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Navigating Midlife and Caregiving with Penny Wincer
Episode 8 • 10th June 2024 • The Happy Middle with Suzy Darke • Suzy Darke
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In this episode, I welcome Penny Wincer, a Melbourne-born author, writing coach, and podcast host based in London. Penny shares her midlife journey from a freelance photographer to a writer and non-fiction coach all while navigating life as a single parent and caregiver.

We chatted about the challenges of caregiving, and the importance of self-compassion and Penny is exceptionally honest about the lack of societal support for carers.

I'm so grateful Penny was able to be my guest and for her thoughtful exploration of balancing personal aspirations with caregiving responsibilities. It's a wonderful chat and I hope you enjoy it too.

Episode highlights:

05:54 The Struggle and Strength of Caring for a Disabled Child

10:55 The Critical Role of Carers in Society

12:57 Self-Care and Society's Role in Supporting Carers

27:01 Finding Creativity and Purpose in the Midst of Caring

Referenced in the episode:

About Penny:

Website: Penny's Website

Instagram: Penny Wincer

Twitter: @pennywincer on Twitter



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Speaker:

Penny & Suzy: So hello, I'm really

excited to introduce today's guest.

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:

We have Penny Wincer along today.

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Penny is a Melbourne born, London dwelling

author and non fiction writing coach.

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And after 15 years as a freelance

interiorist photographer, she

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began writing about her life as

a single parent and unpaid carer.

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And then going on to publish, tender,

he imperfect art of caring in:

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She's a certified writing coach as well.

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So as well as writing her own book,

she helps other people to write theirs,

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particularly helping writers put standout

nonfiction book proposals together.

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And she also hosts a podcast

called Not Too Busy to Write.

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And there are so many things I'm excited

to talk to you about today, Penny.

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So thank you very much for

coming along to the Happy Middle.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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Yeah, you're so welcome.

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You're so welcome.

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Happy Middle is all about, navigating

this in betweeny part of life in 50s

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when we're, in, in between lots of things

and working out like this messy middle.

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And I'm, so I'm just, I would love to know

what your own experience of this middle

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part is, how are you finding it so far?

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video: Oh,

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Penny & Suzy: it's funny, like I think,

so many times I've heard people talk

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about their life in terms of phases,

often you hear people say, Oh, my twenties

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were chaotic and I didn't know myself.

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And then my thirties felt much more

steady and I was settled down and

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I was really coming into myself.

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And actually I had this slightly different

flipped experience where I was a.

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I was a young carer in my teens.

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It was quite full on.

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And then my mum died in my early 20s.

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And then, so obviously it started,

my 20s started a little bit rough.

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But then actually after that, my 20s felt

really free and adventurous and exciting.

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I travelled a lot.

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I was no longer a carer,

although I miss my mum very much.

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I was in this whole new phase.

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And then in my thirties, I, became

a mother and had two children,

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but my eldest is disabled.

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And I was suddenly a carer again

in quite different circumstances.

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And actually my thirties ended up being

a really difficult time because of that.

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My marriage ended, not because of

that, but my marriage ended and I

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was a carer and a single parent.

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And I live very far away from all of

my family and obviously becoming a

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mother without my own mother as well.

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So my thirties were

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I guess, probably,

interesting, challenging time.

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And I was quite happy to see

the back of them in a way.

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And so my 40s have felt, I

guess I've more free again,

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more kind of creatively free.

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I'm in a new relationship again.

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And it's really nice to be in

another phase of my life with that.

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Things are still very chaotic in

many ways, having a disabled child.

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And it's con and there are

constantly new things because of

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that, because he obviously, his

challenges change as he grows.

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So I'm not going to downplay that, but

at the same time, I am very accustomed

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to it now more so than I usEd to be.

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Things going in the middle.

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They're going, they're really interesting

and they're certainly not dull.

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Let's say.

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Okay.

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So interesting and not dull.

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And also it sounds some new beginnings

happening for you as well and new.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And congratulations for your, your

new love and, A new relationship.

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Exciting.

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Yeah, really exciting.

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And so different to start a relationship

in, we were like 40, I think when

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we met and he's the same age as me.

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And, and it's so different

to start a relationship at 40.

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then at 20 or 25 or even like 30.

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We had lived a lot when we got

together, we had done a lot of

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living and we'd been through a

lot, each of us different things.

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So it is a really interesting

time to be in a new

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relationship, really interesting.

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And then of course, on top of all

of that, I completely changed my

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career as well around the same time.

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Because I spent my twenties and thirties

as a photographer and now in my forties

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as a writer and a writing coach.

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So actually.

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My 40s have felt very different, but

yeah, a lot of changes and some of

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those have been painful, but they've

all been good, even the one, even when

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some of it has been a bit painful.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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I feel like changes is a really big

theme that comes up when we talk

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about midlife, changes that just

happen to us and thrown at us and then

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the stuff that we initiate as well.

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And sometimes it's.

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It's hard to figure out which is which,

whether we've actually initiated a change

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or whether it's just being forced upon us.

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And I think it's often a

combination of the two.

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Certainly my career changes have been

that it was, I definitely, I've always

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written, and When I was in, when I did

my undergraduate, I, my, I did a double

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major in creative writing and film.

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That was, could have gone down that

road immediately, but I always imagined

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it was something I would come back to.

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But, I went into photography

and actually I loved it.

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It was great.

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I loved being a photographer.

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I got to the point just though,

at a certain point with my

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son, it was just untenable.

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I managed, but I think five or six

years as a single parent shooting

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and trying to support my son's need.

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And obviously I have

another child as well.

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With no family around.

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video: No

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Penny & Suzy: real backup.

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It was hugely difficult, but it

just got to the point when my

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son's needs got to a certain point.

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And as disabled kids get older and

services and things change and get

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more challenging, to get hold of, it

became too difficult to keep that going.

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So it was slightly forced

on me, I would say.

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Certainly the speed at which I had to

make those changes was forced on me.

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But at the same time, from a

creative point of view, I have

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no regrets about that change.

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It's just been, it's very, it is difficult

financially to switch careers in your

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40s, when you're supporting a family.

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But.

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So I've got no regrets, but it has, it's

been a painful process, I would say.

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Yeah, and are you finding that,

your new career fits a lot better

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around your family and your friends?

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Yeah, I mean that, it just

had to, I had to do it.

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It was impossible to do what I used to do.

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It just got to the point where

it was physically impossiblE.

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the older my son gets, the more sort

of specialized support he needs.

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It's harder and harder to come by,

it's more expensive, but even aside

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from money, it's just so difficult to

find people to care for disabled young

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people, compared to, small child.

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And he, his needs have changed.

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He needs so much routine and regularity

and he needs me to be, I basically need to

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be the flexible one because he can't be.

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And it just, as much as, I was

always freelance, a freelance

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photography career is not flexible.

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When a client books me, I'm booked.

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I have to be there at 9am.

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Otherwise they've, there's

no one to replace me.

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If a photographer can't turn

up, then the whole team.

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is, shut down.

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I'm costing a client

thousands and thousands.

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I can't just call him sick

because something's gone wrong.

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And he can't be looked after by just

anyone and the older he gets, the

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more kind of things go wrong really.

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That's what it is.

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And so I needed something

to be really flexible.

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And part of what it was is when I wrote

my first book, I was still shooting.

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It was in 2019 and I took as much

time off shooting as I could to

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write it because I had to write

it reasonably quickly once it got.

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once it got commissioned.

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And I remember at the time, as well

as really enjoying the work itself,

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I was just like, Oh my God, this

is so much better for our life.

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It's so much better that I'm here

mostly working from home and available.

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I just, I'd realized at that point that

we had reached that phase where I just

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needed to be on hand, and flexible.

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And that's what started it.

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But then, the pandemic and various

other things about my son getting older

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just made it happen very urgently.

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I'm hearing resonances and I know

it's very different, but with.

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a need for flexible working and, ways

round managing like all the different

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pieces of our lives that don't really

fit into that kind of nine to five

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model, or even the, the freelance

model where you're, you have to be

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in a certain place at a certain time.

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It feels many of us need to find like

ingenious ways to be in the world and

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earn money and forge paths forward that

also help us to take care of our caring

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responsibilities, whatever they look like.

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Yeah, I'm in a really tiny minority.

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There's only 4 percent of people.

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Mothers of disabled

children work full time.

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It's tiny.

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And I think the percentage of mothers

of non disabled kids is something like

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39 something like that work full time.

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So I'm in a tiny minority.

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And, the only way I can do

it is by doing it flexibly.

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And, It's, I know so many people that

have had to give up work and some people

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completely give up work because what

they did before they had children,

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you can't do flexibly or part time.

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And it's something that I feel very

strongly about work is so important to me.

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I feel like constantly, this is,

I think one of the things that's

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been a surprise as a parent, a

bit of a shock really, is that.

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I have to absolutely fight

tooth and nail to keep working.

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It, there's been so many times where

I just think, should I just give up,

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should I just give up and, allow us

to fall into poverty, quite frankly,

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and just get by, but I can't do it.

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I can't let that happen.

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And so I have to keep fighting.

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And it sounds mad, this is what happens

to families with disabled family members.

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It's in fact, having a disabled

family member is the number one

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predictor of poverty in the UK.

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Because either you need.

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the other family members need to

not work to support them because

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there isn't support in place.

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Or because, one of the adults

in the household is disabled and

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can't work for whatever reason.

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So it's, it's a fight to keep going, but

I was determined that I wasn't going to

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have my work removed from me, which is

why I had to make all the changes I made.

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yeah.

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And caring feels like such an unsupported.

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role in our culture, like there

just doesn't feel like there's.

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a lot of support at all

for, there is almost none.

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Yeah.

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It was almost done.

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And in fact, I would say

it's the other way around.

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It's the carers in this country that

are keeping this country afloat.

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A hundred percent, the NHS would

collapse and social services

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would collapse tomorrow.

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If all the unpaid carers stopped propping

up all of those services, the country

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couldn't function without unpaid carers.

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It would be completely, It'd be

complete chaos in the same way that,

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you know, all of the men who have

gotten in their careers, if none of

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them had wives behind them, they would

either be completely single and alone,

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or they would not be where they are.

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And the country is run on unpaid work.

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And than us in a way, you almost

need to flip it around, rather than

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saying there isn't much support for

carers, it's actually, it's carey

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carers who are doing all the support.

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Yeah.

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And.

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That's where I think we've got a big

problem with looking at it that way

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around because, anything that social

services and the NHS, and whatever

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other services, education does to

support me now with my son is making an

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investment in me being able to continue

to care for him in an ongoing way.

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It will cost them a fortune

if I can't do it anymore.

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But it happens, carers

get extremely burnt out.

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They can't do it anymore because

what's expected of one person

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to manage is mostly impossible.

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A lot of the time what's being asked.

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It's a shame.

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It's so short term and

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If we did actually support the carers

in this country, we would, it would

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be so much better long term in terms

of being able to have, be better for

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disabled people, it would be better

for carers, it would be better for the

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economy, be better for so many reasons.

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Just in the same way that investing in,

in, in child care and early learning

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and education is really beneficial

for the country in the long term.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And supporting better supporting

mothers too and parents, yeah.

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It's the same way.

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you're reminding me of that, a piece in

your book tender where you talk about this

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pyramid of care with when cared for at the

top and then carers and then underneath

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there needs to be the support there.

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Which I guess is all the services

that you're talking about, but

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it's also society at large.

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And, Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It is society at large.

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And I think, I think This is where

I always get a little bit, it can

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be a bit tricky about talking about

things like, individual care and

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individual self care, because, that's

only touching around the edges.

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And of course, there are things

that I can do to help support

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myself that allow me to continue,

caring for my son and my family.

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being, healthy and happy myself.

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There are lots of small

things I can do, of course.

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But I think there's such a bigger piece

of the puzzle is, having a society that

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cares, have a society that supports all

of its, members, including, disabled

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people, including carers, including

parents, and everybody really.

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And that's got to underpin everything.

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Without that, What does it matter if

I manage to meditate 10 minutes a day

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if I don't have any support for my son

and I can't work and I'm in poverty?

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It's, it's, and this is obviously,

so much bigger than a conversation

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about caring for disabled children.

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It's everything, this idea of, without

this kind of, an underpinning for

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everybody, in the same way that,

if you're raising children and you

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can't even give them a safe home and

put food on the table, like talking

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about managing your own stress on an

individual level, is meaningless if you

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can't get those basic things in place.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I'm wondering about like the

conversation about caring as well,

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feels like in midlife, we can

often be like in the middle of

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lots of different caring roles.

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Like we might have kids that

we're caring for or partners.

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And then, our relatives

getting older as well.

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And that's in the forefront of my minD.

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video: it

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Penny & Suzy: doesn't feel like we

speak about pairing and what that

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what it's going to look like until

it's actually here, until it hits, and

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it's like you know this is the role

like it doesn't seem to be, we don't

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seem to have those conversations.

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I think it's a few different things.

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One of the things that can be really

tricky, and I think particularly, which

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I'm sure loads of people listening will

resonate with this as parents get older.

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There can be a bit of a creep,

and certainly people have a

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certain idea about what caring

means and what it doesn't mean.

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And a lot of people, when they hear

the word carer, they think of someone

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doing quite intense, meeting quite

intense physical needs, And, but actually

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caring is so much bigger than that.

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A lot of people care by distance.

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They're making the doctor's appointments.

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They're checking in, they're

double checking that their parents

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have taken their medication.

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Do they need someone to

accompany them to the hospital?

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Actually, they need to have somebody

come and change all their light bulbs.

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They need to have actually somebody

nice to start coming and doing

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their shopping for them and bring

them every weekend, so caring can

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start in, in, in small remote ways.

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And often people don't recognize

that's what they're doing.

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Of course, at first, because

it's just a slow creep of building

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up a responsibilities of things

that you're just taking over.

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And of course it's natural.

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It's what we do when.

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People we love need support from us.

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We give it to them.

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And so we can be afraid to

label it as anything of, Oh,

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I'm just being a daughter.

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I'm just being a son.

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I'm just being a sister.

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I'm just being a partner.

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I'm just, and where I think

it's really important that we

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video: Recognize

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Penny & Suzy: and acknowledge what

we're doing is providing care and

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the kind of quick definition for

that, that Carers UK give is that if

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you're providing someone with support

that they could not otherwise manage

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without, then you are providing care.

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a carer.

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So on a regular basis.

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Whether that's because you are now

attending all hospital appointments

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and doing the shopping and changing all

the light bulbs, and doing things like

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making sure you clean the bath at your

mom's house, because you don't want

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them doing it because you're worried

that they'll slip over, that you're

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now a carer by doing those things.

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And, and the reason it can be

really important to acknowledge

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that's what you're doing is.

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It's because when things get difficult,

if we can know that actually, you know

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what, it's, I'm in a new role now,

this is going to be challenging this

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it's normal for this to be challenging.

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So I think, first of all, that

acknowledgement is really important.

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I'm not.

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just being an ungrateful daughter or a

difficult, I'm not just being, I'm not

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just complaining about being a daughter.

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I'm actually doing something that's

actually becoming really quite

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challenging and really difficult.

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And so I, being able to identify

as a care can really help mentally

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with that of understanding where we

are taking on a new role now and our

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relationship with that loved one might

actually be changing as a result.

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And that's okay.

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And then the other thing is courses.

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is that sometimes when we deny what we're

doing, then we can't ask for help and we

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can't reach out for help from anyone else.

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And so I think being able to

acknowledge what it is that we're

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actually doing is really important.

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I know with parent carers,

this can be a big hurdle.

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Acknowledging that you're a parent carer,

first of all, acknowledging that you

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have a disabled child, and it can take a

long time for people to acknowledge that.

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Partly that's because we have such a

kind of, we live in a society that's

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so ableist and we think of disability as

the worst thing that can happen to you.

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And so to acknowledge that you have

a disabled child or perhaps now your

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parent is disabled or your partner is

now disabled, that can be such a mental

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hurdle for a lot of people because when

we think about that, we just think about

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all of the negative messaging we've

had around disability our entire lives.

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And we might not even be

consciously aware of it.

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We just, it's the water we swim in, so

we're not even necessarily aware of it.

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So being able to acknowledge that you're a

carer first, you have to acknowledge that

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the person you're giving support to needs

that support and cannot manage without it.

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And that can be quite a big

emotional step to do that.

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I know with parents.

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Sometimes that can be difficult

because they won't not acknowledge

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that's what's going on.

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And so that adds another

layer of challenges.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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As we get into this space where,

we're going to be taking on more

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of those roles and taking on more

caring and, okay, starting to accept.

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that this is the work that we're doing,

what are the ways that we can do this in

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a kind of, as gentle and compassionate.

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way to ourselves and to, the people

that we're caring for is possible.

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I'm thinking of, when I became a

mother and how I went so hard on,

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finding out all the information and

reading all the books and trying to

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make sure I did everything perfectly.

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video: And

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Penny & Suzy: it completely took me the

other way, like my experience of early

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motherhood was just so stressful and so

anxiety laden because I've been trying

372

:

so hard to do everything really well.

373

:

I'm wondering if there's

similarities in caring.

374

:

So many similarities.

375

:

And that there are some slight

differences and nuances as well.

376

:

I know that for parent carers.

377

:

it's very much that you've

talked about, but to the extreme.

378

:

And, but when it comes to other family

members who didn't previously need

379

:

that kind of support from us, I

think the acknowledgement first, is

380

:

really helpful to acknowledge that

you're entering a kind of new phase

381

:

of your relationship with them.

382

:

And then really that acknowledgement,

what can be really helpful for is to

383

:

be able to, offer yourself compassion

because, any kind of drastic change in a

384

:

relationship is going to be challenging.

385

:

And if I think probably the number one

thing I would recommend to people is to

386

:

learn a bit more about self compassion and

about how that can support you because.

387

:

like in motherhood, not, no amount

of beating yourself up and studying

388

:

is going to make it easier.

389

:

And it's not going to make

you a better mother either.

390

:

And so I think, the first

thing that we can all do.

391

:

When we're doing something really

challenging and, caring for a family

392

:

member can be extremely challenging.

393

:

To first of all

acknowledge that it's hard,

394

:

And that potentially very hard

and possibly one of the hardest

395

:

things that you have done.

396

:

I think.

397

:

That's a really good place to start.

398

:

And then with that acknowledgement, also

thinking about it, maybe stepping outside

399

:

of yourself a little bit for a second

and think about, okay, if this was my

400

:

best friend going through this, if this

was my best friend who was having to, to

401

:

deal with their parents mood changes, was

having to, rush from kids things to, to

402

:

hospital appointments for parents, to, to

constantly worrying, to never being able

403

:

to turn the phone off in case anything

goes wrong and to be constantly on call.

404

:

If that was my best friend going through

that, I would know that's very difficult

405

:

and I would be really kind to them.

406

:

So I think that's where the

acknowledgement is so important that

407

:

we're in a new phase and we're going

through something really challenging.

408

:

It is so hard to underestimate

how powerful that is.

409

:

And I think in the same way that, that

when we talk about motherhood openly and

410

:

when we know that we're not the only ones

that find motherhood difficult, when we're

411

:

not the only ones who are awake at three

in the morning thinking, what have I done?

412

:

video: I

413

:

Penny & Suzy: don't know how

to look after this creature.

414

:

When we know we're not alone in

this, when we know that this is a

415

:

normal experience of, of motherhood.

416

:

of change, then it just takes

so much of the stress away.

417

:

And I'm, I really loved this piece in

tender where you said, about caring as

418

:

letting go of control and going from how

do I fix this, which I think is definitely

419

:

my default thing when I'm feeling any

kind of anxiety to how can I respond to

420

:

this or how can I make the best of this?

421

:

I thought that was

really beautiful reframe.

422

:

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

423

:

And it's not that I don't

try and control things.

424

:

I really do still try and control things.

425

:

Oh, yeah.

426

:

Would we be here then if we didn't?

427

:

But yeah, the lack of control I think is

one of the hardest things about caring.

428

:

It's probably one of the hardest

things about aging in general, right?

429

:

Because so we just, the more life

experience we have, the more we

430

:

understand deeper into our bones, how

little control you have over anything.

431

:

And I think caring is a part of that.

432

:

And I, so I think, just

acknowledging where we are right now.

433

:

It sounds so flippant, but it

really can be super helpful of,

434

:

this is where we are right now.

435

:

How do we live our best lives

within what we've got right now?

436

:

I remember years ago having this,

my son was, my son is now 14.

437

:

Maybe when he was about eight

or so, having this moment of

438

:

frustration that I was still.

439

:

Completely supervising his baths and

there was still water all over the

440

:

bathroom and there was, shouting both

in happiness and also distress, the

441

:

full works, like having a small child.

442

:

And I remember thinking, how

am I going to do this forever?

443

:

If he needs me to, how am

I going to do this forever?

444

:

And my friends with eight year

olds aren't doing this anymore.

445

:

How am I going to keep doing this?

446

:

And one of the things, and this

still happens, it happens when things

447

:

are really difficult and we're in

the middle of a meltdown and stuff,

448

:

I do still have those feelings of

how am I going to keep doing this?

449

:

They still happen.

450

:

And the only way I know how to deal

with them is to remind myself in that

451

:

moment, I don't have to do it forever.

452

:

I have to just do this right now.

453

:

I just have to do it right now and this

moment will end and it'll probably end

454

:

actually in 15 minutes or 20 minutes

and then everything will be okay.

455

:

And I don't have to do every bath

the rest of his life right now.

456

:

Yes.

457

:

I just have to do this one right now.

458

:

And it's not magic.

459

:

It doesn't mean that I don't

have really hard moments.

460

:

Actually, we had a weekend, a thing

over the weekend that was, we had a

461

:

moment that was extremely difficult.

462

:

My son's a lot bigger now.

463

:

He can sometimes be violent when he

gets upset and it's not his fault

464

:

and we let it go very quickly.

465

:

But in those moments, it's very difficult

and very distressing for both him and

466

:

me and for anyone who might witness it.

467

:

And.

468

:

It is hard in those moments where

things are very difficult and I

469

:

know that if there's any people

who are supporting parents who are

470

:

having a really difficult time, they

will know what I'm talking about.

471

:

It's hard in those moments

to not feel like you have to

472

:

be in this moment forever.

473

:

But I think all we can do in those

really difficult moments is to try.

474

:

to remind ourselves we're

not doing this forever.

475

:

We're doing this very difficult moment

now, and we might have to do it again,

476

:

but it isn't going to last forever.

477

:

And you need to do whatever

you need to do to get yourself

478

:

safely through that moment.

479

:

And self compassion is really helpful.

480

:

I still get very upset when things

go wrong, I do, but one thing I

481

:

think that has, helped for me a lot

is, one thing I've noticed about my

482

:

differences between now and say when

my son was younger and I was a bit more

483

:

overwhelmed, on a regular basis, was

that as I recover really quickly now, so

484

:

I still go to quite difficult places.

485

:

In the same way that he does, I

can get very easily sucked into a

486

:

difficult place with him temporarily.

487

:

But I'm actually now with a lot

of practice, I can I can come

488

:

out the other side quite quickly.

489

:

Actually he's helped me with that quite

a lot because actually he lets go of

490

:

his Meltdowns and upset really quickly.

491

:

Amazingly when he gets really upset,

it doesn't last hours and hours

492

:

necessarily, but it can last a short

time and he gets over it and gets,

493

:

we, we able to move on really quickly.

494

:

And that is really vital because then

all you have to do is get through

495

:

that moment and then you can just get

on your day, get on with your day.

496

:

And I'm wondering, around your writing,

I know that writing has become a career

497

:

for you and it, it's helped you to.

498

:

live the life that you need

to live with your family.

499

:

But I'm wondering as well, if

writing is also an outlet for you,

500

:

If creativity becomes a really

important outlet to you.

501

:

Does it serve that other purpose too?

502

:

Yes, absolutely.

503

:

A hundred percent.

504

:

And it always has.

505

:

I've always done creative work, both

for paid work and also just on the side.

506

:

I can't imagine life without it.

507

:

I really can't.

508

:

And I think when your world It

becomes smaller in, in many ways.

509

:

My world is a lot smaller

than it would be otherwiSe.

510

:

Spent, I spent my twenties living,

moving between New York and

511

:

London and traveling constantly.

512

:

And, I'm from Australia, so

I would go back and forth.

513

:

Quite a bit as well.

514

:

It was always on the road.

515

:

And I had, I remember when I had

kids, I was like, oh, kids can

516

:

have a passport, so that's fine.

517

:

It's not gonna, it's expensive.

518

:

It won't be as often, but it'll be fine.

519

:

And I have a son who can't travel at all.

520

:

Like we go to center parks.

521

:

And that takes all of my courage

and my energy to do that.

522

:

It's brilliant and wonderful,

we don't, we can't really go

523

:

further afield than that with him.

524

:

And so my world is a lot smaller.

525

:

And so part of the way I make my world

bigger is through stories, and through

526

:

writing myself, but also through

the other stories that I consume.

527

:

And it's a way that I can.

528

:

be anywhere, and be where I

need to be at the same time.

529

:

So yeah, it's a huge part.

530

:

In terms of how I look after myself,

the two main things really are work,

531

:

so that I have some money coming

in so I can pay into my pension.

532

:

Just being, just knowing I'm putting

a little bit of money into my pension

533

:

makes me just feel so much better.

534

:

And then the other thing is, yeah,

writing and creativity and also reading.

535

:

That's the other thing as well.

536

:

And I don't, I honestly don't know

where I'd be without those at all.

537

:

So I'm wondering, thinking about the title

of your podcast, which is not too busy

538

:

to write, how we can, in this middle

bit, I feel like for me, my 40s were

539

:

this I woke up to I want to do something.

540

:

I didn't really know what the something

was, but I wanted to do something

541

:

creative, do some more writing.

542

:

video: And

543

:

Penny & Suzy: so a lot of people

find themselves in this point.

544

:

It's I want to do something important

now and do something meaningful.

545

:

And we are at the busiest week.

546

:

probably have ever been.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

So how do we fit in, that space

and that time for creativity to

549

:

breathe, the things that we're really

longing to bring into the world when

550

:

we're also like super, super busy?

551

:

Yeah.

552

:

Yes, the eternal question.

553

:

I think there's a few

things that, that we can do.

554

:

One of them I think is just get really

clear on what it is that you want.

555

:

Because, if we've had small children

in our 30s and now we have slightly

556

:

older children in our 40s, lots

of people divorcing in their 40s.

557

:

Having school aged

children is extremely busy.

558

:

There's so many pulls on our attention.

559

:

There's always something on, yeah.

560

:

There's always something Yeah.

561

:

So I agree.

562

:

Our forties probably are our

busiest times of our lives.

563

:

I think it becomes about.

564

:

being really clear on

what it is that you want.

565

:

And that clarity can really

make a big difference in, into

566

:

how you carve out your time.

567

:

If you are aware of what it is that

you want, then it's so much easier.

568

:

to say no to the things you know

you're just doing because you think

569

:

you should, or you want to do, you

wish you could do, but really it's not

570

:

as big a priority as something else.

571

:

One example of that is my garden.

572

:

I love my garden.

573

:

I would actually love to

have a more beautiful garden.

574

:

I would love to spend

more time in the gardEn.

575

:

but right now, writing Trump's

gardening, and also at the moment

576

:

exercise because I broke my ankle

at the beginning of the year.

577

:

And so I'm doing loads of

physio and trying to get

578

:

that strength back and stuff.

579

:

And so at the moment, things

like, going for a walk is more

580

:

important than, cleaning.

581

:

or doing the gardening

or, those sort of things.

582

:

So I think if we're checking in with

ourself on a fairly regular basis,

583

:

quarterly is a really good idea, check

in with yourself about what it is

584

:

that you can't do everything, because

we're very busy, but what is it that

585

:

you want more than everything else?

586

:

aside from the absolute essentials.

587

:

And then just knowing that can make all

the difference when you have a choice of

588

:

what you're going to do with your time.

589

:

This morning, for instance, I've

been sleeping really badly lately.

590

:

I'm in London.

591

:

The foxes are insane at the moment.

592

:

They're insane.

593

:

I'm getting woken up at five

in the morning, loads because

594

:

of the foxes at the moment.

595

:

And this morning I woke up and I realized

I was not going to go back to sleep.

596

:

So I actually ended up getting myself a

cup of tea and I started working on the

597

:

novel that I'm working on at the moment.

598

:

And that was not my plan to wake

up at five in the morning to work

599

:

on the novel because my son goes to

sleep very late and it's not very

600

:

sensible for me to get up at five.

601

:

Because I don't go to

sleep until about:

602

:

So it's not something I would usually do,

but I was awake and I was a bit like, I

603

:

know what's a priority for me at the

moment, aside from earning money, and

604

:

that is, I want to get this novel written.

605

:

That's what I decided to do

with that time that I had.

606

:

But just knowing that at the moment,

that's prioritizing pretty much

607

:

everything else, is super, super helpful.

608

:

So I'd say that.

609

:

another thing that I recommend with

writers that I'm working with, actually,

610

:

is, that so many people who, I work with.

611

:

Working on, writing projects

that are side projects.

612

:

So even if they're a writer in their

day job, when they're proposing a

613

:

nonfiction book, it's very much on

the side until it's been commissioned.

614

:

It's not yet paid.

615

:

And so one of the things, that I

help writers with is to get those,

616

:

get on with those projects, when

nobody's asked for it yet, basically.

617

:

And so I always recommend, the first

thing I recommend is tell the people

618

:

you live with that you're working on it.

619

:

And so that they know that

you're taking it seriously.

620

:

So whether that's a partner or, children,

if they're a little bit older, they

621

:

can understand so that they know what

you're doing is really important to you.

622

:

You consider it work and

it's important to you.

623

:

Even if it's a, if it's a hobby and you're

not intentioning, you're not, you don't

624

:

have no intention to take it professional.

625

:

Make the, your other members

of the household aware that

626

:

this is super important to you.

627

:

Just that alone can make such a big

difference in how you're able, that other

628

:

people can help facilitate, or at least

not stop you or prevent you from doing it.

629

:

Sometimes we assume that the people

we live with know it's important

630

:

to us, but they don't necessarily.

631

:

And I'm not talking about

obviously very young children.

632

:

Four year olds couldn't care less

if something's important to you.

633

:

And I know those two things seem really

tiny, checking in, understanding

634

:

what you want and then telling other

people that you live with, but they

635

:

can actually be hugely powerful.

636

:

Yeah.

637

:

I feel like those two

are really big as well.

638

:

It's because the first one, checking with

what you really want, but a lot of us, it

639

:

takes a long time to actually get to that.

640

:

It can take a long time.

641

:

What is it?

642

:

What does that look like?

643

:

And then I think the second

one, like saying out loud.

644

:

That's making it real because

once you've told other people,

645

:

you're actually doing the thing.

646

:

Yeah, absolutely.

647

:

Yeah, it is difficult.

648

:

It is, they're not easy things,

but they're super, super powerful.

649

:

And I think, also just acknowledging

that if you're doing one thing, other

650

:

things are going to have to be let go.

651

:

And that's okay.

652

:

I do not go to everything

at my kids schools.

653

:

And in fact, a long time ago, I

got to grips with a lot of things.

654

:

I know other families always prioritize

because I'm one person and my children

655

:

have very different needs, have

always gone to different schools.

656

:

We're in very complex

circumstances with my son.

657

:

And so actually as a family, we've had

to do a lot of things really different.

658

:

And so perhaps.

659

:

I had to get used to that a long time ago.

660

:

There's a lot of things that I

know that some of my friends.

661

:

in partnerships, who, who are still

married and have maybe been able

662

:

to do a very high level of high

touch parenting, shall we say.

663

:

And it's hard to acknowledge that maybe

some of that needs to be let go of in

664

:

order to make room for other things.

665

:

So I think really sitting down and

working out at this stage, right

666

:

now, the phase you're in right

now, what is important right now.

667

:

And it might be that actually you're

coming to a phase where, you can say no

668

:

to a certain activity that one of your

kids wants to do because you can't drive

669

:

half an hour on a Tuesday or whatever,

because actually, That time now is for

670

:

you that you've allocated to do something

that you really need to do at this stage.

671

:

And those are difficult.

672

:

Nobody can answer those

questions except, you.

673

:

And what it looks like for you and me

is going to be completely different.

674

:

And that's okay.

675

:

It doesn't have to look

like anybody else's family.

676

:

This is actually one thing

that's been really interesting

677

:

about having a disabled child.

678

:

And also.

679

:

being divorced and also having

no family in this country.

680

:

I have these differences in my

family that I know, mean that

681

:

I've just had to do things a little

bit different to everybody else.

682

:

And I had to get used to that idea

very early on, that it doesn't look

683

:

like how it looked when I was a kid.

684

:

And it doesn't look like how

most of my friends families looK.

685

:

and, just things like, I can't take

my two kids to the same activity and

686

:

I haven't been able to for years.

687

:

And I just, when I see sometimes my

friends say, yeah, I took the two

688

:

kids to do blah, blah, blah, blah,

at the same time on the holidays.

689

:

And I'm like, Oh God, that's

mind blowing, amazing.

690

:

But because I had to get used to that a

long time ago, we've also got used to

691

:

doing other things that are different.

692

:

And in some ways that's been a bit

of a weird blessing to get used to

693

:

being a bit of an oddball family.

694

:

So I would say look inwards as

well, rather than outwards to

695

:

what everybody else is doing.

696

:

Because

697

:

video: It

698

:

Penny & Suzy: might look like everyone

else is doing things a certain way,

699

:

but actually you'd be surprised.

700

:

We're all yeah, I think we're all

just, yeah, we're all just winging it.

701

:

Yeah, absolutely.

702

:

Absolutely.

703

:

So thank you for all of that.

704

:

I'd like to just like end today

really just by asking you like what

705

:

your idea of a happy middle might

look like and how might we get there?

706

:

I think perhaps.

707

:

video: It

708

:

Penny & Suzy: would be easy if

someone looked at my life on the

709

:

surface to be like, That sounds pretty

terrible, some of the stuff that

710

:

we have to deal with as a famIly.

711

:

video: but

712

:

Penny & Suzy: it's not.

713

:

I have a really good life that has some

difficult, really difficult bits in it.

714

:

And I'm definitely not going to sit

here and pretend some of it is not

715

:

extremely difficult because it is.

716

:

But all around that, there's

a lot that's really beautiful.

717

:

And I just think If we get a bit hung up

on the idea of it all has to be amazing

718

:

for us to have a really good life, I

think that can be a bit problematic.

719

:

, and the only thing I can equate

it to is looking back on when

720

:

both of my children were babies.

721

:

And.

722

:

I think about that first year

and how challenging that was,

723

:

but I just think, God, there were

also so many incredible moments.

724

:

And I'm really lucky that

I remember it that way.

725

:

I know that not everyone

remembers that time that way.

726

:

But, with all of the challenges.

727

:

I look back and I see a photo

of them or see a photo of

728

:

us doing something together.

729

:

And I think, Oh, there

was so many good bits.

730

:

And I think if we can remember that

in the present, that, On one evening

731

:

last over the long weekend, we had

a really tough hour or two that

732

:

was really awful and challenging.

733

:

And then actually, then the

next day was totally fine and

734

:

had some really great bits.

735

:

I think if we can just remember it.

736

:

remember the good along

with the challenges.

737

:

It can just, yeah.

738

:

So many things in my life are

going really lovely right noW.

739

:

and I think we, yeah, we

can't let ourselves get sucked

740

:

in by the challenging bits.

741

:

I guess it gives, I guess all

of it together makes our life

742

:

very colorful, doesn't it?

743

:

Yeah.

744

:

So just being with all of it.

745

:

. I love that.

746

:

Thank you.

747

:

And thanks so much for coming along.

748

:

It's been a total joy speaking to you.

749

:

Pleasure.

750

:

Thank you so much for having me.

751

:

Thanks, Penny.

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