Can God be completely sovereign and still hold people responsible for their choices? If no one naturally seeks God, why are people accountable for rejecting Him?

In Part 3 of our series, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave tackle one of theology's most difficult questions without getting lost in philosophical speculation. Instead, they stay anchored in Scripture.

Together they explore:

• Why this is a biblical tension—not a contradiction.
• What Romans 10 teaches about faith, hearing, and the gospel.
• The relationship between God's drawing and human responsibility.
• Whether Christians really have "free will."
• Why God's sovereignty should never make us passive in evangelism.
• How abiding in Christ keeps us from both manipulation and apathy.

This conversation doesn't pretend to remove every mystery. Instead, it provides a biblical framework that strengthens confidence in God, fuels evangelism, and encourages believers to faithfully participate in God's mission.

How can both be true?

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We've been doing a series leading up to this, and this is the third part in the series.

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And the series is basically asking the question: how can both be true?

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Somebody seeks after God and yet is responsible for their response to that seeking, to

that drawing.

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And we've been talking about human nature, we've been talking about God's drawing.

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And then in this third one, we are gonna try to biblically give an answer.

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To reconciling these two things, two things.

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Nobody seeks after God naturally, but people are held responsible by God.

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And if you've been wondering about this question, we are not necessarily going to solve

the mystery for you, but we are going to go to as much of the Bible as possible so you

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have a biblical answer, because an unbiblical answer to this question will kill

evangelism.

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And so this is so important to what we do.

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Well, here we go.

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Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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I'm George Binocca, your host, and with me today is Jeff Musgrave.

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He's the author and founder of The Exchange.

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And today we are going to ask him the world's hardest questions.

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How are you doing, Jeff?

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I'm doing very good.

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Good to see you, George.

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Good to see you too.

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Well, how do we reconcile this?

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Nobody seeks after God.

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Talked about human desire.

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God draws them.

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Uh, we talked about that last time.

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And but people are held responsible.

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God judges people.

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Yeah.

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And I think if you remember correctly, the very last thing we talked about is so can

people resist God's drawing?

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And um we try to answer that with just scripture words, where the Bible tells us not to

resist, not to grieve, not to quench the Holy Spirit.

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And I I think today uh what we really want to know is

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this this work of my responsibility, God's responsibility, kind of me as a as a Christian,

what am I supposed to be doing?

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And what can I expect from unbelievers based on what God is doing and based on their own

choices?

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That's kind of where we are.

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the the question is, and you know you said it's the hardest question ever

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You know, how do we reconcile the fact no one's except for God while God holds them

responsible?

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And and I think the answer is that there's probably as many opinions about and and I'll

just use these words because they're probably a little more in terms with what people are

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used to hearing, election, predestination, as there are people listening to the podcast.

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We're really not going to answer those questions.

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To anybody's liking.

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I mean, I I don't think anybody's gonna say, Jeff nailed it.

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number one, I always feel like I'm working way above my pay grade here.

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Uh this is not what I feel like I'm good at.

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But I I do think that there are some things that we can focus on that we know we're good

at.

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And the here's something I think all of us, no matter what side.

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Of the equation you you find yourself on, we can all agree on this: that the only humans

that are going to be in heaven are going to be people that have placed their faith in the

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finished work of Jesus Christ.

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So that that's just a fact of scripture.

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It's a fact of everything God tells us about Himself and about ourselves in the Word of

God.

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So the argument really isn't.

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is faith necessary?

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So, you know, does a person have to respond?

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The answer is everybody that's in heaven has responded.

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The the the question mark is how does a person come to faith?

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I don't don't you think that's really the the genuine question that we practically need to

answer?

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Absolutely.

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I mean it's it it's the thing we're really thinking about when it comes to this area of

theology.

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Yeah.

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And so sometimes I feel like we gotta come off of the theological platforms and come down

to where do we live, what are we actually trying to accomplish.

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And I I I think that uh we've already talked about the the way people come to faith is by

God wooing them or crowding them.

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No one seeks after God.

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God woos them and crowds them.

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We've we've been talking about how that

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that process.

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But what does a person, I mean, what brings a person actually to faith?

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there's there's debates about when faith happens versus when God gives life and all of the

different pieces to that question.

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Again, I feel like I'm safe when I stick with the words of God.

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And so um I'm turning to Romans chapter 10.

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Romans chapter 10, uh writing a quite frankly, a difficult passage of scripture, chapter

chapters nine through eleven are are are difficult, but chapter 10 kind of comes down and

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and helps us land the the plane, so to speak.

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and here they're just some basic concepts that if we get these basic concepts in our head,

I think we're gonna be safe.

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Number one,

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Everyone must personally call out to God.

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No one's going to be into heaven in heaven unless they call out to God.

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Romans 10, 13, for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

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And so that that's a requirement, and that is kind of what qualifies us when we call out

to God and and his lordship.

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But secondly, that it tells us right in context.

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They are not going to call out if they don't believe.

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How then can they call on him of who they not believed?

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And of course, the logic goes on in this passage.

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How can they believe if they don't know?

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And verse uh 14, the rhetor uh the latter part of that verse says, And how will they

believe in him in whom they've not heard?

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And how will they hear without someone preaching?

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And how will they preach unless someone is sent?

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No wonder God loves.

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believers who share their faith.

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Verse 15 says, as it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those that preach the good

news.

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Now we're kind of down on ground that I like to stand on.

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And we know that God loves.

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In fact, God calls beautiful the feet of those, though the the going of those who are

preaching the good news.

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And then the passage says some do know

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And don't believe.

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And that's that's kind of where we're getting into our difficulty.

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What what happens when someone does know and then they they refuse to believe?

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And uh this is a question that Isaiah was asking God way back when when he said, 'Who will

go for us?' and Isaiah said, 'Here am I, send me.' And then he says, so what am I going to

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do when I tell them and they don't believe?

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and he uses this phrase: Lord, who has believed.

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What he's heard from us.

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I mean, there it's he feels he sounds a little bit like sometimes we feel like we're given

the good news and nobody's listening.

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And the answer in the word of God is hearing the word of God is what produces faith.

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it it says in verse 17, so faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of

Christ.

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So I I I guess my

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Bottom line answer here is that the most powerful tool that we have to create faith in the

heart of an unbeliever whom God is drawing, God is wooing, is to utilize the word of God,

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to show them not just the concepts of the word of God, but to literally use God's word to

call people to himself.

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So I mean a critic would ask, is this a contradiction?

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because if it is a contradiction, there goes the credibility of the Bible.

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Or would you say it's a tension scripture intentionally presents and why would God do

that?

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Yeah.

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Well, and and I think that you're actually kind of giving nod to your own thinking here by

the latter part of that question.

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And uh I I I can confidently say that this is not a contradiction in scripture.

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In fact, the Bible itself is either uh true or it's it lies because the Bible says that

there are no contradictions, that everything flows together.

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However, there are disagreements about what the scripture says.

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So in other words, there are people who look at this passage or that passage and they're

going to say, well, it's saying this.

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And frankly, I believe that there are people on both sides of the argument that take their

arguments beyond the word of scripture.

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And they're actually letting their logic, and I there's nothing wrong with human logic,

but human logic doesn't have the same weight as the words of God.

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And so it when we let our human logic take us and project us beyond the specific words

that God has given us, then then we're gonna get ourselves in into trouble.

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So

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my own personal explanation is to recognize, but not necessarily explain or even uh always

totally uh figure out the the scripture and the fact that sometimes God does purposely put

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tension.

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And we're gonna get to a little bit more about what that tension is, but basically uh we

have a human responsibility.

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But we have a sovereignty from God who is actually choosing and calling.

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And and that tension we're we're we're we're seeing almost and the word that you use to

begin with, the the

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Intel the word that we have to use to be able to be int intellectually honest with

ourselves is contradiction.

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Doesn't that seem to be contradictory?

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And so that that's kind of I guess my answer is God doesn't always explain this the the

tension that that sits there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I I totally agree with you.

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plus there are some things that I think we assume we would understand if God just

explained them to us, and I think that's a bad assumption.

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Who who knows if our minds could understand?

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Maybe that's why there are some things he hasn't explained.

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But I mean in the

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right.

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In fact, I like to say it this way.

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I don't mind having a God that's bigger than I am.

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I'm glad he understands things that I don't understand because we would all be in trouble

if we were resting on my abilities.

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Amen.

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So in the first part of this series, we really delved into human sinful desires.

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And I, you know, you see clearly in scripture that our volition, our will, is bent towards

sin.

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So how do we think about free will in light of these human desires?

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Because, you know, there's there there are people who take a jump here and say, I mean,

how could you decide?

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Yeah.

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Well, first a word about terminology.

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usually people give away their point of view with with terminology.

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And when we use the word free will versus the word human responsibility, we're we're kind

of starting to give away our our own viewpoint just by by the words of that people use.

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Uh free will

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usually sides on emphasizing the human side of the equation.

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Human responsibility typically emphasizes God's side of the equation.

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just sometimes people want to know, Jeff, what what are you?

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And um I I would say I have to land on God's side of the responsibility.

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Because he's the one who's sovereign.

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And I, you know, that I can't really land anywhere else besides that.

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So I I've come to uh utilize the word human responsibility a a lot more than I would

utilize the word free will.

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Um I think the important question uh is you know where does sin come from, the the origin

of sin?

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I I

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Again, human logic.

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If God is sovereign and everything is created by God, then does that make God the creator

of evil?

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And I mean that that that gets into some really dark thought processes.

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So uh again, I'm I'm trying to stay away from the logic of humans that goes beyond the

words of scripture.

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So

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Uh to me, John eight, where Jesus is talking to uh the

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Jewish leaders who are uh claiming that he's kind of crazy and you know, you're telling us

that we need to free uh and free from the slaver of sin.

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We've never been in bondage, which is kind of a funny thing to say because these these are

the people that were in bondage in uh Israel or in Egypt and uh in the uh exile.

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But but beyond all of that, Jesus answers them very, very clearly.

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And he said, You are of your father, the devil.

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And your will is to do your father's desires.

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So we were talking about our our natural desires lead us to conclusions.

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And is that really a free choice?

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Jesus said, That's here's the problem.

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You are children of the devil.

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That's he's your spiritual father, and and his

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desire is for you to do his will.

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And then it goes on and he describes Satan.

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He says he was a murderer from the beginning and he does not stand in the truth because

there's no truth in him.

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When he lies, he speaks out of his own character.

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For he is a liar and the father of lies.

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So i this is helping us to see that the genesis of evil is is Satan himself.

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And scripture tells us that Satan was cre create, he's a created being, he is a created

being, and that he was created perfect.

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And in fact, he was in heaven with God, and he was uh the kind of the conduit of

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For all the praise and all the glory that came to the Father.

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And it seems as though one day he decided, I I want that for myself.

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In Isaiah 14, we see kind of the conclusion of that.

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How are you fallen from heaven, old daystar, son of dawn?

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King James uses the word Lucifer here.

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It's a translation, a Vulgate translation of that phrase, old daystar.

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Um, you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven.

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above the stars of God, I will set my throne on high, and then it continues later, I will

make myself like the Most High.

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So that pride and rebellion is is the genesis of all the evil.

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And then we know that that came down to earth and entered the human race through the

temptation in the garden in Genesis three, where uh we see the account in verses one to

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uh six, where Satan deceives and then tempts Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve join him in

his rebellion against God, and sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and the

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curse, and all of this the ugliness of the world that we see as it is.

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So that that I think is really critical for us to recognize.

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God is not the purveyor of

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the Bible says, let no man say when he's tempted, he's tempted of g by God.

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Uh that that is coming to us uh by Satan.

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a good friend of mine once said, God is good, the devil is bad.

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Uh, you know, we we just kind of gotta keep those things clear in our brain.

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Yeah.

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Amen.

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so I guess another question, and I thought about this, you know, for a while, is I mean,

getting into what is true freedom then.

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true freedom is it the ability to choose anything or the ability to choose according to

our nature and desires?

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that seems to be kind of the two sides a little bit.

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Yeah.

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I I I when you when I read this question in my study, I thought I I gotta do a little

research here.

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And you know, philosophers have debated whether freedom uh means simply the ability to

choose anything, freedom from constraints, so to speak, or is it the ability to choose in

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alignments with one's nature and desires, freedom for self-realization?

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And that that's a philosoph philosophical discussion that's been going on for millenniums.

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the fact is that every human born to Adam and Eve is tainted by sinful human nature.

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So that we n no human can live without sin.

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And and that's where the real problem comes in.

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So if we're seeing freedom.

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from all constraints, uh then we get to do anything we want to.

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if we see freedom uh of uh you know I want to be true to my natural desires, we still end

up on the sin side of the equation.

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So either way, with that definition of freedom, we're in trouble.

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We're born sinners, we make choices,

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But no one has the ability to consistently choose to live sinless.

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Jesus in that John 8 passage said, you know, we're slaves to sin, we're under the tyranny

of the slave master of sin.

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And so uh the question really is almost a um a misnomer, because even if we're choosing

along with our own dis natural inclinations, we're still choosing on the side of sin.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I agree.

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one of the things that happens at salvation, we've talked about this plenty on the

podcast, is there's a there's a total new desire that that new set of desires God puts in

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your life.

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It's actually in the exchange.

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We are made into a new creature.

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Old things have passed away, behold all things become new.

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So if God changes our desires, now we have a new set of desires, are we still making

genuine choices at the at that point?

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Yeah.

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And and I think just to back up so that our our listeners get this, I mean, even though

we've said it many times, when when we get rescued from our sin by faith in Jesus

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Exchange, literally trading places, he gives us a new nature, he sets us free from the

tyranny of sin, uh the control of sin, dominion of sin.

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And now

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When we choose sin, we're actually choosing contrary to our own nature.

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the Bible tells us we we can choose sin, but the real freedom that's been given to us here

is that we can choose right.

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We can w this is the first ability we've ever had because before I was a a believer, I

only had the ability to choose.

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by my nature sin.

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and but now because I have a new nature, uh when I sin, it actually goes contrary to what

satisfies the new nature, this this redeemed nature that I've been given.

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if it's okay with you, George, I'd like to read a little excerpt.

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This is from Living the Exchange.

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for our listeners, Living the Exchange

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Is uh part of what we call a circle of ministry.

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We see people saved through the exchange Bible study.

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It is by far the the tool that people use most in of our materials.

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But living the exchange is what we utilize to help new believers grow in the Lord and

understand this process of uh living free from tyranny.

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So here's an illustration uh from the book.

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Imagine yourself living under a tyrannical master.

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As a slave, enduring forced labor, bad treatment, horrible living conditions.

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Now imagine being purchased at grace, great price, excuse me, great price, being set free,

which of course we use the word redeemed from the word of God, by a loving, generous

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landowner who lives across the street.

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So now we're free.

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We we get to live where we want to live, uh, we're we're free.

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this landowner that lives across the street invites you to come and live with him and to

work for him.

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And he has excellent living conditions, marvelous wages, an affable personality.

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It makes him working for him a delight.

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And literally, this is exactly what Jesus did for you and me.

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The only difference is that when I died to sin's mastery over me.

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because I participated in Jesus' death and resurrection in the exchange that he made for

me.

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I've been given uh the very life of Jesus Christ in his resurrection.

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I have this new life inside of me.

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Satan's control over me was totally broken.

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Yes.

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And I'm going to go back to reading.

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Your old master still lives across the street, so to speak.

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And he often calls to you to.

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do his bidding.

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He gives us these demands and uh and and tempts us to come across the street.

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And we can walk back across to those squalid conditions, but we don't have to anymore.

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Sin has no right to you.

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Now you're free to live your with your new master or for your new master, who, by the way,

when you work for him, he rewards you handsomely.

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So I I love this picture that is painted for us.

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We still have the ability to sin, but now the real issue here, the real freedom is we have

the freedom not to sin because God empowers us through his spirit and through this new

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nature to do that.

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You know, this is why I think living the exchange is one of the most undervalued resources

we actually have.

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It's one of the most valuable resources.

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I mean, that analogy yeah, okay.

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All right.

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All right, I'm gonna get over the brilliance of that.

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I'm gonna just gonna I'll ask the next question that I guess is begged by that.

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So why doesn't God's sovereignty cancel human responsibility?

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I mean, you think it would.

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Yeah.

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Well, it if we have human responsibility, then it can't cancel it.

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I mean it it's it it it's it God gave us the gift of choice.

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And that that that's a phrase that I prefer to use as a froze as opposed to uh free will.

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And that gift of choice h hands us human responsibility.

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However, God's gift of choice is not a surrender of his sovereignty.

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It's a gift of individuality.

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It's a gift of human responsibility.

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So when God gave me the gift of choice, he literally said, Jeff, I'm gonna let you be an

individual.

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Now we've taken we've taken that to an extreme, and I have to be true to myself.

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And no, we he gave me the gift of individuality so that I can be true to him and love him.

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I mean, I can't really love him if I'm a robot.

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And it's when I have the gift of choice that I now have the freedom and the responsibility

uh that goes with that freedom.

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Hm.

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I mean, I think I know a you know, I have my answer to this next question of what I've

thought of why uh this happens, but I just kind of curious, why do you why do you think

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Christians struggle, especially with this one, trying to explain this tension, trying to

you know, they really want sometimes more answers than scripture gives us out of this.

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Well

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And I don't I don't wanna say anything bad about anybody.

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Um, but we're not God.

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And quite frankly, I think sometimes we we make too much of ourselves and we don't I think

there's a time where we have to consciously admit that's above my pay grade.

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I I I'm I'm not supposed to figure that out.

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I think that we have to we have to rest in the fact that he is our good father and that we

are but children and as children, his children,

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We are children in our ability, therefore we need to depend on him to help us, and we are

children in our understanding.

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I I think that's why we have to cling to his promises and trust in his sovereign goodness.

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I can't figure that out.

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And there's times when things happen to me that doesn't seem good, and I get a little

perturbed at God and I I

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I feel like the psalmist when I'm saying, wait a minute, you said, and this is happening.

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And because there is, and I think it's the tension of the good and evil in myself, the

good and evil that happens to me that causes me to want to try to figure this out and get

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better.

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And and I think the key is I just have to cling to God's promises and trust the fact that

He is the sovereign and that He He is the good sovereign.

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Yeah, I love that.

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I love that.

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Um, so any dangers that you've identified in leaning too heavily toward either extreme

human autonomy or extreme human determinism?

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Yeah.

313

Well, when you were asked those questions, uh I I felt like I need to stop and kind of

let's give some definitions to them because uh I I want to answer the question I think

314

you're asking, uh, but I don't want to say words that other people might misunderstand.

315

human autonomy is freedom to choose without constraint.

316

And frankly, I mean that's autonomy.

317

I get to do anything I want to.

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And uh we've already said that's really an illusion.

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We we we are not autonomous.

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No one can override God's sovereignty.

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He alone is God.

322

And so I I think that gives us one of the ideas of the extreme and the dangers right there

of just those two terms.

323

The other term, uh determinism, this is

324

Every behavior is inevitable.

325

It's predetermined.

326

there's there's literally nothing I can do to to change anything.

327

Uh and um i it it when I s think of this, I I think we we have to recognize no, no, no,

no.

328

God gave us human responsibility.

329

And with human responsibility there that carries with it

330

consequences.

331

And so it's uh the uh n neither of those phrases are are actually

332

or or qu determinations that are uh those terms that we use, they're really not by

themselves true.

333

Um and they and and they take us to the extremes.

334

Um maybe I can rephrase the question and keep us kind of into the realm of what I feel

like is careful to or and and safe to talk about.

335

Um what are the dangers

336

Of focusing solely, and I use the word solely because I think focusing on God's

sovereignty is really, really good.

337

I actually think focusing on my responsibility is really, really good.

338

but what are the dangers of focusing solely on either human choice or God's sovereign

rule?

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on the one hand, if we're focusing on human choice.

340

we're becoming controllers and manipulators.

341

I have to, I mean, if if if if it's up to me, I have to make this happen.

342

And therefore I have to manipulate people, I have to try to control them.

343

And you just watch the world, the people who are living as manipulators and controllers,

their theology, whether they even know it or not, is they're focusing too much on their

344

own human choice.

345

on the other hand, it

346

When we focus too much on God's sovereign rule, uh, we become passive.

347

because you know, God determines all the outcomes, my actions won't, don't change

anything.

348

Uh so those those are the two dangers I think that we can get into.

349

And I thought that it would be wise for us to uh, you know, we've been talking about uh

sovereignty versus

350

human responsibility and s and all the pieces that go with that.

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Let's bring it back down to the topic of uh gospel talks.

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Where where does this fit in relational evangelism and disciple discipleship?

353

And I think while God uses human action to accomplish his work, we are merely instruments

in his hands.

354

I'm responsible, I love that word, to show the life of Jesus

355

everywhere I go and to touch as many people in with his life that I possibly can, but I

have to constantly remember apart from Jesus, I can do nothing.

356

So I'm responsible, but I'm dependent.

357

And I think that's a real good balance for us to keep.

358

it it doesn't mean that I throw my hands up in defeat.

359

I can't do anything apart from Jesus.

360

I I literally have to live moment by moment

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Dependent upon Jesus to produce his fruit.

362

So that phrase, you can do nothing apart from me, comes from John 15.

363

And in that t context, Jesus is telling us he's the vine, we're the branch.

364

And together we produce the fruit that Jesus wants in this world, whether it's fruit of my

actions or fruit of people trusting Christ as Savior.

365

But you and I both know.

366

w even though he chooses to use me as the branch, apart from him, I can do nothing.

367

So that's the that's the one side that we have to focus on.

368

The other side is that while God is the sovereign captain of salvation, I mean he's the

one who is wooing, he's the one who is choosing, he's the mover and shaker, my role is to

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get involved with him.

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He does choose us as the instruments of his righteous.

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And my job

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Is to show up every day and to present myself for duty.

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Romans chapter six, one of the classic passages on this concept and specifically

sanctification, how do we grow in the Lord?

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And Romans six thirteen says, present yourselves to God as those who have been bought from

death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.

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And so um the the

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Every mile of road that we walk, there are two miles of ditches that we have to stay out

of.

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And so we've got the ditch of I have to make it happen, or we have the ditch of God's

doing it all, I don't have to do anything.

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And so I think here's the key.

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in in my notes, I wrote down literally a a picture of a key.

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I have to present myself to duty every single day.

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That's to keep me from being passive.

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And I have to abide in Jesus every moment of every day, that's to keep me from being a

manipulator and a controller.

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It's it's it's all about him, but I have to present myself and be used of him.

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I love that.

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I think that's a great biblical balance.

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next time, because we've run out of time, but next time, in the fourth part and the final

part of this series, we guess I guess we need to ask how salvati if this is how salvation

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works, what difference should that make in evangelism or the Christian life?

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Um, because I think that's the next question.

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Yeah.

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And frankly, for those of you who are listening, that's that's actually the question we've

wanted to get through with all of these.

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And I hope you've enjoyed these conversations.

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but our thrust is, how does this affect us?

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So we'll we'll do that next week.

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Well, thank you guys so much for listening and thank you for those of you who support this

podcast and make it possible.

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if you'd like to give to continue to make this possible and grow this in its reach all

over the world, which it is reaching all over the world.

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I think in most recently I saw that an episode had a hundred and forty-four downloads in

China, had like I don't know, uh eighty downloads in South Africa.

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um something crazy like that.

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300 downloads in Canada.

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And so um, you know, there God is doing wonderful things.

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Um and if you'd like to contribute and help to make that possible, we would we would take

that investment and further the kingdom with it.

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You can give at exchangemessage.org forward slash donate.

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Thank you guys.

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Keep praying.

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Keep going out in the harvest.

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Uh we don't have a harvest problem.

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We have a labor shortage and pray with us to the Lord of Harvest that He would send forth

laborers who will abide and continue to take up their duties daily and be faithful and

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touching people with the life of Jesus.

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I love the way you put that.

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We love you guys and we will see you next week.