We train psychologists to think brilliantly… but no one really teaches us how to feel. In this episode we explore embodied practice in psychology, including how to manage stress, anger, burnout, trauma, and emotional overwhelm through the body rather than just the mind.I’m joined again by Dr Sunil Lad, Consultant Counselling Psychologist and NHS Clinical Director, and we discuss why many clinicians feel disconnected from their bodies and what changes when we begin to work bottom-up instead of top-down.This episode is essential for psychologists, therapists, and anyone who feels stuck in their head, overwhelmed, or unable to switch off.

⏱️ Timestamps

1. 00:00 Why psychologists aren’t taught to feel
2. 01:12 What is embodied practice in psychology?
3. 02:18 Thinking vs feeling – getting out of your head
4. 02:43 Transference, countertransference and body awareness
5. 03:33 Anger, expression and safe emotional release
6. 04:35 Anger vs violence – why they’re not the same
7. 05:46 Compassion-focused therapy and emotional triggers
8. 06:35 Checking in with your body in daily life
9. 07:40 Social media, stress and nervous system activation
10. 09:30 Building body awareness through movement and curiosity
11. 11:54 Discomfort vs pain – learning your body’s signals
12. 13:25 Why growth takes time (no quick fixes)
13. 14:45 Embodiment as stress buffering for psychologists
14. 15:45 Coping vs nourishing – how we regulate after hard days
15. 17:11 “The body keeps the score” in clinical work
16. 19:30 Bringing embodiment into supervision
17. 21:00 Starting small – where to begin with embodied practice
18. 22:58 Playfulness, movement and reconnecting with the body
19. 24:04 Slowing down in a fast-paced world
20. 25:13 Trying new experiences and building neural pathways
21. 26:10 Where to find Dr Sunil Lad + his work
22. 26:50 Final reflections – what stayed with me

Links:

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We train psychologists to think brilliantly, but no one really teaches us how to feel. Not properly, not in our bodies. Today I'm joined again by Dr. Sunil Lad, consultant counselling psychologist, and we're talking about something most clinicians were never trained in, embodied practise. Because here's the uncomfortable truth, you can analyse anger, you can formulate trauma, you can intellectually understand stress and still be completely disconnected from your own body. In this episode, we explore what happens when you stop trying to think your way out of discomfort and start learning the way to feel your way through it instead. If you work in mental health, if you live in your own head, or if you're constantly on and don't know how to switch off, this conversation is for you. Hope you'll find it really helpful. If you do, please comment, like, and subscribe for more. Hi, welcome along to the podcast.

I am joined again today by the incredible Dr. Sunil Lad, who is a consultant counselling psychologist. Hi, Sunil.

Hi, Marianne. Good to see you again.

Lovely to have you here. And today we are talking about a different topic for anybody who might want to catch up on our previous episode where we're talking about growing up in a different body, please do check that out. Could I ask you what embodied practise means to you?

Yeah. So I think that's a really important question. So when was it? Back eight, nine years ago now, I trained as a yoga teacher. But before that, one of the things I started to recognise that being a psychologist very much got stuck in the head. And what embodied practise means to me is actually how do we start to feel, not just in our head, but within our bodies, but started to link in that sense of felt experience, whether that is an emotion, but be able to move it through the body, for example, not just through thinking differently.

So are we talking about when we're with a client, for example, when we notice a physical reaction to something they say? Are we talking about that level of connectedness and sharing our journey? Or are we more talking about our own embodied practise and a sense of ourself in our body? Could you talk to us about that?

Yeah, that's a really good question, Marianne. I often don't ... If we think from a psychology perspective, there's often feelings of transference, kind of transference. We might feel something in our body, but we often go into this sense of interpretation. What I like about embodied practises, when we start to feel from the bottom up rather than the top down, it's that sense of, well, actually, how could I, if for example, I'm feeling anger, rather than using a technique to switch it off or to say this anger is not real. Actually, an embodied practise might be about how do I use my breath? How do I use my body? How do I scream and shout, for example, in order to let it go, but without a sense of needing to hurt anyone?

Yeah. Okay. When I was working in youth prisons, my job was to look at anger and young people. I would be so much better at that job now than I was in my mid-twenties, mid to late twenties, I'll say. And at the time, lots of advice around how to deal with anger was go and punch a pillow or go and kick something. And actually, even at the time I was thinking, I'm not sure this is right. I'm not sure this is sitting right with me because that is showing that we need to be able to do something physical to almost kind of decompress this anger. And that I just don't think is functional. And sometimes that has been picked up in a household as a learned strategy, as a copied strategy of watching grownups deal with conflict, watch grownups deal with anger. And actually it's really interesting when we work clinically with people is that often they think anger and violence are the same and they're not.

It's possible to be angry and write a strongly worded letter to Asda. It doesn't always mean that you're going in and you're smashing things up and scaring or intimidating people, does it?

No, not at all. And I think there's something about actually how do you really sit with what that anger might mean? And it's often, what is it triggered off for you? What does that mean, for example? And I guess again, I work from a very much a CFT, a compassionate mind perspective. And thinking from an evolutionary perspective, so what is it about this experience that has set off that level of defence? Is it something that really needs to be there? But also, what have I learned throughout my life, which means that this pattern keeps playing itself out, for example? Why does someone cutting me up really create that angry response? Is it that actually I thought I was going to die, for example? Or is it just become, like you said, a learned behaviour where anyone, because it's about me as a person, how dare they do that type of thing to me?

So I think there's something about how I use my yoga practises to not only be aware, and I'm not just talking about the physical yoga, which we often see, but a lot more of the deeper yoga knowledge that I'm aware of that I've been studying over the last few years, that get me a sense of, well, what does nonviolence mean, for example?

Yeah. And I think it's only really probably my experiences with yoga and Pilates that get me to check in with my body fairly regularly. And I'm like, "Oh, Marianne, drop those shoulders down." We don't want to be wearing those earrings. And just the difference that that level of attunement to our body and kind of checking in mindfully in that moment can be transformational, can't

It? Yeah. And I think that's a really important point to think about in terms of how we live our lives at the moment. We're often not checking into our bodies. Instead, what we're doing, we're looking outside, we're checking our phones, we're checking even all those different gadgets, which might tell you your blood pressure is high, your pulse is high, you're not sleeping rather than really asking yourself and developing the tools to actually understand, well, what is it that you actually are feeling in your body? How do you train yourself? How do you start to practise all those things that make you shine that spotlight into yourself? And I think the way that we live our lives now is very different to many hundreds, thousands of years ago, for example, when we were connecting to nature, walking around, doing all those things. No wonder the NHS has got all sorts of problems with people with their backs and all of those kind of things because actually in terms of how we've developed, actually we are not necessarily practising those things.

We're living lives which are quite sedentary, so we're not looking after our bodies in the same way. We're feeding ourselves all sorts of stuff, which can be really unhelpful. Over the last couple of weeks, I've tried to have a bit of a detox off social media. It's quite interesting what kind of information that feeds our mind, especially at the moment with whatever's going on in the world. Actually, how that can also lead to that sense of fight and flight constantly coming on because we're getting angry by what we're seeing, but also what the algorithms are doing. They're not giving us hopeful messages all the time. They're giving really kind of dark and dangerous things at times, or also lots of divisive messages that start to make us feel fearful or hatred towards other groups as well.

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think anything that we do that gets us to really think about our body in the moment can almost show us when we're using it not properly. So I've been weight training for just over four years now and very accidental. That's a whole story how that happened. But I now, when I'm stacking my dishwasher, will get myself into a position where I can do flat back to do it. And that actually is going to be much more protective of my back than kind of hunching over and kind of just not using my body in a way that's going to prevent injury. And even the way I stand when I'm boiling the kettle, I'm just more purposeful about the way that I use my weight distribution. Are there any other ways that we can kind of start to become more embodied?

I really like the particular word that you focused on, start because often people talk about, "Oh, well, I can't do yoga because I'm not flexible." Because I've seen this kind of picture of mainly it's women, but women doing bendy positions in a way. And yoga has now become that in itself. I think what I'd say is that actually what we need to learn to do is actually, what is the relationship we need to have with our body? Again, focusing on the whole kind of compassionate mind three systems, trying to think about the intention that you go to a class with in order to develop that relationship with the body, trying to avoid getting into that blue system, the drive system, the achievement system. We often even do different practises to achieve something. So how can we look at doing practises just to develop a relationship?

How do we develop that relationship to our body and be just really curious? How can we be playful? So if, for example, you do decide to have, you decide to load your dishwasher, what if you moved in a certain way, in a different way? What if, for example, one of the experiments I often do is if you clasp your hands together, what does that feel like? Now what I'd like you to do is change whatever the thumb ... So if your left thumb was over your right thumb, moving it. Now just kind of sensing and feeling that in the body, it might feel really weird because what you've just done is that you've just created this new pattern in your brain. And I think we get used to how our brains have been conditioned in a way, and we just want that all the time because it feels comfortable.

Whereas we drew something new and it's like, "Oh, that doesn't feel nice." But the more you keep practising it in that way, actually you'll just become accustomed to it. So the same way, how do we start? How do we start to develop that small relationship to our body? Be really curious and get a sense of, actually, if I've got tightness, if I've got inflexibility, how can I be curious about it rather than shut myself off from it or just avoid doing it? Yeah.

I think it's that idea when I've been doing strength training or even yoga for that matter, you've almost got to be able to tune into the different sensations your body can give you. So it can give you a little rumble like, oh, don't carry on that because that hurts. But when it's sweet pain, when it's kind of ligaments and tendons stretching, maybe we can tolerate that for a little bit longer. Obviously, if it's a searing, stabbing pain, then we should stop that, but we can tolerate some uncomfortableness and that might be an essential part of growing.

So I think one of the things I often focus on is how do we be more comfortable about being uncomfortable? I think obviously growing up, life is uncomfortable. And I think what we've got to learn is how do we learn to sit with that in a better way? I think we've got loads of resources available towards now, which means that people want the easiest option, the quickest hack. And again, we're fed all this information through social media and stuff. We want the quick, easy answer in a way, but actually sometimes for our growth, I look back now and even in my yoga practise, in my physical practises, I look back now and there are things that I can ever do when I started where I can now, but that's taken years, but we're often on the mindset, actually in three classes, I want to get that done.

After this prescription, it needs to be sorted, but that's not always possible. So I think it's really important we think about what needs to take a bit of time. How do we rewire our brain, but that takes a bit of time and effort as well.

And I'm thinking about the embodied stuff as a way of buffering our stress as well. So I'm aware that I often will go to a Sunday lunchtime. If my kids aren't playing football, it is a Sunday lunchtime yoga class. And it's a really nice, slow pace. So it is challenging at parts, but it's probably not the kind of class I might go to on a Saturday morning or on a Wednesday evening where I might want something a bit more stretchy, but it's about honouring that actually this is a really nice wind down to the week. It's a really nice chance to check in with my body and to honour it and to know that in giving it that hour to rest, to recharge, to gently stretch, to feel strength and power and mastery, that that might well serve me incredibly well in all areas of my life.

Yeah. And I think it's really important for us to kind of recognise, well, what are those strategies that we use? Sometimes that can be helpful in the short term, but actually in the long term, they might not be very helpful. So I think as you were talking, it really made me think about actually when I first started working in prisons throughout my careers has felt difficult, hearing some really difficult stories. And sometimes back in the past, one of the things that I would do, if I'd had a really tough day, heard some really awful things, I'd kind of give myself a glass of wine or two, and that'd be a way to try to decompress, or I guess it might be a bit of chocolate. And everyone's coping strategies will be different that they've developed over their lifetime, whether it is food, internet, anything, anything that is kind of addictive in a way, that gives comfort.

And I think that's the thing we need to kind of recognise, well, our body is constantly seeking comfort in a way. And I remember once one of the things that happened, I had a really tough day and I decided actually, rather than have a glass of wine tonight, I'm going to get on my yoga mat. And I got on my yoga mat and actually just the story that I'd heard was kind of continuing to go through my head and then I'd just put a random playlist on and suddenly this song just really kind of really touched me. And next thing I know, I'm just in floods of tears with just the level of suffering that I'd sat with that client that day. And I think there is something about how do we learn to nourish our bodies in a way which we're not often taught, which doesn't feel real.

So it might be going for a walk or again, something where we can just start to slow down. I think we're living in such a fast-paced world that slowing down feels quite wrong. It's like, "Oh no, I've not got time to slow down." But I think we probably get more awareness, more understanding once we do slow down. And I think it's about how do we give ourselves permission to do that really?

Yeah. And I think it's always holding in mind the kind of theory from the Bethel Vanderkolt, the body keeps the score. If you hadn't done that, how can we know that that wouldn't have shown up somewhere later in your body, that it just would've kept that all in. And so it's allowing, I think for me, it's building ways for us to move our body kind of fully in different ways to see what thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations that conscious for us. And knowing that if we are working in mental health, being subjected to either harrowing things that we hear or scary things or really just emotive sad things, yeah, that does take its toll and we need to honour ourselves as humans. And often we can't tell people this stuff. This is the tricky thing about being in our job. You might be able to talk to it with someone in your team who it's relevant to, but not everybody, and your supervisor and anyone in the managerial chain, but you can't be talking to everybody and people in your friendship circle and family about this.

And so often what might be your go- to strategy, you might be talking, it's kind of off limits. And so you're having to think, "Well, what else can I do?

" Yeah, and I think there's something about what embodiment has meant for me. I think we might sometimes get caught up in the thinking loop needing to analyse it. But like you said, in terms of some of the work that Bess Elvander Colt says, actually our body can also process things as well. And that's why, whether it is any kind of somatic movement that we do, whether it's singing or dancing or yoga or any kind of expression of the body, how do we start to allow that to allow the energy to move through our body in terms of that trapped sense, the fear, the pain, the anguish of what it is to be human.

Do you think this is something people ought to be starting to bring to supervision? The way they're using their bodies to help manage life and to manage their kind of work experiences as well. And if they should be, how might that look during a supervision session, especially if it's not something that your supervisors previously raised with you, how could they begin to do that, Sannelle?

So I guess I'd say get creative, and that could be starring a supervision session off with checking into the body. How often do we start off dependent on your modality with, right, well, what's on your agenda for supervision? Actually, yes, I try and just check in with my colleagues of, "Well, how are you? " But it's often what we've done over the weekend, but actually what if we did a bit of a check-in of, how are you in your body right now? What does it feel like when you're talking about this case and this problem that you're talking about, can we just check in? Because I'm recognising this is bringing up lots of thoughts. How's it making your body feel? So maybe there is just some kind of quick prompts that you could do, especially when there is a high level of difficulty or a really tricky, sticky problem to try and bring the focus back to the body because sometimes, especially as psychologists, we love a good analysis and a formulation of something.

But I guess grabbing that, one of the things that I love try to bring into my thinking is yoga wisdom as well. And within yogic wisdom, you've got something called the koshers, which is the different levels. So you've got the body, the energetic body, the mind body, and the kind of bliss body and stuff. But how do we start to bring those different bodies into our thinking because it isn't just about the mind?

Yeah, absolutely. And anyone listening or watching this might be like, "This whole body thing, this is so different than what I'm used to. " My parents weren't physically connected to their bodies, the people around me, people didn't really exercise. We've all been very sedentary. It might sound like it's so alien to where you are right now. How would you begin to just be curious and do something differently?

So I think it's important to, like I said, start somewhere small. Again, the reflection might be of not only the environment you were growing up in, but also what was your journey? So is it? Again, we think growing up here in England, the vast majority of our school life, we are just sitting. We're taking in learning through sitting. I think things are changing a bit more, but actually just recognising apart from those couple of hours a week that we'd have PE, we'd generally be sitting for long ... A lot of our learning comes through sitting, but we know, for example, how we've developed as human beings, when we flourishes through learning through play, for example. So how do we firstly recognise that? But then how do we introduce that playful aspect to our day-to-day lives because we can become so serious in learning as well.

So how do we get more playful in terms of learning that relationship with the body? And that could be various things using the five senses, using other people and working towards that. Or even, for example, if you have got a general practise of exercise, and not necessarily talking about yoga, but even just going to the gym, how can you start to really focus on how does your body feel when you're doing that? Again, are you focusing on achievement when you're doing an exercise or are you focusing on connection? So a couple of weeks ago, I actually got the privilege of teaching just doing some yoga practise to help staff actually to be more aware of their bodies. We were thinking about self-care and that relationship and just to recognise actually how often we get stuck in the threat system, even though we might be sitting, breathing, there might be tension.

We might be having a thought about, "Oh gosh, this long list of things I've got to do. " And just noticing actually, so when you're in that state of mind, where in your body do you feel that? If you were to direct your breath and just try to slow down your breath in that very physical way, what starts to shift in your awareness, for example. So that slowing down is extremely important.

It really is. And I'm a gym member and what I really love is just going along to a different class that I might not have done before, seeing how my body and how my mind reacts to that. And often I'll have this idea, "Oh, I can't do this. I don't get this. I don't understand it. " But when we just begin to quiet that noise a little bit and allow ourselves to learn, to be beginners, to just experience and explore and see how that feels, we might just find that, "Oh, that was enjoyable. When I didn't expect myself to be this master of something I've never done before, maybe I'll do that again. Maybe that was good. Maybe it's good to do things we've never done before because something good might come out of it.

" Yeah. And actually, if we think again about brain training and developing new neural hormonal pathways within our brains and bodies, that's a brilliant opportunity to do it.

This class I went to, it's becoming a regular, but it was like a rave. It was like a rave with martial arts and really loud music and lots of room full of people that already knew what they were doing and me, but it was really fun. And yeah, it's now making it a regular and just going with a bit of that wildness, but just feeling how my body feels. And sometimes when the mind switches off a little bit and just goes on autopilot, that's a wonderful thing.

Yeah, no, it's absolutely beautiful. And I guess we need to bring more of that into our day-to-day lives and practise that because I'm sure a lot of people would feel better.

I think so. Thank you so much for our time. Where can our audience learn more about you and your work, Sanel?

So I guess the best place is probably my LinkedIn profile after to kind of just share various thoughts on there, but also often put on links. I do also have a TED Talk on embodiment and my own personal experience of yoga on YouTube as well.

Great. I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes and the description. Thank you again for your time and wishing you well with everything you do.

Thanks, Mario. It's great talking to you.

Likewise. Well, an absolute delight to speak with Dr. Sunil. Again, it was the same day that we recorded it on, but his words have really stayed with me. So it's been a couple of weeks since the episode and since I did this because we had half term in the middle, but yeah, it's really stayed with me and I would love to know whether it resonated with you as well. Please do let me know in the comments. And I would love to know if you find this helpful. And if you love this episode, you can share any of my reels to your Instagram stories or you can reshare them on TikTok that would be so gratefully received. Please do tag me in because I love knowing when this content resonates with you. If you'd like to be part of the inner work, you can consider joining the Backstage Crew, which you can do either via Captivate, Spotify, or YouTube, where you get exclusive members only episodes, and they are called the inner work now.

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