Jakob Feldtfos Christensen is a research manager at the Defaktum research centre in Denmark, an independent consultant, host of the Diversity in Research podcast and author of the book Diversity Leadership for Research Managers: A Practical Guide.

Sarah and Jakob talk about

• That diversity isn’t just about staff – it needs to be woven through every part of a research project
• How research professionals can step up and take the lead on diversity and inclusion
• Why more data isn’t the answer and can even make things worse
• The small steps and incremental progress that can lead to big changes over time

Find out more

• Find full show notes and transcript on the episode webpage
• Connect with Jakob on LinkedIn or via the Diversiunity website
• Get a copy of Jakob’s book - Diversity Leadership for Research Managers: A Practical Guide
• Listen to Sarah guesting on Jakob's Diversity in Research podcast

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Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: It's not just about us pushing boundaries, adjusting

to the organization, but it's sometimes the organization adjusting to us.

I'm not just a piece of data.

It is my actual life and the moment I can hide it, I can control it.

The moment I pass it over to you and I don't know what you're going to do

with it, I lose control of that and I'm going to pay the price for it.

My big concern in the current political environment that the EDI element of

research culture will be pushed in the background and still institutions

can say that they have been working on their research culture because

it includes so many other things.

Hello there.

I'm Sarah McLusky and this is Research Adjacent.

Each episode, I talk to amazing research adjacent professionals about what

they do and why it makes a difference.

Keep listening to find out why we think the research adjacent space

is where the real magic happens.

Hello, and welcome to Research Adjacent.

I am, as always, your host, Sarah McLusky.

Today, I'm delighted to introduce you to diversity and inclusion

expert, Jakob Feldtfos Christensen.

Jakob is a research manager at the Defactum Research Center in

Denmark, an independent consultant, host of the Diversity in Research

podcast, and now an author.

His book, Diversity Leadership for Research Managers, has just been released.

In our conversation, we talk about why research managers have more influence than

they might think, why more data is not the answer, and how to take steps in the right

direction, even though the complexity of diversity can feel overwhelming at times.

I've been a guest on Jakob's podcast, talking about the lack of diversity

amongst the research adjacent workforce, and if you are interested

in that, I'll include a link to that episode in the show notes.

So, it was fantastic to be able to return the favor and take time to talk about

his book and what research professionals can do to create and support more diverse

and inclusive research environments.

Listen on to hear Jakob's story.

Welcome along to the podcast, Jakob.

It's fantastic to have you here.

First of all, can you tell our audience a little bit about

who you are and what you do?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And thank you for having me here today.

It's a pleasure.

Yeah, so my name is Jakob and I am a research manager for been

so for almost 15 years now.

God, it's been long, hasn't it?

And no.

And apart from being a research manager here in Denmark, I started my career

at Aarhus University back in the day and now working at Defactum research

centre in Central Denmark region.

I also have Diversiunity, a small consultancy that works with making

diversity and internationalization work in research and research management.

And also now we're on a podcast co-host the Diversity in Research

podcast with Lachlan Stephen-Smith.

Where we had you as a guest.

Yeah.

And no.

And then I have based on the work on the podcast the consultancy we have driven,

the training we have run, I have written a book called Diversity Leadership for

Research Managers, A Practical Guide.

That'll be out on Emerald Publishing here in June, May, June, this, this year.

Fantastic.

Yeah, lots to get into there.

So first of all, clearly you've got the kinda day job, but everything

that you're doing around the day job relates to diversity.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And diversity, particularly within the research world.

Why is this something that's been so interesting to you?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah, so I think.

I have two reasons actually.

Perhaps say we always link diversity to internationalization because

internationalization is like a new normal in research today.

And I think.

A couple of things.

First of all, I studied history of religion when I and back in

university many years ago when I was a young and handsome.

Now I'm only handsome.

And so I have an interest in internationalization, cultural

differences and stuff like that.

On a personal level, as a gay man, I could see when I entered into

research management, that there wasn't discussions that weren't being had

relating to, to internationalization what could be done and couldn't be done,

and perspectives that I just didn't see being mentioned in the research.

And then I was part of the first cohort of the EARMA CRM

certification in research management.

And we had a module on gender and diversity and of course, we

basically just talked about gender.

And that's of course because that's when we say diversity in a European

research context is primarily gender, at least back then 10 years ago.

And as a gay man, I was like, yeah, I think it's a bit

more complicated than that.

So I started developing this interest for the topic back then already, and

then it slowly developed some more.

Started reading, I gave a presentation on the topic back in, I think in 2017.

Something like that at the INORMS conference in Edinburgh, where I met

Lachlan who was in the audience, and then we started writing a bit about it.

And then in the end I founded Diversiunity to see if we could

broaden out the agenda a bit more.

And also say that because I think a lot of the challenges that, and going perhaps

a bit into the, to the book already here, is I think one of the challenges

is that we, when we talk about diversity so much that is, is focused on HR.

Yeah.

And that is good.

And they clearly have a role in this.

But HR solves a task within the institution, but most research is

based on external research funding.

It happens inter-institutionally, often internationally.

And then we can come and say all we want about our national rules.

We have made a gender equality plan that says that we promote this and

that and we want an intersectional approach and promote LGBTQ+ issues.

If we have a partner in Saudi Arabia where being gay is illegal, HR can't solve that.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: That's not an HR problem.

So I think there is a, There is a big problem here.

And nobody's really equipped to use it.

And too often it lands with the individual researcher and often with

the research manager, either on, on the pre-award stage or post-award stage.

And they are left to solve it, and we haven't equipped them

with any kind of skills to do.

Yeah, I think there's certainly a lot of jobs that research

managers are doing, they're doing without kind of formal training

in them, but this is definitely, this definitely one of them.

And as you see, HR really is only looking at recruitment and then

employees of that organization.

And as you say research now it's done across institutions,

across international borders.

It's also with not just researchers, but also community partners and other

organizations, might be industry.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Exactly.

All sorts of things coming together in the mix.

And of course all of those people with all of their diverse and wonderful

contributions to bring to it, but without a framework for how to do that.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: And of course it's, and then we have to

navigate in the European context, the now the AI Act, GDPR you have all

sorts of national and international legislations that can support and make

it difficult for us to, that we have to look at in a research project context

that you don't necessarily always have to pay a lot of attention to in HR.

So this is not to, so it's not like I, I have a problem with HR or I

think they're doing a terrible job.

I think they're doing exactly the job they're supposed to do.

The problem is as I said in today's modern research, I just don't think that they are

always the people who have the task and don't necessarily should have the task.

And then we need to have a proper discussion about how do we actually

solve it without succumbing to the lowest common denominator.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you've said this book, as you said, the title of it, Diversity Leadership

for Research Managers, why focus on research managers specifically?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah I think first of all, I,

because I think that it is,

I think because I'm a research manager, so it's what I know, so

I can, it is basic thing to say.

Both to say, I think we're not, we don't have the skills

to solve it, which we should.

Two, I'm all, I also sometimes think that we undersell ourselves a bit as a

profession and I sometimes leave it to be some of people moving budgets, which

we do as, as well, and complete forms and do paperwork, which we do as well.

But I also think that we do a lot of other things and we should be proud

of that and push our role in, in that.

I also, and this was not so much a part of it when I started writing the book,

but things of course develop over a two year period, year and a half writing it

on AI to say, I think there is, there are a lot of the tasks that resource

managers do today on the administrative side, both with completing forms,

looking for relevant calls, screening things, commenting on proposals.

You can't leave it all to AI, but we definitely have AI tools that could reduce

the number of resource managers needed.

What can't be taken away and solved by AI is the interpersonal relationship.

So I also think this is also a way of future proofing the profession

in a changing time and I also think that a lot of the research

management or thoughts about research management happened in a time where

we had this idea about universities being a bit outside the real world.

Like science, diplomacy, blah, blah, blah, all these things.

Political reality of the real world didn't apply.

That's no longer the case, and particularly in a time of global tension.

I think it's really important that we have the proper vocabulary and skills to solve

some of these things that are chances that will only grow in the coming years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that, the importance of the interpersonal skills, that research

professionals have comes up again and again on this podcast.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: It does.

And in so many cases, these roles are the glue that holds

everything together, and that's connecting the people and the resources

and all of that sort of stuff.

So yeah, interpersonal skills really powerful.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: But if I could just interrupt here to just say

that I think, and I'm creating a bit of a strawman here I'm well aware,

but no, but interpersonal, we often reduce that in, in, in quotations

to being like about being polite.

And the individual person to person relationship.And

that is important as well.

I think one of the important.

Points for me with the book is to say there's a structural element to this.

About the, if we look at minorities, that's not just the individual

it is a population group.

If we look at inter international collaborations, there's a

cultural element to this.

Now, we shouldn't reduce persons to either their ethnicity or being

part of an underrepresented group, but just to say, this is, it's

more than being polite and nice.

There are structural elements to this, and when there are structural

elements, we can work with it and we can create skills to, to work with it.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And I think one thing, again, we, there was a whole episode of the podcast last

year about how research professionals are often in roles where they can actually

have quite a lot of influence or they can need to have a lot of influence.

The role requires them to persuade people to do stuff that they don't

necessarily want to do some of the time.

Even if they don't have the official authority, even if they're not

the head of department or the

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Exactly.

The director of something.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: And also it depends on, because research managers

is of course a lot of different things.

Which I talk about in the book as well.

When I was at Aarhus University, in my first job as a research manager,

I was part of a big research support office, only working pre-award and

narrow, two faculties, but had a ton of researchers that I interacted with.

In my current job, I am the research support office.

I'm the only one in, in, in the department.

Now we have some finance people.

I'm lying a bit here, but still my role and the task I have are much

more diverse than when you are in, in, in a big research supporter is at a

comprehensive university in in, in Europe.

So it's just to say, so particularly in though, I think in people who are

in roles like me who will be probably much more integrated into a department

or or what kind of structure you would be embedded in w ill have a, some roles

where you can play a much bigger role in some of these issues as, as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it makes a good case for why research managers, research professionals

are important people to work with.

Now, one thing that you say in the book that I really love the turn of

phrase, which is that diversity is complex, but it's not complicated.

I wonder if you could tell us a bit more what you mean by that.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah, and I think it's a bit of.

It's just to acknowledge because I think a lot of people, when we go

do training or consultancy or give a keynote, whatever it might be.

I think one of the things is that we can see that people are a bit

scared about touching on this because it's also and you are, you're in

the UK, diversity is very political.

At least some some identities are currently incredibly politicized

right now, which is of course the case in many countries.

So there's that part of it that, that of course gets people a bit away.

And it is complex because you have a number of identities with cultural

issues as well, but when I say it can be complex but not complicated,

is we make it complicated when the moment that, the moment you put human

beings into a, into the equation, it becomes complicated to some extent,

but we can also take ourselves a bit out of the, of the equation.

And particularly if, again, go back to the whole skills agenda and say,

actually we need to have a proper vocabulary and we need to have proper

skills, how to work with this, then it becomes less complicated 'cause we have

some tools to navigate the complexity.

And I think it's important to to keep those two terms a bit separated

and wonder if you're faced with one of these challenges about

diversity and internationalization.

Is am I making it complicated or more complicated than it actually is?

And could we, by taking a step back or doing some of these, using some

of the tools described in the book, could we manage the complexity

to, to some level at least.

It'll always be complex.

Yeah.

But we can, at least, I think it's important that we make that distinction

and work with it in our daily jobs so that we don't get overwhelmed and don't let he

complicatedness of human beings overwhelm our, the actual work with a complex issue.

Yeah.

You've said there that you've got tools in the book and suggestions for what

sorts of things people could be doing.

One of the first thing you've said there is around diversity literacy.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

What do you mean by that?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: I think it's important because if we, if.

I think one of the challenges, and we as underrepresented groups and I

can say that as a gay man, we could created this kind of bit for us,

ourselves, this problem that we think that the solution to everything is

representation and to some extent it is.

Representation is important.

Let me stress that right away.

That I fully agree, but representation being part of the, of an

underrepresented group isn't the same as having skills in the field.

So I think we need to separate the things and we also have to say the more we, the

moment we go beyond in a European context, gender and particularly a gender binary,

and we talk, start talking about race and LGBTQ plus issues and ethnicity, religion,

age, neurodiversity, all these other issues, it becomes incredibly complex and

we, and the moment you start talking about intersectionality, so black gay women

for example, you get into a granularity where representation

just isn't possible always.

Yeah.

So we need to develop skills, and I think this is relevant for all research matters,

but I think particularly on a pre-award stage because it is always a bit rushed.

We always last minute to before the deadline looking at this proposal.

So having some sort, some level of diversity literacy in order to

say, are there diversity aspects here that we should keep in mind.

Problems, but also potentials.

Are there some real potentials here that we could bring to life by

adding a diversity dimension to it?

So that is why I talk about we need to develop diversity literacy.

Because we can't just push it to be a question for underrepresented groups.

We have a responsibility as part of the research ecosystem and supporting in, in,

in research projects at different levels.

And when I said diversity literacy it's both to have some knowledge, having a

vocabulary to be able to talk about it, but also some tools to be able to advance

the agenda in different ways depending on where you work in the research ecosystem.

And I've tried to.

I have a full chapter, I think it's the longest chapter in the book

where I look at four different roles as research managers, a pre-award,

post-award, strategy and policy, and then as an open science advisor to

say, how can you actually you work with it in specifically in these

different, in these different roles?

'Cause there's a longer description, but I think that's a short version about what

I mean with di with diversity literacy.

Also 'cause we have, if it's skill, we need to have something something to tie it

to, but also so that we don't fall into a trap of discussing definitions endlessly.

Yeah.

So I think that's it is how do you take it from this knowledge and a

language to talk about it to actually doing something constructive.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And I think there's some different, we have developed some tools over the years

that we use, and some are, and they're of course in, in the book as well.

So for on pre-award we've developed a whole model about how you can think

about diversity and include it on different stages of a research proposal.

Another tool we tried to develop is a logic model for how to, how to create

an inclusive research support office.

'cause I think one of the other challenges that we face or is that we

say that diversity is something up there.

It's, it is something about in the research community

or in the research itself.

I don't think we're good enough to look at research managers.

Are we diverse enough?

Have we created the proper inclusive environments in research support offices.

So it's so having this model to say how, looking at different things

that you can work on from a, from a research support office point of

view I think is is important, but also tools for analyzing if you are

want to launch a new initiative, actually analyzing what could be the implementation

challenges for different scales.

So we're trying to break it down and make it more tangible without,

without making, without the illusion there are any quick fixes.

Yeah.

Or any fixed solutions, because I think that is the whole point of this,

is that there are no easy solutions.

I guess it depends on who are, which underrepresented groups

are you working with here?

And if it's a, in, if you're supporting a research project, which

countries, which nationalities, legislations are involved here.

How person centred is it?

If it's a project on theoretical mathematics we probably don't have a

lot of GDPR issues w ith the data we collect in the project, we still have

issues with the people involved in it.

But it's just to say that's of course different for if we're looking at

inclusive clinical trials in a project.

So it has been and that is also one of the challenge of had writing it and discussed

that with myself and the people I have reading it, does it become too abstract?

And I try to make it tangible by examples, but it is a lot of frameworks and

questions to ask more than it is specific solutions because the solutions are not

there and anyone telling you so is lying.

But still trying to make it as tangible as possible.

Making it into steps and breaking it a bit down into smaller pieces that

also, as we talked about, research managers are many different things.

So make it tangible for people to do something about it, no matter how many

stars they have on their shoulders.

Yeah.

It's interesting you say there, I. It that totally resonates with

me that we often think about how to make the research diverse.

So as you say, if you're recruiting for a study you'll be very careful about,

who are the people that you want to be represented, and how do you make that

fair, and how do you make that equal?

And much less good and also I think it happens, as you say,

with HR and recruitment as well.

Yeah.

So that then again, the research teams might be, that's been considered,

but I definitely have noticed how rarely we turn that lens on ourselves.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And I, I'm not the only person to raise it, but it

doesn't get talked about very much.

No.

That the, this research management, research professionals world in

the UK at least is very female.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And nobody seems to ask any questions about that and ask what,

what might be the biases and assumptions that come along with having a group of

people that are predominantly female.

And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying nobody

seems to ask any questions.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: And, and when they do, I ha I haven't, I ha I

have a good friend who tried raising the question in an EARMA context.

And the room went absolutely silent.

Yeah.

I've had a similar reaction.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Nobody, didn't see a problem with it, and

didn't see any reason to discuss it.

And I know it's the same, it's a probably the same in, in the US

where you can also see there can be also a race dimension to it.

Where as someone said, going, if you go to the university, you'll

see a lot of white male professors.

If you go to a research professional conference, you'll

see a lot of black women.

And I think that it sometimes, yeah, it, as you

say, it's not about necessarily saying this is what has to be done.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: No,

but sometimes just.

Take a look around Yeah.

And ask questions

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: And those are the visible things.

Yeah, exactly.

They're all these other, yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: It's one of the points we always bring you bring

to training and in another context is you never know who's in the room.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And everybody's got a personal story that is, complicated in some way.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah, exactly.

Even if it's not, as you say, visible characteristics,

even if it's not these, what in the UK are called protected characteristics.

People have, hidden disabilities or caring responsibilities or things like

that, which affect how they show up.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And I think the moment we don't recognize that we leave all the responsibility

for thriving on underrepresented groups.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's something that, that you, again, you mentioned

in the book, don't you?

And that this is something, it's long been said for certain groups like it, it's not

for that underrepresented group themselves to solve the, to solve the problem?

No.

But that can leave people.

And I totally agree with that, but it can also leave people floundering as

to what to do because certainly in the engagement world that I come from, there's

this and also the disability, it's, it comes from the disability world, this

idea of nothing about us without us.

So you want to include those people definitely and listen to them

and listen to their perspective and their point of views.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Definitely.

I agree that it's not their responsibility to solve the problem,

so how do we juggle that situation?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah, exactly.

And also, and how do we juggle it when it, when we realize we

need to do something three days before a deadline on a proposal?

We can't just, then we don't have time to, to create an advisory

board and call a meeting in three weeks time and discuss this.

We need to be able to do something on our own, not as an excuse not to involve

people but a combination of both.

And also, when you have the representation you can't make one

person represent a full group.

You can't.

I can't represent the entire LGBTQ+ community.

I can't even represent the gay men community because, I'm

a white gay man in Denmark.

It's probably one of the easiest places to be a gay man and

I'm quite gender conforming.

And a cis man, so if I don't tell people I'm gay, some people

won't necessarily Notice it.

So in that sense, I'm in, I'm not necessarily a very good

representative, even in a Danish context, which is one thing.

We actually need need skills.

And I'll also say.

White gay men is probably the one group in the LGBTQ+ community we don't

need anymore representation from, I, I should stay on the sideline.

And let other people come to the table and bring that perspective.

But just to say it, when we go into this, it is a complex matter.

And again, that's why we need skills around it.

Also to when to acknowledge the limitations about what we are doing.

And that is not to say that we should, if we can't do it all, the point in the

book is we easily make this everything everywhere, all at once, problem.

And the point is to say that it's okay to be pragmatic.

We have to start somewhere.

We start with one group, or we can start in one project, or we can start with

one dimension of the of the proposal or start doing one thing in our,

let's say in our consortium meetings.

Small steps or steps and taking small steps in this field because it's new

and it's complex and, and sensitive.

Every small step we take is a, is leadership.

Yeah.

And when you say small steps, one of the things that often comes

up is people then want data.

Before they do anything.

Yes.

Why can that be a bit problematic?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: First of all, I think we have

two different.

They, oh, not two different, there are a ton of issues that, but let's

focus on on, on a couple of them.

One thing is, of course, the granularity.

If you start collecting data, and we, again, if we go into intersectionality,

if we make it about who are the black lesbian women with a disability.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: If there are any

if there are any Yeah it might just be one.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: There's probably just one or two.

So we are easily naming them and outing people.

Now, some of this is visible, you probably, if they were in a wheelchair,

you have an idea that they have some sort of disability, but you also have

disabilities who are not visible.

So in that sense, you easily out people when we go into that, and if we don't

go into granularity and having two big groups, somebody might, may not really

be interesting data you you can use.

So in that sense, there's one problem with that.

The second is.

On an institutional level, you should say, because that's always the

first question we get from or come get from institutional leadership.

When we are doing work, we need more data on our institution before we do work.

And so first of all, the data is out there.

We know what all the problems are, so you can actually act upon general knowledge

a nd create an inclusive culture.

And also the whole point of this is that we are building trust.

We are in this situation because we didn't build trust, and most underrepresented

groups don't trust institutions because we are faced too much pushback,

harassment, et cetera, et cetera.

So the first step in building trust is that institution does something.

Only when I trust you, if I can see you're serious about it, I am

going to trust you with my data.

Because for me, this, for me as a gay man, it's not data.

It's my life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: I'm not just a piece of data.

It is my actual life and the moment I can hide it, I can control it the

moment I pass it over to you and I don't know what you're going to

do with it I lose control of that and I'm going to pay the price for.

it If there is harassment, and then you collect the data, it's out there and

you can see there's a number of gay men and we can come out and then harassment

starts and the institution say, oh, we didn't think this was happening.

We don't know what to do with it.

And so I think, so first of all, I don't think the data is necessary and

second of all, it's the second step.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not the first thing.

No, and I think it's this, as you say, creating these

spaces where people feel safe.

This comes up so much and, I do a lot of event management and that's

one of the things it's always a big priority for me is how do I make

everybody feel included and safe.

It is a big thing.

But it also connects to the conversations that are going on

at the moment and certainly in the UK about research culture.

Yeah.

And what it means to change research culture.

Yeah.

And this is a really big part of that, isn't it?

And

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: It is.

It's and people keep saying things like, oh, but how do we

measure if we've changed research culture and I do understand that it's a problem

because it's more of a feeling than Yeah.

Something you can measure.

But I think everybody knows it when they feel it most.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

And I also think, and one of the problems is that the only thing you can really, my

point would be that you can only measure it in one way of, if we look at it on

an institutional level, on belonging.

And it is incredibly frustrating that you can do all sorts of initiatives

and implement all sorts of things, and still, I might not feel like I belong.

And that is up to other people to decide whether you did a good enough job.

I think it's is challenging for people.

They want some sort of neutral measure that they can control and you can't.

But I also.

I think, and I covered it a bit in the book as well I do have a bit of a

problem with the whole research culture term because this part is part of

it on diversity and underrepresented groups, it's so politicized and it's so

sensitive, and it's challenging to see what to measure, et cetera, et cetera.

It's easy for institutions to say that.

We'll park that for a moment and then we'll work with open science.

'Cause that's also research culture and then suddenly when you go back

to them face, but you haven't done anything about this open, but we

have worked with research culture.

Yeah.

I my big concern in the current political environment and with global tensions,

et cetera, we, that the EDI element of research culture will be pushed in

the background and still institutions can say that they have been working

on their research culture because it includes so many other things.

So we kind in giving them a get out of jail free card on this topic.

That is my big concern.

Yeah.

No I don't disagree with you.

I think that culture, I think anybody would, when you think about a workplace

culture, we think about, as you say, how you feel about going to work.

Yeah.

How you feel like you belong.

Whether it's not about whether or not people can read the publications, that

come out the organization, but some of those things they, I understand.

Oh, it's just this cultural built in thing to want to measure

things and put them on scales.

Yeah.

And score it.

And partly it's just baked into the brains of academics, isn't it?

That's how you demonstrate anything.

But it's, then that's not how people live.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: No.

And then there's also the whole discussion about qualitative and quantitative data.

Because when we need talk about data.

I have this idea that it is, that it has to be quantitative.

And in this case, I think the there is a strong case for

qualitative data and setting up the correct, some correct setups.

Whether through focus groups or individual interviews or could be surveys as well.

This would of course require people, but again, if you want to measure it,

the first step is still that you show some initiative because in order to

measure it, we need people to trust you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which comes back to that sense of belonging again, doesn't it?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: It does.

It does.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: But I see the point with research culture and I

would say all the people I'm, I know that work with research culture are

aware of this and try to get, go beyond those challenges, but it's of course not

always up, up to them to decide that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: I have my concerns, but.

As you say, I think a lot of people trying

to do that bottom-up work.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah.

But only getting so far when the system

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: sure doesn't

allow

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: it, it has it limit its limitations.

'Cause at some point you need stronger support from leadership

and have some suggestion for that in, in the book as well.

But still, I think it is, it's important not to let that discourage people from

taking initiative and doing something.

And remembering that even the small steps in something like this can make one hell

of a difference for, pardon my French, for for people from underrepresented groups.

Yeah.

Even the smallest things to have other people recognize that it's not

just about us pushing boundaries and pushing the organization or adjusting

to the organization, but it's sometimes the organization adjusting to us.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: And that can be on very small scale and still be a

very meaningful change for the individual.

And then you have something to build on.

I think that's more important than believing that we have to yeah, do

everything everywhere all at once.

Yeah.

Oh, leading on from that, I'm really interested to hear your answer to

this question, which is, if you had a magic wand, what would you change

about the world that you work in?

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Oh, only one thing.

I think I would.

If we stay, let's stick within the area of what we discussed today.

I think the world peace would probably be the much, much needed at this.

I think we could all do with that right now.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: I don't think one magic wand would would be enough for,

Depends what you use it for, but Yeah.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: But in, in the context of the discussion here

today, I think if we could make the research ecosystem broadly realize that

diversity and internationalization are two agendas that don't go very well

hand in hand, and we need actual skill to solve it beyond good intentions.

I think that would be a tremendous step forward.

Yeah.

Sounds like an excellent use.

Of the magic wand,

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: perhaps very pragmatic use

A very pragmatic,

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: But I think that, but of course it

would be best to say that we had all no everybody could work across

cultures and all under-represented groups were accepted everywhere.

Again, that would be the ideal situation.

And then there was absolutely no need for me or my book, but yeah.

But in a real realistic setting, I think that would be something I think

could make it a real discussion.

So we have proper discussions about the issues without blaming people.

Or groups or without, and not, creating false dichotomies, but

just having a real discussion about how the real world action looks.

Because then we can work, then we can work with it.

It's, it won't be easy, but then at least we can work with it in a way where

that we can't as long as we pretend like there is one shared academic culture

everywhere, which I'm, next time I hear someone say that I'm gonna scream.

And we can just do the things by being polite to everybody.

Having a, having I think having proper honest conversations, polite,

but honest conversations about it.

Because then we can be ambitious but pragmatic.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's it.

Definitely just talking about it more I think would make a

big difference, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you so much.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Thank you for having me.

It was fun

for coming along.

If people want to find out more about you, the work you do, your book where

can they find all of those things.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Yeah, I think the best place to find out more more

about what we do is on diversiunity.com.

Yeah.

And of course the website.

Always look me up on LinkedIn.That's where we are most active.

And then you can find our podcast if you in, looking interested in this

little area of research and research management wherever you listen to podcasts

where you have listened to this one.

Yeah.

You can probably find us as well with the Diversity in Research podcast.

And so that's that's it.

And I'll be shamelessly promoting the book on LinkedIn and everywhere else if

people want the link to where they can find it and tell their home institutions

that the library should buy it as well.

Fantastic.

We shall put all of those links in the show notes so people can find them there.

So thank you so much.

Jakob Feldtfos Christensen: Thank you.

Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.

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