Omar Sullivan (SO/SP 6w7 693) is an absolutely hilarious and insightful person, sharing how being a Type 6 and growing up with a loyalty to “doing the right thing” collided with an internal drive to poke holes in systems, ideologies, and even his own beliefs. We trace how a Type 6 mind pings between self-doubt and defiant clarity, often using humor as both camouflage and truth-teller—a sort of “jester’s privilege” that lets him say what others won’t. We talk about the contradictions within punk culture, the irony of the sustainability industry, and the emotional truths that surface when a 6 splits inward instead of seeking answers outside. We also touch on the mental gymnastics of manufacturing certainty, ego fixation in relationships, and how being “the man behind the memes” reveals the necessity of division before integration.This is a loaded conversation exploring the energy of 6, the comedy of self-awareness, and how creative life often begins at the fracture point.

LINKS

Learn at The Enneagram School

https://theenneagramschool.com/

Intro Course

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/intro-enneagram-course

Get Typed

https://www.enneagrammer.com/

Sinsomnia Podcast (Dreams)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

House of Enneagram

https://www.youtube.com/@houseofenneagram

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro

02:52 - Improv in college and creating a lasting impact, anti-elitism and 6 leadership, super-ego and doing the 'right thing'

14:39 - Making self laugh, ping-ponging, the humor of 6w7, "the jester's privilege", irony and playing offense to play defense, 3w2 vs 3w4 exploration

28:15 - Pointing out the contradictions and irony of the punk scene, so/sp call-outs within the culture, questioning authenticity

37:34 - Holding contradictions within self, community orientation of 6, finding resonances within 'scenes', frustration turns to the eternal seeker, taking things to the extreme to understand it

45:02 - Creative tension: the duality of 6s, inner split exposing emotional truths in creativity, getting into Omar's novel and the so/sp 6 arch

58:07 - Humor as a survival mechanism, intellectual and detached comparative to 'fighter', relationship to confidence and the 'dark truth'

01:06:01 - Manufacturing a sense of certainty through the mental center, better understanding reality, feeling social stability versus rejection

01:16:08 - Not pinning self to external explanation: bermuda's tuning inward, so/sp not contextualizing actions in the collective sense, being affected causing alienation

01:21:57 - Reinventing self, 'letting loose', being creatively fueled through adventures, the mental imagery of crawling back to life

01:31:19 - Navigating relationships and ego fixations, "the truth won't save you", 6 being the hell side of attachment type; roasting 6s

01:42:34 - 6's splitting showing ugly necessity of division prior to integration, “the man behind the memes”

01:47:57 - Outro

CREDITS

Interview by Josh Lavine

Edited by Kristen Oberly

Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay

Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram6

Omar 0:00

Any group of people that exists ever is going to run into these tensions and these contradictions. But when you blow it up to the most like, ridiculous, it's like, this is getting into, like, the parody, like satire aspect. It's like, you have to take it to the most extreme version. I think this is also part of, like, what's cool about cigs, like, you take it to the extreme to understand it, you know, it's like, you can't you have to do that. You have to dredge it into like, into the light like, that's, that's kind of how I feel about a lot of like, my creative process.

Josh Lavine 0:31

Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavon, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type. Today, my guest is Omar Sullivan, who is a social self press six, wing seven with nine, wing one and three, wing four fixes. And Omar is hilarious. I think it'll be very clear that Omar is a head type in that six, wing seven territory. He's fun, he's fast, he's very funny, he's philosophical, he's noticing things kind of that observational type of humor that six has.

Josh Lavine 1:03

And also we talked through he was deeply involved in the punk scene during college, and we talked about the six coded nature of the punk scene. And we also use that as a jumping off point to explore some of the inherent contradictions, kind of, first of all, in the punk scene itself, but also the way that Omar notices contradictions in whatever kind of context or subculture that he finds himself in, the punk scene being a really good example of it because of the extremity of the inherent contradictions that are there. And also at

Josh Lavine 1:35

25 years old, Omar has completed his first draft of his first novel, and we talk about how six unfairly gets painted sometimes as an anti creative type, but and the reason for that is because sixes tend to be gridded and structured in their thinking, and tend to like to operate within systems, as opposed to outside of them, so people can project onto sixes that they're staying inside the box and not being creative, quote, unquote. However, sixes are very creative. They are often very good lyrically. They do lots of wordplay, things like that. But Omar makes the argument that all of the inner tensions that he lives in and the contradictions that he notices in the world are a phenomenal creative springboard, and he has infused his novel with the working out of some of those tensions, and even in the story itself, is a commentary on how those tensions get worked out on a macroscopic scale. If you'd like to learn more about social self pres, or six weeks seven, or any other aspect of the Enneagram, I invite you to come check us out at the Enneagram school.com you can read a bunch of free content on the Enneagram right there on the website as well as I recommend you check out our intro course, where we lay out all the basic concepts about what makes Enneagram. The Enneagram Okay, without further ado, very excited for you to learn from my new friend Omar. So I'd love to start by asking you about your college experience and how you ended up where you are now and you're recently out of college, like a year and a half out of college, right?

Omar 3:05

Yeah, yeah, of course. See, I went to college for about five years. I got my masters. I went to college in Massachusetts. I'm from Seattle. Originally. I studied, like, environmental science and policy. It's kind of like a focus on, like, international development, sustainable development.

Omar 3:21

I Yeah, in college, you know, like, I played in a couple, like, punk, metal bands.

Omar 3:27

I did a lot of creative stuff. I was on, I formed an improv club. Actually, it was like,

Omar 3:37

there are two improv clubs at my college that you had to, like, audition to get into, um, and I did not get in. And I was so salty about not getting in that I founded my own club that anybody could get into. So then it kind of became like a really big thing, like, we had like, like 20 people. And it was like, kind of always like in and out, like, who would be involved, but it was always like, around, like 20 at a given time. And it was just kind of like a way to, like, a way to, like, teach people improv and create, like, a inclusive improv space for people, um, so that's kind of like, that's, that's like my, like legacy, like lasting impact at my college in that, like, other people have taken up the torch, and now it's going to be like a thing for like, hopefully decades to come.

Josh Lavine 4:18

You know, um, actually, just real quick on that, yeah, because one of the topics we were going to queue up is six leadership, and there's a couple of things pinging on that for, like, anti elitism, yeah,

Omar 4:31

you know, yeah. So I just

Omar 4:34

wanted to and also, improv is already in that kind of, like, six seven era, Oh, yeah. Improv is like, six wing seven central. Like, yeah, it's not even six seven area. It's just all six swing sevens.

Josh Lavine 4:51

Yeah.

Josh Lavine 4:53

Okay, anyway, so just wanted to pepper that commentary on sweet, yeah.

Omar 4:57

Um, but yeah, after college, um.

Omar 4:59

I went through, I guess I went through, like, a pretty, like, nasty breakup in college too. So, like, I'm kind of, like, the last year, like, kind of going into, like, post college, I sort of had to, like, kind of, like, pick up the pieces and, like, reinvent myself. But that, actually, it kind of led to a lot of, like, cool, like transformations and like weird, like personal arcs, I guess. So I don't know I was,

Omar 5:24

I was I was. I worked at a punk venue for a little bit i and then I got really creatively inspired. I was sort of, like, really obsessed with cyberpunk. So I um,

Omar 5:37

um, I started writing a book which was something that I like, I hadn't really like, I had no, like, really prior, like, context for, like, being into that at all. It's just, like, I don't know, how hard could it be, you know? So I started writing a cyberpunk novel, and then I started on, I was working for this, like, I don't know, like this, like, free food nonprofit for a while,

Omar 6:02

and then I started working for another nonprofit that was, like, trying to, like, protect, like, the Amazon rainforest. And that was, like, it was kind of a weird, like, cursed coincidence, because my book, like the main character and the villain, and like, part of the book like the main character the villain were like, from the Amazon rainforest. And part of the book took place there, um, and I had to deal with a lot of themes of, like, um, I don't know, yeah, like, it had to deal with a lot of themes of, like, sustainable development. It was, like, it was kind of making fun of sustainable development, a little bit like, um,

Omar 6:37

but um, also kind of, like,

Omar 6:40

I don't know it was, it was just, um,

Omar 6:43

I saw the job posting, and it sort of felt like I want to follow this thread, you know what I mean? Because it's like it was just so related to what I was writing about, and it became, like, even more related to what I was writing about, kind of like the deeper that I got into it, um, that it just like, started, like, feeding on my like, creative process.

Josh Lavine 7:02

So you majored in environmental studies, yeah, yeah. And what was the, what was your reason for majoring in?

Omar 7:08

My reason, my reason is, I feel like my reason is kind of six ish, honestly, it was like, kind of, I think I was attracted to the like, relative lack of ambiguity, which is like, which is ironic, because now I'm finding there to be a shit ton of ambiguity in the like, Environment and Sustainable, especially the development

Omar 7:27

sphere, but, um, but it was kind of like, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but it was like, All right, this is something that'll like, help the world, like, ostensibly,

Omar 7:39

so at The very least, like, that's something sort of like orient myself around, you know,

Omar 7:46

yeah.

Josh Lavine 7:47

So there's already, I see the six there. That's also arguably social self present. What you're saying, yeah,

Omar 7:54

yeah, for sure, actually, do you want to say? I mean, I you have a pretty good grasp of it. What? How that relates to being sick, yeah, social self. I think it's just like, it's, it's like a super ego thing, like, I want to do like, the right thing, or orient myself towards what I what I can understand as the right thing, and, like, identify and sort of use that as, like, a benchmark for navigation, right? Like, like, what's my, like, life direction, or my sense of direction. It's kind of, it's like, like, I couldn't figure that out on my own. So I'm going to, like, you know,

Omar 8:28

find something as, like, a sort of like anchor to like, like, this is, this, is this is something less ambiguous. Then, then what's going on inside? Because what's going on inside is, like, very ambiguous, right? So it's like, here's something external that's like, ostensibly, like, a little bit more solid that I can cling to. And then, of course, you know, go out in the world and you start doing like,

Omar 8:50

you start doing work in that area, and, like, figuring out more about it, and you realize that it's actually like, not very like, solid, like this thing that you thought was, like, a sure bet is, like, actually, just, like, rife with ambiguity, which is, it's like, you know, and I think that's like, also part of the six thing, it's like, that's a little bit terrifying to realize. But then there's like, there's level to which I'm, like, still engaging with it, just because, like, it just, it just feels like I have to, you know, like, like, it's like, it's like, I, I, I don't know

Omar 9:25

it's like a sense of, like, duty or something, like, I'm not gonna back down now that I know that it's like more of a challenge that I anticipated. You know, yeah, yeah. Okay, there's a lot of things to put, a lot, actually, that you've already laid out on the table, but I want to just pull out one thread first. So, kind of coming from the place of being a Bermuda six, that internal swirl, and you're talking about a lot about internal ambiguity, it not being clear what you want to do, kind of not having access to some kind of inner compass, which is, which is true for all Bermuda types, not just sixes, yeah. But then something about environmental science.

Feels certain or like, first of all, it appeals to

a superego. This is good for the world kind of a thing. There's like a moral goodness about it and there. So that's ping. The sixth thing, plus social self press. It's kind of like,

what large scale for society, macro, sphere. The macro, yeah, that whole social self, press sensibility, and anyway, but then you, you, you entered into environmental science, and then were alarmed to discover that it was not as clear cut as you originally thought it was. And so now are, but have kind of doubled down since then on, I don't know. Like, not not being beaten by the challenge of it not being beaten by the, yeah, trying to navigate it.

Like, like, this is complicated, but like, I'm kind of like, I don't know. It's like, I think with a lot of the like, ambiguity and like, often the like, the contradictory, like, I like, the ironic, like, contradictory nature of a lot of things that I'm oriented towards. It's like, I kind of feel like I was like, like, built to, like, fight this battle to the bitter end, you know. I mean, it's like, like, like that. That's like, part of like, the six like, strength. It's like, I'm the one who can, like, wade through this, like, contradictory bullshit and, like, hopefully, like, you know, glean something from this or set it right. What are, what are some of the contradictions, the contradictions, I mean, okay, like, even, like, um, like, so part of it,

it's like, if you're like, looking like, you know, and going to college or studying something, it's like, you want to do this as, like, a career, right? It's like, your your career, your method of

making money and accruing resources has to be like, is like going to be related to like, environmental sustainability? So I don't, I don't know if I'm going to explain this well, it, it's, it's somewhat inherently at odds with like,

like, the idea of sustainability. Like, I'm gonna like,

like, like, you have all these industries popping up around sustainability that are, like, burning through huge amounts of resources right to like, to justify their own existence. And there's, of course, a need to justify their own existence. Because everybody in these industries needs to, like, you know, eat and have, like, a place to live and, like, you know, whatever, basically, like, pay all their bills and stuff. Um, so I don't know I was, I was at like, the Bloomberg, uh, Green Festival, and it was like, you know, it's like, all these, like, climate like, entrepreneurs and stuff. And they're like, they're like, you know, here, how can we like, how can we invent things and like, create new, like, bullshit to like, be more sustainable. And it's like, I mean, my, my perspective on all of it is kind of like, what we need to be doing is just taking a step back and just consuming less like, like, that's, that's kind of like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge, and it's kind of like everybody's, everybody's invested in like, justifying like, the reason why it's it's like they have to, like, burn through all these resources and like, actively, like, whatever, like, create something new to with, with the hopes that, like, one day it'll, like, go Back around full circle and, like, lead to things being more sustainable, and us living more in harmony with nature, and not being as, like, kind of this, like, extractivist model. So it's just, it's all just deeply ironic.

Okay, that was really good. No, that whole, I mean, that whole, just that whole noticing is very, I don't know, mental center six social software, just noticing that the hypocrisy is inherent, yeah, yeah, totally, you know. And it's also like, it's like, I have to, like, go into the system to be, like, to be someone who can, like, hopefully change it in some way. But it's also like, kind of like, yeah, like, it's like, I'm going into like, the shark tank or something, and that's gonna, like, take a chunk out of me in the process. I don't know, yeah, it's a feeling. You mentioned a sense of duty around, yeah,

yeah. I don't want to get too soap boxy. I mean, I'm a social sofa. Six is probably like, like, some extent to which that's inevitable. But like, I would like to pivot away from like, this is my specific like, like opinions

go more into like personality,

although I do obviously reflects my it's reflecting things about my personality, like even saying this, right?

Yes, let's see. I want to ask you about this, this thing that I've noticed when I talk to you, you're often making yourself laugh.

And it's really, it's kind of great. It makes me laugh too. It kind of like, it feels like, like, fun and loose, like, yeah, what's Yeah? What is that like? What's happening with that? I don't know. I mean, like, I.

I guess, like, I amuse myself. Like,

um, I mean, like, I don't want to get too into, like, crossover with other system. I mean, why there's, I do want to get into that later. Um, we could get into that now, if you, if you want, like, the whole, like, why I'm not a seven thing, just like,

Okay, I have to comment on, yeah, yeah, the ping pong, the like, going for four minutes into your soapbox and being like, I don't want to be on the soapbox anymore. And then, and then, and then ask you a question about something you're like, I don't want to do. Well, maybe we do, but I don't. Maybe I'm so sorry, dude.

Okay, no, that's really good.

Okay, I do. All right, well, all

right, let maybe that's, you make yourself laugh. You have a seven wing. There's that. There's seven, yeah,

I'm pseudo seven, and, like, four different other systems is a thing, which is like, like, I guess, like, one thing that's interesting is when I, when I came into the EU group, and I, like, submitted my first, like, unpaid typing video, I was like, I don't really know what type I am, but I know that I'm not a seven or a two. And then, like, a shit ton of people were typing me as 792, at first, I was like, What the hell? Like, that's wild. And then, um, I think I sort of got people to come around to, like, Guys, I'm not, I'm not the seven, I'm not a set, I swear, um, and like, obviously I'm not, like, too fixed, or even have any, like, two zones, but, um, but a lot of people were still saying seven, like, people were pretty torn. And when I did get typed to six, it was, like, kind of in the height of, like, a lot of the seven retypes for their type, they're retyping a lot of sevens as nines. So it sort of coins, like, weirdly coincided with that, like, not a seven thing. But, yeah, I'm sort of pseudo seven ish, because, yes, you know seven wing, I think. But it's also like, Yeah, another, I'm, like, an ENTP and MBTI, I've been getting into like the, like Rob, like expanded instincts thing. So it's like, I'm I'm unknown, dominant, I guess, which is like the pseudo seven instinct. And then I'm the p, i s, like, purpose, interpersonal, sensing, stacking, which is also pseudo unknown, and thus pseudo seven ish. So it's like that, plus, like, like those, like three compounding factors, plus just actually having a seven wing, um, I think or, and then the triple frustration, right? Like, the overlay, right, the Bermuda. So it's just, I think it's just all like compounding and, yeah, I mean, like the, not the secondary nine fix, I would say I at least would self identify as, like, leaning more phobic than counter phobic. I know that. I don't always, I'm not always seen that way, maybe at first, but like, I think, I think the humor thing

you know ties into, like, phobic six, like, defensive strategy. I could, I could go off on that, if you want me to, but I definitely have, yeah, let's go there. Yeah, you want to actually, well, six humor, let's go there. Let's Yeah, can you because you have a whole thing about six humor, yeah, I wrote some notes for myself. But, like, I can also just sort of fire off the hip, um, and I'll just say to, like, part of, part of what drew me to interview you was, how many like you've produced a lot of memes, yeah, Facebook group that are so good. Thank you. Very funny. Yeah? Another, like, genuinely, very, very funny.

But yeah, you, I mean, and we talked about improv being that six wing, seven kind of space. So, yeah, so what? What are your notes about six and humor?

I mean, I think, I think, like, for me, like, Humor has always been a strength. I this is maybe getting into, like, brewing for fake i There are a lot of sixes who I don't find funny, and there are a lot of sixes who find themselves funny, who are, like, self identified being humorous, who I also do not find funny.

But, like,

but, yeah, I mean, I do, I do think that, like, you know, it's, it's somewhat of a common theme, especially with the seven wing, but even with some six wing fives, I had, like, this was, like, a very, like formative, like, youth moment. I think I was like, you know, maybe 11 or 12, but I had this, like, theater teacher. I was, I was like, a theater kid, um, he was, like, he was an eight, actually, like, like, like, dead ass. Like, he was, like, the, like, theater teacher. And he just, like, had he was, um, he was going into like, eight, like, law of the jungle, speak, like, you know, you know what I mean. And he was talking about, like, how, like, in, like, tribal times, like, you have, like, you have people who survived by virtue of just being, like, stronger and bigger than other people, and then, and then you have people who, like, kind of can't really depend on that, like, like, um, and it's like a lot of like, the reason why they were, like, kept around or, like, able to survive is just.

Off of like, funniness and like wit and like charisma, kind of, like, kind of like the gestures privilege, like, like effect, and I think that's like, kind of real, like, like, in a phobic six way, it's like, that's that that can be sort of how I get ahead, or I'm able to, like, sort of like, punch above my weight in a lot of ways, just because, like, I'm just funny as fuck, and that'll, like, unlock like they, you know, you're, I mean, like, um, so I think so it's just quick, just quick commentary on it's like, there's the social self pros, awareness of like, your like role, you could like the role, the role of the jester, you know, yeah, totally an archetype. You know, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm fulfilling this archetype. I think, um, I think there's so like, there, there are a couple.

Another part of it is, like,

some like, like, people. People are like, like, this is kind of the not a seven. People are like, you know, like, you're so chill. Like, how are you a six or reactive type or whatever? Like, I've gotten that sometimes, or like, I myself have been like, well, I don't really relate to, like, a lot of these six descriptions. But it's like, I think with like, the really, the really, like, phobic, like six, like comedian, six, like six, nine, stem, it's like, it's sort of a way to, like, avoid reactivity, or, like, get above reactivity, like, give yourself a leg up, like, if I'm just this, like, smirking gesture in the corner, like I'm not, like, you can't touch me. You know what I mean? Because, like, I'm roasting myself, I'm roasting you, like I'm roasting everyone. I am giving the appearance of not being bothered, like it's just, it's, it's like, it's like, yeah, I mean, to some extent, like with the roasting, that can be like, playing offense to play defense, you know, but it's also it's just like, like, it's like, the Contra, like, being like, ironic about it. It's like, yeah, there's just, like, this ironic sheen that I can just like, paste over everything. And then it's like, I people don't have to, like, see me as, like, the the triggered, like, you know, six stereotype, you know, someone who's, like, screeching about, like, um, how unjust things are towards them. Or, you know, how to victim. I It's like, like, I don't want to give that off. You know what? I mean, yeah, I want to. I'm I'm hearing a lot of three and four stuff in what you're saying to me, obviously, your core type, but yeah, just or I was thinking about

what would be different about you if you had a three wing two fix instead of three and four, you know, like, but the three, the three four allows you to be a little bit more, like, removed, And also, like,

universally biting, or something like that.

You don't have, you know, you don't have this. You don't have this too, like, interpersonal, super ego. Like, I want to make you feel like, good about yourself, like, or, I mean, like, there's,

like, your, your, your,

yeah, there's not, there's not an extra, like, super ego hurdle you have to jump over, you know,

in that space, like you can, you can just be a little

more Teflon, yeah, maybe, I mean, the other, the other thing with, so it's really interesting with, like, three wing, two fixed sixes, is, like, I, I didn't realize how prevalent it was, like, like, among even, like, a lot of the sixes and, like, the six coded communities that I'm like, hanging out in all that, like, like, in the punk scene, it's like, most of the people in the most, it's like, obviously, like, a ton of sixes. And like, I'm gonna get into that later. But like, um, yeah, they're all, like, they're all fucking three wing two fixers. Like, in this, like, punk activist space, especially, you know, like, activism, it's like, like, I'll, like, bring up the Enneagram and like, this happened a couple times, and it's like, like, online, the perception is that everyone's like, mistyping is like, four or five or eight, like the dark hex ad, right? Like everyone just like, you know, you like, see yourself as this, like, brooding edge, Lord or whatever. And you're like, you're actually like, sunny, like golden retriever, like, whatever. Like, that's like, that's the perception. But it's like, but

brooding edge, Lord, like,

like, um, but it's like, in a lot of these, like,

like, six community, it's like, I like, bring I'm always, I'm always hesitant to bring up the Enneagram in real life, because everyone's like, horribly mistyped, you know? And like, I was, it's like a rite of passage. But like, it's still like, I don't really, like, I don't really know how to react to that, um, but, um, but all these sixes were self, their self. Typing is twos, which was so interesting, because it's like, because I would never do that in a million years. Like, two is like, the type, like, I want to be like, a good person, or whatever, like, again, like, with the whole like environment, like orientation, but I'm not like, seeing myself as someone who's just, like, available and like giving. I'm kind of like, I like getting myself enmeshed in the contract like that. Like, sounds like, like the worst thing ever to me. You know, you know, it's like, I kind of just want to, like, hide in my room and Like.

Play video games or whatever, like, go on the computer, like, like, I don't, but it's like, but they're all, they're all self identifying as twos. And then I was kind of like, damn, they're probably, like, three wing two fixed, you know, I mean, like, they might be too fixed, but, like, it's probably just three wing two fixed. Um, yeah, but it's like, there, there's, there's such a, um, like, identification with the like, wanting to be good thing. Like, it's, it's not even like, like, part of, part of my experience of, like, brewing four, fix six, and it's like, and I think there was a lot more of this. And like, you know, like, emo music and like, a lot of, like, you know, a lot of, like, the rock music that's like, really, like, self hating, like, you have these, like, you have these, like, you know, singers who are like, you know, it's like, very like, six, wing seven, three, wing four, stem. Um, is it like, I don't, I don't automatically see myself as a good guy. Like, like, I want to be the good guy, I guess. But like, it's also like, I'm just, like, very aware that, like, I have, like, dark, like, a dark, darker side, um, and I like, explore that, and like art and like creative expression and stuff. I'm not just like, I'm like this, like, two dimensional, like hero who, like shits, like rainbows or like, or like, whatever. But it's like, I think you like, like, even with the six duality and like, six can be kind of a dark type, you have a lot of sixes who are still not really going there. And that kind of surprised me.

Like, going, going, going towards, like, interrogating themselves as, like, Oh, I'm, like, this fucked up dark thing. It's, it's, even you see it a lot like with the, like, three, two area sixes, and like escapist entertainment, or like esthetics, like music, like the kind of like,

like, a lot of the like, art that they're like, enjoying, and again, like, even in, like, the punk scene, where you wouldn't necessarily, like, think that it's like, like, the I was, I'd be, like, hanging out with people, and they would, like, want to, like, watch something really, like, positive with, like, a happy ending, and like, no, no, like, moral grayness. It's like, this is a story about the heroes beating the bad guys. It's like, very like, because it's like, because that scene is like, an escape from, like, the real world, or whatever. It's like, like, I was always really drawn like, I'm, you know, I'm a writer. Like, I write like, I write stories where they're kind of like, aren't any good guys, where everyone's like, a little bit like, fucked up. They're like, anti heroes and anti villains, and everyone has like, a kind of like, because I see that as, like, more believable, right? Yeah, that's, I kind of love that we're in this territory, because it's, I agree, there's this, there is a

predominant three wing, two, fixed, kind of overlay in in our I would just society in general, I would say. And so a lot of the,

let's see, yeah, like the sort of the Hollywood theme of, like, the the triumphant, redemptive ending, and everyone's good on the inside. That kind of, you know, that kind of thing is, has that two flavor, even if it's not core, but there's two element in the in the typing there, whereas with the four, it's a little more removed, a little more willing to believe the realness of moral grayness and

no, not everyone has a redemptive kind of good hearted this kind of in them, or something, something like that, yeah.

Like, the the art that's more for flavored is willing to kind of not go there and just kind of hang out in the darkness, you could say,

I wanted to mention, or, like, there's, you mentioned the punk scene. You were involved in a punk band during college. You mentioned punk scene being six coded.

Does that? Do you want to go there? Yeah, I'd love to. I think that's, like,

I have a ton of thoughts on that. Like, okay. Like, I mean, I guess, like, let's start at like, that. It's sort of an inherent contradiction, right? Because it's, it's a subculture around, like, non conformity, like, like, there's always, there's always some jackass who's, like, talking about, like, oh, like, like, you think that you're a punk, but you all, like, have Mohawks and, like, dress the same way. Like, like, you know what? I mean, it's like, like,

like, you're like, you destroyed the whole punk scene. Like, how will it recover? And like, like, I think. But there's also, there's an element to like, there's, there's an element of validity those critiques and just how, like, unself aware a lot of punks can be about that like, that does, sort of like, it does, sort of like, lend them weight. And this is again, tying back to maybe, like the three week two fixed. Um, this is also i being such a. I feel like I'm being such a because, like, I have like, the most normy, like six, wing seven, nine, wing one stem. But I'm definitely just punching down at like, the few like types that are like, more normy than me.

That like that, in of itself, is like six, like, I'll take the tiny leg up and just fucking kick everyone else in the face. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. But also three week for fix as well. But, like, but I'm, I'm spitting Facts.

Right, like, yeah, keep going. So, so the

the the easy, cheap shot, is that it's like, yeah, you're all, you're all dressing, you're wearing safety pins, and you're dressing in black, and you think that you're, like, the most subversive, rebellious, little like, you know, whatever, like, you're gonna, like, destroy society with like, the by doing a thing that, like a bunch of other people are doing, and making art, and you're saying, you're saying that's, are you saying that that's partially six coded in the sense that it's like,

conformity around non conformism, or, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, yeah, it's like, so there's a band of outcasts, like, six thing. There's, there's like, there's like, the idea of, like, you're gonna run away from an authority, but sort of, like, into the arms of another authority, like, which is, like, which is, what's, what's tragic about a lot of like, six stories or six arcs or something, um, but I'm not like, I'm not like, the punk thing scene is the worst thing ever. I mean, like, like, I just think it's like, it's just kind of funny, it's, it's there, right? Like, we gotta, like, like, there's like, there's like, all, like, wanting to be accepted, yeah? Like, the the band about, it's like, I didn't belong, and then I was accepted somewhere else, like, I found somewhere where I could belong. Um, there's, there's like, um, I mean, yeah, again, it's like, also, like, the idea that, like, like, like, there's sort of like this, like, one upping each other, like, sort of circle jerk of, like, I'm more punk than you, which is like, also getting into like, sosp and like elitism, like, like, six flavored like, like, calling people a poser, right? It's like, that's like, that's like sosp, like, you're gonna, like, gatekeep accent, but it's also like you're, you're calling someone

a poser and saying, basically, you're saying that they don't belong and that they're like, to

like, to what's, what is it to be a poser? Like you're like, some rich kid or whatever, like you're fake or whatever, yeah like, or you're, yeah, like, or you're not, you're not some hard, like, badass who, like, grew up in like, a gutter, sewer or something, and has like, 80 billion tattoos and, like, you know, whatever, like, fights cops for a living. Like, like, I like, I think, like, everybody's kind of a poser, um, but it's like, but even, like, the act of calling somebody a poser, it's like, you're, you're like, You're too elite

for like to be part of this. Like, you're, you're part of, like, the elite, like, that fakeness. But you're also being elitist because you're like, you're like, gatekeeping, like, like, I know more about so it's like, it's like, elitist in being like, like, like to be the, the most punk rocket person. It's like, you have to be the most, like, down to earth, anti establishment, anti elitist person, ever. So if you're saying, like, you don't meet this bar for being the most down to earth, anti establishment, anti elitist it's like, that's such a contradiction. Like, that's, that's like, so fascinating. You know, like, um, that was extremely well done. Yeah? And also the, there's something too about like being calling someone a poser feels like it has a social six flavor to me, in the sense that it's like, here are the, here are the conventions or norms of like, what it means to be authentically this social category, yeah, if you're, you know, if you're and if you're somehow not authentically being the social category, then you're therefore, like, phony, right? Yeah, but it's like, but not not authentically being that can be more authentic in a lot of it, right? Because if you're trying to conform to some sort of social category, that's like, a little bit inauthentic by default. But it's and, yeah. I mean, the the like elitism, anti elitism thing, it's like, I mean that that's like, going into like, sort of, like college campuses. It's like, um,

the like,

like, like, the like, the like activism side of six, which is, again, like, I don't really disagree with like, any or most of like, the points that they're they're making about like issues with the world and like solutions to solving them, but it's like, um, it's more that there's like, that's, that's very like, Ivory Tower esque, to be like, to be like, all of society should be this way. Like, like, we're like, we're gonna like, like, if you're like, an activist and like, or like a punk, you're like, you're conceptualizing of an alternative society. But like, to have that tab, that frame of view, to be like, oriented towards, that is a very top down mindset, right? Like, that's, that's very like, like, Okay, if you're gonna, like, actually live in alignment with any of that, like, you're probably gonna be occupying leadership positions. Like, first of all, right, which is, like, that's something you're uncomfortable with. If you're against hierarchies and like, which is anti punk, yeah, it's anti bug.

You're you want people to organize together on a large scale and form into groups, which you know, generally, is going to require some degree of rules guiding everyone. Like you just you get.

Into like, how it's like, that, that mindset of viewing the world is not

like, it's, it's, it's really just, yeah, super self contradictory. I'm not like, and I'm not saying it's like,

like, a bad thing

at all. It's just, it's just that it's like, I mean, there are bad sides to it, but it's just, it's more that it's just fascinating. Like, like, I love punk, like, I've been in all these punk bands. It's like, this is something that, like, I derive a lot of meaning from, you know, you know what I mean, and like, and there's so much truth, like, in there, like, what's, what's the meaning you derive? What do you like about the meaning that I mean, um,

I think it just like, with a lot of my own art, it kind of like

I was really inspired by a lot of, like, punk artists, um, and then like, it kind of helped me, like, kind of relate to myself and like, like i i organically sort of found it. It was like, like, this is, this, is this is something that's speaking to me. I'm this is so fucking, like, Bermuda, vague, right now, I'm sure. But it's like, I don't know, like, like,

um,

I it's just like, the like, the disaffection with society, like the idea that, like, we're all just going in the wrong direction and, like, everything's just gonna, like, topple off a cliff. Um, the idea of, like, finding your own like, like, inner resolve, the like, the kind of, like, the idea that, like, you have a counter phobic side. It's like, again, like I talked about being a theater kid, like, like, I was pretty, like, I was very, um,

goody two shoes growing up, I think I still am, in a lot of ways, like, low key. But like, you know, I was like, getting good grades and stuff, but it's like, but it's like, yeah, I mean, I also have this side to me that, like, wants to, like, kind of burn it all down, and it's like getting, like expressing that through art, like going up on stage and just like screaming about things you know, you know, just like, and just writing, like, really, like, misanthropic, like, like, self hating, like, like lyrics, and just being able to, like, tap into that, and like, having a space where you could tap into that, having, like, like, a sense of like fashion where you could, like, express that side of yourself. It's like, I didn't really, like, have an outlet for that for a while. You know what? I mean, um, there's found it through punk, yeah. I mean, I think it's certainly like, like, helped and, yeah. And also, just like,

having, having a community, or a way of engaging with community that I could actually be interested in is also huge. What's fascinating about this, I guess this is another contradiction here. It's like the this, this,

this needs, this, like a deep need to express your individuality in a communally safe space.

Number one, two is this.

You're seeing how, like you want to rip everything down at the same time you're holding these contradictions, like there are benefits to rules and structure at the same time. I fucking hate it all. And

that produces in you a kind of, like, primal, I don't know, like a, like, a violent scream at the same time that you want to express at the same time you don't want

to actually, like, rip everything down maybe is, I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but owner of some things, I get what you're saying, I mean, like, what I'll say is, like, it's not like, like, that's, that's where the like, gotcha critiques of like, punk

like, I think they, like, carry some weight. But there's also an extent to it. It's like, like, if you're, if you're critical of a system, it's, it behooves you to have an alternative system in mind, right? Like, it's not that I'm anti rules. It's that I think that the existing rules are, like, deeply fucked up. It's like, I would, I would like to create, like, a more just and that, I mean, that end of itself is like, yeah, it's like, you know, you're more, like, pro social or whatever, or like, yeah, pro cohesion, and like, just societally oriented. I'm not, I'm not uncomfortable with that. Fact. It's just, it's also like, like, I didn't,

you know, like, a lot of the ways of like, being community oriented. I just, like, did not at all vibe with like. Again, it's like, you know, you're like, going up in your room to, like, hide from everyone, because you just, it's just like, I don't want to engage like. And this is like, this. This was, like, a an area where it's like, okay, like, I've, you know, like people I'm interested, like, interested in talking to, um, like, there's like, shared meaning over or, I mean, not, I'm not interested in talking to all of them. But, like, of them, but like, you know, like, it's, but it's, it's also it became like, like, it's like, now I actually want to, like, be engaged in a community in a way that like actually feels meaningful to me, not like whatever my like showing school spirit or.

Like, whatever the fuck or, like, a lot of, like, like, I love my family, but, like, a lot of like, family orientation, or, like being, like, on, you know, like, like vehicle, like extended family. Just like, yeah, a lot of that, like, on, but, but it's like, you know, if I'm like, like, once I got really involved in the punk scene, I was like, organizing shows and like volunteering a lot, like going to, like mutual aid events, like getting just super involved in things that were, like, in alignment with my values. Like, whether that's like, yeah, you know, like, yeah, you know, giving free food to people in parks, or, like, setting up shows and supporting other bands and being like, yeah, I want to get your band on the bill so that you can, um, break into this and, like, do, kind of do this too. Um, it's just, like, just, just a, just, like a platform for,

you know, advancing values that were, like, more near and dear to my heart, and not something that's like been forced on me, but something that I'm actually choosing, you know, choose, yeah, that's, that's a huge, I'm really glad you brought it there, because it's like, there's the, that's the devotional aspect of six, and The like, support asset in the kind of community orientation of six, the, let's see the the way that it's like, yeah, the advancement of values that I actually believe in. And maybe another way to put it is that six is like, constantly on the lookout for is not on the lookout is maybe two, almost,

like, I don't know. It's not, not quite the way to say it. Sixes are always noticing

the implicit values and expectations and standards in a given environment, and to say, You know what I mean. And so finding, finding a culture, in a community, or a subculture in punk that actually did align with your values, you found yourself kind of all the fibers of your being, being in aligned with it, despite noticing the contradictions within the punk scene, there's still something true about it. Yeah, speaking to me, that feels yeah, that feels like it's resonating with something core and yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just, it's very nuanced. Like, like, like, there are things I like about it. They're things I hate about it. You know what? I mean? Like, mean? Like, there are people that I like, there are people that I hate. There are punk scenes that I think are positive, there are punk scenes that I think are toxic, where everyone's like, horrible. You know? You know what I mean? It's like, um, it just kind of is what it is. Like, I'm not like, at this stage. I'm not like, idolizing it, or like, turning like, this is actually I idolized it, and then I realized that it was the worst thing ever, like, that's I got, like, I had, like, that moment too, because, yeah, there was, like, there was a lot of like,

yeah, like, I sort of, like, kind of had to, like, confront, like, the dark side of of it. Like, I don't know, you know what's coming up for me too, is, is a what's

what's what's feeling clear, what's coming into focus for me is the way that you're a triple attachment type with triple frustration overlay, where it's like you have this, this, like, open, absorptive wannabe. It's the way I would have put it, yeah, just the attachment thing of being open, like the universal human experience, kind of Exactly, yeah. But when you when you ingest something, or when you're in a community and you're absorbing its energy, or whatever, it inevitably, it inevitably runs up against the triple frustration, kind of inner tuning fork, and it's like, oh, here's all the things that are,

yeah, you know, and so it generates a lot of interactivity and a lot of like, inner mental activity, where you notice the things that you like about it. That's it, that you're attaching to things you're frustrated about it, that you want some distance from, trying to find some kind of optimal, harmonious state between attachment and frustration, or something like that, that you're processing for the mental sense. There's also, I think, I think there's also like, a like, an eternal seeker aspect to that, because it's like, you want to, like, you want to experience all of the world, but you're also just constantly being frustrated by it, which sort of, like, leads you to, like, kind of try to seek, like, New Horizons. The last thing I'll say about like, the punk six thing is that I think it's, um, like, it's

just, there's just there's just something really compelling about that, like, like, the fact that it's like,

like being, I mean, six is a very common type, and people can certainly relate to communities and, like, any sort of collective in this in a similar way that, like, a lot of punks relate to, like, a lot of sixes relate to the punk scene, but it's, it's not, it's not only exposing, like,

like, how, um,

contradictory. It's like, it is like the punk scene is. It's kind of exposing, like, the contradiction of a lot of communities. And it's like, it but it's the most extreme, stark example, because it's like, it's like, it's just ridiculous. It's like, it's a community based around non conform. Like, that's, that's hilarious. You know what? I mean, like, that's, that's, that's the the extreme of like, you have, like, you know, whatever, like, the Catholic Church, America, uh,

Dubai, like, any country, any religion, any group, you.

You like, you know, like, what? Like, any group of people that exists ever is going to run into these tensions and these contradictions. But when you blow it up to the most like ridiculous, it's like, this is getting into, like, the parody, like satire aspect. It's like, you have to take it to the most extreme version. I think this is also part of, like, what's cool about cigs, like, you take it to the extreme to understand it, you know, it's like, you can't you have to do that. You have to dredge it into, like, into the light. Like, that's, that's kind of how I feel about a lot of, like, my creative process and, like, with a lot of, like, satire.

Yeah, you, you mentioned a couple times in our like lead up to this conversation, just the creative potential in the split nature of those inter polarities create a lot of well, creative tension. So let's go there. Can you talk? Yeah, just because actually, and let's set it up too. Because part of the thing, maybe a stereotype of six, or an unfair interpretation of six is that, because six is piecing together a map of reality based on, I don't know, other people's maps, vetting, vetting external sources and stuff like that, there can be a

an assumption that people make from that, that sixes are operating within structures and not thinking outside the box. And, yeah, creative, quote, unquote, right? And so there's, like, a

misinterpretation of six where people feel that sixes are not, I don't know, yeah, like, it's anti creativity. Anti creativity. Yeah, like so, and, yeah, go ahead. This is another

I'm invited, yeah. So, I mean, I think the pushing things to, like, the logical extreme, to expose how ridiculous they are, or to expose truths about them in general, is, like, kind of a critical part of the creative process. I think, like,

um,

like, like, the polarity, the duality, aspect of six which, which has overlaps with, like the sexual instinct, not that that necessarily correlates to creativity, either. But it's like there's like, it's like you have this like inner tension, this going back and forth between pulls. It's like that's like an energetic, like force that you could, like, harness to create something new or interesting or like, that's gonna, like, you know, you feel like it's gonna, like, shake things up. Um, I think, I think, um,

it's, like,

a big part of it is, like, emotional to me, like, like, a lot of, a lot of my favorite lyrics, and I, I'm a pretty good lyricist. Like, I'm, I'm, when I was, like, making music, I was writing a lot of lyrics, and I was really focused on that. It's like, all my favorite lyricists are sixes, um, because if you're, if you're attuned to the ways that you're, like, split, or you're ping ponging, or, like, you have, you have this, like, murky ambiguity, like, a lot of that can be really ugly, but it's kind of like by, by seeing that and like writing about and just being, like, honest and like, open about it. It's like that, in of itself, is, I think it's like unlocking a lot of, like, just deep emotional expression. You know what? I mean that, like, it's just, it's just very raw, I think, yeah, um, how, how is that manifesting in your novel,

my novel, so, I mean, this, it's this is kind of tying back to the punk thing, or, like, the taking something to its logical extreme is, like, like, I was going into, like, yeah, environmentalism, punk, international development, like, the fact that it's like, you're having this, like, you're having this Like, view of, like, we have to fix all of society, but you don't want to, like organize and to group or like lead people or whatever, force things on people or whatever. Um, and I was like, the A big part of my book is that it deals with like, an anarchist punk themed mega corporation, and it's like, like, it's called like, Praxis industries. And they're like, they're trying to, like, take over the world, to like in state, some utopia. And of course, it goes, like, horribly wrong. And it's like, it's also like they're anti hierarchy. So it's like, if they make an AI that's just gonna, like, diffuse everything and rule over everything, it's like, no human can be

better than each other, but like, the process of like, creating that AI is like, in itself, informed by human bias. So they're sort of like, they're haunted by this, like,

like, this corrupt ability. And it's like, I mean, there are, there are critiques of like, the ways that, like, you know, making fun of

like, there are critiques of the ways that like making fun of capitalism are like, are satirizing, or, like, I don't know. It's like,

you have, you have movies that are like, billion dollar like, you know, generating like, movies that are all about, like, blowing up the system, or whatever, like, and it's.

Like, it's like, made by, like, Hollywood and, you know, they're like, you know, by, like, billionaire executives and, like, whatever it's like, it wasn't going into that as much, because I think that's like, somewhat played out or explored. It was more of like, they've created this mega corporation as, like, a earnest attempt to consolidate enough power to be able to go toe to toe with the people with the systems that they'd have to fight against to, like, win basically. So it's like, it's sort of like the process of, like, power corrupting, or just like, even, even when you have, like, completely good intentions, or going into it with pure intentions, it's like, like, how if you create a system a certain way is, like, is it just going to end up like, entrenching power in certain hands and sort of being self defeating? You know what I mean? Like, that was, that was kind of what I wanted to explore with it. And it's also, it's also like

it was, it was somewhat like the the the punk themed mega corporation was somewhat like the lesser of two evils. Are a little bit justified within the context of the book. Even though they've, like, they like, commit all these like, atrocities, you know, they like use child soldiers in, like, other countries and stuff. And like, the main character is, like, he was a former child soldier, so he's kind of, like, he's kind of like, coming back to, like, smack them in the face, like a little bit. And it's like, even like the fact that they created child soldiers ends up

kind of smacking them in the face in the end, because the main character and the antagonist were both former child soldiers, and they end up on the antagonist ends up serving the agenda of like a rival mega corporation. Um, so it's like, you use child soldiers to

get this, like, greater good results that you could ideally eventually get some sort of, like, utopian end state. But now one of those, like the the harm that you've caused and the evil that you've caused, one of those child soldiers, is going to grow up to be the guy who like nukes. You like, drops a nuclear bomb on you know, you know what I mean. It just, it just comes back around. It's like, like, by taking those greater good shortcuts, you're getting, um, you're getting hurt in the long run in ways that aren't necessarily like, immediately obvious, that might not be obvious for decades, but, but in the context of the story, it's like, it's about pushing the needle. Because it's like, it sort of goes into, like Nuclear Risk and like

mutually assured destruction on like the it's like, it's an ocean mega city built on top of the, like the Pacific Ocean trash patch called New Bermuda,

but it's ruled over by his AI superintendent called the armistice program, who will nuke everyone if they declare war on each other. So there's been 100 years of world peace between these mega corporations that, like in the past, had a World War, and they were all like, you know, slinging nuclear weapons at each other, um, but it's like,

it's like, um, the stalemate needs to be broken, because there are contradictions inherent in the system that are bubbling up and, like, going to tear it apart. Like, there's been 100 years of world peace, right there? Yeah, there's been 100 years of world peace, but they've act there. Actually hasn't, because they've just been fighting wars around the world in, like, with third party, uh, private military contractors. And that's like, that's what the child soldier characters were fighting. And it's like there's no actual piece. It's just like you can ignore it in the city, right? So there's

like the the

conflict kicks off because one of the two of the mega corporations have a merger. They consolidate power, and they want to, they want to fly to space and nuke everyone else, basically, and then re colonize the earth when the dust is settled. So the current, the current system, is not like, accounting for that like, there's like, a loophole, there's a little like, there's a little loophole they can exploit, and things are gonna go wrong. So at the end, at the end of the book, the air to the punk themed mega corporation, like, uploads his brain into the AI computer to to be able to fire off a nuke and stop the spaceship, as it's like, flying into space, and also to be able to stop the nukes that are coming down at the world from hitting the world, like they just, like, divert them and, you know, fire them into space or whatever. So, um, so it's like, that's necessary to save the world. But since he uploaded his brain into an AI, now this punk theme, mega corporation is in charge of everything, and they've they've been they've become totally corrupted by power. So it's like his own actions are like heroic and he's doing what needs to be done in the moment to save, you know, hundreds of millions of lives, billions of lives. But in the long term future, it's like, now there's, now there's a, there's still an unjust like, power structure on the throne, and that's going to have complications later down the line that that need to be dealt with. So he's like, he's like, he kind of like, sends a message to the characters. He's like, one day, like, you'll need to kill me too, you know. Like, like, you'll be like, I'll do what I can.

But like you, you will need to take me out, like, the the AI version, and the guy that, the guy that uploaded his brain to the AI, is bleeding out. And he's like, he's watching, like, the nuclear like, sunset. And he's like, he's happy that he got to die a human instead of a machine, because he knows that the machine version of himself is going to get corrupted by power eventually. And he's like, Yeah, I'm bleeding out. Like, I've been shot, like, in the final conflict, but like, at least I can die, like, with my humanity, like my my purity, you know, I mean, like, that's, that's kind of how it ends.

Okay,

okay, there's, there's a lot to say.

Just make a couple of points. First of all, first of all, that was amazing. I don't know how long you're talking that was just an

amazing synopsis.

The it's clear, like, one difference between six and nine is that, like, nine is oriented to that, like harmonious stable, like resting place. But, but you being course six, being like a realness type or reactive type, plus having triple frustration, it's like there's just this profound restlessness, or almost, it's, it's almost like you're, you're exposing this underlying truth that there is no final resting state of ultimate peace, because today's solutions create tomorrow's problems. Yeah, and, and that's, and it's just always this churn of, even with the best intentions, there's always inherent contradictions in any kind of system, and they will always bubble up, no matter how long a period of peace may or may not be. It feel there's there's tensions, yes, yeah, absolutely. I'll have to get result Yeah. And happening at scale with like, there's so much social self press, just stuff going on in your novel, in the sense that each character almost represents a certain kind of social template, or is like,

is like a

each, each organization in the book, each,

it's like these, how do I say it like condensations of values embedded in characters that and their actions have social meaning in terms of the political context that you're creating. And so, yeah, a lot of just social software is like, they're like an archetype or an exemplar, yeah? That's right. That's right. Yeah, totally.

And you, you have, you finished a draft, right? Yeah,

20 pages. I didn't, I wasn't sure I would do it, but I did. Yeah, that is amazing. That's amazing, yeah, well, I can't wait to read it. Hell. Yeah.

So, okay, so, but, but to the the kernel of that whole topic was just how

there's creative potential in the split nature of six, the inner polarities that six is aware of. And I guess actually, that was a really good example, just example, example of it. I mean, just how you know, I mean, you literally took, you created an entire novel out of, out of

the impossibility of resolving inner splits, right? Yeah, yeah, social press scale, you know, yeah. And it's like, it's also deeply personal, you know, like, like, like, it's, how could this be, like, relatable or but it like, it kind of is, you know, it's like, this is, like, informed by, like, my interaction with the punk scene, like my career trajectory,

I think going into like, the realness or the reactivity, it's like, like, like, within myself, it's interesting, because it's like, you have sixes who are like hardcore, like fighter archetypes, like a six Kyle, right? Is gonna be like, doing this a lot more in real time. It's like, with me again. It's like, this is tying into the humor thing, the phobic thing. It's like, it's more of, like, a realness, like a trickster thing. It's like, like, I'm not gonna, like, it's not direct. It's like, I'm gonna write a novel that's gonna have all this stuff. I'm pretty, yeah, again, it's like, I'm pretty. Like, chill. Like, I'm not, like, starting conflicts with people. Like, you know, like, like, it's like, um, yeah. It's like, I do have like, a secondary, like, nine wing one fix, like, you know, like, which is, like a double edged sword, because I think I'm more generally likable. But I also do sometimes wish that I could, like, be bringing a lot more of this, like fighter energy in real time. But it's also like, it's just kind of how I operate. It's like, I'm not, I'm not gonna win in a one on one fight. And that ties back to the like, law of the jungle, like, humor is survival mechanism. It's like, I win by like, sort of going around, you know what I mean? Like, that's just, that's just kind of how I like, have to do things like, and it's very like, it's very satirical. And like, yeah, it's also, like, it's also kind of like, intellectual and detached, like, I'm gonna write a book

and that's gonna, like, that's gonna express some as if, as opposed to, like, get into a fight with someone. You know what I mean, and you're playing on the night, yeah, nine wing one, yeah, and Bermuda, yeah, Bermuda too, probably, probably social Don plays into it, right, right? And not having any eight, but it's also, but also nine wing one fix is like, nine wing one is, like, the creative, withdrawn, like, kind of.

Bookish in some ways, right? Yeah, it's like, not like, like, if you're not, if you're not like, if nine, nine wing one fix is also maybe not going to be able to, like, write a novel or have or, I mean, you know, maybe they could, but it's like, or just be as, like, kind of withdrawn creative and also sort of, like, sharp about it, like, here's my like, crystallized vision. So I think that's really serving my six agenda in a lot of ways. You know, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Makes sense.

You mentioned, I loved your phrase, and what you wrote to me, Sisyphean confidence,

yeah. Can I I'll read. I'll read. You said, I would say,

unfortunately, attaining a lot of general confidence, especially in social confidence, especially in social context, has been borderline Sisyphean, like I will undergo supposed character growth and act in ways that seem like I've attained some higher level of confidence and feel like I've permanently got over an issue, then have the foundation fall out from under Me and feel back to square one.

Yeah. Damn, I was, I was in a mood when I wrote that. No, but I it's very real, and I feel that constantly, like, I'm not to downplay that. That is like, definitely how I feel about things. Um,

it's, yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it like, actually, it's, it's, there's a parallel to your novel there, right? It's that whole, like, whatever gets resolved, you know, will inevitably a new platform, yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is like, like, just to speak very honestly, like, an area where, like, the Enneagram, has almost been a little harmful to to get into. It's like, you know, I got into a pretty young age, like, fortunately, not when I was, like, a teenager or anything. But, you know, like, early 20s on, I think there's just, there's a level of, like psychological, like excavation, that it's like, you see some things and they're kind of hard to unsee.

I reached a really high level of confidence a couple of years ago, and it, it sort of felt like, all right, this is it like, I'm like, you know, become an adult who's, like, a fully formed person who has a ton of confidence, and then, you know, stuff happened that, like, really yanked the rug out from under me. And it's, I just, I just felt like, like, horror, like, just horrible and just insecure all the time. And like, like, was that stuff around your relationship? Or, yeah, I mean, it was related to my relationship. It was also just the fallout of a lot of a lot of different friendships. Um, around covid There, I think covid kind of brought out the worst. And, like, everyone, and there was a lot of drama, um, I mean, it was just like, um, but also, I mean, again, like, I don't, I don't know if, like, discovering the Enneagram around that time, like, really helped, to be honest, because it was like, you know, whatever. I'm a six nine stem, so I'm like, you know, a fucking like pussy or whatever, you know, just like, just seeing the way, like I was always somewhat aware of, like being like, having people pleaser tendencies or or whatever. But it's just like, I think, just having that like, more like nakedly on display or seen as like, something that I would be constantly battling with, as opposed to something that I could, like, have a like, character arc where I got over and then just never have to worry about that anymore. You know what? I mean, um, and I'm not like, and, yeah, I mean, it was just, it was just a combination of factors. And it's also, it's like, I mean, I want,

like, again, it's like, six being a realness types, like, I want to know the truth, right? Like, no matter how ugly it is and how horrible it like, it's part of my like, you know, my cynical like soul, my skeptic, my truth orientation. It's like, give it to me, you know, you know what I mean. It's like, I would rather know than not know. And I think, I think that, like, attaining, like, a level of self awareness that maybe I didn't have earlier. Um, is like, you know, it's kind of helping me build back a stronger foundation, but I've also been a lot more, like,

just constantly, a little bit anxious about building the foundation in the construction process, because there's that, there's that awareness that it can all come crumbling down. And I'm not, like, the crumbling down thing. Like, I'm not putting that on the Enneagram or whatever, um, it's just, or even the awareness that it can come crumbling down that's more just, like, stuff that I've like, dealt with, um, but it's like,

I, I know, um, and this, this is probably a self pres social six, but it's like, you had, like, I think it was Charles Dickens, um, he a lot of his books have to do with, like, poverty and like, um,

characters climbing out of poverty or just making ends meet. And he grew up in extreme poverty and became really wealthy. And something about him that I always found interesting is that he had this, um, he had this, like, deep seated fear or mindset, that it could all come crashing down at any minute. Like, like, like, he never really felt completely secure in like, materially. Like, this is like the self pres social version. But I, I feel like I'm doing that a little bit like, socially, almost like, like, you know, whether that be like, a level of confidence, or it's like, it's there, there's an awareness that, like, I'd say.

Something, or do something, and it would all just come crashing down at any moment. And that, like, that kind of terrifies me in that, like, I think it like,

I think part of, part of, like, the six extreme, like, sort of self interrogation can be really, like, it can lead to out of conscientiousness, which is, like, certainly something I appreciate in other sixes. And, like, you know, I think it's, like, a good trait that I had, like, just the, just the like, the care, right? Like, like, the, yeah, the conscientiousness. But it's also, like, if you're just, like, interrogating and you're afraid that that's gonna fall out, like, that's that's diminishing your ability to show up in real time as someone who's like, just embodying, like, a lot of like, confidence, and, you know, it's like that that's just been difficult to navigate. I'm also 25 so, you know, um, I would, I, ideally, I would like this to, like, develop and get better. But it's like, um, you know, I mean, it's just, it's been kind of cyclical so far, and that that makes me uncomfortable, honestly, you know, yeah,

yeah. And you're pointing to

kind of the the passion of the six, which sometimes, I don't know, people call it fear, anxiety. I like the word angst, but it's like that word too. It's yeah. It's because the essential quality of six is truth, which is not like truth in a in a sort of objective sense, but it's more like a feeling of being fundamentally supported,

of being able to trust myself. It's, I guess it's a certain kind of

a causeless confidence, or just a self faith. Maybe, yeah, I always thought of it as like literal truth, and I think it certainly can be, but I that that's like, Yeah, I think that's really real too well. So yeah, this is what happens with the six. I mean, in the traditional way that the Enneagram is taught. It's like, you when sixes fall out of touch with essential truth, by the way. And actually, let me say a little more about essential truth. It's like, it's a quality of consciousness that you can be present to when you when you are present. You know, it's like a sense of a feeling like I have a foundation underneath me, and when we lose touch with that, it's like, that's what, that's what the that's what stirs up our angst. And then six is a mental type tries to start it engages the mental center to discover or manufacture the truth that it is lost. And so that's where you get into all the mentalizations and the notice and the notice and contradictions. And I don't think there's nothing I can stand on. There's no, there's no way to orient around here with a sense of certainty. And so sixes are trying to manufacture a sense of certainty

through the mental center. Yeah. But of course, like every type, it's a it's a doomed project. And so that's why you get that cyclical nature,

the Yeah. And so anyway, go ahead. I was just gonna say, like, the manufacturing a sense of certainty through the mental center. It's like, I mean, that can show up in a ton of different ways and that, I mean, that does tie into the objective truth thing. Because you're, you're trying to figure out what's real. I mean, I think they're, they're sixes, or maybe more like, more like, you know, emotion leading or whatever, who are, like, who are trying to find some, like, inner truth or something more subjective. But, I mean, I do think, like, the way it shows up for me a lot of the time is, like, literally, like, like, how can I better understand reality and then orient myself around that? You know what? I mean,

um, yeah, like, what do you say? Like, or go ahead, like, there, there's a,

I mean, this, this, this could be another tangent, if you want. But there, I mean there, there's a degree to which, like, like, objective truth is very uncertain. Like, like, we have, like, we have color wavelengths that we can't see. You know what? I mean, like, like, they're like, like, our sense and pret. You can say like, you can cite data and like, empirical, like metrics, but like, I don't know it's, I mean, there, there could be like, there's like, the floating spaghetti monster, you know, right behind me that like, I can't see or interact with, or like, like, that's possible, you know, you know what I mean, I think, I think like,

I think you can still, like, exercise our best judgment and be like, All right, well, if this, this thing, isn't, like, tangible, it's probably not true. And, you know, just go with, like, the best map that we've got, but that, that map is always going to be a little bit, um, like, there's, there's, like, an element of, like, uncertainty just inherent. And that's like, the mental center. And, like, I think six, well, no, that was a, that was a really good explanation of the of the core, underlying fear of the mental Center, which, by the way, all types five, six and seven in the mental sensor are wrestling with, is the, the inherent uncertainty of existence and reality is always, is, is essentially unmappable in its totality. You know, there's, there's always things that are outside of our perception, or we could be wrong in our perceptions, and that's what causes the fear. But being a social six, I think what I'm curious about it because I think you were, you were you framed this whole thing about like, losing confidence in a social sense, like, like, confident in a social setting. You said, you know, I would say, unfortunately, because I asked you this.

But this is one of my questions in the interview. As I asked if the is there a life lesson you had to learn over and over again? And you said, Yes, um, attaining a lot of general confidence, especially in social context, has built. So what does it mean to have confidence in a social context?

It's good question. Like, like, I think there's, there's a little bit like, like, showing up in a way. It's like, you're not wavering. You're not gonna, like, backpedal, or like, or, I mean, there, there's definitely like, like, you know, outsource your authority to someone else. Be like you want to answer this question. Like, like, someone like, I mean, sometimes that that can be good to to do, but, you know, you know what I mean, like, sort of like, like, an Abnegation of your own,

like, agency and like, your own and your own, like, this is what I'm about, like, your own location. I think the Bermuda thing too. It's like, you know, like, I can go into like, hardcore chameleon mode, like, I'm not right now, because this is, like, you know, like, talking about, like, a thing, like, like, I think I'm really vibing with you and like, it's also like, this is, this is, like, one of my like, in like, main interests that really, like, lights me up, but like, there's, there are contexts where I'll just go, like, full, like, Bermuda chameleon, like, very, like, not really showing a lot of, like, my personality or anything, yeah, um, so, yeah, I guess, I guess that. I mean, maybe that's that might be too, like, negative, or this is what confidence isn't. I think, I think for me, it's just like feeling myself like, own it, you know, like, again, it's like a lot of the time, like, when I'm being really funny, or, like, getting, like, everyone to laugh, or like, this is my cool, weird, creative project, and people are, like, getting really into it some, sometimes in like, leadership context, too. Or it's like, this is like, this is my vision, you know, like, with the improv club, it's like, this is like,

this is like, I, like, felt like a fire inside about, like, this is something I'm, like, passionate about. Like, I want to, like, um,

like, create this thing. And it's like, I created it. And people were like, you know, getting really into it. And it's like, I'm here, like, teaching people and like showing them about it. So I just, like, just showing up like that. I also think, like, I mean, part of it's like, just being willing to, like, have conflicts with people, like, like, stand by things, like, stand by your own values. Like, I've certainly, like, had difficulty with that before. So

with, uh, yeah, I mentioned secondary nine, especially there, there's a kind of, yeah, there can be a reflexive wilting or something, yeah, honestly, like, I, you know, I don't really like, love that about myself. So

what's helped you with that? I mean, can you tell me say more about the improv experience and what you like? What other than, other than being rejected by the other two groups. Like, what prompted you to do it, and what, why did you sustain that project, and what was it like for you to

do that?

Yeah, I mean, I think

part of it was like a sort of like

it, like, it kind of hurt a lot to be rejected. I was going into a new and this is like, so, like, social, like, I was going into new social context for the first time. Um, you had these really selective improv clubs on campus. Um, my campus was weird. Like, I've never seen this before, but like, the improv clubs were almost like celebrity status, a little bit like they were like, they were like,

people got really into it, and like, I was, like, crushing it in the interview, or, like, on the interviews, in the

audition auditions. And like, I got called back to both them, and they were both like that, they kind of like, I just, like, barely got edged out, basically. And I think, I think part of it was that they just, like, didn't really vibe with me on like, a personal level, like, like, they were, like, they were trying to see if I could, like, um,

like, I had like, a second interview with one and it was, like, very strange, because they were like, well, we know you're like, really good at improv, and we like, You're hilarious. And it's like, but can we vibe on like, a one to one level? And I think I, like, failed the vibe check a little bit, like, and I was kind of, I was kind of pissed off. And like, I was also like, I would, I was going to these,

like, I can get self righteous about it, but like, ultimately, like, you know, I'm acutely aware that if I had gotten in, I'd just be in. And, you know, you know what I mean. So it's like, I don't really think I have any, like, self righteousness leg to stand on. But, um, I don't, like, I also kind of don't think that matters in terms of, like, what ended up happening, like, I, you know, I was, I was going to, all these additions are, like, 50 people, like, 95%

of people weren't getting in. 90 Yeah, 90 to 95% weren't getting in. It's like, yeah, all these people, like, wanted to also learn improv, but also just wanted a space to do improv. And I, like, got together with a bunch of friends, and, like, I was like, let's, let's, like, create a club where, like, anybody can do it. And then we, like, ended up, like, teaching people. And we were like, We're just very, like, anti elitist, like, anybody can do this. And it was, we were, we ended.

Have kind of ruffling some feather, like, like, the other clubs were kind of like, they were like, a little bit, like, pissed and, like, indignant, which, like, I kind of enjoyed, because it was like, it was like, Yeah, I just fucking went behind your back and did this. Like, Fuck you guys. You know what I mean, like, like, it was like,

because they weren't, like, they weren't offering something that everyone could be a part of, and now we were, you know, so I just had, like, a sense of mission with it. Even it was just, it was also, like, it was very, just sort of guided by my own, like,

like my own feeling. Like, it just, it was just, like, really, like subjective and like my own emotions, you know, you know, which is good, I think, for like, a head type and a Bermuda like, it's like, I'm always like, I feel like, I'm always like, self invalidating a little bit like, like, with like, I don't have the right to be upset about this. And it's like, like, again, it's like, I was, like, acutely aware that, like, I was really only doing this because I didn't get in and like, um, like that. Like, nobody else took over, yeah? Well, yeah, something else did. Because now it's like, I want to, like, advocate for all these other people and like, like, like, yeah. It's like, like, you know, like, let's get like, the show space. And like, What do you mean? Like, we don't have equal access to, like, you know, venues to perform. And, you know, it's like, like, now I'm gonna, like, be like, showing up for them and, like, whatever. So I think, I think, I think something else did take over. But it's also like, you know, I was aware that it was just, it was like, it was like a boundary being crossed, like an sort of, like an anger, like, just, just very like self validating, like it was just like, not, I mean, I feel this way, and I'm gonna act based on the fact that I feel this way. Who cares if it's like, you know, like it can be grounded on some sort of, like, universally like, valid thing, or some, like, actual high horse. It's like, Nah, I just, like, I just feel this way. And this is what I want, you know what I mean, like, I think there's something huge kind of, yeah, there's something like, good about that and that that also ties into the like, the showing up thing and like, the like, embodying confidence. It's like, this is, this is what's like, lighting a fire in me. Ultimately, I just want to highlight that thing you said, because that was really, that's a huge thing for six and especially Bermuda right where, like, who, who cares if my actions can't be justified in some overarching moral frame, or some, you know, some, some, something I'm pinning myself to externally. That is, like, see, I'm acting in accordance with this thing out here. You know, it's just, like, not even referencing anything external. It's just coming from inside. Like, this is how I feel, this is how I want to act, is what I want to totally and therefore, I'm doing it. Yeah, that's huge. You know, that that's, that is the experience of, of of being a source of yourself as a Bermuda type, yeah, and it can be, it can be really, it can be really hard thing for being the types to find and, you know, have access to and then actually act on. So yeah, and like, stay in tune with, too. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I wonder if sosp is also even, like, adding another layer, I mean, of self. Like, sosp can add, like, an individualistic bent, or like, a going against but I think it also can add even more. It can amplify the whole like this has to be justified through some like, external like, like a self invalidating because it's like, not like, in its own personal character arc as much, you know, yeah, because it's, yeah, that's actually quite good, yeah, because it has, you have to contextualize your actions in the collective or, like, what's good? There's a super ego quality to social self, pros, yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a way that, there's a way that you can kind of lose yourself in the social context, or, I don't know you, yeah, like, a detached Ness, yeah. I mean, this is, this is also, like, I don't know, like, this is, this is kind of interesting um,

like, tying into, like, sosp plus Bermuda specifically. And like, I'm curious if you really like, um,

is it like, I mean, obviously like, SX, blind triple attachment is sort of like a Normie type, in a sense. But I don't think like, I don't think sosp Bermuda is necessarily Normie or they're like, there are ways that it's like, it's doing a thing that, like most people aren't like, like,

I don't again, I don't know if you relate, but like, I was always sort of, I was always really implicitly aware of the attachment game, um, like, the code switching and the like, kind of chameleon that that thing, you know what I mean, and it's like, and there was always sort of, I mean, I was, I was sort of shocked, like, going into Enneagram and, like, learning how common attachment was, um, but I think that, like, what I was shocked by was, like, a reaction to, like, SOS, like social DOM Bermuda specifically, like, like, growing up, I always assumed that I was doing it a lot more than other people and like, and we can talk like, attachment to disconnect or whatever. But I also think there's this truth to the fact that, like, I mean, I don't know how many, what percentage of the population is Bermuda, like, like, all three of your

fixes are attached. You know, maybe, like, 30, 40% maybe 50 at most. Like, like, I.

Probably guess, 30 to 40% and then it's like, then within that, it's like, probably, like, 70% spso, who, like, have more of, like, an innate, like, just boundary to like, where, and they're also a little bit, maybe more willing to kind of, like, like, let it rip socially, a little bit like, you know, like, like, just in terms of, just, like, um, I don't care, say something this can offend, you know, or like, whatever. So just like, it's like, it's actually like, the so DOM triple attachment is like, a little bit rarer. It's certainly not like the majority of the population or anything. So it's like, like, and I've seen other like, social DOM Bermudas do the, like, hardcore chameleon thing in real time. It's kind of, it's like, interesting to see that, but it's like, you're not like, you're not getting that from most people, like, at all, even though most people are doing some degree of, like, attachment and social you know what? I mean, it was just, I guess it was just, it was interesting to, like,

think, think about, like, there's almost a level of like, vulnerability that comes with that, like, like, all that like, it's like, it's like, it's like, you can just shoot an arrow right through me, you know, like, like, like, all the attachment and this and the social openness, it's like, there I'm get, I'm really affected by, by a lot, really hard thing, yeah, yeah, social DOM for me to type myself, yeah. And it's like, yeah. And again, like, attachment, disconnect, like, is like, that's real. Like, the the human condition is inherently alienating, but I think there is, there is something like uniquely alienating to just feeling that much more affected than the vast majority of people in that way. You know what I mean?

Does that make sense? It does make sense, although I'm, yeah, yeah. I mean, Bermuda is inherently in porous, but, yeah, but, but I agree, there's like that extra open aperture

effect, yeah, the open app that's great, yeah, mental like, that fits perfectly with, like, the way it feels, kind of, I have a question for you, and this is, maybe this is a bit of a topic shift, but like comparing your experience as a core six to mine as a core three, like attachment in the head center versus attachment in the heart sensor, and I was thinking about, are you willing to share about your story? Like, what after, after you broke up with your ex or your ex? However that happened and you kind of did went into investigation truth seeking mode.

Yeah, I mean, well, hey, here's the thing. Like, I

mean, maybe I'm always in investigation truth seeking mode, but I think in a way, it was like I was kind of leaning away from a lot of that, like, like, it was like, like, when I was at college, it was like I was, I was just obsessing over, like politics and like the true, like capital T truths, and just being really, like, like hardcore, like super ego, just like, kind of leaning into all those parts of myself, and then, like I sort of like the effect that

that had on to me, and I think, like realizing things about, like, my sexual instinct and stuff, it was more of like a letting loose, like, honestly, like, I was kind of like, like, I

I was at sort of a, like a rock bottom, because, like, you know, I was like, I got basically, like, dumped in, like, a pretty, like, brutal

fashion. And I felt like, I felt like kind of a loser, because I was like, you know, I hadn't really been taking good care of myself. I was like, very depressed. I just, I was just like, self neglecting a lot. And I was like, I'm like, angry at this person, but also, like, kind of like angry at myself for kind of, kind of just going into that like, sort of lowest common denominator version of myself, um, so like, I don't know is I just like, I sort of just be I like, became a lot more adventurous. Like, I wasn't, I wasn't actually like, mental center, like,

processing everything as much. It felt like I was kind of just going on, like, insane adventures. Like, I like, I met some like, I just, like, I don't know, it was, like, my whole like, I kind of had to, like,

like, burn it all down and, like, kind of reinvent myself a little bit like, like, I was hanging out with different people. I was, like, after that, after the first year, I was like, um, you know, I moved back home. I just, like, moved across the country, basically, like, I was like, I can't be in this area anymore, because it's like, reminding me of this person. So I was like, I have to, just, like, clean slate, just like, take a flamethrower to everything. You know what I mean, like, it was, I mean,

like, I mean, that year was insane because, like, I had like, a, like, a pseudo friendship, um, like, we never, like, I, we never really had a relationship, or even, like, you know, like, really, like,

like, you know, did anything, like sexual or anything, but like, I had like this, like,

really transformative, like, kind of friendship

thing with like this, like.

Bash it insane, like Russian troll. And we were like, we were going,

like, we were like, going on all these, like, absurd, like, like, really exploring abandoned places. And we were like, we formed an academia, secret society within our our college. And we were like, we were, we kind of went on a war past too, like, we were like, I don't know, like, we were, like, tearing shit up and, like, going into, like, abandoned, like ruins, and like, sneaking into places, like, um, it was,

I don't know, like, it was just like, and then, like, you know, like, I like, formed a new band with like these people, and that was kind of a crazy adventure, like, we got, we made an EP, and it was, like, actually, some like, kind of famous band, like, recorded our EP, which is, like, absurd, like, it was weird because, like, the singer, like, was, like, had a YouTube channel and, like, interviewed the person. So we got like, that opportunity, and then we went on a road trip and were, like, sleeping in their, um, in their basement of like, their shed outside their house, for days trying to, like, record this EP, like sleeping on the floor, like it was, just like, it was a, kind of a crazy, like, adventurous year, like I and I think that, like that, in of itself, sort of, like really creatively fueled me and like, teed up the whole novel thing. Because, like, I was, I was getting increasingly jaded with a lot of the just, like viewing everything through like a extreme superego lens. It's like again, with a lot of, like, the tearing stuff up and like sneaking into play. Into places thing, it was just kind of like, I was kind of realizing that, like, there's, there's more to life than being a really, really good person. Sometimes, like, like, like, not that I was doing anything like, horrible or even really that bad at all, but it was like, you know, like I was just, I was just kind of, like, being kind of mischievous and like, um, just just doing things more because I was, like, really just interested in them, and because it was, like, making me feel alive. Then, like, yeah, again. Then Then some sort of, like objective, like, this is contributing to, like, the utilitarian, like, like, goodness of everything, and that that was, like, there was a, you know, like, there, like, one of the characters in my book was really like embodying that, like, chaotic, free spirits, like, that's also getting into like, like, the sexual instinct, like sexual blind spot, like, this sort of, this sort of idea that, like, you know, like,

like, I, you know, like, I have this, like, six, like, super ego thing, but it's like, I also, like, kind of, I have, like, an attraction to, like, yeah, this, like, social blind or, like, Yeah, like, like, just like, you're gonna, like, like, anti super ego, like, just, just do things, because it's like, this just primordial, like, creative, destructive, like, force, and just getting in touch with that. And that was like that, like, I think really, like, like, it's like, it's like, cool, because it's like, you know, my book has all these, like, super ego subjects. Obviously, it's like, very social self prize. But it's like to to have, like, the primordial, like, creative energy that would like, go into that, and also, like, I think, to, like, start breaking down a lot of my, like, really rigid assumptions that were keeping me in that rut of, like, the college like this is like, I have to become a good person and contribute to society. Like, the breakdown of all of that was like this was, like, the seed, like, that break it. Like, it's like, kind of like the sexual instinct being like, the like, destruction and creation at the same time. You know what? I mean, it's like, I had to, like, I had to go through like, a crisis to, like, sort of like, yeah, like, find myself again. He's gonna make that point. Yeah, the crisis, the crisis thing. I mean, I guess the way I'm, I'm hearing what you're saying is, is that,

yeah, getting dumped sucked, and it created the conditions,

not necessarily in a direct way, but like, what it led to was a certain experimentation outside the bounds of your Normal personality structure. Yeah, yeah, 100%

which was bounded previously by a like you could only, you could only explore so far as the leash of your superego gave you, you know, room to go, you know. And so you had to, you know, you got to be, you had to be like, near to where you were tied down, like some kind of moral north north pole, or something like that, or a way to justify your actions within some kind of overarching idea of what's good, what a good person is, yeah, and then you kind of let that you kind of, you stretch that out a lot during this phase, and that seemed to be really healthy exploration for you. Yeah? I mean, I think it was like, again, it's again, it's like, it's the kind of thing that, like, you're gonna get, like, burned by sometimes it's like, it's destructive and tolerative at the same time. Yeah, it was like, like, I mean, there's a point where I got, like, I was like, hospitalized because I got like, blackout drunk and like, that was like, that was kind of, like, the the rock bottom of that, like, like, the worst that happened. But, you know, it's like, like, I'm like, crawling out of this, like, hospital bed, like, pulling the, like, you know, like the like IV drip thing out of my arm, but it's like, I'm coming back. You

know what? I mean, it's like, like, this is like, I'm like, I'm gonna get over this, like, this phase, like this, that, that end of itself, like, you know, I had this, like, $700 like, hospital bill, like that. Like, hurt my.

That sucked. That definitely sucked. But it's also like, I kind of feel like that, that $700 was worth it, in a way, and that, like, misery and that pain, like, not that I would do that again, because I don't want to, like, literally, like, die or something. But like, it's like, because it gave you, because what it gave you, what I mean, it just freedom, a sense of sense of breaking out of the prison of your normal type structure. Well, it's just like, I mean, you're just, it's just a sense of, like, just the mental like,

imagery of like, you're, you're like, crawling back, like, from the dead, or you're crawling back to life. Or like, that was part like, that was part of my book. Like, like, like, the main character dies. He gets shot in the head by his best friend, and then he survives the headshot, and he gets, he gets nursed back to health in by this Amazon rainforest community. And he's like, um, you know, yeah, he's pulling tubes out of himself and stumbling to his feet. It's like, if I hadn't been pulling tubes out of myself and stumbling to my feet, I wouldn't have the inspo to write that scene. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, like, that's, that's, that's creating something for me, even though it's even as it's like, breaking me down, you know, like, like, I think there's value to that, yeah, yeah. And there's another contradiction right there, yeah,

I Okay. I'm gonna preface this by saying I want to, we can cut this out if you aren't comfortable talking about but I wanted to, wanted to bring up this idea of

so I want to read something you wrote about the splitting up with your ex, and then just kind of get into this territory for a second. So you said, when I figured out the story of how my ex left me for someone else, it was a total six truth search, like I did a ton of internet stalking and confronted her about it, showed her the receipts. I think it was illustrative of the idea that knowing the full truth would somehow meet my needs or help things when it really didn't change the facts of the situation or anything at all. So it was a moment of realization that meeting my ego fixation wouldn't do anything. That's that whole thing, just that, just that package of a night of an insight, is really interesting to me. Yeah, I mean,

it's like, the the truth won't save you. You know what I mean, like, not necessarily like, you could have all the right answers, like, like, and still lose, you know what I mean? I mean, that's, that's like, that's a little that, in itself, is terrifying, because this idea that I'm gonna, like, reach some sort of, like, cathartic like, like, there's a, I'm really into, like, Warhammer, like, like, there's a, yeah, there's a, there's a character, Lorgar. He's, like, a pretty obvious, like, social self, Pres six, and, like, the his story starts with, like, the iconic line, all I ever wanted was the truth. And he's following this character, the emperor of mankind, who's, like, um, proclaiming himself to be a god, basically. And he he realized he finds the truth. Like, he realizes that Emperor is not a god, and the real gods of the setting are the four evil chaos gods. So he becomes, like, totally evil. And like this, like chaos demon, like Lord and like pledges himself. And he's the one who burns down the entire Imperium man. He's, he's totally evil, right? But, like, but he realizes the truth of this setting is that, like, everything's evil. Like, the gods are evil. Like, like, like, it's like, he's like, all I ever wanted was a truth in that lead. Like, he finds it, like he wins. He fulfills the six ego fixation. But you're like, like,

in doing that, like,

you know, he becomes a villain and, like, damns his soul forever, like, it's like, that's not really a happy end. Like, you can, you can win and still lose like, like, and I guess for me, with like,

taking it to a more personal and not being like, obnoxiously, like, Contra,

zoomed out, like, they like, like, I was, you know, um,

it's like,

it's like, yeah, like, you want to, like, you know, flip her off, like I won, like, I got you it's like, yeah, I like, went into detective mode and like, like, you know, found a bunch of and basically realized that, yeah, I was being, like, cheated on, or at the very least had been, like, she left me for someone, and, you know, started dating the day after, when that wasn't what I've been told and, like, it was like, um, yeah. Like, and find that out, and, like, throw the receipts in someone's face and be like, look like, I know, but like, that doesn't change anything about my situation. Like, we're not together, that, like, the the relationship isn't going to be repaired. Um, I just have like, like, I can know that that's, it's satisfying to know on some level, that, like, that's not going to save me, you know what I mean, and that that, like, that leads into the like, the sort of, not nihilistic, but just like, kind of, like, the burner, the not being as, as tethered by my ego fixation, just like, cutting loose a little more, because it's like, Fuck the truth. Like, like, you know, like, I could, I could know what the truth is. But is that, like, there's so much more to like, experiencing life than that. And like, yeah, okay, okay. And just feeling like, just feeling a sense of purpose, so that that whole experience is partly what allowed you to cut your leash and just start being a little, yeah? I mean, I.

I wonder. I think it definitely, like thematically tied in, at the very least. What's coming up for me about that whole story is, is, well, other than, I think that was a you did a really good job articulating that whole thing. But there's also a piece of it that's like, body reality is more prime, is, like more primordial than, uh, mental reality. You could say it's like a hierarchy of reality. Like, you could figure out every you could you could see in high resolution in the mental center, but if you're in pain in the body, you know that doesn't get resolved. It doesn't matter you're bleeding out.

Yeah, you can diagnose your your symptoms, but you're still sick. Yes, yeah.

And and the heart, too, though, right? Like, yes, that's my real like, that's my heart. Like, that's the really, that's like, love, like, it's like, it doesn't matter what's real, what I can know, what I can navigate. Like, my heart, like I just feeling this, like, yeah, sense of like, loss and pain and like knowing the truth is not going to take that away or really do anything about that. You know what I mean,

is this related to why you said,

like, right before we got on this call, that six is like, the hell side of attachment. What did you mean when you said that it's not? No, I don't think it's related. I think what I mean was, like, just kind of like, like,

the the other people in Hell is other people. Like, capacity of like, you have a lot of the most, like, unlikable motherfuckers or sixes, like, like, just, like, whatever, like, the screeching reactive, like, like, I like to think that I'm not that, but like, I don't, like, I have some notes. It's like, it's kind of like, it's going into, like, Yeah, I mean, it's attachment. It's widespread, it's common. It's trying to be on the same page, but it's like, it's Reactive Attachment, like, it's kind of like the gross, unlikable, like loser attachment type,

right? Versus like, nine, three, the like, charismatic winners of like, the attachment, wait, okay, reactive attachment. I just that, that phrase. I mean, that's the punk scene. That's the whole thing, right? Yeah, yeah, totally, you know that, yeah. But it's like, um, I

don't know, like, like, I mean, I grew up pretty well adjusted, you know, like, I had good grades, and I still feel like I'm, like, miserable and full of angst, like I'm probably like, I'm like, a healthier six. And this is like, still what it's like,

like,

like, even, like, um, like the like, the six being like, the hated type. Or it's like, like, you have like, like, a lot of the discourse in like, the Enneagram, it's like, like, in Normie, like Enneagram, where they're like, everyone's missed, nobody wants to self type as a six, right? Like, they're all like, they're all like, mistyping is, you know, like, four or five, eights or whatever. And it's like, you have this, like, um, this perception that sixes are all like sheep who aren't free thinkers or, like, or whatever. And then, um, even in like, the like, enlightened, like, you know, we actually understand the Enneagram. Like spaces. It's like, um, you know, like, people are still, like, frustrated by sixes and like, like, it's, you know, you have like,

I don't know, like,

like, I

like the idea that, like, a lot of the like, unlikable traits of other types are actually just like sixes with those fixes. Like, this isn't this, isn't this isn't like a jab at EU it's more like people in the community, like in the Facebook group, will always like, say, it's like, oh, they're not a they're not a one. No one would do that. It's a six with a one fix. Who are the real like Karen hall monitors. Or it's like, no eight. It's like a six with an eight fix is like, the jumpy, like, drywall punching, like, just, like toxic asshole, like, just like, the absolute worst, and then, and it's like, and even, like, even on the phobic side, it's like,

like, you know, you just know like this ties into like, the like, underdog to villain arc pipeline. It's like, you know that, like, once a modicum of confidence or stat like, they're gonna become just as bad. Like, you have all these tropes of these, like, phobic sixes who, like, you know, like, they like, get some level of like, status or something, and then like, become like, just shitty people. Like, you know, I'm talking about like, like, that's like, so that's a thing. It's not just the like, overtly reactive counterfeit. It's just like, it's just like, the worst type, like, like, there's like, they're projecting, they're reactive. They're like, hypocritical,

like, like, like, it's not, um, there's just something like, profoundly, like, ugly about it's like, even, even, like, the underdog thing. It's like, a lot of these, like, you kind of just want to, like, kick them, while they're a little bit like, like, like, you have these, like, like, really, just like, woe is me, whiny sixes, or like, I'm the underdog. And it's like, and, but they're like, they're like, still being, like, really reactive. And it's like, you know that, like, if they ever got out of that, like, um, again, like, they would maybe just full circle revolution, it up and just, like, be it at, like, just, just, I mean, this on, like, an inner person.

Personal level, like, like, you just, like, there's, there's certain people where you, like, definitely get those vibes from, you know what I mean, but, but anyways, all that's to say it's, it's like, it's kind of like, there's this level of, like, the like, all the sins of mankind, or like, all the evil like this, just this, like, fomenting, like black pit of, like, just, just, just undesirable traits, like,

oh man, but just Yeah,

but Well, well, I think what redeems it a little bit is like, you know, you have this, like, sometimes there's a need for that. Like, like, like, the three nine, like, Barbie land, you know, we're all just gonna sing fucking Kumbaya. Like, the, like, live, laugh, love. Like, you know, we're all, we're all friends here. And like, you know, nobody's gonna say anything controversial. And like, like, like, it's like, I mean, like, yeah, it's certainly more likable, universally, a lot more pleasant to be around. Just, just, just generally, a lot better. Like, it's like, a baseline, but, like, but sometimes, you know, you need these, like, sort of ugly divisions, like, you need to just take a knife to everything, and it's like, I think that's like, that's where six becomes like, like, essential. It's like and essential to reforming the attachment too. It's like, like, like, some, sometimes, like, you have to divide, to keep, to keep it whole. Because if it's if it's whole, and there are elements that are like, festering everything and there, I mean, there's so many ways that six can go wrong. But it's like, you know, it's just like, that, that division, because six is, like, the the act of splitting. It's like, like, nobody wants to say, Yeah, I'm on the side of division. Like, it's like, you know, I'm on the side of unification. It's not, it doesn't have to be us versus them. It can be all one big, yeah, you know, like hole, where we sing Kumbaya, and it's like, I mean, sometimes that just, frankly, just isn't true. Like, they're just like, um, like, I mean, if you look at, like the Civil War, right? Like, you know, like the country split in half, right? Like, chattel slavery existed in the US, and then we slaughtered a bunch of confederates, and chattel slavery didn't exist in the US anymore. Like, that's an ugly process. And nobody, like, nobody wants to, like, like, say that, but it's like, it's like, that's, that's like, an objective good and that, like, reformed the whole, you know what I mean, like, like, like, that's and it's like, so clear how that like, line of thinking can go, like, horrible and be the worst thing ever, and be kind of like, all the sins of mankind. Like, that's like, that's where you get like, yeah, like, genocide, and like, you know, like, all these, like, forms of bigotry and just like, all these forms of evil. But it's like, um, but it's like, sometimes having like, a, like, an us versus them mindset is like, it's just essential for like, you know, like, something like, like, justice, or like, yeah, like reforming the whole it's like, yeah, like, the Civil War was just, it was just such a good versus evil. It's like, you have, like, you know, people are owning slaves and committing one of, like, the worst atrocities in human history. There, there's really, there's, there's no amount of, like, happy unity that you can have. Like, it just you it just needs to be like this, like, ugly, divisive thing, you know what I mean, and the thinner split of, well, whether it's internally in a single person or at a country level, right, wired, yeah, for a certain kind of working out of those tensions and then eventually coming together. There's a Ken Wilber is one of my favorite philosophers, and he talks about, like

something has to be differentiated before it can be integrated. Yes, yeah, that's what you're that's what you're pointing to. It's, it's

Yeah, and it's, like, a lot of people pin that is, like, the worst thing ever I have. I had like, a,

it's the non harmonious attachment you could say, right, yeah. And I mean, again, I like, I have a nine and three fix. And I'm like, I think I'm pretty phobic, so I'm still very much in that harmonious attachment sphere. But I think in terms of like, at least, like, my creative orientation and a lot of like, low key, like, my life direction, it's like, I am still, like, very much tapping into that, like, six, like, space and mindset. I mean, like, like, like, in this it's just, it's something that, like, you know, like, like, people don't fully realize like, like, because it's, it's easy to bash, because it is, like, kind of the worst thing ever, and a lot of weight, right? Just like, just a lot of, like, unpleasant, unlikable behavior is just coming from that, like, you know, it's, it's funny. I think it's funny. It's just interesting. Strikes me too. Just, just like,

at the level of the body attachment is kind of like syncing up our our agendas, our life force or energies, and kind of abiding in a harmonious somatic state together in the heart center. It's

what I'm leading up to is that there's kind of like

in the mental.

Sensor, there can be a lot more fragmentation than there is in the body sensor, of the heart sensor, because,

you know, the body sensor is all about sensation, how I'm being held by my environment. There's a kind of like primordial, like the template is the primordial unity of the womb, right

in the heart center. It's about gaze, which is like, it's either focused on one thing or on something else. In the mental center, there can be just an infinity of ideas. The mental center is like of ideas and perspectives and distinctions. And to attach in the mental center is sort of like pain in the Golden Gate Bridge. It's never, it's a never ending project, because

you can't or it's like

the puzzle, I don't know the puzzles is too big. You can't put all the pieces together at once. And for all, there's never, like a moment where we can all be in like, complete, 100% agreement in the mental center, I guess. Does that make sense? Kind of what I'm saying, yeah. It's inherently more fragmented than these, like, bodily heart and like, hardest part of the body to, like, kind of, it's just yeah, it's like, it's like, like to have a working generating, right, yeah, like, yeah. And also it's like to have a working body, like, everything needs to just, like, work together harmoniously with, like, no complicated like that there's, there's no need, like, working body, working heart, for like, Frank versus like, for your head. It's like, you have to, like, navigate all these nuances. Yes, it needs to feel like fucked up and dispersed. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That was kind of working that idea out in real time. But that you got it, that's the, that's what I was saying. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking we probably come to a close here, which is a lot of really good stuff in this conversation.

I just, I have to say, you know, you're like, such a fountain of ideas and creativity, and just like your mind is so generative,

and you're really fun to talk to. I mean, it's just been, this has been a really interesting conversation. And your grasp of this stuff, and your like, ability to self reflect and to contextualize your insights in the con, in the in, in the framework of the engram and stuff, it's just really amazing. It's, it's remarkable that you're just 25 thanks. I really, really appreciate that. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah, it's been great talking to you. It's like, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's like, it's like, weird, because it's like, you know, I've seen, like, your videos and like, kind of interacting with, sometimes these groups, but it's like, nice having a conversation today. Like, it's really, I think you're really great at, like, doing this, and like, your great interviewer really, also really interesting to talk to. And, yeah, I'm just, I'm just really vibing right now. So, yeah, thanks. Thanks. I appreciate it, man. And I've also been a fan of your memes.

Actually get to know the man behind them, the man behind

Okay, well, thank you very much for doing this, and thanks for being so open. Yeah, of course,

yeah. I think this. I feel like good about this. I'm really excited to see how it turns out.

Cool. Sounds good. Okay, awesome. Thank you for tuning in to my conversation with Omar. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and leave a comment if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways to support me and the show and the work that we do at the Enneagram school. If you'd like to learn more about what we do at the Enneagram school, then come check us out on our website. The Enneagram school.com I

invite you to get on our email list, which is where we will announce new episodes of this podcast, as well as when we start doing retreats and announce new courses and things like that. And you can also learn about the Enneagram. Right there on our website, there's a lot of free written content as well as you can browse interviews just like this by typing instinctual stacking, and you can check out our intro course, which I also plugged in the beginning of this episode. If you think that you would be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, I would love to hear from you. You can contact me right through the website, at the contact form, let me know what type you are, and preference strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing team@enneagrammer.com

who are, in my view, the world's most accurate Enneagram typing team. You can check out their typing services over there at their website, and you can also go to their members area and learn their typing skills by watching them type celebrities in real time.

Finally, I want to mention that this show is part of a larger consortium of Enneagram collaborators. So I want to plug our sister podcast sincesomnia, where the Dream Girls explore the relationship between dreams and the unconscious and the Enneagram. And I also want to plug our new podcast, House of Enneagram, where all of our collaborators unite under one roof to explore different niches of the Enneagram, as well as its applications to understand pop culture, art, current events and things of that nature. So all of the links to all of this stuff will be in the show notes, so go check that out, and that's it for me. Thank you very much, and I will see you next time

you.

You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai