Newly-appointed interim managing director of Be First, Caroline Harper, describes Barking and Dagenham’s unique scale of opportunity to provide new homes for aspirational working Londoners. And with council-backed funding drying up, can the council-owned company find ways of making housing investment attractive to private sector capital?

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Thanks to Red Loft and Wates for sponsoring this episode. And thanks to London Borough of Barking and Dagenham and Be First for taking part.

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hello I'm Toby Fox from 1 and a half

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million new homes the local government

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challenge sponsored by Red Loft and

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weights we're investigating the role of

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local councils in the government's

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National ambition to deliver 1 and a

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half million new homes in this episode

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I'm talking to Caroline Harper who's the

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deputy managing director of beir the

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council's Holy owned development company

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about what makes Barky and dagum so

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special so Caroline here we are in the

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historic heart of

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um tell us what's special what's so

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special about London burrow of Barky and

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dagam um well I think in terms of

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delivery of development it's the scale

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of opportunity that is enormous um there

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is a lot of industrial land here that is

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not utilized as best it should be um and

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um so might not be occupied

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underutilized used for unlawful uses

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particularly of waste but then also

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we've got um from that the scale of land

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that can really deliver housing again I

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keep saying scale but at scale in a way

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that I you know I think is pretty unique

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to London possibly oldo common is the

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only other real Contender on so it's

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tens of thousands yeah exactly um and

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and I think that has it's important for

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lots of reasons you know there is I

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think there's a tendency we can focus on

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the shiny things that London has to

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offer which are important and make

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London a global City but in order for

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those shiny things to operate we've also

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got to have the places that are kind of

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the engine behind it yeah um and barking

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and dagam really offers that so it's you

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know this is an area where we've

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delivered lots of affordable housing but

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there's also the kind of um yes you've

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got the social rent side of things but

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also there's a huge Spectrum isn't there

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between social housing and then right to

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the top let's say Penthouse development

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and the values here are such that you

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can deliver um for those people who are

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part of um I guess uh aspirational

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working londoners is one of the ways

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that we use it yeah um and that is

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that's important for London continuing

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to function as a whole as well as for

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local residents that are here and what

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are the demographics of the people who

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are already here actually here well it's

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a it's a borrow that um is undergoing

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really significant change so if you look

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2:19

2:22

change it's very diverse um lots are a

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big Muslim population um um but also

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kind of um lots of people from Romania

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and places like that um so that brings

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with it a real kind of cultural mix um

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positives and also some tensions as

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you'd expect um it's a very young borrow

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um so actually bucks National Trends so

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again looking at that comparison between

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2011 and

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2021 um the working age population has

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grown by about 20% whereas for England I

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think it's about 3 and a half% 3.6%

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something like that yeah um and and

2:59

we've got a contract ing kind of over 65

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population so really interesting in

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terms of that Dynamics and what does

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that mean for um employment um and jobs

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um we know we're very keen not to be

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just an anchor for homes because there

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are real economic opportunities here as

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well um so kind of anchoring that that

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place um and um yeah I think I think

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that kind of sums up really and and how

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does that all translate into housing

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need what is the what is the housing

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need in in Bary and dagam yeah um I

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think and it depends on the scale that

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you look at it so you there is a big

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need for and a big political push um of

3:36

be first delivery to date on the council

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site has been very much about affordable

3:40

housing and how does that work um how

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does that work through in terms of

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delivery so um making sure that it's

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affordable for local residents it's one

3:47

of the reasons um that um the council

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having delivered on that H um on homes

3:54

it's one of the reasons that the council

3:55

has a relatively small temporary

3:57

accommodation budget um uh spend um and

4:01

then also um it's um really sort of um

4:05

still got a housing waiting list but

4:06

it's helped to manage that yeah um but

4:09

then there's also the kind of London

4:11

need if you like um so we have to factor

4:14

that in and we're very keen um

4:16

particularly in the kind of B first

4:18

phase 2 of um how do we build on our

4:21

Legacy to date to help um improve land

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values across the borrow and with that

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having mixed community so you know at

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the moment this is probably the most

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affordable B in London um and that has

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its pros and cons um but

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um we don't want to be the most

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affordable barer and therefore this is

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you know a concentration of people who

4:46

who don't have quite poor who don't have

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lots of money can't AFF to live

4:49

somewhere else it's not that is not

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sustainable um and and it also doesn't

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help with actually getting things viable

4:54

and so on and so forth so we need to to

4:57

bring forward a a mix um so

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housing needs to it's got you know um

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it's got to deliver on housing needs

5:05

here but it's also got to deliver on

5:07

housing needs for London with the

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express of bringing forward those mixed

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communities because that's how you get

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sustainability of place Etc yeah yeah

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and and this is all about housing we're

5:17

not really talking about jobs you're

5:18

talking about creating housing for

5:19

people who work elsewhere to look after

5:21

the rest of London but but there's there

5:23

are economic drivers here as well what

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are the main kind of economic drivers

5:26

absolutely um well there again there's

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huge amounts of opportunity

5:30

so the Bor is I think the only place in

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the UK where we've got two existing rail

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heads um which have cross Channel train

5:39

connectivity um and legal and general

5:41

owner site around um box Lane and they

5:43

are working on bringing forward a new

5:45

rail freight terminal there we're

5:46

expecting that to be operational kind of

5:48

um later in the 20s um okay yeah so you

5:52

know that that's happening um one of our

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jobs and we're working with Partners

5:56

like the tempestry growth board is how

5:58

do we harness the regeneration benefits

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from that given that box Lane is right

6:03

next to we call it Castle green which is

6:05

a big strategic Industrial Area um not

6:08

utilized as you would expect for a 21st

6:10

century London so how do we bring in the

6:13

logistics the um um industrial floor

6:16

space that is um fitting for London in

6:20

the 21st century and with it the kind of

6:22

quality jobs that meet needs of people

6:24

living here but also elsewhere in London

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and help with that kind of London's

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function um um yeah as as a global city

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um and then we've also got because we've

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got so much industrial land there are

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other um quite significant pockets of

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that that again need redeveloping and

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there are you know we have temps freep

6:43

Port um um and you know quite that's

6:46

where the Ford uh temp3 Port covers the

6:49

Ford's site they they produce diesel

6:52

engines there at the moment so you know

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yeah that's going to stop at some point

6:56

so they I know that they're looking at

6:58

because diesel engines are being B

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um so if you go on that site ever I mean

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it's incredible it's enormous absolutely

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enormous um and it's how does t Freeport

7:06

and Ford um utilize the kind of benefits

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that come in with being a free port to

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Anchor again um industrial um and when I

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say industrial it's not the kind of

7:17

gritty industrial of the past it's like

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what does London smelting furnaces and

7:23

cling it's not that um but it's um what

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actually do we need again to be

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functioning as a city and what does that

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mean for employment numbers here and

7:31

that's really interesting here

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particularly because barking used to be

7:35

barking dagam used to be synonymous with

7:37

Fords you mentioned for the Motorcar

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manufacturer I mean they were built here

7:41

there were thousands and thousands and

7:42

thousands of people employed building

7:44

cars that's pretty much all stopped

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apart from diesel engines yeah so the 10

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report is so it covers um several

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borrowers so um covers the Ford site in

7:54

barking and dagam then stretches a

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little bit into haing and then over to

7:58

thork um with reports and they've got a

8:01

remit to bring in I think it's about4

8:02

and a half billion pounds worth of

8:04

additional investment so no you know no

8:06

mean task hug yeah absolutely enormous

8:09

um and I mentioned box Lane earlier as

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one of the um rail heads that has cross

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Channel connectivity the other rail head

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is on Ford site um neither of these at

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the moment are utilized in any real

8:21

capacity um and again that offers

8:25

um it's how this works with the port Etc

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um but it offers real um potential

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benefits in terms of our supply chains

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and how we move things around um the

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challenges that we have getting things

8:39

across the channel um currently and then

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what does that mean for motorways the

8:43

kind of road to rail you know this is on

8:45

the river there's safeguarded Wars you

8:47

know there there's real scope here for

8:49

looking ahead in terms of you the short

8:52

medium and long term what does this mean

8:54

for how we get things into London and

8:56

then get things out of London and then

8:58

the connectivity to the Midlands up to

9:00

Scotland Etc so that kind of import

9:02

export side of things um so back to Bros

9:05

tax we need to talk about housing that's

9:06

what we're here for um we talked a bit

9:09

about how you've got very small

9:10

temporary accommodation list so so not

9:12

huge amounts of housing need in in that

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sense but still a need to produce lots

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of houses what are the targets and how

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have they changed so in terms of the

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kind of type of homes that we deliver

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here I think there's there's a

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difference between the council's own um

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sites yeah um which a lot of those are

9:32

estate renewal so that drives you know

9:34

how how do those um sites come forward

9:37

and to dat we haven't cross subsidized

9:39

with um private sale partly because the

9:41

private sale Market here is is

9:43

relatively constrained um the the rental

9:48

market is is almost bottomless yeah um

9:51

and and that's about viability land

9:53

value and desirability for private sale

9:56

yeah okay um and um so that you know

10:00

that impacts the types of I guess the

10:02

kind of housing product that comes

10:03

through um looking ahead so um for where

10:07

the council has land so where the

10:09

council has the greatest control of what

10:11

kind of housing can come forward I think

10:13

there will be a real um real thought

10:16

given to um what kind what what is

10:20

Affordable and is it affordability so we

10:22

see this already coming out with the GLA

10:24

in terms of a little bit of flex um

10:27

their proposals around key worker rental

10:29

product and so on I think um as a sector

10:32

we need to look at um how do we actually

10:38

um really get things going again um you

10:40

know things have incredibly massively

10:42

slowed down if you know um in terms of

10:45

um construction and there's a real

10:47

danger if we don't have sensible

10:49

conversations about well actually what

10:51

is affordability rather than the current

10:53

kind of policy um definitions of

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affordable then nothing will happen and

10:57

we'll still be having these

10:58

conversations going forward so is this

10:59

is this about saying that that what we

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used to call Affordable is no longer

11:04

affordable I don't know if it's quite as

11:06

black and white as that but I think it's

11:08

more than you know there's lots of talk

11:10

about well we need to look at things

11:11

flexibly and you know we need to um we

11:16

need to still make things happen I guess

11:18

my concern is it's not tweaking around

11:22

the edges it's actually sometimes we

11:23

need to look at um slightly

11:27

different more fun FAL changes if we are

11:31

to deliver it so I I give you an example

11:32

on on T's road which is one of our big

11:35

transformation areas and um then three

11:40

and a half thousand homes alongside

11:41

industrial Etc um one of the

11:43

conversations that we've been having is

11:46

well actually could we put um could we

11:50

structure a deal with a third party

11:53

where we um we go in at a certain level

11:57

of affordability but it's done on a

12:00

basis that actually in time potentially

12:02

that rent could be reduced because of

12:04

the Returns on it um and you know we're

12:06

still talking this um through and how

12:08

this could work yeah but actually that

12:10

could unlock it because it will free up

12:12

other sites along T's road to come

12:14

forward for you know Bill to rent um and

12:17

help with the viability and I I you know

12:20

th we are part of those conversations we

12:22

talking to the London housing fund um

12:24

guys about this um and that is happening

12:27

but I don't um

12:31

i' I'd say the conversations are

12:33

happening but we're not at the point

12:34

there that it's kind of in in policy in

12:36

ter how it's coming yeah exactly just an

12:38

idea but that is revolutionary yeah

12:40

because you you're starting about rent

12:42

you're talking about rent starting at a

12:44

high level and then getting lower over

12:46

time because you've paid for the

12:47

building yeah like naturally rents go up

12:51

not down yeah that's really interesting

12:54

yeah um and and and you know there's no

12:57

um this is a this is a working program

12:59

rather than rather than a commitment and

13:01

it might be that actually you know the

13:03

Returns on a building are better put

13:05

into um developing another site and

13:08

coming forward but you need to have

13:10

those kind of conversations and work it

13:11

through and keeping in mind you know um

13:15

the public sector can't drive all of

13:16

this we're all in a world where there is

13:18

limited public purse Council GLA central

13:21

government so therefore we need to make

13:24

things attractive to that private sector

13:27

investment and I I that is potentially

13:30

attractive to them so yeah okay is it

13:33

fair to say that the the targets set by

13:35

the London mayor that come out of the

13:37

targets that are set by government for

13:39

building new homes on an annual basis

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are irrelevant here because you always

13:44

overd deliver or or have you got targets

13:46

which you're striving to reach no we do

13:48

I mean we have policy targets um in the

13:50

local plan and then I think our actually

13:52

our housing on the the new figures that

13:55

have come out barking and dagnam housing

13:57

targets by that metric of actually

13:59

decreased as a Target um which is nuts

14:03

it's actually nuts um given and that's

14:05

just cuz it's a new way of measuring it

14:07

yeah and I mean I I think it's also the

14:09

approach that's taken um and there's you

14:12

know I I know that the GL is looking at

14:14

it in terms of actually let's look at

14:15

this across all of London rather than

14:17

necessarily what's been attributed to

14:18

specific borrowers um and that's

14:21

important because like I keep saying

14:24

there is a loss of opportunity here so

14:27

Kensington and Chelsea where are they

14:28

going to put five ,000 homes we can

14:31

easily accommodate 5,000 homes subject

14:33

to coming overcoming other barriers so I

14:36

can see why housing targets are

14:37

important but fundamentally we are a

14:40

progrowth borrow and we want homes that

14:43

um people can can live in so we need to

14:46

we need to deliver on that so that

14:48

that's not going away so that wraps up

14:50

another episode of 1.5 million new homes

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