In this episode Trisha interviews Tanya Crossman. Tanya is the Director of Research and International Education at TCK Training, and also offers intercultural consulting and coaching services. She has lived in four countries, and has nearly two decades of experience working with Third Culture Kids and international families.

They discuss TCKs -Third Culture Kids -and their experience of living in other cultures and how their perspectives of that culture are often different to their parents. Tanya’s research into TCKs and their identity formation and the shifts they make as the develop their own awareness are illustrated with her own experiences. 

Tanya is the author of Misunderstood: The Impact of Growing Up Overseas in the 21st Century and the upcoming Thongs or Flip-Flops? Australian kids overseas and what comes next. You can connect with Tanya on Linked In and Instagram

I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

Hi there, everyone.

I'm Trisha Carter, an organisational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The shifts in thinking as those of you who will have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware.

Cultural intelligence. CQ The capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas motivational, knowledge, metacognitive, behavioural, and they can all help us as we move across cultures. And today I'm speaking with someone who has moved across cultures often. Tanya, I'd like to introduce my friend. Actually, if you were listening to the episode with Grace Mungkaje, you might have heard me reference Tanya Crossman as well as I alluded in the earlier episode.

Tanya is the director of Research and International Education at TCK Training, and she offers intercultural consulting and coaching services. She has lived in four countries and has nearly two decades of experience working with third culture kids that TCK thing again and they're international families. Tanya is the author of Misunderstood the Impact of growing Up Overseas in the 21st Century and she's got a new one coming out.

Thongs or flip flops, Australian kids overseas and what comes next? That one sounds exciting. Welcome, Tanya.

Thank you. So good to be here.

And full confession. Tanya and I worked together on a global board, on a global team. It was a virtual team, ah, we were probably the closest people to each other, although I think we only actually met in person once or twice.

Well, that's just it. I think most of the time we are on the board together, I was living in China, but I would come through Sydney to visit family a fair bit.

And then we all went into lockdown and.

I think, I moved to Australia. After you left the board. I can't remember at all time goes a bit wobbly in a pandemic.

It was a wibbly wobbly, timey wimey in that period. Anyway, we have we have lots of experience together, so great to be able to unpack some of it here today and I'm going to give Tanya the standard questions we give everyone. So first of all, Tanya, what is a culture other than the culture you grew up in that you have learned to love and appreciate?

Well, the classic answer for me was got to be Chinese culture. So I lived most of my adult life in China. But it's important for me to specify that. For me, this means northern China I lived in. It's Beijing in the Hebei province. It's sometimes I think people are unaware of just how big China is culturally. And so it's northern Chinese culture that I really identify, with less

so the southern culture.

Yeah, and I'm sure there's lots of things you miss from there.

Food in particular.

Yes.

I had to learn to cook. I only cooked Chinese food after I left.

And you left in a bit of a hurry. Thanks to the pandemic.

I was I'd been gone for a few months before I realized I'd left. Really.

Yes, when you went out. And they wouldn't let you back in again.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Very topsy turvy kind of life.

Yeah. A special culture and a place that will hold lots of special memories for you as well.

Yes, definitely. And. And I'd left before I'd left in 2014 to come and do some study in Sydney. And I didn't think I'd be going back. So I did a full farewell then and said goodbye and then ended up moving back again later. And so in some ways that made the unexpected, leaving easier. I'd been through some of those rituals, but you know, it's never easy to have an unplanned exit for sure.

Just to our sort of second standard. Question, I'm curious about a time when you might have experienced The Shift, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective, a new way of thinking or seeing things.

Part of what is different about my China experiences the age at which I moved. So I work with a lot of people who grow up overseas as children and parents who moved as adults. I moved as a young adult. I moved at age 21. I'm quite a young and naive 21 in a lot of ways. I went to do my last year of university.

At a Chinese university, the student district in Beijing is incredibly diverse. There are people from literally all over the world. There's lots of scholarships. So you have students coming in from other countries on scholarships, plus you have other students coming in like me, who are doing these language programs. I mean, in my first six months in China, I must have met people from almost every country of the world.

I'd regularly be be around a lunch table of 12 people, and they're from eight or ten different countries, and that was my standard experience for six months. So I wasn't just engaging in Chinese culture, which I was. There were a lot of other cultures I was mixing in primarily the Chinese Indonesian culture and a sort of Pan-African culture made up of all African students.

And when I think of the shift, there's this one moment that really sticks with me. I've been out to dinner with a bunch of friends, and two of us had got to the street to get cabs first. And this is someone who I have called my Gei Gei, my big brother, for years and years and years. Almost immediately I met him.

We had this sort of big brother, little sister kind of relationship. He's Nigerian and a few days before he was had been in a taxi together and he had sneakily paid the full amount to the taxi driver even though he was in the first stop and the rest of us were getting out later. I was busy being taught French songs from Burundi and Central African Republic Friends in the backseat.

So we weren't paying that much attention to the amount of money he passed back until I got out and were like, Hang on a minute, he's paid the whole fare like. And so I this is my first time seeing him, and I was teasing him about this, you know, as very classic Australian cultural way of interacting with people you're close to, right?

You tease each other, you make fun of each other. And this is my way as an Australian to show affection, to say thank you is to be mean, right to tease and, you know, like sort of bounce off but right over. And he just quietly and gently was like it was a what was asking why this was my reaction.

You know what why can't you just say thank you? And for whatever reason, it struck me in that moment, Why why can't I just say thank you? Why is it my go to reaction, to tease and to mock and to give someone a hard time? And it was the first time I really stopped to interrogate my own cultural comfort zone.

And that moment, it was just a tiny moment. It was a couple of seconds, but it stuck with me. I was barely 22 and it was my first time being exposed to so many different cultures and it really set the stage for what would happen over the next ten plus years. Living in Beijing, Beijing and Langfang, where one of being in this place, it gave me an opportunity to continue learning and growing and shifting.

I think if I hadn't had that moment of shift where I had the thought, what if there is a different way to do this? What if I Well, I got outside my mind and was able to look at myself externally. Yeah, because someone I loved and trusted just asked a question. He didn't say anything. He didn't tell me anything.

He didn't said anything wrong. He just asked a simple question Why can't you say thank you?

It's really interesting. One of the threads that I'm noticing is that there's often somebody like that in people's stories, somebody that we know respect, trust, appreciate, and they are able to help us shift in ways that perhaps somebody else wouldn't, which is really interesting.

And the trust we have with someone impacts our ability to hear their words. Absolutely.

Yeah. And there is significant research around cultural intelligence in perceived trust. So that's interesting as well. But that's getting a bit nerdy. Sorry, taking it away from me. The deep personal moment that that was. Yeah.

I mean, you knew me well enough to know that I'm all in on the nerdy stuff.

You love the nerdy. Absolutely. You grew up as a TCK, is that right?

Yeah. So actually, my first time on a plane, I was 15 months old going from Australia to the US because of my dad's job. Very first flight, this, like, long haul over the Pacific. Yeah. So I was learning to talk in the US. Basically. I had like Mum and dada and not much else until we get to the US and then you're back in Australia.

Moved around there and then at 13 our family moved back over a different part of the US. This time now with my two younger sisters, lived there for a few years, going to local American school and then back again to Australia and then over to China at 21 for university.

Okay, so what's the technical definition of a TCK?

You know, there are a few things thrown around, for me I prefer a more sort of, for lack of a better word, strict, narrow definition. And that is that a third culture kid is someone who lives in a country where they are not a citizen, but also don't intend to stay and become a citizen. There is intention. The assumption of intention is that they will leave and go, quote unquote, home to their passport country at some point.

And this is happening before they turn 18, usually accompanying their family. The reason I prefer that that tight definition of a third culture kid is because when we look at Ruth Van Reken cross-cultural kid model and there being, you know, 10,12 different ways that we can have cross-cultural experiences those layer on top of each other, you could have three, four or five six different types of cross-cultural experiences, and this is intersectionality of cross-cultural experiences.

So for me, the key part of the third culture kid, as opposed to all these other cross-cultural experiences, is you’re growing up in a country that you have no legal right to and you know you can't stay and you can't keep it. You are legally attached to a company, a country that you may not have lived in and you may not have that same emotional connection to.

Now, the experience is different for everybody, but I think that that's the crux of what makes a TCK experience different to other experiences is that that that lack of overlap between the place I am legally permitted to live and the place I am building my emotional connections.

Yeah, right. As we do as children build those emotional connections to where we are.

Yeah. I hear all these stories of kids who grew up in countries that know they turn 18 and that's it. They're out. They have no legal right to be there anymore because they're not dependents of their parents anymore. And it may be a country that's really hard to get a visa to like Saudi Arabia. So their home is off limits overnight.

Yeah, that's really difficult. I use the term unrequited love a lot to talk about the TCK relationship with countries they've grown up in that they feel really warm towards. But there's no commitment from the countries. I know you're not one of us. You don't belong. You have no rights here.

Well, one of the things I was reading on your website was a blog you had written about how the perspective of parents in that sort of situation who are probably, you know, the ex-pats, they might be, you know, businesspeople, diplomats, missionaries, you know, educators. And they are working and they probably see the experience quite differently than the experience of the children.

And so you've done some research into that, haven't you?

Yeah, I spent most of the last ten years doing original research around third culture kids. I can't seem to stop the addiction. I told you I was nerdy, it’s all about the numbers right! So what is most interesting for me is what what happens is as we're growing up, what we experienced during childhood, maybe during adolescence as well, that that's our norm.

That's what we think is normal and natural. This is how the world works. So for cross-cultural kids, they're interacting with at least two more, maybe more cultures. And those different cultures are telling them how the world works because culture is an inheritance.

Is that because cross-cultural kids have often got mum one culture, dad another culture, or there.

Are lots of different ways to be a cross-cultural kid. It just means that for whatever reason, and that's one of the reasons you you're interacting with more than one culture. Maybe you're a minority, maybe you're an immigrant family, maybe you are, you know, bicultural, biracial, but you have multiple cultural influences, which means that more than one culture is telling you what the rules are telling you how to be a good child, a successful student, a good citizen to succeed in life.

Because the answers to those questions are different in every cultural framework.

Yes.

And if you're raised cross culturally, you get more than one set of answers, which means that what is normal and comfortable to you, your cultural comfort zone includes more than one set of answers about how the world works. And so what is comfortable for across cultural kids. The culture kid is going to be a broader space than what is comfortable for their parents.

So when when they go into a new country together, they're having the same set of experiences on the outside. How they're interpreting those experiences is different. So parents come with an established, informed worldview and they look at these new experiences through their formed lens. Their children are still in the process of forming a worldview, and so they internalize these new cultural experiences, and those new cultural experiences become part of their identity and worldview and perspective on life.

And repertoire behaviour’s.

Yeah, it does influence them differently.

So is some of what you do. Helping the parents to see the perspective of the children.

Is a huge part of what I do. And helping parents let go of some of the stress that they carry around raising their children in an environment that's not familiar to them, where they can't see, well, how does this how does this happen? What's the way forward where they don't have models of what success looks like? You know, they like, well, this is how my parents raised me and how their parents raised them.

But that's not going to work in this situation. So what do I do when I'm flying blind? And so being able to give them all this research from how this has worked for thousands of other families and, you know, being able to reassure them that they're doing a good job.

And they really need that ability to see the child's perspective.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Probably not so critical. Kids never seem to need to see the parents perspective, but.

Well, but also, it's it's not their job. As a kid. And their job is to learn how to be a person.

Yes.

Is probably enough work for anyone that young.

Yeah, absolutely. And especially, you know, when you are in that in that non-binary cultural perspective where there's nothing that's necessarily one way or the other, but lots of possibilities. And so a child can, you know, choose how they want to operate in different circles and different environments and then be different when they come back home again. Quite possibly.

That is exactly what happens for a lot of TCKs where they are a different version of themselves in each environment. Depending on their situation, it might be with both the different sets of grandparents, different sides of the family. They have to operate differently every day. They hit the school gate and they switch from home mode to school mode and back again.

It might be inside the house. Outside the house looks different and there could be a whole mixture of all of these different things happening. It might be every time they move, every time they go to a new country, they've got to learn a new set of ways. Every school has a different way of doing things. And so you get these situations where rules come to conflict.

For example, in some cultures, a common classroom rule is eye contact shows that you're listening. So you have have teachers even in like small, young primary school classroom, say, 1 to 3 eyes on me. Right? So if you're looking at me, I know that you're listening to me. Well, you contrast that to other cultures in which you show respect through eye contact.

So if you look at someone in the eyes, it says that you an equal. So a child would never meet the eyes of an adult, especially one that's not, you know, they're actual like very close relatives. They would never meet the eyes of a teacher. And so you end up in a situation where a student is doing their best to be respectful and the teacher thinks they're being disobedient, they're not listening, or a student is doing their best to be respectful and quiet and listening and the teacher thinks they're being very disrespectful and rebellious, and all they've done is change classrooms.

The behaviour hasn't changed, just the classroom expectations. And so there's a million examples like that that happens as these children move around the world and it can lead to them constantly acting. I have to be a different person in each place. Well, but which bit's actually me. Which of these rules is who I actually am?

And I think we were speaking when you were talking about your shift. You were speaking as an adult and you're speaking as having that moment of recognition that your culture was one way and there were other ways of operating. And so it was a very clear dual perspective that you saw and you realized there were options.

But you don't realize that's what you're doing when you're a child. What was fascinating for me is I had adapted more than I realized in the States. It was survival, right? Especially because I was a bit older at 14 going into a high school. Huge school, 2600 students, and the only Australian, by the way. So any time I opened my mouth, everyone knew who I was and that I matched that piece of gossip that they heard a year ago.

Yup.

Fabulous. But at, But at 14, if you get something wrong because the cultural norms are different, people assume you're doing it on purpose. There is no grace for you being a kid who maybe messed something up. And I would regularly be in in situations where the vibe was saying I'd done something wrong, but I had no idea what I'd done wrong, which meant I had no idea how to fix it, both socially and in classrooms.

It didn't help that I'm autistic and so I'm a bit slow on the uptake when it comes to the social stuff, anyway. But you know, culturally, nobody was going to help me out on that stuff. I should know it already, right? I'm speaking the same language. So therefore we have the same culture, right? No. But what I didn't realize was how much of that I'd adapted and understood without consciously processing any of the whys of it.

I just did what I had to do until I was in my, in China, in my, you know, mid to late twenties, working in environments where there were a lot of Americans, where I had a lot of friends who are Americans and I'm like, Oh, I already know how to do this and that. And we're going to lunch with some Australians and some Americans and cringing or what some of the Australians are doing and like, Oh, you can't do that with Americans.

How do I know that? Like, Oh, because I've already had a couple of years of practice at this and I didn't realize that that had happened as a child until I was having these adult experiences.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Because it's not conscious when you're a child.

No, that's right. Some years ago, I was doing a CQ assessment with an interculturalist who had grown up as a TCK, and she completed the CQ assessment and in the CQ strategy section, she came out right down almost at the non-existent end of planning, which is one of the subcategories sub capabilities of CQ strategy, which is the whole metacognitive how you think about stuff.

And then in awareness she came up very high and she was sort of mediocre in checking, which are the three subcategories of of CQ strategy and they're all about thinking and what you think about culture. And when I showed her the results and she said, Do you know when I read the questions about planning, I thought there are probably going to be negatively scored.

And so, you know, you would get that as a as a nerdy person. And I hope people understand what we're saying. So she did not think that they would be scored as a real item. She thought that if you planned it would be something negative. But in reality, many adults will constantly plan. So, you know, if I'm going into an environment where I need to introduce myself, I'll be thinking, who's in the room?

Do I need to do my Australian casual? Hi, it's Trisha, or I'm here to do facilitate or do I need to do? Hi, I'm Trisha Carter. I'm an organisational psychologist. I've been working with this organisation for four years now, and I'm going to, you know, so the formal that you know, so I will do my planning to think about rather than, you know, just winging it because I won't necessarily wing it Well.

And and when she saw the planning and saw the awareness, she said, you know, I'm a TCK. I grew up a TCK. TCKs don't plan. They scan. All my life I've been walking into a room scanning and behaving appropriately.

Deciding who to be. This is fascinating because I think of myself as a planner, right? I like to plan everything ahead. But you describe that scenario. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I don't plan that stuff you describe planning - how are you going to do it yourself? I might not. I wouldn't do that. I'd be waiting to see who's in the room before I decide how I introduce myself.

I've never even occurred to me.

And the reason I do that is because I'm mucked it up badly once and was very aware afterwards after everybody introduced themselves with their academic qualifications, their full titles, you know, their publications. And I was just left with Hi I’m Trisha from Sydney. I'm going to be talking about this.

Well, that's just it. I have all these different versions of myself depending on the context. I‘m in, and this is I mean, I'm right in this moment, like assessing conversations I've had with others, why I find certain things I, I am in general an extremely plan it all out person. I'm very organized a very admin and I'm very event planner kind of a person.

But when it comes to presenting and the introductions and that kind of stuff, I do a lot of that off the cuff and I'm comfortable doing. I'm more comfortable doing it off the cuff because how do I know what's required until I'm in the situation? Because I don't know who those people are and what it's going to be like until I'm there.

I've got to have all of my bags of tricks ready and I'll pull the appropriate one once I can see. And I didn't realize that's what I was doing. Yeah, fascinating. But it does fit with the TCK style profile and in a lot of ways, my TCK-ness is solidified by moving to China. So yeah, as a 21 year old still working out the world and who I was, my my sisters are much less TCK than me in many ways, even though they spent really the same amount of time overseas, other than, you know, as a toddler, when you talk about the actual experiences they've had, they have all of these classic TCK,

experiences, but it doesn't really impact their sense of identity and who they are in the way it does me. And I think it's because they came back to Australia and stayed, whereas I left again and stayed outside for most of my adulthood.

And remodeled yourself again.

Yeah. Which wasn't my plan. But that's that's what happened largely because of that shift. And I saw how much else was out there to learn.

Your expertise as an author. You've written Misunderstood, which is, you know, it's become one of the TCK books that are highly recommended for parents and TCKs themselves. And you know, I've read some of the comments of TCKs having read it and going, Oh, you just explained my life so well, and you just feel for the people in and can imagine their hearts in those moments.

And I'm sure that gives you great joy because in effect, you are opening doors to help people see themselves really clearly, which is the gift of every author, I guess. I'm wondering, what are some of the mental shifts you made along the way in the process of writing that and that might have come out of the research as well, which which might be different than the process of writing.

But yeah, what, what, what shifts do you think you made as you were, as you were going through that process?

So many. I was talking to someone just recently about how writing is not an individual pursuit. It really is a community effort because if it wasn't for the contributions of others and in particular getting me to change how I saw things, the book would not be what it is. There are so many points along the way. I mean, I could give you six different shift moments where something changed in how I saw what I was doing and why I was doing it.

I think one of the biggest shifts for me was when I transitioned to really understanding the parent's point of view that, you know, something I mentioned earlier about recognizing just how much stress and anxiety and fear and often guilt or shame parents were carrying that these were parents doing their absolute best and sometimes still missing it, not because they weren't loving and caring and trying their hardest, but because this was just so different, what their kids were experiencing was so different to what they'd grown up with.

That all of their experience of living as a child or a teenager and the community they grew up in just didn't apply. And they were lost. And often all it took was just a couple of pieces of advice to just change how they saw their kids and parented. And I realized that I could do so much more and be of much more help by working with parents.

And so that was part of what led to the book being written. But then, I first was just putting together a resource and then someone I'd given it to, to to read was like, well, everything in here’s factually true, but where's where's the passion and the stories? Like you're more energetic talking about the standing in line with the grocery store with me than you are in these pages, like, yeah, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this properly.

It's going to be an actual book and I can't get out of it anymore. But that reminder that passion matters and I had that reminder again today actually from someone else in a completely different context. And then I think, you know, another one that's important for me was when I when I do, you know, I've done so much research that often the results are less surprising because it's mostly been confirming what I've seen in a smaller pool.

So I interviewed 250 TCKs for the book. So when I did the survey survey, 750, it's a larger representation, but the results were kind of in line with what I was expecting from the from the qualitative work. What was more surprising was the beta reading. Sending it out to adult TCKs to read either a chapter or a, you know, whatever.

I get the responses back and they're saying, Oh, I was bawling, I'm crying. I didn't know other people thought the same thing. I did all this kind of stuff and I'm like, That's great, but I now need to reset, rewrite the entire book so that it works for the adult TCKs as well, because I might think I'm aiming for the parents, but it's for the adult TCKs too.

And I did. I rewrote the entire book, restructured everything. So it worked for both audiences at once. And the shift for me there was it doesn't matter what my intention is, it matters how it's received.

Right.

And I think that's something we need in life in general. And as an author, once you put something out there, it's out of your hands. What you intended it to mean, who you intended to read it, that doesn't matter. And and so having people read it and tell me how they felt and how it affected them, I'm like, I need to make sure that I have a duty of care with these words and with this book that it actually is going to work for this audience.

Whether I think it's for them to read or not, they are going to read it. So it needs to be it needs to work for them. And seeing writing as not about me, but about that can be both in who has input and in who, it serves, was really important for me.

Yeah, that's really insightful because so often we have the image of a writer and I have a friend, one of the CQ Fellows, who is escaping to the Scottish Islands on a regular basis to help herself write a book. And I mean, I'm sure in between the escape periods of writing, she's doing that, you know, intent and impact and checking in with people.

But my image is that that's your ideal writer, someone who can get away from it all and just write. Whereas you were actually saying that it was the experiences of being with others and having others interact with your work that helped you to mould and shape it into something that was so much better.

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, the sitting alone with my laptop for hours and hours on end was a huge part of the book too. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's definitely a big part of it. But if that was it, if what I created in that space of time was what was published, would not have had the successes it’s had for sure. Would not have had the impact it's had. The book that is on the shelf is a completely different book because I listened to my editor, editors, mt proof-readers and all the people who are involved in it, because I listened to what they had to say, because I listened to different friends

and mentors who gave me advice, because I listened to my beta readers, because I said, Look, this isn't just about me and what I want to put out to the world. I want to create something that actually meets the needs of a group of people. And I don't know everything. I need to lean on everyone else's perspectives. I cannot see the whole thing on my own.

It's too big for me to see everything. I've got to get a viewpoint that is higher and wider and I can't get that on my own. I need other people's perspectives to see the whole thing.

So we've been speaking a couple of times with people about getting on the balcony so that we can see ourselves operating in a certain way and how that's coming across. And so having that moment where we can see ourselves from from a distance. And so you're saying that all that other people helped you get that balcony view?

Yeah, Well, I often think of it as like if you're trying to see a globe, you can't see it on your own. You need to have people around to tell you what's on the other side. And if I want a book that is well rounded, that is complete, I need other people to see the pieces I can't see on my own.

My perspective is limited. Yeah, and I think that's the biggest lesson I've learned from my cross-cultural living. Starting all the way back from that first really big shift was that other people see things I don't, and I can choose to either listen and learn or I can stay in my narrow perspective, and I chose to expand my horizons.

Well, I think that is brilliant and I think we can thank you for that. And leave it there because there's no better ending than that. But I would love to know how I can how I can point people in your direction. So you have a website, I'll put that in the show notes. You're on LinkedIn, you regularly go to international schools and speak to parents, etc. so anybody can contact you through your website or through LinkedIn, is that correct?

That's correct. Also on like Instagram.

Oh Instagram! Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, I may need to find that and get that one as well. Yeah. Fantastic. And when does the what was it.

Thongs or flip flops? Thongs or flip flops. Yeah, that should be out in the next two months. But we're just we're excited to get the cover design reveal very soon.

That’s brilliant. And can I just say, you know, as a Kiwi, I want to put in jandals as well.

Well, someone needs to write the Kiwi version of it. That’s honestly, one of the things I hope for with the thongs or flip flops is because this is specifically about the Australian TCK experience, I really want to encourage and I've already started encouraging some people that we need a version of this for all of these different countries and cultures because it is different.

The experience of an Australian TCK is different than that of a Kiwi TCK, is different than that of a Chinese TCK and there are things I can't write about that experience. But I can write about the Australian experience, so I've done that with it. With a co-author, with Kath Williams, we've collaborated on this book and it's been a great experience.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your insights here, Tanya.

You are so welcome. It's been great fun talking with you, as always.

Thank you very much. So we'd love you to push the follow button on your app so that you can get next week's episode. And we'll welcome you back then to listen again to The Shift.