want to commute in my life, because what's really important to me is I can spend as much time with the family in the morning and the evening as possible.

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[00:22:10] Okay. We've sort of distilled another thing. What we haven't focused on is your job title, your salary, the name of the company you'll be working for. That's not as relevant as if all of the stars were aligned and you were doing all this stuff. If you could have it all, what name would you give it? And many, not everyone, but many people find that quite an interesting, creative thing to do, but it does, it does take time.

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[00:23:05] Getting people to sort them into, typically I'd say three piles. And I'd set some parameters, I'd say there's pile one is, they really resonate with you. They ignite you. There's some sort of gut instinct reaction to that word. Then there's a pile in the middle that's Got some heat, but less heat than that pile one.

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[00:23:50] This is us getting more accustomed to thinking and considering values. So I'd say I'm not that interested in the good [00:24:00] girls and the good boys in the room. So if, if you think I must put that on pile one, not that interested, I'd really invite you to try and go with that gut instinct. cause your mind will want to get involved going, oh my goodness, you can't put generosity on the uh, pile.

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[00:24:21] Ross: What if Richard sees me do that and he makes a judgment about me? So, getting people to do that, and some people will say, How many do I need in each pile? I say, I don't know, no rules here. Or, are you talking about how I want to be or how I think I am? And I'll typically say, Yes. Probably really annoying. But it's just that liberating people to just really dig a bit deeper. And I'll say you can keep these cards. If you want to cross out the definition and put your own definition on to your point, then do that. Make these as useful as possible for you. It's a fascinating exercise watching people, watching people who are kind of wanting to get it right, really agonizing over which piles to put them in.

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[00:25:25] Richard: The tangible nature of that I've found is really useful. Yeah, I totally agree. And if I have the opportunity with a group in the room to use cards, it's a very different experience to just. Let me have a think. What I also observe is people going, I wonder what their values are. What are they selecting?

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[00:26:02] It's not something you want lots of in your life. And it doesn't mean you devalue it in other people, because that's where this gets a little bit more complicated, which is being flexible about others values. Their values could either be identical to yours. But their behavior is really different. Or their values could be very different and you see behavior that's very similar to yours.

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[00:26:54] Ross: Great question. So, typically, I would say to people who've done that three piles, I'd say, who's got lots in that first pile? And typically lots of people have got like 20 or 10. And I say, right, that's a lot to carry around in our heads, thinking, right, now I'm going to bring to life this value of industry.

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[00:27:40] And I think that can be quite revealing, and people are, often report back being a bit surprised by the ones that have leapt out at them. And again, I'd invite them to go away and sit with them. Sit with them and think, how could I bring these to life in my behaviour? Say I'm seeing them again in a [00:28:00] week, Or look back on the last few days. Are there ways that I've brought this to life? Small ways. I'd always say, remember, think small.

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[00:28:38] So I love that. Keep it small, keep it doable, which is making the link between the two, rather than set this big, scary goal for the future or make this huge life decision. Because if values are, again, another analogy, or is it metaphor? Listeners, you tell me, um, the inner compass, you know, values give us a sense of direction.

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[00:29:38] Ross: reminds me, I once said that to a group, when do you use a compass? And the resounding response was never. And I was like, oh, shucks.

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[00:30:12] You know, if your holiday consists of a tour of Western Europe, well then you have a sense of direction to get from city to city and then your values, but the cities you want to go to, they're the goals I've been there to, I've achieved that goal, but it doesn't mean that my goal is heading East. Or heading west or heading north, it doesn't really make much sense.

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[00:30:52] Ross: The more steps we take in that direction, the more we're experimenting with expressing that value in different ways and consolidating as a really memorable guide to our behavior. That beacon is really shining brighter each time we step nearer to it. So how do, how do you bring to life, This concept in your own work, into your own practice, Richard.

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[00:31:44] Alright, to an unhelpful degree. If you can get the clear blue water between goals and values, then you can think, oh I could be, let me put it this way, in the absence of goals, it's very easy to say, well I'm not good. But if I have [00:32:00] goals and I'm working really hard, then I'm good. But actually you can put that to one side and say, Oh, I'm good anyway.

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[00:32:32] How could I be more like me today? Rather than when I finished this course in six months, I'll be an even better practitioner. And that was a very real thing for me. So when I am making decisions. About what I'm going to do at work as in what do I want this year to look like it's straight to the values because I've said to myself, these are important and actually going back to my notebook, going back to my digital notes and saying, no, I am committed to this.

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[00:33:24] Again,

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[00:33:29] Ross: Ah, Richard, it's, it's super powerful, thank you. It really is. resonates with me, really brings to life the concept of values and it's really relatable too. I think one of my values for this year has been, or is, connection. I realised, sort of, having moved to a new country, Uh, two years ago, over two years ago now, and cracking on with work and really getting my head down with work, I really felt [00:34:00] like I was losing contact with people, people who were important to me, people who were close to me, and I felt like everything was drifting. So this year, well before this year actually, towards the end of last year, I started to make a conscious effort to nurture those connections and realize the importance of them for my well being and also for the joy of connecting. It's, it's, it's one of the reasons that you and me are doing this project together from my perspective.

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[00:34:31] Ross: It's this joy of connecting with you and bouncing ideas off you and just experimenting with different ways to express that through, through various connections and collaborations. And it's, it's not always easy. And it's filling me with that sense of That glimmer of, yeah, come on Ross, this is really important. And what I'll tend to do is write them down. My values I'll write them down. And if I'm doing a big presentation or if I'm dealing with a coaching client. that perhaps I feel a little disconnection with, or feel like that the coaching may have gone adrift, then I will put the values that I want to bring to that coaching session behind my laptop, on my old music stand I tend to use.

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[00:36:00] Richard: That's such a practical kind of use of that. And you've also referenced a really, Important use of our values, which is helping us persist through something less than palatable, you know, the things that are necessary, but maybe unpleasant or necessary, but ambiguous and a little bit scary. So if, if we only ever did stuff that was guaranteed to be successful, then we probably wouldn't grow or advanced and it could be in the moment in a coaching conversation, like you've said, or it could be.

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[00:36:52] Not at some point when it's easier.

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[00:36:56] Richard: So early dates for people, it's therefore really useful. To have those values represented visually somehow in a tactile way. It makes all the difference. We're visual creatures. So little reminders in our environment can be very, very helpful. Otherwise they can easily get lost in. All the things I need to do today.

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[00:37:54] Richard: Oh, yeah. Because how often do you look at your phone?

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[00:38:17] Richard: and and you've, you've uncovered something else that is another benefit, I would argue, of having clarity over your values. Which is, you can then express them verbally to other people in a coherent way. You can then, and again, you don't have to use the V word, um, you can say, this is what matters to me.

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[00:39:02] Then they know so much more about you. And there's a good chance they'll tell you what's important to them. And now you're connecting on a totally different level. And that's why for many, many of the team development activities I do, I try to incorporate values as an idea. Or at least make the point that values are different to goals.

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[00:39:40] Ross: Absolutely. So there's been some tips already along the way, but how would we suggest people make a start with this skill?

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[00:40:09] Have a look at your calendar for the last week. What were you doing with your time? That can give you an indication as to what you think is important and what matters. And if it's not there, how can you make that appear on your calendar in the future? If you were going to schedule being a certain way, what would be on your calendar?

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[00:40:50] There's no pass fail with this, is there? There's no perfection, but it's starting to identify the words that you think. If I was a bit more of that, if I was doing more of that, that would be great. Great.

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[00:41:26] So there are people there from, from throughout your career, and some people who've really had an impact on you. And people stand up and talk about what it was like to work with you, how you were in the workplace. And just have a think about what you'd really love to hear them say. Who you were, what it was like to work with you.

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[00:42:20] Richard: But it comes back to your earlier point about I do it now versus Oh, I wish I was like that. We can have aspirational values and now we know what we want so we can start to do it. We don't have to be doing it now. And in fact, if you notice the discomfort of, Oh, I'm not like that. But I wish I were then that shows you it's important to you that internal ick that, Oh, I've really drifted from being the kind of person I wanted to be.

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[00:43:09] It's the small things in the value direction that make all the difference. It's it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Um, and, and I think that's one of the ways that people can really get into putting act into practice. becoming more psychologically flexible because they're paying attention to something different, which is the direction of travel.

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[00:43:52] It was small, but meaningful. And now I want to do more.

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[00:44:05] Richard: Absolutely.

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[00:44:24] you'll find all the details for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

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[00:44:48] And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

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[00:44:57] Ross: And it's like trying on a new pair of shoes, or maybe a new cloak. I don't know why I chose cloak, but

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