Shownotes
A Conversation with Helen Burton, London Managing Partner, Ashurst
In this conversation, Helen Burton, London Managing Partner for the international law firm Ashurst, shares her journey through a multi-faceted 31-year long legal career. She considers what coaching could have offered her during more difficult periods early during her early career. and talks about her practice as a finance lawyer specialising in acquisition finance. She shares her views on the business and commercial aspects of law firms, the need for broader skills in leadership roles within legal circles, and how personal achievements in career should be recognised. Helen emphasises that realising there are shades of grey in professional decision-making, instead of thinking in binaries, could provide more balance and contentment in life.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Background
00:32 Helen's Journey in Law
02:12 Work-Life Balance and Personal Life
02:49 The Role of Coaching in Helen's Career
03:09 Helen's Experience with Maternity Coaching
05:31 Returning to Work After Maternity Leave
07:27 Helen's Experience with Career Coaching
10:51 The Business Aspect of Law Firms
14:37 Helen's Experience Running for Global Chair
19:10 Reflecting on Early Career Challenges
32:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcripts
[00:00:00] So today I'm delighted to be joined by Helen Burton, currently London Managing Partner of international law firm Ashurst.
[00:00:07] Full disclosure, Helen and I have known one another for a very long time. She was my trainee in New York when she first started out on her legal journey at ANO. And then I was lucky enough to move with Helen in the next couple of career moves that we both made. But I'll let Helen introduce herself and tell you some more about her amazing career.
[00:00:25] Over to you, Helen.
[00:00:28] Thank you very much, Erica. And it is a real pleasure to be here this afternoon. so yeah, I'm a lawyer and I have been working in city law firms for over 30 years, the last 31 years. I am, as you said, I'm a partner, I'm based in the London office and I have been based in London throughout my career, apart from a brief stint with you in New York, but I was only there as a trainee.
[00:00:49] and I have spent the last 22 years. Ashurst. I have been, a 23 years. I've had the privilege of doing various leadership roles while I've been here as well as be working as a transactional lawyer. I've worked in diversity. I've worked in the graduate recruitment with the graduate recruitment team.
[00:01:11] and then for eight years, I was privileged enough to sit on the global executive team as well with different, leadership roles. and since May I've stepped back from the executive team and I'm now the London office managing partner. Thank you. And, and
[00:01:24] just for, so people understand a bit about your practice, what, what sort of area of law
[00:01:28] do you practice in?
[00:01:29] I am a finance lawyer and I specialize in acquisition finance or leverage finance, which is basically just acting for lenders or borrowers, in connection with M and A transactions, generally private, but also public. Okay, but quite high
[00:01:45] pressure, quite sort of fast paced.
[00:01:49] It's yes, it's a transactional role as opposed to an advisory role.
[00:01:53] So, I would always liken it to when you're talking to, juniors about which way they want to focus. Whether you're the person who would do your essays when you're at university the night before they would you in, then you're probably a transactional lawyer. Yes, I
[00:02:07] think we're both familiar with that feeling.
[00:02:10] And tell me a little bit about life
[00:02:12] outside of work. Outside of work. I am married. I have two children, two boys, an 11 year old and a 13 year old. I actually had my children probably a bit later. I think I was definitely counted as a geriatric mother. only technically, and, but that was not through design.
[00:02:34] It was through just how life had come along. and, I moved outside of London about six years ago and I'm still getting used to the idea that I commute. I'm not very good at making the change on time. Excellent. Thank
[00:02:48] you so much. So, so this podcast is sort of focused on coaching. It'd be great to know if you've ever had coaching, if you have, when you had it, what it felt like, what key issues did you deal with and, and was it useful for you?
[00:03:02] I have had coaching. I have had, I would say three different coaches through my career thus far. I had first, the first coaching I came across was paternity coaching. and then, which was just before I left the parental leave with my first child. and then, as I said, I've had two different career coaches throughout, the rest of my career, but that was a little bit later.
[00:03:29] And I think I would say that the, the, the most fulfilling coaching that I've had has been when you have a bit of a clearer idea of what you're looking to get out of it, rather than the maternity coaching, I feel. That I didn't get as much out of that as I should have done because it felt a little bit prescriptive every single, senior female going on parental leave got the coaching.
[00:03:56] So I felt a little bit like it was a tick the box exercise rather than actually what I should have done in retrospect is sort of grasp the opportunity and really thought about what I wanted to, achieve when I came back and actually joined my parental leave as well. Okay,
[00:04:12] did it help at all? Because I've always been quite keen for people to have coaching when they go off on maternity or paternity leave, just to give them a bit of space to think on their journey back into the office about how's it going, feel like there's someone supporting them, they've got someone to talk through how they're feeling.
[00:04:30] Did it help from that point of view at all, or not? It didn't sound like not really.
[00:04:34] It didn't really. It felt, it was useful. It was absolutely useful. It was absolutely useful from the perspective of sort of understanding. Issues you face when you come back to the workplace, having been off for a period of time.
[00:04:49] and I, so I think it was useful, but I don't feel that I got the best out of it because as I said, it felt as though it was, generic rather than personalized, but again, not a criticism of the coach. I think that was probably my reception to it. before I. I went on parental leave, I had no idea what it was going to, obviously nobody has any idea before their first child of what's going to hit you.
[00:05:16] And then, when I was coming back into the workplace, it felt as though I was just struggling to keep my head above water. And to some extent, the coaching felt as though it was something else on my to do list rather than something that could actually help me reduce my to do list. Okay.
[00:05:31] And just looking back at that period about coming back in after having had a baby.
[00:05:36] Have you got any, what would be your advice to someone doing that? Is there any, have you got any top tips?
[00:05:42] I think the workplace is changing a lot actually to make it easier. and here we have, uh, parental leave is offered to all staff, and the number of men who are taking it up is, is just fantastic.
[00:05:56] And so actually, I think that's one of the big societal changes that's going to make parental leave and returning after parental leave much easier for everybody because there's more and more people have been through that. I mean, I think that. What happened when I came back to the office was the horrible, horrible matters that I had handed over for someone to cover were sort of sitting on my desk waiting for me on my first day back.
[00:06:21] the ones where I might have, which were maybe nicer clients, didn't seem to come back to me ever, and I didn't... and feel confident enough in my own voice to go and ask for them to come back to me. So it was one of those typical, probably lose, lose situations. and I think it's really important to think about, you know, I was a partner when that all happened.
[00:06:38] So people often think, yes, it's a, you know, it's hard for associates coming back in senior research and it absolutely is, but it's also really hard for partners to give up things and then hard for them to come back and unvessel things back as well. Yeah. Okay.
[00:06:54] So be a bit more demanding, have a louder voice about.
[00:06:58] Yeah. Getting back your nice clients and your nice matters. And then anyone who's listening, obviously Ashurst offering parental leave to men and women is amazing because I think that is the change we need to, you know, we'll have a whole different generation of, of, of boys and girls growing up with fathers just as involved as mothers in terms of childcare.
[00:07:16] So it's a, it's an amazing thing that they've done. So let's hope more people take it up. So, so tell me a bit more about other times that you've had coaching
[00:07:24] and what you've covered. so. When I first had coaching, which I think from memory was when I'd first joined the executive team. and so that was, it was very much around, and again, it was something that was offered to me rather than me asking for it, although I think I definitely.
[00:07:44] Need, needed it or wanted it. and I would always encourage anyone if you're offered coaching, even if you don't think you need it at that time. Well, and as I've just talked about with the parental, legal coaching, it was always go in with a positive mindset. so it was really very interesting thinking about, yeah, as I transitioned to senior management.
[00:08:09] It was a big step change in management responsibility. It was a big step change just thinking about a law firm, not so much as a, as a platform for me to be a lawyer, but as a big international business. and also I think one of the other things, and I don't know if it's sort of the imposter syndrome or many of the things that a lot of people struggle with.
[00:08:33] actually coaching me helped me to stop being so concerned about how I felt, and thinking about my internal perception and my internal security, but actually thinking about the image that you want to project. To people, and how you can come across your leadership shadow, I think is maybe the easiest way to put it.
[00:08:57] Yeah. Okay. And, and
[00:08:59] any particular, any particular nuggets that you talk away, took away from that about how to think about yourself as a leader, rather than worrying about internally how you were feeling about it, like how, how to
[00:09:12] cast the right shadow. and I don't know whether it came from that, that coach or if it just came.
[00:09:19] Actually more formal observing other members of the executive team. One of the things I've always done throughout my career is look at other people, often people who are a more senior in their role. And I've had so many people, you included, but many, many people who have really helped me, throughout my career.
[00:09:37] And it's looking at people, that observation piece and thinking about things that I think work well. And actually also you see things that don't work well and you just think that's not something that I'm going to put into my toolkit because it just is grating. And then things that you see that other people do that work well but you also know will not work for you because you have to be authentic.
[00:09:57] you know, just like bringing your authentic self to work. So I think that, so whether it actually came from the coaching, whether it came from observing people, but I think the, Always remembering to take that step back. And I think it's particularly important when you're in that management role to sort of again, look at things much more holistically, try and have a bit of empathy, think about how things will land with different people at different levels across the organization.
[00:10:26] and just, just take some time to consider rather than, just launching in with a response very quickly. Yeah. I mean, I think obviously it's important to have your own style, I would say, but I think it can be really helpful to look at the approach of others and take elements of what works, what doesn't work, and then you develop your own, your own style.
[00:10:48] Yeah,
[00:10:49] that's such, such great advice. I mean, it's interesting about the business aspect of law firms, isn't it? Because We, when you're a lawyer in a law firm as a junior lawyer, you're just, well, you're trying, you're getting on with the technical job of learning, you know, how to do the work you've got to do.
[00:11:03] And then as you get more senior, you sort of get introduced to client relationship and trying to win business and develop those relationships. But then we never really get much grounding in running a business or setting a strategy or how you deal with the P& L. or even, I think there are more management programs nowadays and more leadership programs, but that thinking about the law firm as a business isn't something that's really focused on very much in law firms nowadays.
[00:11:27] I don't know if you've ever come across any, if you've ever been part of any helpful programs that have made you look at it as a business or if you've just learned on the job.
[00:11:38] It was more learning on the job, I would say, but I also think, you know, once you start looking at the numbers and the figures and seeing people who.
[00:11:46] are very, very good at running it as a business, you know, and, and stop feeling so defensive. I would always feel defensive if my practice group wasn't somewhere doing really well and it's like, no, it's not personal, this is a business and we're just looking at everything. I, I think that the other thing that law firms still don't do as well as we could do would be, There's the sort of people side, i.
[00:12:13] e. accepting that some people are better at people management, some people are better at expertise, some people are better, everyone has a different skill set, but we expect, the partnership to be able to do everything. and there's no sort of pointing different people towards different areas of where they're just more natural.
[00:12:32] You're just expected to be able to do everything. And it actually means that. Yeah, it's just, it's such a flat structure, which I think is great, and obviously it's a partnership, it has to be a flat structure, but I think that we are not very good, law firms in general, when I think about all my other places I've worked, are not very good at making sure that on the soft skills side, people are pivoting towards where their natural skillset falls.
[00:12:55] Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Like every lawyer wants to be A plus in every single bit, potential bit of their role. But clearly that's, you know, that's never going to be you. You're not going to be good at sports and amazing at music and amazing, incredible at maths, unless you're very, very lucky. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:12] Yeah, that would be, it'd be interesting for lawyers to get a bit more comfortable with accepting that some people can be brilliant at something that they're not so good at and to
[00:13:19] embrace it. And pull them in to be part of your team rather than just thinking that, you know, that, that's the whole point is that you should be building a team with a diverse skill set and finding people who complement you.
[00:13:31] Rather than feeling a failure because you're not as good as they are x, y, and zed. I also think one of the, things that I've really enjoyed as I've become more senior after sort of thinking about it as an executive role is talking to our clients, actually peer to peer as, as business, senior business leaders.
[00:13:50] And that's always really nice. So actually then you start talking. To, clients, but just about their strategy and our strategy and where it's going. And are we aligned and are the issues that we see coming down the road the same as the issues that they see coming down the road? So that has been really nice.
[00:14:07] And it's actually quite a good way to open up a different line of conversation. Yeah. So there's
[00:14:12] a whole aspect of being. In a law firm that you probably wouldn't think is there initially, like the fact you are running this big business and you are just like any other big business, okay. And then tell me about, I know you then had coaching again later in your career, when you were looking at, going for a role within the firm.
[00:14:29] So tell me a bit about that.
[00:14:30] Yeah, no, I had coaching, I think more generally, more recently, um, but it was really helpful. So I stood to, stood to be the, the global chair of ushers. A couple of years ago now, I think, and I didn't get the role, but what was really helpful for having, thinking through actually what I needed to do to better project in, in that role, if I'd had got the role, but actually the role generally, you know, the, the whole thinking about that role actually is as valid in my role now as office managing partner, It's, it's helping focus on, I guess, what you've achieved rather than the inordinate focus sometimes on, on missteps to a career.
[00:15:21] And I think it's just sort of similar, I guess, to the point I just made about looking at executives around the table and that are the executives that sit around on the table are not all lawyers at all, but having that taking a step back and having a more holistic view and actually trying to remember that about yourself as well on taking a step back and remembering that there are positive things and not just focus on the negative things we all have are in a self critic, don't we?
[00:15:48] Can be come louder and louder and louder, and it's just remembering actually didn't even need to turn that down, just turn the volume up with respect to what you have achieved in your career as well. So it's and I often think of it as actually being a bit self obsessed, which you think of as a negative.
[00:16:06] And so in a way that makes it easier for me to stop myself doing it because talking about being self obsessed makes it feel as though it's a bad thing to do rather than. Sort of me just not being able to silence that inner critic. Okay, so, so you're
[00:16:21] in the, if you, if you let your inner critic go, you're being effectively a bit self obsessed.
[00:16:26] You're, you're sort of, you're indulging yourself with your inner critic.
[00:16:31] Yeah, even though it doesn't feel like you're indulging because it's not a voice that you want to hear. Yeah, okay. But it is that.
[00:16:38] How do you remind yourself about your achievements and what you're good at? How do you make sure you do balance it on the other side?
[00:16:43] I think, well, I've got actually, I've got a word cloud, which is stuck up over my, in my office. And so that is which was sort of trying to bring together all the things that you have achieved and I think that's brilliant and it sounds so silly, but it's such a fantastic visual aid. and, you know, and to get to the cloud, then you have to go through and you write all the things that you're proud of and, and.
[00:17:07] Obviously, it's a longer list than you ever would have thought it would be. so, that I think is helpful. And I, you know, I think again, you're talking, you talked about sweeping generalizations about what lawyers are like. But I think lawyers do tend to be, tend to be perfectionists. That's the nature of the job.
[00:17:24] You need to get things right. and that perfection, perfection however, is largely unachievable. So, we tend to have that self critical. I'm such a failure if, if we sort of miss 1 percent rather than remembering that 99%. So as I say, having that visual and having to go through the process of actually thinking of all the things that you've achieved and not just in the office either, I think is really, really helpful.
[00:17:51] Yeah. Okay. So yeah. So go on. You carry on. And actually thinking about. You know, I, I didn't get the chair role and we have got a fantastic chair who's brilliant. So, but actually in my role now as office management partner, again, I think coaching has helped me focus on what I want to achieve in that role.
[00:18:09] and you know, still in relatively early days, sort of haven't been involved for six months yet, but thinking about though, you know, there will be things that are problematic and there'll be hurdles as we're trying to achieve what I would like to. but again, I hope that. The mindset of having a coach has made me realize, okay, so don't just give up, work around it, work, find a different work through, and just keep on going.
[00:18:35] Excellent. Thank you. And yeah, I would encourage everyone who's listening to. Maybe just take a bit of time out and write down what you've achieved in life from the very small things to the much bigger things, but even the small things, write them down, and have a look at them. And, and I will look at whether I can post a list of many, many potential strengths, on my website that you can have a play with where you can just go and tick, what are your strengths?
[00:18:57] So then you can look and see just how many. When you are really challenged to thinking about what's great about you, just how many you will actually tick. So I will put that up on my website so you can have a play with it. So then I think, Helen, we were going to talk about an issue, that you, where you think coaching might have been useful for you, at this point, as an earlier stage in your career, rather than something you're grappling with currently.
[00:19:21] And I think we were going to talk about the decision around whether to stay in the law. So do you want to talk a bit about that and when you think it might have been most useful to have a bit of coaching and then we'll, we'll potentially go into a bit of a mini coaching session to talk about what you could have considered
[00:19:36] around this issue.
[00:19:37] So I think the issue we talked about was whether I should stay in law and I think this is something I'm sure, I hope, everybody questions and rather than just carries on regardless of whether they're enjoying their chosen career or not.
[00:19:54] But I, I did not enjoy, say, my first two years post qualification being a lawyer. I found it incredibly stressful. I found it incredibly, no work life balance. and I think that maybe things have changed now because people are more likely to have different careers throughout their lifetime. But at the time...
[00:20:15] There was no real suggestion that there was any alternative. It just felt as though you get on this hamster wheel at the beginning, and that's it for the rest of your life until you retire. You're never even expected to move law firm, never mind change. Ria. And so I think that it would have been really helpful to have some coaching there.
[00:20:36] Because I think, and I, you know, it can feel like this at different points in your career where you feel as though you have no choice. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. and I think often people feel they don't have a choice because they are unable. Again, it goes back to everything, doesn't it? Step back. Unable to step back.
[00:20:56] And think about what do you want to achieve with your life? What do you want to do? You know, it's not just the, the money, but your work life balance and how you see yourself five, 10, 20 years. And I feel that I never really went through that process. I felt I was. Looking back, I feel that I was very miserable, um, and I don't think I ever had a conversation about exploring other opportunities.
[00:21:25] Which is slightly ironic, when the people I lived with, who were the same level as me, both ended up leaving law.
[00:21:31] Okay. And, and when did it stop being miserable for you?
[00:21:36] Don't say never. They have definitely, you know, they're definitely miserable times all the way through. but I think probably post the first two years, I think the first two years of, qualification, I think the first two years of partnership were pretty miserable.
[00:21:54] Maybe it's just that not really knowing, not feeling. That you're in the right role, but feeling a bit, as I say, hamster on a wheel, but sort of stressed by the level of responsibility you perceive that you have, which, you know, continues all the way through. Yeah. So I guess coming right
[00:22:15] out of your comfort zone is part of it.
[00:22:18] And then obviously stress, you know, we know people can have different reactions to stress or some people can get very stressed by them and some people can manage them well. And as we get older, we, we manage them better. We know, well, let's just take you back to like two or three years in, if you just imagine yourself
[00:22:35] then as they, we were, we were talking
[00:22:38] then, and I'm your coach.
[00:22:40] So you'd have told me you're feeling really unhappy, you're not enjoying your job,
[00:22:44] you're paid very well, but you don't have very good work life balance. So I guess I'd say, what would I say, I'd probably say, um, can you, have you got to a point where you would consider giving up this career? Have you ever thought about giving up this career and doing something different or doing it in a different environment where the demands aren't
[00:23:05] as great?
[00:23:08] I, I felt as though. I don't know why I felt it, but I felt as though it was law or nothing. And maybe it's because I did a law degree. So you sort of been thinking about being a lawyer from the age of 18, you know, you finally achieved it. You're a magic circle firm. and It would feel like a, a huge failing to admit that it's, it's not all that you thought it would be cracked up to be.
[00:23:40] but the, the irony, so I can remember, I may have told you this story before, I can remember going into, well, and I used to get the tube from Victoria tube station and there was always a homeless person sitting outside, usually having drunk quite a lot, but sort of 8, 13 in the morning. And every morning I would walk past saying, you're so lucky, you're so lucky you don't have to go and do what I have to do today.
[00:24:02] And that was it. To me, there wasn't anything between. It was either I'd be sitting outside Victoria Tube Station, drinking cans of Stella, or I was working in a Magic Circle law firm. And it was very hard for me to even contemplate that there could be anything. in between the two. And at the time, Victoria Tube station seemed a better option.
[00:24:22] And what
[00:24:23] was it, do you think, that was causing that level of unhappiness? Was it the, was it, the hours you were working? Was it... People not being nice to you? Was it not knowing what you were doing? What was it, do you think?
[00:24:38] I think it was the pressure I was putting on myself. Mm hmm. of feeling that you had to be perfect and had to do everything that you were asked to do, even if you weren't quite sure what you were supposed to be doing.
[00:24:52] Mm hmm.
[00:24:53] Okay, so that's so interesting. Because I guess the, the good thing about that, obviously it's not a good thing per se, but the good thing about that is if it's the pressure you're putting on yourself. Then there's something you can do about it to explore it. And where does that come from? Why are you doing it?
[00:25:06] And then can you control it? But we know, as you say, particularly a lot of people in the law do put enormous pressure on themselves. and then behavioral change is one of the hardest things to change and a very hard to do on your own. So either usually what happens is a big life event happens and then people's perspective changes overnight, or you have to continually work at, can you get that sort of self pressure?
[00:25:27] under control. I mean, do you think now looking back, there were alternatives? Were there other things you could have done?
[00:25:34] I mean, I, I'm sure there are a hundred things to say that the people that I live with, one went in house, you know, was still a lawyer, but went in house. One went, came to expertise, actually went off to be a magazine editor and then came back to the law.
[00:25:46] So, you know, another friend is now a recruitment consultant in law, but you know, wasn't even that you had to go and do something completely different. There's so many areas that are tangential that I could have done, but at the time it was as though I just had blinkers on. Yeah. Had these blinkers on.
[00:26:03] And I think that's the point, isn't it? When you're talking about making change happen. without that seismic event, actually often when you need that change up and it's a time when you're running yourself mugged. And so the thought of having to do... Anything else to think about where, when you're not at work and you're not stressing about work, which is like, just don't have the bandwidth.
[00:26:24] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,
[00:26:26] that's the great thing. If you can have coaching is the biggest, I mean, probably the biggest advantage to coaching or the most important thing about it is it gets you. Away from your desk and away from the day job away from the emails away from the meetings away from the pressure if you can force yourself not to cancel the coaching session, it will hopefully just give you a bit of space and perspective.
[00:26:47] so it's, it's an amazing thing to have. And if you, if you're not having it with a professional coach, then finding some people, you know, your personal board of directors or people you can go and talk to in a bit more of a strategic way, you'll listen. And reflect back, but not try and solve everything for you, but just listen to you and let you work out for yourself what you need to do.
[00:27:07] But I think it sounds like that space would have been. Really, really useful. I mean, the, the, the failure of not continuing in the law, how big an aspect would that have been a feeling like this was the path I set out on. I went, I did a
[00:27:21] law, a law
[00:27:21] degree. I went to law school. I've got an amazing job, even though you didn't think it was amazing, but I've got a job in a great law firm.
[00:27:28] Changing and going and becoming a teacher or doing something completely different. What would that have felt
[00:27:33] problematic for you then?
[00:27:37] It was just never something that I thought a practical, practical option. I don't know why. You know, again, I look back at it and think, what was I thinking? You know, there was just this absolute, this is what I have to do. It was a bit like I was a Duracell bunny and I was being pointed. And other batteries are available.
[00:27:57] But I was being pointed towards this is your career, so go. And somebody had wound me up and I just ran. And it was as though there was just no other alternative whatsoever. But I think exactly as you say, if I'd had an ability to step back, and it may well have been, you know, I, I've had a fantastic career in law.
[00:28:17] Absolutely fantastic. I've been here for not as just by being the lawyer for 31 years. It's been great. and I, so I don't know whether I would have done, but maybe just talking to somebody would have helped me set some boundaries around, you know, what, what life balance or the inner critic who's always saying, you're not good enough, you're not good enough, you're not good enough.
[00:28:38] and I don't think anybody was getting coaching back then, and, you know, talk to your peers, but I just. It just felt as though, as I say, there's just no alternative. Yeah. I
[00:28:52] mean, it's interesting as well, that black and white thinking about either you're in a, in a magic circle or firm, or you're outside the tube station drinking Stella.
[00:28:59] I mean, that's quite classic that I, people who come to coaching are very, and I am very black and white in my thinking. It's either I like it here or I have to leave. But there is a, there's, there's a massive gray that we can all explore, but sometimes we just need a bit of help exploring it and being open to explore it, not just reject it.
[00:29:17] So that I think don't, you know, challenge yourself. Are you doing some black and white thinking? And then the other thing I would say to a lot of people, nearly everyone I coach is having a mantra, which is, it is just a job. When something big in your life happens with someone you love and that you're worried about, the job won't be important at all.
[00:29:35] You will run towards the person that needs your help. It is just a job. It's a huge part of your identity. It's a huge part of your daily life, but it is just a job, so I'd encourage everyone to, to think about that. And in the scheme of things, you know, it's not the most important thing in your, in your life.
[00:29:50] so, so looking back on, on if you were talking now to Helen when she was three years qualified, what would
[00:29:56] you say?
[00:30:01] I think the key thing, so, I guess, believe in yourself, um, others might look like they have all the answers, but they never do, and your voice is as important as anyone else, often who's talking too much, so I think that is just feeling empowered to express your views, um, which took me a long time, and still sometimes I, I find difficult, focus on what makes you, I know, happy, fulfilled, contented, and proud.
[00:30:34] And try to make space for that in your life. Again, we all, I'm sure that everybody who's listening to this, you know, we all have very, very busy jobs. But it's finding that time. I mean, I absolutely wasn't finding that time at that beginning of my career. so finding time to, to, to make space for something in your life.
[00:30:54] It makes you happy, contented, it's really, really important. and again, and I think it's that point we were talking before about thinking about your achievements, taking times to step back, think about your achievements and think about where you're heading, going back to that. No, you see the black or white, actually, as you say, there were shades of clay and don't be frightened to divert if you feel the urge, and actually, if you divert, you can probably get back on track if you want to, You know, as I say, that often things can feel very binary, and then that's also the fear of making the decision because you don't know if you can get back to where you were if you make the wrong decision, whereas now I would say imperfect action is better than perfect inaction.
[00:31:43] You know, you just need to sometimes give it a go. it's taken me 31 years to work that out.
[00:31:50] I love it. So imperfect action is better than perfect inaction. I love it. That was a fantastic mantra. So thank you so much, Helen, for taking the time and for being so open, on the podcast. it's been lovely spending the time with you.
[00:32:05] Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure.
[00:32:08] Before we leave this topic, Helen, can I just ask you. Are you pleased that you stuck with it? Was it worth the pain at the beginning and the pain when you've been out of your comfort zone? Are you, are you pleased with where you've got to in terms of your career now?
[00:32:20] I, I think I've been so lucky with my career to have the opportunity to do lots of different things. And I said, you know, I've done lots of different roles at Ashurst. and everyone has been a real privilege and really show me a different aspect to what you can do. as a lawyer, so I know I am really pleased, but I do think actually that's the most important thing.
[00:32:43] And it's what I would probably not have done in those two years when I was really, really miserable, which is being open, being inquisitive, say yes, when people ask you to do things and throw yourself in because it just makes for a much more rewarding, fulfilling career. Yeah, and
[00:33:01] not, and just not give yourself such a hard time
[00:33:03] it sounds like, be kinder to yourself.
[00:33:06] Yeah, and I think that takes a little bit longer. Yeah. Okay. Thank
[00:33:09] you.
