Are you tired of finding yourself in toxic relationships, Dear Listener? Wondering how to break the cycle and find someone who truly complements you? Then this episode is tailor-made for you! Join us as we introduce a practical 5-step process that you can use to finally find healthy, lasting love.

We begin with an overview of the four keys to avoiding toxic relationships, then delve into the crucial practice of mindfully assessing compatibility. Learn how to conduct compatibility experiments that quickly clarify your relationship's health. Jessica and Josh share personal anecdotes and practical tips to illustrate how fear-based dating practices lead to high-conflict relationships and what you can do instead.

By the end of this episode, you'll be equipped with a five-step process that is invaluable in avoiding toxic relationships and mindfully evaluating your potential partners. From clarifying your relationship vision to assessing the data collected from compatibility experiments, you’ll gain the tools to create a loving, secure partnership.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

01:45 - How do I stop getting into toxic relationships?

05:58 - Mindfully assessing compatibility

13:19 - Fear-based dating vs. mindfully assessing compatibility

24:26 - The five steps to mindfully assessing compatibility

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People by Lindsay C. Gibson

Ep. 2 - What to Look for in a Long-Term Partner

What to Look for in Partner free guide

Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love by John Gottman Ph.D., Julie Schwartz Gottman Ph.D., Doug Abrams,  and Rachel Carlton Abrams M.D.

Ep. 12 - Dating While Healing From Trauma

Ep. 4 - How pacing can help you find love that lasts

Big Talk and Heart-Opening Questions: Conversation Tips for Shy Introverts Who Can’t Seem to Find an LTR

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

A brief content warning for you, dear listener.

2

This episode does touch

very briefly on stalking.

3

If that is a topic that is a

little too much for you to hear

4

about today, I recommend going

ahead and skipping this one.

5

From the relationship center, I'm

psychotherapist, couples counselor

6

and dating coach, Jessica Engel.

7

And this is, I Love You too,

a show about how to create and

8

sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach, Josh Van Vliet.

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On today's episode, we're

going to talk about how to stop

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getting into toxic relationships.

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We're so happy you're here.

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And please remember that this show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

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a licensed mental health professional.

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Hello.

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Hello, dear listener.

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Welcome to this month's podcast

episode, all about how to stop

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getting into toxic relationships.

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particularly excited about this topic.

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Like I think this is one that

comes up a lot for anybody who's.

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Dating period.

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I mean really.

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Jessica: Mm-Hmm.

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Josh: and for any number of reasons.

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We could talk about attachment styles,

we could talk about drama, we could

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talk about all the different things.

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Jessica: Right, regardless of the

reason, sometimes it's hard to know

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the how of how to stop those patterns.

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Um, so that's really the aim today.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Jessica: Yes, I'm excited, too.

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Before we get started, dear

listener, if you love our show,

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well, we love you, too, and we want

to be in touch between episodes.

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To get more free dating, relationship,

and social anxiety advice,

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please go to RelationshipCenter.

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com slash newsletter.

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Okay, shall we dive in?

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Josh: Let's do it.

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So I think we just start right

in here with, How do I stop?

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How do I stop it?

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How do I do it?

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How do I stop getting

into toxic relationships?

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Jessica: Steps to stopping the pattern

of getting into toxic relationships.

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And the last one is really going

to be the focus of today's episode.

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So a little bit of a reveal here

and at the end of this list.

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Uh, Okay,

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So first step to stopping that

pattern would be to learn the signs

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of toxic relationships, right?

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You and I talked, uh, in depth

about that in our stay or go

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episode, which we'll link to.

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Definitely check that one out.

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number two is going to be to learn

the characteristics, behaviors, and

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red flags of toxic people, whether

that's narcissistic people or

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emotionally immature people, etc.

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We don't have an episode on that, so this

may be a reason for us to make that but

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we'll link to one of my favorite episodes.

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Books on the topic of

emotionally immature people.

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Uh, I think that one's a really

great one to, to look at.

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Josh: give just like an example

or two of that just to help people

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picture what you're talking about?

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Jessica: So in dating, one really

common characteristic of a toxic

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person is fast forwarding, which we

talk about in our pacing episode.

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So somebody who wants to really fast

forward you through the very normal

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stages of building a relationship.

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So, instead of Slowly

getting to know each other.

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Maybe they're ready to take you to meet

their parents on date three or they really

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want to go on a trip internationally

after a weekend of knowing you.

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Josh: Right, right.

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Jessica: right.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes that can

point to narcissism.

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Sometimes that can just point

to emotional immaturity.

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Um, there can be a lot of different

reasons for that, but that's

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generally toxic just in the sense

of it has a tendency to bond you

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to that person really quickly.

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Such that when more negative

behaviors start showing up, you

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feel less inclined to leave.

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Josh: Perfect, thanks.

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Jessica: Mm hmm.

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Great.

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So, we have learned the signs of

toxic relationships and people.

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The third thing to do to stop

getting into toxic relationships

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is to heal relational trauma.

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So, sometimes when we have a pattern

of getting into these really unhealthy

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relationships, that is coming from

unresolved trauma that we are either

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just unconsciously stuck in, or

on some level trying to heal, or

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trying to have a different ending.

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Um, and oftentimes that

again is not conscious.

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This is probably not a foreign idea

to our dear listener, because it's

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a pretty common idea out there in

sort of the dating adviso spheres.

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You know, sometimes we attract

our mom, or our dad, or whoever

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it was that hurt us in the past.

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We do have a dating while healing from

trauma episode I recommend on that topic.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Great.

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Jessica: And drumroll please.

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Number four for how to stop getting

into toxic relationships is to

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mindfully assess compatibility.

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Mac love

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Josh: compatibility.

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I

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love it.

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I love it.

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And I'm wondering, does this

kind of presuppose that you are,

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you've already kind of identified.

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I've been getting into toxic

relationships and I'm looking

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for how to stop that, right?

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If you're someone who's listening

to this and like, am I getting

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into toxic relationships?

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I'm not quite sure.

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That points to the first

step or two, right?

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Looking at what are the signs of

toxic relationships so you can

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know, is that what I'm doing?

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Um, or what are the signs

of maybe a toxic person?

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That would be the place to start

there if you're not quite sure.

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If you're listening to this and

like, yeah, no, I've, I've done that.

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I keep doing it.

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I'd like to stop doing

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it.

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Uh, that

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points to.

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Steps three or four, really.

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Healing the relational trauma and

mindfully assessing compatibility.

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Jessica: Yes.

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You got it.

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Josh: Beautiful.

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Okay, great.

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Jessica: So, Mindfully Assessing

Compatibility, again, we're going to

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go into this super in depth today.

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Generally, toxic, unhealthy

relationships originate from, at least

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in part, a lack of really mindful

discernment and healthy boundaries.

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Both of which are a big part of this

process I'm going to be introducing.

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MAC ing.

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Um, I love it.

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I love the acronym because I

really like macaroni and cheese.

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And also, when I was growing

up a friend of mine used to

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refer to making out as MAC ing.

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It works on so many levels.

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So,

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um, So those unhealthy relationships

Instead of mindful assessment

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of compatibility, those are

typically actually pretty chock

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full of what I'm going to call

unconscious relationship tests.

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Where we're testing the other

person to see if they're going

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to do what we're going to do.

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Perhaps people who have hurt

us have done in the past.

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See if they're going to stick around.

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See if they're going to

respect our autonomy.

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So often from an insecure

attachment place, um, and surprise,

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those aren't actually usually

very good for a relationship.

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In contrast, more Secure functioning,

healthy relationships typically start

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out with a period of intentionally

assessing compatibility, not in a

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manipulative way, but in a way that really

honors and respects both people's time

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Josh: Mm-Hmm.

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Jessica: and needs.

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Josh: I love that.

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I love that so much.

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And, and that's an important distinction

between testing someone, setting up an

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intentional kind of manipulative test

to see if they're going to behave in a

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way that you want them to, versus what

we're going to be talking about today,

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mindfully assessing compatibility, where

there is a way in which, test is maybe

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not the best word for it, but there

is a way in which you are Thank you.

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Doing something to ascertain, is this

a good fit and seeing how they respond.

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But there's a way in which it's,

yeah, it's really honoring both

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people, uh, rather than being

kind of sneaky or manipulative.

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Jessica: And, and I'm going

to be referring to those tests

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that are more mindful, that are

more pro social as experiments.

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Josh: that.

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Perfect word for it.

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Jessica: Beautiful.

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Well, I would love to talk about why

mindfully assessing compatibility

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is important and the antidote to

these toxic unhealthy relationships.

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Okay.

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Like why we're even

talking about this really.

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Um, and I want to contrast reactive

fear based dating, which is hella common

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and more mindful self aware dating.

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Which is hella possible.

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Love it.

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So, oftentimes, I find that the

clients that we're working with

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are our friends and loved ones.

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When they encounter a yellow flag or a

red flag in a relationship, they tend to

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default to a couple different strategies.

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One is to continue the relationship as

is, because nobody's perfect, and there's

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so few people I want to date anyways, and

I've never felt this way about anyone,

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and love overcomes all obstacles, right?

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So there can be this sort of awareness

that something seems a little bit

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off, but I'm going to hold on to this

because maybe anxious attachment,

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maybe they're romantic, and this

As you can imagine, really runs the

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risk, the strategy of ensconcing

you in an unhealthy relationship.

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Josh: Yeah, give an example

here just to make this concrete.

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Um,

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Let's say you're dating someone and

you maybe ask a question that invites

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a little bit more vulnerability, a

little bit more open hearted sharing,

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and they make a kind of dismissive joke.

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Right.

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Well, you know, yellow flag, right?

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They're not, uh, they're not yes

and they're not saying yes to your

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bid for connection, for a deepening

of the relationship, deepening of

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vulnerability with, with each other.

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They're kind of like putting it

down and, and not meeting you there.

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And so what you're saying

here, one of the strategy some

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people do is like, okay, great.

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Well, you know, I didn't like that.

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That didn't feel great to me.

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But no one's perfect, so, eh,

whatever, I'll just keep going.

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Jessica: Yeah, exactly.

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There's just sort of a, not really sure

what to do with this, so let's keep going.

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Yeah.

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The other strategy that we see is maybe

that moment comes up and the person

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ends the relationship immediately.

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Josh: Yeah, it's like, I'm out,

this is the first sign of trouble,

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this person is toxic, I'm done.

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Jessica: they say I don't want to

be stuck in a bad relationship.

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There's going to be somebody

out there who is, you know.

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Better than this, right?

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So that maybe comes a little bit more from

the avoidant attachment side of things,

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uh, the maximizer side of things, okay?

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And that runs the risk of disqualifying

potentially wonderful partners, right?

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It's the other side of that

kind of toxic relationship coin.

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And that sort of approach can sometimes

promote, I think, an experience a lot

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of our listener, listeners and clients

may have of, really kind of intense

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starts to relationships and then sudden

endings, which in and of itself can

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be really hard on the nervous system.

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So, obviously, neither of these

strategies really actively finds a way

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to engage with the yellow flag in a

way that actually obtains information

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about the relationship's potential.

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And I think that's completely

understandable because we don't really

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have tools for taking that information

and using it in a productive way.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Jessica: So we're going to change

that today with our mindful

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assessment of compatibility.

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I'm going to be giving

a five step process.

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Love it.

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'cause we love steps,

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love steps, .And I'm gonna go into,

into depth about the kind of the heart

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of this process, which is compatibility

experiments, which I mentioned earlier.

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The point of all of this, is

to really support, uh, you dear

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listener, to date with mindfulness,

with purpose and clarity.

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To speed up the process of

clarifying what's possible

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in a particular relationship.

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When we're coming from those other

strategies I mentioned, I'm just

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going to see, you know, that one in

particular, you can take a lot of

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time engaging with someone before

realizing that they're not it.

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So we really want to allow you

to not be stuck in a relationship

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for, say, years before you realize

you're not actually compatible.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Yeah, and I think even for the folks

who maybe cut off relationships at

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the first sign of a yellow flag, we're

also saving, hopefully going to save

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you some time because when doing that,

you're going to bounce from relationship

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to relationship pretty quickly and

never really get a chance to assess a

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relationship's true potential because

you're, you're bouncing so quickly.

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Uh, and so you both, both are having a lot

of relationships that don't go anywhere.

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And you're also potentially missing

out on some great relationships.

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Jessica: I want

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to share a story from my relationship

life that really contrasts pretty

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extremely the difference between

Fear based dating and relating

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versus the more mindful dating, okay?

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Um, so.

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I'm currently married to you, Josh, my

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Josh: Yes, you are.

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Jessica: Um, happily so, in

what is the best, healthiest

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relationship I've ever been in.

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And we got there in part because we

both did, I think, a lot of mindful

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compatibility assessment together.

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Even though I don't know if you would

have put those words to it at the

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Josh: put those words to it at the time.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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So I learned to do that.

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Through my experience not doing that.

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Josh: As we learn so many

good lessons in our lives.

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Jessica: I mean, I also learned it

from being a dating and relationship

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coach and a couple service.

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You do pick up a lot, but of

course, direct experience is the

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best way to really get a lesson.

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So there was another

relationship in my adult life,

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um, that was a long

term deep relationship.

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It was one that started unexpectedly.

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It was somebody that we both anticipated.

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It was a casual connection

and it, we ended up falling

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for each other very quickly.

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And from the beginning I was very clear

that we were very different in some ways.

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Um, at the time I had done some work

around figuring out what I wanted.

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But I wasn't super clear about it.

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I wasn't clear to the extent of

knowing what my deal breakers were or

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what boundaries I was going to set.

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And so we just went for it.

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And I would say, you know, I want

to try not to speak too much for my

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accent, try to speak more for myself.

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I rushed in, I did not pace

and I didn't check out a lot of

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the things that were concerning

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me.

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Josh: concerned anyway.

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And when you say you rushed in, what's

an example of what that looked like?

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Jessica: Oh, I mean we were

living together, I want to

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say within a few months.

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Yeah,

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Josh: Pretty

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Jessica: Pretty

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quick, pretty quick.

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We definitely fast forwarded through

those really natural stages of

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building a secure relationship.

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And I was getting, I was getting

messages from my partner that they

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weren't on the same page with me about

a lot of things I wanted in my life.

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And I kept going, right?

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And that for me, I think, came from

anxious attachment, came from it's so hard

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to find somebody I actually want to be

with, came from love conquers all, right?

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If you feel intensely about

someone, that's gotta mean

307

there's magic present, right?

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Josh: Yeah,

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and and because I, I know you and I,

I know the story, I know There were

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some really wonderful things about this

relationship, which I think is probably

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true for, for many of our listeners.

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If you're, you know, you've been in

that relationship or maybe you are in

313

that relationship right now, right?

314

Where there's a lot of great things.

315

It's like, there's a lot

of like excitement and what

316

feels like possibility.

317

And then as you're saying, right, there's

those places where there are signals.

318

We're not on the same page about this.

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We're not on the same

page about that thing.

320

yeah, love conquers all.

321

And it's hard out there.

322

I don't want to go back

on the dating scene.

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Jessica: Right.

324

Uh.

325

And the good parts are so good.

326

The

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Josh: parts are so good.

328

Yeah.

329

Jessica: Yeah, and you know, hindsight,

I can see all the places where that

330

relationship and that partner pushed

all the right buttons in terms

331

of my early attachment material.

332

It was very familiar.

333

So yes, you're right on.

334

There were a lot of really beautiful,

healthy, growthful aspects of that

335

relationship, and then there were also

a lot of places where we fought, right?

336

We felt missed by one another

337

we were what's called high

passion, high conflict.

338

So you're, you have your, the high

highs and then you have the low lows.

339

And a lot of those low lows were

about, I mean, it was about, I think,

340

on my end unresolved trauma and then

also incompatibilities, right, that

341

weren't being acknowledged fully.

342

And so, you know, we, we had

plans and promises to be together

343

forever and the relationship

ended in spite of all of that.

344

And, you know, ended.

345

With as many sparks as it

started with, just not the

346

kind of sparks you want, right?

347

Very fiery crash.

348

It was an incredibly painful breakup.

349

I lost Everything.

350

Uh, it was not a legal marriage, and so

I've had no rights to the home that my

351

partner owned, and the car that we drove

together, and you know, on and on and on.

352

Lost my best friend, my

seeming life partner.

353

Easily one of the most painful

things I've ever gone through.

354

Um, and I've survived a lot.

355

So, I don't, I'm sharing that piece Not to

paint myself as a victim or blame my ex.

356

I was responsible for at least

50 percent of our dynamic.

357

Um, but I, I think it's important to

highlight the like incredible risks

358

and downsides of that fear based

dating and of that lack of mindfully

359

assessing compatibility, right?

360

Getting entwined before really,

really assessing what's true

361

all relationships are risks, but some

are calculated risks, and some are like

362

jumping out of an airplane and like

hoping there's a chute on your back,

363

Josh: hoping you're gonna find

a parachute somewhere in the

364

air while you're flying for

365

Jessica: your partner has the parachute.

366

Yeah, so this was, you know, An incredibly

difficult relationship experience.

367

Some beautiful parts, but also

in the end, very, very painful.

368

And so that was what I was

coming back into the dating

369

pool with a number of years ago.

370

Um, I think I was about 33.

371

And I was terrified because I wanted

to find somebody to have kids with.

372

And it felt like the clock was ticking.

373

And that relationship experience left

me with a sense of, well, if love

374

doesn't conquer all, what do I do?

375

Josh: Yeah,

376

Jessica: What do I do?

377

Josh: Yeah

378

Jessica: so what I did, I mean I grieved

a lot for a couple of years, and in that

379

process, you know, leaned on my friends

a lot, went to therapy, did a lot of

380

self reflection, and in that time I got

really, really, really clear about what

381

I needed in a relationship and partner.

382

What I would accept and what I wouldn't.

383

And what I call my dating Achilles heels.

384

So the things in other people

that, um, tend to not have a lot

385

of like prefrontal cortex around.

386

Josh: else

387

Jessica: How else would I put that?

388

Josh: They kind of bypass your

wiser brain, wiser parts of

389

your brain and, yeah, just

390

Jessica: Yeah.

391

Josh: suck you in or like hook you.

392

Jessica: They hook you.

393

They hook me.

394

Yeah.

395

So got clear on all of that and

then just really started to reframe

396

dating as an opportunity to really

assess compatibility, right?

397

Yes, to find love, to experience

pleasure, to connect, but also like

398

I'm courting, you know, for me, I

was looking for a lifetime partner.

399

Yeah.

400

So to really treat dating as the

place to really figure out what

401

was possible with other people.

402

Yeah, and so I I did what I now

retroactively have put words to

403

as this process, this five step

process we're going to go through

404

in every dating action, right?

405

So on my profile, in messages, on

dates, three months into a relationship,

406

like everywhere I had a question.

407

about a relationship.

408

I ran a compatibility experiment and

409

use the information I was gathering

through those experiments to how to

410

proceed in different relationships.

411

And that often led to more quickly

moving through relationships actually.

412

In some ways, I think there

was a period of time where I

413

was like, is this a good thing?

414

Cause like, People are saying goodbye

sooner, or I'm saying goodbye sooner,

415

and ultimately it brought me to meet you,

416

Josh: Yep.

417

Jessica: And I found that for every

compatibility experiment that either

418

of us ran we got closer, and it became

more and more clear, so much so that,

419

you know, I think by the time we got

engaged, um, We were both so clear.

420

Josh: Yeah, there was no question,

I think in either of our minds or

421

hearts, about whether or not we were

the right person for each other.

422

Yeah.

423

Because we had so mindfully And

we've gone through the first year

424

of our dating experience doing

these compatibility experiments.

425

Jessica: Some of which, um, were very,

were, were actually, we co created.

426

Mm hmm.

427

Right?

428

We, one of the things that you and I did

is we went through the book Eight Dates.

429

By the Gottmans and I

think the Schwartzes.

430

We'll link to that.

431

Which are 8 structured dates talking

very directly about the 8 topics

432

or areas that couples tend to fight

about or tend to break up over.

433

Money, sex, conflict, dreams, family.

434

Yeah.

435

Yeah, so

436

I

437

believe in this process.

438

I'm about to peddle to you.

439

Josh: peddle to you.

440

It's good stuff,

441

Jessica: Yeah, and I think for me,

You know, the proof is in the pudding.

442

Like my experience living in our

relationship day to day compared to

443

this other relationship I mentioned,

like my nervous system is so much

444

more at ease, so much calmer.

445

I have so much more energy for

other things than I did when I

446

was on a rollercoaster every day.

447

Josh: Yeah.

448

Beautiful.

449

It sounds like it's time to

dive in to the five steps

450

Jessica: The five steps

451

Josh: of MACing.

452

Jessica: of marking.

453

Mindfully assessing compatibility.

454

Josh: Whee!

455

Jessica: Okay.

456

So in this five step process,

the first step is to clarify

457

your relationship vision.

458

Josh: Boom.

459

Jessica: So, you're going to be

developing a clear, up to date

460

version of what you're looking for

in a relationship and a partner.

461

And this is important, dear listener,

I want you to write it down.

462

Josh: it down.

463

Jessica: down, be able

to reference it easily.

464

We do have an episode on what to

look for in a long term relationship.

465

We also have a partner guide that

walks you through how to do this.

466

I, I want to encourage you to make sure

that your vision really acknowledges and

467

protects against your Achilles heels.

468

Okay, so those places where

you're attracted to something

469

that maybe isn't good for you,

but you're still compelled by it.

470

Josh: One of my Achilles heels

in dating was you know, my last

471

significant relationship before we met.

472

Again, high passion, high conflict.

473

Uh, and with someone who was not able to

meet me halfway around resolving ruptures

474

Jessica: Yes.

475

Josh: and look at their

side of the street.

476

And maybe the way of putting my Achilles

Heel around that was I was overtaking

477

responsibility and trying to twist

myself around them in order to make

478

myself into what I thought they wanted.

479

And so one of the things that I

added to my relationship vision after

480

that relationship was really someone

who, who could be an equal with me.

481

Could be 50 50, willing to look at their

side of the street so that it wasn't

482

just all about what I had done or not

done, but that we were co creating it.

483

That we were both taking

responsibility for, for what was

484

happening in our relationship.

485

Jessica: Yeah, and then

you didn't get that, and

486

Josh: That's a lie.

487

I found exactly what I was looking for.

488

Jessica: No, that's a perfect example

of an Achilles heel that you then turned

489

into, like, what's the opposite of that?

490

That's my vision.

491

Um, beautiful.

492

So, one last thing I'll say about

clarifying your relationship vision.

493

Keep in mind that this doesn't need

to be complete, and it is not fixed.

494

This is a living document,

and you'll see why.

495

Josh: Mm hmm.

496

Jessica: Okay, so Second step in

mindfully assessing compatibility is

497

to notice potential incompatibilities

in your relationship, okay?

498

So, taking note of the places where

you're unclear about whether you

499

fit together in a certain way, okay?

500

You can really uncover these.

501

These might be obvious to you, but you

can also uncover these sort of remaining

502

questions you have about the relationship.

503

Some of us go on autopilot and like

we're so in love we don't even really

504

look for the things that might not work.

505

But I want to encourage you to notice

places where you feel unsure about

506

how to proceed in the relationship.

507

Where you might notice yourself

falling into old patterns.

508

where you question whether the partner

is right for you in the long run

509

or there's just like something in

the dynamic that causes kind of an

510

unsettled feeling in your body or

unsettling thoughts in your mind.

511

Maybe you keep thinking about something

they did or they said, or like your

512

gut clenches when you think about a

particular aspect of the relationship.

513

So really honing in on

what feels unclear to me

514

Josh: me.

515

Jessica: Yeah

516

I'll give an example

from our relationship.

517

Josh: so

518

Jessica: So we, in our courtship,

we sent each other a lot of music.

519

And you sent me, uh, what was it?

520

Toxic?

521

Josh: By

522

Jessica: Britney Spears?

523

Josh: Hell yeah, I did.

524

Jessica: Speaking

525

of toxic.

526

Josh: You also sent

527

Jessica: You may have also

sent me, um, Pusha Girl.

528

Yeah.

529

Great, great

530

Josh: reference songs?

531

Yeah, referenced

532

Jessica: a lot of like drugs and

like love as, as an addiction, right?

533

And around the same time we had a

conversation and I had mentioned

534

that I had experienced somebody I

had dated before you who, like a

535

lot of other partners I had been

with, was doing the fast forwarding.

536

I was really rushing.

537

And you responded by

saying something like,

538

Oh, I've done that in relationships.

539

Josh: Which I have, dear listener.

540

I have.

541

I learned.

542

But I have.

543

Jessica: And you said it in a

way that felt like you were maybe

544

aligning with this person I had dated.

545

Rather than grokking what

that was like for me.

546

Josh: You were kind of like,

uh, that was terrible for me.

547

I'm really kind of wary

of doing that again.

548

And I was like, oh, I can relate to that.

549

Yeah,

550

Jessica: done that.

551

Been

552

Josh: that.

553

Been there.

554

Who hasn't really?

555

I mean, come on.

556

Yup, yup.

557

Jessica: So after that interaction

and those songs, I was like, Oh, I'm

558

feeling, I'm feeling uncomfortable.

559

Um, I'm maybe getting signals that

this person wants to do that again.

560

Josh: yeah.

561

Jessica: So that, that was one place

where I, I think it was both a combo

562

of like a somatic experience and

then also just noticing my thoughts

563

being like, well, that wasn't great.

564

Josh: Ah, uh oh.

565

Jessica: huh.

566

Uh huh.

567

Uh huh.

568

Uh

569

Josh: So that was kind of the worry about,

is this guy going to fast forward on me?

570

Uh, is he going to love bomb me?

571

Perfect.

572

And then maybe we'll circle back around

to that for how you address that with

573

Jessica: Yes, we will.

574

Excellent.

575

. Yes.

576

I mean, that brings us to the

third step, which is running

577

a compatibility experiment.

578

So that's doing something, saying

something that will allow you to

579

gather information about the thing

you're feeling uncertain about.

580

Okay, so, the compatibility experiment

I ran, In response to that kind of

581

like uncomfortable feeling I was having

in our relationship, I decided I was

582

just going to talk with you about it.

583

Basically, I was going to

share my background, um,

584

share.

585

There was more to the picture

that I've already described.

586

I have, I've had traumas, including, uh,

experience being stalked earlier in my

587

life, in addition to a pattern of people,

including early caregivers, doing the

588

kind of love bomb y, fast forward y thing.

589

So this is a topic that

has a lot of charge for me.

590

So for me, the compatibility

experiment was sharing that history.

591

with you, which was very scary because

I didn't know if you were going to

592

align with the people who had fast

forwarded, who had stalked, if you

593

were going to do the same thing

you had done in that conversation.

594

And I mean, I very distinctly

remember the conversation.

595

I don't know if you do.

596

We were at a really beautiful outlook

and I shared with you and I, I

597

Josh: We were sitting on a picnic

blanket up on a big hill after a hike.

598

Jessica: that's right.

599

That's right.

600

Yeah.

601

So, so notice like I chose to

still spend time with you, right?

602

I said yes to another date, but

I also went in very intentionally

603

knowing we're going to have this

conversation, um, and I think I cried.

604

I think I got teary sharing about my,

my history, um, and the fears I was

605

having, and you spoke to me gently, you

know, held me empathized, validated, and

606

I think also, like, repaired, repaired

that moment from the past conversation,

607

where you had aligned more with.

608

The person I had dated

who had fast forwarded.

609

And you clarified that you're

not interested in doing that.

610

And I felt so much more reassured.

611

And it was a combination of things, right?

612

It was, It wasn't just you saying, oh no,

I don't want that thing you're afraid of.

613

It was how you showed up

in the conversation, right?

614

The empathy, which felt deeply genuine.

615

It was your ability to take responsibility

for the myth in the previous conversation.

616

And, I think, almost more importantly,

it was everything you did after that.

617

to match, to your

behaviors match your words.

618

Because every place where I asked to

slow down, you were very respectful of.

619

Josh: I'm pretty sure that's the

conversation correct me if I'm wrong

620

about this, but I think that's the

conversation where I was like, Oh, well,

621

let's, let's start with small promises.

622

Jessica: Yeah.

623

Yeah.

624

Yeah.

625

So, dear listener, we've talked about

small promises maybe, um, on an early

626

episode, and It was such a great way

to build trust with me because I had

627

had an experience of big promises.

628

Like in that other relationship

I mentioned, you know, we're

629

going to be together forever.

630

You know, hearing that sort

of thing pretty quickly.

631

But for you, it was small promises.

632

I'm going to tell you when I'm

going to show up and I'm actually

633

going to show up at that time.

634

Little things.

635

yeah,

636

So with running compatibility

experiments, keep in mind.

637

You're gonna choose something to say or

do with your partner, and then you're

638

gonna mindfully observe their responses.

639

Not just what they say,

but how they say it.

640

You're gonna notice, can you co regulate?

641

Can you dance together in a way that is,

leaves you feeling calm and cared for?

642

And you're just gonna notice how you feel.

643

How do I feel as this is going on?

644

I felt very soothed in that moment.

645

Josh: And I felt closer to you

after that, 'cause you, you were

646

letting me in, in a deeper way.

647

Mm-Hmm.

648

And obviously I, I would imagine that

if I had not responded in that way.

649

You probably would have been done.

650

It probably would have been,

okay, that's, that's a sign.

651

This isn't the right fit.

652

But because you took that

risk and did, open up to me

653

further, it brought me closer.

654

Because I was like, yeah, I don't,

I don't want to do that thing.

655

I don't want to, part of my

learning was, that doesn't work.

656

That kind of fast forward, and that kind

of like, jumping into things too quickly.

657

And so it was like, oh great, we're

actually really aligned on this.

658

We're actually looking

for the same thing here.

659

This is perfect.

660

Jessica: It's almost like I ran your

compatibility experiment for you.

661

Yeah.

662

Yeah.

663

I think, I think that's the thing

about compatibility experiments

664

versus unconscious tasks, which,

you know, we'll go into in a bit.

665

I think compatibility experiments

are for the benefit of both people.

666

They really allow both people

to clarify what is possible.

667

Okay, so you've run your compatibility

experiment and then step four

668

in this process is to really

assess the data you collected.

669

Okay.

670

So that means taking time away from

your love interest to really think

671

about The experiment, how it went,

maybe you write, maybe you meditate.

672

So, you know, I don't remember exactly

what it did, but at that time I had asked

673

for, I think, I wasn't wanting to go on

dates more frequently than like once a

674

week, I think was about where we were.

675

And I would take that week to write

in my journal and talk to my therapist

676

and talk to my friends and really

sit with like, okay, how did that go?

677

So when you assess the data you collect,

I do really recommend both doing it

678

alone and with a loved one because I do

think that you're going to find on your

679

own, you might be able to feel and think

things that you can't with another person.

680

And the same is true with a person, right?

681

And they may have a perspective for you.

682

That's really important.

683

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

684

And I, I wanna highlight what

you're naming about doing it.

685

with time away from your love interest.

686

Jessica: Mm

687

Josh: Because this is one of the things

that I both really admired about what

688

you did in our early dating, taking

that time to give yourself a chance

689

to reflect and come back to yourself.

690

And I think it's really hard to do

for folks in early dating with someone

691

that you're really excited about.

692

It's very natural.

693

You want to spend a lot of time with them.

694

You want to dive in.

695

You want to get to know them better.

696

Uh, that's like the natural

love chemicals, bonding

697

chemicals that happen for us.

698

And so that time apart really gives

your system a chance to detox a little

699

bit from the, the brain chemicals that

are firing on all cylinders, trying

700

to get you to make babies so that you

can see a little bit more clearly.

701

Jessica: Yeah, well, I think you're,

you're naming something I wanted to point

702

out which is assessing compatibility

mindfully is very closely entwined

703

with the pacing, um, the pacing,

the pacing meaning my, my body of

704

work around pacing we'll link to the

episode and, and blog post on that.

705

You're going to need to, as you're

saying, leave enough space for

706

you to come back to yourself to

really assess what's happening.

707

Yeah.

708

And I also want to highlight

I'm using kind of like

709

scientific language here, right?

710

Experiments assessments, and this isn't

a purely left brain process, right?

711

Like in that time, in between our dates,

I wasn't just like making a list of

712

like how I responded, how he responded,

and was this good, and was this bad?

713

I was like in my body.

714

I was like feeling and allowing

younger, more vulnerable

715

parts of me to come up, right?

716

There's, there's a

holistic aspect to this.

717

I want to just make sure you

remembered your listener to

718

both think and feel in this

719

process.

720

Josh: process.

721

Yeah.

722

Jessica: Okay,

723

And then step five, you've done

your assessing of the data.

724

Step five is to update your vision.

725

Okay.

726

So there's two parts to this.

727

You're going to with your new

understanding of what's possible in

728

your connection with your love interest,

you're going to update Whether or

729

not this is a romantic connection

worth pursuing, and to what degree.

730

So, I took from our conversation, this

is a man that I can be vulnerable with,

731

and who will respect my boundaries.

732

And that moved me more towards

Let's spend time together.

733

Let's build a partnership.

734

If you had responded differently,

like you said, there's a very good

735

chance I was going to be like,

736

P.

737

A.

738

C.

739

Josh: be like,

740

Jessica: You're cute, but P.

741

Josh: hey!

742

Jessica: C.

743

E.

744

So that's, that's the

specific relationship update.

745

Okay.

746

And you're also going to update your

vision of what you're looking for.

747

So if in that experiment you

realized, Oh wow, I really need.

748

A man who can do small promises

that needs to go into your vision.

749

Josh: future.

750

Jessica: I really need a man

who or a woman who can take

751

responsibility for her side of things.

752

Update your vision.

753

And then you get to start all over again.

754

Yeah.

755

Josh: Oh, beautiful.

756

I love this so much.

757

So that's the five step process

758

Jessica: That is it.

759

Josh: mindfully assess compatibility.

760

Jessica: Mm-Hmm.

761

Josh: And I'll just do

a quick recap, right?

762

We've got vision.

763

What's your relationship vision?

764

Clarify that.

765

What are you looking for in

a relationship and a partner?

766

And then notice places with the person

that you're currently with, dating, etc.

767

Incompatibilities, or potential

incompatibilities, places where

768

you're like, I don't know about that,

I don't know how I feel about that.

769

Then you run a compatibility experiment,

assess the data, how do you, how do you

770

feel, how did they respond what are your

thoughts about it, what are you feeling

771

about it, and then updating your vision.

772

Both kind of updating, is this

the right relationship for me?

773

Is this Green flag, let's keep going.

774

Or is this a nope, not the right thing?

775

Uh, or is there more data needed

is maybe a part of that as well.

776

Right?

777

There's somewhat further compatibility,

experiment to run as well as

778

updating your vision for your

ideal relationship and partnership

779

Jessica: Yeah.

780

And you'll notice these steps can be,

you know, I was making a joke earlier.

781

You start all over again.

782

That's only kind of a joke, right?

783

Like if you are really courting

to find somebody long term, my

784

experience was I just kept running

experiments until it became clear.

785

Josh: I mean.

786

I don't even know if it's possible

to estimate the number of experiments

787

that you ran during our courtship,

but I would imagine it was a

788

Jessica: it was a lot.

789

Yeah.

790

Yeah.

791

Josh: yeah, because there are a

lot of things to check out, right?

792

It's, it's very hard to know after

a week of dating somebody, uh, or

793

even a month of dating somebody,

if they are your forever person.

794

So, it makes sense that there

would be a lot of things that you

795

might be exploring with a person.

796

Jessica: Yeah, and especially if

you are a trauma survivor, if you've

797

been in unhealthy relationships,

you're probably going to want to

798

check more out than the average Jane.

799

Josh: Is this a good time to give some

more examples of what you've done?

800

Compatible experiments, might look

801

Jessica: Indeed it is.

802

Hi.

803

Yes, so.

804

Compatibility experiments.

805

my definition for this is an

interaction with a love interest that

806

is intentionally designed to explore the

viability of your relationship, okay?

807

So I've got 11 types.

808

One type are requests.

809

Josh: Just like, straight

up, here's what I'd like.

810

Jessica: Yeah, so like, I don't drink.

811

Can we meet at a tea house instead

of a wine bar for our date?

812

Or, would you mind calling me tomorrow?

813

I'd love to hear your voice.

814

Okay.

815

Uh, second kind of experiments,

vulnerable self disclosure.

816

So like what I shared in my, um, example.

817

Or sharing feelings of

love for your partner.

818

Initiating touch or sex.

819

these are all forms of

vulnerable self disclosure.

820

discussions about relationship visions.

821

So directly and honestly sharing

what you're looking for in a

822

relationship or asking your partner

about their relationship goals.

823

Josh: Great.

824

Jessica: Fourth type boundaries,

boundary setting, saying no to a kiss

825

on a first date, sharing, you aren't

available to text during work hours.

826

Number five quality time

in an intimate setting.

827

Okay.

828

So this is like dates, but

also like something like making

829

them dinner at your house.

830

When we're in a more protected

environment, engaging in more intimate

831

practices, we get to get more information

than just sitting across from somebody

832

at a, a wine bar or a tea house.

833

Josh: Interesting.

834

Yeah, is there a distinction

between, because in some ways

835

it just sounds like a date,

836

Jessica: For sure.

837

Josh: right?

838

What makes it a compatibility experiment?

839

Is it just like we are maybe we're

doing something that we haven't done

840

before together, like we're, you know,

transitioning from, you know, Eating

841

out at, restaurants to, I'm making

dinner at my house for the first time.

842

It's a deepening level of vulnerability

and intimacy and that naturally

843

kind of may show different behaviors

or different ways of relating.

844

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

845

I mean, here's the thing.

846

We could consider absolutely everything

in dating a compatibility experiment.

847

Like, dating is a

compatibility experiment.

848

Josh: Dating is one big

compatibility, or many tiny,

849

Jessica: yeah.

850

Um, so I think what, what makes this a

compatibility experiment is, If you're

851

intentionally choosing it in order to

learn something more about that person.

852

Like, I think it's pretty common.

853

I think this is actually a very,

like, standard compatibility

854

experiment a lot of people engage in.

855

Like, oh, we're going to

actually be together in a private

856

setting for the third date and

we'll see what happens, right?

857

Like, a lot of people are aware, like,

more touch is going to happen, probably.

858

You're going to have more

intimate conversations.

859

Um, so, yeah, it's a way to gather

information about that person.

860

the more

861

private aspects of them

and your relationship.

862

Josh: Yeah, and I imagine many

of us don't do that mindfully.

863

Right, and so part of what makes it

a compatibility experiment in this

864

framework is bringing the mindfulness

to it, noticing how do you feel, how

865

do they respond, how are they, how

are you together in that setting,

866

and kind of using that to really

understand is this a good fit or

867

Jessica: absolutely.

868

Yep.

869

You got

870

Josh: beautiful.

871

Jessica: Okay.

872

Number six, uh, another type

of compatibility experiment are

873

values oriented conversation,

conversations or conversation starters.

874

So , dear listener, you may

know about the 36 questions.

875

We'll link to a blog article we have

about what we call heart opening

876

questions that includes the 36 questions.

877

And that's just sort of a, uh, Really

sweet set of questions that allows you

878

to really dig in deep with somebody.

879

And then the eight dates, that

book we mentioned earlier.

880

Structured conversations

about a lot of hot topics.

881

Josh: Uh huh.

882

Uh Yeah, and so you might be inviting

some of these things, kind of like the

883

example we shared earlier in the episode.

884

It's kind of an invitation for deepening

vulnerability, and how do they respond?

885

Are they available for that?

886

Are they not interested in that?

887

Do they criticize you

for asking about that?

888

Right, all the good information.

889

Jessica: Right.

890

Well, and so you're pointing to

the how they respond, which is very

891

important and also the content of

892

Josh: For sure,

893

Jessica: is important.

894

Um, you know, I think you and I,

when we went through the eight dates

895

process, it's like a lot of the

things we were saying, not just how

896

we were saying them were aligned in

terms of what we're dreaming about

897

or how we want to be in relationship.

898

Josh: Yep, absolutely.

899

Jessica: Another type of compatibility

experiment are adventures requiring

900

cooperation and stress management.

901

So things like traveling

together, going on a

902

Josh: Another type

903

Jessica: another type are relationship

vision related experiences.

904

Okay.

905

So,

906

Josh: break that down for me.

907

Jessica: let's say you want kids, you want

to know whether or not you're compatible

908

with Co parenting with that person.

909

You might try babysitting together.

910

example I think we shared

in a different episode.

911

Or if you're like really looking for

an outdoor adventure buddy, maybe

912

you plan a backpacking trip together.

913

Josh: Mm-Hmm.

914

Jessica: Number nine, compatibility

experiment type, vetting.

915

So bringing them to meet your loved ones.

916

Okay, maybe you invite them to

Thanksgiving at your parents house

917

or your best friend's birthday party.

918

I really recommend, this is

something from Stan Hacken's work.

919

And not just asking your friends

afterwards whether they liked

920

your partner, but whether they

liked who you were with your

921

Josh: partner.

922

Jessica: Number 10, we've

923

mentioned a couple times, pacing.

924

Josh: So that, might be like, uh,

hey, I want to, want to wait a

925

week between dates to start out.

926

Yep.

927

That feels like a good pace to me.

928

Jessica: Yeah, or speeding up the pace.

929

Like, one that I think, You deal or

listener may already be doing is you match

930

with somebody, they message and they just

keep messaging and they don't mention a

931

date.

932

You mention the date, right?

933

Time to speed up that pace.

934

That's a great way to tell whether

or not somebody is actually

935

available for a relationship.

936

And then lastly, This one's

kind of a complex one.

937

Compatibility experiment

could be not initiating.

938

Josh: not initiating.

939

Jessica: initiating.

940

So, what I mean by this is holding

off on asking for more closeness

941

so as to assess reciprocity.

942

Josh: right.

943

Are they equally engaged in being

close with you or is it kind

944

of one sided and you're the one

initiating most of the closeness?

945

Jessica: You got it.

946

So you've asked them

out on a couple dates.

947

Maybe you hold off on suggesting a third.

948

I want to emphasize here, this

is not pretending to be aloof,

949

so you appear more attractive.

950

Josh: Good, good.

951

Uh, distinction here.

952

Jessica: This is also not protest

behavior, meaning distancing as an

953

indirect message about how unhappy

you are that they have not asked you

954

out.

955

This is really something that should

be motivated by your wise mind as a

956

way to really get clear data about

what the balance will be like if

957

you continue this relationship.

958

Yeah, I have more I could say

about that, but does it feel like

959

we've, uh, sufficiently defended

that one from misunderstanding?

960

Very good.

961

Josh: Good stuff.

962

Jessica: Yeah?

963

Josh: Yeah.

964

Yeah.

965

I mean, I think part of what I love

about this and what I hope our, our

966

dear listener can take from this is this

is a wonderful way to practice secure

967

functioning relationship skills in every

relationship that you're in, whether

968

or not it is your long term partner.

969

Jessica: Yes.

970

Josh: Because all of these things

are things that are important in

971

a long term relationship, right?

972

Asking for what you need and want setting

important boundaries communicating really

973

clearly with your partner you know,

seeing are they able to meet you 50 50.

974

Are you just on the same page about

what you want in a relationship,

975

in your lives together?

976

And in mindfully finding these

ways to explore, is this person

977

the right person for you?

978

fit.

979

Are we the right fit for each other?

980

You're going to get to learn

more quickly who's the right fit.

981

What's a possibility worth exploring

further when you get a positive result?

982

And which ones to to end more quickly

983

Jessica: Right.

984

Josh: So I love this.

985

I love that you have put some time into

articulating this because I don't hear a

986

lot of people talking about this in this

987

Jessica: the community.

988

Josh: And I think it's so

needed for how do we date well.

989

Jessica: do we help.

990

Yeah.

991

Well, thank you for, thank you

for being the container in this

992

conversation for a body of work

that you helped me develop, really.

993

Josh: My joy.

994

It's worked out well for me, so

I'm happy to be the beneficiary

995

Jessica: of it.

996

Is there anything No,

997

Josh: well, that's all for today.

998

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

999

this episode at RelationshipCenter.

00:51:37,964 --> 00:51:39,404

com slash podcast.

00:51:39,809 --> 00:51:42,659

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

00:51:42,659 --> 00:51:44,399

podcast at relationshipcenter.

00:51:44,419 --> 00:51:44,859

com.

00:51:45,279 --> 00:51:46,789

We love hearing from you.

00:51:46,954 --> 00:51:49,364

Josh: If you'd like to work with

one of the talented clinicians on

00:51:49,364 --> 00:51:51,434

our team, go to RelationshipCenter.

00:51:51,434 --> 00:51:54,024

com to apply for a free

30 minute consultation.

00:51:54,429 --> 00:51:57,319

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

00:51:57,329 --> 00:51:58,919

content at relationshipcenter.

00:51:58,949 --> 00:52:00,549

com slash newsletter.

00:52:00,594 --> 00:52:02,334

Josh: And if something in

this episode touched you, will

00:52:02,334 --> 00:52:03,444

you share it with a friend?

00:52:03,509 --> 00:52:05,209

that helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

00:52:05,854 --> 00:52:08,834

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

00:52:08,844 --> 00:52:10,924

wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:52:11,564 --> 00:52:14,604

Be sure to hit subscribe while you're

there so you never miss an episode.

00:52:14,614 --> 00:52:22,479

Josh: there so you never miss an episode.

00:52:35,470 --> 00:52:40,190

Peace out, We are seeing if we

can hear each other and hear the

00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:43,330

sounds in the, that we're making

with our mouths in the computer.

00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,940

And do they make noise and make pretty

squiggles on the computer screen?

00:52:47,290 --> 00:52:48,430

And now Jessica will talk.

00:52:48,820 --> 00:52:53,290

Jessica: I will make the pretty

squiggles on the screen that I

00:52:53,310 --> 00:52:55,290

cannot see, only Josh can see.

00:52:56,090 --> 00:53:01,820

So, I do not know what this artistry

looks like, but I trust that it

00:53:01,820 --> 00:53:05,745

is beautiful, because Josh said

so, and he is not a lie lie face.

00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:07,310

He is

00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:09,900

Josh: And scene.