In this episode, Daniel and Nathan dive into the lives and philosophies of Empedocles and Anaxagoras, who serve as stepping stones to understanding Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

They explore Empedocles' idea that all things are composed of four elements and two forces, love and strife. Meanwhile, Anaxagoras introduces the concept of 'mind' as a guiding force over matter, sparking deeper philosophical questions.

The discussion ends by discussing why Socrates and Aristotle were excited but then disappointed in the answers Empedocles and Anaxagoras gave.

00:00 Introduction and Overview

00:46 Empedocles: The Four Elements

05:35 Empedocles' Life and Legends

13:30 Anaxagoras: Mind Over Matter

18:09 Anaxagoras' Contributions and Critiques

24:57 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

Good afternoon Daniel.

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Nathan, good to see you again.

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Good to see you too.

4

I'm excited for today.

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We're approaching Socrates, but before

we get there, we've got a couple other

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men that we're going to be looking at.

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Right.

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And they're going to be in a way,

stepping stones to Socrates and Plato

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and Aristotle, the big three, but each

one has their own place in contribution.

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And to me, at least

they're very interesting.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So today, who are we looking at?

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I'm not sure if this is going to

be a one episode or two, depends

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on how much time we end up spending

on each one, but we're going to be

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looking a little bit briefly at two

philosophers, Empedocles and Anaxagoras.

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Okay.

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You're going to have

to spell those for us.

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I will.

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And then a little bit more fully at a

group of philosophers called the Adamists.

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That's what we're going to be looking at.

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Okay.

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Sounds good.

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Sounds good.

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So Empedocles.

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Empedocles.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Spell that for us, please.

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Empedocles.

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Empedocles.

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E-M-P-E-D-O-C-L-E-S, and he is a

Greek living in what's now called

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Sicily, around four 90 to four 30 bc.

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And again, a lot of these dates

are a little fuzzy on either end.

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Yeah.

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But around four 90 to

four 30 BC Okay, gotcha.

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He's the first guy.

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Who's the second guy?

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Annus.

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Okay.

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And are we taking these two

guys together or you wanna start

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with No, we'll do one at a time.

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Okay.

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Let's start with Edes then.

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Edes.

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And by the way, you really

should name your next child after

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while we were thinking about it.

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Okay.

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Empathically.

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So remember that he's coming

after Parmenides and we talked

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about Parmenides last time.

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He was a very influential thinker.

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He argued that being is one thing

and one thing only in this one,

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this being is all and everything.

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It is eternal.

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It's unchanging.

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It's unmoving.

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It's eternal because it's impossible

for being to come into being from non

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being, because non being is not a thing.

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It's unchanging because being

cannot be non being, so it can't

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change from being to non being.

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It's only one thing.

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And it can't move either, because

there's nothing outside of itself.

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There's no space or vacuum

that it could move into.

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Because if there was something outside

of itself, it would be part of the One.

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And if it's not part of the

One, then it's no thing.

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It's not something like empty space.

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It's literally no thing.

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And no things you can't

talk about or think about.

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It's non category B.

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Okay, hold up, hold up.

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I gotta get another cup of

coffee before this conversation.

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Well, we're just kind of summarizing him.

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Yeah.

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And the main thing to take away

that Parmenides taught that all

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is one, and this one is physical.

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He said it was spherical.

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And motion and change then are illusions.

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So one of the things we talked

about how this is in some

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ways a triumph of rationalism.

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Because obviously, you don't see that

as a result of your senses, right?

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Things seem to move and change.

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But rather, it's a triumph

of the rationality over

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sense experience, as it were.

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So he might be called the first great

rationalist, with a capital R at least.

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So, he's just totally using his mind

and his own rationality to get here.

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What's the word?

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There's no becoming.

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There's only being.

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There's no change.

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Only being.

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Yes.

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No becoming.

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Okay.

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Right.

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And so is Empedocles building off of that?

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Yes, actually he is.

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Is he a disciple of Parmenides?

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I don't know that he would call himself

that, but he's certainly responding to and

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answering while still maintaining the idea

of oneness, at least as he understood it.

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So he wants to also say that

all things are one in a sense.

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Yes.

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But then he's also going to talk about

how this one is actually made of four

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different roots or elements, as it were.

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And this is, this is called monism again.

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Is that correct?

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Well, monism is the idea that

reality is only one thing.

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And so, yes, Parmenides would

definitely be a monist in that regard.

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Empedocles, uh, maybe not.

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Depends on how you want to define

that or how you want to press that.

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So he's, he's saying that it's one thing,

but it's kind of made up of four parts.

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Yeah, four elements.

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All reality is made up of

four different elements.

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Let me guess.

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Earth, wind, fire and air.

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You know, air and wind are pretty close.

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say it again.

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Earth, wind, fire, water.

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Is that it?

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Yeah.

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Dig and dig.

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Well, that's, that's surprising given

the discussions we've had in the past.

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Right.

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So he's kind Yeah, he's so, he's

bringing a lot of ideas together then.

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He is, and really, he's the first one

that I know of to really categorize

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and formalize those four elements.

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So, water, earth, wind, fire.

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So the others talked about them, and I

think it was in the Greek mind already,

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these are the four basic things.

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But he's the first one to formalize

those as this is all reality.

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So where he's coming from though, and this

is a little bit different than Parmenides.

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He's taking the opposite approach.

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Parmenides argued that because being

is one, that change is impossible.

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He's going the other way

around, and Pettigrew argues

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from the opposite direction.

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We know that objects change.

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We know that objects cease to be.

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So they must be composed of

material particles, which are

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themselves indestructible,

but individual things aren't.

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So, there's something within them

that's indestructible, but they aren't.

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Oh, okay.

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I think I, I think I

see where this is going.

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Yeah.

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Well, by the way, I don't often

give the background of the lives

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of these philosophers too much.

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Here and there we have, but we have

to talk about some of the story of

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Empedocles life because yeah, he had

a lot of great legends about him.

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Really?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So, he claimed to be a god.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Not the God, but a God.

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That's nice.

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Yeah.

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He said he was crowned with laurels and

praise wherever he went and that people

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were worshiping him and begging him to do

miracles, which he claimed he could do.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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So he did all this stuff.

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He really cultivated this image

of the super special spiritual

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being or intellectual being.

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He wore long flowing hair.

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He had a bright purple robe on

that was pretty rare back then.

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And then he would also

wear bronzed sole sandals.

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Yeah.

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What's What, just, just cause he wanted

his shoes to be a little bit weightier?

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Yeah, it's all image, man.

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It's all image.

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Is there any I mean, you don't

have bronzed sole sandals.

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Yeah, that's true.

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I don't.

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Nobody does, except for

So for this guy, right?

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So I know with a lot of these guys,

there's a lot of limited writing on them,

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but any validity to his miraculous claims?

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I mean, probably not.

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There's not any firsthand evidence.

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So a lot of times what you have with

all this and what makes it distinct

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from say what happens in the New

Testament is you don't have any

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firsthand evidence from that time period.

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Uh, you have legends that are first

recorded centuries, many centuries later.

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Oh, so we don't, this is

not his autobiography.

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This is, this is the oral tradition

passed down and recorded centuries later.

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Okay.

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And the same thing with especially,

uh, Pythagoras, he had all kinds

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of legends about him, but many

of them were written in his case,

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like seven or 800 years afterwards.

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So.

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Yeah, he, he was the, the

man, the myth, and the legend.

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That's right.

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I don't know if that got into the episode,

but I remember talking about it off air.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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He had his own.

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One other thing, according to

the legend, he really wanted

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to prove that he was divine.

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So he didn't want anyone to find his body.

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So approaching death, he

climbed Mount Etna, a volcano.

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And threw himself in so that no one would

ever say, here he is, he's dead now.

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And this was given away though.

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This was exposed when one of

his bronze sandals was found

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near the rim of Mount Etna.

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No way.

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That's the legend.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Like I said, it's too good

to really pass up here.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's pretty good.

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So here's a guy, a very humble stature.

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Yeah.

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And he does have some

very interesting ideas.

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He does.

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So, for him, reality is going

to consist of four elements,

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or roots, and then two forces.

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Okay.

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So, you've got the four elements, right?

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You've got earth, you've got

water, you've got wind or

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spirit, and then you've got fire.

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Well, how do they change

into different things?

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How do they get mixed together?

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And he gives a little bit of

explanation about that, but the

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main thing that's important here.

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That is the mechanism he gives for the

whole shebang, the big picture of how

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the forces that brought these things to

the present state and then changed them.

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And for him, there are two main forces and

he called them love and hate or strife.

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I've seen it translated both ways.

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So love and hate or strife.

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These are the two forces that change

all those four elements into the

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physical things we see around us.

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Hmm.

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Wow.

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Let's see here if I've got a quote or two.

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Keep in mind though that he is

using these words as a metaphor.

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Really love is a metaphor for the

binding force and hate or stripe is

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a metaphor for the dividing force.

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Like a magnet that is either going

to bring opposites to, I don't know.

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Actually that's not a bad analogy

because it's a physical force.

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It's not primarily an emotion

or even a thought or a choice.

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It's a physical force.

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So, he imagines that there are

these periodic world cycles.

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And at the beginning of the cycle, there

is no universe or world like we have.

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All the elements are mixed

up together because love, the

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binding force, predominates.

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So it's almost like the Big Bang,

everything is encased in one

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infinitely small singularity and

then it begins to pull apart.

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Because hate, or strife, the opposite

force, begins to move and separate them.

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And so the four elements separate,

parts of them combine into the

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material things that we see.

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Trees, clouds, people.

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These are all temporary things,

creatures that come and go.

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But the elements and the

cosmic cycle go on forever.

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So reality is four elements which

are eternal and then you have the

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two forces, the binding and the

repelling, and they work together

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in this cosmic cycle to bring about

individual things that come and go.

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See this is so fascinating to me

because I'm thinking about chemistry.

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I'm trying to remember

back from high school.

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Matter is made up of these elements.

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I mean we have more of

them in the periodic table.

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But all those change and put together

make up matter and over 2, 500

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years ago, and he's thinking of

this kind of stuff Philosophically.

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Yeah, right.

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Is that accurate?

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I mean, I think about this the right way.

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Yeah, I think so I think you're right that

he's got an intuitive sense that there are

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forces involved here That could be pulling

things together or pushing them apart

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And we still see that in the atom, right?

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Yeah.

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There are forces at work

that do the same thing.

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And everything is made

up of base elements.

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And he says four.

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I mean, his four makes sense because he's

not working in a vacuum, but he's building

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off of the guys who've gone before him

who've said, yeah, everything's water,

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everything's fire, everything's earth.

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But he's combining them

together and saying, yeah,

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yeah, yeah, there is one thing.

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We'll call it matter in English,

but he's saying, but it's made up

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of those four that are changing in.

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I don't know.

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It feels like chemistry to me.

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There is that.

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And Aristotle, when he's evaluating

all these philosophers, he praises

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Empedocles for realizing that a

theory of reality like this not only

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has to identify the elements of the

universe like some of the others did.

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Uh, previous philosophers did, but

also explain the development and

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intermingling of these forces into

the world that we see around us.

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But Aristotle was less impressed with

the fact that there is no explanation

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beyond the physical and the mechanistic.

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For example, why, why do love and hatred,

these forces do the things that they do?

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Why do they work like this?

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Why are they here?

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Why do they exist?

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Why do the elements themselves exist?

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What brings about this cosmic cycle?

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All of these are left unanswered.

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And so Aristotle viewed this as

an advance, but at the same time.

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It didn't really go far enough in talking

about the meaning of what's going on.

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Just giving an outward

mechanistic explanation.

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I, I can totally see how these guys

are laying the groundwork for Aristotle

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and Aristotle's asking those deeper

questions of why, then I could see how

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he's, he's considered one of the greats.

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Right.

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And one of the things that he will do then

is develop a different kinds of causation.

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And for him, all these guys are

simply giving one kind of causation.

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Right.

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When there's more than one.

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Gotcha.

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So anyway, that is Empedocles.

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The next philosopher also

tries to give some sort of

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answer to what's going on here.

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He's going about it a little bit different

way, but in the same mindset or the

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same, working through the same issues.

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His name is Anaxagoras.

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Anaxagorating.

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How do you spell his name?

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All right.

318

A N A X A G O R A S.

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All right.

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Thanks.

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Anaxagoras, and he is about 500 to 428.

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Interestingly, he apparently was born

a Persian and perhaps he originally

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came to Greece as part of the Persian

army, but then he soon planted

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himself in Athens, which was going

to be the center of philosophy.

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So all the big three are going to be

there, many others besides them, but

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he's the first philosopher to settle

in Athens and do his work there.

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So, interesting, you got a Persian

settling in Athens doing Greek philosophy.

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Mm hmm.

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His name, I know this is

kind of random, but his name,

330

he's got a Greek name though.

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Yeah.

332

So maybe that wasn't his original name?

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Uh, that's, that's a good

question, I don't know that.

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Probably.

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Okay, is he, is he contemporaries with?

336

Um, and appendix please.

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Okay.

338

Empedocles.

339

Empedocles.

340

Yeah, pretty much.

341

Okay.

342

There's a, again, the dates are pretty

fuzzy, but they're rough contemporaries.

343

Might be a little bit later.

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Okay.

345

And do they, in the, in the literature

that shows up after them, are they

346

interacting with each other's ideas much?

347

Probably not these two because of,

because they were contemporaries and

348

they're living in very different parts.

349

Of the Greek Empire.

350

So, I don't know, but I would guess

they probably did not read each other.

351

Okay.

352

Gotcha.

353

Okay, so tell us about Anaxagoras.

354

Is that how you say his name?

355

Anaxagoras?

356

Anaxagoras.

357

Anaxagoras.

358

Yeah.

359

Forgive me, audience.

360

None of these names are,

they're just some given used to.

361

Maybe you're like me and these are

the first time you're hearing these

362

words and they're hearing these names.

363

Try saying it five times fast and

you'll, you'll, Um, have empathy for

364

the seat that I'm sitting in right now.

365

All right.

366

And he's going to be famous.

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Anaxagoras is going to be famous

for one idea, mind over matter

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or mind controlling matter.

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So let's talk about how we get there.

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Okay.

371

So here is his account of the

beginning of the universe.

372

And I'm going to quote here

and I'm quoting from his Greek.

373

Um, so the translation is going to

be a little rough in English, quote,

374

all things were together, infinite

in number and infinite in smallness.

375

For the small two was infinite.

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While all things were together, nothing

was recognizable because of its smallness.

377

Everything lay under air and ether

and those, those were both infinite.

378

And then he talks about the

primeval pebble, as it were.

379

All things were together, this

infinitely small pebble or.

380

Singularity, we might call it today,

the cosmologists would call it.

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Uh, this primeval pebble began to

rotate, throwing off the surrounding

382

ether, or surrounding ether and

air, and forming out of them the

383

stars and the sun and the moon.

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The rotation caused a separation of

dense from rare, of hot from cold,

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dry from wet, and bright from dark.

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But the separation was never complete.

387

And to this day there remains in every

single thing a portion of everything else.

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So there's a little whiteness

in what is black, a little

389

cold in what is hot and so on.

390

And things are named after the,

what things are named after the

391

item that is dominant in them.

392

So everything has a

portion of everything else.

393

A toad has a portion of a horse

and, uh, your fern over there has a

394

portion of a banana because in his

viewpoint, unless everything had

395

a little bit of something else, it

couldn't change into something else.

396

But that's not really

what's important, obviously.

397

That was not his contribution.

398

His contribution was this idea that

all matter was infinitely small, very

399

much like the theory of the Big Bang,

and then it began to spin, rotate,

400

and not only the elements or the bits

of matter, but even The categories

401

of, of physics that we would say

today, uh, hot and cold, dry and wet.

402

These all spun out of that as well.

403

So in, in some way it foreshadows

the big bang cosmology.

404

Interesting.

405

Yeah.

406

All right.

407

That's awesome.

408

Very neat.

409

Now, his contribution, though, is

not that much as the next part.

410

He asks this question, What makes

everything begin to rotate and

411

cause all these things to form?

412

What has power over this and guides them?

413

So he's asking a little bit

deeper question, not just what

414

is, but what makes it happen.

415

I was wondering about that.

416

As you're saying, I was like, I wonder

if he's going to get to the why exactly.

417

And this is what made Socrates so

excited when he, he began reading

418

this, he said, this, this is like.

419

A silver man among a group of drunkards.

420

He's asking the big question

about what makes it all happen.

421

So do you want to know his answer?

422

I that's on next episode, right?

423

No, he gives a very, Important

and influential answer.

424

And he says, what controls it all is mind.

425

Mind.

426

Yeah.

427

The Greek word is noose.

428

So we get, many modern words from that.

429

So yeah, so the Greek word is noose

mind, not quite equivalent with brain,

430

physical organ, but more like we

would use the term mind or thought.

431

Thought, rationality, intellect.

432

Is that kind of all

wrapped up in that term?

433

Yes.

434

Okay.

435

Yes.

436

And so, okay, that's interesting.

437

So, I is he pointing at an

intelligent being like a, God figure?

438

No.

439

Okay.

440

And that's where things start

to go off the rail a little bit.

441

number one, he, he views this,

noose somehow as corporeal.

442

So it has some sort of a physical

existence, which surprised

443

me when I, when I read that.

444

but also the mind does not create the

material, doesn't create the elements

445

of the forces that separate that.

446

It just controls it.

447

Now, the reason this is important

is because now for the first time.

448

Um, you have the idea.

449

We not only have what is, but

there is a guiding force that's

450

overseeing what happens within this

universe or world that we find.

451

And it's a rational principle,

it's a rational thing, it's a mind.

452

So that idea that it's not all random,

it's not just here, but someone but

453

there is actually a rational mind

that's, that's controlling and guiding

454

things presumably towards some set end.

455

And that is.

456

Kind of revolutionary.

457

Hmm.

458

So I'm trying to understand this.

459

Okay.

460

So totally, you said corporal, but not

personal, just sort of intelligence.

461

That's meta.

462

Yeah, it is.

463

As far as I understand anyway, he does

not view the mind as the mind of a person.

464

Okay.

465

that's where I'm kind of hung up.

466

Right.

467

And I am too.

468

I don't know how you would get there.

469

I mean, I think it's great then he

has the idea that things are guided

470

by rational principles, but without

a person behind the mind, there just

471

are a lot of unanswered questions.

472

And in fact, that's what Socrates

says was his great disappointment.

473

He's like, man, I got all excited

reading this because, oh, here, lastly,

474

someone's going to give, not just

a mechanistic explanation, tell why

475

things are, are working the way they

do, but it says when it came down to it.

476

Um, it was just, again, a mechanistic

explanation of a little bit deeper

477

kind, but it still wasn't answering

the big questions for Socrates, man.

478

I know.

479

Always let down.

480

Yeah.

481

That was the story of his life actually.

482

but I see the way that it's,

digging a little bit deeper.

483

It is about to find water and

Socrates is going to say that he's

484

found it more so in play though.

485

But he's a set in the plate.

486

So I didn't play.

487

I don't know.

488

I don't know.

489

He was in the baseball.

490

Yeah.

491

Yeah.

492

I don't know.

493

Yeah.

494

Okay.

495

Anyway, Socrates says, look,

it's kind of like this.

496

So Socrates, according to Plato

anyway, and Plato is probably

497

putting words in his mouth.

498

Maybe Socrates is going to

die for his beliefs and the

499

charges labeled against him.

500

He didn't have to.

501

So he chose to stay in

Athens and face that death.

502

And Socrates, according to Plato

anyway, when he talks about Anaxagoras,

503

he says, it's almost like Anaxagoras

is saying, if you asked him why

504

Socrates is spending his last days

in prison instead of fleeing, he's

505

saying, well, all Socrates actions are

performed with reason and intelligence.

506

So he ordered his body to sit there

and Socrates point is like, well,

507

that's true enough, but that doesn't

really answer the question, right?

508

What's the mind choosing to think and

value and do and purpose and what goal is

509

there that's organized the things towards

and that and his agorist doesn't touch.

510

And that's why he's disappointed

in, so, there's a lot of

511

unanswered questions here.

512

so again, these guys are just,

primarily talking about what is,

513

but not really talking about how.

514

Yes.

515

Or why, I guess.

516

Yeah, he's trying to give a rational

principle, but again, he doesn't

517

give an explanation for, well, first

of all, why is the mind doing this?

518

Towards what end?

519

But second, where does

the matter come from?

520

The mind doesn't create it,

so the matter is eternal.

521

That's one of the things he teaches.

522

Where does it come from and for

him is simply exists without

523

origin or explanation and he's

content to just leave it there Yes.

524

Yeah, we want to know why

525

why is there something

rather than nothing?

526

Mm That is one of the fundamental

questions of philosophy and in the

527

debate of any inquiry button, but

also related to this if the mind

528

doesn't make the matter, how can we

know that it can actually control it?

529

I mean, think about it.

530

A five year old has a mind,

but they can't make matter do

531

whatever he or she wants, right?

532

So they can control some parts

of it but it's very limited.

533

So how do we know that this mind

who did not create the matter,

534

but simply sits alongside of it

actually has the power to direct it?

535

Or at least directed towards certain

ends, there's no answer for that.

536

that makes sense to why the mind

had to be corporal to me, I guess.

537

Why is that?

538

it has to have some sort of way to

physically interact with the mind.

539

Is that, does that make sense or maybe,

yeah, I'm not sure why he said the mind

540

is corporeal other than maybe for him, the

category of, of a mind that is not bodily

541

wasn't even on his radar screen.

542

Hmm.

543

This is tough to try to understand.

544

so anyway, you have two stepping stones.

545

You have Empedocles teaching that reality

consists of four elements and two forces.

546

Working within this cosmic cycle.

547

And then you've got an exaggerates

reality consists of matter and mind and

548

the mind controls the matter, but neither

one really answers the more fundamental

549

questions of why these things exist, how

they got here and what purpose they, have.

550

Now the next group that we're going

to look at in the next episode are

551

going to take some of these ideas.

552

in a further and radical direction

and, they will be the first ones

553

to , articulate and adopt an entirely

materialistic viewpoint in a sense.

554

And we're going to see

some of the implications.

555

And the reason that's important

is because, many people today

556

are operating on that same idea

that reality is only matter.

557

So yeah, we'll talk about that next time.

558

Cool.

559

Well, I'm looking forward to it.

560

Yeah.

561

Thanks.