Today, we're jumping into the world of play and its crucial role in helping both neurodiverse and neurotypical kids learn & thrive. We'll kick off by emphasizing that play isn’t just a fun pastime; it’s a powerful tool for learning, behaviour development, emotional regulation and communication.

Throughout our chat, you’ll hear some real talk about the difference between child-led and adult-directed play, and why following a kiddo's lead can unlock their potential in ways structured activities just can’t. Using our experiences as mothers and clinicians, we'll share practical tips and strategies that make playtime a learning opportunity, packed with joy and connection.

By the end of this episode, you'll feel empowered to create playful learning opportunities that will make a lasting impact on your children’s development. So, grab your favorite toy, and let’s get into how we can turn play into a bridge for communication!

Timestamps:

(01:25) - Welcome

(01:59) - Episode Learning Objectives

(05:05) - Have Fun & Be Silly

(06:09) - "Play is anything that sparks joy"

(18:30) - Identifying Joyful Moments

(26:30) - Understanding Adult Directed vs Child Led Play

(36:57) - Understanding Social Reciprocity in Communication

(44:20) - Understanding Verbal Behaviour Development Theory

(50:34) - The Importance of Context in Learning

(59:33) - Special Guests!

Articles Mentioned In This Episode:

• Tamara Kasper (SLP + BCBA)
• Akhbari Ziegler, S., & Hadders-Algra, M. (2020). "Coaching approaches in early intervention and paediatric rehabilitation." Developmental Medicine & Child Neurology. DOI: 10.1111/dmcn.14493.
• Elbeltagi, R., Al-Beltagi, M., Saeed, N. K., & Alhawamdeh, R. (2023). "Play therapy in children with autism: Its role, implications, and limitations." World Journal of Clinical Pediatrics, 12(1), 1-22. DOI: 10.5409/wjcp.v12.i1.1.
• Greer, R. Douglas, Jessica Dudek, and Hung Chang. "Observation, Language Learning, and Development: The Verbal Behavior Development Theory." The Psychological Record (2024). DOI: 10.1007/s40732-024-00585-1.

****

Visit The Sensory Supply for the best in sensory products to soothe, stimulate, and inspire.

Learn about our clinic Elemenoe where we work to reach milestones together through speech, language, behaviour & learning.

Visit neurodiversallyspeaking.com for all podcast & show info:

Follow us:

• Instagram
• Facebook
• X
• YouTube
• TikTok

Contact:

Have a question or a topic that you'd love to hear on the show? Get in touch with us at hello@neurodiversallyspeaking.com

Hi, I'm Brittany.

Hi, I'm Shawna.

And we're here on the podcast Happy Birthday. What? Can you hear me?

Yes. Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

And we're your hosts at neurodiversely Speaking.

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior. Behavior.

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Neurodiversity Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shauna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversitySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at helloeurodiversityspeaking.com Neurodiversity Speaking starts now. Hey everyone. Welcome back to Neurodiversely Speaking, where we explore communication, behavior and neurodiversity with curiosity and heart.

I'm Brittany, a speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shauna, behavior analyst. Today we're talking about something that we're both so, so passionate about and believe in. That connection and joy are just part of the process.

They are the process when it comes to supporting language development and communication skills.

Yeah, we're calling this episode Joy first, rethinking language development through connection and play. We're going to talking all about play today and so your learning objectives for this play episode.

By the end of the episode, you'll be able to, number one, describe the role of social connection in langu language acquisition for neurodiverse populations. Number two, differentiate between child led and adult directed play.

Explain how child led intrinsically motivating activities align with evidence based naturalistic developmental behavior interventions. Number three is summarize neurodevelop. Sorry, serial.

Summarize neurodevelopmental benefits of play based interventions including their influence on joint attention, symbolic play and executive functioning consistent with the principles of neurodiversity function, affirming care.

And number four is demonstrate understanding of strategies to embed communication Opportunities within shared routines based on your client's preferences and interests in line with client centered function based interventions. I just want to pause and say that sounds like such a muscle.

So if you're a parent or a different type of professional listening to this episode, I promise we're going to break all of these down in really bite sized pieces and language that's easier to understand. And then what I just said, As.

I said, we are super passionate about this topic and something that we are talking a lot about every single day because we really believe that that ability to develop language through play is especially important for neurodiverse learners because of those social communication differences, such as a reduced shared interest or difficulty with reciprocal interactions that can make some of that incidental language learning less automatic.

When I say incidental language learning, I mean learning language through play and activities rather than like studying language or like flashcards or something that. And so neurotypical children will often acquire language naturally through playful social routines.

Autistic or other neurodiverse children may need intentionally designed, affirming interactions focused around like their interests that show why communication matters through connection rather than compliance or like a more structured approach.

Right, So I think what you're saying as a sort of thesis for the episode is that we're talking about play and how play helps to develop language, but for our neurodiverse individuals, it might look a little bit different or we might need to insert ourselves in their play a little bit differently.

Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the key things we'll chat about today is like, what is play even?

You know.

And I think we both have some stories from like early in our careers. I certainly do.

Trying to teach this, and that's why I'm really passionate about it now is because I think research has come out with some really great alternatives. And then clinically we've also lived and breathed a lot of different strategies to support communication and language through play.

And some of them have been really successful and some of them haven't.

Yeah, absolutely.

I love this topic because it's such a fundamental piece of both SLP and ABA fields, but also like psychotherapy and OT and like ECEs or educational assistants, teachers. It's really like the foundation for so many of us. And I think it's one of my favorite things to teach at the clinic, like to our new staff.

So like how to let loose and be silly.

We have like professional development sessions that we'll do quite often and I usually deal like one of them a month to just like have Fun and be silly.

Because I feel like if the clinicians can't be silly with themselves and with each other, they don't feel like they can in front of us in supervision or with their clients. Right. So I want them to, like, think out of the box.

And sometimes you have to break on your own barriers as an adult and just be ready to be like a kid yourself. I know my husband often says, like, he loves Bluey the show. I love it too.

My kids are obsessed for a short period of time, but because it kind of teaches you how to play with your kids and just something simple, like having your child on your lap and, like, playing the piano on their back, that's something that the dad does in Bluey. And Evan's like, that's so brilliant.

I can just.

Sorry. My husband says that's so brilliant. Like, he can just recreate that sort of, like, play chain.

So shout out to Bluey if you're interested in how to learn how to play. Sometimes, like, we gotta think outside the box. And these little dogs teach us how to be better parents.

Oh, very fun.

Very fun. But one of our favorite quotes to.

Kick us off today is, play is.

Anything that's sparks joy. That comes from Maggie Haributa. Okay. She's a BCBA and owner of Unfurling Littles. And she said that play is anything that sparks joy.

I love that because it kind of shows, like, there's no prescriptive thing to follow or set program that you can follow. It's not a set structure.

Exactly. And it's so important, especially when we're looking at our neurodiverse learners. There's no single right way to play.

Not all kids are playing with dolls or farms. Some like to line things up. Some spin wheels. Some like to sit back and observ. Some like to look at something out of the corner of their eye.

And so these are windows into, like, what's meaningful to them, rather than trying to make play this structured thing.

Totally.

So when we enter a child's world, even if they are, like, twirl things or lining up toys, we're saying, I see you, and I want to connect.

And so also remember, when we're talking about language and learning and communication, we're not just talking about spoken words, language Itself is a structured system for sharing meaning. That's how we actually define language. And whether it's verbal, signed, gestural, or visual.

And then communication more broadly, then is an intentional act that lets another person know what we want, what we need, how we feel or notice.

Exactly.

And like, often that's what we're seeing in those for early intervention or young individuals on the spectrum where they are many ways that they are communicating, right. Be maybe they're not talking at all, but they are communicating by leading you somewhere. They might point or lift up their arms for you to be.

To be picked up or blowing through their lips to ask for more bubbles. So these are all different communicative acts that tell us, the recipient, what they're looking for.

And so whether they invented their own little hand motion that only you, as their mama, knows, that would also be a form of communication. And so these are like, we want to think about all of the little ways that they communicate.

And that makes up sort of a personalized communication system.

And so for our neurodiverse learners that maybe aren't picking up spoken language or spoken or speech the way that they're typically developing peers might be, we can think about all the unique ways that they do communicate. And so we want to focus our efforts on increasing the variety of ways that they can communicate using their body.

And so if your child is leading you places, then adding in other ways that they can communicate things, even without vocal speech can be really important. And so when we start embedding communication into those joyful moments, that's when we see.

That's when we see those big steps forward where you see that one of my favorite therapy moments is when communication connects. They start to see why communicating matters, why it's useful to let other people know what I'm thinking and what I want.

And so I think through play, you get so many of those. Like reaching your arms for up is a big one. Right. And then maybe we're going up, or maybe you want me to spin you around.

And those could have two different actions that the child's doing. And so I love just like embedding those communic and opportunities within play.

Absolutely. And when coming back to language, language doesn't start with a parent or an adult asking, what's this? What's this? What's the name for that?

Or flashcards. And if I'm honest, if parents ask me about using flashcards at home, I usually say, don't, please don't do it.

And another one they teach us, don't say what's this? Like, if you know what it is, then don't ask them because you're constantly testing them, not teaching them.

And so your child is actually going to learn so much more from just playing with you and you just labeling things around them and using language as you play rather than kind of drilling them or quizzing them.

For sure. And I think that actually brings up a good point too with, we call it generalization clinically.

So if you're holding up a flashcard and they say that's a fire truck, that's a garbage truck, that's a police car, whatever, do they then ever use that word in the real world or are they really only labeling these things when they're shown these flashcards? For is pointing out, hey, look, I see a fire truck.

Right.

And sometimes for our neurodiverse learners, the flashcards can actually make that generalization piece a bit tricky. Like they become. Can become more rigid.

True.

In sort of their language acquisition. And so that's where in play is so fun because the environment around you is always kind of changing and morphing.

Yeah, that's a good point. I remember a learner that we, I think we had together that was like, he only knew the thing if it was that one card. Like he couldn't generalize.

And we didn't know that for like this is a long time ago, but we sort of didn't realize that it wasn't generalized generalizing or similarly. He was a reading. He read and he could only say like, see it if it was in that specific font or like the specific like card and stuff. And that's.

We talk about generalization all the time for that reason.

Right.

Like sometimes. And I never thought of it that way though. Like play kind of lets you continue to change things up because it's not structured.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what we want. Again, with neurodiverse learners, certainly autistic children, there's often a lack of spontaneous communication.

Yeah, yeah.

And so once you start making it so that it's more of like drill based stuff. Some children I do think like genuinely do love the flashcards that I work with. They like that sort of structured approach.

They like to know what they're doing.

Yeah, for sure.

But I think it can also make. It can also lead to a lack of spontaneous communication where they're waiting for you to say what is it? Right. Instead of like offering it.

Right.

And so like you'll always say model.

Model, model, model, model.

I see a banana, I see an apple. And then you add in a thoughtful pause and there's an opportunity then for them to communicate.

Whether they say a big sentence, I see orange, or they were pointing. Right. Even if they pointed at a picture. That's a really nice way of you bringing me back into your world. Right?

I was showing you mine, now I want to see yours.

Yeah, exactly. And so we create these like joyful interactions. Like, like you said, I'm bringing you into my world or I'm coming into yours.

And the moment where that child indicates, like, let's do that again, you know that that's like a huge win. And we're building play and communication opportunities there. We're also like co regulating during those moments and increasing shared attention.

And that's so reinforcing. So I was trying to think of an example of this sort of joyful interaction. And there's a plating that I do with my daughter.

I know you do with yours too, with your son. And it's just very simple. Like London Bridges falling down, the song. And I either hold my own child on my hip or a learner at the clinic.

And then I start sort of singing the song. And then when I'm saying, so London Bridge is falling down. And when you say falling down, you sort of like lower them down on your bend your knees.

And so you do it once and see if they like it. And you can usually tell right away if they're like leaning towards the ground, then we stop.

But if they're looking up at me and they giggle or they say again, then this is that moment where we've created this joyful opportunity to learn. And then I can add in where it's like up, up, up, or like down, down, down or spin, like you said. So we can kind of change it.

And I can get them to like, gesture to me if they want a variation or they can imitate it. And so like just thinking about a very simple example of how we're building communication into this, like, joyful play opportunity.

I think the research world has really changed in the last, I would say every year, really. It seems to be moving forward quite quickly right now. And so I really only was prioritizing new research for today's podcast.

So this one looking at play is a pleasurable, intrinsically motivating, freely chosen activity that engages the child physically or mentally. It's not just Fun. It helps kill kids develop their emotional intelligence, their decision making, problem solving and their social connection skills.

So I, we started with a looser definition. Anything that sparks joy can be play.

Yeah.

But then I also appreciate like the research definition because they want to measure it and. Yeah, that sort of thing.

So truly true. And that freely chosen activity. Yeah, I love that definition. That's actually great.

And so when we think of typical children or neurotypical children, play is often the natural context where communication develops. And so it's like through this back and forth games and pretend play, these shared routines, language often emerges.

But for our neurodiverse children, especially those with autism, this process looks different. And that's okay, it's just a little bit different. And their brains learn differently.

And so again, we're gonna probably say this a couple of times in the episode, but one thing we wanna acknowledge is there's no right way. And what I was just saying about like their brains being different, it's not right or wrong, it's just a difference. And we want to acknowledge that.

And so we're, yeah, we're just going to keep saying that there's no right way to play. And so if the child's lining up toys or spinning objects or repeatedly explores textures, they might still be playing.

If it's meaningful to them, even if it doesn't look like a typical idea of play or pretend play. Yeah.

And like adding like, there's no right way to play. Like if you try and push your own agenda, it's like banging your head against a wall. Like so many clinical stories.

Like early in my career when I was a behavior technician working in families homes, we almost always had a play program in the go and I always hated it. So in this program in from an ABA perspective, we would set out the farm and then there would be an action first.

So first you put the cow in the barn. Did the child put the cow in the barn?

Right.

And then did they take the horse and have them eat hay? And it followed this like script sort of thing. And then once they mastered that toy, then we introduced another toy.

Right.

So that was like one thing that we did. I never felt like, or it never led to any sort of functional farm play.

Right.

Another common approach, video modeling. Yeah, that one I have seen some success with. For kids that have good imitation skills.

Right.

But again if they don't, if the learner doesn't have an interest in a farm, then you're going to end up with like them just like observing things people do at the Farm them imitating the script, which maybe then could become pleasurable if that was like, if your child likes. Some kids like scripts and like to say them, but probably not. And so.

And then I remember, like myself when I became a behavior analyst, just being like, there has to be a better way. It cannot be this. And so like, would go to all the talks at conferences about it and just always felt like I was missing the mark. And I think it was.

Cause like, we were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and just like, sure, play with this farm. You will like this farm.

Yeah, yeah. And you're not following your lead at all. You're trying to get them to follow yours.

Exactly. So if you push your own agenda, you're like missing that opportunity where play could be that bridge to communication.

Right, Exactly. And we talk about this in our. We have a series called let's Get Talking where we kind of show families. It's like a parent empowerment type program.

And so sometimes I'll embed these kind of ideas into my parent coaching sessions whenever possible. And I'll tell parents to follow their child's lead.

But I always say, like, that doesn't mean we're letting them just like dump bubbles all over the floor or like, do anything they want by following their lead. It means we're watching and observing and getting curious about what they are interested in.

And so, you know, like the farm example that you were saying, like, the cow doesn't just have to moo and pretend to eat the grass. That's like, not the only way to play with the cow. The cow can be spun or he can hide.

You can hide him in the sand or throw him in a big thing of bubbles.

Like, you know, there's other ways to do that and doesn't have to follow this sort of like adults, we sort of think like, okay, when I'm gonna pick up a cow, that's what I'm gonna do. Because I don't really know what else to do with it. But get curious and watch your child and see what they're into.

And then you can kind of follow their lead that way.

Exactly. And that's where I think, like, stepping back and observing really is the first step. So you kind of figure out what sparks their joy.

What are they doing again and again? How does their body tell you that they're excited? And then once we identify some of these points that these.

These joyful moments, we can call them like an entry point.

We can build routines around them that are joyful and naturally Invite communication and like I said, make play that bridge to communication, for sure.

And so what does it look like in practice and how do we teach this? Like you said, like, that first step is observing. And you're watching without judgment too.

And that's important for some of the clinicians listening in or educational professionals or like teachers and ECEs, that kind of thing. Like, you want to be watching without judgment and then knowing, notice what the child is doing when no one's directing them.

And you know, are they twirling things? Are they lining up cars? Are they like flipping pages in a book?

Or maybe they're sort of taking all the toys and pulling it into the corner and like, how could you, like, get curious about it, observe it? And then how can you use that sort of to make a play experience with them?

And I wanted to mention, like, when we think of our neurotypical learners or, sorry, our neurodiverse learners, According to the DSM 5, autism is characterized by these differences in social communication. And we by definition, often see this restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior. And so what that means is play. It can look different.

And so language isn't developing through the same pathway as it might for our non autistic peers.

And so, you know, they may be doing these, like, restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior, but to them it might be joyful and it might be playful. Oh, for sure.

It definitely is.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so you want to, like, observe that. And that's where that.

No judgment when Keith comes in, like, knowing that that's just gonna be part of, like, their play and that's gonna look different often.

Yeah. And again, it can be. Act as a bridge, you know, and then what I.

When you're sitting back and noticing, I wanna think about, like, okay, they're putting all these toys in the corner. Is it that? Do I think that they like collecting things?

Right, right.

Do I think there's like, only red things are in the corner? You know, and I wanna look for kind of the nuances of this thing.

And so.

So if you're lining things up, is there. What are the specifications that make this line really good?

You know, and like, really, I want to sit back and observe and try and get so much details. If you're flipping pages, do you like the feeling of the wind on your face? Do you like the way it looks when it's flipping?

Do I think it's both of those things? And once I have more information like that, then it gives me what I need to join in.

Right.

And so we at the clinic follow a lot of Tamara Casper's research. She's an SLP bcba, and she has this concept of sensory matching.

And so after I've sat back and observed sort of thing, got some hypothesis about, what do you like about this activity? Why are you doing it? Then I'm gonna think in my brain, okay, I want to join in. What do I think they liked about it?

And then I can use that information to create sensory matches. So I think you like the feeling of that wind on your face. How can I make that wind even better? Right. How can I make that experience better for you?

And so I might go in and, like, at first, just sort of sit beside them, maybe mimic some of the stuff they're doing.

Like, if they're lining things up, I might make my own line or start spinning stuff or turning pages really fast if I think they really like the wind. And see, over time, if I can introduce little moments that require communication to keep the fun going.

For sure.

And so if I can figure out with this book example, we do have a learner at the clinic that does. She likes the books to be fanned at her face, and we can do it just a little bit better than she can because her hands are so little.

And so it's a really great opportunity then for me to either be like, did you, like, like, do you want to keep going? Here's a great communication opportunity. I have fanned. Whoops.

I fanned this book across your face or, like, in front of your face and you feel the wind. Do you want more of that, or are we all done? Right.

So the book could either go up or she could show me with her hand to, like, flip the book a little bit, and then I know to keep going.

I wanted to point in there when you were saying, like, if the child's lining up and you're observing them, it doesn't mean, like, I'm getting in and disrupting that too.

Or did talk about that y. Give that previous episode.

Yeah.

What it was called.

Yeah. And also, like, not just taking that book from her and say, oh, here, I'll do it for you kind of thing.

It's like, how can I make it better and more fun? Not, like, taking control.

Yes. Yes. Your examples were perfect, but I just.

Wanted to, like, highlight that. I know you're thinking that, but for everyone else listening. Yeah.

I think there's some really other. Like, bubbles is another one that almost all children like. And adults can just do it better.

Usually we get more bubble, bigger bubbles Smaller bubbles. Another one we'll do at the clinic often is a lot of the kids that we work with right now anyways have an interest in collecting things.

And so getting a bin to collect them in and they can dump them out.

Yes.

And then either the visual of seeing them dumped out is very cool, or some of our friends like to get these, like, soft balls and then having this and the sensory sensation of it on their body getting dumped over them is also very fun.

Yeah, I love that. And I do find that parents often ask me, like, oh, I don't want them just, like, dumping things.

But what we're saying is, like, they actually love it. And it's very, very, like, expected that kids are going to really love that experience of, like, filling and dumping.

It's like, such a fun way to play. So we just kind of embrace it. Yeah.

And, like, obviously you can only make communication opportunities if they're engaged.

Yeah.

And so if they're not, like, I could keep offering that farm toy to them every day. Right. But if I haven't found a sensory match for it, if I haven't found a way to bring them into it.

Right.

Then there's no joy here. They have no reason to communicate with me. They don't want to be doing this. I guess they could communicate stop.

Hard to build out more robust or more communication opportunities if there's no joy and connection because the learner wants out.

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

And so then we're looking for those, like, gestures, like reaching towards you or like, leading your hand, or they might even just, like, blow in their own mouth into the air, like, blow for bubbles to ask for that. They may have, like, their custom sign for do this. And those are so powerful.

It's like, we want to look out for those opportunities where they're communicating to us intentionally, and we're using that as an opportunity to grow and build their language.

Exactly. And you and I could talk about this soapbox for so long, something we're so passionate about. So at the heart of all of this really, is our.

Our belief that communication begins with connection. Y and so we want to center joy and respect in our play and create conditions for communication to emerge naturally.

Because we've been doing this for a long time, and I've hit our head against the wall so many times and seen that if you try and push your agenda, the communication either doesn't generalize well or doesn't advance beyond sort of like a single word or like a handful of words. Whereas when you embed it in play and can make it more meaningful to them. Do you want to go up or down? Right.

Up and down are now valuable to me and meaningful because I only want to go up, I don't want to go down. And so by embedding these opportunities for learning within play is where we're seeing that communication really flourish.

For sure.

I was thinking about how in ABA sessions, you guys call it pairing, which is kind of like a fancy word for just saying, like, when a new instructor is meeting a learner or when an instructor is meeting a new learner, you're really just associating yourself with those joyful, positive experiences. Right. And trying to bring up those things that the client enjoys. And then you're pairing that with yourself.

And that's where that word pairing comes in.

Yeah, it's like you're pairing things that you know that they like or you think that they like with your presence. So that then in behavioral speak, you become a conditioned reinforcer.

Right.

Through that pairing process.

Right. And we. Oh, sorry, that's great. Go ahead. In speech, we do it too. We just don't have like.

Yeah.

And conditional reinforcement. But we certainly do that.

We start every session by like building that trust and connection, which is sort of what we're trying to say is like, start with that connection, build that trust, and do it by observing the things that they like and find joyful. And so let's talk a little bit about how we play.

There are actually different forms of play and not all are equal when it comes to building language and social development.

And so we wanted to start with something that we've sort of alluded to, just not really defined, which is adult directed play compared to child led play play. Right.

So adult directed play is where the adult decides what to play. Sounds. Makes sense. The adults deciding what to play, how to play, often even how the child should respond.

Right.

So think of that parent with the farm set pretending to eat the grass and then the dad saying, what does the cow say? Luca, does the cow. What does the cow say? And prompts the child to say moo.

And tries to hand the child child, like toy cow while the child has their back turned to the parent and is lining up the other farm animals.

Right? Yes.

You know, a lot.

And like, fair. Right. And so that's why we love like putting a, like helping you to see that, hey, you can actually change this up.

And it doesn't have to be adult directed. Exactly.

And like, no, it's not the farm's fault. I keep bringing up the farm Farm can be a really great toy.

Yeah, yeah, we love so many farms.

Exactly. But what I. I think it just is, like a really good example of this type of play that can be structured and controlled.

And so there is like some sort of place hashtag. It's not the useful.

Not over placing blame on anyone here. Just like, I'm stuck on that now.

Yes. It's just like such a good example where, like, you often think there's like, prescribed roles. Right.

But that's not what's going to build that spontaneous, joyful, functional communication. There's a time and a place. It's just probably not when you're working on communication skills.

Yeah. And again with that farm, like, you gotta watch the kid and see what they're doing.

Maybe they're throwing the animals over the barn and hey, that's fun. And what if you, like, put something cool behind it so that it jumps even higher or something like that?

Like, just watch what they're doing and try to, like, hold back on your own thoughts of how this place should look.

Yes. I love this example and I do want to ride it out. So this, like, throwing. If you're playing with the farm, the child throws the animals over the farm.

So this would be my sitting back observing. Right. So I'm gonna sit back, observe. Okay. They seem to like throwing these. I wonder what they like about throwing them. Okay.

I think they like watching it fly through the air. I'm gonna then put a bucket on the other side.

Yeah, yeah.

See if we can catch them in the bucket. So we do that for a while. They're loving it. It's so fun. My.

My goal as a parent was for them to learn that the animals go inside of the bottom barn, for example.

Right.

So now I've got this routine at the time where we take turns throwing the animals. Now I might model putting the animal in the stall, opening the stall, throwing it over.

Right.

And then give them the opportunity to put the animal in the stall, open the stall, throw it over, and you see how then I'm embedding what maybe as a parent, I'm thinking is functional in air quotes play. But also still keeping that joy and fun going.

Right. And you're really just building another step into it too. So you're, like, making it a little bit more elaborate and more fun.

Because otherwise, otherwise they may just kind of walk like, okay, this was fun for a little bit, but now for adding things on, we're like, oh, cool. I didn't know it could do that. And then like, you're building on. Right?

Exactly. Exactly.

Perfect. Yeah. And so we've talked about adult directed play, and then child led play then is obviously different.

And what we are promoting, as I'm sure you can hear through our examples. So here the child chooses the activity, the materials, and the page pace.

And then the adult follows the child's lead, joins their play, but without, like, hijacking it. Like I said, we're not just, like, pulling their toys out of the line. That probably would be very unjoyful, very, like, disruptive to that person.

And so instead, we're looking for these moments to connect, expand and respond without taking over. And that's so important. And like, I. I want to also say that parents who do take over or do, like, play with the farm set like that.

Like, we see you and I've been there. Right. And like, I'm not saying that we're judging a parent that's doing that. Like, not at all. Because I love that. That parents trying to play.

Yeah. And it took us like 15 years to figure this out.

Yeah.

And like, live and breathe this.

Yeah.

Like if, like, parents just, like, would have no way of knowing.

No, exactly. And that's what come back to, like, that bluey thing is like, hey, how can we play a little bit differently?

And, like, get these, like, examples to kind of push our own boundaries. Because we played when we were kids or maybe we didn't. Like, a lot of, you know, a lot of people will say, like, well, my.

I didn't really play a lot with my parents and my siblings and stuff. And so it can be a new thing. Thing. And so it's. I'm not saying it's easy. And I want listeners to know, like, we're not judging you.

If you are playing with the farm set that way at all, it's not your fault either. And as much as it's not the cow's fault.

Yes, exactly. For my behavior analyst listeners, we're looking at identifying and following those motivating operations.

So the things the child's naturally interested in that increase the value of social interaction or communication as a reinforcement or.

Can I pause you? Is motivating operations the same as mo?

Yes, that's what it stands for.

Yes.

Okay, perfect. At the clinic, we use MO as the acronym.

Is that common, like, vernacular? Like, do people say, like, what's your mo? Yeah, I think so too, but it.

Stands maybe something good for maybe motivating operations.

And so again, an MO technically means.

Like, motivation is good. I think.

Yeah. Perfect.

Boils it down Yep. If anyone's getting ready to write the exam, you keep those motivating operations in mind.

And then we're using lots of ABA principles, really, within these naturally occurring communication opportunities, like reinforcement. And I think oftentimes when we think of reinforcement, we think of saying, good job.

Right.

And, like, saying, good job playing is not what I'm talking about at all.

No.

You're gonna look at those naturally occurring types of reinforcement. I'm gonna find that way to make the play even more fun.

Right.

Ways to respond to those communication acts that are reinforcing. So they said they reached. That told me you wanted more. Perfect. Here you go. I'm not saying good job reaching.

I'm giving them that natural consequence of more stuff. And so that's what I'm talking about with reinforcement. I'm. They're telling me bubbles. I'm blowing bubbles. I'm not saying, good job saying bubbles.

That would be, like, slow down the reinforcement. Really? They just want the bubbles.

Yeah.

And so I'm not saying to add in praise to your play. You're thinking about. About how do I. What tells you that that was the right thing to do? And then how. What. How can I make that clear to you?

So you said bubbles. I blow bubbles. You say more. I give you more. You reach. That tells me you want more.

Right. I love that.

I feel like we need to almost, like, slow down and pause on that one, because I think it's hard for, like, new clinicians, too, to realize, like, you know, they say bubbles, everyone wants to scream and, like, go excited, get excited. But, like, no, you gotta blow the bubbles right then. Right. That's the big thing. And that's where, like, you're.

You always teach me, like, you're pairing that behavior with the reinforcement. And the reinforcement here isn't good job.

No.

Like, yeah. And you. You blow them, and then after you blow them, you might say, you asked for bubbles. Yeah. You love the bubbles.

And I'm not saying don't add language in, but you're, like, blowing it, and that's the first thing.

Exactly. In aba, we like reinforcement to come within, like, three seconds of the behavior.

Yeah. Pretty immediate. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Faster if it could.

Yeah, Exactly. I just wanted to circle back there because I feel like that is something we end up coaching lot.

And you almost have to, like, sit on your hands and, like, don't just clap for them. You want to, like, do whatever that thing is that you want them to do. Yeah. Cool. Okay. When from. You were just talking about. From an ABA Perspective.

But from a speech pathology perspective, if the child's having fun, I find it often means they're learning. Right.

And so sometimes I'll tell parents, like, if my husband wants me to watch a documentary about an obscure musician from the 70s, I'm like, I'm good. I'm likely, like, half listening, honestly, and, like, you know, making social media posts or something and pretty much losing interest.

But if you were to, like, put on the Taylor Swift documentary, not that she's my favorite artist, but, like, I was very interested, and so I remember so many of the details because I was interested. And so my example is like, this hangs. It holds true for all of us.

If you're more interested in something and you're finding it meaning, like, you're gonna find more meaning from it and remember it. And so at the clinic, we don't. We don't just follow their lead and leave it that way.

We try to, like you were saying, add ourselves into the play to make it even more fun. So we're always trying to show our staff, like, how can you make it more fun? And so throwing those farm animals in a big plastic vase of water. Yes.

Like, and you make a big splash. Yes. Like, that's how you're, like, sort of making that even more fun by taking stuff that they want to do.

So if they're liking throwing those farm animals, what if I throw it into the big Bennett water?

Yeah, exactly. And then again, like, that reinforcement piece is we think they like that big splash.

So I'm gonna have my communication act right before I throw the animal in. And that way I'm reinforcing that communication right away.

Right.

And then another thing we're going to be looking at following ABA principles is prompting. Right. I'm going to help them achieve that better effect or modeling those communication opportunities.

Going back to that example with the farm animals and the water, we might prompt the word drop. And when they say drop, then we can release the animal into the water and make a big splash.

Or we might help the learner to get the animals from the bin and then pass them to us.

Or, like, for some of my learners, I might use shaping where I have the bin initially, like, right beside us, and then gradually, I'm moving it further and further away and increasing that response effort. And so there's lots of different ABA principles really at play when we're teaching these skills.

And that's where, as you were kind of highlighting it is so challenging, and there is so many nuances. And even us as professionals are Learning more and more stuff every single time.

And then certainly as a parent, I'm learning a lot through playing with my kids.

Right.

And so there is so much nuance there.

For sure. For sure.

And so there are some evidence based on based naturalistic developmental behavioral interventions.

NDBIs, like Jasper pivotal response training, the early start Denver model, these are all evidence based strategies that use playful natural interactions. And what they have in common is this beautiful blend of structure and spontaneity and truthfully are hard to do.

Well, totally. Yeah. And research backs it up too.

So the ndbis, the naturalistic developmental behavioral intervention, can be effective strategies for supporting that early communication specifically for autistic learners. And they build these skills like what we call social reciprocity. So language and engagement.

And we're not relying on rigid adult driven teaching models. I was just thinking, can we define social reciprocity? As I was saying, the back and forth that is involved with social interaction and communication.

Exactly. Yeah, I think that's perfect. And I think all of them sort of boil down to these motivating operations.

And like the child's motivation are the key to providing those communication opportunities. So because they become naturally occurring communicating opportunities, that the child is actually motivated to participate.

Yeah.

So the child isn't emitting a communicative response because it was prompted or externally reinforced. They're responding because the reinforcer or that preferred item is embedded in the interaction. So it's like naturally part of that thing.

Like the bubbles.

For sure.

Like they, I love them. You blow them, they pop and you either can have more or we can clean it up. You know, you've got that choice point naturally.

So their behavior is under the control of naturally occurring contingencies. And that's when we see those generalized spontaneous communication.

Lovely. I wanted to pause us and just I feel like we're throwing in a lot of really good terms.

We mentioned Jasper, but I wanted to define it because it's actually an acronym. Oh, I'm just gonna. Yeah, I've got it. I wasn't gonna throw you into that. But it's a model, so it's Jasper model for communication.

Sorry, the Jasper model for children with autism. And it's an acronym for promoting joint attention. So that's where the J.

A.

Comes in. Joint attention, symbolic play, engagement and regulation. And so that's what we're saying when we're talking about Jasper.

I know it's a beautiful child's name as well, but it's talking about Great building these things that we're saying here. Like building that social reciprocity, engagement with one another.

So again, what you said, again, I was saying using lots of these great terms like naturally occurring contingencies. But I wanted to break it down for parents and other professionals, even myself, 10 years ago, as an SLP, I wouldn't have known what that meant.

And so in simple terms, it just means that the play itself is engaging and motivating, which you said. Yeah, for sure. And so it's so powerful, and it's different from teaching.

That happens when we provide an instruction and then just say, like, okay, now you can play two minutes on your iPad. What you've been saying, and I agree, is like, the motivating part is the play itself.

Exactly, exactly. I'm not like, bribing them to come and be with me.

Right.

I'm observing and joining those moments. And that's where shaping comes in. And we can use this so much inside of. Inside of child LED play.

And I think you talked about shaping a couple of minutes ago about, like, slowly making it, like, adding in maybe a time delay or something like that.

Could be an example of shaping, for sure. It's when we're, like, sort of reinforcing the lowest or like a small behavior. So if the bigger picture skill is them saying, I want bubbles.

Right.

Or bubbles, right. My Clinically, we say it's reinforcing successive approximations. I was just trying to figure out a more colloquial way of saying that.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

But what we'd be looking at is, for bubbles, for example, initially I would take a reach. I would take anything right over any sort of communicative act. Then after you're doing that for a while, I want to push you a little bit more. Right.

This whole time I'm saying bubbles, bubbles, bubbles. All the time, bubbles. And then eventually you say, ah.

Right.

Perfect. I'm blowing bubbles with that. Sounds nothing like bubbles.

Right.

But it's really turned on your voice, and you don't usually do that. So I want to let you know that was awesome.

And I'm giving you even more.

More bubbles. All the bubbles.

Yeah.

Then we're going again, and you say B this time. First time you just say ah. Now you're saying B. Wow, this is so exciting. You've got, like, some correspondence with what I'm modeling.

Right.

Your book matches my bubbles. I'm very excited about that. All the bubbles. All the bubbles.

All the bubbles.

And then maybe later on I hear a bub. Yeah, right. Like, huge party and that. So that's what I Mean by, like, kind of start with like, a really small step, and then you're going gradually.

And we always say, like, you should notice the difference, but the learner shouldn't.

Like, if you're doing really good shaping, you're pushing them just that, like, little extra centimeter and so that you feel that they're making progress, but it's not much. Like, it doesn't feel stressful or like that you're, like, pushing them out of their, like, zone of comfort.

Okay. Yeah, that's cool. That makes sense. And so what you're saying here is, like, there's no pressure, there's no. No expectation and of perfection.

Right, you're saying that too. And, like, you're saying, like, I'm going to shape that initial response and then continue to help you build that skill. Yeah. Over time.

Over time. And like, each child is so unique. And so you never know.

Like, some kids, you could work from no word at all all the way up to bubbles within maybe an hour and a half session.

Yeah, right, right.

For other learners, like, that could be six months.

Yeah.

Never fair. Right. And so we know sort of like some of the best practices and ways that you can encourage, say, vocal communication.

But if that's not working, then we've got other strategies too that we can use. But shaping is a really powerful one. Even like that example of the bin. If my goal is to get you to travel across a room and go get a.

Named a zebra from a bin of animals. Right. I don't know why this is a goal, but let's pretend it is. Is initially, I'm probably not going to make.

Make that bin really far away because the response effort is so high and.

Responsive effort means you got to work longer. Yeah.

It's so much work for you. And so initially it's like within reach.

Right.

Then I'm gonna put it just out of reach.

Right.

Then I'm gonna put it like five feet away.

Right.

Then I'm gonna put across the room or something like that.

Exactly.

Okay, cool. So another way we can think about this in play then is like a car play, for example, another favorite one among our learners.

And so maybe the child is totally loving zooming cars back and forth. And at first you Just sit near them. Then maybe you're going to hold your own car and they look over at you and you're going to respond by joining in.

And then you might have them join in on a really fun idea. Like you zoom your car up the wall and then you let it crash to the floor. And this is something I know one of our clinicians did at the clinic.

I was like, oh, that's such a fun idea. I never thought about, like, just running up the wall and let letting gravity come in here.

And so maybe then they're, like, including you in their play and you're gonna resume your cards together and crash them down. And so that's. We're also shaping this, like, joint engagement where you're doing something together for, like, the mutual. Like a mutual joy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Because you're building then that foundational social skill, which is that shared attention.

Yeah.

Social reciprocity.

Turn.

Taking all from a place of connection, which really is what being social is about. Right. Compliance. You know, I'm not social with a police officer. Right. Because that is more of a compliant relationship. Right.

Whereas, like, with you, we have a social relationship. And so it's fun. And, like, we can connect and learn from one another that way.

And so with the kids, we want to keep that same idea where, like, certainly our neurodiverse learners, because of those social communications deficits. This is trickier. Right. And that's where I often say they're missing learning opportunities, not that they cannot learn.

Yeah, yeah.

And the more that we build in this idea that being with others is fun and motivating, the more we can help them learn from their environment.

Love that.

All right, so let's bring some science in. Of course. I want to talk about the verbal behavior development theory. Very briefly, Douglas Creer.

We did talk about him on a previous episode, Words waving. And what counts as communication.

The vbdt, or verbal behavior, which is really the foundation of aba, is what verbal behavior refers to, like how we see communication in language and social interactions.

Right.

So it tells us that language isn't just a set of skills. It's a developmental journey that has a bunch of.

Again, in ABA vernacular, we say cusps, but really these ideas that are these skills that open the door to new kinds of learning. And so an example not related to play is often like learning letter sounds.

And then when you can combine them and learn to read, that unlocks so many learning opportunities for you. You can now read signs in the community. You can read books. And so that would be an example of a cusp.

Right? Like learning that at says cat.

Exactly.

Oh, I know the C says and I know an A says A and then I can put them together. And you're saying that like is that next step.

And like, now that I can read, I can access so many new learning opportunities. Outside of this example, outside of reading cat, I can now read dog, I can now read Stop. I can read bathroom.

I can read a book and learn about planets or whatever. It's just what a cusp is.

Broad example.

Yes, yes, exactly. But another cusp is this one. Incidental. Incidental.

Bi directional naming, which is a mouthful, but also my very favorite moment in therapy, I would say. And we'll test the kids that come to our clinic. Just usually we'll test this kind of like monthly to see if they've picked it up.

And so this is how we see typical children developing language. So they just pick up labels for things from hearing them and seeing them use in the right context, tags.

I'll Never forget my 2 year old said to me, I can't remember what happened. But he goes, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Right.

I'm like, what? Where would you possibly have heard that? And then PJ Mask episode came on and they had said that.

Yeah, yeah.

And so he was watching the show and then try like. And then he would just like try it out in different situations and see if he nailed the social context or not.

I love it.

So cute. Yes. And so with the children that come to the clinic, for example, we, a lot of them participate in what we call theme teaching.

Right? Yeah.

And so at the beginning of the month we'll show them flashcards. Not my favorite, but it's like most effective way to test their knowledge and see if they can identify the item or label the item.

Right. Like this month, a zoo, for example, like do you know, zebra and whatever. Yeah.

And then at the end of the month we'll test that same vocab. And then what we're looking for is how many of these did you learn from through like structured flashcards or like some sort of structured approach?

Could be real items, but like more of a structured thing. We've got specific targets, we're tracking them over the month.

Y.

And then which targets did you pick up? Just like on your own? Like, because we do lots of. Or the staff do lots of fun activities with these, like play chains.

Right.

Putting all the animals in the water. Then they'll label them as they're dumping them in the water. Versus like some, like, this is a zebra. This is a chimpanzee.

Like, they're not doing that. There's like, oh, this is zebra's going in.

Right.

And then we're testing do they know zebra at the end of the month.

Right.

And that's really what we're looking for there.

And your, your term, incidental bidirectional naming.

The incidental part, again, we said this earlier is like, I'm picking it up through this play, not through me teaching you explicitly by reading a textbook or a flashcard.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so what this verbal behavior development development theory that Greer and his colleagues have established is that it's kind of these set of costs. So bidirectional naming being one imitation.

Right.

Another one.

Right.

Emulation. So similar to imitation, but kind of doing it your own way. You see the final product, you're like, okay, I see what you're working on. I can do that.

They all are contributing factors to really creating a robust language and communication profile. And so by doing that, this within naturally occurring joyful routines, we're not just teaching them. This is an airplane. This is a fire truck.

This is a police car.

We're really working on the series of skills that lead to you acquiring vocabulary and communication skills, like being able to imitate in the moment, being able to listen and hold onto that information for a little bit and be like, oh, you know what? I heard mama say fire truck earlier. This is a fire truck. I found it. And so some that the communication is complex and there's many layers to it.

Is this also the term that you sometimes will apply in group?

So if we have a clinician and then a small group like this incidental bidirectional naming, if, like, I've taught another child, but then the other one has, like, picked it up, is this that.

Same term, same researcher, different term. Observational learning, we would call that. And again, really big skill.

Yeah, yeah. A different cusp. Right.

Different class. And like, it's certainly related and would contribute to strong communication skills.

Right.

See it a lot in, like classroom success.

Right.

If you can observe others and imitate or emulate what they're doing.

Right.

Then you can kind of pick up on classroom routines and that sort of thing. Whereas if you're not really observing what anyone else is doing and you're not imitating or emulating it, that is hard to be successful.

Successful in the classroom, because that's a lot to learn all by yourself.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay.

So on the right path, but a little bit of a different Term. But still all kind of working together.

Yeah.

Okay.

I would say yes.

Perfect.

Another thing that is important is autistic children are often perceived as uninterested in others.

Right.

Notes showing that autistic kids are highly motivated.

Yeah.

But that the context needs to be right. Which makes so much sense. Like you were saying about that obscure 70s.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Documentary. I don't want to do that at all.

Sorry. To my husband.

Yeah.

Love you. And love your interest in music.

Yes. But for our kids that are coming to the clinic, or if you have neurodiverse kids or actually any children at all, play is that context.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

And so that's what matters is when kids are allowed to choose and play in ways that feel good to them, their autonomy and joy is going up, up, up, up, up. And then therefore, so does their engagement. We need to stop trying to pull the kids into our world.

And I think, again, that's where I felt like 15 years ago, as a behavior tag, someone was just like, banging my head against the wall. This is not working. And it was like I was trying to make them come into my farm world for sure. And I needed to get into their world.

I love that. And then we've talked about the different types of play, like adult directed versus child directed.

But I also want to talk about adults in terms of like, coaching families. We used to always say, like, parent training. And we might have mentioned this before, but now we try to say, like, parent empowerment.

Because the parent is like the sort of expert on their child. And you never want to be like, assume that they're not. Like, you want to know this parent knows their child the very best.

And so you're acting like a coach and kind of showing them what we know from the science and our experience and our clinical knowledge. But I'm not like, coaching them as a parent. So anyways, just a shift in language there. And so it doesn't mean giving them like a list of strategies.

It means like, co creating these joyful moments and interactions that feel natural and real to them. So it's not a checklist. And so what we do in the clinic and our sessions is when we have parents involved is like, okay, I'm gonna.

I know that you know your child best, and so you would know they really love, like, spinning these things. But I'M gonna show you how I insert myself into this play or, like, how I make this even more joyful.

And so I'm going to maybe show you this playchain that I've created. Now I want you to try it, and then I'm going to give you some feedback. And, hey, this is somewhere you guys can build joy at home.

So when we build capacity and reflect together, families start seeing their everyday moments as therapy opportunities or communication opportunities. Really?

Yeah.

Um, and those are the most powerful interventions of all. Like, we're talking about generalization. We want to teach them the words that matter.

Right.

Not things that are coming up on a checklist.

Yeah.

On an assessment even. And so I find, like, when we spend that time with those families, teaching them, like, oh, they already, like, I was just in a meeting this morning.

They like, happy and you know it. Awesome. They can do clap your hands, they can do stomp your feet, and they can do shout hooray.

Right.

So I'm chatting with the families, like, okay, now use the. This idea. Add on some other instructions, See if they can do them then.

Right.

Or we talked about, like, it's a zoo theme this month. So there's a zebra on the car. On the car or something.

And, like, seeing if we could get, like, can they find the zebra in the bin and bring it over to me and like, that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

And so we go to the parents for that knowledge and insight. And then I find if we can help coach them on a few examples, then they're like, aha, I got you right now at bath time. You know what I'm doing.

And then they've got this, like, cool thing that, like, we're not a part of bath time ever.

Yeah.

Where they've generalized, like, some of those strategies.

Love that.

And like, trying to show parents and that it is bath time that you're doing this stuff and meal time and, like, diaper changes or, like, getting dressed. Like, these are the times when you're kind of building that in with their favorite stuff and then making, like, using that vocabulary.

Because that's what's really meaningful, too. So they're learning about their socks and their underwear or, like, you know, getting out of the bath. And that's where you're using the. Those words.

Yes, exactly.

When communication arises from something that the child's already doing, already a part of, already loves, we're not just teaching the skill, we're supporting the development of all of those kind of foundational skills that I was talking about that career.

And there's other theories as well, outside of aba, supporting the development of sort of all these little skills that we think lead to being a really good communicator. Developing great language skills.

Exactly. So play based interactions, especially the kind that are joyful, flexible and child led, have this powerful neurodevelopment.

Neurodevelopmental benefit too.

So we've talked about some of this, these skills, but it's like they're promoting this social reciprocity or like this back and forth part of communication and interaction. Joint attention, which is the ability to coordinate attention between a person and an object or event.

And it's like one of the earliest ways often that children learn to communicate. Communicate. And it's like a building block of that social communication.

Exactly. And also gives us like opportunity to build on their play skills. Right. And expand them even. I don't even want to say build, just expand them.

Yeah, yeah.

Again, core deficit of autism, often restricted and repetitive interest.

Right.

And so what we find though is sometimes they have this restricted interest and then it gets old. It's no longer an interest anymore.

Right.

And then because we didn't help them expand or explore other options, now it's like kind of hard.

Like they just feel frustrated most of the time and we can't figure out what that thing is, you know, and because their communication is delayed, then it just leads to like unhappiness and not joyful sessions. And so I do really encourage people to use those sensory matching principles.

Yeah.

To think about how can I expand or expose you to other ideas of play without messing with what you already like. And so we can help them maybe do develop skills like symbolic play. So like that pretend play using one thing to represent something else.

Right.

Like pretending a block is a phone or a spoon is a rocket ship. And so we're looking at expanding their play repertoire. And a sign that they're like, learning is expanding.

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about that example of like, you want to expand their play repertoire.

An example comes to mind with One of our BCBAs, Jane, who created this like really cool playchain with a child. And she said, like, I know my learner loves bubbles. Like love, love loves bubbles. But I can't bring out bubbles for like three hours in a row.

Like I can't just do the bubbles all the time. And so then it was like she built this really cool elaborate playchain where they were doing some bubbles.

And then they had this like long tube on the floor that they would like hold up and like do do kind of thing and then they would like kick the. I don't know. Anyways, it was like so elaborate and so cool.

But she like paired the bubbles with like all of these other kind of stuff steps and then made this really elaborate like play sequence that now he loves all those other things instead of just like thinking, oh, I gotta like make him happy, I gotta get do the bubbles.

Right. It's like an obstacle course.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Like we blow the bubbles at the beginning, we do a couple cool activities and then we just finish with the bubbles.

Because I know those are like your two favorite things. So I've got those anchoring the activity.

Yeah.

And then what I'm doing. The other thing I always often say, and like, I think for parents to know too is like a lot of your ideas will fail.

Yeah.

You know, it's like you won't get that buy and you set up the obstacle course, you made a little balancing board for them. They refuse to even step on it.

Yeah.

You're not going to force them to step on it. I'm going to be like, okay, that was a miss. Now I'm going to go back to blowing the bubbles. I'm going to have a new activity in my obstacle course.

Right. And for this learner and Jane, it did take a long time. It wasn't just like, oh, spontaneously, here we are building all these things.

I was like slowly over time building this association. Yeah, yeah. So I just wanted to mention that. So you talked about symbolic play. I love that.

Like just kind of building it in and we can just model it as the adult then when we're playing and it helps to generalize things. And then I was also thinking about executive functioning. So like things like cognitive flexibility and impulse control.

Like when we're doing this open ended child led play, it challenges kids. So we talked about this like in the beginning. Like we're now getting them to shift between roles.

Like whole different ideas in their minds and like have these creative problem solving abilities and then like plan out their actions. Like they're actually doing a lot here. And so there's a lot of different skills.

And so you know, if a parent says to me, well, you're just playing, I'm like, okay, well actually we're doing a lot. And I love. You always tell them too. Like you'll see. Like it's fun for sure.

And we're having all these moments of joy, but it's hard we're working on a lot of stuff here. So we're working on like self regulation and like adaptive functioning, like so many things. And this just like.

Just play. Yeah, exactly.

And like I think for us creating that space for this kind of like joyful interaction that's not controlled by adults, we're honoring the child's neurodevelopmental pathways. And for us providing that neuro affirming.

Care, that's really important to us for sure. And so it's not about correcting how a child plays.

I feel like if you've listened to this point, you've definitely heard that one one time and time again that the play doesn't have to look one specific way. There's like whatever sparks joy and it's not about like correcting how they play or how they communicate.

It's about meeting with them where they're at and then building those skills to support their autonomy and their well being. And that's what real support looks like.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So there's one thing for you to take away from today, it's this language isn't just about words, it's about connection.

The most important thing we can do is follow the a child's joy and build out from there. So join in the fun, spark the laughter, wait for that glimmer of anticipation that tells you that they want more and pause that moment.

That's communication in its purest form.

Totally. Thanks for listening to neurodiversely speaking.

If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone who loves a late Tucker, a twirler, a giggler, or a joyful child in their own special way.

Thanks everyone.

Thank you.

Hi, I'm British.

Hi, I'm Shawna.

And we're here on the podcast. And we're here on the podcast. Happy birthday. What? Can you hear me? Yes.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

See you next time.

Bye.