On this episode Mike & Jason talk about the rookie class performances in the NBA Summer League. Maleek Thomas of the Cavs has been lighting it up and the top 4 of Dybansta, Peterson, Boozer, and Wilson have all shown why they were thought of as potential franchise players. Mike continues to believe that Caleb Wilson will win the ROY and emerge as the best player from this rookie class in the long run. Next, they discuss Wemby forgoing the 5% All-NBA/DPOY kicker in his max contract and the curious contract that Gary Trent Jr. signed with the Bucks. Mike and Jason wrap up by trying to figure out what will happen in the Kawhi/Clippers/Raptors saga before speculating whether there is any chance James Harden won't be on the Cavs' roster this season.

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Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's my cleansing here with my co host Jason Song tonight.

One day later then our normal NBA night.

But here we are and we're going to talk some NBA Summer league.

We're going to talk some Victor Wembanyama contract.

We're going to talk some Gary Trent contract.

I don't know when the last time it was that we talked Gary Trent.

It's been quite a while since we mentioned his name on the podcast.

We're going to look a little bit at the Kawhi, I don't know what we call it, a fiasco at this point between the league, the Raptors and the Clippers and the law firm of whatever, whatever, whatever and Cats.

As Zach Lowe always says, don't forget about the cats at the end.

So anyway, I don't know.

Let's.

Let's Start with, let's start with summer league and just the rookies.

Obviously the big topics from the Cavs perspective.

Malik Thomas, man pick number 34, averaging 30 plus did not play tonight in their win over the Pelicans.

What was the reason?

Like why didn't they play?

Is he just done?

Is he done?

Is he done somewhere?

Shut him down.

Just like, just like the wizard shut down the number one overall pick.

AJ Dance to the Cavs are shutting down.

Maybe this guy would have been a top five pick.

Maybe.

You see what Calari said about him?

Did you see Calipari was on the broadcast when the cab.

When the Cavs were playing and Calari was just like Listen, there are 30 team or 29 teams in the NBA that missed on this guy.

And the Cavs are going to get real, are going to have someone that's going to be a really good NBA player.

And once again I don't know how much we want to trust him on like NBA talent we saw.

We'll just.

But like glowing things and obviously you know he was playing for a team that was not like one of the big teams but he played for Calpari.

So I like whatever like I, I'm encouraged what I saw like he's a, he's a bucket man.

He can get some shots.

He, he was doing it all over the floor.

He was.

Now once again we're, we're doing this against some people that like I know there was one summer league team that suited up like a 33 year old so.

33 Year old ball guy.

Mike.

It could have been like your doppel slight.

I don't know if you know who I'm talking about.

What team was he, was he on?

The Lakers?

Was he on.

I feel, I feel as the Lakers.

Yeah, I feel like it was the Lakers because I was watching because I saw watched a little bit of Peter Suter from Miami play.

I forget who the Lakers even playing in that game.

Maybe they were playing Memphis, I can't remember but I watched a little bit of that game and that was, that was mentioned on the broadcast.

Yeah that they had the, the 33 year old guy still, still kicking around summer league.

So.

I mean I'm, I'm incurious I guess.

But once again like I mean it's summer league so I, I don't want to get like.

I don't want to like plant my flag in like that there.

This is the greatest thing since sliced bread or something.

But I, I'm.

I'm at least encouraged that what I'M seeing out of him could translate to something at least.

You know, we also have to keep in mind that I've already forgotten his name.

Who was the rookie a few years ago?

Porter Jr. No, no, no, no, no, after him.

Tyrese Proctor.

Lots of tats.

Lots of tats.

He was, he was like formerly the number one guy and like all the recruiting and then he made stupid decisions.

Kevin porter.

Kevin Porter Jr. No, no, no, no,.

No, no, no, no.

The other guy.

Oh, yeah.

Imani Bates.

Imani Bates.

Like I remember in summer league, he tore it up and then here we are.

So I.

And that.

So I don't want to like put the cart before the horse and say like, hey, this guy's going to be like rookie, like all it all rookie team or something.

And.

But theoretically at his position, he could have minutes if he's productive, depending on what happens.

Well, we can address what happens with James Harden.

How about that?

We can talk about that.

Jason and I made a promise to each other not to mention a certain individual's name, but we could talk about it in relation to James Harden.

So, look, there's a lot of things to kind of just talk about briefly with Malik Thomas.

I think, number one, if you just look at him as a player and what he's done in summer league, what I like about it is that he scored in a multitude of ways.

He scored from deep, deep threes, he's been able to shoot off the dribble threes, he's been able to get to the mid range and he's been able to get to the basket pretty much whenever he's wanted.

And those are all encouraging signs.

And clearly putting up 30 plus, whether it's summer league or not summer league, it still is impressive, the Caliperi piece of it, right?

You can say that, yeah, he's going to hype up his guys, but at the same time, you can look at the number of quality pro players that John Calipari has produced over the course of his career, and you can say that he's been pretty darn good at producing quality NBA players.

Now that again, doesn't mean that his ringing endorsement of Malik Thomas means that Malik Thomas is going to be a NBA all star in the future.

But having played for Calipari usually isn't a bad thing when it comes to your development and your ability to become a professional player.

So you have that piece of it.

I did see, and I wish I had it, but I looked while you were talking, I couldn't find it, but there was A tweet that when Malik Thomas who played with Darius Auff, who Acuff was the number seven pick to Sacramento, that his splits when he played without Auff, his scoring jumped.

Again, this is on a per 40 minute basis, but his scoring jumped, his true shooting jumped, his feel.

Everything about every.

Statistically he was much, much better when Acuff was off the floor.

Meaning that when he had the ball in his hands and the offense was kind of running through him as opposed to him having to play off the ball with Darius Acuff.

Now, when you look at the Cavs team, it's not like this team that theoretically wants to try to win an NBA title is going to give the ball to Malik Thomas when you have Donovan Mitchell and potentially James Harden and someone else potentially on the squad.

But nonetheless, I think that what we've seen in summer league for from Malik Thomas has been encouraging for a guy who's the 34th pick.

And again, like you said, maybe it's an Imani Bates situation, maybe it doesn't amount to anything other than the guys having a tremendous summer league and he's been out of heater.

But the one thing that I do like is that there you go.

The Cavs have targeted or had targeted him before the draft.

I heard leading into the draft multiple times, multiple sources saying that Malik Thomas was the guy that they wanted.

And I think that he's demonstrated not only his ability to score, but he's shown a little bit of court vision.

He's been able to handle the ball.

I like the fact that he's 6 5, especially if you start looking at putting him on the floor with Donovan Mitchell, then it eliminates the small backcourt theory that we've been talking about with the Cavs prior to the James Harden trade forever that it's hard to put 261-62- guards on the floor in today's NBA.

So if Malik Thomas could develop into a guy that in a year or two could be on the floor playing big minutes in a playoff game and again we're a long way from that happening.

But just his Scott, his size and skill set seems to lend itself to the fact that maybe he could develop into that.

He's only, he can get.

He.

He's only 19, so he could definitely even get a little bigger.

Right.

Like he could, he could grow a little more for sure.

So I like what I've seen.

Again, I don't think there's a whole lot else to talk about.

Clearly it's summer league.

What about the top four Picks.

Mike, let's.

Okay, so the top four, I mean, look.

I mean, anybody who's listening to the podcast know where I know knows where I stand on these top four.

Guys, I just.

Watching Caleb Wilson, Watching Caleb Wilson during the college season, seeing him play once in person, just looking at the athleticism that he has, looking at the skill set that he has.

Like when I went and saw him play against John Schulman's Central Arkansas team in their first game of the year, and he had four dunks before the first TV timeout.

So in the first four minutes of his college career, he had four dunks.

But even beyond that, I was just so impressed by his passing.

And not that he's Magic Johnson, but he just was making passes that normal college players don't make.

He just saw things in my mind that I didn't see other players being able to make.

And then you look at the way that he's been able to rebound the ball.

In college, he's rebounded it well.

In summer league, he had a game with five blocks.

In Summer League, obviously the debut with 35.

He makes seven threes.

In that game where he made seven threes during the entire season at Carolina, he had the block where he did get picked.

And then on the chase down, he almost hit his head on the backboard, almost had to basically grab the backboard and move his head out of the way.

He's just an incredible, incredible athlete.

And everything that you read and hear and see him talk about, it seems like he's a dude that is wired to a want to win, baby, Want to get better.

And when you combine, I want to win.

I want to get better with the kind of tools that he has.

And I just think when I look at the top four guys, I think he has the best tools.

That's not to say that other guys don't have tremendous tools in that group, because they certainly do.

But I just think Caleb Wilson, his size, his athleticism, and then you combine that with the competitiveness and the seeming desire to be the best that he can be, I still think he's going to be the best one of these four guys.

He's probably going to put up, I don't know if the best statistics from an efficiency standpoint, but he's probably going to score a lot of points and he's going to have a lot of spectacular highlights.

He's going to have the ball in his hands a lot in Chicago because they just don't have a whole lot else.

I know Giddy's there and he's going to have the ball.

But certainly as a scorer, I think Caleb Wilson is going to be featured.

And I've seen nothing in the summer league that has led me to believe that any one of those other three guys is going to be better than your.

You're taking him for rookie of the year right now in.

I'm taking him for.

I'm taking him for rookie of the year and I'm taking him for.

He's going to be the best player.

Ten years from now we're going to look back at these four guys and Caleb Wilson's going to be the best player.

Now I think all, all four of these guys are all going to be really, really good in their own, in their own way.

Right.

I think Caleb Wilson can be a huge two way force because I think defensively he can move and he blocks shots and all that kind of stuff.

And if he develops, which it looks like he already has, at least developed the confidence to shoot threes now, he's not going to go 7 for 11 every game, which he hasn't in summer league, but just shows his potential as a shooter.

But I think he's got a chance to be the best all around player of those four and then if we just kind of take them one by one.

I don't know.

What are your thoughts?

I don't know how much you watched of any of this or seen the highest.

I'll be honest with you.

The only stuff I obviously I saw the stats from the showdown game.

I saw the Caleb Wilson three pointer at the buzzer that didn't matter because the game was over, but he jacked up a three pointer when he was off balance and he made it.

I, I saw some dance that AJ DeBance did at one point when he was on the sidelines and I watched Malik Thomas.

That's literally all the summer league I've seen.

I see, I've.

I've seen some like random pictures of players supporting summer league and stuff like that, but I've literally paid zero attention to summer league as a whole.

Um, and I think the main reason for that is because I just don't want to get too caught in the.

Okay, summer league.

It is basketball, but it's not like, I mean it's, it's a step up from like, okay, I'm watching people play basketball in, in a league at the rec center.

It's a step up from.

Not an easy watch.

It's not an easy watch.

Not an easy.

It's not an easy watch.

Because, like, these guys aren't playing.

These are not guys that play together regularly.

They've had like three practices and now they're playing in.

In games.

And it's primarily just to get some film and get some reps in.

Right.

That's the primary reason.

Okay.

When it is interesting to think about summer league, Mike, because, like, none of the other major sports have anything that is even close to mirroring it.

Now.

MLB has, like, winter ball.

Right.

The NFL has nothing, I guess, if you want to count, like, the UFL and all that other garbage that happens in the springtime, but there's nothing like the NBA summer league.

And when it comes to, like, the other sports, like, there's no, like, I couldn't watch the fall ball or winter league games for baseball until spring training starts.

Right.

Like, none of that is visible.

Like, the NBA is the only thing.

And I don't necessarily know why that is.

I mean, because the NBA is smart and they're getting money for broadcasting the games, I guess would be my assumption.

But it is interesting to think about, like, most of the times these other sports, there's no.

Nothing like it.

That's.

And so I don't really want to get caught up in making quick judgment calls.

Yes, great.

These guys are all showing that they're great, but once again, they're doing it against, I don't want to say inferior competition, but.

Inferior competition, right.

Like, it's.

It's not.

It's not great competition that they're doing.

The summer league's not filled with other number one picks.

Now, granted, there are guys.

Most team.

Most teams, yeah, there are second league year guys.

Like, I know Naquan Thomas playing, and he's been playing pretty good.

I don't know if.

Did he play tonight or did he not play tonight?

I feel like he did not play tonight, but I could be wrong.

So anyway, but like, these guys, anyone that's trying, anyone that's already really, like, solidified themselves and made a name for themselves, they're not playing in summer league really.

Like, they're just not doing it.

Like, you get one or two games and then you're out.

That's why I'm guessing they sat Thomas.

They got what they needed out of him.

They, you know, the bans, the sitting.

Like, it's just.

I don't want to get caught up.

Too much in the summer league, I guess, is what I'm saying.

I think it's great.

They get some reps in, they get to work with some coaches.

I don't Know how much, like, all the coach, like, just how much of a hand does Kenny Atkinson have in summer league is because, like, he's not coaching the team.

Right.

He's not on the sideline coaching the cap summer league team.

Andrew Olson is coaching one of our hoop heads podcast.

Andrew Olson coaching.

Coaching the Cavs team.

So, but, like, but, like, so how much is, like, is Kenny Atkinson even, like, involved or is he just.

This is what I want you to do.

Like, in some ways, yeah.

I don't know how much he's probably saying, like, I want you to work.

Have the guys work on this and talk about this and emphasize this.

But he's not, like, because honestly, Kenny Atkinson is going to deal with three guys, maybe four guys from this roster at most.

Malik, Thomas, Naquan Tomlin.

And then who knows if any of these other guys are going to have any say?

I would guess the most.

Like, obviously most of them aren't, but, like, so why.

Why would Atkinson, really, I don't want to say, be that concerned other than these, the guys we're focusing on.

So bottom line is this.

I don't want to get caught up in the summer league.

I. I think it's great, you know, great for the guys to get some reps in, things like that.

But the four guys that we all thought were going to be good look great so far.

But let's see.

Let's see what happens in the NBA once the actual game start, because when we can continue to go back to the terrible draft that you wanted, Jared Culver, because he, you and I both wanted Jared Culver, and then Jared Culver had a good summer league.

Jared Culver was out of the league within two years, Mike.

Right.

Three years.

He might have lasted longer than two, but he did not last long.

And he certainly never lived up to what you or I might have thought that he was going to be.

So, look, just.

I don't want to get stuck in the summer league stuff, I think.

Great.

Let's.

Let's see what happens when October and November rolls around and which these guys is making a name for themselves.

Because honestly, like, I.

Let's talk about, like, last year's summer league.

Do you remember Con Knippel being, like, having a great summer league last year?

No.

No.

Maybe.

But I have no idea.

I don't even know if he did.

All I remember from last summer league was that Cooper Flag looked good in the two games that he played and then he sat.

That's what I remember.

Which is, again, that's typically what that's typically what these guys do, right?

They play two, three games and then if they look good they're.

You sit them down and that's the end of it.

And so I think, look, with the interesting part about this summer league is that this draft was so hyped up that it's had a little bit more of a magnifying glass on it.

And obviously I already talked about Caleb Wilson and I think the next guy we just go in order Debance.

I think what he's shown is that he's gonna be able to score in the mid range, he's gonna be able to get to the rim and he's a really good athlete.

I think his ceiling is going to depend upon how well he develops as a three point shooter.

That's what ultimately I think is going to, he's going to score.

I don't have any question that he's going to be able to score.

Especially as a lefty.

He's just crafty, kind of in the mid post, he can get to the basket and he's got all the lefty kind of funky angles and things that lefties seem to do really well.

His ultimate ceiling I think is going to be determined by how well can he shoot threes.

And if he ends up becoming a 38% three point shooter, he's going to be a really, really, really good offensive player and he has the potential to be a good defensive player.

I just don't think he has the same instincts as Caleb Wilson.

And then you go to Cam Boozer and honestly Boozer I think has looked probably better maybe than I would have thought coming in just because he was packaged and advertised as a guy who was really smart.

He was packaged and advertised as a guy who just fundamentally was going to make the people around them around him better.

He was packaged as a guy who could shoot standstill threes, maybe not shoot off the dribble, coming off screen, role that kind of player, but a guy that could spot up and stretch the floor.

A guy who's going to be able to do things around the rim because of his strength and his ability to finish.

And I think he's proven to be all those things.

I think his upside is probably the lowest of the four, but I still think he probably could be based on what I've seen so far, he probably can be a multi time allstar.

But I think his ceiling of those four guys, I think his ceiling is the, is the lowest.

And then you take Peterson, who he's still an enigma.

Three summer league games or four summer league games, whatever he's played.

And he had two, two games where I think he had 12 turnovers.

In those games, he had nine turnovers, maybe in one game and 12 turnovers.

It was ridiculous.

But you can definitely see what people have seen or what people think he can be.

He's really smooth, he gets to his shots, he can play off the screen role, he can play in the mid range, he can shoot threes off the dribble, he can shoot threes off the catch, he can get to the rim, he's explosive.

He's going to be a really, really good offensive player.

I think the thing the jury's still out on just what kind of dude is Peterson.

And like, I don't have much question about the way that Boozer is wired.

I don't have much question about the way Caleb Wilson's wired or the way that the Bance is wired.

I think all three of those guys, I feel pretty confident that they are going to pan out in terms of work ethic and just taking their career seriously and being the kind of teammate that people want to play with, that kind of thing.

And Peterson just seems like still that's the unknown, but this talent for sure is there.

So I think I, to me, I think all four of these guys have lived up to the hype coming into summer league.

And as you said, it's summer league.

Does it really matter?

Probably not.

And we're going to see come October, November, December, as we get into the regular season, we'll get a better feel for where these guys are at.

But I think all four of them are going to be very, very, very good.

I just think Wilson's going to be the best player this year simply because he's probably going to get more opportunity than those other guys.

And I think 10 years from now we're going to look back and all these guys are going to have solid careers.

But I think Caleb Wilson is going to be the best of the four and then you can go and look at other guys down.

I know people have been kind of busting on Keaton Wagler, but he's had some better games the last couple games.

He's just not as explosive of an athlete.

So to me, he, he feels like a guy maybe who is going to be a really good player.

I don't like he seems additive to winning teams and this is going to be a bad comparison for a number five pick, but I think he could be a better version of like a Derrick White where he does lots and Lots of things.

Really.

Well, he's going to be maybe a 16, 6 and 6 type of guy who can be a pretty good defender.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if he's a 25 point a game scorer.

Whereas like Acuff might have a season where he scores 24 a game, but he's also not going to be very good defensively.

I think Mikhail Brown for the Nets is going to be a guy that he might even average 20 a game this year if he could stay healthy.

But again, little backcourt, he's like 6, 2.

Can you win with those guys?

Whereas maybe Wagler is not as exciting from a statistical standpoint, but when it comes to being on a winning team, maybe he ends up being a guy that contributes more to winning even though his statistics aren't as good.

And so it'll be very interesting to see how all this pans out.

But I think the draft people thought it was going to be a really good draft coming in and there's been nothing in summer league that has shown me that anything that's gone on in the draft was, was, was off base.

Landenberg's been great for Golden State.

He's put up, he's put up big numbers.

You're just saying.

How might.

You're just saying names to me now.

I don't.

That's.

Listen, the D. Moz Johnson for Dallas has been good.

Mara.

I think people have said maybe Mara hasn't been quite as good as what people thought for Oklahoma City.

But generally speaking, man, it's the draft.

People thought it was going to be a good draft and, and summer league has done nothing but reinforce the fact that it's going to.

I think this is going to be a pretty special draft and especially those top four guys are going to be fun to watch and see them kind of a battle against each other, but also just fight it out over the next four or five years to see who has the best, who has the best career.

It's going to be, it's going to be super interesting.

So what you're saying is we're actually going to have to have a conversation about who's having the best career and it might actually be like four guys who have legitimately great careers.

Instead of The John Morant vs. Zion Williamson conversation that we have, would you rather have John Morant or Zion Williamson?

Well, that, that one, that one's forever going to be.

I, I don't even know if we're ever going to have an answer.

Mike.

That didn't age well and it didn't age in the way that we certainly thought that it was going to in terms of.

It's now more of who had the.

I don't know if more disappointing.

But man, two guys with such tremendous potential, not only just as basketball players but as stars in the league.

Two guys with the type of game that people love to watch and man, both of them just have kind of fallen off from that for various reasons.

The two of them got drafted.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So the next thing we're going to talk about is the Victor Wembanyama contract.

Five years, 252 million contract extension.

He's getting a 25 max value instead of the 30% 0 max.

He gave a little bit of a hometown discount.

I. I have not.

Like I didn't even realize that he took less than what he could have gotten.

So I. Congratulations to the Spurs.

I guess I'm going to say he must.

He values winning, I guess, and he wants to make sure that he has the other guys on his team still around.

I guess this would be my take key takeaways.

I think what's interesting is like, you know, he's obviously doing this and he didn't need to do that, you know, and, and that's great and.

But it's also when you think about it very early in his career.

So he's going to have a chance to have his cake and eat it later too.

Like he's going to get money later as long as he stays healthy.

Right?

He's got to stay healthy.

But congrats to the spurs and I guess great job.

Victor Weminyama.

I don't know.

I don't know what else to say to that.

I mean, it makes a lot of sense.

And if I'm the Spurs and he's willing to do it, I make a whole heck of a lot of sense.

And if I'm Victor Romanyama, you know, he wants to continue to be in the good graces and be a well liked player.

I guess this is a good move for him too.

So turn down, essentially it's like $10 million a year and basically that kicker is the same kicker that Mobley had in his contract where if you get first team all NBA or defensive player of the year or one of the other major awards, then that bumps you up from 25% of the cap to 30% of the cap.

And he basically declined to have that particular clause included in his max contract.

So that's the contract that I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that Chad Holmgren signed as well, where he did not get that extra 5% written into his contract based on those metrics.

So if you're Victor Wembanyama, you do that with the idea that it helps the spurs maintain some flexibility moving forward.

When you have in a couple years you got Stefan Castle and then a year or two after that you're going to have Dylan Harper.

And clearly those two guys, based on their trajectory, are probably going to be in line for a similar type of deal to the one that Victor Weyama got.

Now, are they going to be willing to forego those kickers in the contract?

Again, are they as likely as Victor to be first team all NBA or Defensive Player of the Year?

Probably not.

However, it seems like you would probably put those in.

Most players are going to try to get and squeeze every last dime that they can out of the team, and understandably so.

And no one would fault Victor when Minyama for wanting that kicker in there to go from 25% to 30%, which again, $10 million a year.

I guess when you're making 252 million over five years, it doesn't seem quite as big.

But when you just isolate it by itself and you say he's giving up approximately $10 million a year, that seems like a fairly decent sized sacrifice.

But again, it speaks to kind of what Womenyama has said from the time that he was first on the NBA's radar, that he wants to be the best player, he wants to win games, he wants to win when he wants to win championships.

And we saw what happened with Jalen Brunson when he gave the Knicks a hometown discount.

It gives the Knicks a little bit more flexibility to be able to sign guys, to be able to make the Mikhail Bridges trade, to be able to build a quality roster around said star if that star is not at the absolute maximum salary that they can get.

It's just like the Cavs super excited, right, that Evan Mobley is named Defensive Player of the Year in terms of his play on the floor, in the front office, on the spreadsheet.

Not so excited that Evan Mobley was named Defensive Player of the Year.

Would have been much better for the Cavs cap sheet moving forward had Evan Mobley finished second in the Defensive Player of the year voting and therefore he would only be 25% of the cap instead of 30.

So that's the problem.

And I know that there's been lots of discussion in the different NBA pods that I've listened to about that.

That's a problem.

The Cavs shouldn't have to root against Evan Mobley being named the Defensive Player of the year.

In order to free up money to be able to have more roster flexibility.

They should want their players to be first team all NBA or MVP or Defensive Player of the year, whatever it may be that is going to bump that salary up.

They should want all that for their player.

But yet at the same time, you can see where there's a disincentive for that to happen because now you're adding an extra whatever.

With Mobley it's probably not 10 million.

Maybe with Mobley it's an extra $7 million a year.

But that extra $7 million could go to help bolster your bench or to be able to bring in guys or whatever it might be or to just avoid more tax payment.

So that's one of the things when you look at this collective bargaining agreement and I forget how many years it runs, but it's still got a long way to go.

But the second apron penalties and just the fact that you have this 5%, 10% kicker that comes in from 25 to 30% makes a huge difference in how a team builds out their roster when they have a guy that goes from that 25% to that 30% max.

And so for when Minyama to not put that in his contract definitely is a win for the spurs for their long term team building.

Does that mean that Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper will do the same thing?

Not necessarily.

But when Minyama, as you said, if he stays healthy, he's going to have an opportunity to make a lot of money.

And he's already going to make a lot of money on this contract.

250 Million for five years is not too shabby.

He's going to average $50 million a season, which pretty good money even for an NBA player.

And so it certainly gives the Spurs a little bit more flexibility than they would have had had that 30% max.

Beside and women yaba meet met the standards that would have would have triggered it.

So it's a win for the Spurs.

I think in all honesty, look, none of us standing here would turn down an extra $10 million a year.

Would be very difficult for any person to do that.

But at the same time there is some personal incentive.

I Think here for women, Yama, that if you can build a better roster, you have a better chance of being able to compete for championships.

And if you're a guy who wants to be thought of with the very best in the history of the game, then as we've seen and as we've talked about many, many times, winning is what drives a lot of the talk about who the very best players are.

Right.

The best guys at the top and the top 10 in the NBA history are guys that have won multiple championships.

And if you haven't won or you've only won one, it bumps you down.

Regardless of what your statistical profile looks like, it bumps you down.

If Jokic never wins another title, he's going to have a hard time climbing much higher than wherever you have him now in the top 15, let's say, or the top 20.

He's probably not cracking the top eight with one title based on the guys who are up there.

And so that's, I think, where, when Wembanyama looks at it long term, that maybe the sacrifice of the money is worth the opportunity to win little bit more.

So it's an interesting contract, certainly, and not necessarily what everybody expected, but I think there's logic on both sides.

But clearly it's a win for the Spurs.

And then on the Wembanyama side, he wants to win, too, and maybe sacrificing 10 million a year to have a chance to build a better roster that has a better chance to win multiple championships moving forward.

Probably a win for Victor as well.

Okay.

Yeah, for sure.

And then like to talk about the opposite side of the spectrum, Mike, on contracts, the Gary Trent contract we pull up.

Let me just.

Let's discuss Gary Trent.

The last two seasons has been paying the veterans minimum, Mike.

And then he must have had a breakout season this year because now he's getting paid four years, 64 million.

That'd be 16 million a year over the next four years, essentially.

Let's look at his stats from last year, Mike, off the bench.

Oh, he shot a 39% from the field off the bench this year, Mike.

That sure sounds like he deserves a $12 million race.

Everybody in the league, from what I've heard read in multiple sources, is that pretty much every front office in the league is looking at it going, this is clearly some shenanigans going on here where they had made a promise to Gary Trent of hey, we're going to take care of you.

But right now we're trying to build around Giannis.

We don't have the money and we're going to pay you the veterans minimum, but we're going to eventually take care of you.

And unfortunately, Gary Trent didn't live up to his end of the bargain last year and put up a high quality statistical season, again, at least compared to what he's done in the past.

And so it seems very strange.

And then you look at some of the contracts of guys that are, I would say, similar to Gary Trent.

I know one comparison was Kevin Herder, right, who signed with the Pistons.

I believe he was three years, 27 million.

So he's at like $9 million a year.

And I know Herder didn't play much for the Pistons, but he was playing for Sacramento and certainly he was at least as productive.

Or in a similar vein, I think Tim Hardaway Jr. Got 1 year, 6 million to go to Miami, which in a vacuum.

Would you rather have Tim Hardaway or would you rather have Gary Trent Jr.

Certainly, I'd rather have Tim Hardaway for one year, 6 million that I would Gary Trent for four years, for 64.

So it just, it doesn't fit the market and it doesn't fit the trajectory of how he was performing statistically in his career.

So, yeah, it's, it's very questionable.

I don't know what the league can or will do about it, but it certainly looks fishy, let's put it that way.

Yeah, fishy for sure.

All right.

And then the last.

Speaking of fishy, Kawhi Leonard saga continues.

Mike Kawhi the NBA announces the trade cannot commence until the investigation is complete.

Adam Silver said yesterday in a press conference that the investigation has to be done before the summer is over, but not really that that was as much information.

So here's what.

Listen, you've had since this came up in like, I don't know, was the first rumblings of this aspire.

Like, I want the trans.

Aspiration.

I want the timeline here.

Like, when did this, when did this originally come out?

Was it.

I feel like it was like October, right?

It was like, right?

I believe it was.

I believe it was before the season started last year.

We've had almost a year.

It's.

You don't have enough information now.

Aspire Kawhi aspiration Kawhi scandal timeline.

That's what I want to know.

Like, I want to know what, like.

So we're almost at a year.

We're almost at a year here.

Like, you need to be done, make a decision, suspend him, find the Clippers, which they probably should do both of those things.

You let him play out his whole thing.

The Clippers were probably like, I just want to get him off my team, so we'll trade him to Toronto.

And then the NBA is like, no, this is like I'm having flashbacks to David Stern saying, no, this trade is not going through.

Yeah, but here's the thing is I.

My understanding is that what happened is.

And this is my understanding of it from listening to Zach Lowe is what happened was, is that the Raptors.

Went.

To the league before making the trade, and the league told them basically the same thing that they just told them two weeks ago.

Whatever ramifications occur with Kawhi, you will be responsible for those ramifications if they happen.

And.

Right at that time, the Raptors went and I'm sure did their due diligence, trying to figure out as much as they could about the investigation, whatever they make the trade with the Clippers, and according to what Zach Lowe said that there was potentially a document or documents, an addendum to, as the two teams were filing the trade, the NBA put in writing, basically, hey, no matter what happens in the investigation, if Kawhi is then on the Raptors and this trade is consummated, that you, as the Raptors will be responsible for the fallout.

That is the punishment of Kawhi, whatever it is, his contract, his whatever fines, suspensions, does his contract just get voided and he becomes a free agent and then Toronto doesn't even have it all and Kawhi go wherever he wants.

So I think at that point, according to Zach, what happened is, is that the Raptors looked at it and said, we can't do that.

They.

He feels like there may have been some more information at that point coming forth that made the Raptors think that maybe there was going to be a punishment for Kawhi, whereas before they were maybe under the impression that there was not going to be anything for Kawhi.

And so I don't know that it was the league necessarily stepping in and saying, hey, you can't make this trade.

It was the league saying, hey, if you make this trade, just understand that the ramifications from what happened, wherever Kawhi is, that team is going to be the one that is going to pay the price in terms of whatever punishment there was for Kawhi.

And so I think at that point, the Raptors kind of got gold cold feet and said, hey, we're going to put this on hold.

We still want Kawhi, but we're going to put this on hold until this thing is moved forward.

And I think the greater point, which is the one you were making, is this thing has dragged on forever.

And again, what it tells you is that there's a lot of different people that the league had to talk to.

There has to be at least some smoke, which doesn't always necessarily mean there's a fire.

But if it was clear cut and dried that he and the Clippers didn't do anything, it seems like that would have been fairly easy to determine that, hey, there's nothing here.

But it feels like they've probably found enough hints of something being wrong that they decided, hey, we can't put out a verdict without basically uncovering every stone and turning over every leaf to see what might be under there.

And I think that's kind of where they're at, is they don't want to end up in a situation where they say, okay, everything's clear, Clippers didn't do anything wrong.

Kawhi didn't do anything wrong.

There was no money that was pushed out.

And boom, all of a sudden now we have these things.

Guys, somebody comes out.

Pablo Torre comes out with another podcast as well.

I talked to Guy X, who used to be the assistant to the vice president at Aspiration, and he said this or he showed me this document.

And then the league spent a year doing an investigation and then got it wrong.

And I think that's what the league is worried about, is the league wants to get it right.

It seems insane that it's taking this long for that to happen, but I think that's where the league is, is they just don't want to end up with egg on their face where something comes out after they put out a verdict.

Even if they've only.

Even if they're at 90, even if they're 99.

Sure.

The 1% chance that somebody out there finds out something or uncovers a witness or finds.

I don't really, I don't really want to like, compare the two because they are not the same.

But like, the NFL had Deshaun Watson on like that commissioner's exempt list when the investigation was going on.

Why wouldn't the NBA have something similar?

Once again, they're not the same.

I want to be clear here.

They are not the same.

And where desean Watson is in the hierarchy of NBA history players and where Kawhi Leonard is, is slightly different.

So they are not the same.

But like, is it, can you think of any time in history that that would have that that could have theoretically been used.

Like, if they were thinking, if he gets this, like, here's the question.

Just let me just hype.

Like, hyp.

Like, or say something.

And like, if.

If the Clippers would have had a great season and they win the NBA championship.

Okay, they didn't.

And we get to this point and they're like, oh, we're gonna sustain.

Like, does this become, like, the NCAA scandal where they take titles away?

Like, Like, I don't even know.

What does it look like?

Like, if, If.

If they're seriously going to punish this at this point?

They went.

I had went all last season, they let him play, and now they're going to suspend him.

Like, I'm not saying he shouldn't be suspended, but don't you think that kind of is wild?

It's very wild.

It speaks to.

I think it speaks to the difference between the NCAA and the NBA in some respects, that the NCAA just kind of has always been kind of a cartel where the players, the member schools don't necessarily have a ton of ways to come back at the ncaa, whereas in the NBA, you have teams and players who would have their own sets of lawyers and litigate that stuff and whatever.

So I think there's.

There's that piece of it.

But I do think, again, it's interesting, the point that you raised, that if Kawhi suddenly was found to have circumvented the cap and knowingly took this money from aspiration without.

With the knowledge that he wasn't going to have to do anything in order to be able to collect the money and whatever else.

Yeah.

If he gets suspended 50 games this next season, it seems very, very odd that he could just go about his merry way and play.

And yet in this country, right, you're innocent until proven guilty, and he hasn't been proven guilty of anything.

And so I guess the counter argument would be the NBA is doing their investigation.

They either find him innocent and he moves forward with no repercussions, or they find him guilty of something, and then there's a punishment handed down.

And that punishment begins from the moment that the guilty verdict, for lack of a better way of saying it, is rendered.

So I don't know exactly how this should have played out.

What I do know is that it feels like, at least from the outside, that it is taking an exorbitant amount of time to sort this thing out.

And Adam Silver coming out and saying that, hey, we want to get this resolved this summer.

Honestly, that statement doesn't give me a whole lot of hope or confidence that it actually is going to get solved this summer.

And to be quite honest, I won't be surprised if this thing drags very, very close to training camp before they make a decision.

Because again, I think the NBA, to me what I see is that they don't want to make a mistake and then have a journalist come and find something, a witness, a document, an email, the smoking gun that they weren't able to find over the course of a year long investigation.

I think that's what they're really worried about.

So that's why they're trying to look under every rock, turn over every leaf and see if they can find whatever they need to be able to feel as confident as they possibly can that they've done everything in their power to be able to get to the truth, whatever that truth might be.

And so I think ultimately my guess is, is that it results.

The, the end result of this thing, if I had to guess, is that they're gonna find that something went on.

I don't know exactly what they're gonna say went on, but Kawhi is probably going to get fined.

I wouldn't even be surprised if he gets a five game suspension or a 10 game suspension and the Clippers get fined and then it kind of all goes away.

I don't think it's going to be a situation where Ballmer is going to have to sell the team or, or Kawhi is going to get suspended for 50 games or a season.

I don't think his contract's going to get voided.

I don't think it's going to be all that.

But I do think that there's going to be a punishment for both entities.

I don't think the verdict after all this is going to be, hey, there's nothing to see here, let's move on.

I, I find it very hard to believe because I think if you do that and then something else comes out, you look really bad.

If you go out a punishment to Kawhi and you do a lot of punishment to the Clippers and then something else comes out, you can always say, well, we kind of knew about that, but we took it into consideration.

Or we, we thought that might be the case and we tried to balance that with what we knew for sure and that's why the suspension was X or that's why the fine was X.

They can kind of backpedal and, and allow themselves to kind of explain away what it might be.

Whereas if you go 100% innocent or you Go year long suspension, Ballmer has to sell the team.

Those both seem like that at the far ends of the extreme spectrum.

I think the NBA lands somewhere safe in the middle where they can cover themselves no matter what may come out in the future.

If that makes any sense to you.

Makes sense.

Makes complete sense.

All right, Mike, I think that's it.

That's it.

All right.

I have one more question for you.

Yeah.

Is there any chance that James Harden is not on the Cleveland Cavaliers last next year?

I mean if, if the trades thing that I saw that brings Kyrie back to the Cavs and LeBron.

No, that's not happening.

That's not, that's not happening.

That's not happening.

Is there, but is there any way, is there any path, is there any path forward for this Cavs team?

Well, here's, here's my question.

Here's my question.

Okay.

If the guy who we're not naming doesn't sign with the Cavs, okay.

Then I, I think if you don't have him, James Harden, then you're screwed regardless.

I mean, you're screwed regardless.

Okay.

Okay.

Let's be honest here.

But I feel like there's nowhere else out there unless you can get a sign and trade for something for James Harden, but who wants him for a signing trade?

That's we're going to be worthwhile.

And then if the guy who we're not going to mention his name sign comes to Cleveland, then he's definitely going to be here.

I think, I think he's on this Cavs team no matter what.

Mike, I just don't see, I just don't.

Because whether, you know, whether we want to admit it or not, like if he's not on the team, then our team is going to be significantly worse in the regular season next year and they're not going to have a chance.

Take the divorce ourselves from the thoughts.

But the playoffs, okay, like if we don't have him in the regular season and we don't have the other guy in the regular season, are we, are we a, are we a 50 win team?

Yeah.

As a regular season innings eater, I think Harden is plus and he was a plus.

I think last year in the regular season partly because Darius Garland just didn't play and Harden was at least on the floor.

You agree with the con, the concept though that nothing is going to happen with James Harden until he who shall not be named makes a decision one way or the other, right?

They're not.

Nothing's going to happen with Harden because they want to keep that money free for our guy.

So we'll see.

I don't know.

It'll be interesting.

I, I just, I think you made a great point of who would want to trade for James Harden.

Well, last year the Cleveland Cavaliers wanted to trade for James Harden.

Against anyone's better judgment, I still, and I think it was proven in the playoffs.

Again, if you're trying to win a title, I just don't know how James Harden helps you to do that.

If that's your goal, and if your goal is to win 50 games and you're the Cleveland Cavaliers next year, then sure, James Harden helps you to do that.

But I just don't think that James Harden is going to get you to an NBA championship if he's a key part of your team.

And we'll see.

And hopefully they can, if they do sign him, hope they get it at a major discount so it's not a huge hit to whatever else they might try to do.

So we shall see.

No big news over the last week or so, but just some small things that we hit on that we thought were important.

So we'll see if the big hammer drops at any point.

Moving forward, we've got three just to give people our schedule, we've got three regular episodes that are waiting to be released, one roundtable and two interview episodes.

And I'm going to be on vacation for a little while and Jason probably will be doing his dad duties.

And so we're probably going to have a week, the last week of July where we probably will not put out any pods, be the first time in a while that we haven't done that.

Or we may do some rebroadcasts of some old episodes we'll have to see.

But we'll be back with our next NBA episode probably the first week of August.

And we shall see.

Unless something happens in the next two days.

Unless something happens in the next two days.

Then we might get an emergency pod that we can bring on.

And there was an ESPN notification right there just coming through on my phone, so I don't know what it was.

Something about the ESPYs, not something about you shall not be named.

So anyway, that's kind of what we have coming up, so maybe a little summer hiatus of new episodes there in the last week of July.

But we'll have plenty of content for you.

And if you're just discovering the Hoop Heads podcast, there's plenty of back episodes that you can go back and listen to.

So thanks for checking out tonight's NBA episode of the Hoop Heads Podcast and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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