Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 4 of People Soup it's Ross McIntosh here.

Professor Ross White is back on the show to talk about his brilliant book, "The Tree That Bends". The ingredients Ross brings to People Soup are his love of sport and his values of equity, creativity, courage and a willingness to move towards what's difficult. You'll hear how he brings these values to life in his work in high performance environments, it's an episode filled with wisdom.

For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.

• The Tree that Bends by Ross G White | Incredible books from Quercus Books
• Ross White on LinkedIn
• Ross White on X
• Ross White on Instagram
• September Issue of the '5 to Thrive' Newsletter
• Dan Harris: The benefits of not being a jerk to yourself | TED Talk
• The clickable collage of concepts
• Strive 2 Thrive Consultancy - led by Ross White
• Strive 2 Thrive on Facebook

Find out more about the Thriving with Psychological Flexibility Course I'll be facilitating with Dr Richard MacKinnon.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487

Ross' new website

Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

Ross on Twitter

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

People Soup Page on Facebook

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

PART ONE

[00:00:06] Ross White: the focus of the work that I do now working in high performance environments where people can be very self critical and they can be very perfectionistic. traits that allow them to persevere and persist, traits that can draw attention to detail and getting things right. And these are attributes that can be rewarded by the environment around people.

[00:00:33] Ross White: If you're in an organization and you have perfectionistic striving, That's something that can be reinforced and encouraged because look, it delivers results for the organization. But I've also seen how detrimental that can be for people's wellbeing. And yeah, I speak from personal experience around that, that there have been struggles in my own life around perfectionism.

[00:01:17] You'll hear how he brings these values to life in his work in high performance environments. It's an episode filled with wisdom.

[00:01:55] I'm delighted to be joining him for the delivery of an Open Access Blended Learning course [00:02:00] in November. It's called Thriving with Psychological Flexibility and it's open to all. And it's just the ticket to support you in landing well in 2025. You'll find all the details in the link in the show notes.

[00:02:26] Ross White, welcome to people soup.

[00:02:33] Ross Mc: Yeah, yeah, you're one of the rare species that has now been on twice, so I'm delighted about that. Now, Ross, you'll be familiar with my research department, and they've had another look at your, your presence in the world and online, and they've Presented me with some summary, facts about you, so I just thought I'd share them with you.

[00:02:54] Ross Mc: It says here, Ross White is a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Queen's University Belfast, where he is the research director of the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology program.

[00:03:28] And P Supers, as you'll know if you've listened to the previous episode with Ross, he's an author, which is why this is his second appearance on the show. This time he's here to talk about his book, The Tree That Bends, How a Flexible Mind Can Help You Thrive. And Ross, I just wanted to add a bit about the type of people you work with in high performance environments.

[00:04:11] And they've come up with one other nugget, which is new to me, so I thought I'd just check this out and see if it's true, because it sounds, sounds a bit exhausting, quite frankly. But it says you're an endurance cyclist, which is something I didn't know about you, so I wonder if that's true. Is, is that true?

[00:04:29] Ross White: That is a thing, both you and I share a name. Ross. And we also share a love of bicycles and cycling and I know that you like to get out on your bike as well. But yes, indeed, I enjoy getting out for long cycles and we're blessed in Ireland to have opportunities to do these, um, sportives as they're called, uh, which can be anything from 90 miles. to 100 miles to potentially 160 miles depending on the event. So yes, this year in May, I did the Tour de Connemara, which was 90 miles around the beautiful countryside in Galway. So yeah, I enjoy getting out, stretching the legs and doing that with other friends who also share the passion for cycling too.

[00:05:24] Ross White: Mm

[00:05:26] Ross White: Yeah, I don't know where they drew the inspiration for that from, huh?

[00:05:32] you're right, I love cycling, but mine is not yet endurance.

[00:05:37] Yeah. I like that.

[00:05:47] Ross White: hmm.

[00:05:54] Now we heard bits about you in your previous interview. I wonder if there's any more you could tell us about your [00:06:00] journey to where you are today. Perhaps any pivotal moments in your life and your career.

[00:06:36] Passion for Sport

[00:06:46] I've been a frustrated athlete and I, when I was younger, I think I frustrated my father who did actually sit me down at one point and say, Ross, why don't you stick with one particular sport and give yourself a chance to actually develop and get better at that? Because I think I wanted to be good before I was average, right?

[00:08:24] I like what I'm doing there, road tested with myself and the various other people that I've supported over this last number of years.

[00:08:33] Ross White: So I really do hope it will help people to thrive in their pursuit of their passion, being able to perform well. but also to continue to feel well. And that's a key focus of the book that we'll maybe come to that too often people sacrifice their wellbeing in pursuit of what they're passionate about.

[00:09:08] Ross Mc: yeah, thank you. It's great to hear about the origin story of, Strive to thrive and your love of sport. What sports were you interested in when your dad set you down?

[00:10:48] Ross Mc: Yeah, and I think that demonstrates how linked they are as well.

[00:10:52] Ross Mc: I know that when I've been out for a bike ride, I come back a better man. it does wonders for my mental health, being out there, exerting myself physically, but also that connection with nature, I found really important.

[00:11:17] out in nature that allow our minds to wander and less focused ways. Then perhaps our attention is whenever we're dedicating ourselves to a particular project or a task. So I think there is something about, yeah, endorphin hit

[00:11:49] Ross Mc: mmm, I love that phrase. Soft fascinations.

[00:12:02] Ross Mc: Ross, what I see in your work is this, you know, This real focus on what matters to you, that equality, I see equality as a foundation of who you are and what you do, and willingness to move towards what's difficult, like how can we address global mental health or the mental health for refugees, and also creativity, finding different ways to do things that will still have an impact.

[00:12:32] Ross White: Well, it's lovely to kind of hear what other people observe and notice in your work. So thank you. Thank you, A, for reflecting on it and B, your willingness to share it. And I think too often we might think these things and notice these things and we not share them. And

[00:12:49] Podcast host that, um, you and your role get that opportunity. And may I say you're very good at doing that. So yeah, those, those qualities do matter to me and personal values are clearly an important element of the work that I do with my clients. And it's something that I have reflected a lot on myself. And yeah, equality,

[00:13:14] Ross White: for me, a more interesting and potentially important concept is equity, right, which is speaking more to the notion of fairness, right? Equality, if we think about it, from um, a more instrumental kind of perspective would be about making the same amount of resource available to all parties. And in reality, we need to recognize that actually resource is distributed, inequitably. That it's about recognizing that some sections of our communities may require additional support relative to others, right? So it's not everything being equal in that sense. It's recognizing that to redress the imbalance, we may need to. allocate [00:14:00] more resource in particular directions at particular times. So that's more about fairness, if you like, as

[00:14:37] You know, I look back at my A level choices, biology, chemistry and physics. What was I thinking? Interesting as they were, I don't think there was that intrinsic motivation, the hunger for learning in those particular subject areas. Maybe more so for me actually in history and in literature, where you do get an opportunity to learn about characters, and you do get an opportunity to shape and be creative.

[00:15:34] here, um, but, uh, I'm prepared to be clunky and not to, uh, rush off following my father's advice, stick at it, right.

[00:15:51] And

[00:15:59] Ross Mc: [00:16:00] yeah, thanks, Ross. Wow, there's a few things there that I didn't know. I did exactly the same biology, chemistry, physics, at A level,

[00:16:08] you survived

[00:16:11] Ross Mc: I survived,

[00:16:13] Ross Mc: but I'm not sure I thrived,

[00:16:16] Ross Mc: And looking back, I too think, why did I not do English literature?

[00:16:22] Ross Mc: Why did I not do music? Because I was a, keen musician.

[00:16:32] children, certainly where I was, and then moved on to the oboe and became pretty good at that.

[00:16:39] Ross Mc: Yet, no, no, even thought of doing that in A Level. It was very much, oh, sciences are good.

[00:17:04] picking up a recorder, potentially for the first time, playing those notes. Right. Oh my goodness.

[00:17:12] Ross Mc: yeah, what a bloody

[00:17:16] Ross Mc: and Tell Aunt Nancy.

[00:17:23] And yes, I often say to my Spanish teacher, because we meet once a week, and online, and I often say to him, words to the effect that some days I just need to keep showing up, when I feel like I can't remember things, or I can't remember the preterite tense, or something like

[00:17:48] And being willing to, to make those mistakes that will help me grow.

[00:18:11] That this connects with an important sense of purpose that you have, right? Communicating in your new locale and being able to meet people in an equitable way, right? Meet them and

[00:18:27] The pursuit of our purpose isn't diminished by challenges

[00:19:11] Ross Mc: Ah, Ross P. Supers, you need to listen to this guy, because this is, this is wisdom. there in plain sight, but we can often be put off by challenges. I think it's from the, the Stoics, or definitely a writer on the Stoics who said, the obstacle is the way.

[00:19:27] Ross Mc: And that struck me earlier this year when, when I was thinking those books I occasionally buy on Spanish grammar are there to be read and the exercises are there to be done, not just to sit on my shelf looking pretty.

[00:19:49] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:19:56] Ross White: Mm hmm.

[00:19:59] Ross White: [00:20:00] Right.

[00:20:00] Ross White: Nor will drifting back to tried and trusted tunes that I can play, play reasonably well, right? If I'm going to stay in what is colloquially called the comfort zone, I'm not going to get the opportunity to acquire new skills to get out beyond that, and I don't really like using the term comfort zone. I prefer using the term conforming zone, We're conforming to rigid. rules and understandings about what I might be capable of or what I think I'm capable of. And I think that leads to us living life small. So I'm really about trying to get beyond that conforming zone into the transforming zone, the opportunity to grow and to acquire new skills, albeit be clunky and Be prepared to kind of struggle in that, but yeah, moving from the conforming zone to the transforming zone.

[00:21:30] Can you give us another example of when you've moved out of your conforming zone into a transforming zone, Ross?

[00:21:37] Ross White: absolutely. When I've been writing, I've made a very purposeful shift over this last three or four years to pivot towards writing for non academic audiences. Trying to engage the public around understanding of psychological concepts. This knowledge is too [00:22:00] important for people not to learn about. And a frustration for me was that as important as academic writing is, so publishing research papers in academic journals, And, um, also publishing manuals for practitioners to help them develop skills as important as that is.

[00:22:39] Five to Thrive

[00:22:43] Five to thrive. So five concepts intended to help people's performance and well being improve. So you have a quote each month. You've got a focus on a psychological concept. You've got a documentary recommendation, a book recommendation, and then an invitation for the reader to put into practice over the next month. 5 to Thrive was about me setting up this newsletter and we're now in our third year,

[00:24:30] Vulnerability

[00:24:41] What if it's not entertaining? What if it's not engaging? What if the, it's still very jargonistic, you know, and that was a challenge for me to try to cut through some of the, dare I call it, psychobabble, where there's a lot of complex terminology that can be used. So finding ways of expressing with clarity. The key key meanings that I was trying to get across. But for me, when you're moving from the conforming zone into that transforming zone, that sense of vulnerability is possibility, right? So vulnerability is possibility. It's about. Being prepared to recognize that that is the gateway through which the transformation can come. It's only going to be possible if you're prepared to be vulnerable enough to get advice and be open to the possibility. It's not always going to be perfect, but you're going to learn.

[00:26:03] Ross White: Yeah, I think that's been a challenge for me and I think that's important for the focus of the work that I do now working in high performance environments where people can be very self critical and they can be very perfectionistic. traits that allow them to persevere and persist, traits that can draw attention to detail and getting things right. And these are attributes that can be rewarded by the environment around people.

[00:26:36] Ross White: If you're in an organization and you have perfectionistic striving, That's something that can be reinforced and encouraged because look, it delivers results for the organization. But I've also seen how detrimental that can be for people's wellbeing. And yeah, I speak from personal experience around that, that there have been struggles in my own life around perfectionism. There have been struggles in my life around self criticism. So to answer your question, I think for many of us, it can be easier sometimes to be compassionate to others than it can be to be compassionate to oneself. And there are lots of fears around compassion, right? And indeed there's a fear of compassion scale that can be used to assess the extent to which people might be fearful about the idea of being compassionate to themselves. Things like, Oh, I'm going to let myself off the hook. or that's soft. And I don't want to be soft.

[00:27:49] and then where will I be, you know, my identity is so tethered to what I produce, right. In terms of outputs and outcomes that [00:28:00] gosh, if I'm compassionate to myself and standards slip. Where will I be then? Who will I be then? Is probably the more important question. So yeah, I think lived experience of recognizing the importance of being compassionate to oneself and that informing the work that I do, with clients.

[00:28:50] Ross White: yeah,

[00:28:56] Ross White: yeah. There's a lovely example of precisely what you've said. Dan Harris, former ABC anchorman in the United States has done a TED talk on precisely that, right? So he, um, did one of these sort of, 360, what do you call them, um, consulting with colleagues

[00:29:20] Ross White: yes, exactly that. And, um, like he was really interested to see what colleagues were going to feedback about him. And then he got the results and he was mortified. Right. Because it wasn't what he anticipated it was going to be. Sure, there were some positive stuff in there that he did anticipate. But, um, he got in touch with actually how difficult a character he could be in the work environment. And, um, how driven he could be and how that had ripples. On colleagues around him, so that encouraged him to embark on a journey of self discovery and trying to [00:30:00] ultimately be a better person. And part of that work did involve attending a retreat. And some of that retreat was focused on loving kindness meditations, helping him to get in touch with, the compassion that he had within him for others and indeed himself.

[00:31:46] right? Which if you like on the Venn diagram would capture a lot of those elements of compassion. but might land better for some high performance individuals, right? That kind of [00:32:00] resilient kindness. so there, there are issues around language, I think, and terminology and ways of expressing those attributes that could be adapted and adjusted so that, um, people can get better, better on board with it.

[00:32:24] Ross White: I think so. Very much. And, um, yeah, I'll send you the link for the show notes,

[00:32:34] Ross Mc: Just going back for a moment to, let me get this right, Five to Thrive.

[00:32:39] Ross Mc: We'll also put the link to that in the show notes because I'd really recommend you signing up. I think there's a moment in my life where I signed up to loads of these things

[00:32:48] Ross Mc: and unfortunately, many of them remain unopened in my inbox, but yours is the one that has endured because it's manageable and It's fun, and there are several books on my shelf as I look round that have been your recommendations.

[00:33:07] Ross Mc: I haven't read them all, but the documentaries as well you find,

[00:33:19] Ross White: That's lovely. And on the Strivetothrive. co. uk webpage, which is, um, the psychological consultancy organization that I founded, we have a page and it does have the compilation of the 28 issues of, um, vibe to thrive that have been published as tiles, if you like.

[00:33:54] Ross Mc: oh mate,

[00:33:58] the [00:34:00] clickable collage of concepts, but it's got all of those psychological concepts that were in each of the five to thrive newsletters over the last 28 months listed. And you can click on the concept. It could be perfectionism and it could be the Dunning Kruger effect.

[00:34:27] and their own experience in them and in sharing that knowledge I think with friends it's enlightening for them because they'll recognize it too. So yeah, I hope that's helpful for people too.

[00:34:44] Ross White: Okay.

[00:34:47] but before we do that I want to ask my traditional question. Has song to announce your arrival in a room?

[00:34:53] Ross Mc: Whether it, whether it is a virtual room, or a real room, or the supermarket, or arriving home.

[00:35:01] Ross Mc: What would your song choice be and why?

[00:35:16] But Alex, Alex Ebert has a song called To Feel Alive, right, and I think that would be a lovely song to have playing in any room, if I'm present or not. But there's beautiful strings in it as well, and it's just a lovely kind of emotional vibe around it. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. So Alex Ebert, To Feel Alive.

[00:35:58] Ross: you'll find all the details [00:36:00] for this episode in the show notes at peoplesoup.

[00:36:22] And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, pea soupers, and bye for now.

[00:36:30] Ross Mc: oh, I had a great nugget there Ross, and it's just gone.

[00:36:37] Ross Mc: No, no, what was it?

[00:36:42] Ross Mc: oh and my Spanish, yeah.