Episode 20 - The Power of a Proof of Concept, with Mark Stewart Iverson

In this episode of the Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast, hosts Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt talk with filmmaker Mark Stewart Iverson, diving deeper into his work and approach to filmmaking. Mark shares insights into his upcoming film 'Prodigal Sons,' a drama set during the Vietnam war era focusing on the divergent paths of two brothers. He discusses the film's development, from a script penned by a long-time friend, funded through a personal inheritance with divine inspiration, to its production aiming for a doc-style, 16mm film aesthetic. Iverson elaborates on the Proof of Concept (PoC) production, highlighting challenges and opportunities during the SAG strike and the inclusive effort from the cast and crew who believed in the project's potential. He underscores the collaborative nature of filmmaking, from production through to casting, and the strategic use of PoCs in pitching to investors and studios.

They also discuss the importance of humor in filmmaking, regardless of genre, and Iverson's approach to embedding comedy into scripts to deepen emotional impact and character relatability. He emphasizes character-driven writing as fundamental in crafting engaging narratives, offering insights into his screenwriting classes and methodologies. The episode includes:

• Welcome and Introduction
• Diving Deep into 'Prodigal Sons'
• The Creative Process and Collaboration
• Shooting Style and Production Insights
• Financial Aspects and Production Challenges
• The Power of a Proof of Concept
• Navigating the Industry with a Concept Film
• Industry Relationships and Collaboration
• Casting for a Proof of Concept
• The Role of Comedy in Screenwriting
• Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Upon graduating from UCLA Film School, Mark Stewart Iverson co created, co wrote, and co directed Hulu's former number one web series, Dorm Life. The hit comedy show racked up three Webby Awards, two Streamy nominations, and two W3 Gold Awards. After a spiritual transformation, Mark founded MSI Films with the production of his original screenplay, the award winning For Prophet, marking his feature directorial debut. Mark currently serves as the creative producer for the sustainability docu series, Rivers Are Life, on the Weather Channel, having produced 16 episodes in 8 countries across 5 continents.

For Prophet Website: https://forprophetfilm.com/

For Prophet on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forprophetfilm

For Prophet on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forprophetfilm/

MSI Films Website: https://msifilms.com/

MSI Films on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/msifilms

MSI Films on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/msifilms/

The Faith & Family Filmmakers podcast helps filmmakers who share a Christian worldview stay in touch, informed, and inspired. Releasing new episodes every week, we interview experts from varying fields of filmmaking; from screenwriters, actors, directors, and producers, to film scorers,  talent agents, and distributors. 

It is produced and hosted by Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt , and is brought to you by the Faith & Family Filmmakers Association

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Copyright 2024 Ivan Ann Productions

Jaclyn: 00:00:00

Welcome back to Faith and Family Filmmakers Podcast, I'm Jaclyn, and Geoff's with me, and today we have Mark Stewart Iverson with us.

Jaclyn: 00:00:08

And we've already spoken with him but for the members only portion, we're going to get into some deeper thIngs.

Jaclyn: 00:00:13

We're going to start off by talking about Prodigal Sons, his upcoming film.

Jaclyn: 00:00:18

We already spoke about For Profit in the previous section, but now we want to get into learning more about this next one, because it's nothing like the other one.

Jaclyn: 00:00:26

So tell me about prodigal sons.

Mark: 00:00:28

Yeah.

Mark: 00:00:28

Very exciting project It is something I'm producing and directing, but it was a script that was brought to me from a friend of mine who actually I got to know at UCLA So I've known her for a very long time, and she'd been working on this script since kind of college.

Mark: 00:00:46

It's been like her one magnum opus that she's been doing drafts and drafts and drafts over the years.

Mark: 00:00:50

It's how she learned screenwriting.

Mark: 00:00:52

She comes from, uh, from the stage.

Mark: 00:00:54

She was actually in the musical theater program at UCLA, and she acted in several of my things, including she has a small role in For Profit, and she acted in a lot of my, web series stuff and other things, and she has brought me the script over the years, and I've given some notes.

Mark: 00:01:10

And then this last year, she was like, unfortunately, her grandfather had passed away and she had come into some of the inheritance and she felt called by God in prayer to put some of that toward s Prodigal Sons.

Mark: 00:01:25

She called me, I was like, yeah, I'm thinking about this.

Mark: 00:01:26

What are you thinking?

Mark: 00:01:27

I'm like, well, I'm directing.

Mark: 00:01:28

Right.

Mark: 00:01:28

And she's like, well, that's why I called.

Mark: 00:01:29

So that's how that, came to be.

Mark: 00:01:31

She's been working on the script for a while, like I said.

Mark: 00:01:33

It's in Vietnam times, late 60s, it's about a southern farmer who has two sons who are taking divergent paths with the war.

Mark: 00:01:44

One of them dodges the draft and moves up to Canada, And, then the other one enlists and goes and fights overseas.

Mark: 00:01:51

And, uh, it follows the parable, in a, in a structural sense, but obviously it's a, you know, modernized 20th century telling of it, and because the parable itself is, you know, not very long anyway, it, goes into different details and different, uh, creation of the characters and things like that...

Mark: 00:02:09

Interpretation.

Mark: 00:02:10

It's a great script.

Mark: 00:02:11

A very powerful drama, and then obviously has a lot of faith inherently, in the story.

Mark: 00:02:16

And it's something that I've been really excited to do because, well, I've been producing it as well, but I'm directing.

Mark: 00:02:21

So it's not something that I, uh, am, you know, writing and directing, it's something where I'm interpreting her words, and, it's very much a collaboration.

Mark: 00:02:29

And, you know, us being both faith centric people, we 'd continue to go back to, okay, What, does God want for this?

Mark: 00:02:35

What, does the parable say?

Mark: 00:02:37

But she really wanted me to come in and, and have my take on it.

Mark: 00:02:40

And that's what I did.

Mark: 00:02:41

You know, it's my, uh, vision to the way we're shooting it on a, doc style, documentary style, making it look like it's 16 millimeter film.

Mark: 00:02:50

The way we shot the proof of concept...

Mark: 00:02:53

we shot 15 pages already and we have a little teaser and we're finishing up the short film as a proof of concept.

Mark: 00:02:59

And, uh, the way we shot it was no marks for the actors, We, really let things play out.

Mark: 00:03:04

We really tried to have life breakout on camera, you know, and, it's something where there's, there's definitely a lot of productions that do this, style.

Mark: 00:03:12

We kept going back to Friday Night Lights, the movie and the show, the way they shot that was multiple cameras, no marks for actors, you know, letting things happen organically.

Mark: 00:03:21

Other films as well, but it's something where, that was my vision as a director, I think it's something that we've really implemented throughout, uh, and we want to do for the feature, we want to shoot it on film, ideally multiple cameras, same style.

Mark: 00:03:35

We shot three days for the proof of concept in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Mark: 00:03:38

And it was just one of the best productions I've ever been a part of.

Mark: 00:03:42

We had such great actors.

Mark: 00:03:44

We had such great crew.

Mark: 00:03:45

My DP came from Atlanta and he crushed it.

Mark: 00:03:48

Credible, credible people, credible creatives.

Mark: 00:03:51

We shot during the, SAG strike, so it was something where...

Mark: 00:03:54

Because it was a short project set.

Mark: 00:03:56

We did it SAG, but all the actors were just pumped to be working, you know?

Mark: 00:04:00

And the crew too, you know, We had a lot of people who were taking pay cuts too because like this is a great project.

Mark: 00:04:05

This is a great script Not very many productions are happening right now and I just want to be a part of a great production.

Mark: 00:04:11

Like, our DP actually, God love him, he was brought on to be the first camera operator.

Mark: 00:04:16

He's a great camera operator.

Mark: 00:04:16

That's where he makes most of his money, in Atlanta.

Mark: 00:04:19

At first we were talking about him being the first camera operator and the DP.

Mark: 00:04:22

And the more and more we got into it, the more and more he's like, you know what, I really want to sit back.

Mark: 00:04:25

I really want to get another, camera operator.

Mark: 00:04:27

And we're looking at the budget.

Mark: 00:04:28

I'm like, we don't, we don't have another $3, 000 for another camera operator.

Mark: 00:04:32

He ended up foregoing his fee, and just deciding, you know what?

Mark: 00:04:36

I love this script so much, I love this project so much, I have such a vision for this as the DP.

Mark: 00:04:41

I'm just going to do this for free.

Mark: 00:04:42

He paid for his own flight like, God just really moved in this project big time, already.

Mark: 00:04:47

And, and we're only in the beginning stages with the proof of concept.

Mark: 00:04:50

So, the plan is that it's going to be my next feature.

Mark: 00:04:52

We're really moving forward this year with setting more meetings and having more conversations.

Mark: 00:04:57

We've already had lots of conversations with lots of studios and distributors.

Mark: 00:05:00

Everybody's very excited.

Mark: 00:05:01

I know when I sent it to you guys you guys too were like, wow, the production value is just popping.

Mark: 00:05:06

And that's...

Jaclyn: 00:05:07

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:05:07

Well, the teaser looks like it's already made.

Jaclyn: 00:05:10

It looks like it's a completed film, and I guess that's kind of the purpose of it, right?

Jaclyn: 00:05:14

So, my question is, where can I watch this?

Jaclyn: 00:05:18

I want to watch it.

Jaclyn: 00:05:19

It, it draws you in, it makes you interested in the story, you like the characters, you get a sense for what you would be, sitting down to watch.

Jaclyn: 00:05:27

What does, a concept, like a trailer or the, proof of concept, what does that cost.

Jaclyn: 00:05:33

And maybe for people that are thinking, okay, so if this is part of the process of me connecting with an investor, what am I looking at?

Mark: 00:05:41

Well, short films can cost, you know, as much as you want them to, or as little as you want them to.

Mark: 00:05:45

With this one, we didn't want to skimp on the production value, so we ended up uh, five figures.

Mark: 00:05:51

for sure, you know, kind of, low to mid five figures.

Mark: 00:05:54

But it was something where she, the writer, and I too, we really wanted to make sure that when people saw it, they were like,

Mark: 00:06:00

we need to see the feature.

Mark: 00:06:01

Like we, we want it.

Mark: 00:06:02

to feel like the feature was already done.

Mark: 00:06:03

That we're just taking a slice out of it.

Mark: 00:06:05

And so in order to do that, you do need to put a couple of dollars in.

Mark: 00:06:09

I always say with shorts or even proofs of concept, you, know, I think, especially nowadays, unless you can do a lot of the post work yourself, unless you have people who are willing to work for little to no money.

Mark: 00:06:21

If you want to make sure and get high quality actors or, especially SAG actors, or if you want to get high quality crew, you do need to spend a little money.

Mark: 00:06:29

So I always say with a short 10, 000 is like really a minimum.

Mark: 00:06:32

Especially when you, when you factor in post production...

Mark: 00:06:35

unless you're editing, and VFXing, and color grading, and sound editing, post could be 10, 000 for some productions, even short, projects.

Mark: 00:06:44

But we shot three days, 15 pages.

Mark: 00:06:47

Um, and everybody was taking a pay cut.

Mark: 00:06:49

Like, it was definitely not something where we were paying everybody, what they're totally worth.

Mark: 00:06:55

We couldn't skimp too much.

Mark: 00:06:56

Like Locations ended up being a little bit more than we thought because we needed things that looked like 1969.

Mark: 00:07:00

And production, you know, design too.

Mark: 00:07:02

Like we, we got props for like a quarter of what we would during non strike times, but still we needed to get props that were in the sixties and seventies.

Mark: 00:07:10

So it was certainly something where, my producing partners who we brought on the film and helped source a lot of crew from Atlanta and things like that.

Mark: 00:07:17

They kept telling us, like, you guys are making a 100, 000 short film.

Mark: 00:07:21

If you were to pay everybody what they're worth, and, you know, but you were getting such good deals and it was during the strikes, or even, all the actors, it was, favored nations.

Mark: 00:07:30

Everybody was getting paid the same scale, for SAG.

Mark: 00:07:33

So It was something where we, were able to make essentially 100, 000 short for, a fraction of that.

Mark: 00:07:39

You know, the proof of concept I think has become something where it's...

Mark: 00:07:43

You really got to have something.

Mark: 00:07:44

You got to have something, because unless you just want to write something to let somebody else produce, somebody else direct it, somebody else finance, somebody else do all the other make the movie happen work, and you just want to write the script, it's very difficult nowadays to just say, hey, look, I have a great script.

Mark: 00:08:02

And look, I have a great pitch deck.

Mark: 00:08:04

It's like, okay, great.

Mark: 00:08:06

what's it gonna actually be?

Mark: 00:08:08

What's it gonna be on the silver screen, or on the streamer?

Mark: 00:08:10

What's it gonna look like?

Mark: 00:08:12

It used to be just having a great script might have been enough.

Mark: 00:08:15

It seems to me that whether you're going the studio route, Uh, or classic distribution route e where you're actually getting a deal from a distributor studio to, you know, make the movie and put out the movie.

Mark: 00:08:26

Whether you're going that route or you're piecemealing the independent financing all yourself, it is really important to have something that says, this is what we can do with this.

Mark: 00:08:35

This is what we want to do with this.

Mark: 00:08:37

This is what it's going to be.

Mark: 00:08:39

And that's, I'm so glad when you guys said, Oh yeah, it looked like the movie was already done.

Mark: 00:08:42

That was the idea was that we wanted people to respond to it.

Mark: 00:08:44

Be like, I want this movie done.

Mark: 00:08:46

Like this is already there.

Mark: 00:08:47

This is, this is hitting my heart and hitting my soul and hitting, hitting my eyes and hitting my ears so well that we want to put millions of dollars into this period piece drama with, spiritual elements.

Mark: 00:08:59

Um, but I think, any time you're trying to make a feature film, and it happens all the time too in, big time filmmaking where you go shoot some tests.

Mark: 00:09:08

It's a reason why you do test, screening or, testing for actors, You know, it's like, you want to see what the chemistry is going to be.

Mark: 00:09:13

You want to put people together.

Mark: 00:09:14

You want to, you know, shoot the lens you actually want to shoot it on.

Mark: 00:09:17

You want to color grade it the way.

Mark: 00:09:18

you want to look and just show people, this is what it's going to be.

Mark: 00:09:21

And there's no if, and, or buts about it.

Mark: 00:09:24

You actually can say, this is the vision, right here.

Mark: 00:09:27

Boom.

Mark: 00:09:28

Take a look.

Mark: 00:09:29

Now let's talk about making the whole thing,

Jaclyn: 00:09:31

Okay.

Jaclyn: 00:09:31

So what do you do with it once it's produced?

Jaclyn: 00:09:35

Let's say our listeners, they're writers, they go and get this concept film done.

Jaclyn: 00:09:39

What's the next step?

Jaclyn: 00:09:40

Once you have your proof of concept or your trailer, what do you do with that?

Mark: 00:09:44

Well, there's, tons and tons of routes.

Mark: 00:09:46

I mean, you know, for me, and this is something that I'm always learning and working on, but you go to your relationships.

Mark: 00:09:50

You go to people you know, and you start to say, Hey, look, I got this new project and it's something you can actually watch.

Mark: 00:09:55

Here's the teaser.

Mark: 00:09:56

Here's the short film.

Mark: 00:09:58

And we have, of course, the feature script and all this stuff,.

Mark: 00:10:00

You start to hit up your contacts.

Mark: 00:10:01

You start to see who's interested.

Mark: 00:10:03

But the main thing is, yeah, you really want to start to talk to, if you're making a feature film, you know, you really want to start to talk to companies, and producers, and, uh, Distributors, whoever you have contacts with, but, you know, you really want to start talking to them about, this being a project that should be on their radar.

Mark: 00:10:19

If you have no connections to that, then there are festivals as well.

Mark: 00:10:23

That's where people can get eyes on your project.

Mark: 00:10:26

That happens all the time.

Mark: 00:10:27

One of the films...

Mark: 00:10:28

it's not a, faith or family friendly film, but, uh, one of the films that we, looked to as a template was a film called Whiplash.

Mark: 00:10:36

Damien Chazelle, director.

Mark: 00:10:38

This was his second feature, he had made a micro budget feature before, and then he partnered with some producers and they wanted to try to get his second script, uh, off the ground.

Mark: 00:10:48

It's a very good script, very interesting script, very well written, but they couldn't get it going.

Mark: 00:10:52

They're like, you know what, let's shoot some of it.

Mark: 00:10:54

Let's shoot a proof of concept.

Mark: 00:10:56

And so that's where they got into the casting.

Mark: 00:10:57

That's where they cast J.

Mark: 00:10:59

K.

Mark: 00:10:59

Simmons, who plays the antagonist in the movie, who he won an Academy Award for it.

Mark: 00:11:03

But they made a short film.

Mark: 00:11:04

It's like 19 minutes, and they, shopped that around, and they also went to festivals with it.

Mark: 00:11:08

And that's where You know, you start to get the word out too, because festivals...

Mark: 00:11:11

there's a lot of great filmmakers at festivals, but also great studios, distributors, companies.

Mark: 00:11:17

They're looking for talent.

Mark: 00:11:18

They're looking for projects.

Mark: 00:11:19

They're looking for, um, things that they can develop people to know people.

Mark: 00:11:23

And they're, they're looking for...

Mark: 00:11:25

I think people forget this.

Mark: 00:11:26

And it's something I didn't really even learn until I made my first feature really, um, is that when people want to partner with you, whether it's as a producing partner or you're a writer or a distributor or financier, they are doing it for them.

Mark: 00:11:41

Like, you could say all the time.

Mark: 00:11:43

Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm going with God, and I, I feel spiritual movement.

Mark: 00:11:47

Great.

Mark: 00:11:47

And that's good, and you should be in prayer on this, and you should be thinking about, okay, this is a project you want to be part of, all this stuff, spiritually, but at the end of the day, Somebody wants to partner with you for them, for their company.

Mark: 00:12:00

For what it's going to do for their career, what it's going to do for their reputation, what it's going to do for their, you know, with their relationships.

Mark: 00:12:08

And I think that's what you want to have.

Mark: 00:12:10

You want to have a project where people want to come on board for them.

Mark: 00:12:13

Not because, oh, okay, yeah, I'll help you make your project.

Mark: 00:12:16

It's like, no I want to invest...

Mark: 00:12:18

I want to invest in your movie because I actually see that this is going to be great and have a return.

Mark: 00:12:23

I want to distribute your movie because I see that this is great and it's going to have a return.

Mark: 00:12:28

I want to produce with you.

Mark: 00:12:29

I want to direct your script.

Mark: 00:12:31

I want to write a script for it, whatever it is, whatever relationship you're trying to build.

Mark: 00:12:35

That's what a proof of concept can really do is showcase, This is what we want to do.

Mark: 00:12:40

Do you want to be a part of this?

Mark: 00:12:42

Because it's right here.

Mark: 00:12:43

It's, you can see it, you can hear it.

Mark: 00:12:45

Scripts are so, as you know, Jaclyn, it's scripts are so, interpretable.

Mark: 00:12:50

You know, one director...

Mark: 00:12:51

you can have the same exact script.

Mark: 00:12:53

Five different directors have five completely different movies if they all made the same script.

Mark: 00:12:58

Because scripts are so malleable, and because films are films, and scripts are just the blueprint.

Mark: 00:13:04

So, when you have interpretation like that, that's where people lose creative control, because they...

Mark: 00:13:09

you know, they get somebody financing their movie that sees it a very different way.

Jaclyn: 00:13:13

So how important is it to have casting solid?

Jaclyn: 00:13:18

Like, can you create a

Jaclyn: 00:13:20

proof of concept that's not the cast that you would use for the feature?

Mark: 00:13:23

Well, I think you just have to be honest with yourself and with your potential investors and studio distributors is that, like for our proof of concept, we would ideally like to keep our same cast, but even in their contracts, like the main, the guy who plays the dad was a wonderful actor named David Andrews who's been in...

Mark: 00:13:42

he's popped up in everything from Band of Brothers, to Fight Club, to JAG.

Mark: 00:13:47

He was in a show called Queen of the South more recently.

Mark: 00:13:50

Um, just been in everything for like, you know, four decade kind of career.

Mark: 00:13:55

So, known in that sense, but not, not a giant name.

Mark: 00:13:59

So even in his contract, his manager, made sure to put in, into his SAG contract that he would ideally like to have first right of refusal to play the role, but we need to have the investors have the opportunity to say, okay, actually we want Dennis Quaid, you know?

Mark: 00:14:14

and so he's going to get, if that happens, you know, if we get a Dennis Quaid or something like that for that role, Then he's going to get a payout.

Mark: 00:14:21

so, okay.

Mark: 00:14:22

Yeah, we get a studio, we get investors, whatever it is, ideally we're looking at like a three, four million budget And so in that, if they want Dennis Quaid, okay, they're going to have to pay this X amount of money from the contract to this other actor.

Mark: 00:14:35

So it's, it's something where you just need to have the conversation with the actors, with the possible Investors the whole time.

Mark: 00:14:41

Now, if you have a packaged film in the sense of you've already, um, have actors attached, then sometimes the proof of concept might just be a visual thing.

Mark: 00:14:51

Or, like in the sense of that movie Whiplash, they cast the two main actors for the short, they recast one of them and kept one.

Mark: 00:15:01

Where You know, the distributor's like, no, that guy is perfect for it.

Mark: 00:15:05

We don't need a big name for that.

Mark: 00:15:06

Like, let's keep him.

Mark: 00:15:07

He's great.

Mark: 00:15:07

We loved him in the short, but actually in order to make our money back, we do need a bigger name in this X role.

Mark: 00:15:13

And so it's something, we've had this conversation from the beginning.

Mark: 00:15:16

It's like ideally we want to keep our cast from the proof of concept, but we are very open to you know, if somebody wants to give us four million dollars, but they want Gary Sinise It's like, alright, let's do it.

Mark: 00:15:25

I love Gary too.

Jaclyn: 00:15:26

Yeah, you need room for flexibility.

Mark: 00:15:28

Yeah.

Mark: 00:15:28

Right.

Mark: 00:15:29

You do and I think that's perfectly put, Jaclyn.

Mark: 00:15:32

It's like, I think when you are, unless you're paying it for yourself, unless you're putting your own money into it, you do need to have flexibility the whole way.

Mark: 00:15:42

Even if you have a great vision as a director, writer, whatever it is, you know, actors too.

Mark: 00:15:47

You need to be able to collaborate.

Mark: 00:15:49

And you need to be able to like, yeah, okay, if we want to get 4 million dollars, it's very likely they're going to have a big say in a lot of things and we need to have those conversations and be open to that.

Jaclyn: 00:15:59

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:16:00

All right.

Jaclyn: 00:16:00

So let's talk a little bit more about like actually the screenwriting itself because For Prophet and Prodigal Sons are completely different genres, and, um, you know, we mentioned before that, comedy is your thing.

Jaclyn: 00:16:15

And, there's a lot of different kinds of comedy, but how important is comedy to a screenplay in, the various different genres?

Mark: 00:16:24

Yeah, I think it's paramount.

Mark: 00:16:26

uh, you know, Billy Wilder, one of the quotes I say, in these workshops and classes is, um, uh, you know, a film without humor is, is a dead film.

Mark: 00:16:33

It just doesn't have life.

Mark: 00:16:34

It doesn't pop.

Mark: 00:16:36

If you're making a psychological thriller, that's super dramatic, you need to have tonal changes.

Mark: 00:16:41

You need to have light moments.

Mark: 00:16:42

And it's all relative.

Mark: 00:16:43

You don't need to have giant belly laughs every two minutes in a movie.

Mark: 00:16:48

What you need is to be able to bring your audience through a film and not have it feel alienating to them.

Mark: 00:16:56

And one of the best ways to keep them engaged is to vary the tone and be able to have these super intense moments and then lighten it up for a second.

Mark: 00:17:05

So you can breathe, you know, and, and then you go back into it.

Mark: 00:17:09

Um, sound of freedom, you know, we brought it up in the other part of the podcast...

Mark: 00:17:12

perfect example.

Mark: 00:17:13

There were three times in that movie where I laughed out loud.

Mark: 00:17:16

There were light touches throughout that, that very heavy subject matter movie.

Mark: 00:17:21

There were three times where I laughed out loud, and those times just broke that tension.

Mark: 00:17:26

It allowed you to take in these intense emotions and these intense situations, and then have a bit of a breath, have a bit of a lighter moment, So that variability is very important.

Mark: 00:17:37

There's a lot of these dramaties out there that are certainly structurally a drama, but because they have such good character development, you have incredibly funny scenes that you think of as like, you might even remember those funny scenes the most because they're, there's just great characters that are real and they pop off the screen.

Mark: 00:17:57

And so you're, able to engage with them and laugh with them and be in their world and understand them more...

Mark: 00:18:02

the kind of personality that the character has, by allowing humor to happen, and allowing those characters to be In humorous situations and say humorous things.

Mark: 00:18:11

And that's what my goal is when when it comes to working with anybody...

Mark: 00:18:16

a client or a class.

Mark: 00:18:17

Trying to help them bring more comedy to their script.

Mark: 00:18:21

You need to find what's funny to you, and your voice as, a comedic writer.

Mark: 00:18:24

But you don't need to write a comedy.

Mark: 00:18:26

What you need to do is accept the genre you're in, and stick with that, and understand the characters you have, but realize that there's a reason why a Mission Impossible movie has 20 minutes of incredible stunts and then ends with a giant joke.

Mark: 00:18:40

It's because comedy is important to all storytelling.

Mark: 00:18:45

It is in itself a genre, but it's more just about having that understanding with the audience that this is something we want to be relatable and, uh, and have characters and have moments that allow your heart to, you know, be excited, but also to sit back and, and have that laugh, you know, I mean, look at Shakespeare, I mean, he wrote tragedies and comedies, but the tragedies have great jokes in them throughout.

Mark: 00:19:11

And there's a reason, it's because they're tragic.

Mark: 00:19:13

They're tragic, and you need to have those lighter touches.

Mark: 00:19:16

There's a reason why we're still talking about Shakespeare, it's because he was able to weave those tones.

Mark: 00:19:20

No matter what the genre was, he was able to have those lighter touches, and that allowed people to remember more, connect more, care more, want more, um, and be engaged more.

Mark: 00:19:31

And that's why we're still talking about his writing today, is because he could do that.

Jaclyn: 00:19:34

I, I think, like, when we bring the emotional experience up into comedy, it allows us to go even deeper down into those more difficult emotions.

Jaclyn: 00:19:45

So if you're wanting to take your audience on an emotional journey and you want them to travel through grief or sadness or anger or stress, like whatever that, difficult emotion is...

Jaclyn: 00:19:56

if you can grab their emotions through humor, it's like, humor is almost a reflexive emotion, like you don't, think, oh, that's funny, I'm going to laugh.

Jaclyn: 00:20:07

Like you just, it pops out before you've even really thought about it sometimes, right?

Jaclyn: 00:20:11

You can get in there through emotion and so then when you bring them up a little bit more with emotion, then those lows are even lower.

Jaclyn: 00:20:18

And when I say low, I just mean more profound, right?

Jaclyn: 00:20:21

It's a deeper emotion that they go into.

Jaclyn: 00:20:24

So if you have a drama, and you want people to feel very deeply about something, you need to include that humor in order to create that contrast.

Jaclyn: 00:20:34

Because like you said, when people can breathe, then they can go back down into those deep emotions even deeper.

Mark: 00:20:40

That's a great way to put it.

Mark: 00:20:41

The other thing I always say is as I mentioned It's not about You know, it's not about being George Carlin.

Mark: 00:20:45

It's not about being the greatest comedian ever.

Mark: 00:20:48

It's about finding what you find funny, and makes you laugh about your characters and about situations.

Mark: 00:20:53

And finding your voice for it, and not forcing anything.

Mark: 00:20:56

Sometimes, when I say adding humor, it might just be the reaction.

Mark: 00:21:00

Nobody might actually laugh out loud, but they just smile for a second.

Mark: 00:21:04

It might not even be funny enough to actually have a laugh, but that's not the point.

Mark: 00:21:08

The point is just to, to vary it a little bit and to have that lighter touch for a second.

Mark: 00:21:14

When I got into comedy, and I started to realize that audiences were responding very much to my work as a comedic filmmaker, that's when I started to understand what you said about the reflexive nature of comedy.

Mark: 00:21:28

It's inherent in our lives that we need to be laughing.

Mark: 00:21:31

And when you have something that genuinely makes you laugh, or makes you smile, it makes you trust.

Mark: 00:21:39

It makes you trust in the characters, and trust in the world that you're being pulled into, because it is reflexive, you're not thinking about it.

Mark: 00:21:45

Sometimes when movies get really intellectual, and you gotta, think about it, that's great.

Mark: 00:21:48

But when something makes you laugh, and makes you smile, and makes you, you know, respond in that way, you're not choosing, you don't choose that.

Mark: 00:21:55

You just, you really just feel it.

Mark: 00:21:57

And that's when I started to really understand my voice as a filmmaker and I started to realize, oh, okay, people are really responding to my jokes, and people really responding to my sense of humor.

Mark: 00:22:06

And because of that I kept doubling down on that and doing more of that work.

Jaclyn: 00:22:10

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:22:10

It's a bonding opportunity.

Mark: 00:22:12

It's a bonding opportunity with the audience and the story.

Mark: 00:22:15

And the more and more you can get that in there, the more you can bond, the more you can care about the characters, the more you can want to know what's going to happen with the characters.

Mark: 00:22:23

And I feel very blessed that I have gotten into comedy and understand filmmaking from a comedic standpoint, because I think it's really helped me in other genres too, and understand, you know, when to get dramatic, and when to have the tension, and when to, when to feel this, and when to have an action beat, and when to have all these other things, because I understand the comedy beats, um, and having that balance throughout, and that flow.

Jaclyn: 00:22:44

Yeah, what I really liked about For Prophet is that, even within the same scene, you could have one character experiencing very difficult emotions, and, as an audience member, I can bond with that, and I understand, and I can feel those deep emotions, but then there's another character who, because they see the world differently, they're responding differently, and there's a lot of humor involved there.

Jaclyn: 00:23:06

And so I'm also connecting with that character, and so within the same scene, I can have these complex emotions at the same time.

Jaclyn: 00:23:16

And this is one of the things that I love, because it reflects life so well.

Jaclyn: 00:23:21

Because sometimes in life, you are juggling so many factors that you don't know whether to laugh or cry sometimes, right?

Jaclyn: 00:23:27

And one of the things I love about kids and pets is that they don't understand the context of whatever room they're walking into.

Jaclyn: 00:23:34

They just are who they are.

Jaclyn: 00:23:36

And so they just bring in whatever...

Jaclyn: 00:23:38

whatever's going on with them.

Jaclyn: 00:23:40

You know, I remember when I first got a dog, I started to laugh more, and I realized that it's just because he's just being who he is and he was funny.

Jaclyn: 00:23:51

And so in characters in our screenplays, when we let them be who they are, and they happen to be funny, um, you know, like that's where we get to just let them...let them be, right?

Jaclyn: 00:24:04

That authenticity.

Jaclyn: 00:24:05

And that's where those true laughs come from and that's where those complex emotions come from and I think you did a really great job...

Jaclyn: 00:24:12

and that one was a comedy, but I know that with the advice that you had given me with one of my screenplays, where we went through a scene, and you showed me, okay, we can draw some comedy out right here, and those comedic moments, they weren't your laugh out loud comedic moments, they were kind of more on the quirky level, where it was just bringing out more of her character, that allowed the audience to kind of, you know, maybe smile a bit, but then, at the end of the scene, we're hit with something that's really intense, because it's actually a drama that we were working on.

Jaclyn: 00:24:40

But because there was that moment where we kind of were smiling and then that deep moment hit, it hit even deeper because now we're like being thrown with our emotions.

Jaclyn: 00:24:51

It's like, Do you want to go on a roller coaster that just kind of, moves along?

Jaclyn: 00:24:55

Or do you want something that's like whipping you around?

Jaclyn: 00:24:58

You know, and that's where, bringing comedy can allow you to have that more intense ride.

Mark: 00:25:05

Absolutely.

Mark: 00:25:06

Yeah, and I think, with your script, that's a perfect example where.

Mark: 00:25:09

You want to be based in character, character driven.

Mark: 00:25:11

And it's like, Yes.

Mark: 00:25:12

Absolutely.

Mark: 00:25:13

A hundred percent.

Mark: 00:25:13

it needs to be character driven.

Mark: 00:25:14

That's where your best stories come from.

Mark: 00:25:16

That's how you connect the world to the audience.

Mark: 00:25:19

Through your characters.

Mark: 00:25:20

But I think also it's just really understanding, like with humor and adding humor, it's not that you have to like, all of a sudden they have to say something super funny.

Mark: 00:25:29

All of a sudden they have to do something super funny.

Mark: 00:25:31

They just have to be a true character.

Mark: 00:25:33

You need to find who that person really is.

Mark: 00:25:35

Let them be that personality.

Mark: 00:25:37

Let them say what they would say.

Mark: 00:25:39

Let them react the way they would react.

Mark: 00:25:41

And a lot of times you'll easily find the humor there.

Mark: 00:25:43

It's already there.

Mark: 00:25:45

You know, you just want it to be based in the character.

Mark: 00:25:47

It's your characters.

Mark: 00:25:48

Like, I don't want to ever come in and be like, I think your character should be totally different.

Mark: 00:25:52

No, no, no, no.

Mark: 00:25:53

Let's figure out who your character is.

Mark: 00:25:55

Let's go through the layers of their being and find where we can bring the natural humor of the moment out.

Mark: 00:26:02

I think in the workshop we had talked about a good example I think about a lot.

Mark: 00:26:05

You know, like some of those early Jim Carrey movies, like a dumb and dumber.

Mark: 00:26:09

Those characters, they're simple.

Mark: 00:26:11

They're very simple characters.

Mark: 00:26:12

They're dumb and they're dumber.

Mark: 00:26:13

That's the character.

Jaclyn: 00:26:14

Right.

Mark: 00:26:15

These are not complex characters.

Mark: 00:26:17

They're very simple, but one of the reasons why that movie is so good is because it's character driven.

Mark: 00:26:26

The characters are always themselves.

Mark: 00:26:28

They're always reacting the way they would react, and we know those characters well, and they're simple to understand.

Mark: 00:26:34

But once you get Jim Carrey's character, and you understand the way he thinks, and the way he acts, and why he says things, and when he reacts, and what he does, it's all character driven.

Mark: 00:26:44

It's all based in the character.

Mark: 00:26:46

If you want to write more complex characters, great!

Mark: 00:26:48

Awesome!

Mark: 00:26:48

Complexity is fantastic c.

Mark: 00:26:50

Especially if you're doing a psychological drama or something like that.

Mark: 00:26:53

Yeah, you want to have a lot of deep characters.

Mark: 00:26:57

But, still, you need to go into that character the way you've written them, the way you envision them, and find who they really are, and that's where you're going to find the humor.

Mark: 00:27:05

It's not about throwing some left field joke or some left field thing in that makes no sense in the world.

Mark: 00:27:11

It's just understanding your world, understanding your characters and really mining deep into who they are, why they would say something, when they would say something, when they would do something, how they would react and slowly but surely you're like, Oh yeah, if they reacted this way, that would be very natural for them.

Mark: 00:27:26

And that actually might bring out a laughter because that's a weird reaction or whatever.

Mark: 00:27:30

I love it when like I'm working with somebody and they realize, oh yeah, the character would react in that way.

Mark: 00:27:35

That makes a lot of sense.

Mark: 00:27:37

Like, then they know more about their character, like, oh wow.

Mark: 00:27:40

That would be funny for them to say that, and that would make so much sense for them to say that in that moment.

Mark: 00:27:44

And then when you start to realize that you as a writer become more understanding of your world and you flesh it out in your own mind more, and then that comes onto the page more and then hopefully it pops s for the audience, you know, and that's the whole thing.

Mark: 00:27:57

I really love when that happens because I think a lot of people get it in their mind that like, they aren't funny or don't write comedy, or they, they're more drama.

Mark: 00:28:06

They, they do thrillers, they're action, you know?

Mark: 00:28:08

And you kind of pinhole yourself and you're like, well, I don't really write funny stuff.

Mark: 00:28:12

That's okay.

Mark: 00:28:12

You don't have to write funny stuff.

Mark: 00:28:14

You just have to know your characters.

Mark: 00:28:15

Just get in there and you'll be able to find those moments because you just have to know your characters and know, know who they are and then you can do it.

Geoff: 00:28:23

That's a great thing about Mark's class when he teaches.

Geoff: 00:28:26

Uh, it's not just, theory.

Geoff: 00:28:28

He's not just teaching theory or concepts where you get this high concept idea that you have to go and try and figure out how to apply.

Geoff: 00:28:35

You can actually bring your scripts, bring your own material and workshop through it.

Geoff: 00:28:40

So, you learn as you're working on your own material, and that's a great way to learn.

Jaclyn: 00:28:43

Absolutely.

Mark: 00:28:44

Let's really get in there, and talk about it and find, how to make your script better.

Jaclyn: 00:28:48

Yeah, and a lot of the time the humor doesn't necessarily come through the dialogue.

Jaclyn: 00:28:52

Sometimes humor comes through how they, you know, are physically responding to something or, a dynamic between two characters that are just very different from each other.

Jaclyn: 00:29:02

and just seeing how that plays out.

Jaclyn: 00:29:05

There's so many different ways of approaching humor.

Jaclyn: 00:29:08

So yeah, for anybody that wants to take classes, how would you want people to connect with you to work with them on helping them to bring humor to their scripts.

Mark: 00:29:17

Sure, yeah.

Mark: 00:29:17

I mean, a simple email would be great.

Mark: 00:29:20

Very simple email mark@msifilms.com.

Mark: 00:29:23

M-A-R-K at M-S-I-F-I-L-M-S .com.

Mark: 00:29:28

Shoot me an email.

Mark: 00:29:29

and like I said, you can look at my work@msifilms.com and, um, yeah, I think that would be the best, way to contact me.

Jaclyn: 00:29:36

Perfect.

Jaclyn: 00:29:36

Thank you so much.

Jaclyn: 00:29:37

This has been very informative and entertaining.

Jaclyn: 00:29:40

And, it's been

Jaclyn: 00:29:41

nice to connect with you again.

Jaclyn: 00:29:42

I always enjoy it.

Mark: 00:29:43

Absolutely.

Mark: 00:29:44

Yeah, you guys too.

Mark: 00:29:45

I really appreciate you guys very much, and love working with you guys.

Mark: 00:29:48

And, looking forward to, more of that.

Mark: 00:29:50

And I'm excited about your podcast too.

Mark: 00:29:52

It's

Mark: 00:29:52

fantastic.

Geoff: 00:29:52

Great talking to you, Mark.

Geoff: 00:29:53

Have a great day.

Jaclyn: 00:29:54

Thank you so much.

Jaclyn: 00:29:55

God bless.

Mark: 00:29:56

Bye guys.