D&D players have spent almost 50 years breaking the game, creating exploits that became monsters in their own right. This week: the peasant rail gun, an army of hirelings with a light-speed projectile; and the quantum ogre, the monster who is everywhere until it is observed.

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Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure

Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/

Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/

Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com

You guys are doing

specific monsters from older.

. . Steve Myers: It's not

specific monsters, cheats.

It is different cheeses.

Cheeses!

We're cheesing things.

I don't know if that's what you call it.

uh it's going to be what I

call it now, because it's way better.

Because a lot of the ways in

which the game has created its own

lore, its own D&D cryptids started

back in third edition and 3.5.

and Fifth Edition stands at the top of

this teetering tower of nonsense that is

50 years old and has given rise to a huge

variety of things that are just in the

game now and have names and wander about

the world of D&D in the same way that

wandering monsters roam around dungeons.

So

peasant rail gun,

something

like the quantum ogre,

I loathe

the arrow of destruction,

the False Hydra,

a wireless troll,

Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.

I hate this one, so, so much.

Welcome to Making a Monster,

the bite-sized podcast where we look

at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons

and other tabletop RPGs and discover

how they work, why they work and

what they mean for these episodes.

I've assembled a crack team of

D and D podcasters from all over

the world to track down monsters,

born of the system itself.

I'm Jeremy vine, I'm

a professional dungeon master.

My name is Jarrod Jahoda,

and you can find me on any podcast

platform under Mid-level Adventurers.

I'm Danilo, the

host/producer/editor of Thinking

Critically, a D&D discussion podcast

where we take a single word or

topic and discuss what it means in

the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.

Hello, I'm Rebecca

and I'm Steven.

And we are from A

House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron

A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.

So let's talk cheese!

uh, One of the most persistent

of these named exploit monsters

is, the peasant rail gun.

Have you heard of this?

Oh, yes, I have.

So the idea being you get, you

know, a thousand peasants, pay

them, you know, coppers, get them

to line up and pass a spear along.

Okay.

I got this, Steve, I got this.

So, rules as written a round

is exactly six seconds.

Now a free action does not necessarily

last that long and everyone gets one free

action that they can do during round.

so you take a bunch of peasants

and you hand a bunch of

peasants, a log a post like that.

You get a line of NPCs,

you get your hirelings, you get the

local villagers, whatever it is.

I feel that it's usually

a high level characters.

Low level characters don't really get

a chance to try this, but you get them

all in a long line, usually about two

miles long, and you give the person at

the very far end, a 10 foot pole, you

give them a stick, a whatever it is.

then you have

them "free action pass" the log

off to the next person in line.

Which by the laws of physics would

say that by the time you get to the

end of the row of pretty long line

of peasants, that you could pay

off because you're an adventure.

Why the heck not?

But all of these things

happen simultaneously or immediately one

after the other, but they're all still

bound within that time constraints.

They ready their action

to pass the stick to the next peasant.

And it goes all the way along

these two miles, because in the

D&D rules, a turn last six seconds.

So you can do whatever you like.

And everybody acts at once.

It's just these six seconds,

uh, somewhat malleable.

But the idea is that these stick

eventually will reach a velocity.

Uh, that when the peasant at the other

end of the line gets it, if they throw it,

it will hit with the force of this train.

Essentially.

I think they say, um, something

like the speed of light.

It'll probably hit out if you've got

enough peasants and along enough line,

that log is going

upon of miles per hour, and can

feasibly kill anything in one shot.

So you can accelerate

something to obnoxiously fast velocities

in a, this, this six second scope,

and then the one at

the end or the fighter, whoever throws

the spear, thus creating a massively

powerful, impactful weapon is the theory.

The corollary of course is if

you've lined up a bunch of horses,

on that same trajectory, assuming

that you have enough skill in horse

riding, you can dismount and remount

in six seconds and traveled down an

entire line of horses miles long.

Just kind of leapfrogging

over from one to the other is just scamper

through and, uh, reach a place before

technically, before you even leave it.

If you've got enough horses and

enough, I love this idea that

eventually people, it would be like

train lines that you just have a line

of horses across the countryside.

That one person just keeps hopping over.

Now, like all of these

things that we're going to talk about,

they're all kind of brain teasers.

I don't think any DM would actually

allow this to happen because

run a game, would you?

Yeah.

I mean, hell no.

Well, here's the deal.

We all accept the reality

disconnect that a round of combat

is the same shared six seconds.

So if a thousand people are doing

one thing and they've all held their

action to pass the spear, along in

that same six seconds, you build

up this ridiculous amount of speed

in a very small amount of time.

And that inertia just massive

damage for some reason, which, okay.

I see why people would

argue that to be the case.

But if you are going to suspend the

disbelief that everything happens

in six seconds, you kind of have to

suspend the belief in physics as well.

You know what I'm saying?

And I do love this idea

that when physicists in particular,

because there is this massive crossover

between general science nerds and

D&D nerds when they think, you know

what, I can break this, I can break

this game and there's nothing the

rules say that it can do to stop me.

Because if you, and

like, what, how do I say this?

If you are going to talk about physics

and inertia, Newton's first law of motion.

I was a physics major for a little while.

Oh, I'm So glad you're here.

I had someone explain the peasant

rail gun to me as what happens when

physics nerds try to break the game.

Yes, yes.

I started as a physics

ended up in theater.

You figure it out.

So, the first law of motion, an object

at rest stays at rest and an object in

motion stays in motion with the same

speed and the same direction, unless

acted upon by an unbalanced force.

By the very nature of people

passing a spear, they're

not maintaining any inertia.

They're constantly changing it.

By handing it off to someone who then

grabs it and they're a little bit taller

or their hand is a little bit rougher

or they're wearing gloves or whatever.

You're adding friction, you're changing

the way gravity is affecting it.

And you're changing the momentum involved.

It changes everything so much so quickly

that it might as well just be thrown by

the guy at the end of the line anyway,

cause it's all going to cancel out, right?

You know, forces don't

actually keep objects moving.

In fact, they are

diametrically opposed to that.

Like if you set a book down, it

doesn't just stay down on this table.

Gravity is still acting on it.

But the force of the structure of the

table is stronger than that of gravity.

So that's why the book doesn't

fall through the table.

I mean, there's atoms and

molecular structure and

bonds and stuff in there too.

But in terms of forces, the force

from the table is preventing it from

going to the ground because it's.

Even though gravity is still

pulling it down onto the table,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

which has really nerdy,

I mean like we have, Yeah.

we have to get down to this level

of abstraction to discuss this

particular concept because D&D is

a game, was not built for realism.

It was built for balance and,

uh, the fringes where those two

things overlap is where we get

things like the peasant rail gun.

Has this shown up in a game

that you've played or run?

To smaller degrees.

People have been like, if I hold

my turn to throw him and he holds

his turn to throw me, if he jumps

on me and I jumped on him, can we

get high enough to reach the thing?

And I'm like, okay, sure.

Every one of you has to make a DC 18

acrobatics check to pull this off.

Every single one of you, and only

if you all succeed, does this work,

otherwise people going to get hurt.

So like, so like, no, I would not

let like a peasant rail gun happen,

but if people want to work together

to achieve something plausible.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, we're talking about a game

that has floating eyeballs and dragons

and squid-headed terrors of the night.

Physics is relative, which actually

is true in our world as well, so

it's at least it's consistent.

One of the things that always

bothered me about that whole thing is

that people immediately assume that like,

logic and physics work out in their favor.

If I was DM-ing that, and someone was

like, "Oh, that's what we're going

to do," I'd be like, "Okay, cool.

just pass it down.

Nothing happens, guys.

I don't know what you're expecting."

She

technically like, at

least to here now, now nowadays with

fifth edition you could use a free

action to hand it and then a reaction

to hand it to the next person.

So that is, you're handing it

between two people over six seconds.

Ah.

fast at all.

The problem with

it is, is simple is okay.

You're assuming that that

item is moving at that speed.

I'm gonna make you roll for every one

of those peasants to grab that thing.

Now you've made my life hell.

Now I want you to roll 5,000.

enjoy.

And I'm going to tell you right now,

it's going to get faster and worse.

And eventually going to catch one of those

passes and then just decimate the entire

area because of you, because of you.

So I don't like

having to actually pay an organize

that peasant rail gun though.

mean, winding them

up like that.

Alright go.

points?

What is, what is the point

of that point in time?

Just to have them Fight.

So I

guess

Fight.

if you have an entire

army of people and you're like, I

need a rail gun in order to obliterate

Oh, I see.

fight.

I mean, come

of lining up 10,000 peasants

and having them pass the spear

down the line, just have just have.

just, just

give them some spheres.

You're going to save money.

Well, then you have to work out

like the lining of things like that

last guy, can't it doesn't have.

any time to like line up the shot before.

Not only that, but you have

to explain that entire premise to 5,000

people, I work with people and I only

work with three other people and they

can't do basic things half the time.

So which way is the spirit?

Is it going that way?

Cause I want to make sure

that I'm passing it right.

I don't want to pass it wrong.

Yeah.

"I turned it around, I'm sorry."

grabbed the tip too soon.

I thought it wasn't my turn.

I'm sorry.

And they have to have

all hold initiative to?

That.

That

Oh yeah.

very, complex.

I, in my games if you find a cheese,

you get to use the cheese once

and then you never get to use the

Uh, As sort of a treat for, for

you, for you putting in the effort to.

exactly.

It has to be a new cheese.

If I look up your cheese online

and I find your cheese, I'm sorry.

So I think that it hearkens

back to three, five in particular,

because at that time, everyone viewed

DMs as like an adversary and DM-ing

Um,

whereas 5E, it's

more, like in three, five, I'm

trying to stop the players.

The players are trying to stop

me the DM in five minutes.

You don't have that

that's fascinating.

that kind of DM.

Yeah.

I mean,

it took me a long time

to break myself of that habit just

because I started out playing where

I assumed the DM was the bad guy.

And so when I was the DM, I wanted

to be the bad guy and Fort my

players instead of helping them.

I'm like, what the hell is the point of.

Hm.

If your players come up with

something good, give it to them.

that's what you should do

if they outsmart your traps.

Good.

That's literally the point that

is fully you wanted for him.

I want to ask because you have

played older editions, so much of what

these exploits gets at is the relationship

between the DM and their players.

And I have heard that older

editions had a somewhat more

adversarial relationship as the DM.

Was that your experience?

I would say yes, but our

only because that would have been

the dynamic that a lot of the younger

groups have, and the older editions

were aimed at a lot of younger players

that those players are still playing.

Now.

I think a lot of those players have

matured and they may still have the

adversarial nature to it, but there was

a somewhat, I mean, you said adversarial,

that's probably the best way that the

DM was trying to kill the players.

And I think occasionally that was just

because the older editions will hide.

It wasn't that you were

trying to kill the players.

It's just, they were a lot less forgiving

when it came to errors and mistakes.

That if you fail to say, if there was

a chance that you would just die flat

out and that wasn't the DM trying to

kill you, it was just the situation.

It's like, we, they wanted you to know

that you're in an incredibly deadly world.

I'm just reading Appendix N by, um,

Peter Bebergal, which is a collection

of all the, some of the short stories

that inspired Gygax originally.

And one of them is a Robert Howard,

uh, The Tower of the Elephant, which

is very, very Dungeons & Dragons.

It's Conan, and I think one of the

first Conan the Barbarian stories of him

breaking into this tower, and he goes in

with a master thief who dies flat out,

like he just tripped a trap and he's dead.

Basically just failed a saving

throw and died immediately.

And this was someone who you

could theoretically say is like a

level 10 character, because he's

quite skilled up until that point.

But it's that idea that some things

that your character is fragile.

And I think that's what older editions

were trying to get the sense of, that

you can be very powerful, you can

have all the magic in the world, but

if you are incautious, if you don't

really notice everything around you,

if you don't think like you actually

would, in that situation, the world

can kill you with a, in a heartbeat.

But I do also feel that there

were a number of dungeon masters

who went, this is a great way

of ruining all the friends fun.

This is just me versus them.

I'm, I've got all the monsters,

the monsters are on my side.

I want to smash them, but they

are powerful too and they'll

be able to smash me back.

So it became more like getting the

action figures and smashing them

together, like a transformers movie.

And I didn't see anything

wrong with that style of play.

I think that can be really fun.

There are a number of times where

I've run games like that, where

I'm just like, I'm going to throw

a dragon at you at fifth level.

Let's see if he can take it.

Let's see what happens.

But yeah, I think older editions were sort

of much more suited to that sort of play.

And I think exploits certainly like

this one would be ones that play as in

those games would want to come up with.

It's like kind of defeating the dungeon

master through the rules is more of a

puzzle than just defeating the monsters.

Well, talking of DMs,

let's talk about the quantum ogre.

I encountered this idea

of the quantum ogre quite a long time

ago when I was looking at, I think

it was a second edition of creative

campaigning book where they just

talk about game design in general

and how to plan adventures and how to

organize your encounters essentially.

And the quantum ogre is the idea

that no matter where the party goes,

no matter what route they take,

they're always going to encounter.

Like, they can go by the waterfall.

They can go through the woods, they

can go, they can organize a cart

and to take them, to the capitol.

It doesn't matter where they go,

there's going to be an ogre on the way.

And sometimes that ogre might be

swimming in the, in the river that

ogre might be coming down the mountain

that ogre might just be lying in wait.

Sometimes if it's poorly planned that

ogre might just be standing in the

middle of the road waiting for them.

But it is something that I, uh,

I feel that it's probably because

I'm a professional dungeon master.

I'm having to prep a lot

of games a lot of the time.

And sometimes it's a lot easier just

to have an, uh, an encounter ready.

And it's usually when your

traveling from one place to

another, it could be anywhere.

It could be going through a

dungeon, but it's an event.

It's an encounter that the dungeon master

needs to happen for whatever reason.

But where it occurs is less important.

Uh, it just needs to be somewhere.

So the quantum ogre

to me is essentially like you have a

monster in your head that the party

needs to fight for one reason or another.

And it doesn't matter what the party

chooses to do, where they choose to go,

they're going to fight that monster.

From what I know of

quantum ogre, it is essentially

similar to, Schrodinger's cat.

This is something that

will happen no matter what.

It is "this ogre exists

and does not exist."

And as a DM, I don't care if an

ogre wouldn't naturally be here.

You're fighting an ogre now."

It is a

form of Schrodinger's cat.

Yeah.

Which if any of your listeners don't

know is the idea that if you lock a

cat in a box with a vial of poison

that is set to go off at a random

time, at any point in time the cat can

be thought of as both alive and dead.

I think you might be one of the

people who's most qualified to answer why

it's called the quantum ogre specifically.

Well, so in, in

physics, the idea of quantum state

or quantum flux is that something

exists everywhere in every possible

way until it's observed because

you don't know until it's observed.

And so that's the idea with this ogre.

It could be anywhere and everywhere

until it's triggered by the DM.

So that's really the idea of it.

Yeah, Quantum does seem to be

one of those words that's almost like

a free pass, like a get out of jail

free card for science fiction writers.

Like put quantum in front of it, that

makes it cool and interesting, but I

feel like we've, this is one of those

cases in which it's applied in the sense

in which it's understood in physics.

Is that right?

I believe it is.

Yeah.

There's a great line in a Futurama

episode, actually, where they're

watching like races of like quantum

sized horses or something like that.

And they announced, oh,

this guy is the winner.

And professor Farnsworth goes crazy.

He's like, ah, you change the

results by observing them.

That's not fair.

Which is exactly what

happens in quantum physics.

And this is part and

parcel with a conversation about

railroading as a DM, which I'm sure

we could do an entire podcast on.

Given the, uh, railroading is

reducing player agency, how much

do you rely on the quantum ogre?

And if you do then, then

what's the argument there.

D&D is hard.

The more I play, the more I talk about

it, the more I talked to other people

about it and have new perspectives on

it and have discussions like this, the

more I'm like man, to do it consistently.

Well, however many people you

have around the table is hard.

And this is one of those things that

makes it hard is trying to understand

where you can or where you should do

something like the quantum ogre as a DM.

And this, it's one of these things that

comes with funnily enough experience

and knowing when it's okay to do

it, knowing when your players might

spot it, but knowing that they'll

be okay, cause they trust you as

the DM, that it kind of makes sense.

And they're okay to go with the

journey on you and don't go, oh,

you, you know, kick up a fuss.

When in reality you're all

there for a good story.

And you got to trust the DM

to give you a good story.

That is the nuance that is just so

outside of my, you need decades and

decades of actively doing these things

to really be able to have a good take

on any given situation when you might

need to utilize the quantum ogre, um,

That is my get out of jail free card,

No, I

love it.

How can anybody do that

consistently all the time and make these

micro macro decisions that have micro

macro impacts when you're trying to

manage the expectations of however many

people, including your own at the table?

It's difficult.

And it's my main defense to any player

ever is like, the thing that we're doing

might seem easy, but in reality is hard.

So if you're having fun well done

because it's hard and, and the, and the

quantum ogre is a very, very, very good

example of what makes it hard for us.

and people argue that,

oh, it takes away player agency and

it alters the true like idea of free

will and choice within the game.

And to a degree, I agree with that

sentiment, but also there are things

that just need to happen in the game.

Otherwise you're just going to

be narrating a bunch of NPCs at a

bar, every game session, you know?

So I do use quantum ogres for specific

plot points for like random encounters.

I don't do that kind of stuff.

Like.

Smart about how they travel through the

wilderness or through the town or the

track bad guy or whatever they're doing.

If they're smart about it and they

roll well, I'm going to reward that.

And sometimes they

don't even need to roll.

Like if they come up with a brilliant

idea, just like in their head and

they're like, oh, we want to use

this crazy thing that I know exists.

And I'm like, you know,

that's real world enough.

And you obviously know

what you're talking about.

So sure.

It works.

It just works because, you

know, I didn't think of that.

But specific plot point creatures,

monsters, and NPCs, bad guys, whatever.

I think they really need to be

fought or at least encountered,

maybe not, maybe they can talk them

down or convince them to help them

or whatever they're going to do.

So I don't use them in the, like, you

have to fight and kill this thing.

I'm like you have to encounter it,

I feel like it's just

natural because sometimes when

you're DM-ing, it is nice to prepare.

And if your players are like, well,

no, we're going to go on the fly and

do something completely different than.

what am I supposed to do?

You asked me to come in,

you've asked me to run a game.

I'm trying to play a

game that's fun for you.

I have all of the stat blocks

for this specific thing.

I had the entire fight planned out.

Guys, we're going in that direction.

Sorry, It's not meant to be mean.

It's just, I think that sometimes

you as a DM get stuck in these,

well, this is what we're going to do.

Yeah.

I I'm bad about that.

I think a lot of times where I draw, so

I I'm terrible when it comes to DMing.

Cause I plan nothing.

And then I just will randomly grab stuff.

But when I did plan things,

this is what I would do.

And then people would get mad about,

well, I don't want to have to fight

that they wouldn't be in here.

What is a sand dragon doing in the ocean?

I don't know guys, if you

tell me why it's there.

I

That's what I had.

yeah, that's

what I got for the high.

I told you where the

campaign was starting.

You guys decided to board a boat.

I don't, do you guys want from me?

Yeah.

I think that that quantum ogre is, is

something that every DM does at least

once, because, I've got this really cool

encounter and I really want to do it!"

But sometimes players are

difficult because they, they

decide to do what they want to.

I think it's, again, the

part of that adversarial role is that you,

as a DM have set the limits and now I'm

going to test them and I'm going to push

the boundaries on that and make it, so

that way it's fun for me because you've

said, Hey, this is where we're going.

And I'm like, ah, yeah, but I'm

going to make it more difficult for

you to do what you have planned.

The quantum ogre does tend to get a

bad rap in it for exactly the same reasons

that railroading or the idea of like

leading the players along on adventure

path in this supposedly open-world

game, that prioritizes player choice.

We've brought up a couple of

reasons why railroading might not

deserve the reputation that I get.

As a player, I

try to railroad other players.

I was going to say, I,

I, as a player, I try and cooperate

with the DM as much as possible.

Steve will um, we played

in a Pathfinder game where you know,

there's this basin of obviously cursed

water and look at this basin of obviously

cursed water and we're like, Yeah.

we're not going to do anything that bad.

Thanks.

Bye.

And Steven.

You know what, not

only am I going to drink out of it,

I'm going to bathe in it, splash

it on my face, clean myself up.

But I think that I, I tend to

be rewarded for doing that.

Like the DM is understanding and

makes my character not more of an

integral part of everything, but.

Lets me in on like details, you

know, like, I went through and I

drank that water and I learned all

of the stuff about that curse water

and the curse that was put on me.

It gave the DM the ability to use me as

a vessel to help further the plot, which

made me an integral part of the story.

Even though I didn't actually matter.

just, think that you have to do that.

Sometimes railroading is not as

bad as everyone makes it out to be.

I think it is okay to try and test the

limits of your world and see where the

egg is and find where the horizon is

and see where everything drops out.

But then also be willing to play in the

space that you're given, just because

it's a sandbox doesn't mean you need

to, you know, every corner of it you

can in the world, if you can cooperate.

I think railroading also

gets a bad rap because are people who

railroad wrong in, in that I can railroad.

Giving you the option of choice,

like quantum ogre you can go left.

Or you can go, right.

But either way you are

still going straight.

I have only actually prepared this one

path, but I'm pretending that you can

actually branch out and do other things.

There are some people who go, no,

it's this one thing, no matter

what, I'm not going to show

you any, any form of, choice.

And if your character walks

south, then they'll die.

because

your actual direction,

you guys need to go is north.

So you.

Physically walked south anymore.

Sometimes if your DM is building

on your backstories and creating

a world involving you, it doesn't

feel like you're being railroaded.

You're obviously being manipulated.

They're obviously using your entire

story to make the story about you taking

away some of your agency, but you don't

feel that way because you're invested.

Whereas other DMs, you know,

make everything about them,

right.

Yeah.

So, so the better version of this

is lead me to the plot rather than.

You know,

uh,

plot on me.

right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a kind of, it's a kind

of game design jujitsu.

I think, yeah, because you

will run into players who are problematic

and don't want the plot thrust upon them

no matter what, who were like, well,

I'm a loner I'm not a part of anything.

And I don't have a reason to be

wrong in a game

about party dynamics.

Just one little thing,

Yeah.

I call it buying the ticket.

that's good.

Now I get why people say is

around already thing because it basically

it's taking away that player agency of

it doesn't matter which direction we go.

We're still going to encounter the ogre.

I don't always see that as

true, because if you it's always

that I leave it as the doubt.

It's like, if you take in the

road, maybe you wouldn't have

encountered the banners, but you did.

You took the ocean.

So you encountered the pirates instead,

and it's the same, same encounter,

but why mechanically it's the same

encounter, but the reasons why

it's happening is always different.

Um, and I do like to see it in

a little bit, like you don't

just have them out of nowhere.

If somebody says, oh yeah,

we need to go by boat.

It's like, oh, you better watch out for

the pirates then it's like, yeah, you

got to encounter the pirates because

that's kind of what you'd expect.

yeah.

That's Chekhov's gun.

Uh,

Well, let them know that

there might be pirates ahead of time and

is essentially the same as

being like, there's gotta be pirates.

Yeah.

And again, if I had to choose the road,

it's like, well, watch half abandons.

And honestly, do you probably would

say that no matter what, because the

chances are, they might be bandits.

Yep.

This is a dangerous

world and, uh, it will eat

Yeah.

The example I had in

this instance, it was the destination,

uh, end of a waterfall, my players

missing misinterpreted a map.

They could have gone down path A,

which is the correct air quotes path.

Or they could have gone down path B,

which is anywhere else in the world.

they misinterpreted the admittedly

poorly, uh, drawn map that I provided

them and they went down path B and my

quandary, then there's a DM was like,

okay, Did they just want that aimlessly

for the next, however many hours in

game, but then that's, then the world

is real and they've just been lost.

And that kind of makes sense.

And it's punishment for them.

And it makes sense.

And they use resources, which is

like an account in and of itself.

And all these other things are spinning

around, but then on the other, uh,

but then on the other hand, it's

like, that's boring and that's, maybe

that's not really fun then maybe they

won't enjoy that kind of playstyle.

Maybe it doesn't really add

anything to the game that they

you've got lost for four hours.

And maybe I should just give them

that sense of achievement that, that

you've found the right way in the end.

I heard on my, my first response,

which was no, you just get

lost in this hot sweaty jungle.

That's gross and you're tired and

you want to go home until you realize

eventually couple of successful

checks, a couple of successful hours

later, you've gone the wrong way.

Backtrack you go.

And the players learn a

lesson, I suppose, which is.

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