Welcome to The Mind Body Marathon: the podcast that puts you on a path to a healthier lifestyle–whether you’re a daily runner or just finding your footing.

This episode brings a deep dive into the mindset, training, and racing strategies of elite athletes, focusing on special guest Clayton Murphy, a two-time Olympian in the 800 meters. Hosted by running expert Dr. Leo Kormanik, and featuring massage therapist Zachary Goulet, this conversation explores Clayton’s preparation heading into the 2024 track season in Paris, his return to form, and his unique training perspectives.

Clayton takes us through his experience traveling to China for his first race of the season, feeling underprepared yet still achieving the Olympic trial standard with a 1:45 run. The discussion unwraps his physical and mental preparation, including weight management strategies and improved lifestyle choices that helped him regain his fitness after a long off-season. Trail running, nutritional adjustments, and strategic training adaptations form the backbone of Murphy’s approach to gearing up for the competitive season.

Throughout the episode, they discuss the intricacies of race strategies, the changing dynamics of 800-meter races, and the vital role of mental resilience. Clayton reflects on his race experiences in LA, Budapest, and China, emphasizing the importance of making confident decisions and being adaptable. The dialogue also considers the benefits and challenges of Clayton's pivot to trail running for overall mental and physical well-being.

The conversation concludes with insightful reflections on support systems and the critical role they play in athletic success, drawing an engaging comparison to the collaborative environment of Formula 1 teams.

Key Takeaways

1. Importance of Mental Preparation: Clayton Murphy shares his rituals and mental strategies leading up to important races, underscoring the significance of a prepared mindset. This includes visualizations, adaptability in routines, and confidence-building, essential for high-stakes athletic performance.

2. Adapting Nutrition for Performance: Clayton’s approach to nutrition during the race season involves cutting out late-night snacks and fast food, focusing instead on healthier options to maintain his weight and enhance performance. His experience highlights the impact of disciplined eating habits on athletic success.

3. Flexibility in Training: Adapting to various environmental conditions and race formats is critical. Murphy’s shift to trail running illustrates the importance of flexibility in training approaches, emphasizing stability, strength, and mental resets. This adaptability ensures preparedness for diverse competition scenarios.

4. Evolving Race Strategies: Race dynamics, especially in the 800 meters, are continually shifting. Murphy discusses the slower paces in the first lap and the need for strategic positioning and decision-making. Understanding and anticipating race flow can significantly impact performance outcomes.

5. Team Support and Comparisons to Formula 1: The role of coaches, training partners, and support staff is paramount. Dr. Leo draws an engaging comparison to the collaborative effort seen in Formula 1, highlighting how an athlete’s success is often a team accomplishment. This reinforces the importance of a well-rounded support network.

Remember to tune in next week for more insights aimed at helping you lead a healthier, more balanced life. Your health is a marathon, not a sprint, and the Mind Body Marathon is here to help you set the pace.

Alright. Hello, everyone. This is, the mind body marathon podcast, and I'm your host, doctor Leo Kormanik. And to my left here is, Zachary Goulet, massage therapist. And to my right is, none other than Clayton Murphy, 2 time Olympian in the 800. And so this show, we're basically just gonna kinda chat with Clayton a little bit about, you know, his mindset, his training, and just kinda state of his racing, with regards to the the 2024 track season here heading into Paris. So yeah. Clayton, so fill me in on, your first race of the season and kinda how that went and where you're at with all that? Yeah.

So I decided to fly, what, 24 hours worth of travel for a rust buster this year versus, you know was it 24? It takes a day to get there.

It it almost doesn't matter which

time it takes. It takes a very long time to get to China. No matter how you cut and slice it, it it's not a quick trip. And, see, I flew over there, and it was very odd because, obviously, you go into those big races as a professional. Usually, you kinda know what to expect. But, like, with me not racing

Yeah.

Since getting sent home in the prelims of the world championships, I I actually had nothing no no idea what to expect. It's not like I did indicator workouts either. Like, we we were very raw going into this. And I think coming off of 2140 fives, getting 3rd in the second one, and and feeling like I ran confident in both of them. It was like that was kind

of the goal,

was to go over there and make confident decisions in my in my race strategy. And if the fitness wise or physical side didn't kinda hold up at the end of the races, and it was kinda like, we know where we're at, but, like Yeah. Just make decisions during the race, and I was able to do that.

Yeah. So that's what you did. So you went out to China, and over the last 2 weeks, you ran 145, and then you got to Olympic trial standard and and set yourself up really good for the for the summer here. And and Zach and I, you know, both kinda work with you personally, like, in in terms of treatments and management. And, it's really interesting because, you know, 2 months ago, we're like, oh, man. He's kinda needing to catch up with his body. Right? So he's starting to get fit and things like that, and and then all of a sudden about a month ago, we were like, oh, dude. He's ready.

Like like like you walked in to treatment one day, and I'm like, you actually look like a Pro Track athlete. Now, like, I turned the corner. It's awesome.

He left me off cutting out, like, cookies at, like, 11 PM and, like, getting, like, 9 hours of sleep and, not eating Taco Bell for lunch will do.

Well, the off season, treated you pretty well. Right?

Yeah. I mean, it was my longest

it was

my longest off season. Like, I mean, I I think when I was hurt in 17, like, I got to figure out her at trials.

Yeah.

I didn't really take an off season because I tried to come back in that season. But when I went to, like, revamp that winter, that's, like, the most advantage I took of an off season. I mean, I was, like, 1 60 high. Like, I was heavy.

So what are you right now?

Probably, like, 153. Yeah. I need to trim down to, like, 150. That's kinda like my trials goal. It's like, if I'm, like, 148 to 150, like Mhmm. And I always figure I lose weight within a couple days of race. I could lose a pound or 2 just because I don't eat as much. Yeah.

Like, when I

was in China, I'm sure I lost, like, 4 pounds of China because I just, like you just I just don't eat as much on trips.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that £15 is is some some it's street cred for sure.

Yeah. I have a I need to find it. I have a picture somewhere of, like, early in fall training

Yeah.

And then, like, the week of trials. Yeah. And I just, like, my neck is, like, it's, like, fat where my neck and I remember, like, at the time of, like, being coach Alberto, and he kept saying, like, you need to lose weight. You need to lose weight. And I'm just like, nah. I'm good. I'm fine. I'm good.

I'm good. And then I remember looking in the mirror one day, and I'm like

No. I'm not good.

Oh, there's some nasty log in. I was like, it's time to lose some weight.

Those mirrors don't lie, man.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

A lot of runs and tights and quarter zips. Dude, I remember when

you came back here, and there was a picture. I don't know who took it, but it was, like, you with your shirt off on the towpath with 1 of the Akron guys. And you're like, dude, this can't be a thing anymore. Like and it was, like, early like, it was, like, start of the season, but you're not you're like, dude, this can't be a thing. Like, this can't be me anymore. And, like I

mean, you guys know me. Like, it's not like I eat super healthy, like, even when I'm eating healthy.

You're kidding.

Like, it's not like yeah. It's not like my eating healthy is, like, never counting calories. I'm like it's, like, kinda like I had Jersey Mike's for lunch today. Like, it's like kinda like it is what it is. Yeah. But, like, in the off season, it's just it's

it's it's all hell breaks loose.

It's like whatever in the world I want. Like, if it's beers at night and, like, I want pancakes for breakfast and, like, pancakes for lunch and then, like, talk about for dinner. It's, like, sounds good.

Okay. So so you obviously cut out the cookies and cut out the extra stuff. What else do you tighten up with your diet when you kinda get into race season?

I try to just just be smart about it. I mean, like, I don't think it's I mean, you can make it rocket science. Like, you really can. But I think for me, it's, like, just being smart about it. It's like, if I'm gonna have Chick Fil A for dinner, it's like grilled chicken sandwich or salad or, like, you know, like, chicken the chicken tender not the whatever the bites are, like, not breaded. Like, just trying to be conscious about it. Like, I mean, if we're gonna have tacos for dinner, like, I'm still gonna have regular tacos. Like, last night, I had leftover tacos for dinner.

Like, it's

Yeah.

It's not like I'm eating. Like, I can't put seasoning on it, and I can't, like, eat white normal flour tortillas.

This is always the thing that I appreciated about you as an athlete is that you could compete really well overseas because you were so flexible with your diet. Mhmm. Whereas, so many athletes, especially pro athletes, they're very, like, particular about what they eat. And then if they go in Europe and race in the diamond league series, it's like they get screwed because, you know, not everything's gonna be gluten free. Not everything's gonna be straight organic. Not you're not gonna be able to eat, like, strict diet like that. You kinda just have to roll the punches. And this is what I think is such a hidden factor in competing so well internationally.

You know, you made 2 Olympic teams, you're hoping to make your 3rd, and then it's just like and then you've competed massively well on the European circuit, in the diamond league circuit, and I think that's a big reason why is you just kinda roll with the punches.

I mean, there's so many punches to roll with. Like, simple things like, there was a a hurdler with my agency that we were, like, traveling with, and he kept saying how he wanted to try to go to prerace pretty much 24 hours before he raced. And when you're in Europe and China, like, in Asia, you pretty much race at night almost, like, exclusively. Like, it's always evening races. So, like, you're going to the track at the evenings, which tracks aren't always always open. Like, even, like, the day before, like, they have certain hours because they're doing, you know, rehearsals or opening ceremonies or, you know, other meets are going on. So he kept saying, like, I wanna go at this time, but there's, like, no shuttles running. Yeah.

And I'm like, dude, you're about to learn. Like, you just go. Like, obviously, you want I you have ideal times you'd want to go. But pretty much, like, you just stay, like, hey. Like

But if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

If it

doesn't happen, it's like, I mean, I couldn't even tell you what I ate for lunch the days of those races because, like, it's just Yeah. Whatever, you know, whatever the I feel like is gonna be the best option I have, you just kinda almost take a gamble on it.

Which in a weird way, this goes back to kind of our mind component of the mind body marathon sort of idea is that, like, you know, when people put so much stock into the process and so much stock into, like, I'm running well because I ate this or I had this routine, and you're just, like, whatever about it. It's like, then, you know, that sort of takes away from your mental component, you know, just that just that urge to compete well because everybody's so hung up on the process of it. So I think that's kind of an important point.

Well and, like, with that too, you know, like, for people that are watching and everything, like, I've been traveling out with Clayton now for what? This is our 4th time for USA champs, at least. And last year, in particular, after you qualified for the world team, you came up to JT and I, and you're like, everything that coach told me not to do, I did. But think that's, like, the beauty of the 800 is that now it's so like, one little thing goes wrong and it just can throw off everything, but you have to be adaptable. And I think, like, the way that you approach your training, the way that you approach, like, your your ability to be successful always kinda ebbs and flows because you you have to be adaptable. You know?

Yeah. It almost segway into, like, my entire, like, mindset or, like, motto this year is, like, kinda mentioned, like, decisive confident decisions. And I think, like, if I'm fit and healthy, which that's obviously goal number 1, and I'm not the fittest I've ever been in in May, but I'm I feel like the overall healthiest and, like, best build up I've had in multiple years prior. If I can piece that piece with making confident decisions in the race, then, like, I'm at the best I can be. Mhmm. And there's obviously race scenarios that are better for who I am as an athlete. Like, my ideal race, if you could pick, is, like, 5152. Right.

Like, to run 143 change. Like, that's what I would love. 50.5, 525, like, that sort of range.

Yeah. But if

the race is 49 flat at trials or if the race is 54 flat, like, I have to be physically ready for it. Mhmm. And I've told coach that. I'm like, train me for that. Like, train me for everything. We obviously have a best case scenario, but, like, I wanna be ready for everything. Like, I want my my differential between my best possible scenario and my worst possible scenario to be the tightest of anybody on the starting line.

Yeah.

Right. And then allow me as the athlete, as this, you know, 29 year old experienced guy who's run so many 800 in his life, they're like, let me make the decisions in the race. And maybe the race scenario isn't perfect, or maybe my decision making isn't perfect. But if I make confident, smart decisions, and I run well based on this type of race, maybe the worst outcome is meddling. But if it's a good scenario and I make good decisions, then I win the race. Right. You know, like Right. At the end of the day, like, if I'm top 3 at trials, it's a win.

If I'm top 3 in Paris, it's end of the day, it's a win. If I win trials, which is my goal, and if I win Paris, like, my ultimate goal, like, those are great days. But I have to be in a position to do that. And if I I don't practice it, like, that's why I went to China for.

Mhmm.

They needed to practice making confident decisions in races. Right.

So, obviously, you you know, you've turned into a, you know, a big trail guy. You know, you won your 1st trip race. What? A couple more trail wins and track wins. So, like, you know, I've had a couple of people say, like, you know, I noticed that, like, you know, Clayton didn't run, you know, indoor this year. And, you know, obviously, you took the indoor season off, and you focus more on kind of, like, doing a different thing. So, like, what what was your reasoning to

build up has been

different.

It's been much different. And having been on trail runs with you, like, I kinda have a, you know, a small idea, but I wanna hear more from you and more in, like, detail with that.

So, like, getting knocked out in the prelims of worlds was, like, up there as, like, one of the hardest, like, in ways to end the season. Like, 2022 was obviously an extremely hard way to end not in the season, but in the season in Eugene.

Yeah.

I felt like the season ended in Eugene. Like, that was gut wrenching.

For sure.

To get knocked out in Budapest was gut wrenching because I felt like I had a chance to make the final and compete for a medal. So I needed a hard reset. I'd went through a lot in my life with literally moving back here in the middle of my career, and I really didn't kind of, like, have a chance to really we're in the middle of the pandemic. I didn't have a chance to kinda, like, accept that. I didn't accept the fact that I'd gotten older and, you know, I wasn't as, you know, this young whippersnappers coach calls it, like, anymore. And I had a kid who was born, you know, extremely early, and we spent a lot of time in in the NICU. And I spent a lot of time last year, like, leading into Budapest, like, being a father and trying to run. And not just, like, being a father, like, truly, like, waking up with him and staying up with him and feeding him at night.

Like, I was fully involved in it. And for me, I needed a reset. And then I also was like, I hate easy runs. Like I do, I hate going I hate going for 60 minute runs and hour runs. Like Right. It's just not fun to me. I would rather track run every day. Like, I wish I was a sprinter.

So for me, like, knowing that I'm about to go through April, May, June, July, August into September and having 3 to 4 days a week where I'm going to the SoPath, there's bike and hiking running 45 to 90 minutes and grinding it out in 90 degree heat. Like, do I really wanna go grind out 90 minutes on the towpath? Yeah. Mhmm. September, October, November, December, January, February. Like so I was like, screw it. How do I how do I go for 60 minutes, less time on feet, but also, you know, run the hills, run the trails, work on that, and also just have fun Right. Right running again. Right.

Because for me, like, I'm not having fun doing it. It's like the middle side of it. It's just

It turns into a business, and it is a business for you. But you gotta find that, you know, you gotta find that line where, you know, you can still have fun with it. I feel like that's what the trails did. I mean, when we went for runs, like, we were just talking and, you know, just shooting it.

Who offered up the idea? Did Labedi mention it or were you just, like, I think I'm

just trying to run started doing it. I mean, we always did I mean, in college, like, in college, like, we would run like, we'd go to ledges and run. So we would go to, like, we'd do that kind of stuff in college where, like, we would go on adventure runs.

Yeah. It'd be

like he would just drop us at the reservations or metro parks and just be like, go run. And then, like, when I lived up by Sugar Inn, like, in Beachwood, like, I would go run out there and then, like so I had experience in them. And I, from college, like, I knew where some of the places were and I started running. Then it became a thing of, like, let's go find a new trail to run today and, like, stuff like that. And that's the thing.

We live so we're in the Cleveland Akron area and we have a national park and we just have this great trail system and anybody that doesn't know about the running around here, it's phenomenal with all the trails and stuff. So it it's funny for us to, like, grow up running on trails, essentially, in the area, like you were saying in college with Akron and stuff.

But then, like, defining

yourself as a finding yourself as a good trail runner, it's so weird. It's, like, that's just another surface to run on. Right. That's just so normal to us. Just go run on the trails. Mhmm. Like, but some people were, like, get so hung up on, like, what surface are you on? And are you a trail runner now? It's like, no. I'm just running on the trail.

Like, what does it have to define me?

I mean, even just, like, couple days ago, I went for, you know, I went for a run on the trails and went to ledges and just kinda went for 40 minutes and just, you know, clear the mind. Again, clear the mind. Yeah. And, obviously, like, I'm more conscious now. I'm getting closer to season. Like, I ran ledges, and I'm like, I probably shouldn't run ledges again for a while. Like but, like, to go to Brexville and run, like, the bridal shells and stuff like that that, like, you know, like, you know It's more predictable. Yeah.

It's just You know?

Just because the footing is safer. Right? That's what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you on that. Yeah. And and when you when you add that variable in, it creates a broader base for your training load. You know, you're getting stronger in different ways.

So instead of it just being an easy run, which sort of focuses on cardiovascular fitness and just general recovery, you know, the the trail run then naturally slows you down, but it makes you, like, oddly stronger in a different way. You know, so, like, that's the other thing too is is, like, instead of, like, lifting so much, like, you once you're on the trails a little bit more, you actually get stability strong, and you actually get strong a little bit different through the hips, because every foot strike is actually different. So Yeah.

I mean, it's it's just like if I figure I'm doing 3 to 4 easy runs of an hour average, like, there's 3 to 4 hours average of just literally repetitive, but striking. And I have pretty high cadence, and I run up on my toes. And, like, it's not easy runs for me or not necessarily as easy as what, you know, an average runner going for easy run is. It's kinda, you know, a little more casual. Like, I'm pretty aggressive runner per se. Like, I run hard, and I run up on my toes. And, you know, it's a lot of stress on Mhmm. A lot of parts of my body.

And that this point in my career, like, I had to kinda find a balance.

Yeah. Well so interesting thing that I was kinda thinking about. So walk us through, like, the moment when you were headed to China, and you realize you're about to toe the line on a diamond league meet, and you hadn't adequately done a workout or felt those paces. Like, walk me through that mindset of what you knew you were about to go through.

That's a good one.

And then, like, and then just, like, the the visualization side of it, like, oh, boy. Like, the the mental gap of that.

It was I haven't there's, like, an exact moment, and it was the night before the race. We went back to the stadium to do prerace, and I walked into the stadium. And I looked at my agent, and I said, damn. I flew all the way over here for a bus buster.

Yeah. Dude.

Like, I and I we just laughed. Like, it was it was like that exact exactly what you're saying was that exact moment.

Yeah.

And I obviously made that that point prior to Yeah. Like, we knew what we were getting into.

I had meant to run realized at that moment.

I had meant to run at Akron, like, was that 2 weeks before? Yeah. Like, you know, it was just a cold day, and we're kinda just like we ended up doing a workout after it, and it ended up being fine. Yeah. So, like, I had meant to race, but I'm really good friends with with Eric Swinski, and, like, we chat, like, daily. And I remember texting him. He's like, how are you feeling? I just took it over there. And I was like, you know, like, whatever. Like, fine.

Like, little jet lag. Whatever whatever whatever. And he's like, dude. He's like, as soon as you get to the track on Saturday night, you're gonna be fine. And as soon as I walked like, as soon as I got out of the shower and, like, put my jersey on, like, put that warm up gear on, it was almost like it was just, like, 2nd natural. Everything went in the backpack. Everything went to the bus. Headphones went in.

Like, mindset went in. Like, everything just clicked, and it was, like, it's just like somebody else going to work. Like, it's just, like, for me, it was what I do every day.

That's the thing that that's an important point is the ritual. The ritual of everything, like, of of putting on the the jersey, of getting the headphones in, just the cycle of it all, I think, is critical in terms of getting you

in the right mindset. And it's it goes back to your point you made earlier about, like, I'm not a superstitious person.

Mhmm.

I have things I like to do. Like, I'm I'm a take a shower guy. Like, I used to shave for every race. I kinda, like, hit or miss it sometimes. Like, it just it kinda depends. And but, like, I haven't missed a shower before a race, but, like, obviously, the timing of that changes or, like, you know, like, etcetera. Yeah. You know, I've changed this year going into it.

I've changed a little bit of my warm up pattern, and then I've added some harder, longer accelerations into it just to try to open the system up a little bit here early in the season. So it's just, like, always adapting and flowing with, you know, where you're at, what you're dealing with. I mean, how far the track is from the thing. I mean, a lot of people don't understand, like, you go to me, like, using Accorint invite, for example. Like, if I go race at Accorint, like, my warm up for that is completely different than I go to Diamond League because my my call time for Diamond League is, you know, usually 20, 30, 40 minutes for a race. And sometimes there's, you know depending on what the call room pattern is, you don't really know

Yeah.

Unless your agent can kind of give you a little bit of like, hey. There's tracking side. They're going to give you time in there. They're not going to give you time in there. Mhmm. So almost at 20, 30 minutes to go for a race. You have to be ready to go because you don't know what your your period's gonna be in there. And if there's gonna be a delay in the call room, like, you have to you can hope you get more strides in or hope you get a little bit more warm up in.

But, like, once you kind of leave that warm barrier, it's like you're just you should be ready

to go. Yeah.

Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. There was, like when you came when you were on the table, like, maybe a month ago, month and a half, it was like a because we didn't really know because you because you haven't raised. And so but when you were on the table, it was like this, like, different type of energy. And it or no. It it it was a week before you you left for China, and there was, like, this different type of, like, energy about you. And I was like, man, he's ready to rock and roll.

And then we were kinda chit chatting, and it was just like I was like, I think he's gonna run well. And Yeah. Dude, like, when I saw those results, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, 145, great opener, good good heat. And it's just like, yeah, you just kinda fell like you said, you fell right back into that mode again, and you're ready to rock and roll. And, it's super exciting. And I think, honestly, like, having the winner to kind of reset yourself and have that time to, like, reflect and to grow from it, I mean, was huge for you. Yeah.

It's just really exciting.

Yeah. I mean, decision making, like I said earlier, is, like, a huge piece of, I think, who I am as an athlete. Like Yeah. I think if you go back to when I was young, like, a lot of people said, like, I was a very smart racer. And, like, I got away from that as I got, like, into, like, a lull in my career. And I'd have quirks of it and moments of it, and then I'd have races where I'd just be like look back on it and be like, what the hell was I doing? Like, that

was terrible.

And I think, like, last year, like, LA was an example of that. Like, I didn't run the perfect race in LA, but I made the right decisions Yeah. To put myself in a position to win. And on that day, I was able to come out with the win, but I feel like that's one of those races I chalk up is, like, I should have been top 3 no matter what based on the decisions I made. Right. And, like, there are certain races like, even the prelims in in Budapest, like, I made some of the right decisions, like, looking back on it, but, like, I wasn't confident in my decisions. So there's, like, some hesitation in, like, when I should have went, what I should have done. Like, was it gonna have the legs? Whereas in China, it's like, I truly had no idea I was gonna have the legs.

Like, in in the 2nd race, like, I chose the rail. And, like, the rail somewhat chose me, but I ended up choosing the rail. And I ran a 10800 and probably 1 meters the whole race. And think I've ever ran a shorter 800 in my career in that race. But, like, there was, like, 2 moments I remember, like, 150 to go. I had to make a decision, like, do I wait here? Do I go around? Like, do I swing wide, or do I just, like, wait? And I was like, I'll be patient, and the gap opened. And then with 80 meters to go, I made the same decision. I'm like, am I gonna have to swing around these 2 guys and fight, or do I risk it and, like, I see him swinging wide? It was like a decision where it was like there was a hesitation, but it was like a decision making hesitation.

It wasn't like a, I don't really know what I should do if I'm gonna have the legs if I go around them. Like, I was like, if I go around them, I'm still beating them. If I go on the inside, I'm still beating them. It's like, what do I think the best decision is? Yeah.

Do you feel like from because, I mean, from trials in 21, when you ran, what, 140

3? 3 low and yeah. Low and change.

And you basically split what if 53, 50, like, 53

It's like 52, 51. Yeah. It was 52, 51. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, just so negative. Yeah. But then after that, it was slower pace to kick, essentially.

Mhmm.

And so having have gone through that the last couple years and you saying, like, you know, I wanna kinda be prepared for all, is that something that, like, you've just kinda, like, noticed is that now they're starting to slow it down that 1st lap, and it's like, look, like, I know they're making it more even because you're a guy who can basically come back that second lap, like, hammering where most people tend to not be able to handle that. So you're just preparing for that.

I think the 800 has shifted from 800 shifted from, like, 2010 through, like, 2017, 2018. Like, the Rhodesia era was, like, very much, like, cutthroat.

It was just hammer.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there still is guys who wanna cutthroat, like like Marco and Kenya Mal, and, like, there's guys on the circuit who who want a hammer. But there's also guys that are extremely savvy. Like, the Algerians are extremely savvy racers, and Korea is an extremely savvy racer. And those guys, at the end of the day, like, don't care what the pace is. Like, it's it's a race like 2016 1500 final with Matthew. Like, Matthew controlled that race even when he wasn't in first. And that's, like, the one thing that Matthew does so well and, like, the greatest guys in the world do well so well is, like, Radisha controlled every race he was in. Yeah.

Now, obviously, Radisha is, you know, a different scenario than what some people are. Like, I hope to go to LA and control the race from whatever position I'm in. Like, that's kinda how I wanna do it. It's like, I feel like Moola right now controlled Shanghai. Yeah. Like, if you go back and watch, like, that race. Like, Moola controlled that race even though he wasn't leading. And so I have to be able to almost, like, control the race in a sense or be in control of my own race.

Feel like you're in control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So and that's the other thing too that I wanted to bring up is the idea of, like, yeah, you're running, you know, the diamond league, but it's also like, what about rounds? And how does that change things? And how does that set you up with all that?

Yeah. I mean, I think we've always trained that way since I've been with coach. Mhmm. We always look at, like, we have to train 3 days. We have to train for 3 races. Like, that's why in my career, like, one off races are somewhat times hit or miss for me because I honestly get better as rounds go on compared to other guys. That's for sure. So I think for me, like, I've always trained that way.

It's always in our back pocket. We're always strength based because of that. I mean, we've already thought about it. Like, we've already talked about Paris and the fact of, like, there's now a day off between the prelims and the semis. And they're doing that recharge or a riparian round that we're winning. So I didn't know. If, like, you qualify outright in the 1st round, like, you have a day off and you come back in the semis, and then I believe it's semis finals. Oh, wow.

So, like, there's already like, we're already prepared to, like, that first day is gonna be hard. And so, like, we've already talked about, like, I have to be ready for, like, one off races because that's a one off race in retrospect. We also have to be ready for the semifinal because the semifinal is gonna be cutthroat because we now have, like, that day off. Or, usually, the semifinals where I shine because, like, 24 hours is,

like, a dog dog. That lack of rest to your advantage.

Right. So now it's like we're we're shifting a little bit of training. We're focused on, you know, the one off type races. And then Mhmm.

At the

same time, we're in our back pocket of, like, hey. That final is only 24 hours after the the semis. So it's, like, swings back when the in the other direction.

To salivate and just

Yeah. How was it at the trials? Is it kind of the same old same old? Normal.

Yeah. So Thursday, Friday, Sunday. So it's normal. I mean, for me at trial is like I mean, it's like I don't know. I look at trials and standards in somewhat of, like, an arrogant way of, like, if I can't hit the Olympic standard or, like, be top 30 in the world or, like, really make the final at trials, like, and be top 3, then, like like, I can't be a medalist in Paris. And it's like Yeah. That's that's what I'm here for. Like like, you you said, like, the trial standard.

Like, I'm like, I don't even know it was a trial standard. Like, it's just like that's why I run this sport, sport, and that's why I do what I do. And we've had this conversation with 1 table and, like, like, I run the sport to be the best in the world. Like, so for me, like, trials is just rounds 1, 2, 3 of Paris.

This is maybe a little bit of a pivot, but at what point in your career did you realize that you had the potential to be one of the best in the world? Like, when did that, like, sink in?

I think in 2015 when I qualified for USA's. I think that when I qualified for USACE and I kind of that's when I kind of learned when everything worked. Like, in in high school, I had no idea there was pro circuit. And even my freshman year of college, I had no idea there was really a pro circuit. Like, I truly just was kinda like this little naive kid, like Right. And I qualified for for USAs off my indoor time at Penn State, and I remember that. And it qualified me, and I was like, oh, this is kinda cool. Like, I get to run the USAs against these, like, bros.

And then obviously that summer was, you know, getting to take next spot in Beijing, kinda, like, solidified and stamped it, like I made the semifinal, technically, on a

place outside of the US.

So what happened with the the 2015 again?

So I was 4th USAs, so I qualified for Pan Am's and NACAC seniors. So I ran Pan Am's. I won Pan Am's. I qualified for Nakax. I finished it second at Nakax. And I remember sitting by the pool, like, 2 or 3 days before the race, actually. And I remember somebody was like, yo. Like, you're gonna go to worlds.

And I'm like, nah. Like, no. No. No. No. Like, Nick's not taking the spot. Like, he's a 100% not taking this. Like, knowing Nick and, like, guys were just, like, Wheaton was there.

He's, like, knowing Nick and, like, what he's saying? Like, he's not taking the spot.

So what was Nick saying again at the time?

Pretty much like he didn't wanna sign the the agreement to Okay. You know, wear the gear and, you know, represent all this stuff and do all this And, I mean, I don't know. It's I say it every day. Like, our sport's not professional.

Right.

And, like, that's, like, a retrospect of, like, if you have to make a stand, like, if your stand for, like, what you feel like has changed is, like, at the world championship level, like, not a professional meet, like, I don't it's it's this it was just such a weird situation. And, obviously, I'm a young kid, and I just remember checking my the whole weekend. And I got a call from from Duffy in my hotel room after the night after that race, and he's like, you want to be shing? And I got back here. I live in college still. Got back here, and I was, like, scrambling to find a visa and send in my passport. Like, I sent my passport to LA and back in, like, I think it it was, like, 36 hours from, like, door to door. It was crazy stuff.

What a

wild time that was. It was insane. And then, obviously, like

I mean,

you were on the team with him.

I was. Well, for his freshman year.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

I remember, like, Beijing, like, I walked out in the bird's nest, like, semi or the prelims, I was like it was, like, usually on the prelims, 8:00 in the morning. And so, like, I walked out, and I didn't even, like, you know, it was just another race there. And then at night, I walked out for that semifinal race. And I remember, like, most races let you out, like, at the 100 meter start and you kinda run down.

Yeah.

And I remember getting out and I looked up, and I was like, I remember that's, like, the biggest mistake I ever made.

Because I

think if I hadn't looked up, it was just another race.

Yeah.

Like, I would have never even registered where I was at.

Right.

But I registered where I was at, and it was one of those things where, like yeah. Like, do I even belong here? It worked as like a it is like a fight the whole time of flight.

Again, that's that mental side of it. Mhmm.

I would

I should just if I'd I think if I hadn't looked up, I think I would have, like, made that final.

Yeah. Well, that's the thing. Right? So that's the advantage of right now being the 29 year old, and you've run numerous times at Hayward, and you've run numerous times in all these different stadiums all over the world. I mean, you're telling me the 1 China Stadium is one of the best ones you've ever been in.

It's like The first China Stadium is yeah. I mean, it was like it's not the biggest stadium, but, I mean, it's as big as, you know it's not as big as London Stadium, obviously, being an Olympic Stadium. But, I mean, it's a major regional world stadium, and it's so nice. Like Is that the bird's nest? No. No. So we ran in shaman, like Shamans.

That's how you say it. Okay.

Yeah. Shaman and Shaman. So No.

It's it's with an x, so it, like, throws everybody off. I'd say I

I said Xiamen.

Xiamen. That's what I said.

And then my agents, like, was shaman. Shaman.

Oh, alright.

Yeah. I mean, it's I mean, part of Wanda's takeover of Diamond League was to have 2 Chinese meats on the calendar. Yeah. Obviously, COVID, you know, it's finally allowed.

But they did a good job.

They're good. I I think the the I think the first meets the second meet is supposed to be in Shanghai. So the Shanghai stadium, the hotel is connected to the stadium, which is a huge factor for athletes. Like, literally, like, if you're on, like, the 6th, 7th, 8th floor of that hotel, like, you overlook the front stretch of the track. Pretty cool. So it's like there's a huge piece of that factor of, like, not traveling and not have to do anything and not worry about bus rides. And there's a reason that and that stadium's historically much faster stadium. The one in Soju was just I think there's a little bit of fatigue from that first race, and then I just don't think the track in that stadium is as fast.

And I think it would show

that that was

they're remodeling the track surface in Shanghai, and then I think there was an issue with some of, like, the Shanghai logistics at the time.

Now a little bit of a lateral step here. Do you know anything about the Paris Stadium? Purple track. That's all I know.

So I know it's 400 meters around, and I have to run 2 laps really, really fast. 6 On a purple track. And on a purple track.

Have you ever run on a purple track?

I don't

think so. I mean, I think blue tracks

What's your favorite color?

Whatever purple. I'm on. Better check, I gotta run fast, though.

That's cool. Yeah.

Wow. That's interesting. Alright. So we're we're kinda coming kinda close to the end of this. So, you know, the the last little bit of the podcast here, we like to kinda isolate each of us and go through, like, a little quick sprint and, you know, so just a little bit of a tidbit on some of the things that you can kinda tell the the the listeners on what you do on a daily basis that might help them out. Zach, we'll go and kinda start with you. Is

Yeah. I just actually thought of 1. Yeah. And I thought of it yesterday. So I went for a run after work yesterday. Did a 6 mile trail run, right down the road from the clinic, and I felt really heavy because of work. Just were just having, like, a full day. And so rather than forcing the run, I let the rant the like, the ran.

The run come to me. So I just let myself relax into it, and I actually, like, was able to feel really good by the end of it rather than trying to force it. So let it come to you. Let whatever come to you.

This is an important conversation as you get older because, you know, I'm 41, and, like, legitimately, it's a good day if I can start my run under 8 minute pace for the 1st mile because I'm I just my muscles and tendons are leather, and I realize it's only gonna get worse from here. So you just have to, like, just chill and just kinda get through those first mile or 2 and then start to loosen up and cut it down.

That's yeah. That's where I'm at too.

I would say, my little tidbit to people would be, working on visualization, and, you know, there's there's a saying out there that you must run away a race a 1000 times before you even tow the line. And I think that's an important concept, and now that we're entering, kind of, the the true racing season for heading into the Olympics, and and as people kinda get into their summer series and kinda spring marathon series, it's important for people to sort of understand that that idea of visualization and and and putting your giving your brain an idea of what you wanted to do in terms of, like, the action of it, rather than just kinda having this this goal of I wanna run this time. You actually kinda see yourself through that process. I think that's an important component. What about you, Clayton?

I talked to a coach about it today. I think a lot of people think every single week or every single workout, you have to, like, make drastic improvements. Yeah. And I think especially when you're, like, talking about, like, going into your racing season, season, especially championship seasons for a lot of, like, younger athletes who are in their championship season now or, you know, you go on your your your summer series races where you're kind of, like, in your championship series.

Mhmm.

Like, our goal is always to move horizontally or forward. Like, never make decisions that risk us going backwards. Like, today was a day where it's like, what can we do that's enough of a workout to move us, like, horizontally horizontally forward but doesn't risk us going backwards where it's like, I can't do Sunday's high intensity 800 meter workout or then we've got to push another workout and do another thing. It's like, when I text you, like, 3 or 4 days ago, it's like, like, this isn't right. Yeah. What can we do to, like, treat it and get this fixed so I can continue to work out at least somewhat on schedule. Like, I get it if I gotta move stuff around 24 hours or, like, shift the strength workout and a speed workout around to be able to, like, you know, allow it to kind of let itself go. Like, we shifted Thursday to Friday, but we kept Sunday's workouts.

So, like, I didn't lose a workout. We just adjusted it from high intensity Meyers workout to kind of more of a slow strength workout to kinda let itself open up. And I think we moved horizontally. And then Sunday is one of those workouts where, like, theoretically, we're gonna move forward with because we're gonna take what I did a couple weeks ago and elevate it a little bit and then just kinda continue to training isn't like this, but it should be, like, up plateau, up plateau, up plateau. You just don't wanna have any big down clients.

I got the perfect word for it. Adaptability.

You you were how many times did

you this year? Wait. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you a few minutes. Like, great like right when you started out, I was like, I know exactly what you're gonna say.

Yeah. I felt this like heat surge over here, like, the minute he got it.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I mean, I think that's the theme of this podcast. This episode is the flexibility side of it.

Mhmm.

You know, training and living in Northeast Ohio, like, yeah, we got a great training grounds. We have tons of indoor tracks and, you know, just a great infrastructure, but in the end, you went to China to do your rest buster because you couldn't run hard here because the weather. And then it's like, so you just gotta be flexible. Now we're talking a little bit about being flexible with your body. You know, the the hamstring and and some of the areas didn't feel so good, so, like, let's kind of adapt and pivot and change based on that. We'll adjust the treatments and the therapy, but, like, you know, in the end, you're just progressing forward.

Yeah. I mean, all the cogs that we all have to work together. Coach, me, YouTube, JT, like, my our team, like, works together. And I think that's, like, one thing that I was talking with somebody. I did an interview in China for Diamond League, and we talked about she talked about, like, what's one thing that, like, people don't realize? And I'm, like, I think all people realize, like, I'm the one on the start list and, like, there's no team behind me. Like, in a lot of sports, there's, like, an athlete in a team. Like, there's no team listed next to me.

Yeah.

But, like, when I cross the line of any race, it's like a team a true team effort.

Sure.

Because, like, it takes, you know, your expertise on how my body feels on the table, then Zach's expertise to, you know, relay how he felt and then the lifting and coach's feedback and how I looked and how I felt and then my feedback and then JT's translation of coach's, you know, madness. Like, there's there's true, like, there's true, like, inner workings of, like, a team to make an athlete work. And I think every good athlete in the world has that.

Well, I think it's more like a it's more like Formula 1, you know, where, you know, you see a you see a victory there, and and then all of a sudden you see the team going crazy and doing all that sort of stuff. And it's like, yeah, there was somebody that drove the car and that was you, and that's, like, the vast majority of it. But there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes and,

dude, don't pump don't pump him up with Formula 1. Alright? Don't do it.

I thought you were gonna say Leo's pumping himself up about being part of the team.

Dude, here we go.

No, dude. No. You don't need to be an f one. Like, no. We don't need to have him be formula 1. He's too into it. You're gonna get his head

Well, he went to a your was that your first Formula 1? Yeah.

It was my 4th 1st race

in Shanghai. Yeah.

It was, like, incredible experience.

Do you fanboy?

Oh, yeah. 100%.

Did Max win that race?

What do you

expect? And he's

gonna win this weekend in Miami. I know this comes out after, but we get to say, like, Max Verstappen won the Miami Grand Prix.

Heck, yeah. Alright. Yeah. I think that's a good, good close for us. And so thank you guys for, listening in and, you know, be sure to subscribe subscribe and check out our future content and and give us some comments about what you liked and some future stuff you wanna hear. But, again, thanks for watching and listening, and so till another time. Thank you. Thank you.