In this episode, Creative Arts curriculum advisor Alex Papasavvas speaks with teachers Anni Gifford and Miriam O’Rance from James Fallon High School, ex-student Shanaya Quinn, and Duncan Smith OAM and Jakida Smith from Wiradjuri Echoes Consultancy. Listen to a deep discussion about how the school worked with Wiradjuri Echoes to establish Maliyan Mob, a student-led Aboriginal dance group, and the Cultural Protocols developed and followed throughout this successful long-term partnership.

Note: Throughout this podcast terms such as First Nations or Indigenous are used. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred. This podcast contains the name of a deceased person.

To learn more, visit our resource Cultural Protocols and practices in Creative Arts or join the Creative Arts statewide staffroom.

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative

Arts Team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New

South Wales Department of Education.

The Creative Arts Curriculum Team recognises the ongoing custodians of the

lands and waterways where we work and live here on Darug Country and on all the

lands on which you are listening today.

We pay respects to Elders past and present as ongoing teachers of

knowledge, Songlines and stories.

We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner

in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New

South Wales Department of Education Creative Arts Curriculum team.

My name is Alex Papasavvas, and I'm a Creative Arts curriculum

Advisor, 7 to 12 with the Department of Education, Secondary

Curriculum, Curriculum Directorate.

Our topic for discussion today is Maliyan Mob, the Aboriginal Student Dance Group

from James Fallon High School in Albury.

And we're gonna hear the story of how the group was formed, what kind of Cultural

Protocols were developed along the way, and some of the factors that led to the

self-sustaining success of this group.

Let's welcome our guests.

Here in Albury on Wiradjuri Country I'm joined by Anni Gifford and Miriam

O'Rance, teachers at James Fallon High School, who have shared the responsibility

of leading the school's Aboriginal Education team and the dance group, and

Shanaya Quinn, an ex-student, proud young Wiradjuri and Awabakal woman and a member

of Maliyan Mob from the early days.

Hello.

Miriam O'Rance: Hello.

Hi.

Joining us from Ngunnawal Country, we have Duncan Smith,

OAM, and Jakida Smith from Wiradjuri Echoes, Cultural consultants that have

worked with the school since 2017 to lead workshops with the dance group

and with the broader student cohort.

Hello.

Duncan Smith OAM: Hey you mob!

We'll be talking a lot about the story of the

Maliyan Mob Dance Group today.

But before we start, I think it would be good to make sure we

talk about Cultural Protocols.

This isn't a new idea at all, but something that's been known

and understood in Aboriginal Communities for a long, long time.

So, Duncan, I'll ask you first to share some understanding before we start talking

about the specifics of this project.

Can you tell us a bit about Cultural Protocols and how

they inform your practice?

Duncan Smith OAM: Yep.

Always acknowledge the tribal lands and the Aboriginal peoples

on which your school sits.

Always seek permission and consult with local Elders and Community.

Acknowledge the different tribes that the kids in your school are from, because

each Culture is unique and different.

Each tribe has their own country, lore, language and Culture.

For the schools, seek teachers that are, that are passionate about having

Aboriginal Culture in the school.

The more Elders and Community you welcome and involve into your school, the easier

it will be to follow Cultural Protocols.

Aboriginal people are the only ones with the knowledge to teach Aboriginal Culture.

I'll begin with you Anni.

Can you give us a bit of a background on the school?

I know there's been an active Aboriginal Education Team

there for quite a long time.

And then how did the initial seed of this idea for an Aboriginal

student dance group come about?

Well, James Fallon is a regional school with a really

diverse student population with about, 20% of the school identifying as

Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander.

I was the Aboriginal Education Coordinator there for about 6 years before moving

into the role as head teacher of our CAPA faculty but unofficially

working in that Aboriginal Education Coordinator role before that, before

the role existed which I think happens at a lot of schools, since about 2009.

And our Aboriginal Education Team started at about that time too.

Why a dance group?

It probably, we probably need to go back to the beginning at looking at where that

idea came from, that it was probably first that we identified that we had a really

strong dance culture at our school and our Dance teacher, Katrina Joss, saw the

need for embedding authentic Aboriginal perspectives in the Dance curriculum.

And then from there we included any interested First Nations students

in the first dance workshops and we had lots of interest.

Duncan and Jakida, when they came, identified that there was all this

enthusiasm and all these wonderful interested First Nations students

that wanted to get involved.

We started talking casually about attendance issues and other challenges

that we were having for a lot of those students, as particularly as those

students moved through the years of high school and, Duncan was like, ‘you

should use their Culture to make 'em strong and proud and, and use that

as the way to engage them in school.’

So, let me ask you, from that initial identified need

for workshop incursion for senior Dance, what did the school need to do

to find out how to engage a Cultural provider that was approved or supported

by the local Aboriginal Community?

We had an Aboriginal SLSO at the school, Bec Lea who

was also president of the AECG.

Mm-hmm.

And she linked us up with an approved provider and that was

Wiradjuri Echoes and the big offering that came with that, the investment that

came with that was the 2018 National Multicultural Festival in Canberra.

They had federal funding that could actually make it possible for, to help

us with transport and help us with accommodation, as well as coming out

for that additional workshop to go through the dances again and teach them

and get them up to, up to the standard where they could perform for thousands

of people to go to that festival.

And I reckon that was the solidifying experience that made that group,

because that was having someone of Duncan's status and knowledge coming in

and saying, your kids are worth this.

You are worth this level of investment.

You are worth building something here.

And not only do I think we can build something here, but I actually want

you with me on that national stage, Showing off for thousands of people.

And that level of investment from someone as knowledgeable and respected as

Duncan and his family made them step up.

They knew that they had something that they wanted to protect too.

Being in the, in an Albury school community, did, did

questions come up about getting Cultural consultants coming from Canberra to

do those workshops with the students?

Oh, definitely.

Even though we went through those Protocols of going through the AECG

and using approved providers, there was more of a question early on, and to be

honest, it's a completely fair question.

So, while they were approved locally, the group does then enable

a lot of connections with local community through their performances.

It's that slow work making those connections with local community.

Then community groups reach out and other opportunities are created by

that with other Wiradjuri artists and knowledge holders in the area.

And I think.

Even though there were questions early on about ‘why are you using a

Canberra based group, why aren't you going local’, by sticking around and

continuing to grow the group and making those local connections, which Wiradjuri

Echoes have always said is the most important thing, and I think they'll

probably talk about that a bit later.

The most important thing is that then making those connections with the

community that you live in, on the country that you're on doing that then meant that

those other opportunities are created, just kept strengthening the group.

And it's important to also mention that Maliyan Mob are a mixed mob

group on Wiradjuri country that's home to families from a lot of

different Aboriginal nations.

And that's something that Uncle Duncan talks a lot to them about.

They actually, they keep Wiradjuri traditions alive

through Cultural practice, and this is what makes them one mob.

And they actually open their performances now by saying that

they all come from different mobs.

There might be  Wiradjuri, Yuin, Barkinji, Ngiyampaa, but they all come

together as one on Wiradjuri country.

And I think all of this is to say that it's a really complex space to be

working in as a non-Aboriginal person.

And I think as non-Aboriginal people we can sometimes be too

sensitive about critical feedback when you work in Cultural spaces.

And it's actually a gift to have someone in Community give feedback on the work

you try and facilitate, actually means that people are invested in making

it better, more truthful, meaningful.

Taking the time to listen and take it on will actually just deepen the

community's trust in what you're doing.

So, once the idea to start a student

Wiradjuri dance group came up.

What did you know you guys would need to do from the school to make

sure that you were following the right Cultural Protocols to work with

Duncan and Jakida and to have students learning, performing, and holding

this Aboriginal dance repertoire.

I think the first thing I'd wanna start with is

that this is an ongoing reflexive thing and we didn't know.

We actually started by not knowing.

We didn't know what those Protocols were and we didn't know how to navigate

it, and so we needed to ask a lot of questions and be prepared to be

wrong, and redirected as we went.

Like first between visits Duncan passed that mentorship role onto our wonderful

Rebecca Lea, who was both the president of our local AECG, and was working in

our school, then, in an unofficial AEO role, the, common dynamic for a lot of

Aboriginal staff across our schools, employed as an SLSO, but working beyond

that role as a community liaison and support person beyond the classroom.

Just something I wanna acknowledge 'cause I know that that's something

that happens across a lot of people's schools, that that unseen labour.

And now she's officially in that AEO role finally, as she richly deserves and having

someone as connected, as Bec in our school really allowed me as the coordinator

to learn how to work with consultatory groups like the AECG, how to actually

listen and navigate them respectfully.

And that early support from the school was through staff cover, and

we had a very old 12-seater bus that was donated and that allowed them to

attend Community performances at no cost and any donations we received,

we used for, for performance gear.

So, you could see that like, really we were developing things as we went,

responding to need as it came up.

And I think like the careful consultation with Wiradjuri Echoes and I had just,

the generosity of them to just keep communicating with us through the process,

through the year, even if they were only coming for, one or two annual visits.

We owe like, a forever debt of gratitude to that.

We developed audio tracks from live recordings of the dancers.

Duncan kindly gave us permission to use these performances and this way we always

had his voice leading them in language and music, and we have to be really careful

about sharing these in live venues.

That's probably one of the big Cultural Protocols, making sure that they delete

the tracks after each use because they are his intellectual property.

There's always a risk of people using them as teaching videos.

Some of these dances, they, they're sacred Wiradjuri Cultural practices,

and they have to be treated that way.

And our students, they're taught that as part of their learning, and

that's definitely something that I know that Uncle Duncan and Jakida

are gonna talk about more later.

Miriam O'Rance: Early on, another Cultural Protocol that we had in place

was we sought permission from Wiradjuri Echoes to be able to have students

share the Boomerang dance when they go out to a variety of different events.

Sometimes that's daycare, sometimes that's primary schools, and having the ability

to share one of the dances that they've learned really solidifies their sense of

… Not ownership, but their sense of capacity to share something that they love and they

feel passionate about and wanna protect and have the ability to share that and

see it performed en masse by students, or young ones, whoever it might be.

It's quite a beautiful thing that has come out of it.

But always with that, we've had schools say, oh, can they, perform this dance

when you are not here being very, very clear that like, no, that's not okay

and that's not acceptable because we are opting and choosing to share this

with you, it's not for you to have,

And being very clear with places.

Then yeah, as Anni already mentioned, no, you may not have these audio

tracks and no, you may not perform this afterwards when they are not here

because it's actually not yours to have.

So, I'll come to you now Duncan and Jakida, can you tell

us the story from your perspective?

How was the relationship between the school and Wiradjuri Echoes established?

And what Cultural Protocols were set up for, firstly the workshops

and then for the dance group as it developed to learn from you and then

to perform that repertoire themselves after you guys had left the school.

Duncan Smith OAM: Yeah.

Well it started, it started back in 2016 when we were invited to the school

to share Cultural dances and we were pretty excited about coming down and

sharing with the school these dances.

And we noticed very quickly that they had a, a fairly good amount of Indigenous

kids at the school, and we felt, after we'd seen them dance a little bit,

decided to have a chat about what, what could we do in setting up, you know,

these Aboriginal kids to start to dance and to start to form a dance group.

Which is, which is, which wasn't easy in the sense because when you go to

a school just to share Culture, it's, it's quite easy because you share

your Culture then you go home and nothing else is thought about it.

But then when you see the passion from these Indigenous kids or Aboriginal

kids, it really touches your heart so then you want to start to teach them.

And you know, sharing and teaching these two to totally different

things with the teaching side of things, they were told upfront that

if we're going to do this, then they need to be very serious about it.

They need to be very, strong in what they do, and I always put Jakida out in front

of them to show that the strength you need and the level of strength you need to be

able to practice your Culture properly.

Practicing, practicing your Culture, our people when I was brought up with

Culture is to put yourself into it.

Your whole self, your strength, your passion, and not to just, not to

just do things half-heartedly, but to do it with strength and power.

So, we talked with the kids about, about doing these dances and letting

them know that they are thousands of years old and we talk with them

about their ancestors and, and what it means to dance for your ancestors.

First and foremost is a big thing that I pushed with the kids was

that you dance for your ancestors.

When you dance for your ancestors, everyone will enjoy it anyways.

So, yeah, so what I, what I'd seen very early on was even with the kids

in the elective Dance classes, the Aboriginal kids the, the pride in

their eyes that their Culture was actually being shared, but also that

they got invited to be part of it.

And then when we asked them about, oh, do you wanna do some workshops

just with the Indigenous kids?

You know, that that pride was like, enormous with Aboriginal kids.

So, they came in a little bit nervous and a little bit unsure.

And we'd said, well now it's not about sharing.

Now it's about teaching.

Yeah.

Duncan Smith OAM: This is the part where I stepped in and said, this

is where you start to dance for your ancestors, dance for your Elders.

Dance with strength and power and not to do it half-heartedly.

And that soon sorted out the ones that were very, you

know, ah, this is my Culture.

This is who I am.

This is my identity.

I wanna be part of this.

And the Protocols for that, in the sense of, of Protocols for myself is

that I was taught that you dance with strength, you dance for your ancestors

and you dance with power all the time.

If you walk off from this workshop or all these teachings and you are

absolutely drained, then you know, you've put yourself and your spirit into it.

And it was quite, it was quite moving when I said to the kids, well, generally

when our people prepared to dance with, with this passion and this seriousness,

we have to wear our paint, we have to wear traditional paint, and we have to

connect our spirit with Mother Earth, with our ancestors, and they're all

excited about being painted up and taking that next step of, of their Culture.

We receive the phone call to go down there initially, and, and I thought it

was, I thought it was great, but I'd been to other schools and, and set up dance

groups and that passion wasn't there.

There was,

the kids didn't own it, the school owned it and there was things done,

and they very quickly fell to pieces.

Where with Albury, I felt these kids are so passionate and I have to say, you

need passionate people behind them too.

So, you need, we can't just walk into any school and just say, oh, we wanna come

here, we wanna do our Cultural stuff.

We've first and foremost, gotta be invited there.

That comes from what somebody thinking about it.

The next thing is we meet these passionate people and we see it in them

that they want good things to happen for these Aboriginal kids so therefore

we become more passionate about it.

And then we become more, more, more determined to make that work.

And with the dancers, you know, in them early days they were, they were

just absolutely awesome and, and they made me very proud in that sense of,

of, of them taking that, my words, I said, and taking it with great strength

and power and, and, and performing.

So, I've seen that passion, I've seen that power.

The, the passion from Anni, originally was, was absolutely wonderful because

we felt Anni was really, you know, at the forefront of pushing this forward

– with the school, not with us 'cause we were there, but with the school.

And then we found that Bec had come on board and, and Bec promised me and I,

I give her permission to, make sure the kids in their rehearsals were turning

up for rehearsals and, and dancing as strong as they're dancing in front of us.

'Cause the worst thing you want under Aboriginal Protocol is our Protocol

with our dance is to teach us, go away, and then they forget, or us

go away and they change something.

If these dancers are handed down thousands of years and nothing changes

that way, they remain the same.

If we go home and the kids decide to change something in the dance, then

it, then it cuts that, thousands of years of, of history off.

So, I explained that to Bec.

I said, they really need to make sure they do every movement they do in front of

us, that they move exactly the same way.

And I said to Bec, they need to be passionate about it.

They need to do their movement spot on.

And she promised me that they would and the next year I came down and they

were moving spot on exactly the same.

And Bec wouldn't allow them to again, get lazy halfway through the day, even

when we were there, or muck around.

So, you got that reinforcement.

From myself, but also a member of their community.

Yes.

Duncan Smith OAM: Someone they looked up to and respected.

So, then they became, she became that, that light of an Elder

saying, ‘No, this stays the same.

You have to do it like this.

You can't just be there, mucking around.’ We have, we have Dreamtime

stories or stories from, from the past about kids that muck up and,

and don't do the right thing.

So, by sticking to these sorts of stories, you know, links it all up.

And that is the, the Willy Wagtail story of the young boy that was

mucking around and he had the white ochre all on his body that the Elders

could only get on the front of him.

And he was mucking around, mucking around, jumping over the fire.

The old men would tell him to go away because he didn't wanna listen and learn.

He eventually, they told him, if you keep going, you will fall into the fire.

He tripped and fell into the fire.

And when he came out, he, he was the Willy Wagtail.

And that's why the Willy, we believe the Willy Wagtail moves doesn't sit

still because he's still mucking around.

He has the white ochre on his chest and the, the charcoal all over him.

He's got the white ochre and the black all over him.

But if you look at a Willy Wagtail, and I explained this to the kids when I was

teaching them, that, you know, that if you watch a Willy Wagtail, he'll jump

around, jump around, he won't sit still.

And now we, now for us as Wiradjuri people, he is our bird of bad news.

So, some teachings that I was taught that that, just like that Willy

Wagtail, if you listen and learn and listen to your Elders, then you'll

learn everything about your Culture.

If you wanna muck around and be silly, you know, negative things and

bad things can happen because if you don't take it serious, anybody that's

watching ain't gonna take it serious.

And if, if they see the kids just mucking around or, or being silly, then they're

gonna think it takes away the true strength and passion of our Culture.

So, for people to see it,

these, they have to also feel though that was so strong and powerful,

these kids are awesome because they're putting that in yeah.

Duncan, can I ask you about the, that

dance repertoire, the music.

I know that you've provided music tracks for the dancers to dance to.

They're in your voice.

I think some of them may even have you calling some of the movements

so that the dancers hear them as

they're in the performance.

Can you tell us from a Cultural Protocols perspective, what are the, permissions

that you and the dancers have to agree to, about, I know you've said they have to

keep all the movements the same about, you know, which dances they can take away with

them and perform for people, which dances, they can bring kids from the audiences up

as well to come into their performance.

Duncan Smith OAM: Well, see the, the, the first dance is

what we call Ceremonial dance.

That's the sweeping and cleansing dance.

You can't have anybody involved but them kids with that dance.

That can't be shared in the sense of bringing anybody to join in.

It's, it is a Ceremonial dance.

Most of the dances require that strength and passion and that power.

But there's one, one dance that we allowed the kids to do and, and to share with

community, and I don't mean Aboriginal Community, I mean community in general

– daycare centres, preschools, primary schools, high schools – and that was the

Boomerang dance because it's, it is what we call a Corroboree style of dance.

It's a celebrational, sort of a dance.

So, you can, and it's an easier dance to do.

So, I know that these kids.

These Aboriginal kids are going to share that with them and they're going to do it

right because there's not many, much, many mistakes you can make with that dance.

Where with the other dances, if the kids are sharing it and saying, come up and

do this dance, if them kids that are coming up to be a part of it get the

movement wrong, then it just changes the whole dynamics of it and it disrespects

Cultural Protocol of, of doing that dance to how it's meant to be done.

So, allowing them to have one dance that they can share, I, I picked

that dance because it's very simple and straightforward and there's

not much you can get wrong with it.

I'll ask you too.

Jakida, as a young Wiradjuri woman working for Wiradjuri Echoes with

your dad coming out to the schools to deliver these workshops and teach the

dancers, what's that like for you?

For me, it's culturally fulfilling.

Because growing up all I've known is my Culture and all I've, all I've done

is dance my whole life and I love it.

And, the one thing that I wanna teach these kids and what I've

always been taught is my identity and their identity is their Culture.

And learning dances and, and learning songs and, and the way I see them

when they first come in, where they're not really sure about it

and they're not really confident.

And then by the end of our time with them, there they are, more confident than ever.

And I see them come out of their shells and I see them be proud of

who they are and and their identity.

And as a younger woman, it's good to see these kids wanna take it on and

keep it going for the next generation.

You know, these kids, when we're there, we see them, you know, help the younger kids.

So, if they have the younger kids there, they try and help them and they

really take on what, we teach them.

Duncan Smith OAM: Do you remember, do you remember when I had

asked the two girls to leave?

Because they were being a little bit silly and not

Yeah.

Duncan Smith OAM: Not putting in the power and the strength that they needed

to, and I explained to them they were letting the rest of the group down.

Yes.

Duncan Smith OAM: And then you went off and had a chat with them.

Yeah.

And I, I thought to myself, you know, I remember being a kid,

you know, being like that and, and you know, wanting just to be around your mates

and, and going and doing what you want.

But then there was also that, that Cultural thing that they promised

and they wanted to be there.

And in that time was our time with them to learn their Culture.

So, when they came back, we had said to them in the group, for you to come back

and be part of this session, you are gonna have to dance in front of the group.

And I thought.

because they were young girls that they were gonna go, no, no, no.

But they said they, they went straight for it and they said, ‘Yeah, we'll do it.’

We'll, we'll dance in front of the group.

And the group also allowed them to do it.

They had the question of, would you let the girls come back?

And they agreed and said, we'll, let the girls dance in front of us.

And the feeling I got when those two girls got up and danced, but they didn't just

dance, they danced as strong as they could in front of the group and in front of us.

I couldn't be more proud of them, you know, for them to, to make

a mistake and then come back...

Duncan Smith OAM: Fix it,

...and fix it and do it 10 times harder is that's

all we ask, is for you to.

Want your Culture as much as we want to teach you.

Duncan Smith OAM: And to be as, be as passionate as us about it.

And that, and that's the whole thing, like to be as passionate

as, as us about your Culture.

That's what, that's what makes us Aboriginal people saying, oh, I'm black.

I'm proud, I've got black skin.

Or, I'm proud, I'm Wiradjuri, if you don't put everything into your Culture

and make sure that it's done properly then you are letting yourself down

your community, your, your school, your family, your, your ancestors.

It's all about practicing your Culture and having that passionate about

it and, and making it our identity.

'Cause it's easy to say, I'm black, it's easy to say, I'm Aboriginal.

It's not so easy when you're there learning it all, and you have to

follow all the Protocols of that one dance that you are learning.

And that is to learn every single movement and every single chant.

And you know, the reasons why we shake-a-leg, the

reasons why we stomp our feet.

And I explain to the kids, it's the little things that make a difference in

Culture that the kids don't know about.

When you ask most Aboriginal kids, why do we shake-a-leg?

They, they, they.

Oh, I don't know why, why?

Why do we stomp our feet?

Oh, I don't know.

Well, I'm going to tell you, and you have to remember, and you have to

make sure that when you are stomping your feet, this is the reason why

you're stomping your feet, and I told them that you stomp your feet to

wake up the spirit of Mother Earth.

See when a big mob of us are dancing on, on dirt, on-Country,

then we thump our feet to wake up the spirit of Mother Earth.

We know she blesses us when we get the dust to go up and it settles

back on our skin, we know that that Mother Earth is then acknowledging us.

We called the shake-a-leg, millamurri burrubuun and that is to shake our

legs like the wings of a butterfly.

So, it's even those littlest things that in Culture that are

recognised like a butterfly.

We hunt kangaroos, we hunt emus, but that butterfly, that little butterfly

still has a massive role in our Culture because every single dance we

do, there is a shake-a-leg within it.

There is stomping our feet within it.

So, even when we spot the kids just walking rather than stomping, see, because

the stomping of the feet creates its own beat, and if you are not stomping

your feet, then the beat is missing.

If you are not walking and chanting with passion and power, the chant is missing.

If you are not doing the movements to perfection, then

them movements are missing.

So, when you don't put your whole self into it, then you literally are

changing the dance, which changes the Protocol of your Culture.

So, your Culture needs to be respected in that sense of put

everything you have into it.

And that's, that's exactly right.

And, things, Protocols, like when we first start and we do their face

painting, the, the girls will come to me and I will paint their faces

and the boys will go to Duncan.

And that just shows that there's men's business so the boys will go to Dad

and, and the, and the girls will come to me, and that's women's business.

And throughout those sessions, the girls will come up and talk to me about things

and if they're not feeling great or if they're not feeling confident about

something, and within that Culture, that is men and women's business.

So, instead of them, you know, going up to Dad and talking to them about it,

the girls feel like it's a woman's thing between us to talk about things and if

they're not feeling too well about things.

And like that day with the two girls, you know, I went up to them after and said,

I'm very proud of you for doing that and to, and to do that and, and to take it on.

So, things like that and just between our little group to have men's–

men's business and women's business is also a great Protocol to have.

It just makes me aware of how many of those practices are present

in the students who now play that Cultural mentor role with each other.

So many details because of the richness of that teaching, moving from sharing

to teaching, the richness of that teaching with those days that you

spend with them, it comes out in all these smaller practices, Cultural

practices of care with each other.

That definitely I see young women watching you Jakida and learning how to actually

play that Cultural mentorship role and then going in and, and providing that care

and mentorship to their younger peers.

You can see it blow down.

Yeah.

And that's, and that's the thing about our Culture is that it is handed on.

See, for me.

I was very proud to see Shanaya be there the last time we were there.

Duncan Smith OAM: Yes.

And really pull them in and, and, and tell everyone

to listen and, and pay attention.

And that to me shows that she really took on what we said and, and really took on

what we did with, with their group because now she's a leader, even though she's not

at the school anymore, she is a leader in our community and in our dance group.

And a lot of the kids would look up to her too now.

Duncan Smith OAM: And that's it.

I, I don't know if Shanaya even knows it, but if she's in Community

and she's watching these mob dance and she's sitting back there as

an adult and she goes, ‘nah.’

[laughter from all guests]

‘Get up there, back up there, and you dance stronger than what you

are because you're being lazy.’

You know what I mean?

So you've got Community watching the future generations to make

sure that they do it properly.

When we're not around, we can't control nothing when we're not around.

But when you've got Community, the same as them two girls, one of them girls had

a big sister in the group, and I remember, and the big sister said, you pull your

head in and start doing it properly.

You know what I mean?

So, it reinforces what we say and that's what this one here does.

She makes me very proud because she was there that day and she was like,

instantly got up and said, ‘no, that's it.

You're not doing a properly do like this.’ And that's, that's, see with us

taking the kids to Canberra was, was a reward thing to make 'em more passionate.

But now what you have now is, these kids go into primary schools and daycare,

preschools and so on and so on, in community that when the kids come to

Year 7 and say they want to be part of the group, the, the, the Aboriginal kids

that have been in the group or in the group, they then take that leadership

role and say, ‘no, you need to know that this stuff needs to be in order when

Uncle Duncan, Jakida comes down because you'll know about it when they get here.’

They put that little bit of, not fear, but just you need to know

where your, where your passion lies when they get here, yeah.

And you need to have everything in order before they get here.

And I think, and that's, and that's its own little Protocol within the group.

These kids tell the next generations, if you wanna be part of this and

you wanna be part of your Culture, you need to do it with that passion

and, and the big word respect.

Thanks Duncan and Jakida for sharing those

stories and your knowledge with us.

This feels like a great place to bring you in, Shanaya, you were involved

with the Wiradjuri Dance Group and then Maliyan Mob since really early on when

you were in Year 7, you had a big role in its name change to Maliyan Mob as well.

First though, can you tell us about what being in the group, working with

Duncan and Jakida, working with the other dancers, what did that mean to you?

It was great.

In primary school I never did any Cultural stuff.

It felt like the only Cultural thing I did was Acknowledgement

of Countries at assemblies.

I always wanted more connection to other Aboriginal students and

to the Culture within itself.

I remember my first workshop.

I had friends who were going and my older brother.

That was probably the only reason I went.

My dad said I should do it, otherwise I'd be in trouble, 'cause he always wanted

me to be connected to Culture as well.

I liked that there were kids from families that I didn't get along with, but when

we danced together, it meant we clicked.

That's why I feel connected to Maliyan Mob.

Now, I've got big dreams teaching Culture in schools, prisons, everywhere, anywhere.

I think this has given me the confidence to get myself out there.

I'd like to do what Uncle Duncan does.

Culture is the thing that saves my people.

It drags us away from the bad.

I used to get in trouble at school and found myself in a bad

position when I found bad friends.

I was beefing with all my teachers, but when I was in dance or doing anything

Cultural, it put me in the right track.

Miriam O'Rance: And you come in a fair bit now, and even though you're not a student

anymore, you graduated last year, why do you feel that you want to come in and

continue to be involved with Maliyan Mob.

It's just still being connected to Culture and

helping out the younger generation.

'Cause I'm still so close with the kids 'cause I'm still

so close with in their age.

Miriam O'Rance: Mm-hmm.

So they still connect with me a lot.

I think I just take that role like seriously.

I know that like the girls like look up to me and when I go out into the

community, they're all, everyone's like, you're a part of Maliyan Mob, you're part

of Maliyan Mob, you lead Maliyan Mob.

So yeah.

You told us before we started Shanaya that you remember seeing

the dancers come through your primary school before you came up to high school

and remembering that was one of the things that also made you feel like you wanted

to get involved once you got into Year 7.

I saw them at one of like the main NAIDOC events and that's when my

older brother was in it and I just wanted to be like my older

brother and do it with him.

So, let's talk about the name Maliyan Mob.

Where did this name come from and what was your part in that story?

The name come from Uncle Duncan.

We, we wanted to change the name for a while.

We always wanted our name to be separate from the school 'cause at

times we would always just be called the James Fallon High School Dancers.

Yep.

We wanted to know that we're not just the dance

group, we're a Cultural group.

I used my family connection.

My Uncle Tunny is my pop and I just asked him to get the name approved.

He was very happy to do that 'cause he loved watching us girls dance.

And then he loved watching the boys come in as well to the dance group.

He was very proud to approve that name

Duncan Smith OAM: And I'm sure your pop would've seen that bub, by just

asking for permission to use that name.

How it is exactly how, how our Protocol works.

That these Elders today probably haven't seen the Cultural

dancing since they were kids.

And then to do that full loop and they're seeing it again now, brought

back by these future generations, makes them so proud that that course, of

course, they would approve it, seeking that permission so you don't have to

seek permission from all the Elders.

You just have to seek permission from a Elder in the Community.

And if that Elder is a family member, then that's even better because it

allows that Elder then to say, well, I'm part of this history making of

Culture coming back in our communities.

That's how important it is to seek permission of the Elders, because

they do feel like they're part of it

And

our most important people in our lives are–

Duncan Smith, OAM: And they, yeah, and they are our most important

people in our Culture is our Elders.

They're everything.

So I think, I think it's a great thing that, that, you know, bub seek

that permission to change that name or to have that name, and now, you

know, to have as part of the dance group for that longevity forever.

I think that changed the dynamics of the group because now they

could look at something that is, is part of their Culture, the, the,

Wedgetail Eagle and, and, and being as strong as that Wedgetail Eagle.

Soaring as high as that, Wedgetail Eagle.

Miriam O'Rance: Mm-hmm.

Duncan Smith OAM: So, they were the meanings behind picking that name.

It wasn't just randomly picked, oh, let's just be the Wedgetail Eagles.

We looked at the strength of the eagle.

We looked at, at how high the eagle can soar, in that sense that the Maliyan Mob

will rise and, and rise above everything and continue, um, into the future.

But it was mainly about that strength of this dance group.

So, we've heard, about how the group was formed, and

we've heard a bit about how it grew and changed to its current form.

I wanna ask you, Anni and Miriam, as the teachers in the school, about

what you feel were some of the real success factors in supporting growth

and continuity for this dance group.

It's been active for a few years now.

It'll be 10 years next year.

The older students involved.

Now would've still been in primary school when the group was formed.

I'm interested in hearing about what kind of Protocols and structures were,

were put in place to safeguard continuity and what led to the current state of

the dance group as this self-sustaining entity with financial independence and

a lot of student agency and leadership.

Well, their local Elders were their foundational

strength from the start.

Their Elders were the champions, and that has made all the difference.

Auntie Edna Stewart and Uncle Tunny Murray have always been so generous with

their time and advice, often linking the group up with really different cool

opportunities And it's quite moving really, to think about all they've done

for the group over the last almost decade.

Auntie Nancy Rooke was also a big supporter of the group in the

early days, who sadly passed away now, but whose beautiful words of

encouragement still stay with us.

When there were questions about what this was and how it was all gonna work,

their Elders built them up every time they got up and performed, they told

them how proud they were and they told them what it meant to them to see them

up there dancing for their ancestors.

And that's happened across this whole journey and has never stopped.

The way that all of them have invested in.

And really there's countless people, so too many people to actually acknowledge

the way that the community here has lifted these guys up and told them

how proud they are and actually become advocates and protectors of it as well.

Incredibly moving, and that pride then, The older kids take to the younger

guys when they come through that.

I think that that's been the thing for continuity.

Miriam O'Rance: Definitely.

So, we are very fortunate that we are requested every single

year to go to our feeder schools.

We have quite a beautiful ongoing tradition now of older students

performing in front of their youngest siblings at the feeder schools.

Who then get up to dance with them.

We had this NAIDOC, a really beautiful moment where family had danced at

one of our feeder schools where their sibling goes, and then at our NAIDOC

assembly, when they were present in the audience, they actually got

up and danced with Maliyan Mob.

So it's quite embedded in these schools.

It's almost like a rite of passage that, you have seen Maliyan Mob dance,

you've learnt one of the dances by the time you even get to to high school.

And then when you go into those intensive workshops, you already

feel a sense of like acceptance.

You already feel a sense of being welcomed.

And the older kids really take the younger kids under their arm and they

hold them so accountable for everything.

And because the older kids take it so seriously, the younger kids are

ingrained from the get-go that this is actually a very serious thing.

We take it seriously, we take care of it, and we really safeguard it for the future.

And they uphold those incredibly high expectations and standards

that Duncan and Jakida give to them on those intensives throughout

the rest of the whole entire year.

And they take it seriously and that allows it to grow and to build.

I think that is the strength in this model is the continuity of having

Wiradjuri Echoes come back every year.

It almost feels like a, like a fuel.

Miriam O'Rance: Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like they get fuelled up and then they last, they can last for the year, but

it always feels like things are running low when you guys get there, and then

they're all topped up when you leave.

And a quick shout out to the two James Fallon alumni now studying at NAISDA with

others in the pipeline ready to audition.

Really shows that it's a passion and skill that takes these guys far

beyond the school and that really their own dreams are the only limit

to where they wanna go from here.

Our job has sort of become putting some boundaries in place to protect those

guys because they've become really requested in the community and that

can, I think sometimes that esteem they're held in means that people

don't, don't remember that they're kids.

They don't remember that they're young people that are really doing this out

of, out of their own enthusiasm and love for their Culture, but that doesn't

mean that they don't have a limit.

So, NAIDOC is always very full on, and we make sure that after

NAIDOC, when they might have 15 performances over the 2 weeks.

That afterwards, they have a bit of downtime, and they have some rewards in

place for the money that they're actually bringing in through donations, which is

probably the next thing to talk about.

Miriam O'Rance: Definitely.

I think we've already touched on the fact that funding, grants are very transient.

Sometimes they're there and sometimes they are not.

And something that I was unequivocally aware of when I stepped into co-ordinating

while um, Anni was on maternity leave was that very fact of, okay, you have

something that you can see is thriving, it is flourishing, it is having such a

phenomenal positive impact on students.

I am concerned as someone who understands the department, and I understand

funding sometimes it's not always there.

We need to safeguard and we need to protect this from a financial point

of view because if you get another principal in who is not as supportive

as ours is, and it comes out of the school's budget, it can be cut.

And we absolutely do not want that to be the case.

So, we have now, been very, in a very fortunate position where the community

recognises the fact that these are students, they recognise the work of these

students, and they want to make donations to continue to be sustainable and the

way that that you make it sustainable is to be self-sufficient financially,

because then it's untouchable.

And it's embedded in the school in a way where principals can come and go.

Grants can come and go, but they are sustaining themselves, so they won't come

and go, it will be actually a program that transcends time because you're

not relying on the department, you're not relying on someone else's budget.

You are requiring and relying on the generosity of people who invite Maliyan

Mob to perform, but the people that invite Maliyan Mob to perform value them.

So, they are willing to give those donations, and those donations mean

that students can receive things such as the hoodies and the t-shirts

with Duncan's beautiful design on the back, which have Jakida's

handprints when she was a little bub.

So beautiful.

Miriam O'Rance: You have that legacy and it's lovely when the kids go out.

I saw Shanaya at the footy last weekend.

She's not even at school anymore, and she has Maliyan Mob jumper on.

Mm-hmm.

So, we had people wanting to be generous from early on, but no way of taking

their money because they, they needed particular invoices or, or receipts to

acquit their own expenses on their end.

Because as we know, every institution has their own set of

financial rules and processes.

School Bytes, which I know that a lot of schools have now is a really valuable

tool for that because people with just a link can make a direct donation

and receive a receipt for that, and that has been a game changer for us.

Yeah, and I remember you guys saying before, you know,

you are more like the facilitators here of a group that's very

much, owned, run by the students.

What does that look like when you're doing it on the ground?

I think what that looks like is Protocols and processes that are

actually set by the group themselves.

I think it is difficult in hierarchies like a school because we are positioned in

relation to the students as the experts, and we're positioned in relationship to

the students as the bosses of things.

And this can't be a space where that is true because otherwise you've

got two non-Aboriginal people being the bosses in a Cultural group.

It has all the hallmarks of practices long, hopefully gone

– Miriam O'Rance: Yeah.

– Anni Gifford: and in the past.

So, we have no interest in that kind of in interfering in the Cultural mentorship.

That is something that Wiradjuri Echoes do, and that's something

that the group does for themselves.

And Miriam, developed some Protocols and processes through a student contract.

Miriam O'Rance: Absolutely.

They want to hold each other accountable because they have these high

expectations of upholding everything that the two of you teach them when

you come down for the intensives.

And then our sort of job is to manage those things behind the

scenes as well as being the mouthpiece for students if they've…

We had an incident where they did a performance within the community.

They weren't happy.

So they should and absolutely do feel comfortable coming and speaking to us and

saying, we want something to be done about this, allowing us to advocate for them.

Mm-hmm.

Miriam O'Rance: If you are asking these kids to dance, you've gotta

have certain things there for them.

You need to make sure that you are protecting their Cultural safety because

those aren't necessarily things that the kids are confident to do, but we

need to, that's sort of our, our role.

We advocate for them, but they completely run themselves.

And you said it before when we were talking about this.

We drive a bus.

Yeah.

We supervise, we make sure everyone is safe.

We handle all the departmental policy and making things

sure that things are compliant from that level so that the students can

run the Cultural program themselves with the Cultural mentorship of

their amazing Wiradjuri Echoes team.

And in terms of any spend with their money, I'm certainly

not the one out there dancing.

Miriam O'Rance: No.

So I don't know why I should decide what happens with their money.

A proposal is made, a vote is taken.

Before any spend is done.

Miriam O'Rance: Yep.

With the group.

And if the group, they show up for those meetings and they take

those decisions very seriously.

Miriam O'Rance: Absolutely.

100%. Given that they are receiving donations, we have a

100% transparency, approach to it.

So, I would say that to any, if any teachers do something like this, you

have to be really comfortable about maybe having conversations that you normally

wouldn't have with students, because actually it's theirs and it's not ours.

We just make sure that it can operate.

So, we do have to have conversations with them about where will you

perform, what types of expectations do you have with other students?

How do you want your money spent?

And making sure that you are comfortable, I guess, pushing boundaries.

Mm. Yeah.

It really is like that expanded bus driver role, isn't it?

But the bus is like the structures that have to be in place for a

student dance group to exist.

You are up there pushing the accelerator and get them to where they need to go.

Yeah.

Miriam O'Rance: Yeah.

Um.

That's really lovely.

Duncan Smith OAM: They're, they're a bit like the backseat driver, but I, I, yeah.

I think that's beautiful.

Yeah.

So, just moving to the end of our discussion now, I asked you to all think

about some final thoughts or reflections.

So, what were some of the big lessons learned throughout this project?

What advice can you offer for Creative Arts teachers or any other teacher

listening who are interested in doing this kind of work, collaborating

with Aboriginal students and Community on long-term projects.

We'll go to you first, Anni.

I think if you're gonna do this, you have to be prepared to work

through it slowly and just always remember that as a non-Aboriginal person you are

working as facilitators and advocates, but you are not Knowledge Holders or

Cultural Practitioners, and it's very important to remind yourself of that role.

And take the time that it needs so that it happens right in connection

with your local community ‘cause then you have something that will last.

And while this is our story, it can't be a roadmap, it has to

be different in every context.

But there are some things that can be common.

You know, collaborating with Community.

Student agency.

Setting Protocols.

Taking it slowly until you have to do it fast.

Yeah.

Which is, I think, an important thing too.

Like the idea that it is slow.

Then taking the opportunities when they come up and moving fast with

those when they come up, and then being okay with it ebbing and flowing.

Because I think that sometimes in the department, we're not great at that.

We expect things to happen on our own timeline, and that way they're not

real and authentic, and they only last as long as that timeline's around.

And finally, if you get some feedback, or you get a ‘no’ from the local

community, look at what that's telling you 'cause that can be a gift.

It might seem like a setback, but it actually might just

put you on the right path.

Yeah, lovely.

What do you think, Miriam?

Miriam O'Rance: I think in anything like this, it's really important that

students are the ones who are leading it, that it is their voice, and then that

means that, as a non-Aboriginal woman, I have to feel quite comfortable being

the one to have difficult conversations, advocatI’ve adding for the students,

and if you are someone who's not willing to have those conversations, if you are

not willing to navigate your way through sometimes complex department policies,

if you are not willing to learn and take on the feedback that you get from the

community, if you are not there to listen and to hear, then you're probably not

the right person to be in these roles.

And Jakida, what do you think?

For me as, as an Aboriginal woman, I, my role is to make sure these

kids have their sense of identity and their sense of Culture and and community,

and to keep them at that standard.

For me to be, you know, born into my Culture and to now want to share

and help these kids, you know, learn their Culture, I also have a

sense of responsibility for them.

And, and to help them know their identity and have that sense of strongness inside

of them and when they go out and they have that confidence to perform in front

of other schools and communities, that is that sense of identity for them.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And Duncan, some final thoughts from you.

Duncan Smith OAM: I, I honestly believe governments could take, uh, take

a page out of the Maliyan Mob book because self-determination, uh, is what

Aboriginal people have been calling for the last hundred year or more, to be

self-determined, self, self-managed.

In that sense of we have a, we have a voice, we just need you to listen.

We need to take ownership of our own destiny and guide ourselves

through life with the help of others.

And to me, there's such a stigma on, oh, American rap and American dance

and American this and American that in our communities are unbelievable.

How our kids think that, oh, this is a great thing to cling onto.

But then when you hand them their Culture, and they see their Culture is something

so unique that nobody else has got it, they start to feel that pride and that

and that energy and that, you know, that respect for themselves and the Elders

and the, their community that what we're doing now with the Maliyan Mob and with

James Fallon School is such a foundation for all schools to follow and to show

that self-determination is, is the key to everything for Aboriginal people.

Because we're always being told what to do and how to do it.

And when we get to be self-determined and, and proud of who we are and

start to build these kids up, they start to get that level of respect.

There's been endless, you know, endless things that, that schools and and

government have come up with to say, this is best for Aboriginal people.

You know, what's best for Aboriginal kids?

Aboriginal Culture.

Their connection, their belonging, their uh, identity is way, way more massive than

I think we all realize also how that when you hand them that leadership role, how

they stand up and when they see Elders in Community and younger generations being

proud of who they are and saying, I want to do that, is something that for me,

that longevity, it will last forever.

The Culture's been there for thousands of years.

We just need to give it back to our kids.

Allow them to take leadership on it, allow them to have that self-determination,

and you'll have better students in your schools with Indigenous kids,

you'll have them attending a school more often because they'll feel like

their school is acknowledging who they are, and acknowledging their identity.

And, you know, they, they will want to be at school because of that.

Really lovely.

Thank you.

Thank you so much to you, Duncan and Jakida.

Duncan Smith OAM: Thank you.

Anni, Miriam, and Shanaya.

Thank you.

Miriam O'Rance: Thank you.

Thank you for joining us today to tell the story of Maliyan Mob.

It's been wonderful to hear each of your perspectives on the way that

the collaboration and relationships have developed over time, how you

communicated and developed Cultural Protocols throughout the whole engagement.

If you wanna find out more about Maliyan Mob, their success is

regularly shared on the James Fallon High School Facebook page.

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from

Secondary Curriculum in the Curriculum Directorate of the New

South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff

room through the link in the show notes or email  Jane McDavitt at

creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Advisor, Alex Manton.