Shownotes
In this episode, attorneys Hugh and Christine discuss the community feedback from the bet.
The hosts take a critical look at delays and the length of time it takes for courts to enter orders. These have real life consequences for the constituents that the judges' were elected to represent.
Christine poses questions about a local family court judge that has a personal podcast, yet takes months to issue an order.
The episode concludes with a discussion of practicing in city courts vs the county court in Kentucky.
Transcripts
Shut your bitch ass up.
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S-Y-B-A-U.
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Never seen it before.
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I
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neither.
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I like it.
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I do too.
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/ You are listening to
The Judgemental Podcast.
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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds
Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app
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that empowers you to judge the judges.
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It's pastime for judicial accountability
and transparency within the courts.
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Prepare for sharp insights, candid
critiques, and unshakable honesty from
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two lawyers determined to save the system.
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We need some justice.
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Justice, my fine justice.
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And I wanna ring, be in public.
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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.
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Yeah.
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Christine: All right, let's start by
talking about our reporting on Tuesday.
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Have you seen the feedback online?
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Hugh: I have.
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Um, and it's funny, the
different platforms have
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completely different feedback.
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I noticed on like one of the platforms,
everything is positive and everyone's
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talking about, you know, good on
you for exposing this and like, you
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know, all this supportive stuff.
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And then you'll go to the
next platform and it will be.
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A little bit more antagonistic.
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Christine: Yeah.
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I think TikTok for sure, I can tell that
some of the judges, I would believe have
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told their friends to go and post, like,
my besties a judge, they work hard.
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Um, which thank y'all so much for that
because that boost us up in the algorithm.
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Yeah.
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So get us out to as
many people as possible.
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We love the love, we love the
hate, we love the questions.
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We love it all because
the goal of judgy too.
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And I do think we should talk
about this because I have my own
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perspectives on judges, some judges
that I may think do a good job.
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You may adamantly disagree with me.
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Yes.
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But judgy is not you.
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It is not me.
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Judgy.
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We kind of created, from my perspective,
we're gonna just judge is gonna
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allow people to judge the judges.
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Um, we want the good, we want
the bad, we want the ugly.
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We just want accountability.
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So,
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Hugh: you
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Christine: know, what
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Hugh: are
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Christine: your
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Hugh: thoughts on that?
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I think it's really important and
it's gonna be harder to get the
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good because it's not sensational.
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It's not the kind of thing
that's gonna be viral and.
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It's sort of the world we live
in, but it's really important
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that we have the good on there.
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Mm-hmm.
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We have people reach out and talk about
stories, and we have actually had people
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you know, I've seen messages about Yeah.
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You know, that are supportive and we want
to, we want to have those stories too.
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The vast majority of people that
reach out to us are with sort of
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horror stories and, you know, related
to what we reported on Tuesday.
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I, you know, from my, my perspective,
I know that there were some judges
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there that weren't running, you
know, that, that weren't sitting in
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court and having hearings that day.
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There were probably some that were
in the building, and that's fine.
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And I get that just because your
docket isn't open doesn't mean
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you're not necessarily working.
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Right.
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But I also know that was important to
me to show what I experienced fairly
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recently as a practitioner, when
I would go over and I would have.
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Orders that needed to be signed,
I would have simple orders that
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would take 20 seconds for someone
to sign that would let me get into a
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case so I could avert an emergency.
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Right.
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Things like that, that I just couldn't
find anyone and be constantly being
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told by staff when I try to, uh, that
there's a way you can reach the judge's
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chambers at the end of the hall by, you
know, buzzing back and the staff member
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will tell you, you know, uh, the judge
is out or the judge is on the bench,
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you know, but if you wait around 15
minutes, she'll be off and you know, I'll
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bring you back and you can, you know,
she'll sign that order for you to have
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access to a case or something like that.
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Yeah.
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Hugh: That it just, there were certain
times of day, usually in the afternoon
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or certain times of the week, usually on
Friday, that I would just regularly be
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told that, oh, the judge just isn't here.
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And I just wouldn't go.
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Even when my office was a couple
blocks from the courthouse, I
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wouldn't go after three o'clock
ever to go try to find a judge.
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And so.
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I think that's one of the reasons why we
didn't go over there at three o'clock.
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I mean, when, when we said, let's, let's
talk about going over just at random
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times and seeing, seeing who's there
and what's going on in the courthouse.
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We said we'd never go over after
three, certainly never after four,
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because we, we know that, I mean,
it's just hardly anybody's ever there.
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Now I have
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Christine: the full expectation
at three o'clock there should
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be judges in the building.
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Hugh: Oh, I have the full expectation.
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And I think people would
be interested to see that.
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Yeah.
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I just, it was more interesting to
me to go after lunch and 30 minutes
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after lunch so people, you know,
you're not just seeing if someone got
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back, you know, 10, 15 minutes late
for lunch or something like that.
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I mean, if you have a hearing, your
first hearing after lunch gets canceled
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or something, and you will just
take a little bit longer at lunch.
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Everybody's gonna do that.
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I mean, that's, everybody's
gonna do that at a job.
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I'm sorry.
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I mean, people, that's just, I would, I
mean, 10, 5, 10 minutes, but we, yeah.
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30 minutes in.
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Mm-hmm.
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The day has started back.
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And so my, my issue with it is I don't
have a, I guess I wasn't coming at
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that from any particular perspective
other than it really shocked me and I
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thought people would be shocked by it.
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Yeah.
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And when the next part that we talk about
when we start reporting on how far out
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hearings are in divisions, that's gonna
be really interesting because, okay, let's
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just assume judges are in the courthouse.
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Every single one that wasn't on the bench,
that, that at least, you know, there
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was one judge in family court that had,
uh, that they were off that day, right?
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That there wasn't a docket that day.
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That's fine.
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Every, everybody does that.
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Everybody takes time off.
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And, and maybe it was just set aside
to write orders or whatever, but of all
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those judges who had things on their
calendar and weren't in the courtroom.
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Why couldn't there be a hearing?
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And I know, so we were there on a
Tuesday, on the previous Monday, there
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were hundreds of attorneys that were
getting hearing dates from the court
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and they were going in the back.
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And they have an issue that, you
know, a lot of them can wait.
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A lot of family court issues,
surprise, surprise, deal with
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important urgent things related
to kids medical care, education.
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I mean, there, there are a lot
of motions that we're on about
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school selection for the next year.
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And you might think, okay, there's
still a month and a half left.
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That's not enough time.
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It's not even worth bringing
the motion now over there
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because it will take so long.
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And those attorneys, some of them were
being told that there wouldn't be even
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a short hearing time in court until
the end of the year or early next year.
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Yeah.
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And so that's why that, that was my
issue, is like, okay, if that's the case.
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It's not because you have so many
things scheduled on the docket
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because nobody is over there.
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Christine: Well, and it's also like,
I mean, you look at district court six
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of the 16, which, you know, I guess in
hindsight, if I think about it, and I
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thought about this last night, juvenile
court should have been, could have been
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going on and it could have been closed
and we didn't see an open courtroom.
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So that's entirely possible.
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We need to check for that next time.
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Um, and if we made a mistake and there
were seven of the 16, I'll still have
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won the bet and have that would be 12.
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I still would've been owed the
beer, but I will apologize.
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But district court, they're not doing a
whole heck of a lot of written orders.
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Okay.
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There's a lot of, in the dockets stuff
being argued, you know, preliminary
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hearings, it's just a matter of
finding probable cause, ending it
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up to circuit court traffic tickets.
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They're just disposing of stuff.
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Um, and so the fact that there were six
in the afternoon and I believe online
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now they have six in the morning,
six in the afternoon, you know.
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There's a significant backlog in district
court, from my understanding, significant.
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And now we don't have enough data on
that because they don't collect it for
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what I consider to be obvious reasons.
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But, um, that being said, what, what are
they've set up a system that effectively
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allows them to work part-time on $141,000.
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That's a problem.
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That's a big problem.
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Hugh: Yeah.
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I mean, if that's, if
that's what's happening,
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Christine: if Yeah.
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Hugh: That that, that
should bother people.
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It certainly bothers me.
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I have, I've practiced in district
court, but it's been many years.
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And nothing that I had was
the kind of thing that would
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just get delayed in court.
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They were smaller things that you could
put on the docket, you know, being a
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private attorney, you could put it on for
the next day usually, or two days later.
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Every now and then, you'd have
something in probate court that you
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would schedule, you know, further out.
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But it's usually because there's
a waiting period before you can
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have a final hearing or something.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And, and so I, I just didn't encounter it.
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I did encounter on every single case that
I practiced in family court for 20 years,
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but especially in the last five or six.
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Right.
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Like, and there is a great
variance between the divisions.
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Some divisions can get you in much
faster or have a good system of, if
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there's a cancellation, we will reach
out to people to say, this canceled.
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We, we know you were trying to get in
there, we're going down the list in order.
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And maybe in
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Christine: 10 years I
never had that happen.
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Oh, that could have been the old guard.
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I'm literally, and if
I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
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I'll ask my old paralegals,
but I never had that happen.
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Hugh: You know, you have to ask for it.
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I don't think it's something that, you
know, that people know about, but I, there
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are, I would always ask, so if I had a
client that was gonna be prejudiced badly
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by the delay in a hearing, and if you, uh,
in a family court action are representing
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the financially disadvantaged person in
the situation, let's say somebody just
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emptied the bank accounts, took possession
of all the money at the very beginning
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and ran off, and, and your client is
left without access to any funds and
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sitting in a house that where stuff has
to be paid for, maybe has the kids with
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them, you need access to the courts.
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And so I would always ask, okay, I
understand we can't get a hearing date
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before this date, can we, if you have a
cancellation, would you reach out to me?
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And some of the divisions
would absolutely do it.
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And.
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It wouldn't happen most of the
time because there might not be
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a cancellation that, um, and, and
sometimes if there was both attorneys,
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you know, had to be also be available.
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So,
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yeah.
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Hugh: You know, it's, it's also hard
to match schedules with attorneys.
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I mean, uh, to have a court have
a hearing date and both attorneys
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be available and your witnesses be
available, that is, that is difficult.
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But more and more I just found
that I would just have to tell
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the client it's probably gonna be
three to six months before we can
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get into court to resolve this.
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Well, we don't need much time
give us like 15, 20 minutes.
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Right.
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We can go in there and
it is just really simple.
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That's just not how it works.
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There is, the shortest hearing
that we're gonna get is 30 minutes.
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00:10:27,438 --> 00:10:31,158
The next 30 minutes hearing in,
you know, two weeks ago when I was
232
00:10:31,158 --> 00:10:32,808
in motion hour was six months out.
233
00:10:32,868 --> 00:10:33,153
That's insane.
234
00:10:33,158 --> 00:10:33,258
Insane.
235
00:10:33,258 --> 00:10:35,568
I can't only imagine that we're
gonna get anything sooner than that.
236
00:10:35,748 --> 00:10:37,758
And some of the divisions,
like I said, it would be.
237
00:10:38,133 --> 00:10:40,383
It might be a month and a
half, it might be two months.
238
00:10:40,443 --> 00:10:44,203
And if you were scheduling it I always
found if you were scheduling it at a
239
00:10:44,203 --> 00:10:49,063
case management conference, which is
midweek not in the cattle call docket
240
00:10:49,113 --> 00:10:52,203
of a motion hour where you're competing
against everybody else for days.
241
00:10:52,203 --> 00:10:52,503
And so, well, a case
242
00:10:52,503 --> 00:10:55,053
Christine: management conference though,
I would say for listeners is what I would
243
00:10:55,053 --> 00:10:58,263
consider kind of like a pretrial it,
if you're, if you think of criminals.
244
00:10:58,323 --> 00:10:58,593
Yeah.
245
00:10:58,593 --> 00:10:59,133
It's just like
246
00:10:59,193 --> 00:11:00,573
Hugh: when I first started
practicing, they were called
247
00:11:00,573 --> 00:11:01,923
pretrials, even the family court.
248
00:11:01,923 --> 00:11:06,333
So yeah, I, I think they may have had
a midweek, you know, something cancel
249
00:11:06,333 --> 00:11:09,393
and at the, and I would regularly
get those at case management comes.
250
00:11:09,393 --> 00:11:10,773
We had somebody, something cancel.
251
00:11:10,803 --> 00:11:12,933
Uh, would this work week work for you?
252
00:11:12,933 --> 00:11:18,393
You might get in, you know, in the
next 3, 4, 6 weeks or three months.
253
00:11:18,393 --> 00:11:23,103
But by and large, if you are scheduling
a hearing, let alone a trial.
254
00:11:23,463 --> 00:11:28,473
I mean, a trial takes, if you need a
full day trial or even a half day trial,
255
00:11:28,473 --> 00:11:33,213
you're looking at many months out and
it just, you just have to sit and wait.
256
00:11:33,393 --> 00:11:33,513
Christine: Yeah.
257
00:11:33,513 --> 00:11:36,683
We just had, I just know when I follow
up on the docket, like I'll look at
258
00:11:36,683 --> 00:11:39,263
somebody's docket and then I'll go
back and see if a settlement happened.
259
00:11:39,353 --> 00:11:43,403
And I know Division seven had a full
day trial, but that was canceled.
260
00:11:43,403 --> 00:11:45,503
And I don't believe any
hearings were conducted.
261
00:11:45,773 --> 00:11:48,893
But I do think, like, let's, for
example, you know, let's let the
262
00:11:48,893 --> 00:11:50,363
TikTok judge have a break for today.
263
00:11:50,363 --> 00:11:54,473
But we have one judge that has
done, I believe, like a hundred
264
00:11:54,473 --> 00:11:56,123
podcast, a family court judge.
265
00:11:56,513 --> 00:11:58,013
Um, and we're sitting
here doing a podcast.
266
00:11:58,013 --> 00:11:58,943
How time consuming is this?
267
00:12:00,023 --> 00:12:00,803
Hugh: Oh, nothing at all.
268
00:12:00,953 --> 00:12:02,723
Just a few hours during the work week
269
00:12:03,173 --> 00:12:04,073
Christine: and then the editing.
270
00:12:04,193 --> 00:12:04,493
Hugh: Yeah.
271
00:12:04,493 --> 00:12:05,783
I mean, I don't know.
272
00:12:05,783 --> 00:12:08,663
I'll let you know how long, once I
find it, finish editing our first one.
273
00:12:08,993 --> 00:12:11,393
So it's, it's, it's time consuming.
274
00:12:12,053 --> 00:12:13,613
Beyond and your courtroom
is sitting empty.
275
00:12:13,793 --> 00:12:13,943
Christine: Yeah.
276
00:12:13,943 --> 00:12:14,843
It's time consuming.
277
00:12:14,843 --> 00:12:18,413
And then also, like, it's just obviously
right now, you and I, but this is Durwin
278
00:12:18,413 --> 00:12:22,103
Webb, um, and he had the perspective,
a matter of perspective with Judge
279
00:12:22,103 --> 00:12:25,643
Durwin Webb, which if you notice there
was a name change there, which I'm
280
00:12:25,643 --> 00:12:28,073
just, you know, being very speculative.
281
00:12:28,073 --> 00:12:31,883
But I think there probably was a complaint
for using the judge name on a podcast.
282
00:12:32,033 --> 00:12:32,363
Hugh: Oh.
283
00:12:32,393 --> 00:12:36,623
But I, I was, I didn't, I didn't
know anything about any of that.
284
00:12:36,683 --> 00:12:36,923
Yeah.
285
00:12:37,133 --> 00:12:38,153
You didn't know he had a podcast?
286
00:12:38,198 --> 00:12:38,558
I did not.
287
00:12:38,813 --> 00:12:39,473
Christine: Oh my gosh.
288
00:12:39,473 --> 00:12:39,683
Okay.
289
00:12:39,683 --> 00:12:41,363
It's like literally the most
boring thing you've ever seen in
290
00:12:41,363 --> 00:12:42,953
your life, but tons of episodes.
291
00:12:42,953 --> 00:12:45,213
And it is actually shot at Frazier Museum.
292
00:12:45,843 --> 00:12:46,503
Hugh: Oh, that's nice.
293
00:12:46,503 --> 00:12:46,833
It is
294
00:12:46,833 --> 00:12:48,903
Christine: gorgeous background,
and you can tell the editing
295
00:12:48,903 --> 00:12:50,223
has done very, very well.
296
00:12:50,463 --> 00:12:53,463
Which I also think is kind
of begs the question of,
297
00:12:53,463 --> 00:12:55,773
Hugh: that's a lot more time
consuming to do something on
298
00:12:55,773 --> 00:12:57,903
location and deal with Yeah.
299
00:12:58,053 --> 00:12:59,643
Christine: And also what's that cost?
300
00:13:00,993 --> 00:13:01,233
Well,
301
00:13:01,318 --> 00:13:01,998
Hugh: I mean that's,
302
00:13:03,528 --> 00:13:06,258
Christine: to rent the Fraser
Museum, I mean, maybe, but maybe, I
303
00:13:06,258 --> 00:13:08,388
Hugh: mean, if it makes money
or you're using your independent
304
00:13:08,388 --> 00:13:09,020
money, I mean, I don't.
305
00:13:10,098 --> 00:13:10,968
Christine: Well, I looked it up.
306
00:13:10,968 --> 00:13:13,848
I couldn't find an LLC and I actually
called Frazier Museum when I was
307
00:13:13,848 --> 00:13:17,268
interested in starting the podcast and
was like, Hey, I wanna start a podcast.
308
00:13:17,268 --> 00:13:18,168
You guys have this an option.
309
00:13:18,168 --> 00:13:19,518
And they were like, what
are you talking about?
310
00:13:19,908 --> 00:13:22,698
Um, which also kind of begs the
question to me, are these any
311
00:13:22,698 --> 00:13:25,998
of these judges getting favors
using their ju judge status?
312
00:13:25,998 --> 00:13:26,628
You know what I mean?
313
00:13:26,628 --> 00:13:27,708
Like, Hey, I'm a judge.
314
00:13:27,708 --> 00:13:29,688
Can I get access to this?
315
00:13:29,688 --> 00:13:31,818
And I, I, I have, I'm
just asking questions.
316
00:13:31,818 --> 00:13:33,108
I'm not saying anything for sure.
317
00:13:33,108 --> 00:13:33,288
Yeah.
318
00:13:33,348 --> 00:13:34,368
Hugh: But also, I mean,
319
00:13:36,978 --> 00:13:39,888
saying, hi, I'm judged so
and so, do you have space?
320
00:13:39,888 --> 00:13:42,678
Like if somebody says, oh, it's a
judge, maybe we would let them do that.
321
00:13:42,678 --> 00:13:43,818
They're not gonna trash the place.
322
00:13:43,818 --> 00:13:44,988
They're gonna be, you know, better.
323
00:13:44,988 --> 00:13:48,828
And, and the ordinary reasons
for us not renting the place
324
00:13:48,828 --> 00:13:50,268
out maybe would be different.
325
00:13:50,688 --> 00:13:51,108
I don't know.
326
00:13:51,168 --> 00:13:51,318
I'm
327
00:13:51,318 --> 00:13:53,328
Christine: gonna have to
consult the federal statue on
328
00:13:53,328 --> 00:13:54,798
public corruption on that one.
329
00:13:54,798 --> 00:13:55,218
I don't know.
330
00:13:55,218 --> 00:13:56,658
That makes me nervous.
331
00:13:56,658 --> 00:13:58,608
I certainly wouldn't
advise that a judge do it.
332
00:13:58,608 --> 00:14:00,798
And of course, I'm not making
any sort of allegation.
333
00:14:00,798 --> 00:14:00,829
I agree.
334
00:14:00,888 --> 00:14:01,938
I'm just saying what I've seen.
335
00:14:02,568 --> 00:14:03,048
Hugh: I agree.
336
00:14:03,048 --> 00:14:03,468
No, I, I agree with that.
337
00:14:03,468 --> 00:14:06,768
I'm just, yeah, I mean, I
would imagine that it's a title
338
00:14:06,768 --> 00:14:08,118
that opens doors, whether you.
339
00:14:08,703 --> 00:14:10,233
Actively seek it or not.
340
00:14:10,263 --> 00:14:10,683
Yeah.
341
00:14:10,983 --> 00:14:11,373
Christine: Well, and people
342
00:14:11,373 --> 00:14:12,008
Hugh: know who you are.
343
00:14:12,243 --> 00:14:13,833
Christine: That division is one.
344
00:14:13,833 --> 00:14:17,143
And, and to give the benefit to
Derwin Webb, that is a division
345
00:14:17,143 --> 00:14:20,803
that I can say with pretty much
a hundred percent certainty.
346
00:14:21,093 --> 00:14:23,463
You, there is demeanor from the bench.
347
00:14:23,463 --> 00:14:27,633
You are not gonna be chastised, you are
not gonna be spoken to in a way that is
348
00:14:27,633 --> 00:14:32,013
just like soul crushing, whether litigant,
pro se attorney, there is definitely a
349
00:14:32,013 --> 00:14:33,933
decorum from the bench in that court.
350
00:14:34,083 --> 00:14:34,233
It,
351
00:14:34,293 --> 00:14:34,683
Hugh: yeah.
352
00:14:34,683 --> 00:14:41,103
And it's, I mean, I would say more so
than most any place I've ever practiced.
353
00:14:41,103 --> 00:14:42,634
In fact, I've had some cases Yeah.
354
00:14:42,634 --> 00:14:46,953
That were just crazy and you left
exhausted and they were fun to practice.
355
00:14:46,983 --> 00:14:47,073
Mm-hmm.
356
00:14:47,313 --> 00:14:49,773
But you just, what is gonna happen today?
357
00:14:49,773 --> 00:14:52,443
I have no idea what's gonna happen in
that courtroom, but the one thing you did
358
00:14:52,443 --> 00:14:57,783
know was you just never expect anything
out of the ordinary from the bench.
359
00:14:57,873 --> 00:15:01,843
And you knew that everything would be
the decorum would be maintained by all
360
00:15:01,843 --> 00:15:02,323
parties, a hundred, all the parties.
361
00:15:02,383 --> 00:15:05,173
You would make sure
everybody acted correctly.
362
00:15:05,653 --> 00:15:06,373
He would do it.
363
00:15:06,883 --> 00:15:11,713
In a very authoritative way by,
but still very professional.
364
00:15:12,073 --> 00:15:12,178
A hundred percent.
365
00:15:12,178 --> 00:15:16,663
And, uh, yeah, it was always just a
pleasure to try cases in that courtroom.
366
00:15:16,663 --> 00:15:17,178
Now, now
367
00:15:17,183 --> 00:15:19,993
Christine: pleasure is a, like a, a
different word for me just because of the
368
00:15:19,993 --> 00:15:21,283
rules of evidence and things like that.
369
00:15:21,283 --> 00:15:21,343
Yeah.
370
00:15:21,343 --> 00:15:25,603
But knowing your client wasn't gonna
sob and like on the way out was
371
00:15:25,603 --> 00:15:27,583
definitely something you could guarantee.
372
00:15:27,673 --> 00:15:28,033
Hugh: Oh yeah.
373
00:15:28,033 --> 00:15:28,363
No, no.
374
00:15:28,363 --> 00:15:33,703
That I am, the client experience intent
was that, you know, I may not win.
375
00:15:33,703 --> 00:15:34,573
The judge listened.
376
00:15:34,633 --> 00:15:34,723
Mm-hmm.
377
00:15:34,993 --> 00:15:36,283
You could tell he paid attention.
378
00:15:36,283 --> 00:15:38,203
He wasn't looking at his
computer screen or his phone.
379
00:15:38,773 --> 00:15:44,193
And if, well, in my experience and
if an objection was made or you were
380
00:15:44,193 --> 00:15:48,843
arguing some finer point of law, I loved
the fact that he was curious enough to
381
00:15:48,843 --> 00:15:52,503
wanna know more about it, ask, you know,
and ask you to explain and to tell you
382
00:15:52,503 --> 00:15:54,123
where you got that from and hear it out.
383
00:15:54,393 --> 00:15:57,993
And then if it was complex enough
and he wanted to go read about it
384
00:15:57,993 --> 00:15:59,313
before he ruled on it, he would.
385
00:15:59,838 --> 00:16:03,048
He would take that under that issue
under submission and move on to
386
00:16:03,048 --> 00:16:06,078
the next thing so we could properly
take the time to look at it instead
387
00:16:06,078 --> 00:16:08,298
of a knee jerk reaction about it.
388
00:16:08,298 --> 00:16:10,008
There was actually a curiosity there.
389
00:16:10,098 --> 00:16:10,308
Yeah.
390
00:16:10,338 --> 00:16:10,938
To get it right.
391
00:16:10,938 --> 00:16:11,238
I.
392
00:16:11,853 --> 00:16:14,973
Christine: And so yeah, now we said all
the positive things, but now talking about
393
00:16:14,973 --> 00:16:19,023
the, the podcast, I will say, and I'll say
this pretty confidently, and especially
394
00:16:19,023 --> 00:16:22,923
from the people that I've talked to that
are pro se as well, his division takes
395
00:16:22,923 --> 00:16:24,663
the longest to get an order in Louisville.
396
00:16:25,053 --> 00:16:26,358
I mean, you're talking in Louisville?
397
00:16:26,358 --> 00:16:27,238
Yeah, in Louisville for sure.
398
00:16:27,418 --> 00:16:28,198
Um, I mean, it's not
399
00:16:28,198 --> 00:16:31,533
Hugh: even close to, to the
longest if you're looking the
400
00:16:31,533 --> 00:16:32,883
Louisville region, but Yeah.
401
00:16:33,298 --> 00:16:34,533
But in Jefferson County, yeah.
402
00:16:34,983 --> 00:16:37,983
Christine: And so he takes the
absolute longest to write orders.
403
00:16:37,983 --> 00:16:40,983
You know, I have people that have
reached out to me that I've verified,
404
00:16:40,983 --> 00:16:44,853
you know, that you're talking about if
you're being denied access to your child,
405
00:16:44,883 --> 00:16:49,323
and even if you win and get access to
your child, but if you're waiting six
406
00:16:49,323 --> 00:16:50,943
months, nine months, 12 months, yeah.
407
00:16:50,943 --> 00:16:54,783
To get that, you know, that is,
there's no way, shape, or form.
408
00:16:54,843 --> 00:16:59,373
I don't care what, there's no way that
that outcome is in the best interest
409
00:16:59,373 --> 00:17:02,613
of a child, which is supposed to be the
goal and the standard for family court.
410
00:17:02,793 --> 00:17:04,798
Hugh: Yeah, no, that, that
was, it was very frustrating.
411
00:17:04,798 --> 00:17:05,157
We had.
412
00:17:06,153 --> 00:17:08,117
I've had cases that had
safety issues mm-hmm.
413
00:17:08,198 --> 00:17:09,813
That had big decisions.
414
00:17:09,813 --> 00:17:09,903
Yep.
415
00:17:09,903 --> 00:17:13,713
After, after hearings that, and I'll
be honest, there were, there were
416
00:17:13,713 --> 00:17:15,153
hearings that had some safety issues.
417
00:17:15,373 --> 00:17:20,373
I, I had a case that got transferred
out of his division just because
418
00:17:20,373 --> 00:17:22,173
of the amount of work it would be.
419
00:17:22,173 --> 00:17:25,413
I think he got another huge case
that would be very time consuming and
420
00:17:25,443 --> 00:17:29,493
they reallocated hours just so that
one judge didn't end up with cases.
421
00:17:29,493 --> 00:17:32,523
We, we were, we, our case management
conference were a day, day and
422
00:17:32,523 --> 00:17:35,463
a half each, and we would have
them often, so we probably needed
423
00:17:35,463 --> 00:17:37,443
14, 15 days of trial in the case.
424
00:17:37,803 --> 00:17:44,523
And he got us in within two weeks for the
emergency hearing and heard everything.
425
00:17:44,523 --> 00:17:47,313
And it was like he was
taking it very seriously.
426
00:17:47,313 --> 00:17:48,483
And I, I felt very good about that.
427
00:17:48,483 --> 00:17:53,253
But then the order didn't come for a
long time and there was this sort of
428
00:17:53,253 --> 00:17:56,673
status quo that was going on with both
parents having access to the child.
429
00:17:56,673 --> 00:18:01,323
That was, at least from our
perspective, our client's perspective.
430
00:18:01,323 --> 00:18:01,833
Dangerous.
431
00:18:01,863 --> 00:18:01,923
Yeah.
432
00:18:02,403 --> 00:18:03,873
And by the time.
433
00:18:04,248 --> 00:18:08,028
The order came out and it was really
only after it got transferred and
434
00:18:08,028 --> 00:18:12,498
the, and the new judge reached out
to Judge Webb to say, we're, you
435
00:18:12,498 --> 00:18:15,228
know, we can't move forward with
certain things until you rule on this.
436
00:18:15,718 --> 00:18:19,948
By the time it came out, the status
quo had been going on long enough that
437
00:18:19,948 --> 00:18:22,768
the friend of the court, or I guess
the guardian ad lit him on the case.
438
00:18:23,278 --> 00:18:25,468
Had just sort of said, well,
it can't be that dangerous.
439
00:18:25,528 --> 00:18:29,368
But who knows would've happened
during that time if all of the things
440
00:18:29,368 --> 00:18:30,868
that we proved at that hearing.
441
00:18:31,078 --> 00:18:31,348
Yeah.
442
00:18:31,378 --> 00:18:34,918
Were, you know, had actually had
actually, you know, our worst, the
443
00:18:34,918 --> 00:18:37,618
worst case scenarios had come to
light just because we were waiting and
444
00:18:37,618 --> 00:18:38,848
there were no protections in place.
445
00:18:38,938 --> 00:18:42,928
Christine: And then you have time, um,
to go record a port, uh, podcast and
446
00:18:42,928 --> 00:18:47,738
you have a time to go visit and take
pictures at school with children, you
447
00:18:47,738 --> 00:18:49,418
know, and, and on a regular basis.
448
00:18:49,418 --> 00:18:51,308
And I do, I taught at a Title one school.
449
00:18:51,308 --> 00:18:51,638
Loved it.
450
00:18:51,638 --> 00:18:52,238
Love the kids.
451
00:18:52,238 --> 00:18:54,638
If you wanna have hope for this
country, you need to go do that.
452
00:18:54,968 --> 00:18:56,258
Um, hardest job I ever had.
453
00:18:56,258 --> 00:19:00,398
But that being, and it's great for judges
to go meet, but when I was in Asia,
454
00:19:00,398 --> 00:19:04,188
and I know you've been to Asia several
years ago, I, I distinctly remember.
455
00:19:04,598 --> 00:19:09,008
In Cambodia, and this was probably a
year, year and a half ago, seeing all
456
00:19:09,008 --> 00:19:13,838
of the pictures on each street corner
of like the politicians, the kings,
457
00:19:13,838 --> 00:19:16,748
all of that surrounded by children.
458
00:19:17,028 --> 00:19:19,938
And it really struck me because I
thought about a lot of the propaganda,
459
00:19:19,938 --> 00:19:22,608
or I'll use the word propaganda that
our judges do, where they're taking
460
00:19:22,608 --> 00:19:26,028
pictures at elementary schools and
middle schools and in the middle of
461
00:19:26,028 --> 00:19:27,858
the day, which is also their workday.
462
00:19:28,168 --> 00:19:31,888
And just the notion that, that is
so disarming to the general public,
463
00:19:31,888 --> 00:19:33,328
oh, hey, they care about kids.
464
00:19:33,668 --> 00:19:35,378
And I'm not saying that they don't,
465
00:19:35,378 --> 00:19:40,178
Hugh: I was about to say, I, it would
be hard to, hard to want to be in
466
00:19:40,178 --> 00:19:44,378
that position, in that job without
caring, not caring about kids.
467
00:19:44,378 --> 00:19:45,128
I would think,
468
00:19:45,338 --> 00:19:47,738
Christine: well, what's, I
mean, what's more important?
469
00:19:47,828 --> 00:19:52,268
You know, you got a kid that's serious,
in serious, you know, risk and you can't
470
00:19:52,268 --> 00:19:53,678
issue an order to protect that child.
471
00:19:53,678 --> 00:19:55,898
But you can go have a photo
op at a Title one school.
472
00:19:55,898 --> 00:19:55,988
Well,
473
00:19:56,888 --> 00:19:58,658
Hugh: I, I'm not saying
that that's incorrect.
474
00:19:58,778 --> 00:20:01,268
What I, what I, what I
think though is that.
475
00:20:03,033 --> 00:20:06,723
The, the court process, it, it
just becomes like a machine.
476
00:20:06,843 --> 00:20:11,493
And the cases are like pieces of a
machine and they're less actual real kids.
477
00:20:11,493 --> 00:20:14,553
I mean, I, and that's
speculation, but it has to happen.
478
00:20:15,033 --> 00:20:15,213
I, right.
479
00:20:15,213 --> 00:20:18,393
If you're, if you're sitting up there
and there are tens of thousands of new
480
00:20:18,393 --> 00:20:24,663
cases coming in, those individual facts,
scenarios and cases stop looking like
481
00:20:24,663 --> 00:20:26,373
individual fact scenarios and cases.
482
00:20:26,373 --> 00:20:29,823
And if you're sitting in one hearing
and you know, you got five more
483
00:20:30,003 --> 00:20:33,063
directly after you're sort of mentally
about halfway through one, you're
484
00:20:33,063 --> 00:20:34,173
mentally preparing for the other.
485
00:20:34,173 --> 00:20:35,673
And I think that's just natural.
486
00:20:35,673 --> 00:20:40,413
I think it's a, a problem with, with the
system and, and I will always say that
487
00:20:40,413 --> 00:20:43,383
family court is a court of last resort.
488
00:20:43,383 --> 00:20:46,803
It is the last place you should be
actually making decisions for your family.
489
00:20:46,803 --> 00:20:51,273
And it should only be for emergencies
and people who just cannot be reasonable
490
00:20:51,273 --> 00:20:53,613
with each other to get things done,
491
00:20:53,703 --> 00:20:55,808
Christine: or victims of people
that can't be reasonable.
492
00:20:55,808 --> 00:20:56,528
But yeah, I know exactly.
493
00:20:56,588 --> 00:20:56,848
Oh, victims.
494
00:20:57,963 --> 00:20:58,265
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
495
00:20:58,533 --> 00:20:58,683
No,
496
00:20:58,683 --> 00:20:59,223
Hugh: you're right there.
497
00:20:59,223 --> 00:20:59,464
There are.
498
00:21:00,603 --> 00:21:03,783
There are a lot of dockets that
I did not practice very often
499
00:21:03,783 --> 00:21:06,693
that I tend to sometimes forget
about, but there are, yes.
500
00:21:06,693 --> 00:21:08,673
The, I, I consider those emergencies.
501
00:21:08,678 --> 00:21:08,828
Yeah.
502
00:21:08,833 --> 00:21:08,943
Yeah.
503
00:21:08,943 --> 00:21:13,203
Like if someone's in danger, whether
it be kids, adults, anybody that's
504
00:21:13,203 --> 00:21:16,773
being victimized or in danger, there
are provisions within our statutes that
505
00:21:16,773 --> 00:21:20,763
require those cases to be in front of a
judge within a very specific timeframe.
506
00:21:20,763 --> 00:21:21,393
And that's,
507
00:21:21,873 --> 00:21:23,823
Christine: well, there's a new movement
and I think this is a great way to like
508
00:21:23,823 --> 00:21:27,363
segue on and we'll come back to division
10, maybe at, maybe at a later date,
509
00:21:27,363 --> 00:21:32,873
but there's a huge movement and we call
'em high conflict cases but within the
510
00:21:32,873 --> 00:21:36,263
family court reform, you know, and I've
been dabbling in that for like a year
511
00:21:36,263 --> 00:21:40,613
now, the notion that it's two people
that can't co-parent when in reality
512
00:21:40,613 --> 00:21:42,233
it's one person that can't co-parent.
513
00:21:42,238 --> 00:21:42,298
Sure.
514
00:21:42,318 --> 00:21:43,218
Hugh: No, I agree with that.
515
00:21:43,598 --> 00:21:44,258
Christine: And I think, I agree.
516
00:21:44,263 --> 00:21:47,243
There is a fundamental, we have this
saying and it's terrible and oh my
517
00:21:47,243 --> 00:21:48,593
gosh, don't, don't get mad at me.
518
00:21:48,893 --> 00:21:51,803
But when I first started practicing, I
heard it and it was like, green bugs.
519
00:21:51,803 --> 00:21:51,978
You know what I'm talking about?
520
00:21:53,063 --> 00:21:53,408
You remember that?
521
00:21:53,448 --> 00:21:53,648
I have
522
00:21:53,648 --> 00:21:54,448
Hugh: heard this, but I don't remember.
523
00:21:54,623 --> 00:21:55,433
Christine: It's like green bugs.
524
00:21:55,433 --> 00:21:56,603
Like attract green bugs.
525
00:21:56,603 --> 00:21:57,593
Green bugs, like green bugs.
526
00:21:57,593 --> 00:21:57,683
Oh yeah.
527
00:21:57,683 --> 00:21:59,633
And it was like, if you've got
a crazy person on one side, the
528
00:21:59,633 --> 00:22:00,893
other person might be crazy.
529
00:22:01,223 --> 00:22:03,443
Um, or you've got a difficult
person on one side, the other
530
00:22:03,443 --> 00:22:04,643
person might be difficult.
531
00:22:04,943 --> 00:22:09,593
And I do think after practicing and
then being out of it, oftentimes when
532
00:22:09,593 --> 00:22:13,523
you're going to, like, I, I know you told
your, I mean, I told my clients, you do
533
00:22:13,523 --> 00:22:17,753
not want this person making a decision
about what color you do your hair, let
534
00:22:17,753 --> 00:22:19,763
alone your kids for crying out loud.
535
00:22:20,243 --> 00:22:25,763
Hugh: Um, especially given, okay,
imagine we have a half day trial.
536
00:22:26,993 --> 00:22:28,583
Well, each side gets half of that.
537
00:22:28,763 --> 00:22:31,733
The attorney's gonna be
speaking 80% of the time.
538
00:22:32,063 --> 00:22:34,043
You are gonna be giving
some of the answers.
539
00:22:34,043 --> 00:22:37,673
But I gotta get some testimony from other
people and then we've got some documents.
540
00:22:37,763 --> 00:22:40,523
That is the only thing the judge
is ever gonna know about your life.
541
00:22:40,673 --> 00:22:40,763
Right.
542
00:22:40,793 --> 00:22:42,863
And you're asking him or her to make.
543
00:22:43,193 --> 00:22:48,053
Que uh, decisions on the most important
aspects of your life, your children's
544
00:22:48,053 --> 00:22:52,403
life, your fu, your financial future,
all of that's gonna be decided based
545
00:22:52,403 --> 00:22:53,633
on that small amount of evidence.
546
00:22:53,633 --> 00:22:56,603
And that's if you're in a county
like Jefferson County where you have
547
00:22:56,603 --> 00:23:02,588
10 divisions and they can devote a
half day trial to things, or like
548
00:23:02,588 --> 00:23:04,223
in my case, a multi-day trial.
549
00:23:04,223 --> 00:23:07,053
You know, you, you're gonna, I fully
expect I'm gonna be waiting a long
550
00:23:07,053 --> 00:23:08,493
time for a long, multi-day trial.
551
00:23:08,493 --> 00:23:11,013
We're taking up an entire division
for, for a period of time.
552
00:23:11,013 --> 00:23:11,583
I get that.
553
00:23:11,883 --> 00:23:16,863
But in a lot of counties, you're gonna
do your full trial in two hours or less.
554
00:23:17,253 --> 00:23:17,583
Oh yeah.
555
00:23:17,643 --> 00:23:21,543
Hugh: And you're dealing with custody,
parenting time, safety of children.
556
00:23:21,543 --> 00:23:25,773
You're also dealing with retirement
accounts, maintenance, child support,
557
00:23:26,043 --> 00:23:28,353
all the financial stuff, who keeps
what bank accounts, whether you're
558
00:23:28,353 --> 00:23:29,313
gonna have to sell your house.
559
00:23:29,493 --> 00:23:35,643
All of that is being taken care of in
a two hour period with the attorneys.
560
00:23:36,408 --> 00:23:41,958
We love to talk and, and then the parties
that really matter just get to answer
561
00:23:41,958 --> 00:23:44,958
questions and have to be reminded, oh,
you're only here to answer that question.
562
00:23:44,958 --> 00:23:46,848
Don't talk about anything
else, just yes or no to this.
563
00:23:46,848 --> 00:23:49,488
And give us the short, the
short version of everything.
564
00:23:49,518 --> 00:23:52,698
'cause we're in a time crunch and your
whole life's gonna be decided on that.
565
00:23:52,908 --> 00:23:53,358
Christine: Totally.
566
00:23:53,393 --> 00:23:54,768
I mean, dude, this is crazy.
567
00:23:54,768 --> 00:23:58,188
But you know, I tried a whole sa case
circuit court jury trial in one day.
568
00:23:59,088 --> 00:24:01,668
I mean, voir dire trial, sentencing.
569
00:24:01,698 --> 00:24:02,268
Oh, all of it.
570
00:24:02,268 --> 00:24:03,828
When in the counties, when
I was a public defender.
571
00:24:04,218 --> 00:24:04,848
Um, that
572
00:24:04,848 --> 00:24:05,208
Hugh: happened.
573
00:24:05,208 --> 00:24:08,598
I mean, where I, I mean some of
the towns, uh, where I grew up or
574
00:24:08,598 --> 00:24:09,678
where I lived when I was younger.
575
00:24:09,678 --> 00:24:09,738
Yeah.
576
00:24:09,738 --> 00:24:12,828
The smaller towns in the South,
that's, that was just how it was done.
577
00:24:12,888 --> 00:24:13,068
Christine: Yeah.
578
00:24:13,098 --> 00:24:15,828
I remember like the first time I
got a hearing date for something in,
579
00:24:16,158 --> 00:24:19,038
you know, or one of the first times
when I first came into family law in
580
00:24:19,038 --> 00:24:22,098
Louisville and I was like, two hours,
we don't need two hours for this.
581
00:24:22,098 --> 00:24:23,628
I can do this in 15 minutes.
582
00:24:23,628 --> 00:24:24,288
You know what I mean?
583
00:24:24,288 --> 00:24:27,228
Like, and the other side
it was, uh, d Craig Osco.
584
00:24:27,228 --> 00:24:28,038
Did you ever case with her?
585
00:24:28,248 --> 00:24:28,279
Oh yeah.
586
00:24:28,588 --> 00:24:30,453
Yeah, I will, oh my word.
587
00:24:30,453 --> 00:24:33,333
She put her finger in my face
one time, um, during mediation.
588
00:24:33,693 --> 00:24:34,683
It was so bizarre.
589
00:24:34,683 --> 00:24:37,743
And I remember being
like, uh, I didn't know.
590
00:24:37,803 --> 00:24:38,793
I almost wanted to giggle.
591
00:24:38,793 --> 00:24:42,873
And obviously I respect my, you know,
elders, but it was so shocking to me.
592
00:24:42,903 --> 00:24:47,583
'cause you, you have a yeah, sa pretrial
about, with a prosecutor where like
593
00:24:47,583 --> 00:24:49,713
something real bad has happened.
594
00:24:49,773 --> 00:24:53,823
Like, and there was, you know, you didn't
get spoken to like that from a prosecutor.
595
00:24:53,823 --> 00:24:54,693
We're doing our job.
596
00:24:54,723 --> 00:25:00,033
And this was, Dee was so mad about,
I, it was something like so arbitrary.
597
00:25:00,033 --> 00:25:02,523
I remember being like, well,
uh, you know what I mean?
598
00:25:02,673 --> 00:25:04,023
I ain't in Kansas anymore.
599
00:25:04,053 --> 00:25:04,835
Hugh: Was there client there?
600
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:04,958
Yeah.
601
00:25:05,433 --> 00:25:05,523
Christine: Okay.
602
00:25:05,523 --> 00:25:07,203
No, no, he not in front of the client.
603
00:25:07,203 --> 00:25:09,573
'cause if it had been done in
front of my client, I don't know.
604
00:25:09,903 --> 00:25:12,723
Like I do remember being like
just looking at the wall.
605
00:25:12,753 --> 00:25:16,083
'cause I did, you know, I
can be reactionary and you.
606
00:25:16,683 --> 00:25:19,653
Don't, like, that's an aggressive
stance to take with somebody.
607
00:25:19,653 --> 00:25:19,893
It is.
608
00:25:20,143 --> 00:25:25,093
And I just remember being like, I, I don't
actually know what to do other than like,
609
00:25:25,093 --> 00:25:28,353
and I told you this story off the record,
like, I won't, not about this one, but
610
00:25:28,353 --> 00:25:31,623
another judge that one time was like,
I remember I was up there and you just
611
00:25:31,623 --> 00:25:35,043
were like, you backed up to the podium
and I was worried that I'd offended you.
612
00:25:35,043 --> 00:25:37,653
And I was like, honestly, you were just
screaming and embarrassed yourself.
613
00:25:37,653 --> 00:25:40,668
Like, and I didn't know what to do
other than to just be like, oh, another
614
00:25:40,828 --> 00:25:41,223
Hugh: attorney you mean?
615
00:25:41,223 --> 00:25:41,493
No, this
616
00:25:41,493 --> 00:25:42,153
Christine: was a judge.
617
00:25:42,183 --> 00:25:45,273
Oh, this was one of the judges
that, um, a female judge.
618
00:25:45,613 --> 00:25:47,383
But I just remember, I digress.
619
00:25:47,383 --> 00:25:51,733
But being so, it's so shocking to me
when people lose their control like that
620
00:25:51,733 --> 00:25:55,303
about something so minimal that it, it's,
it makes me feel embarrassed for them.
621
00:25:55,303 --> 00:25:55,813
There's some people
622
00:25:55,813 --> 00:25:58,213
Hugh: that practice that way, and I'm,
I'm not saying Dee was one of them
623
00:25:58,213 --> 00:26:00,493
because I, I got to know her pretty well.
624
00:26:00,593 --> 00:26:04,163
One of the things that surprised
me coming from a non-family law
625
00:26:04,163 --> 00:26:06,093
background was the showmanship.
626
00:26:06,123 --> 00:26:06,423
Yeah.
627
00:26:06,423 --> 00:26:06,424
Yeah.
628
00:26:06,453 --> 00:26:09,633
Like I, I saw plenty of posturing.
629
00:26:10,098 --> 00:26:12,648
In politics and lobbying
and that kind of stuff.
630
00:26:12,648 --> 00:26:15,378
But the showmanship, especially
if a client was in a room, and
631
00:26:15,378 --> 00:26:18,048
then how the demeanor could change
immediately when it's just the
632
00:26:18,048 --> 00:26:21,288
attorneys like in the room with a
mediator and everyone's totally cool.
633
00:26:21,288 --> 00:26:21,348
Yeah.
634
00:26:21,348 --> 00:26:25,023
And it's a show, and then once you figure
it out, you react differently to things.
635
00:26:25,023 --> 00:26:25,213
Mm-hmm.
636
00:26:25,518 --> 00:26:28,848
Then there are the people that only
practice by getting angry and they
637
00:26:28,848 --> 00:26:32,448
figure that a certain percentage of the
time they're gonna win just by being
638
00:26:32,448 --> 00:26:35,148
the loudest person in the room and they
don't have to prepare all that much.
639
00:26:35,328 --> 00:26:39,198
And then there are those, and I always
found, uh, my, my former business partner
640
00:26:39,198 --> 00:26:44,868
was phenomenal at never getting riled
up and would make people melt down by
641
00:26:44,868 --> 00:26:49,398
just not taking the bait and like smugly
smiling and then just waiting for them to
642
00:26:49,398 --> 00:26:52,488
finish and then talking about something
totally different and not reacting.
643
00:26:52,488 --> 00:26:55,698
And it worked so well and I've,
I've never been great at that.
644
00:26:55,698 --> 00:26:59,208
I'm terrible at it, but I've realized
exactly there are certain types of people
645
00:26:59,208 --> 00:27:01,008
that that's how you deal with them.
646
00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:02,703
And boy it works.
647
00:27:02,703 --> 00:27:06,273
I've had judges tell me after I've just
stayed calm and let people rant and rave
648
00:27:06,273 --> 00:27:10,293
and then just gone about getting my proof
on and sat down calmly afterwards that
649
00:27:10,293 --> 00:27:13,608
they just really enjoyed watching that,
that there was, you know, no, yeah, no.
650
00:27:13,688 --> 00:27:14,328
A good way to handle it.
651
00:27:14,368 --> 00:27:14,608
I know.
652
00:27:14,608 --> 00:27:14,763
For being
653
00:27:14,763 --> 00:27:16,293
Christine: crash out, Christine, no doubt.
654
00:27:16,413 --> 00:27:17,613
Hugh: Oh, I can be, and yeah,
655
00:27:17,613 --> 00:27:19,863
Christine: but I've never put my
finger in somebody's face unless
656
00:27:19,863 --> 00:27:21,183
I was expecting it to escalate.
657
00:27:21,183 --> 00:27:22,173
That bother me.
658
00:27:22,178 --> 00:27:22,408
Yeah.
659
00:27:22,413 --> 00:27:22,623
Yeah.
660
00:27:22,623 --> 00:27:22,773
And I
661
00:27:22,773 --> 00:27:24,513
Hugh: found that, uh, I
don't know when that was.
662
00:27:24,513 --> 00:27:24,873
I, I
663
00:27:25,023 --> 00:27:25,983
Christine: 2014.
664
00:27:26,553 --> 00:27:26,913
Hugh: Okay.
665
00:27:27,153 --> 00:27:31,593
So, yeah, I, I remember practicing
with her as she moved a lot more toward
666
00:27:31,593 --> 00:27:33,873
mediation, uh, before she retired.
667
00:27:33,933 --> 00:27:38,313
And it just, you know, people, I
guess they, they mellow and practiced
668
00:27:38,313 --> 00:27:41,493
differently, but I, I had more
cases then, and I came in expecting.
669
00:27:41,733 --> 00:27:41,883
Yeah.
670
00:27:41,883 --> 00:27:44,883
There were some, some older attorneys
also that I'm, I'm thinking of that.
671
00:27:45,858 --> 00:27:47,478
When you got a case with them.
672
00:27:47,508 --> 00:27:48,138
Oh boy.
673
00:27:48,168 --> 00:27:48,228
Yeah.
674
00:27:48,258 --> 00:27:51,018
You prepare your client and they're
gonna be very aggressive and they'll
675
00:27:51,018 --> 00:27:54,018
be in your face and they're gonna just,
at this deposition, they'll dig into
676
00:27:54,018 --> 00:27:55,848
anything and everything to wear you down.
677
00:27:55,848 --> 00:27:57,138
And then they'll get
to the important stuff.
678
00:27:57,468 --> 00:28:00,888
And then you, you, you get in
there and they're just laid back
679
00:28:00,888 --> 00:28:01,818
and you realize that Oh yeah.
680
00:28:01,818 --> 00:28:04,968
Just people, yeah, people do tend to
mellow and it's just like, oh, this is
681
00:28:04,968 --> 00:28:07,548
very different than it was like five
years ago when I had to sit through a
682
00:28:07,548 --> 00:28:09,438
deposition that you were conducting.
683
00:28:09,588 --> 00:28:11,838
Christine: Well, I think too, I
was like, I came back in 2014.
684
00:28:11,838 --> 00:28:12,768
She didn't know me.
685
00:28:12,768 --> 00:28:15,318
I don't think she would've talked
to somebody that was like one
686
00:28:15,318 --> 00:28:16,938
of the regular practitioners.
687
00:28:17,268 --> 00:28:18,978
Like I think she just
thought, who is this girl?
688
00:28:19,008 --> 00:28:19,668
You know what I'm saying?
689
00:28:19,668 --> 00:28:22,308
Like, I was brand new and I
got that a lot from the bench.
690
00:28:22,548 --> 00:28:25,998
But I got a funny story about Dee,
she called when I was pr uh, teaching
691
00:28:25,998 --> 00:28:30,618
and she was so desperate to come to
speak to the kids as far as like for
692
00:28:30,618 --> 00:28:34,188
a media appearance as far as like for
a woman's group that she was in, just
693
00:28:34,188 --> 00:28:35,868
about how important it is to vote.
694
00:28:35,868 --> 00:28:37,788
And I did ask her, I was like,
are you gonna tell the kids that
695
00:28:37,788 --> 00:28:39,378
they should or shouldn't put
their finger in someone's face?
696
00:28:40,113 --> 00:28:41,133
When they're an attorney.
697
00:28:41,583 --> 00:28:42,333
Um, what did
698
00:28:42,333 --> 00:28:42,843
Hugh: she say?
699
00:28:42,963 --> 00:28:46,563
Christine: She, I mean she just said,
oh, how are you, you know, the typical
700
00:28:46,563 --> 00:28:49,928
like da da da and then somebody else
from the organization react came.
701
00:28:49,928 --> 00:28:50,073
How react.
702
00:28:50,403 --> 00:28:55,083
Well, and you realize too, like
there's so many people, you know,
703
00:28:55,293 --> 00:28:59,973
from how I was raised, it's like
you can't, the person that could be
704
00:28:59,973 --> 00:29:02,913
the low man on the totem pole could
be the smartest person in the room.
705
00:29:02,913 --> 00:29:04,563
Oftentimes they are the
smartest person in the room.
706
00:29:04,833 --> 00:29:07,413
Um, and so you gotta be careful
at the battles you pick with
707
00:29:07,413 --> 00:29:10,263
people that you don't know just
for the sake of picking them.
708
00:29:10,263 --> 00:29:10,368
Oh, sure.
709
00:29:10,368 --> 00:29:10,888
You know what I mean?
710
00:29:11,673 --> 00:29:12,633
Hugh: Oh, I, I agree completely.
711
00:29:12,753 --> 00:29:13,503
I agree completely.
712
00:29:13,683 --> 00:29:17,253
Because one of, one of the things about
family law this very different than a jury
713
00:29:17,253 --> 00:29:22,633
trial is if you're trying to, you have a
style that is, I'm always gonna be angry.
714
00:29:22,638 --> 00:29:22,783
Yeah, yeah.
715
00:29:22,783 --> 00:29:27,613
And try to make the impact, or I'm the
one that is always going to be where
716
00:29:27,613 --> 00:29:28,878
we're gonna somehow be the victim.
717
00:29:29,623 --> 00:29:34,153
And you know, it's gonna be like every
little thing is an affront to this or
718
00:29:34,153 --> 00:29:35,413
to that, and make it something bigger.
719
00:29:35,803 --> 00:29:38,023
That's a style that could work
if you're in front of a jury the
720
00:29:38,023 --> 00:29:39,613
first time and only one time.
721
00:29:39,763 --> 00:29:40,003
Right.
722
00:29:40,183 --> 00:29:43,813
But if you're in front of the same judges
year after year and they see you and
723
00:29:43,813 --> 00:29:48,253
you do that every single time, it has no
effect whatsoever, other than your client
724
00:29:48,253 --> 00:29:49,603
might think, oh, that was brilliant.
725
00:29:49,603 --> 00:29:50,113
It looks great.
726
00:29:50,113 --> 00:29:50,173
Yeah.
727
00:29:50,173 --> 00:29:54,253
But the, the, it's almost like you
have a playbook and the judge presiding
728
00:29:54,253 --> 00:29:56,803
over it, or opposing counsel if
they've tried cases with you before
729
00:29:57,103 --> 00:29:58,213
they know exactly what's coming.
730
00:29:58,243 --> 00:29:58,333
Yep.
731
00:29:58,333 --> 00:29:59,383
Almost word for word.
732
00:29:59,383 --> 00:30:01,063
Oh, this is gonna happen.
733
00:30:01,063 --> 00:30:04,513
And, and sometimes you just,
you get it out of the way.
734
00:30:04,513 --> 00:30:07,873
You plant something just to get them
going off on a tangent because you
735
00:30:07,873 --> 00:30:11,023
know that they can do it and that
you, you use it to steer the trial.
736
00:30:11,023 --> 00:30:13,963
I've just never found that,
that kind of practice to be
737
00:30:14,233 --> 00:30:14,653
Christine: effective, to
738
00:30:14,653 --> 00:30:15,588
Hugh: be effective long term.
739
00:30:15,588 --> 00:30:18,073
But boy, I remember people trying
to rattle me when I came in and I
740
00:30:18,073 --> 00:30:21,613
was young kid coming in there acting
like I knew what I was doing and ugh.
741
00:30:22,303 --> 00:30:23,353
Oh man.
742
00:30:23,713 --> 00:30:27,883
And it just, but yeah, I, I
also remember those same people
743
00:30:27,883 --> 00:30:29,173
that gave me a lot of hell.
744
00:30:29,968 --> 00:30:33,388
And messed with me when I, when I was
younger, if I came out and I did a
745
00:30:33,388 --> 00:30:36,508
good job at a hearing, they were, it
was like sort of your rite of passage.
746
00:30:36,508 --> 00:30:36,778
Yeah.
747
00:30:36,783 --> 00:30:38,223
Everybody was cool with
you and you were, you know.
748
00:30:38,223 --> 00:30:38,543
Christine: Well, yeah.
749
00:30:38,543 --> 00:30:40,048
That was the weird thing for
me though, was I was like,
750
00:30:40,048 --> 00:30:41,038
y'all, I've already done this.
751
00:30:41,038 --> 00:30:44,308
I went to Eastern, I went from
Boston to Eastern Kentucky.
752
00:30:44,758 --> 00:30:45,568
Can you imagine?
753
00:30:45,568 --> 00:30:49,048
25 years old, like, oh my gosh, I'm
here to like, you know, I mean, just
754
00:30:49,048 --> 00:30:52,078
arrogant, ego, all the things they
put me in their place, but I was
755
00:30:52,078 --> 00:30:53,818
just like, I've already paid my dues.
756
00:30:53,818 --> 00:30:54,478
You know what I mean?
757
00:30:54,478 --> 00:30:54,658
Like Yeah.
758
00:30:54,658 --> 00:30:54,898
But if
759
00:30:54,898 --> 00:30:56,303
Hugh: you haven't paid
your dues there, yeah.
760
00:30:56,383 --> 00:30:57,298
I mean, it is different.
761
00:30:57,298 --> 00:30:58,558
You get, oh hell.
762
00:30:59,623 --> 00:31:03,253
I mean, I, I know you had to have
experienced it years into your career.
763
00:31:03,253 --> 00:31:07,993
You go out to some other county
and you get you, you know, unless
764
00:31:07,993 --> 00:31:12,463
you look like an old, an old
withered, uh, grizzled attorney.
765
00:31:12,553 --> 00:31:16,153
As long as you look somewhat youthful,
people are gonna try to rattle you
766
00:31:16,153 --> 00:31:17,983
and, and see, see what you're made of.
767
00:31:17,983 --> 00:31:19,488
Well, I feel you're new commodity.
768
00:31:19,708 --> 00:31:20,803
Christine: No, I feel
at home in the counties.
769
00:31:20,803 --> 00:31:24,103
That's how, well, you know, I
was raised like, like, not like
770
00:31:24,163 --> 00:31:27,523
actual, but like legally raised
by that old school homecooked.
771
00:31:27,703 --> 00:31:31,213
So I understand the notion
of like, Hey, go introduce
772
00:31:31,213 --> 00:31:32,323
yourself to the police officer.
773
00:31:32,323 --> 00:31:33,853
Hey, introduce yourself to the sheriff.
774
00:31:33,853 --> 00:31:33,913
Yeah.
775
00:31:34,123 --> 00:31:35,413
Hey, go to the clerk.
776
00:31:35,413 --> 00:31:36,223
Like, hey.
777
00:31:36,223 --> 00:31:38,833
And then if they start to say something,
obviously I got an accent too, which
778
00:31:38,833 --> 00:31:39,883
does help, but I'll just be like,
779
00:31:40,003 --> 00:31:40,513
Hugh: oh, it's huge.
780
00:31:40,573 --> 00:31:41,743
Christine: I will say something.
781
00:31:41,743 --> 00:31:43,693
You know, I'll be like, y'all,
if you're trying to home cook me.
782
00:31:43,693 --> 00:31:45,673
I used to practice in Eastern
Kentucky and I got a, you know,
783
00:31:45,673 --> 00:31:47,923
prosecutor's cell phone you can
have, they'll show you how it's done.
784
00:31:47,923 --> 00:31:48,013
We'll
785
00:31:48,013 --> 00:31:49,663
Hugh: just go work the room
and talk to the other attorney.
786
00:31:49,663 --> 00:31:52,088
If the opposing counsel's in the
courtroom, go introduce yourself and.
787
00:31:53,053 --> 00:31:53,353
Yeah.
788
00:31:53,353 --> 00:31:54,793
I mean, it makes, it
makes a big difference.
789
00:31:54,793 --> 00:31:56,713
But I, Jefferson County is a foreign
790
00:31:56,713 --> 00:31:58,003
Christine: to me, the way it's handled.
791
00:31:58,093 --> 00:32:01,393
They, Louisville thinks it's the most
important thing to ever live, and we've
792
00:32:01,393 --> 00:32:07,903
got, it's a nearly $6 billion judicial
budget and it is the most inefficient
793
00:32:07,963 --> 00:32:10,483
part of the judiciary in the whole,
in the commonwealth of Kentucky.
794
00:32:11,503 --> 00:32:12,283
In my opinion.
795
00:32:12,463 --> 00:32:15,733
Hugh: I could point out tons of
problems with decisions being
796
00:32:15,733 --> 00:32:17,743
made without a hearing that
should be made without a hearing.
797
00:32:17,743 --> 00:32:22,963
But I, I always found that in Jefferson
County, that happened far less than
798
00:32:22,963 --> 00:32:25,093
anywhere else in so many places.
799
00:32:25,093 --> 00:32:27,703
It was just, alright, we're all here.
800
00:32:28,033 --> 00:32:30,103
Let's just hash it out
right here at motion hour.
801
00:32:30,103 --> 00:32:31,903
Or, here's what I think should happen.
802
00:32:31,903 --> 00:32:32,953
Why don't you guys go do this?
803
00:32:32,953 --> 00:32:34,243
We don't need to have a hearing on this.
804
00:32:34,243 --> 00:32:36,523
And you're thinking that's
not the way it works.
805
00:32:36,523 --> 00:32:38,653
Might make a lot of sense
for practical reasons.
806
00:32:38,893 --> 00:32:41,443
It might save a lot of people, a lot
of money if they can't afford for
807
00:32:41,443 --> 00:32:42,583
their attorneys to go have a hearing.
808
00:32:43,003 --> 00:32:49,663
I get why it happens and it happens very
organically in a lot of courtrooms where.
809
00:32:50,083 --> 00:32:52,423
Clearly the judge is
familiar with both parties.
810
00:32:52,423 --> 00:32:53,833
They've been in front of
the judge a million times.
811
00:32:53,833 --> 00:32:53,923
Mm-hmm.
812
00:32:54,163 --> 00:32:57,523
They brought this other issue,
but it's still a court of law.
813
00:32:57,643 --> 00:33:01,303
It still requires a hearing with people
sworn in before you can make a decision.
814
00:33:01,483 --> 00:33:01,663
Totally.
815
00:33:01,663 --> 00:33:06,133
I just, I saw that far less in
Jefferson County, and in fact I
816
00:33:06,133 --> 00:33:09,313
became, you know, it was a little bit
817
00:33:11,563 --> 00:33:16,183
when I, you got so used to it happening
outside of Jefferson County that you
818
00:33:16,183 --> 00:33:20,053
almost didn't get upset about it when
it happened, but when I would see
819
00:33:20,053 --> 00:33:23,143
it happen here in Jefferson County,
I would get really upset about it.
820
00:33:23,173 --> 00:33:24,553
'cause Oh, that doesn't happen here.
821
00:33:24,553 --> 00:33:28,003
We get hearings, we actually sit down
and, and if I need a two hour hearing, I
822
00:33:28,003 --> 00:33:31,963
can have a two hour hearing on one issue,
which you can't get most other places.
823
00:33:31,993 --> 00:33:32,083
Oh,
824
00:33:32,083 --> 00:33:32,773
Christine: you're gonna be shocked.
825
00:33:32,773 --> 00:33:35,323
Some of the video I've gotten
recently where judges are, aren't
826
00:33:35,323 --> 00:33:36,853
swearing people in here in Jefferson.
827
00:33:37,243 --> 00:33:39,773
Hugh: Oh, I listen, I wouldn't be shocked.
828
00:33:39,773 --> 00:33:40,343
I remember,
829
00:33:41,033 --> 00:33:41,723
Christine: sorry, go on.
830
00:33:41,723 --> 00:33:41,993
I interrupt.
831
00:33:41,993 --> 00:33:42,233
Oh, no,
832
00:33:42,233 --> 00:33:44,903
Hugh: I just, I remember
walking out of a hearing.
833
00:33:45,623 --> 00:33:50,243
My former, law partner walked out of a
hearing on a different floor and we met
834
00:33:50,243 --> 00:33:52,133
and we were gonna go back to the office.
835
00:33:52,283 --> 00:33:53,693
And I, I said, how's it going?
836
00:33:53,693 --> 00:33:57,623
Well, we started without swearing anyone
in and go straight into testimony.
837
00:33:57,623 --> 00:33:58,973
I was like, Hazel, how about you?
838
00:33:58,973 --> 00:34:02,183
And I'm like, same exact
thing happened with me.
839
00:34:02,183 --> 00:34:05,873
Had to stop and go back through everything
because we all realized that we had never
840
00:34:05,873 --> 00:34:10,193
really start, no, mine was, uh, maybe
didn't go on the record and started the
841
00:34:10,193 --> 00:34:11,572
hearing without going on the record.
842
00:34:11,572 --> 00:34:14,333
Never had the record running, had to
start over, and the other, and his
843
00:34:14,333 --> 00:34:17,152
was, no one got sworn in, so they
had to start over and go through it.
844
00:34:17,513 --> 00:34:17,723
Christine: Yeah.
845
00:34:17,723 --> 00:34:19,643
I mean, because what is the
definition of testimony?
846
00:34:20,183 --> 00:34:20,933
Sworn statement.
847
00:34:21,233 --> 00:34:21,413
Yeah.
848
00:34:21,533 --> 00:34:23,543
A statement that is not
sworn is not testimony,
849
00:34:23,993 --> 00:34:26,783
Hugh: and it's not an affidavit
that can't be cross examined.
850
00:34:27,353 --> 00:34:31,283
Christine: So it's just, and this,
this kind of, and I mean this is
851
00:34:31,283 --> 00:34:37,822
so basic that it is, it's shocking
to even have the conversation.
852
00:34:37,853 --> 00:34:41,303
Um, the level of, I mean, is there
a word other than incompetence?
853
00:34:41,603 --> 00:34:42,683
Uh, I don't know.
854
00:34:43,717 --> 00:34:43,777
I
855
00:34:44,228 --> 00:34:44,618
Hugh: don't know.
856
00:34:44,623 --> 00:34:44,888
I mean, I, I mean,
857
00:34:45,338 --> 00:34:48,368
Christine: make a checklist, you
know, swear parties in, check.
858
00:34:49,058 --> 00:34:49,328
Hugh: Yeah.
859
00:34:49,388 --> 00:34:50,618
Christine: Turn cameras on.
860
00:34:50,618 --> 00:34:51,188
Check.
861
00:34:51,518 --> 00:34:54,878
Hugh: Is it the result of a system
where you just have too many things
862
00:34:54,878 --> 00:34:57,968
going on and you're processing it
like a fam uh, a factory and it
863
00:34:57,968 --> 00:34:59,558
just, things fall between the cracks?
864
00:34:59,618 --> 00:34:59,798
Christine: Okay.
865
00:34:59,798 --> 00:35:01,598
Well, what happens when a
factory falls between the tracks?
866
00:35:01,598 --> 00:35:02,408
Or like, what happens?
867
00:35:02,438 --> 00:35:05,708
Like there's a massive lawsuit
because somebody gets hurt or like,
868
00:35:06,068 --> 00:35:08,318
Hugh: oh, I, I, I'm not,
I'm not justifying it.
869
00:35:08,318 --> 00:35:12,248
I'm just trying to think of, you know,
there, there are explanations other,
870
00:35:12,368 --> 00:35:15,518
I mean, because I've, I see it happen.
871
00:35:15,548 --> 00:35:18,338
I mean, frankly, I've seen
it happen in the judges.
872
00:35:18,338 --> 00:35:21,338
I like to practice in front of most
people that I know are intelligent
873
00:35:21,338 --> 00:35:27,068
people that I have known personally,
that are fascinating, smart people that
874
00:35:27,488 --> 00:35:32,168
just in any other aspect of their life
aren't doing those kinds of things.
875
00:35:32,168 --> 00:35:32,648
So it,
876
00:35:33,458 --> 00:35:35,498
Christine: you know, I mean, we could
make 'em a checklist and send it to 'em.
877
00:35:35,498 --> 00:35:36,968
I don't think that would be ex parte.
878
00:35:37,028 --> 00:35:39,818
Hugh: Well, you know, honestly,
I, I've practiced in front
879
00:35:39,818 --> 00:35:41,198
of judges who had lists.
880
00:35:41,558 --> 00:35:44,258
Of the, these are the only
objections you can make.
881
00:35:44,258 --> 00:35:46,778
Here are the rule, there are the
proper objections when you make an
882
00:35:46,778 --> 00:35:48,908
objection, state what your objection is.
883
00:35:49,088 --> 00:35:51,698
And it was so clear that when
you did it, they weren't familiar
884
00:35:51,698 --> 00:35:55,428
with any of those objections and
didn't understand how they worked.
885
00:35:55,428 --> 00:35:58,788
Even though they had them put, you
know, right there and, and, and
886
00:35:58,818 --> 00:36:01,458
taped onto the, uh, litigation table.
887
00:36:01,458 --> 00:36:03,528
So I don't know that that
would, that would help.
888
00:36:03,618 --> 00:36:04,548
Christine: You can't make it up.
889
00:36:04,548 --> 00:36:06,048
You really cannot make it up./
890
00:36:06,478 --> 00:36:06,958
Next call.
891
00:36:06,958 --> 00:36:09,163
We need some justice, justice, justice.
892
00:36:09,598 --> 00:36:10,978
And I wanna ring bells in public.
893
00:36:11,338 --> 00:36:13,708
I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.
894
00:36:13,768 --> 00:36:15,603
Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.
895
00:36:15,803 --> 00:36:17,363
I To the fo Yeah.
896
00:36:17,443 --> 00:36:21,083
I to the fo fo teaser.
