Back to school can be a wild ride for both kids and parents, and in this episode, we’re diving deep into how to make that transition as smooth as butter.

We’ll explore how the shift from laid-back summer vibes to the structured school routine can feel like jumping from a cozy hammock into a cold pool. From tackling morning meltdowns to navigating the chaos of new classrooms, we’ve got practical tips to help everyone find their groove again.

Timestamps:

(01:36) - Welcome

(05:26) - Story Time!

(11:35) - Get Our Of Your Mind & Into Your Life Book

(20:06) - Morning Routines & Managing Chaos

(35:44) - The Drop Off

(48:38) - Talking Through The Steps

(54:54) - When Routines Come In Handy

(01:03:12) - Keeping The Language Simple

(01:12:06) - Setting Up Before Back To School Season

(01:18:35) - Closing

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Elemenoe Transition Toolkit - Back to School edition
• The Kissing Hand by Aubrey Penn
• Get Out Of Your Mind and Into Your Life by Steven C. Hayes

****

Visit The Sensory Supply for the best in sensory products to soothe, stimulate, and inspire.

Learn about our clinic Elemenoe where we work to reach milestones together through speech, language, behaviour & learning.

Visit neurodiversallyspeaking.com for all podcast & show info:

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Contact:

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And so let's dive into why back to school can be really hard, I would say, even for kids that are really excited to go back to school. Right.

Also, during the summer, we see, like, more access to preferred activities, maybe, maybe a little bit more choice in what they're doing, maybe more flexible mornings, generally less academic demands. And then school starts, and then you're in this, like, new environment.

You gotta wake up earlier, you gotta follow all these instructions, you gotta get out the door because I gotta get to work. And then a lot less control over your day. Right.

So that's like, a lot of things. Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna Behavior.

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shauna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes, sometimes be discussed, suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with them to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversallySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at [email protected] Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Welcome back to Neurodiversally Speaking, the podcast where we explore communication, of course, behavior and neurodiversity with curiosity and heart. I'm Brittany. I'm a speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna, behaviour analyst. Today we are talking about Back to School, but hopefully in, like, sort of a different perspective or a different way than you've listened to before.

Yeah, exactly. Back to school gets talked about like it's one single event, like a time. And certainly it's marketed that way.

And like the ads for back to school, etc, you, like, buy your backpack, you pack the lunch, you take the, like, first day photo with that cute little board that everybody does, and then you're good and off you go. And for, like, lots of us, it's a mix of, like, the thrill of Buying new school supplies and I can like smell those new pencils, maybe a new outfit.

But also like a little bit of like, first day jitters, like going back for that first day for sure.

And like, as a parent, I also have jitters.

Right.

It's like a whole new routine I got to get back into. And I think what we want to chat about today is it's not like a single transition. There's so many small moments.

And so, especially for neurodivergent kids, it can feel like a hundred transitions in that single day.

And it actually is. Yes. So many little ones. So we'll talk all about that.

Because back to school it includes things like waking up a little bit earlier or even just like getting back on a waking up schedule and routine. Getting dressed in like less flexible clothing or different clothing. I'm not wearing my PJs or my bathing suit all summer. I had a change out of that.

Eating breakfast on like a more specific schedule and packing a backpack. All kinds of things. I could list off like a thousand things. Exactly.

I think when we think about that back to school transition, you think about like sort of that final moment of that goodbye.

Yeah, yeah.

But there's so many transitions sort of leading up to. And then also after that that is all lumped into this one transition often.

Yeah, exactly. And then it's not just the first day usually too.

You know, with typical and neurotypical, neurodivergent and neurotypical children, it can take like months sometimes for that transition to kind of feel less harsh or abrasive. Yeah. And so, you know, all naturally, like, some kids are going to struggle with a massive transition and it can be, like I said, a few weeks.

But the thing is, like, we can't just say that this is like all this is a behavior problem. Right. And that's one of the things that we really want to hone in on today is not like, oh, my child's like, like having a real hard time. This is.

What's this behavior that we've got to fix? This is a problem. It can be a transition problem. It can be. We'll talk about this like a communication or language problem or difference.

A c. Sensory difference, an executive functioning problem. It can be like from anxiety and so. And then sometimes it's like a mix of all of those things.

Exactly. I would say usually. Right.

Like as a behavior analyst, I think one of the things we try to do is like make things into like clean cut functions like access, attention, escape. And now that I'm like Further in my career, I find that almost everything has multiple components to it, you know? Yes, you always say that.

Which makes sense because we're not all just like, living in one little box.

Yes. And these are looking at some of the other things that go along in our brain too. Right.

In the neuroscience of how a being neurodivergent can impact transitions and then how just like several transitions back to back can also impact how the brain's kind of processing the world.

Yeah.

So the angle we want to take today is not how are we going to make that first day smooth, but how do we scaffold that transition back to school in a way that's compassionate, practical, and actually helpful. And so what I mean by that is, like, how are we going to set the day up for success? You know? And as.

As a behavior analyst, we look at antecedent strateg. These are things that happen before the behavior. I love antecedent strategies. The opposite would be consequence strategies.

So things we're doing after the behavior. And so this episode is really about what we can do to kind of try and set up for a more successful or smoother first day. And I was gonna share.

I had a tough transition today with my own little dude. He is three, generally, like, very outgoing. He's like a big personality. He's not really.

Yeah, he's not us, like, scared or like, nervous to go new places, etc. And I dropped him off at a Z care provider who he's been going to for several years now. My other son went there.

Like, he's very familiar with this place, never really has a problem. But I only do his drop offs on Mondays and Fridays. My husband does the other ones.

And so sometimes, like, every once in a while, he'll be like, oh, mom, stay. But it's not usually too bad.

And then today he's just like, he starts balling and like, I'm in the moment with him trying to figure out, like, what am I going to do? You know, I get down on his level. I try tried, like, talking to him. We tried talking about things he could do.

I tried getting him engaged in activities, like, all sort of my strategies, and nothing was working right. And so eventually, unfortunately, I did have to just leave him crying because I had to go. Yeah.

And so now I'm like, looking back on the moment and that's where certainly was not a great transition, but I don't want this to happen again. And so when I look back at sort of what happened in that transition, I lingered too long.

Me and his daycare provider were chit chatting for a little bit, which was needed.

Yeah.

But again I was, we were just kind of standing there and so then he had time to sort of like sit and like think. And then as well, there was two other kids getting dropped off and they were both crying and didn't want to leave their moms.

And then one of them ended up transitioning. The other one was still having a rough time. So I feel like the environment just like wasn't really conducive to me leaving with a happy child today.

And so as a behavior analyst, I think I've identified some of those like factors that probably contributed to it. I probably, I'm not going to change anything about my drop off on Monday.

I'll most likely just like drop and go as I usually do and maybe be like a little bit more thoughtful about not chit chatting with the daycare provider. But otherwise I think it's probably a one off and had to do with like all these different environmental factors. Right.

And I would say that is different than what we're talking about today. It is back to school transition.

But the first thing, like I said, how's your morning? When we got together this morning, and you're like, oh man, it was so hard with your son this morning.

And I was the first thing that we did, I would say it was like, get curious, right. I was like, oh, like how do you sleep last night? And you're like, oh, I think it was because of this, this.

And so we're not like, oh man, what an like obviously we're not blaming him for like crying. You know, you always say like, don't blame the organism, blame the environment.

And then here in that you're living through that example of like, I think it was the environment because so and so had this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. And then that's why he was probably.

Crying and having a hard time with that transition.

Exactly.

So anyone who's listened to the podcast, you know, we're both moms of little ones and we are sort of like giving our thoughts today from a clinical perspective, from a research perspective, perspective, but also very much from our own hearts and our own challenges with transitions with our own kids. So certainly I've had a very difficult back to school transition with my own little one over the last two years.

I do think next year is, or this coming year is going to be better. I feel like, you know, it gets a little bit easier.

And so we're really talking today about like how back to school, though, can be hard, especially for our neurodivergent learners because of some of these, like, hidden transitions that can contribute to all of the extra struggles.

And then it can lead to things like maybe even school refusal or like those challenges in the classroom or like those after school meltdowns because they've been masking all day. Like there's other layers to it for sure.

Exactly. And like the repeated exposure to a bad transition is so hard on everyone. Right.

Like the parent dreads the transition, the child's dreading the transition, you know.

True.

So I think there's a lot of factors to think about here. What we hope to leave you with today is some practical ABA and SLP informed strategies.

We also use acceptance and commitment therapy lens within our approach often.

And so what we hope is to give you some like, really great strategies to help you prepare for this upcoming season so that there's more connection and hopefully a little bit less stress.

Yeah, exactly. And like let's, as we usually do, if we bring up an acronym or something, can we define what is act? So acceptance and commitment therapy.

Yeah, exactly. It's what I think about it as is like living towards your values.

It helps us make room for hard feelings and still moving towards those things that matter to us. So it's not about trying to avoid things, it's about teaching your children to be, I would say more like resilient.

So instead of saying like, don't be nervous, there's nothing to be worried about, you know, and like, again, even as a grown up, like that feels dismissive to me.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and yet that's like what.

We say all the time.

Yes.

Like we were sort of brought up that way. Yeah. Don't cry. Exactly. Sad. Yes. Don't be nervous, you're fine.

Exactly. And that's why I really love acceptance and commitment therapy.

And I truthfully stumbled upon it early in my behavior analysis career when I was in like a pretty anxious place. You know, I had just started my first business and was feeling these like symptoms of anxiety.

And then I read get out of your mind and into your life. I highly recommend, if you're interested in it, it's a great self help book. And it like showed me the power that your brain has over your action.

And how by more, instead of trying to avoid those hard feelings, like being like, no, I can do this and like working through it. So anyway, as that's a side tangent. Sorry.

As a parent, I'm like extremely in person, just like very passionate about this idea of tying things back into our values as well as moving through those hard moments. So instead of that, like, don't be nervous, we might say it makes sense that you're feeling nervous. Starting school is a big transition.

We can do this together there.

It's funny, actually. Yesterday something happened and I was like, really ruminating over it and I was like, obsessing over this thing that happened.

And I almost texted you, Shauna, give me an act thing to just tell me to, like, move on. Yes, yes. My thoughts are not real. Like, what's the.

What do I need to, like, blow.

My thought into a bubble and, like,.

Blow it away or pop it or something and like, it seems so silly. Like when I was reading the. This get out of your mind into your life a long time ago. Yeah, it was.

It would say things like, tell your brain, like, thanks for the thought brain, let's move along. And I was like, well, that's not gonna work. And it's actually amazing. Your brain does kind of take the fe feedback, which is fascinating.

So funny. But then you use that with your own kids and we do all the time, right? And you said like, oh, your brain's on fire.

So it's not like, oh, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, your brain is just on fire right now. And so I love that, like, break some of the analogies that come out of that.

Yeah. Like externalizing, really, the feelings. And Even with my 3 year old today, right.

Like, I'm trying to, I don't know, trying to throw everything out there, all my strategies to get out the door. And so he's only three. I was like, your brain is telling you that you're not safe. Right. But you're safe right now. You come here every day.

Mummy will be back. Go and find something that you want to do. You know, tell your brain I'm safe. Right. And so we. I try and do it and I think it helps.

Like, my other son is quite sensitive. And so I find if you sort of externalize and you talk about, oh, your brain is doing that right.

Then it helps externalize the problem rather than blaming him for doing something. Right. And so anyways, those are some of the reasons that I really, like, act. And then it fits in really well. Transitions for sure.

Because a lot of the time parents end up with good intentions. You know, like, you're just trying to help them, dismissing it and saying things like, you're okay and like, trying to push aside the feelings.

And I think what we're missing there is that the goal is not that we don't have big feelings. The goal is that we can support the child through the feelings. And I want to do that. Right, so that you can do hard things.

Yes, exactly. And I was going to add that I actually have a note on my iPhone with act phrases on the go.

We did this as a clinic exercise, I think, two years ago or something. And I made it and I kept it for the back to school transition because it was so difficult, especially for my little one.

But also I was anxious because they were anxious. So it was like this layering thing. And I think, like, act fits in so well with those transitions.

So I just looked it up here on my phone and I've got like, all the different sort of like, present moment is one of them. And it's like, I really like how you stayed in the present moment right now and you're letting. Not letting the other stuff bug you.

Or something like that.

And so I wrote down some of my favorite ones or, like, tying it into their values. Like, do you value learning? Okay, what do we need to do to, like, achieve that goal? And, you know, hopefully their answer will be yes.

Yeah. But I think that's also, like, a really good point. Right. Like, back to school is so hard on parents too. Right. Like, I've got to get to work.

I've got all this stuff I have to do, which, like, maybe was a little bit more lax in the summer or we had different routines, regardless. And so as a parent, I'm probably overwhelmed.

Yes.

And so by having these phrases, either that you've, like, taken the time to write out, so they're like, maybe fresh on your brain, or you've read them in the morning, you know, helps you be ready too, because we are also overwhelmed. And so you might not be doing your best.

Oh, yeah.

And coming out with, like, the, you know, I always think, like, those Instagram advice and the phrases, like, it's stressful as a parent because I want to do a good job. But then sometimes in the moment, I'm.

Like, ah, what was that tip I.

Was supposed to do?

Yeah, exactly. What am I supposed to say? So, yeah, I literally, like, memorized like, one or two of those with my kid.

And then like, I'm at school, we're going to drop off, and I'm like, okay, I know I've got to say this. And for my kids, it's usually like, I've seen you do really hard things. This feels hard today. I know you can do this. And then stop talking about it.

And then I'm gonna say mommy loves you all day long. And like mommy will be back.

Back.

Like right, yeah, exactly.

You know, it's.

So anyways, we've both kind of gone on a tangent here, but I think it shows that like, we're using this in our own lives too, because we really truly believe in it. And so act fits so well in these transitions because. Or like four transitions.

Because it's not like we're saying like, oh, you're okay, or like, don't have these big feelings. That's not the goal. The goal is like, how can we support you through that? So we're acknowledging, but then we're still like moving through it. It.

Right, exactly.

And so let's dive into why back to school can be really hard from a behavioral lens, I would say, even for kids that are really excited to go back to school. Right. And this is where it might come as a surprise. Then when the transition doesn't go well, you're like, what? You're so excited.

Why is this so hard? Right. But it is like a pretty big shift. No matter how structured your summer was or how loose it was. Right. It's not the same thing.

And so potentially you're leaving this flexible and reinforcing environment into this one that you don't prefer as much. That's one theory.

But there are lots of kids that look forward to going back to school also during the summer we see like, they have more access to preferred activities, maybe maybe a little bit more choice in what they're doing, maybe more flexible mornings, certainly, or generally less academic demands. And then school starts and then you're in this like new environment.

You gotta wake up earlier, you gotta follow all these instructions, you gotta get out the door, cuz I gotta get to work. And then you're at school and you gotta sit for longer. There's lots of little mini transitions throughout the day. You've got like shared attention.

There's 30 kids now and one teacher. You've got like the interplay of all these new kids that are around and then a lot less control over your day. Right. So that's like a lot of things.

So many things. And I don't know about you, but like with our school, we don't find out who the teacher's going to be until the day of sometimes or the day before.

And like, oh my gosh, they just want to know, do I have a friend in my class?

Do I know anyone?

And so there's a lot of those kind of elements too where like it's just unknown. And then everyone's kind of anxious.

Yes, for sure.

And so from an SLP lens though, like I wanted to bring up that there's so many like language demands that come with this back to school transition. And so at school, you know, you brought up so many different things and I totally agree.

But at like with language too there's like all these instruction following now that we have to do in these multi step layered communication. You also have to be able to follow the classroom routine and we talk about this a lot at the clinic too is like be able to learn from others.

So if the teacher is giving a direction to John here, like is sue sitting beside him also going to pick up that instruction? Because sometimes it's not talking directly to you. You got to like learn from what other kids are learning. And so that's like soul layered.

And then interpreting social language is really tricky for some of our neurodivergent learners. Things like asking for help, like I know you want help here, but they often just don't ask for help.

They're, you know, not being able to answer sometimes simple or simple or complex questions. Time based language is really difficult. Oh my gosh, there's so many things, right?

Like, and then even just sometimes the background noise and the overstimulating environment can make that like following verbal instructions harder. So oh my gosh, there's so many, so many things.

And it's a long time, right? Like you're at school for hours with all of those different things kind of being thrown at you all day.

And if you're neurodivergent processing each of those things is sort of challenging on its own. And then you've got a hundred of those things coming at you. Gotcha. Yes.

And so that can be a big change certainly from the summer if they weren't in like maybe a camp program or something like that, then sort of coming back into this chaotic environment is like ah, this is overwhelming for my brain.

Exactly. And we didn't mention it but like outside to inside even is a really big transition for some kids.

Like we spend a lot of time outdoors which feels like being in nature is quite calming for a lot of people. And then now you're like inside in a room, you know, and anyways. Oh, that just changed. Changes.

Exactly.

And then often we're moving from things we like into things we don't like and back into things we like and back into things we don't like, you know, sort of throughout the day. And so in our we have a older episode on transitions. And we don't want to give the same strategies from that one.

And this is, I would say, more structured and tailored to the school environment. But we talked about this as moving from like lean to rich or rich to lean conditions.

That's what we call it behaviorally, lean being things that you don't like as much. So there's not as much reinforcement. That's why they call it lean and then rich. There's lots of reinforcement.

Right.

And that sometimes it's nice to think about a hierarchy here. And don't go from like, let's say you watch cartoons before you go to school. Don't go right from the cartoons to like, get in the car.

Yeah, that's like a pretty stark transition. Right. Or within the school day, if they're having trouble.

Like, think I would think about some of those transitions and what they are being required to transition from and what that looks like. And I think we will talk about that a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And as with the parent, you're like, no, we gotta go, we gotta get out. You know, it's that time.

And then you're heightened. They're heightened. It's certainly. I try my best to have a very calm morning. It's like, very important to me that.

And you and I are lucky in that we make our schedules. And so I try not to book anything until 9:15. So I've always got like a nice buffer.

But it still happens to us, you know, where like every once in a while, like, both of us are like yelling or crying or who knows what's happening and we're just like rolling out the door. Exactly. It's like there's been a miscommunication here. I missed an opportunity. Here we are.

Exactly. And so what you're talking about there is that, like, you know, shifting attention.

Like, if your kids are watching Bluey before they go to school, they gotta shift that and then regulate those emotions when you're like, I don't wanna do that. So now I have to regulate that. And that's challenging for kids, of course. And then managing those expectations, leaving something they like.

Which you were just talking about with that rich to lean stuff. Yeah, that's a lot before we just even get out the door in the morning.

So I did wanna mention that we have a transition tool kit specifically for a back to school edition. And we'll be talking about a lot of those strategies today. But go ahead and like, check out that resource.

It's free, it's downloadable, it's on our website. We'll link it in the show notes. But I will look through that toolkit myself.

Yes.

Before my kids go back to school and like, oh, yeah, remember these things. I know to do it. But now I'm like, remember it.

And I think there's printouts, Right. Of the strategies and stuff. Like, if you need a first send or some of the things we'll talk about today, then those are there, too.

You don't have to recreate the wheel. Yeah, exactly. And it's free.

Yeah. So.

Right. So if we see that stalling, crying, refusal, negotiations, running away, shutting down, melting down, we're getting curious just like this morning.

Yes, exactly.

Unfortunately, right. When we're in that moment, it's really hard. Right? It's hard.

And like I said, like, I ended up leaving my son today because there was really nothing I could have done other than take him home. And that was just, like, not an option for us. And I want him on the podcast.

Yeah.

He'd be very cute. And so we. What I'm doing now is, like, I got to kind of give up on that, you know, Like, I can't improve that transition. It's.

We were in a tricky spot, but I am getting curious about what happened. Right. And so same with. For us getting ready for school, you know, I'm thinking about some of the transitions leading up to school.

What's going well here, what's not going well when we have to get out the door, and some of those things ahead of time. And then I'm going to, like, sort of ask myself some of these questions, too, ahead of time. What are we. What is our transition plan?

What does that look like for them? What. What skills does this require? Like, do they need to be able to get dressed on their own? Do they need to pick out their outfits?

And then what kind of supports might be missing in this plan? And that's where.

When I say antecedent strategies, it's really that getting curious before the behavior happens and thinking about, okay, where do I think there might be some things that are going to come up? Right.

And then are we expecting them to do this all independently or with support? Because then in the mornings, you know, this is like this. His sort of hidden transition.

This morning routine is like, we're also trying to get ourselves ready.

Exactly.

And so, like, how much am I helping you? But then, like, this is a silly example, but my girls this week went to the hairdresser, and then they both had, like, really cool hairdos.

And so usually in the morning they. They don't really, like, care about their hair. They're just, like, brushing it, and then we're ready to go.

Well, this week my youngest had to have these fancy braid curl things. I don't know if I showed you. It was very, very cute. She loved it, and so she needed that.

And then my older one was like, had this, like, Farrah Faucet almost like, curl thing.

It was very cute.

So then this one morning, I'm like, doing her hair, and then her hair. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't.

Do all of that anyways.

Silly example.

But then you can think, like, your nervous system is sort of reacting to that. Like, oh, God, I didn't really plan this into my day.

Yes.

You know, we got to get out the door. I don't really have time to do your hair. And then I'm already anxious. So then if they come to me and say, like, I need my hair done.

Yeah.

My reaction could be, I don't have time for that. And then they're crying. I feel bad because I yelled and now no one's leaving the house on time because we're all dysregulated. Nothing went smoothie.

Exactly.

And so my.

My youngest was like, I'm sorry, Mama. I didn't. I didn't, like, say that quite thing, but I was like, okay, well, mom's.

Just got to get ready.

I said something like that. And she was like, I'm sorry, you can just leave it.

And I was like, no, no, we're not going to fix your hair done.

It's all good. You know, we can figure this out together. And I'm like, we're all on the same team. Is something that I've started saying too.

Like, we're all in this together. We got this. So anyways, it's just like a simple sort of a thing that I was thinking about with this morning routine as sort of our first step.

And then I was also reflecting on an example. A mom just this week was talking to us about one of the hardest transitions she was going through was the shift in the clothing.

And so you had just mentioned, like, oh, are they getting dressed and are they picking out their outfits or whatnot? But with this specific mom of a neurodivergent child, she was saying that, like, the.

Her guy kind of got used to the routine and was wearing, like, shorts and T shirts all the time. And then the transition into the different type of clothing, and so he's going to school maybe, and like, no, like, I wear Shorts.

Like, I've been doing this forever.

I wear shorts.

And like, the weather turns. And now she's genuinely worried about him being freezing.

Right.

But he's like, nope, this is what I wear. Because we did a whole season of that. So I was thinking that's like, just another interesting thing is, and you and.

I have both had different experiences with our kids too, about their particular clothing preferences. Like right now, my oldest, his socks have to be like, just right. And so I have to put them on.

I have to line up the seam like perfectly on his foot or else it's like, like he will be like, so dysregulated so fast if this seam is not right.

Yeah.

And so for myself, it's like worth it to put in the 30 seconds to put his socks on and line everything up.

Yeah.

Because then the rest of our morning goes smoothly.

Be so anyways, I feel like within mornings there's so many little transitions and figuring out what routine is going to work best sometimes takes some trial and error.

Ye, like, obviously we got to wake up, we got to get out of bed, go to the bathroom, brush our teeth, get dressed, eat breakfast, get our lunch ready to go, put on our shoes, whatever else we might be bringing, leave the house, get in the car, go to the bus, whatever it is, say goodbye to the parent and then you're there.

So many things. You've done 100 things before you got to school that day.

Exactly.

For sure.

And then we see, like, what if they didn't get a good sleep? The sensory discomfort with clothing. Like I was saying, sometimes my younger one, like, doesn't eat breakfast.

Luckily he's still in daycare and so I know he's going to eat like, or he could eat whenever.

Yeah.

So less worrisome, but still all these instructions, the time pressure and parent urgency, difficult shifting from, like, home life back to school life. And then uncertainty about what the school day looks like.

Oh my gosh, for sure. Like, they really have no idea what to expect.

No.

And then we, I don't know, hard preparing them. Like I said, sometimes you don't even know who the teacher is until that morning. And I don't know who the teacher is going to be.

Like, I don't know if they're going to be nice or friendly or what their style's like. And oh my gosh, so many things.

And like, certainly don't know what classroom they're in or if they're in a portable or like, you know, all those, like, little details matter to them and then like you brought up friends too really matter. Who am I going to see there? You know, am I going to be alone? Yes. And so it's like so much to think about.

It is. And then language wise, again, like mornings can become very verbal very quickly. Like, get dressed.

Did you brush your teeth? Where's your water bottle?

Why can't I find the lid for this? Did you put your shoes on?

Not those shoes.

You got to get your indoor shoes, not your outdoor shoes. And like there is so much language involved in getting ready too.

And like, even if every like one step instruction makes sense, putting it all together can be really overwhelming.

For sure. Exactly.

So yeah, I, I know, like, we've talked about this too, like trying to keep calm in the morning. And so I know for the. When my kids first started going to school, I feel like I was very like anxious getting out the door.

And like my eldest developed this really like intense, I do not want to be late. And I noticed some severe anxiety over getting there on time.

And so this past like, or this past year, we end up walking to school like probably about five minutes earlier. Like just as a rule, like we're leaving and she's already down at the door maybe 10 minutes earlier than we did last year. Which is interesting.

Like, I'm impressed that she can do this. But I also was thinking about how I changed the way I talk to my kids. And so it used to be like,.

Ah, we gotta go.

Like we don't wanna be late. And now I just have these cute little phrases like 8, 24 out the door.

Instead of saying like, let's go or I'll be like 8, 23, you and me, let's have these cute little rhymes.

That we made up.

That's very. So then I'm trying to like make them aware of the time and saying.

Like, we gotta go.

But it's like in a more fun way.

Exactly. Right. Such a great strategy.

Because if we're yelling, let's go, let's go, their nervous system is responding to that, ah, fighter flight, fight or flight, all flight, you know. Whereas if we're in this together and we're 8:24, the door. So fun.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I love it. Thanks. Because as you mentioned, like we are so stressed, so our nervous system can be hot.

And so coming in with some of these like simple little strategies that we can add into our day can be really helpful so that the child's nervous system can stay calm. We might not be calm, but that's like our job, right, Is to Model the calm as much as we can. And I'm certainly not perfect.

And then the other thing that I always like to point out is like the. Often the kids don't really understand the stressors that are stressing us out. No, like my kids don't care if I go to work on time.

No.

Mine are younger, so they really like don't really understand how the world works.

Yeah, yeah.

But there's like a.

When we talk about that acceptance and commitment therapy approach, like it's really important to me that we get out the door because I know you should be at school on time. I have a meeting to get to, so I've got to go. You know, and those are the things that sort of change the outcome here for my children.

Doesn't really matter. Like you were saying, your oldest does care to be late. My son definitely does not. He would love to be late every day.

That would be his dream dream.

You know, he doesn't really feel the impact of being laid. And so I need to think about it from his perspective and tie it into his values. Right. What is something that matters to you in this transition?

And I really think in my. He's almost six now. His case is it really is like that calm energy is something that he appreciates.

And so usually I'll try and talk to him ahead of time and just be like, hey, here's some like points where I know we're gonna write into some problems. Let's talk about a strategy to work through those in the moment.

And then in the moment try and remind him because yeah, he really like, he's fine not to go to school. He doesn't really enjoy going. He's find it. Like I can tie it up.

Usually like his values are seeing his friends maybe playing a specific game they're doing that week at school or something like that. But he certainly does not care about the traffic or my meetings. And so if we rethink things from their point of view, that's a good.

Perspective though because if you're coming in going, the traffic's going to be bad. I to meet Britney and record a podcast at 9am like, he's like, great for you, mom. Like it's not really important to me so long.

I'm not going to change my behavior. Right. Because I don't. I just like really make. It's so abstract, it makes no sense, you know? Right. Whereas I'm sure like your older daughter. Right.

Could sort of like process all of that and like maybe has that perspective taking ability to Sort of shift and modulate her own behavior because she knows that it'll have an impact on you. My 6 year old is sweet and thoughtful and that sort of thing, but he doesn't have that ability right now. He's still too young.

And then certainly my 3 year old does not care about what I need to do.

No, no, no.

He's very all about him. And so he should be friends. Like, it's developmentally normal.

And then if you have a neurodivergent child, we know that perspective taking is extra hard. And so I'm going to have to spell that out for you. I'm going to spell out sort of what's going on here, you know, and tie it into their values.

Because again, with neurodivergent individuals, we often see maybe more of a. A dysregulated nervous system that can look as defiant. Right.

But really, it's like the lack of understanding of other people's perspectives and some of that social language that could be at play there. And so by thinking about it from their perspective and tying it into their values, I think you'll see better success in your routine. Routine.

So what we think is creating that morning Runway. Runway and not a morning race like that sort of slow pace to things where we've, like, prepared the night before. I've thought ahead of time. Okay.

Where do I imagine our friction points here? And what are some strategies I might take? Yeah, I know something that I think you like to do is, like, reducing those choices in the morning.

Like, can we pick out your outfit tonight? But my kids don't care about what they wear. But I think you do.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially when I know it's going to be tricky like this. Today for me, this morning was sort of like a normal day for my kids.

So I didn't pick out their outfits, but, like, before going back to school, that. That first day or even that first week, we're probably laying everything out.

And I noticed because I've done that sometimes both my kids will lay their clothes on the floor. And my youngest is so cute. She'll have like, her T shirt in the right place and then her pants in the right place.

And then she'll put her little socks right in the right place. Like there's a body on the floor.

Nice.

Not just like a little pile. Very cute. But, yeah. And so we sort of like practice that.

And then I think they now do it because they know, like, okay, this is actually going to help me, I think, feel like implicitly they know that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so doing some of those things to, like, kind of clear the clutter in the morning.

Like, we're not then having a meltdown over, like, my jeans are in the dryer or whatever.

Right, exactly. Another thing is using visuals or checklists, if they're helpful. Like some. I have, like, my husband's home with me in the morning.

And so we do have, like, all hands on deck. But like, some of my friends, they're alone in the morning.

And so when you have two kids, you probably need one of them to be doing something on their own, you know, And I'm thinking of my oldest. He can get dressed on his own and mostly stay focused, but I would say at least 50% of the time he forgets to put on his underwear.

And so then I have to go and undo the whole thing. And so I'm thinking a visual schedule of, like, first this, then this and this. And this might be just like a good prompt for him.

Yeah.

To remind him, don't forget your underwear. Yes. And so visuals or checklists can be really helpful.

Or like, and you could get, like, into the minutiae of like, shirt, underwear, shorts, or get dressed, brush your teeth, like, sort of depending on which your child gravitates to.

For sure. And for your child thinking about that, maybe he just needs the reminder for the undies, like.

Yeah, underwear first. Yes, true. Keep it simple.

Yeah, exactly. He doesn't need. Because he knows to put on a shirt and socks and all the other things he's forgetting. He's going on the list, everything. Yes.

He's also a PJ guy. Right.

So that makes sense. He would, like, love to be a.

Romper kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah.

Like his mama. Yes, exactly.

Takes after me.

I love it. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

So I think the visual. And then I think you brought up a good point there too. Like with the underwear idea is that it doesn't need to be complicated. Right.

You don't need to. You don't need to download our transition toolkit and print it out and laminate it and do all those things.

If you have something that works for you, you can draw. Like, I'm not a great drawer, but I will draw. And my kids know this symbol is supposed to be a pair of underwear, you know?

Exactly. And then it could be a post it note on his dresser and then when he's getting dressed. Yeah, perfect. Well, try that tomorrow.

Let me know how it's going.

Yes, we'll see.

Okay.

Also from your perspective, I think keeping language, like short and Consistent. And I would obviously agree with that.

Exactly.

And so instead of saying things like, okay, get up, I need you to go get dressed, brush your teeth, go to the bathroom, and meet me downstairs. Right. That's like sort of a lot of things is I might just start with one. For some kids, giving all that might be fine.

I'm not saying never give long and strength instructions, but short instructions can help sometimes avoid, like, that overwhelm of, oh, God, there's so many things I have to do.

Well, exactly. And that's such a multi component instruction that, you know, that's gonna be challenging for sure. Okay, so we talked about that morning routine.

Lots of different pieces in there that are really challenging before we even get out the door. And then next we'll talk about that second transition, which is that drop off and separation so tricky. So it can be totally emotional for everyone.

Like, I know my kids both, like I mention, really struggled with this. And it, to me as a mom, felt like a lot longer than it was struggling for their peers, for sure. And I would say, like, went on for months.

Like, I know my little one in kindergarten, it was like six months of very challenging transitions. So hard and so emotional. But like I said, I know you've said the same with your kids.

Like, sometimes those transitions are good and sometimes they're tricky. But I was thinking of your oldest. And what does he say? Drop off.

What is your thing? He always says, well, he's changed, like, in the last six months. But in jk, yeah, he would be like, it's just better if you go, mom.

But if you don't look at me, just, like, walk and keep going. Don't look back. And I was like, okay, well, that's really insightful of you. I will do that. And so that was a strategy that we tried, for sure.

So I would say similarly, when he started jk, the transitions lost, like, the tough transitions. And he's not one to, like, throw a big tantrum or have a big meltdown or have a big reaction.

Right.

And I feel like, like, that's like, worse for me as a mother. Like, I just feel like you can see that he doesn't feel well.

Like, you know, his body is, like, not well, and he's sad, but he doesn't want anyone to know anyway. So I would leave crying. He would be crying on the inside. Yes, yes. And so another we. Our first strategy that we did is I changed it.

So my husband did the drop off.

Oh, yeah, right.

And my oldest did say that it was easier to Say goodbye to dad. And hard to say goodbye to me. I can't remember his exact wording. It was very funny at the time.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but I think, like, so true. Right. Um, and so we switched and I had my husband do the drop offs for JK for probably that month.

Right.

Um, that way he got used to a. A positive drop off and that's what I wanted. Right. I wanted to have a good drop off where he felt confident and thought, I can do this.

And then once that was going well, then I started picking up some of those drop offs again. And then they were going okay for a little bit. And then again I would see him get sad.

And then that's when I was like, what do you think we should do? I leave crying. You're sad, right? What can we do here? And that's when he was like, just don't look at me, just keep.

And then now we have like a consistent routine as well. You say goodbye, have a good day. And then he meets me at the fence, we have one more hug and then I go. And so we keep that consistent and.

You've made a routine out of it, which we'll talk about. But that's like creating your own whatever that looks like.

Your routine is very different than mine with my kids because we've like kind of crafted them individually for what they need. Yeah.

And the strategies are going to be different, you know, and like my older one is like quite introspective and like thinks about himself or thinks about like, you know, how the world's working and that sort of thing often. Whereas other kids, you might not be able to get that sort of like feedback from that to know what they want.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And so, yeah, there's like, with that drop off, there's so much like we're just talking about the separation anxiety there.

But there's also that like uncertainty. Like what is even things look like once I go through that door, like, what's going to happen in there? And we're not certainly going.

Like we can't go in the school with them. I can't keep holding their hand. Like you said, there's drop off of the gate and then what does it look like?

And then it's just like sensory overwhelming. They don't even know the teacher yet usually in that beginning part. Yeah.

And then there's also, interestingly I was thinking about, you always talk about like learning history and so like often crying leads to more parent time or like mom comes and cuddles me or like if I'm really distressed, we might even just like mom might say, okay, let's go home. And so then that's probably not happening, happening at school because we can't.

And this is, I do think, a very interesting side conversation about what to do in those moments. Right.

Because again, as a behavior analyst, if crying at drop off results in reinforcement, and in this case the reinforcement is more time with my mom because I don't want to say goodbye.

Yeah.

Then we are reinforcing that behavior. Right, Right. But at the same time I'm also not just going to be like, oh, screw it. Yeah, see ya.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, and so I think that's where like more of this like neuro affirming care and child centered care has really shifted a lot of the lenses that we take to solving these types of problems. And that's where I think you and I always say that's when we get curious. And that's when like this transition is probably not my best, you know.

And I'm going to set up the next one better and try and come up with some different strategies.

But if your child does have sort of a long history of hard drop offs, I would sort of look at some of the contingencies there and what you might change. And so in my case, like, like I changed and had my husband do it.

Yeah.

You know, that was a really simple switch for us. Other people probably don't have those options. And so then that's when we might think about some other like changing up our drop off routine.

And I feel like you went through a lot of different trial and error strategies that drop off.

Right.

Like you in the end, I think ended up transitioning to a, a specific person at the school always. Right. It was like a handoff.

Yeah. Last year. Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

And then that person in her would like walk around the school or something like that.

But I think you try like you had, I think she had a job she was doing for a little bit when she got there and certain things like worked for a little period of time and then they changed. So certainly working with the school can be a really nice strategy too. And seeing what you can come up with there with like buddy systems.

And I certainly think like if we call it anxiety, I'm putting quotations around that. It really is like that nervous system response to all of those things that we've talked about. You know, it could be about leaving mom.

Yeah.

But it could also be about all of the other things going on at school. It's loud here. Who are these people? Where am I going? What's happening here? You know?

Yeah. And that's what we were talking about before is like taking their perspective on it and saying like. Yeah, actually this is really distressing.

Yeah. If I had to go, like if you. For some reason I had a ticket to go to like some sort of gala or something. I knew no one there.

Oh yeah, right.

Or like I don't know what's happening. I've never been to a gala. No idea what they do there. Yeah, I would not want to go.

No, I'm good. Exactly. No, totally, you're right.

And like I have no idea what it's going to look like and I gotta probably like do the same thing for eight hours and I'm not gonna see somebody like I like or no.

Yeah. For some people that's like energizing. Yeah. You know, like going to like and like a networking event. I. That's not my thing. Right. Don't really.

I'll do it if I have to, but I don't really like look forward to doing it. It does not energize me.

But I am older than these children, so my brain's more developed and so I'm able to name those things and know that that's what's happening in my body and then also persevere, you know, like either because I've committed, like some sort of work thing is going to make me follow through, or I've like, I don't know, bought a ticket to the Scala for some reason. So I also care about the cause or whatever and that's going to help me follow through.

Right.

But for kids, they just don't have those skills yet. And that's why we got to be there for them.

And there's no real choice either.

No go to school.

Right.

And so that's part of it and.

That's where the values piece has to come back in. Right. And I think one thing that we think about often is. Or like I find that people are quick to like punish and take away stuff.

Yeah, true.

Right. But we're not as quick to reinforce things or add on things to make things easier or see things from the kids perspective in that. Yeah.

This is actually so much that you have to like go through and then also think like, okay, what's the why for you?

You.

Why do you go to school?

Right, Right.

And. And some of it is a big like a long game. You know, you're going to school now so that one day you can get a Good job.

You know, and for my kids, I sort of keep it that simple. But it really, it's like we want to tie it to the big picture so that we are building up some of that like internal motivation.

Right.

But there has to be also, like, they're just young and so there has to be like another motivator. And same for myself. You know, I'm not going to do something if I don't want to do it.

And as an adult, we have a lot of free will and choice and as kids they just don't.

Right, exactly. And so coming back to it, just like it's not, we're not blaming them as kids. This is not like manipulation if they don't want to go.

Like, it's genuinely distress likely if you're having these difficult transitions.

Exactly. And so some of the strategies that we tried out, like we said, some of them are getting creative with like drop off routines, you know, using that.

I think a predictable routine can be really nice. Nice.

And overall, I would say keeping things predictable and following a routine certainly for children that are delayed in their language can be really, really helpful because we find that they're often our neurodivergent friends are good at picking up on patterns.

Oh, yeah, right.

And so they know like, okay, we do this and we do this, then we do this and then they can follow those instructions because really they're following the routine.

Yeah.

So the more that we can keep things routine, that can be helpful.

Exactly.

What are some of the things that you've done for drop offs? I know you've done like for like goodbye routines.

Yeah, I've done so many actually, like you said, and I've almost like forgotten it's what I was doing like two.

Years ago, for example.

But it's funny, my little one just recently said to me, mommy, you always say that.

Oh.

And I didn't even realize. So I always say, have the best day. And I, I don't even like that. I don't know why, because you can't have the best day every day.

So I don't even know why I say that.

But she's like, oh, Mom, I know.

You always say that.

And I just laughed at myself. But I always say like, mommy loves you all day long. So that's like very consistent.

And then as you know, we do like, there was a long time where we're drawing hearts on our wrists and so I got mine tattooed on my wrist. And then I'll still like not as often anymore. My kids don't need It. But I went away last weekend, and so I drew a little heart.

They stayed overnight at a friend's, and so I drew a heart on their wrists. And so that was very much part of our school routine. But then, even this morning, I noticed my little one kissed my hand. And then she'll.

She'll kiss my hand, and then she'll pull, like, so the opposite. So we kiss each other's hands. And that's from the Kissing Hand, a really nice book.

And so there's, like, little elements, moments like that, that sometimes I'm like, oh, interesting. She's maybe feeling a little bit more something this morning. And so then she kissed my hand, and then we did the thing.

And then I'm like, okay, you know what? I know this morning.

Then I'm gonna wait with you until you see your teacher, because that's gonna feel safer rather than just, like, walking away because you're fine in line with your friends.

And I said she was able to initiate.

That's what you want.

Is like, she's recognizing the feelings in her own body and then able to advocate kind of for what she needs.

Yeah. So I would say our routines have changed over time, but we'll be consistent for a little period, like, the last three months.

I'm probably doing the exact. Every morning with her. Nice.

Yeah. We've did bracelets for a little bit. We did, like, two hugs. And then I'm leaving, you know, like, just so that it was predictable.

And I think, like, my son sort of said, like, don't linger. You know, Give me a good goodbye and then send me on my way.

I love that because I think the longer that we're with them lingering, right then they've got this time to keep thinking and ruminating sort of about the next thing.

Whereas sometimes we can help that transition actually go so smoother because instead of sitting and ruminating, they can just dive into that next thing. They'll find a friend, hopefully, or meet with that teacher and hold her hand or something.

At your school, do they go right in or are they waiting outside?

I don't know yet, because we're only in SK and so they're in this, like, cage, which is my favorite.

Oh, yeah. Okay. That was a hard thing for my little one, going from kindergarten to grade one for a number of different reasons.

But we stand outside, and so if you.

Yeah, yours sounds.

Yeah, I don't love that. Because then, yeah, all the parents are just kind of lingering. Lingering, which we talked about.

But you're either late and at the Last second, so that you don't have to linger. Which I don't want to be late and, like, pressed or you're there, like on time and a little bit early, but then you gotta wait.

And when you say wait, I think you literally mean, like, standing and waiting. Like, it's not like they're running around playing tag or like, you know, something like that.

Which is like, yeah, some of the kids are.

Oh, okay.

Some do. Mine. No, no, My older one does. My little one. Like, they're all the great ones are in a line. Yeah. And they just stand there.

And so she's just standing there. And then if I start to walk.

Away, she's like, yeah, she wants me to stand there with her. So, yeah, we gotta wait for that bill.

And so I was saying. I was just wondering about it. Like, yeah, you're either early and then you're lingering or you're late. And I don't know.

There's no perfect thing anyway.

Yes. And so in those cases, right.

You want to come up with a plan for that waiting period so that they're not just sitting there thinking, like, oh, I gotta. I gotta go into school. This is. I gotta go into school.

What are we gonna do?

Like, you know, and start ruminating about it. It's like, then we need to come up with a waiting game or like, I don't know, some sort of activity we're doing during that thing.

Or else the child's probably just going to, like, like I said, ruminate and get more distressed.

Yes.

And that's where those X phrases come into. Right. Is like saying, I see. Like, this is hard for you and you can do it. You know, this is tricky.

And you're going to have fun once you get in there, you know?

Or like, this is tricky, but I see your friend so and so over there and, like, just sort of naming the feeling, reminding them that they can go through it. And then I like to tie it into something that's like, this is your why. Right. This is why we're moving through it. Yes.

And it can't be be because you want to get a job when you're 20, right. It's got to be something from today.

Exactly, exactly. So lots of different ideas.

Like, one thing we talked about was, like, having that script that you say, like, I'll walk you to the door, we'll do our squeeze, and then you'll hang up your backpack and mommy will.

See you at the end of the.

Day or something, like, kind of talking them through what that looks like. Again, from a language perspective, like, okay, I'm gonna go. It's like talking them through a visual schedule.

And then what's that cool thing at the end of the day? It's gonna be time with mom or whatever. And. And then, you know, another idea is transition items. I think we both did this.

You talked about the bracelets. My kids made, like, matching keychains. We put them on their backpacks.

Actually, my eldest has, like, a huge collection of stuffies that are keychains. And so she's like, you're not allowed to bring stuffies to school, but you can have keychains. So it's like this funny kind of exactly like it.

And so she's got, like, six stuffed animal keychains on her backpack. Anyways, so it's like this nice, like, kind of transition that she's allowed to. To do. And then they, like. It's a fun thing.

They're like, either part of the bracelet making or keychain making or part of, like, it's a fun memory that they got this. Anyways, so. Yeah, like, having some sort of item to help them get through that.

Right, Right. Perfect. I think that's a great idea. What we. What I would encourage as well is, like, look at where it specifically is the hard part.

And then I would work backwards kind of thing. And so the hard part is, like, actually the child, like, stepping out of the car. Or is it actually that goodbye at the gate?

Right.

Or is it, like, when they're actually entering classroom and you're not there and the teacher's kind of telling you that that's tricky.

Right.

And so once you have that information, that's when you can get a little bit more curious, too. And so I might think, like, if it's getting out of the car, before getting out of the car, I want to make sure they're in, like, a great place.

And so I usually try and play, like, their favorite songs on the drive to school or something like that, making sure we're giving them, like, lots of that, like, positive attention before that transition.

Love that.

And then I'll also prime them, you know, before, while we're in the car, we listen to our favorite favorite song. And then I'll be like, okay, we're almost at school. We're gonna get out, and then we're gonna go to the door and we'll do our nice.

Whatever that thing is that we're doing. Goodbye.

Yeah. Special handshake.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Nice. All right, so we talked about the morning routine. We talked about that drop off.

And now let's talk about that other hidden transition is going into the classroom. So once the kids in school, there's so many transitions across the day that of course, as parents, we don't get a chance to see.

Yeah, exactly. We've got, like, just entering the school, of course, and then you gotta hang up all your stuff.

Then you'll see, like we were saying, like, those rich to lean transitions, like from gym to math or from math to gym, writing to reading tasks, ones that require a lot of listening, group instructions to the independent work. And of course, we all have preferences around different types of activities that happen throughout the school day.

And it's natural to have preferences for one over the other. And so thinking of those rich to lean transitions. There's a lot of them.

Yes.

Or lean to rich. Both.

So many. And lots of different kinds of lunch breaks. My kids. Second, first lunch and second lunch. I know all the things. Yes. So many transitions.

And then a lot of these are things are delivered verbally in a noisy classroom while the child is maybe doing an activity. You know, there's like an overwhelming sensory environment there. And then I wanted to pull in from a language perspective too.

Like, it's hard to know if someone's not understanding something.

And so receptive language, those kids who are having trouble, like, following an instruction, either it can look like dysregulation or like, maybe they're like, not following the routine. So you might think, like, oh, that kid's disruptive because they're not doing it. Or it can look like they just slip under the radar. Like.

Yeah, you just don't notice that they're not following along. And. And so if they're like, for a lot of the times, it's really hard for a teacher to know what the comprehension level is of that child.

And so then if. If it doesn't match their peers, the teacher isn't aware, then it just, like, creates a different kind of problem.

Exactly. And like, again, the. It's important to understand what the problem is.

Yes.

Right. Is it that I don't want to transition?

Yeah. Right.

Is it that I don't understand this transition? Right, right. Or is it something else?

Yes.

And your approach to that problem depends on the answer to that question. You're right. Right, right. And so without figuring that out, it's so tricky.

Yeah. And you got how many kids in the classroom.

Exactly. And they can't figure it out.

No, so tricky. So it's like. Yeah, very, very difficult. Sometimes the instructions are given really fast.

I Talked about this just earlier, but this is such an interesting thing we talk about at the clinic. Like if the instruction was given to somebody else and not directly to that person. That's a skill that kids got to learn. Exactly.

They don't know what to bring. Like, if the teacher's like, okay, we're going to the gym, some of the kids know that means we got to change into our different shoes to have.

It's like there's all these different shoes.

Yes.

And so like you got to implicitly know, like going to the gym means I got to put my gym shoes on or going outside means, oh, I got to flip to my other outdoor shoes. There's like all these different layers. Yes.

And for neurodivergent children. Right. Like, we know that there's likely going to be a language impact to these children and then as well, executive functioning changes, et cetera.

And so that's where the first we find like the first couple months really are like pretty tricky. But the more that we can get into routines and show them the routines, the better they're going to be.

Because we often find our neurodivergent learners have really strong memories. They're really good at remembering a routine. And so if we use these routines, then we're more likely to see success over time. Right.

But from the get go, we really need to add in then those visual supports. We should add in some check ins with our friends that we notice are falling a little bit behind or maybe aren't transitioning. Right.

Come up and see them because so the teachers have to put in some more of these intentional check ins. But they've got 25 other kids that they also need to get all their shoes changed and all that stuff. Right.

And so it is a competing environment sort of to support these transitions going well. So we want to look at the transition as like a chain of events. Right. We're stopping one activity, sometimes we're gathering another activity.

I got to sometimes move somewhere and then I've got my shoes on now I got to be sitting and waiting. Then we got to go somewhere new and then you're expecting me to start a new task. Like that is a long chain of events.

And then certainly if we think of it from processing or executive functioning perspective, that's a lot of different switches your brain's gotta make and keep track of for sure. And again, that's where those routines really come in handy.

Handy because the brain can take some of the load off by just moving through like automatic patterns that it's Used to?

Yeah, for sure. Actually, it made me think there are these really cute phrases that the teachers use and I'm trying to think of what they are on the spot. Like hands.

We used to do it in our preschool. Hands on top, that means stop and like those kind of things. And then the classroom's all doing it together.

But it's like a consistent, like, oh, she always says this. And that's like a signal that we're going to do something different. And so I love those. And. And the kids just like all kind of. Most of them. Right.

Follow along. But yeah, like that. Hands on top. That means. And then they'll usually do like stop or I don't know. But there's a lot of those things.

And like some teachers are thoughtfully saying, like, hey, we're going into a transition period right now. Yeah.

It reminds me of with Direct Instruction, this is a evidence based curriculum for teaching children.

Right.

One of the big goals of Direct Instruction, one of the reasons I like it is it helps kids learn when they're not the one once directly spoken to, is one of the goals of it. Right. And so it'll have specific times where it'll be like Britney. And so only you should respond, obviously. And I shouldn't. Right.

And then it'll say shauna. And then I should respond in. You should. And then I'll say everybody.

And then throughout the curriculum, usually, like, you'll try and fade out that everybody. Right. But the everybody serves essentially as that discriminative stimulus or the prompt for the child, like, oh, this is for me. I should listen.

Even though they didn't say shaa, they still want me to pay attention. And so that's such a small piece of language. Right. That you think, how does that make any difference?

But it's like the word everybody can if trained or like talk to them. Right. Can then cue like, oh, turn my listening ears on. I better follow this.

Whereas some kids, certainly children with autism, we know, tend to be more self directed and therefore are like just sort of missing what's going on in the environment. Because I would propose that they're thinking about their own stuff and like interested in what they've got going on in their own brain.

Exactly. The world is so cool. And then sometimes we don't get a window into that world. Their brain is doing something different. Exactly. Oh, yeah, exactly.

So so many different language components into all of those things that we've been talking about. All right, let's move into our next transition. Recess or lunch or what do they Call them health, nutrition, break. Yes, yes, yes.

They are tricky because we think of them as breaks often, but for many kids are actually a really hard part of the day.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Recess is, like, socially complex, Loud, unstructured. Lunch is, like, so layered. Like, I hate a l lunchroom. I know.

Nothing I hate more than a lunch.

Like, do you know where you're sitting? And in the younger grades, they sort of, like, sit under their desks, but sometimes you're going to a lunchroom and a cafe, like.

Or like, I might buy them a lunch. Oh, my gosh. There's so many complexities.

Like, does it for me.

You're thinking about tuna. Yes.

Oh, anyone that brings tuna. Even this week, I had, like, meat that we had bought, and I was like, oh, I don't want to eat this. It's so smelly.

Oh, yeah, I know. Exactly. So there's so many things, and then there's, like, for the little ones, like, containers to open.

And, like, what if I don't know how to ask for help? Then I may be not eating anything in my lunch. But as a parent, you can't just throw everything in a loose lunchbox.

Yes, yes. Or if you're, like, a selective or picky eater.

Right.

Depending on what your parents are packing for you or what's available to you. Like, that could be tricky.

So hard thinking about the recess thing again.

My little one, she's verbal, and so she was able to tell me this, but there was a long time where I didn't realize she was really, really, really struggling with recess. And I kind of was like, oh, like, I thought that would be fun. And, like, that's when you get to play with your friends.

A.

It was the transition from kindergarten where it's just you play only with your class. She loved that. And like, the teachers there with them and, like, it's all good and very structured going into then in grade one, you're now with.

From. With the grade one to the grade eights, and everybody's out there. And so for her, I do feel like it was. Was like, who do I play with?

Like, what do I even do out here? There's no structure. I just want my little, like, safe zone. And then she also talked about.

And we sort of worked through this with her teacher, but she talked about the literal transition of going outside. She's such a little person that she was, like, squishing through the door, and she was like. And I would have never thought of that.

Right.

But it took us a long time, and I Had to get really curious. But like going from the class re. And then, okay, the recess bell rings and everybody's squishing through. And she was like, I just can't.

Like, the squishing through the door is too much for me. So we. Maybe I've talked about this before, but we have to. We had to like, come up with a strategy with the teacher then.

And so she will like, stay back and then once all the big kids are gone, then she's going through the door or whatever.

Right, right. Yeah, there's. And like, as we know, like, social dynamics at recess change all the time, you know?

Yes.

And so one, I don't know, one day everything's fine, and then the next day there's something going on in the friend group. And then recess is not fun anymore because there's something going on.

Drama.

Yes, exactly. It's so challenging. And I think one of the things that you talked about there is like, the getting curious piece can be tricky. Right.

It's like, it's a lot of small conversations to get like a little bit of info, I find.

You know, like, I might bring up a problem and my son's not ready to talk about it, or he gives me sort of of like a brush off response, bring it up a little bit later. You get like one little piece of insight, you know, and then before bed might get a little bit more.

And like, slowly you're kind of putting a story together and you're like, oh, you're getting squished. Yeah, okay, that makes perfect sense.

Exactly. And these are kids who are able to verbalize what they're thinking.

And so for a lot of our friends, verbal or not speaking or not vocal, like, it can be really hard to put through like a narrative. This is how I'm feeling.

This is what I'm thinking.

Even if they are like, have vocal words and then if they don't, then like, you know, it really takes a lot. It's a lot more involved in getting curious to find out what are those things. Exactly.

And I would say that's really where behavior analysis comes in. And having a behavior analyst at the school come in.

Right.

And do those observations. Because one thing we also want to be conscious of is putting our thoughts on our kids.

Oh, yeah.

You know, like, I don't want to say, oh, I. He's feeling this way.

Right.

Because I probably have my own bias in the way that I'm interpreting his behavior. And so what we might end up doing is kind of maybe even creating more anxiety or something. With our plan.

And so really that objective data of observing the transitions and the child's responses and picking up on those small little things that are happening can really help you solve that problem, you know?

Yeah. And those little things, like we talk about indicating behaviors.

And so if you're like doing an observation of a child who maybe is like minimally speaking or non, non vocal, you've got to look at. Yeah.

Like you said, like you can't just say, oh, he must be sad or he must be scared because, because of this, you know, you're like looking at, hey, what's happening in that moment? What's happening with his eyes, his body, his facial expression? Just like everything.

Yeah. And is that consistent with how he shows sadness or how he shows anger?

Right.

Usually. Because we also know neurodivergent children might show their emotions differently. Right. It's like happiness could look different for them.

I sent Brittany a really funny photo last week of my son. I took him to this like unicorn cafe. Getting so excited there. Like he looks just like, not mad but like unenthralled.

Like he's just like staring at it straight faced. And I look, I showed him the picture, I was like, are you like, do you like it here? He's like, yeah, it doesn't like, don't I look like I like it?

And I was like, no, no. And then every picture after, they've got like a big smile on his face.

Yeah.

Like he didn't know, you know? Anyways.

Yes.

So yes, I think looking at some of their like body language and stuff concerning certainly give us some really good insight into why that might be happening. And then I think the other thing we can think about is those warnings or transitional warnings. Right.

Is often we'll say like two more minutes and I'll catch myself doing this as well. Like two minutes means nothing to me or to them unless I'm setting a real Timer.

Yes.

Like two minutes, sometimes for me is 20, sometimes it's actually two, sometimes it's 30 seconds. And so we're not consistent either. But the kids certainly don't understand the passage of time that way. At first a long time.

And then for neurodivergent individuals, usually time management is like a tricky thing. And so we like to keep it concrete and see something like two more jumps, then we're going. Right. Or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Yeah.

So with recess, we talked about all the different demands, like the sensory, the overload, trying to like get curious, figure out what may be challenging. And then we always have to come back to the language, too.

And, like, thinking about keeping our language simple as the communication partner, but then also maybe coaching or teaching some functional language. And so it might look like help or stop or go. And maybe that's teaching the child vocal phrases.

Maybe it's putting it on a PECS card or like a picture card, or maybe it's in an AAC device. But somehow we need to teach that functional language, like, very explicitly. And that can also relate to lunchtime.

And so we were talking about those, like, containers that are hard to open or, like, if there's a spill or something. Like, often kids need that explicit instruction to. To know to say help or open.

And that's where I think you want to get curious. Right. And figure out I shouldn't pick what the functional communication phrase or, like, situation is.

I'm looking for problem behavior or maladaptive behavior or a point where they're, like, missing, you know, and I notice that they're withdrawing maybe, or something like that. Right. I'm looking for a key or entry point. And then I'm thinking, what's the skill you're missing here?

So if you're engaging in maladaptive behavior, when I say it's recess time, you're throwing your body on the ground. Okay, well, that seems like you need some words to communicate what you need here.

So I want to identify the key moment, and then I want to figure that's where you got to get curious, too, Right. It's like, okay, you're laying on the floor here. I've said go up for recess. I think that's fun.

Yeah.

I'm obviously missing something. And so a phrase like help, please is maybe not appropriate. The child is not. Want help?

No.

And so I want to figure out, like, maybe it's that they can't get their shoes on and they're feeling frustrated. Right? So then help, please could be appropriate. But I don't want to just come in with a blanket, like, help statement.

And then I'm coming in and picking them up and bringing them outside. Right? Like, that's not necessarily. It's could be classified, I guess, under functional communication, but it's missing sort of the problem.

No, you're right. Like, instead, maybe it's like telling them too loud.

Right?

And that's the part like access alarm. We know it's so, like, really there's bells, and then everyone's shuffling and all the noise and overwhelming.

So maybe too loud is more appropriate there. Or then that's what you're saying. Is like, think about what really is it in that moment that they need? Maybe it's just like, I need more time.

Exactly. And that's something we do at the clinic all the time. It's just like, more time. Okay. They're getting dysregulated because they need that.

So we just got to show you, man. Like, you communicate that to me, and then we can open honor that.

Exactly. And then as a teacher, it's probably hard to get in and, like, catch all these moments.

And so I would recommend something we'll do at the clinic sometimes is just paste a visual or tape a visual on the desk. Like a reminder. Like, you can ask for a break, you can ask for help. And like, we kind of teach them what each of the ones mean.

And sometimes it's an actual card that they'll come and give. Other times it's actually just a reminder for them that that's available.

Yeah, exactly. Because if they don't have that way to tell you that, then it is going to come out like.

Like some sort of discomfort, confusion, and it'll be like dysregulated behavior. Yeah. Right. And that's like, where the behavior, like, communicates exactly what they're.

Yes. And they're not bad. They're overwhelmed or missed. Like, you know, there's a skill deficit here.

You know, there's a replacement, we call them replacement behaviors that could be taught to make this better for everyone. And it's not me necessarily forcing you to recess.

Yeah.

You know, there's more to it than that.

Right.

And I think old world. And like, certainly when we were growing up, it's just like, well, go outside.

Yes.

You know, not that curious thing.

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so the next sort of hidden transition with the school stuff is the after school decompression.

Right.

And that one's huge. There's after school meltdown. And so there's so many layers to this one, too.

It is. And again, I think it circles back to all those things that we've talked about.

You know, school is a long day with a lot of expectations, a lot of, like, interplay with social dynamics. There's like, sometimes my son comes home and he hasn't eaten all day.

Sometimes there's been like, something that happens at school for neurodivergent people we know, like, masking can take a toll on their brains. And then the other thing we know, of course, is at home is like that safe spot, you know?

And so I know sometimes I've picked up my son and he just like, Starts crying as soon as I see him. And so, you know, he's been, like, holding something in all day.

Exactly. And then as parents, the first thing we want to do is, like, talk and ask them a question. Question like, how was your day? Because then we get.

We want to get curious. And so our first thing is usually like, well, what happened? How was your day?

And I think we got to step back and realize, like, that is actually an incredibly hard language task. It requires so many things. And I love kind of explaining this to parents because.

And it might, like, I have to remind myself that too, because naturally we want to just say, like, how was your day? And then that one question requires memory of, like, what happened, happened?

Sequencing, like, oh, well, we went outside and then we did this craft, and then we did that. It requires, like, emotional reflection to know, like, how did you feel about all of those pieces?

You have to be able to summarize sort of things that happened and decide, like, what's important and what's not. You know, I tied my shoes. Maybe it's important or not, I don't know. And then decide what other. What information the other person wants.

Like, there's so many things that I know we've had to train myself to not just say, like, how was your day?

Right. Yeah, exactly. I try and, like, pick up on what they're doing at school, you know, so ask about a specific thing. Nice. Yeah.

Sometimes that's been somewhat successful.

Successful.

My husband will say, like, tell me something funny that happened today and see if he'll, like, recall something there. Right. And then I also do lots of modeling myself, like, this was my day and this is what I did.

Yeah.

And then looking at those in communicating behaviors, too, you can sometimes tell, do they want to chat? Do they want to be alone?

Yeah. Sometimes they just need time to decompress and they don't want to. And so maybe just like, a hug is good.

And then we'll chat.

And like, I know for my kids, they'll usually open up like three or four hours after.

Yeah. Yeah. I find a really bad time, and I think it's a stalling tactic myself, but then I can get lots of information.

And so I think from a behavioral lens, when we look at after school, we're really trying to make it that low demand transition. And so. And that's what I've tried to do.

But I would say again and, like, lucky and that I can, like, flex my work time and, like, make it a low demand sort of transition. But if you're finding that your child comes home and is often dysregulated, Then I might think of like, some quiet things that they like to do.

Like magnetic tiles are very popular in my house. And so just going in your room and like building alone for a little while could, can like help you sort of like decompress and like process your day.

Right.

But I always have to remind myself, and I feel like you're good at saying like, yeah, we need to do this, like, low demand transition. Sometimes in my brain I'm like, you get home, you gotta do your homework.

Oh yeah. See, I'm not in that phase yet.

Oh yeah.

And I truly don't understand how people get homework done.

I know because like before I had.

Children and even while I was like raising my oldest and he was young, I thought we would read every single day. I thought I would be like, so on a mean. I love structure, I love education. We never read. I read to him like before bed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There is, I would say very few times that we are actually sitting down and reading.

Right?

Yeah, yeah. I try and embed it like functionally in real life, but anyways, I don't know how people do it. I just find like, it's bedtime before I know it.

I know it is very challenging.

And so then sometimes, like, I want to get their homework done, but then I also want to like, be conscious that they need this down time and then it's dinner and then there's an activity and it is very challenging. Yeah.

And I think again, like, that's where you got to get curious as a parent and sort of figure out what works for you. For some kids, maybe coming home and doing their homework is a good strategy for them.

For other kids, maybe it's like 20 minutes of like, like really like calm time, like no demands, nothing. Like, do whatever you want to do. And sometimes I do that with my son.

I don't let him watch YouTube super often, but after like a really hard day, I'll let him watch the like, mind numbing you. I call it that in my house because it's mind numbing tv. You should not watch this for any length of time. It's not good for your brain.

And I like openly talk about that with him. But you know, like, after a tough day, like, same for myself, I'm just sitting and scrolling social media mindlessly.

You know, not a great habit, but it's something that's like resetting my nervous system for, you know.

Yeah, exactly. And then there's like no questions or no Demands for that, like whatever period of time.

Yes. I know some people really find like a bath or something can be really helpful too.

Yeah.

But I would imagine like being. Or for myself anyways, being a nice warm water sounds lovely.

Perfect.

So anyways, get curious, try out some different strategies. You can create like after school bins of things, you know, and see if you can help them, like get that decompression that way.

Hopefully not having so many dysregulated moments at nighttime.

Very tricky doing how to build your routine. And I think it's got to be so customized to you and your family. Exactly. Every family's routine is so different too.

And like some families, they've got activities Monday to Friday. Like they're doing soccer.

I don't know how do it to.

And like, come on. And all the things and fair. Right. Like some families. And then some families are doing like one thing or nothing. Yeah.

I find like one thing is all I can commit to. It's like too much for me more than that.

But like you said, we certainly know people that are out every night of the week and that structure works really well for them.

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's reframe here. And like we were talking about antecedent strategies earlier. And so how are we setting this up before school even starts?

And like what can we actually do before the official return to school?

Right. And I think for us, we have a pretty casual summer. Our kids do for the most part.

They're doing like a little bit of camp here and there, but also just like home a lot of the time. And so certainly their sleep and wake schedule times have to be adjusted. Right. So we are already sort of working on that.

How can we get them back on like their usual sleep schedule? What. Whatever that is.

Yep, exactly. So that needs to be part of our planning as the transition for parents. And then like go and walk to the school. That's something that's so important.

I know I've done that with my kids every year is like visit the playground and make that fun. You know, let go and have those like fun memories on the school grounds. Look at pictures if you can of the like.

I know when my girls were in daycare, the teachers had sent us pictures of themselves beforehand. Oh, this is so nice. This is Mary and this is Sarah and this is what she looks like.

Like, I love that you don't get that when you're in elementary school for high school. Nobody's given you those. But like, that would be so nice if you had that opportunity.

For sure.

Yep.

And so kind of like just preparing their brain for what's to come. Right. And then we're going to look at some of those other things that we talked about. Can be tricky, right?

Our opening and closing containers, tying our shoes, the clothing, the language that is needed, and then, you know, starting to come up with a plan. So these are some of the things we're thinking about, like, a couple weeks out to try and get this, like, new routine together.

Because they have to do so much of that themselves.

Like, you can help them get rest ready in the morning, but then every time they're changing their shoes from outdoor to gym to indoor shoes, like, they got to be able to do that on their own. Right.

You know, and, like, they make it cool and have a zipper club at school, but you've got to be able to do your coat up or, like, know the sequence of putting your snow pants on and all those things.

Right. Or, like, you might be the one that they're always like, hurry up, Shauna. You know, and, like, that is also just regulating to my nervous system.

Right. And then that week before school is when we really want it.

Like, we're not running, like, school boot camp or anything, but we want to, like, really start getting those routines in place, talking about school. And so I think some families will go and buy fresh stuff. You know, they want to make it really exciting.

And for some kids, that could be a really nice strategy, getting a new backpack or getting new shoes or some of those things. I would say, in my house, like, my kids don't really care that much about what they're wearing or what they look like yet.

And so that probably wouldn't be our strategy, but could be a strategy if you've got a kid that likes new stuff and likes to shop.

Definitely my strategy. Like, my girls will love that part. But then I'm also, like, in my house, we use a visual schedule.

And some weeks I don't need it, some months I don't need it. But in these times of, like, changing of the seasons or something, I'll definitely bring it back out.

And so I'll set up my visual schedule, likely, like, just the week or two before school starts back so that we know what the schedule looks like. And then we're making that, like, really visual. And so that can help just, like, think of those things that work for your child and your family.

Right?

Yeah. And then another really practical strategy I love is where we are.

The first day of school is often a PA day, and then you're actually starting sort of like mid week and so we have a holiday and then a PA day typically. And so what I might do during those ones is I want to practice this routine. Right. I want to try out the strategies that we can came up with.

The areas that I've thought of might be problematic and my strategies I've developed, I'm going to run that through in the morning.

Right.

But instead of going to school, we're going to go to the playground or we're going to go to the splash pad or like we're going to go and do something fun. That way it like reinforces this routine and hopefully keeps the child sort of focused.

So we've got like ideally two solid run throughs of our morning routine that have been successful.

Yeah.

And yeah. And so I think that that's a nice strategy to sort of. And identify sort of where problems might come in a low stress environment. Right.

Because the, if the problems are happening when we're transitioning to the park, then it's definitely going to happen on the first day of school.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, you know, practicing is what.

You're talking about here.

I love that you can also do things like make something for the teacher, like what helps me or this is just about me because the teacher's got to learn all these different kids too. And then I think it's important, you know, we've been talking about, about the act strategies and like not just dismissing all of the fam feelings.

Sorry. Like not just saying you're okay, you're fine, but also like not like saying, oh, you're gonna love school, it'll be amazing.

Because it's sort of invalidating of the kids. Like I don't know how I feel about this.

And so you can't just promise they're gonna love every second because the reality is they're not gonna love every second of it. I'm sure. Exactly.

And that feels dismissive to me and also is not setting them up for success. And so I again, I'm probably gonna say, you know, your tummy might feel a bit nervous tomorrow.

Yeah.

And that is totally normal. This is very new.

Yes.

Whatever. I think he's maybe feeling a bit nervous about. So we've got a really strong plan in place.

And remember, after school me and you are gonna go outside and play. Like we'll go to the park after school or something like that, you know, and like keep things moving forward.

Exactly.

Might say like school starting soon, you might feel excited or nervous or even grumpy. Sometimes. And all of that's fine. I'm here for you and we can come up with a plan.

Love it.

And so that night before school prep is so important.

You're like starting to create those scripts and even like I said, you can get started earlier than the night before, but the night before I'm really talking it through and making sure we're like on the same page. For my children that can have those back and forth conversations.

Right.

For children that are not vocal communicators or maybe not initiating much communication that way, then we could use like short scripts, like a short little social story. School is starting tomorrow. Y we will walk to school.

Yeah, you usually I find for the neurodivergent children, they do try and get them in early at least here, like they'll let them come in the week before. So maybe you do know who the teacher is and some of those things and so you might have that information.

And so I'm to going keeping it short, you know, showing them the plan and then during the actual morning I might be showing them on that visual story that I've put together, you know, oh, we're here. It's time to wake up and go to school now.

We're going to have breakfast and then the bus is going to come, you know, and I'm like using these same visuals over and over because that routine is really helpful.

Yeah, exactly.

And so coming up with those scripts is like I think incredibly helpful. And adapting them to your child's language abilities is sort of what you've been saying too.

Exactly. We've talked a lot today about all the different things that your child might be experiencing and not to sort of dismiss those feelings.

Own it, but move through it. And so we're in this with you. Back to this back to school transition. It's not necessarily easy, but it doesn't have to be. We can do hard things.

We can do this together. Exactly.

We'd love to hear how your transition goes. Let us us know sort of where those problem areas came up or what you did to get curious and solve some of those things.

Join us for our next episode where we're going to chat about some practical back to school strategies that you can use hopefully right away.

Thanks everyone. As always, give us your feedback. Let us know if you would love. We'd love a rating on Apple or.

Spotify to let us know what you're.

Thinking or send us a direct message and say here's what I'd love to for a future episode. Thanks everyone.

Thanks.

Before we go. We want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

See you next time. Bye.

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