On the eve of the Sales Management Association's annual Sales Force Productivity Summit right here in the ATL at Emory University (NEXT week! March 12-13th ...use promo code TAGFAM for nearly half off at salesmanagement.org) SMA founder and commander-in-chief @Bob Kelly joins me to discuss the past, present and future of enablement through the lens of a globally recognized ambassador of Sales Management.
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Let's #ElevateEnablement TOGETHER!
Erich
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to ISE Inside Sales Enablement,
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:Season 3, Enablement History.
3
:And today, I'm excited to have
in the Orchestrate Sales Studio,
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:a man that knows a lot about the
past, present, and future of sales.
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:With a side of sales enablement,
we're going to see what he has to say.
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:, Mr.
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:Bob Kelly, who is the founder
and chairman going since:
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:the Sales Management Association,
the only global cross industry
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:professional association for managers.
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:focused in sales force
effectiveness, . He's also an
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:adjunct faculty of the Goizueta.
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:I've never had to say that loud.
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:Oh, how about
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:Bob Kelly: Pretty good.
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:Erich Starrett: All right.
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:Business school right here at Emory
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:Bob Kelly: University here in Atlanta.
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:Goizueta was Roberto Goizueta.
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:He was CEO of the Coca
Cola company in the 80s.
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:Erich Starrett: there we go.
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:And there's some history, , Coca
Cola here in Atlanta.
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:I believe in fact, there's about to
be history made , on March 12th and
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:13th the 2024 Salesforce productivity
event will be hosted on that very
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:same Emory campus by Bob himself.
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:And I'm sure we'll be
hearing more about that.
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:Bob, anything else I missed
out in the intro before we
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:dive into a question or two?
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:Bob Kelly: Thanks for
plugging the conference.
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:It's March 12th and 13th.
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:So the business school is hosting
it for us and we normally have
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:an event at least once a year.
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:This is one of the first times
we've done that in the spring.
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:So hope you can join for that.
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:I would also just let your audience
know they can learn more about
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:the conference from our website.
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:Salesmanagement.
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:org.
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:And you can learn about
the conference there
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:Erich Starrett: outstanding.
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:And don't worry, folks we'll
circle back and give that to you
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:again at the end if you missed it.
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:So for now, Bob , sales enablement.
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:, fiercely curious.
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:When did you first hear those two words?
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:2010.
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:We're going back to , on my books,
the society itself didn't come into
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:being really until 2016, but the
words have been around for a minute.
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:When did you first hear them?
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:What did they mean to you?
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:What do they mean to you?
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:Bob Kelly: where was I when
I heard those magic words?
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:That's what you want to know.
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:It's difficult to understand,,
when a new term comes along.
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:Just how bad ish or long live it'll be.
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:So I do have a little bit of history
about this term sales enablement, and
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:this comes from a conversation I had a
few years ago with the person who I
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:would call the Abner Doubleday of sales
enablement, and that's John Aiello at the
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:time he was at a firm called Savo Group.
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:Savo Group was a firm really at the
headwaters of this idea, sales enablement.
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:John and his partner Drew Larsen.
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:Now this is in the late 90s, early aughts.
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:They were running a company that was
essentially doing marketing consulting
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:for B2B sales organizations these
guys are really good marketers.
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:They were creating really good content
and they were a little frustrated
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:that it was sometimes difficult
for salespeople to find this stuff.
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:And at the time that they'd created
a system for distributing content,
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:they call it sales asset management.
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:This is the precursor this is the
bronze age equivalent sales enablement.
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:Erich Starrett: Yeah.
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:I think Craig was calling
it that at the same time.
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:Bob Kelly: yeah, it's good that you
mentioned him because his firm iCentera
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:was also active around the same time.
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:In fact, Aiello acknowledges that.
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:The folks at iCentera may have also
been using this term, but they got
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:some funding in 2004, raised some
capital, and coincident with that,
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:they decided they need a more, they
needed a more highfalutin name for
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:this stuff than Sales Asset Management,
and they adopted the moniker.
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:sales enablement at that time.
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:I'll give you some perspective on
what I thought that was . It was
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:chiefly a solution for marketing.
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:The people that bought sales
enablement were marketing.
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:It was mostly solving a marketing problem.
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:That problem was Marketing was creating
content and sales may not have really
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:been making good use of that content.
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:So this solved a problem for marketing
that was related to the sales
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:organization's uncertain agency.
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:We can't really control what the
sales force is doing with our stuff.
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:We think a lot of it is going to waste.
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:Sales enablement was grounded in
this distribution problem, getting
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:content where it needs to be.
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:This is a big problem, especially in large
companies with many, thousands of products
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:those were the humble roots of
sales enablement, as I recall.
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:And that was in the early 2000s.
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:And then since then, I think it's
come to mean a little bit more.
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:Erich Starrett: So then from there, what
about the society, the sales enablement
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:society, and maybe even in the interim?
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:I always go back to the 2008 is to me
the middle when Scott Santucci and in
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:fact, we just spoke with Brian Lambert.
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:That episode will be
coming out soon as well.
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:I think Scott was the guy definitely put
the stake in the ground over at Forrester
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:and then Brian was his first hire.
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:And that clearly is our legacy
here at Orchestrate Sales.
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:Brian and I started the site.
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:But was there a bump in there when you
went, Oh, this thing's become official?
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:Bob Kelly: Yeah.
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:. I remember when the sales enablement
society came along, I always found it.
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:You know a little intimidating.
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:I'm not really the society type I
you know, I assumed you guys were
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:like eating like cucumber sandwiches,
and having high tea over there
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:Erich Starrett: Pinky's in the air.
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:Love
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:Bob Kelly: so I was a little put off
by that, but I think you know, my my
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:General impression of these kinds of
organizations is that they tend to have
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:a center of gravity one of two kinds I
mean they're either focused on creating
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:content and new practices they're
create, they're focused on networking
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:and the more social elements that is
getting people together, collaboration
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:fraternization within the industry.
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:And I think from what I've, I
know the society has been really
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:good at that second thing.
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:Erich Starrett: From a involvement
perspective, what element does
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:enablement play in your business?
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:Bob Kelly: Yeah, no it's an
important topic for our audience.
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:Our audience is a little more I guess
general their interests are a little
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:broader than sales enablement, but sales
enablement is certainly or, the kind of.
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:Associated issues of, learning
and development or content
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:management are things that are
relevant to our audience for sure.
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:We tend to be more broadly
sales effectiveness focused,
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:or sales management focused.
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:but we have sponsors in our
organization we call them underwriters.
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:They sometimes co create content with us.
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:And we've had over the years.
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:a number of vendors in this space,
including the the folks at Brain
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:Shark, for example, for a long time,
or High Spot, or Seismic I so we've
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:participated in the, in those ways,
learning what those solution providers
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:have to say sometimes to our audience.
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:And also, we do our own research
in areas related to what you
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:guys call sales enablement and,
try to stay current in that way.
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:Erich Starrett: I spent a little
bit of time on the site, and I was
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:very pleased to see that you do
in fact have a sales enablement
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:button as a subset of your search.
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:I think it was 12 or 15 pages of content
I'd love to hear more of a peek behind
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:the curtain, and again, for the benefit
of the audience, what might the value be
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:of being a member if you are an enabler?
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:Of joining officially becoming
a member of your site and
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:coming out to the conference?
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:Bob Kelly: Sure.
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:That's a nice question to ask.
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:Thank you for thinking
about it in that way.
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:We are called the Sales
Management Association.
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:We try to take the most broad approach
possible for getting at the issues
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:relevant to running the sales force.
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:My appeal to a lot of people who have
a niche focus IN sales support or
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:helping sales forces is to learn about
the bigger, broader issues affecting
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:sales leadership, sales governance.
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:And I think this helps us greatly in
the mission to support the Salesforce.
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:Sales organizations and sales leaders have
to rely on a lot of corporate functions
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:that don't always have the content domain
expertise around sales and sometimes
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:simply don't understand the peculiar
issues that affect the sales organization.
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:So for sales enablement folks, especially
those that might be creating training or.
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:Working on collateral it's important to
understand what those big issues are.
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:We try to, put our arms around a very
diverse membership with that basic
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:proposition, learn about the big
ideas and get a broad understanding.
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:A liberal arts education about
what it means to work and to
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:manage the sales function.
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:,
there are a lot of issues confronting the sales force right now.
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:One of them is the enormous
amount of change happening.
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:How do organizations build
adaptiveness into their capabilities?
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:Do we have the, the management
competency, for example, to
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:lead change in the organization?
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:Do we have the ability to change and adapt
sales process or value propositions in
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:a way that can effectively adapt when
buying preferences change or markets
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:change or the stuff we sell changes.
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:These are really big issues that matter
a great deal to sales leaders right now.
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:I think an enablement person has to be.
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:on the very leading edge of how do
we help our organizations adapt.
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:Also, what it means to help
people learn and develop in
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:sales organizations is changing.
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:Enablement as a function, has led the
way in that area in many respects.
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:Erich Starrett: If we go back to
the founding of the sales enablement
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:society, they talked about there
being 4 flavors of enablement,
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:Bob Kelly: I think all
those areas are important.
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:, the danger is getting
hung up on the semantics
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:when I hear that four part charter
charter of sales enablement, the
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:question that occurs to me is.
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:Is there anything that is not included
in that definition of sales enablement?
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:And I really don't think there is.
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:So this is a problem.
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:A sales leader will look at this
maybe in the context of we've got
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:to double down on sales enablement.
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:And they'll say, first of all,
what is this word enablement?
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:Is that a word?
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:I don't know about this.
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:What is it specifically?
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:And is there a direct connection between
The investments and activities of
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:people in this area and their expected
impact in the business in a direct way.
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:So that's a criticism of sales
enablement that I have that its too
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:overreaching in its scope and definition.
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:Only because it's poorly defined
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:.
Erich Starrett: I'm part of the problem.
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:Here's what I mean by that is that
what enablement really has gravitated
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:toward is the talent portion of that.
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:Going back to, , the roots of
the sales enablement society.
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:Their vision for the role was much broader
and it included all of those areas.
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:There are still some of us speaking
that language, the orchestrating a
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:cross functional business within a
business Position number two was that
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:it needed to be chartered and run that
way , but what most folks gravitated
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:towards was really the training And
the enablement of the sales force, but
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:not getting into those other areas.
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:So there is a little bit of attention
even in the community where folks like
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:me are going man There's still this huge
opportunity To orchestrate a dotted line.
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:That's important.
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:Cross functional business within
a business that is metrics driven.
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:Starting with a charter and strategy
that is metrics based that is founded
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:in dials that you can watch, that
the executive team is in alignment
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:with , and almost more importantly,
that are leading with the value that
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:your company can bring to that client.
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:And as those dials are moving internally
towards delivering that value, the dials
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:are moving externally because you're
actually providing value to the client.
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:And you've aligned that
revenue engine, right?
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:So what I talk about and i'm
excited about is the idea of
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:an orchestrated revenue engine.
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:Is that 100 enablement?
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:No, it's a cross functional dotted line.
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:And in fact, it might be With a CRO, CMO,
Chief Strategy, or Chief Sales Officer,
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:either of the CSOs at the head of that.
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:I love that you called that out,
and I hold myself accountable
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:to being part of the problem.
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:But to your point , there needs
to be that definition, there needs
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:to be that stake in the ground.
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:So thank you for pointing all of that out.
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:What I would like to turn back to you and
say is, So Bob, what does good look like?
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:Is there room for sales enablement?
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:And what would that look like?
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:Bob Kelly: honestly, despite, my sort of
quibbles with the name and everything.
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:I don't really care what you call it.
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:I think let's get down to the essential
value that the idea brings to the table
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:I would put that in two broad categories.
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:One is the, the efficient distribution
of content, the collateral, et
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:cetera, the distribution problem.
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:I think the technology associated
with sales enablement can
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:help this solve this problem.
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:Helping people find things,
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:also getting things to
people, which is different.
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:It's more pushing as opposed to asking
people to pull it when they need it.
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:It's getting things to people in context,
where when and where they need it.
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:The more important thing
is developing salespeople.
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:We use this term now, development,
and we use it because we
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:resist the term training.
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:It's not as a great term.
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:Training now brings to mind,
like jamming people in a room and
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:making them listen to a lecture.
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:I'm a journeyman educator too.
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:So , it's interesting to me the
similarities in, , selling and , teaching.
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:There.
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:equally challenging, I think.
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:,
we now know the limitations of simply trying to fill people up with knowledge.
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:We don't do this anymore.
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:, and in education, by the way, we call
this flipping the classroom, where you
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:get people to learn stuff on their own,
and then you bring them together to solve
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:problems in the classroom as a, give them
something to do that they're on the hook
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:for, that they can't do unless they ask
questions and make them learn that way.
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:Developing salespeople, it's very similar.
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:We can give them this information.
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:We can even push it out
to them when they need it.
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:But to really have them develop skills
and applied knowledge, we have to
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:observe them and we have to coach them.
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:And this means, , objectively looking
at them, watching them, making judgments
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:about them diagnosing root cause issues
associated with shortcomings and how
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:they're performing, having assignments
and things we can prescribe to them
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:to help them improve, judging that
improvement, monitoring that, and doing
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:all this in a way that is collaborative
and customized to that person.
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:And this is what is ideally done,
not by sales enablement, but by
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:sales management who has authority
and who has accountability for
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:the performance of that person
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:Not always.
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:In fact, it's a problem for the firm.
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:It's not a sales enablement
or sales management problem.
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:, so I see sales enablements
role is supporting that
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:essential management function.
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:I would like to see, sales
enablement at making better
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:managers that should be the charter.
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:Change it to something like that.
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:, we're going to make management
better at developing salespeople.
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:Erich Starrett: Bob in my observation
One of the biggest gaps has been that
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:sales managers a lot of times are
brought up into that role from an
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:individual contributor, and I just
heard you say that sales enablement.
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:1 of the biggest opportunities is
exactly that to close that gap.
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:What is being done right in that respect?
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:And what could sales
enablement be doing better?
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:If that is the sweet
spot of sales enablement.
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:Bob Kelly: Yeah.
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:So that's a great question.
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:one of the things that I've seen
that is really effective is to
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:rotate management candidates in and
out of sales effectiveness roles.
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:Whatever those may be called.
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:So you might have a, first line sales
manager whose promotion and a larger
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:company is into sales operations, where
they learn about process and, back office
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:technology issues and incentive comp
design and performance management issues.
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:Or you might rotate them into a
training role or sales enablement
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:role where they're, actually,
accountable for those responsibilities.
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:That's one idea.
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:Rotate people around, get them experience
in doing some of these different jobs.
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:In general, though, I think something
at a macroeconomic level is happening
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:in sales organizations that makes it
more important to develop salespeople.
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:Maybe it's a few things happening.
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:One of them is that the traditional
function of sales management, a
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:nanny function, of supervising,
making sure people are doing the
308
:right things in the right spots, it's
largely a problem we automate now.
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:So this has at least in theory,
freed up some capacity to focus on
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:more substantive things like making
the sales organization better.
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:Another maybe bigger issue is that
this is labor market economics.
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:A lot is being made right now
of layoffs in the tech industry.
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:But if you look at the overall economy
and across all sectors, employment
314
:is actually very robust and many
organizations are having trouble
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:holding on to the best salespeople
and attracting the good new talent
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:One way they do this is with places
that are nice places to work in and so
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:companies that develop people are better
places to work and a more discriminating
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:labor pool can make judgments.
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:Based on that criteria, they
can say, I don't have to take
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:the first job that comes along.
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:I'd like to work at a place.
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:Where I'm going to get better
and more marketable in the role.
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:And we see that, developing people
and creating nice places to work for
324
:salespeople is an emerging vector of
competitiveness for sales organizations,
325
:and they're thinking more about it.
326
:Layer on top of that, the issue of
the sales organization has to change
327
:our research shows on average, large
sales forces reorganize every three years.
328
:And often that's in response to this
fundamental need to change how the
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:sales organization delivers value.
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:And so we have to be adaptable
and we also have to make people
331
:better in our organization.
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:So this idea of sales enablement's
role in helping develop people, I
333
:think is more important than ever.
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:And maybe more strategic than ever.
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:Erich Starrett: Bob, I feel like
we've done a really good job covering
336
:enablement history and we talked
a good amount about the present.
337
:I know with your event coming up next
month in your present, you're thinking a
338
:good bit about the future, that event and.
339
:I can only assume some of those
topics are about the future of sales,
340
:the future of sales management.
341
:Can we maybe land on telling us what
folks can expect to learn about how they
342
:can be in the present here in Atlanta
at that event and learn about the
343
:future and drive additional productivity
in themselves and their teams.
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:Bob Kelly: Yeah.
345
:Happy to.
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:So there'll be four major tracks.
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:The first is a sort of general and it
is sales leadership's new priorities.
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:This is an opportunity to acknowledge
those things that we think are emerging
349
:areas of importance for leadership.
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:Another is, we're calling it Bold
Futures in Sales Technology, and this
351
:is really an opportunity to acknowledge
some of the hand wringing and pearl
352
:clutching around AI, especially
the generative language based AI.
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:Then we'll have two other sections.
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:One is competing on sales talent.
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:This is a place to talk about the
challenges that many organizations are
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:having in attracting new salespeople
at, in certain sectors and also
357
:holding on to, the top sales talent,
which is, under siege in many firms.
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:, fourthly, we'll talk about transformation.
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:Managing really a better
term is leading change.
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:In sales organizations, what's
management's role in that?
361
:Where are the areas, sales organizations
see themselves changing and how
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:do firms adapt to those demands?
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:We'll have a few great speakers.
364
:We'll have a President of
Corporate Sales at UPS.
365
:We'll have a Senior Vice President
of Performance Effectiveness
366
:at Cox Communications.
367
:We'll have Senior Leaders From a couple
of other Georgia companies Great Dane
368
:let's see, we'll have some folks from
Schlumberger, from Asea Brown Boveri,
369
:ABB a number of other industrial firms
anyway, that's all I can think of
370
:at the moment, hope you can join us.
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:Erich Starrett: Bob, thank you so
much for that and for joining us.
372
:And again, folks you've got
to get out salesmanagement.
373
:org.
374
:And I'm very pleased to share both
in partnership with Bob here on
375
:the podcast, but almost more over
on the Technology Association of
376
:Georgia here locally, of which I'm a
proud member for a decade or three.
377
:Has teamed up with Bob to offer
up a promotion code, which is
378
:being part of the TAG family.
379
:And it doesn't, if whether you're
here in Georgia locally or coming
380
:from overseas, T-A-G-F-A-M is
the promo code you can plug in.
381
:And Bob, tell 'em a little
bit more about that.
382
:Do they get a little
knock off the price or
383
:Bob Kelly: They do.
384
:Yeah, you say, so that lowers
the registration cost for
385
:you from $895 to $4.95.
386
:The code is TAGFAM.
387
:Erich Starrett: Awesome, Bob.
388
:Thanks for sharing that.
389
:Thanks TAG for being part of our extended
family and Bob for being right here
390
:in Atlanta and leading the charge to
elevate sales management enablement
391
:and sales management specifically.
392
:Great to have you on the show Bob.
393
:Bob Kelly: Thanks so much
for having me, Erich.
394
:Really enjoyed it.
395
:Thank you.
396
:Erich Starrett: Pleasure.