In our first episode of 2024, Nikki de Vet is joined by Torchbox CEO, James Leavesley to explore their unique shift towards an employee ownership model. James shares his journey to becoming CEO and the thoughtful approach Torchbox took to avoid a traditional corporate buy-out, instead creating an environment where employees have a stake in the game.

Together they thoughtfully uncover the complexities involved in nurturing a company's culture during transformation. Get an inside look at what it takes to strategically shift your purpose, vision and values; and unlock the power of an engaged team.

Learn more about Within People and the work we do here.

Learn more about Torchbox here.

Nikki de Vet: Ready and raring.

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All right, let's do this.

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Hello everyone.

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Welcome to another episode of

re imagining work from within.

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My name is Nikki and I'm a partner at

within based in our UK and Europe market.

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And today I have the pleasure

to be speaking with James

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Leavesley, CEO of Torchbox.

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Torchbox has been a client of ours , and

I'm really excited to celebrate our work

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together through this James, hello.

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Hello, Nicky.

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Nice to see you again.

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Nice to see you too.

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How are you doing?

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James Leavesley: Good.

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Just before off air, we were just

talking about the run up to Christmas.

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And getting all our agency Christmas

cards in line and campaigns, so, yeah.

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Busy as ever.

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Busy

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Nikki de Vet: as ever.

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Yeah.

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And I heard a little fun thing around

you're creating a give or something

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with everybody looking at the camera.

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Something around your values.

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That sounds really

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James Leavesley: fun.

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Yeah, well, definitely, yeah.

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A lot of what we're doing at the

moment is with, with our values.

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So yeah, we've got a values gift that we

can share, which we've got ready to share

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on LinkedIn with our social platforms.

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All slightly crazy crazily waving, but it

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Nikki de Vet: does the job.

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I love it.

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I'm looking forward to seeing it and

seeing what inspiration we can draw from

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that , but maybe just tell us a little

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bit about yourself and about

Torchbox just to get us going.

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James Leavesley: Yeah, sure.

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So I'm James, you said CEO at Torchbox.

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I started my career sort of on the

client account side and then spent

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about 12 years in London agencies.

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Working in sort of big comms groups

like WPP and sort of big tech arms

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like NTT and helping them integrate.

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I started my life at a smaller agency

and helping them integrate that

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into the whole, the sort of wider

ecosystem that you tend to find at

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these sort of wider comms networks.

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And then about five years

ago, I started at Torchbox.

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As Ops Director, and then in that five

years, I sort of moved up to CEO and

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just a bit of background on Torchbox.

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So Torchbox is an agency that designs

and builds and markets digital

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products for not for profit sector.

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And we'll move on to this

later, but we're here because we

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empower positive change makers.

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Nice!

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And And I joined when we were

going about to go through what's

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called employee ownership.

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So we became an employee owned trust.

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So I started, I suppose, my life at

Torchbox to try and help them because

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I'd got a good background in how agencies

work in sort of moving them into that,

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into that field of employee ownership,

which is quite different from the sort of

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media network that I'd been used to, but

still there's some interesting sort of.

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bits there.

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Nikki de Vet: Yeah.

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So maybe tell us a little

bit about that difference.

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How is that different?

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Because I think we're coming across more

and more organizations that are going that

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direction in terms of employee ownership.

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Like you're one of a few of our clients

that have been through that process.

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Tell us a little bit more.

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James Leavesley: Yeah, so

I'll start from the beginning.

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So, when I started at Torchbox,

well, I started at Torchbox because

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slightly, randomly, my wife's running

club, one of the members worked at

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Torchbox, and I was a Christmas dude,

and uh, they'd met, you know, we were

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talking about what I did, and I'd

said that I'd been working in London.

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And they've said, Oh, you know,

they worked at Torchbox, this

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great agency, regional agency.

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And what I, what I was interested in

was that they were sort of getting to

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that level sort of 60 plus employees,

which is tends to be when agencies

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start to think about what's their

next step and what's their future.

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So I was sort of interested in

thinking on maybe they're looking to.

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You know, to sell out or earn out to

a bigger network or what would happen.

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So I met with Tom and Olly because at

the time they were looking for an ops

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director and was pleasantly surprised

to hear that they were, that they were

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looking to go down a different route.

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They hadn't started the process at

that point, but they sort of said,

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what we want to do is rather than.

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become part of a much bigger group, we

would become an employee owned trust.

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And with that, I suppose there's

quite a lot of differences.

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So if you become part of a group,

what normally happens is that they're

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after a very small subset of you.

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Like you work with a couple of clients

that they really want to work with, or

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they have a particular technology or

creative flair that you can go after.

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And then they wrap their

hands around the rest of it.

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So if you're not very good at

finance or HR or whatever, then

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they sort of deal with that things.

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And it means that the sort of the creative

part can blossom, but then the media

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network can take over the rest of it.

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Whereas I suppose with an employee

owned trust, what the benefit

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of that is, it sort of keeps the

culture of the agency together.

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But with that, you then have to

sort of build up all parts of

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the business rather than just.

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It's focusing on the one

thing that you might be very

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Nikki de Vet: good at.

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Yeah, and it's super interesting to hear

that, like, for those of you listening,

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Tom and Olly are the founders of Torchbox.

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And they've been huge, huge champions

of this, hey, like they've been

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massively on board with this change.

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And I, when I think about what

Torchbox is all about and where like

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from the beginnings of when someone

only started this organization which

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you can share a bit more about.

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But then.

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Employee ownership really suits that

very nicely if you think about it

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rather than selling out to a bigger

group or cashing out in any other way.

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I feel like like it's really part

of of who you are and it's a natural

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fit for you to have gone down that

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James Leavesley: route.

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Yeah, definitely.

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You know, the fact that particularly

because we work for not for profits,

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we didn't want to suddenly be

working for banks or oil companies.

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So keeping that culture, and

our people didn't want that.

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And, you know, obviously, Olly and Tom

had been working at the and building up

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Torchworks at the time for about 18 years.

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So they were really indebted,

and I think all founders are.

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And I think the interesting thing is

when you start to talk to people about

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employee ownership, the initial thought

is that you might lose out commercially,

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but actually You know, there's still a

good earn out route for the founders.

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They, you know, they

still do well out of it.

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So there's this sort

of pros on both sides.

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So I think it's, you

know, everyone's a winner.

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Nikki de Vet: Everyone's a winner.

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Yeah.

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And I, I love that because throughout

the work together, and we'll come

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to that in the, in a moment, but

the, the way you are owned by

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your employees has been such a big.

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Driver throughout all the, all the work

that we've done together and always like

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bringing in that question, you know, what

does this mean for employee ownership

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or how might employee ownership change

this, which was a very, , inspiring

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way of, doing our work together.

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I've found.

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Yeah, you came to us at the around

the beginning of last year,

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, what inspired you to , go and look

for an agency like ourselves to

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do a bit of work on your culture,

what was the kind of problem that

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you were looking to solve there?

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James Leavesley: Okay, I think

well, just to give the listeners,

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a bit of a more background to

the Employee Ownership Trust.

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The way that it works is you set a

date at the start and you say, right,

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okay, we are, we want to essentially

the company's put into trust.

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So it's not owned by its employees.

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They don't have shares individually.

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It's put into a trust for its employees.

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And then what we do over a number

of years is we, bought back the

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company from the founders and the

directors through the profits that

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we made out of Torchbox as an agency.

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So that tends to take, we were

hoping to do it in five years.

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We did pretty well and did it

in three, which is fantastic.

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It meant that we moved forward.

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And then at that, there's a point where

you hit what's called financial freedom,

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which is essentially where you pay,

you've paid off all your debts to your.

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Original directors and you're then in

a position where any new profit you

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make you can either, you know, put it

back into the company to invest either

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in training or buying another company,

or you can give it out in a profit

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share or essentially do whatever you

want to do with it, which is fantastic.

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So we got to that point

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So just over a year ago.

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And it is a, you know, a,

a moment of excellence.

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We had a big festival in, we, one of

our offices is, is in the countryside,

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in Oxfordshire . So we have like,

lamb with deer and you know, so in

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the summer it's a, you know, in the

winter now it's not quite so good.

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So we had all 20 or so

what we have work time.

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to the festival, and it was a

really great moment when everyone

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really felt part of this sort of

ownership and becoming co owners.

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I suppose what happens then, it's

a bit like, I don't know, winning

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the premiership or the Super Bowl or

whatever, you sort of hit that goal.

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Nikki de Vet: Yeah, you called

it Freedom Day, I believe, hey?

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That moment of celebrations.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And then

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James Leavesley: you hit that, and I

suppose you feel like, oh, what's next?

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And I think that's where we, you know,

why we, we called on Within People,

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because we were already a really good

company, you know, it wasn't like we were

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turning a bad company into a good company.

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We wanted to make a good

company really excellent.

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And I think we got to that point

where we felt we were, purpose led.

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But maybe as we've grown, maybe that

wasn't so obvious to everyone we now got,

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you know, we had Academy students where

we're bringing in sort of six people from

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different backgrounds every year that

obviously had a different understanding.

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We've grown to over 130 people and , you

know, at the start we used to do.

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Just UK charities and then we moved

to the public sector and then, you

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know, 30, 40 percent of our revenue

comes from the US and we moved

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into higher education and Wagtail,

our open source content management

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system, you know, sort of taken off.

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So there's all these

different facets of us.

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And I felt like.

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That we were at that point where,

what we used to say is digital for

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good, which is still holds true.

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That meaning was different for

different people within Torchbox.

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And you could ask 10 different people

in Torchbox and they'd all give you a

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slightly different answer to what that is.

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Which, it's still great, but we

wanted to make sure we were really

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want to hone that and think about what

does that actually mean to people?

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And can we be sure that now we've hit

this sort of Freeman freedom moment?

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How do we make sure that everyone's

still behind what we want to do

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and where we want to move forward?

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Because, , there's a big cultural

change in a company that's got, one

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or two founders that are pushing the

way forward and actually want to bring

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out people from within and making

sure that they understand where we're

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going and how to connect with us.

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Nikki de Vet: Yeah, absolutely.

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And really helping.

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The employees feel that

sense of ownership, right?

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Because that is that

kind of cultural change.

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Yeah.

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When we started speaking, it

was interesting because there

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was a bit of complexity at hand.

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I think, you had grown quite significantly

you're still growing significantly.

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And there's like different

propositions that sit under,

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under the name Torchbox, right?

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There's different strands of products

and services that you offer to the world.

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And it was like, okay, now.

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Knowing that we have the different

offerings in our business, knowing

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that we've become employee owned and

we've hit that freedom moment knowing

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that we've had, employees that have

been here with us for a long time,

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but also there's people joined recently

and we are continuing to grow and

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we're adding more people in the mix.

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How do we glue that all together

and create that understanding

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James Leavesley: for everyone.

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And I think we're sort of still finding

our way in that a little bit because , in

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terms of leadership of Torchbox, there's

sort of a democratic side of it, but

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there's also wanting to make sure we're

still making quick decisions about things.

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So, you know, that's, that part is still

quite new to us and we wanted to have that

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sort of framework so that as we broaden

out our leadership teams across, as you

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say, these different propositions, which

sit within Torchbox, they had a filter.

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Being able to say, okay, this is

how we will take things forward.

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These are the ideas that we'll take

forward because it matches our vision

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and our values and those types of things.

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So I think that's why and you know,

like all good agencies they all

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go through the point of thinking,

oh, we can do it ourselves.

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We can run a good one.

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She'll get our uh, post-its out, our

felt tips and think, think, think

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for a bit about how to do this.

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I think, but really we needed someone

that was a specialist that you had

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worked with at the different companies.

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We talked to a few different

companies like yourselves, but they

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weren't probably quite so culture

focused, which I think was one of the

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differentiators for within people.

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And it just felt like we didn't,

we couldn't do this in, it was such

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a momentous change in Torchbox.

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Couldn't do it on our own.

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You know, if it had been just a tweak

then that would have been different.

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But I think because of we were changing

the structure of Torchbox, it felt like

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it was the right time to To look to look

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Nikki de Vet: wider.

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Yeah Thank you for for sharing

that and we're super excited

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that you chose to work with us.

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In terms of the work, we then obviously

went on a bit of a journey to kind of

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really uncover some of these pieces

that already exist in your culture.

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And like you said, it was not

about, , changing, something that

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was bad or, needed an overhaul.

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It was really like, how do we articulate

, what already lives in our organization?

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How do we hone it as.

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Using your words around this like we

we know we're purposeful, but how do we

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hold it in such a way how to articulate

it in such a way that more and more

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people can can feel inspired by that and

they see and connect meaning into it.

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So I remember that one of the first

things that we did was coming together

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to not just start with your purpose,

but actually we started with your vision

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for the future and really look at, Hey,

like Torchbox in three to four years

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time, , what might that look like?

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How was that experience for you?

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Like what, if you think back now,

because this is over, over six months

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ago now, like what, what is still there

for you thinking about that experience?

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James Leavesley: I suppose the first

thing is, how was it for you, Niki?

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It's like, we would always have

new people that we'd sort of

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suggest, oh, couldn't we have these?

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Because I think that was the

thing, particularly in that point,

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it was like we wanted to try and

get the right group of people.

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We wanted to sort of have the right group

of people that wasn't too wide, but we

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wanted to encompass everyone's views.

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That, that was something that I remember

that I think We took some time to decide

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on that right group was the first thing.

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The second one was, you know, how much

we were looking back in the past to

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be points of reference for the future.

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And that sort of, although, , as we said,

Torchbox is changing and always will do.

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And, , looking back at the core of , why

we began was, I think was a really

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important point for setting that vision.

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And then also thinking about.

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We want to make sure that we set a vision

that all the different parts of Torchbox

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could get behind rather than just,

, setting a small part that, , we just need

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to make sure it encompasses all and gave

people enough space within those separate

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propositions that they could then set up

their own strategic objectives that would

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lend ladder up to that, wider vision.

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And, I suppose stepping out of our

day to day sometimes difficult on that.

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And particularly having the right mix of

people across those different propositions

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and making sure that we didn't have

too many louder voices in one part.

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That so yeah, but what I remember is that

actually I was more worried about that

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than I needed to be when we had that day.

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It felt like people quite quickly

stepped out of what they wanted to

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do for their proposition and more

into what does it mean to Torchbox.

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And I think once, you know, something

that we've, we've sort of seen throughout

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our EOT journey is that people do

actually become owners quite quickly

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, if they're focused on, on a message

and what we want to try and achieve.

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And I think when we did that with

the vision, people quickly sort

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of stepped about thinking about.

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digital marketing or human centered

design, they thought about what does

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Torchbox want, where does Torchbox

want to go, where do we want to

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take not for profits in the future.

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So I think that was, that was hopefully,

but I know Nikki, you, we definitely

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gave you some headaches along the

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Nikki de Vet: way.

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Well, you gave some challenges because

I think that, and the reason for

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that is that you have people that

truly care about your organization.

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And I think that if you ask me what

stood out to me, it's, it's that,

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like, the genuine care , for people,

, for your organization and where it's

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going , and their job within it, right.

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And everybody , wants to do like

great work and they really see

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Torchbox as an organization to

be able to do meaningful work.

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And that to me, it was really inspiring.

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And , I hope that we managed , for

people to really have that environment

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where they could step out of their day

to day and connect to Torchbox as a

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whole, rather than stay maybe in their

individual teams or their individual

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propositions, I think what you've come

up with ultimately definitely speaks

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to Torchbox as the organization.

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And I know , you've been going through

the process of like, what does this

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mean for different strategies for

different strands of the business?

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And I'm, I'm really hoping that.

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The different propositions find it

useful to work with what we've created

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at the Torchbox level to, to translate

it into what it might mean for, for their

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specific teams and , their specific work.

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But I think the contribution was , very

rich from many different people around

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the organization, I I know there was

a bit of nervousness around how many

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people should we bring together?

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How big can the group be?

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But , it actually worked really well.

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And everyone that contributed

or that was there, they

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brought something to the table.

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And I think because of that , you have

the output that you have, in your vision.

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And I'm hoping that that is

felt now you're trying to get

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it into the strategic place.

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James Leavesley: Yeah, definitely.

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I think that, you know, we've been

doing a lot of work on our strategic

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objectives for each of the propositions

and that's, you know, they're laddering

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those up to, you know, one of the

vision pillars and how that works with

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the values and those types of things.

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So I think that's really working well.

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And it's a really good filter for them

to think about what are the things that

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we should focus on rather than the others.

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If they are or aren't going to help

go sort of move towards our vision.

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Yeah,

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Nikki de Vet: absolutely.

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And I just, I just something else like

that I'm, I'm just thinking of now is

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something that we try to like balance out.

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I felt around, , obviously you work

with charities, not for profits,

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like the, for good side, balancing

that with actually, Hey, we're

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also, we are a commercial business.

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And how do we hold both

of those things, right?

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How can they coexist alongside each other?

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And I thought there was really

proper debate in the room.

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I felt at times like making sure

that the pendulum wouldn't swing one

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way too much, one way or the other.

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What do you remember from,

from those conversations?

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Because I've, yeah.

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James Leavesley: It's a difficult one

and that's always been a strand that

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sort of ran throughout the Torchbox.

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, one of the reasons why Torchbox sort

of brought me along is because to go

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through employee ownership, you have

to be making good profits because

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you've got to pay those debts back.

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So, , one of those first challenges in

that first year was to increase that

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slightly so that we could pay that back.

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And I think that, the thing

that is always strong within

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me is that I feel like what's

important to clients is, is value.

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It's not necessarily doing

things at a cut price.

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It's about bringing value along

and particularly in a service led

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industry and, and also even more.

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So it's an even easier story in a

way for an employee owned company

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that's gone through financial freedom

is, you know, any money that we

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make, we give back to our team.

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So it's beneficial to everyone

that we get that right because

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we want to get the right people.

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We want to get the best people.

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And, , I think that especially when

you're working with large not for profits.

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They need as good talent as any company

and have the best ideas that come along.

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And the only way we can do that, you

know, it is still a world, people are

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still going to pay their mortgages,

they're still going to do, other things.

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You've got to have the right people.

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And, and so us being a successful

commercial business helps everyone

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and means that we are actually

in the long run a more valuable

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partner to ourclients Yeah,

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Nikki de Vet: absolutely.

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And I think that was a message , that

really landed for people in the room.

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Like people that have might

previously been more on the like,

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Hey, but like, we're all about.

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Helping not for profits.

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Why do we have such commercial

drivers in, in our own business?

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I think they really understood the value

of that because you and Olly and Tom

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were able to speak that up meaningfully

and people also understanding that

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employee ownership wouldn't have

been here if it wasn't for that.

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James Leavesley: The one thing

that I think we also managed

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to focus around is this sort of

growth angle and how much you need.

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So I think what we did realize is

that people didn't necessarily want

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us to grow a million miles an hour.

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So, you know, you see product companies

going a hundred, 200 percent in a year.

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And , I think everyone definitely

valued being a successful company, we

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obviously all understand that you need

to have some growth because that helps.

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with people's own, careers and making

sure that we can move into different

402

areas, but we don't want growth for

growth sake, which means that then it

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affects the culture of Torchbox, affects

people, you know, you're bringing in

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people in new and it's like, Oh, I've got

to train another hundred people today.

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So I think that it did

make us think about.

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What is the right level of growth

and let's make sure that we don't go

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too fast and, and, and risk the sort

of other side of Torchbox, which is

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making it so successful over the years.

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Nikki de Vet: Yeah, absolutely.

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And I remember I was having

conversations to align around what

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does growth actually mean here, right?

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And how can it be purposeful?

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So how can we look at growth as not just

being the numbers that, that need to be

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driven, but also around how do we keep.

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Growing and building on our culture

to be able to, serve our clients

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and have the best impact possible.

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And when you start to look at all these

things holistically when, when it becomes

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a rich picture, rather than just like

growth for growth sake, which was what

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your people were challenging very much.

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So

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James Leavesley: yeah.

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And my background is much

more about, you know, bing and,

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you know, bigger percentages.

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And so moving away from that and

realizing, oh, maybe that's not the

425

right thing, you know, was a, was a

bit of a learning thing for me as well.

426

Okay.

427

Nikki de Vet: That is really interesting.

428

Like, and how is that feeling now?

429

Because I, I recognize

that like we, we have.

430

Build probably our careers in London,

it's like, it's the more, it's the

431

bigger, it's the better, right?

432

That's what we're sort of used to.

433

And like with this different approach,

we're sort of kicking against that.

434

So yeah.

435

, how has that been for you?

436

How is that sitting with you now?

437

James Leavesley: Yeah, I think like it's

something that I've, , been aware of for

438

quite a few years, but I definitely think

recently it's sort of, it's just focused

439

my mind about, having that balance.

440

across the company and not being

always focused on, you know,

441

people don't just want growth.

442

They also want other things.

443

And actually for me personally as

well, that's much, it's much of a

444

nicer existence where, you're thinking

about the other elements rather

445

than just, will this mean that we

grow by 5 percent more than we did?

446

The year before sort of thing.

447

So obviously, as we said, it's the

commercial aspects are really important.

448

And obviously we knew about the other

ones, but it's , those marginal gains

449

on all sides, you're trying to make all

the time and making sure you balance

450

those marginal gains rather than just

going for one thing over the other.

451

Yeah.

452

Nikki de Vet: Great.

453

Thank you for, for sharing

a bit more around that.

454

Okay.

455

So we talked about your vision.

456

We talked about a little bit around

how that how the different, your

457

different propositions are finding

themselves in, in that through their

458

own strategic goal setting and KPIs.

459

Then we looked at purpose and we looked

at values and for purpose, I really

460

remember Ollie, championing this as

being one of the founders, , you know.

461

, why we exist in the world is extremely

important to all of you, but as a

462

founder, there's something in there, he

started the business at some point for

463

a reason, but then we obviously were

looking to hone it and evolve it to,

464

, articulate it in such a way that , people.

465

In the business now, but also

other people joining you can

466

find themselves in that purpose.

467

And you mentioned this earlier

already, , so where did we land

468

on as your purpose statement?

469

James Leavesley: Empowering

positive changemakers.

470

Yeah, I thought that was really good.

471

I think, , one of the things I was

nervous about with both the values

472

Is, is they were all pretty good,

you know sort of our why, which was

473

really digital for good was quite a

nice saying, especially now that tech

474

for good has become more popularized.

475

And our values were also pretty strong.

476

So I think that for me, I was

nervous about, are we actually

477

going to get better than that?

478

And I think one of the things

that we realized was that although

479

digital for good was good.

480

Yeah.

481

It wasn't necessarily quite the

right for context for , for our wider

482

proposition, propositions, I should say.

483

And again, our values are pretty

good, but they didn't have the sort

484

of things underneath that that could

help people ladder up to those.

485

So I think now the bits that

where we've really benefited.

486

With the new, the new updates, but

again, it wasn't about a massive change.

487

It was just making sure that they

were, slightly more tweaked and

488

honed to what Torchbox is now.

489

And because one of the big things that's

changed in Torchbox is that we used to be.

490

You know, people just in the UK and

now we're global, , we're across, I

491

don't know, 14 different countries.

492

We've got people working

on different time zones.

493

We've got clients in different areas.

494

And, , like any business post COVID.

495

The world's changed and everyone's

working remotely and it's , so much

496

harder to connect with our people.

497

And , because we're a creative

service agency, people work best

498

when they know each other and they.

499

feel that sort of connection.

500

And I feel like , on the value side,

making sure that we were still strong

501

within that and didn't become too tame and

generic is really important for a company.

502

And, , , I would say that it's important

for us in particular, but I think,

503

really it's important for everyone that

they have something that they stand

504

by and some values that they think

that these are really important to us.

505

Nikki de Vet: Yeah, absolutely.

506

And I, yeah, I agree.

507

Your values were already really

speaking to how you all work

508

together, what is important to you

how you connect with one another.

509

I think we just evolved them a little

bit to really, you know, make them.

510

Be more behavioral, I say, I would say

like, and make them more actionable.

511

So you really can sort of start to think

like, okay, if our vision, which we

512

landed on, we're setting a new standard

for high impact responsible business.

513

If our vision is all about that, like

kind of what behaviors do need to be in

514

our values to really help drive that.

515

Forward.

516

And it was a really fun exercise

actually to take what you already

517

had, which was great and kind of

go, Hey, how do we streamline that?

518

How do we tweak that?

519

How do we sharpen it up really?

520

So it becomes super clear for people

what is expected when it comes to

521

our values and so that they can

really step into their behaviors.

522

And I think, , on the whole,

I think we saw around.

523

that we see around 45, 50 people as part

of this entire kind of process, right?

524

And a lot of people had input

into the values and people

525

were super passionate about it.

526

So it's nice to see that it's,

yeah, it's a, it was an evolution.

527

It wasn't a reinventing of the wheel by

any stretch of imagination, I don't think.

528

Yeah.

529

James Leavesley: And I think in particular

this is the process was just as important

530

as destination and getting people involved

in that, because we're obviously going

531

through this ownership journey as everyone

becoming co owners is then feeling part of

532

that, particularly on the value section,

that process of them feeling engaged

533

and getting engaged and putting their

thoughts forward and making sure that

534

now they can feel like they're something

that they've developed is really helped.

535

on the ownership journey, as

well as, , the actual outcome.

536

So that, that part and getting, you

know, as you said, over 50 people

537

involved in that was obviously

difficult for, for you, Nikki.

538

And there was lots of workshops and

we went through lots of different

539

iterations, but, you know, the

outcome I thought was fantastic.

540

It was almost towards the end where

it was right at the end where it

541

changed from people were still a bit

like, Oh, I quite like the old values.

542

And then right at the end, in the last

couple of sessions, they really changed

543

to thinking, Oh no, these are really good.

544

These new ones.

545

And from that.

546

We've done, we've done lots more

work on our onboarding process and

547

building them into that and I think

that's, you know, really helped.

548

Yeah,

549

Nikki de Vet: that is

really great to hear.

550

And like, we love to work like this.

551

, I feel the work is all the richer,

, if you allow more voices in the

552

process, and especially when you

work with values, that's the thing.

553

Perfect opportunity to

really hear from people.

554

And yes, I remember like,

it was like, okay, yeah, the

555

old fellows are pretty good.

556

I think when we started to unpack

how people might use them in the

557

business and how we embed them in

places like onboarding in places,

558

like how we might give each other

feedback, people started to understand.

559

That having the added clarity

that we're putting in there was

560

going to be helpful for them.

561

. for those of you listening James, tell

us a little bit about your values.

562

James Leavesley: I so we've got four

values spread the joy raise the bar,

563

lead the change, and explore the unknown.

564

And I think, one of the things

about those four values is I I

565

don't feel like they're generic.

566

I really feel like, you know,

I can really feel them and.

567

We talked earlier about people

wearing the t shirts and everyone.

568

So we've, we've obviously designed

t shirts and sent them out to our

569

new starters and our employees.

570

They all got to choose which

one they felt most close to.

571

And there's lots of different

people, we thought, oh, would

572

they all go for one or the other?

573

But actually, we've got a really

good cross subsection of them.

574

And, you know, it really feels like when

people join They get behind those values.

575

You know, I, I do a a sort of onboarding

session where we talk about the

576

overall vision, purpose and values,

and particularly with our academy team

577

who, you know, they're coming into

some of them have obviously worked

578

before, but they're coming into a very

new sector in digital they might have

579

some background, but you know, them

coming along and it's a really easy

580

way to connect with them straight away.

581

And they can really feel that come

through rather than me just talk about,

582

you know, more business focused stuff.

583

So it's really, it's really

helped help with that.

584

Yeah.

585

Nikki de Vet: And I love how you Took

it like as an opportunity when you

586

were working towards introducing them

into the business, the new values and

587

the vision and the purpose, right?

588

Like as an opportunity to you know,

have something fun around it and do

589

something meaningful, like, and, and

like ask people what resonated most with

590

them and get them to pick a t shirt.

591

Like, I remember when you guys

shared that idea with us and the

592

kind of, website through which they

could order and the design around it.

593

And I just love how your

team, , as soon as it was known

594

that these were signed off and.

595

They just ran with it.

596

And I think that's just amazing

when people get so excited, you

597

know, to just then take it to the

next level which is really fun.

598

James Leavesley: We actually had

so, so we, we'd said originally we'd

599

do one t shirt and then everyone

was like, can we buy a second?

600

So we had loads of people

asking for a second.

601

So we actually gave a second one

away and I'm sure I think everyone's.

602

They're really hankering after them.

603

So yeah,

604

Nikki de Vet: good.

605

It will be interesting to see like

in a year's time, which one has been

606

most ordered or what's the across the

board or when new joiners join, which

607

one do they gravitate towards, you

know, like what's the sentiment there.

608

You spoke, you, you touched on

onboarding, like it's one place

609

where you're, you're looking to

bring the values to life and really

610

give a great . introduction to them?

611

What are the areas are you looking

to embed the values or purpose and

612

vision, but how are you kind of, you

know, weaving it through the business?

613

James Leavesley: So I think if we start

with values in particular in our review

614

periods, we always have had part of

that, but we're definitely embedding

615

that more within our review periods

to make sure that when we're thinking

616

about people hitting their objectives,

but are they also embodying our values?

617

And also, we have a good news channel

where when things happen, we talk about

618

our, what's, what's gone well, whether

that's personal or business or great work.

619

And, what we found is lots

of people are sort of linking

620

that to, to values as well.

621

And we've got our little,

some little value emojis that

622

everyone sort of pins to those.

623

And it's really good to see

that sort of coming through.

624

And that's sort of like natural

way of, because we can.

625

We can try and put these different ideas

within processes, but actually seeing

626

that sort of naturally come through.

627

From the team, I think

is even more powerful.

628

So the fact they sort of run with those.

629

But yeah, so, we've got it quite embedded

in, in the review process onboarding.

630

And then I suppose the vision

and the purpose, particularly

631

when we're talking about.

632

either strategic objectives or anything

new that we want to do within Torchbox.

633

So as an example we're looking at some

changes to our content management system,

634

Wagtail and bringing in some AI features.

635

And again, you know, we're focusing

that towards explore the unknown.

636

And it means that we're not just

thinking about it from a How can we

637

bring cool new tech into Wagtail, but

also how can we train people in those

638

different ways and bring that together.

639

So we sort of try and link

those through all the time.

640

And it's just, it's just great

for our leadership teams to sort

641

of hold on to if they, if they need

something to think about what is the

642

best idea that they can take forward.

643

Nikki de Vet: Yeah, that's a great way

like to actually just work with them

644

right in, in the more in the day to day.

645

Yeah, that sounds, that

sounds really great.

646

Just building on your last comment

around leadership and how , they can

647

hold on to them, you know, like in

terms of how they might lead their team.

648

What do you see is required in,

in leadership at Torchbox or, in

649

general, what needs to shift?

650

Because I can imagine now you have,

you want to, you want to bring

651

obviously purpose, vision and values

to the fore in the way you do things.

652

But also in terms of employee ownership,

what kind of changes have you noticed or

653

what changes do you feel are required to

really make the most of all this work?

654

James Leavesley: Yeah, I think

the big change when you become an

655

employee owned is the idea of, moving

from founder led to employee led.

656

And I think that, any bigger

business goes through that because.

657

As a company ages the fans

aren't necessarily quite

658

as connected to the work.

659

And as you get into different areas,

you can't have one or two people,

660

but I suppose in an employee owned

business that happens a lot quicker.

661

So, we might have been able to

get to two, three hundred people

662

before that became a problem.

663

But when you're employee owned, you're

not going to get that vision from,

664

a different network, it has to come

within Torchbox and, as a CEO as

665

Torchbox, I'm more of a guardian of

how Torchbox thrives and moves forward.

666

So we need to make sure that, people

are coming through with the right ideas.

667

So I think that's the biggest

change that we've made.

668

Recently is really trying to

think about how, succession is

669

the really key, important part

within Torchbox, what happens.

670

If we bring in a new proposition,

who's going to lead that?

671

How are we going to make sure we're

getting the right ideas through?

672

And in digital in particular, right

now particularly, it's even more

673

important that we're getting those

ideas sort of filtered through.

674

And it means that the leadership, you

need a situational leadership, I

675

suppose, there's lots of different

types of leadership that's needed

676

in that and we have different

ways of thinking about things.

677

So at a trust level, we are quite

democratic, we need to make

678

sure that we're thinking about.

679

All our people and what's good about

the the purpose, vision of values.

680

It gives something for them to really say

is because the board, so it's Tom Ollie

681

and I still run the company day to day.

682

So we make the decisions, but we

meet quarterly with our trust,

683

which is an employee led trust.

684

So there's.

685

Five people in that trust and they

have to sort of say, are we running

686

Torchbox for the good of our people?

687

And that purpose, vision, and values

is a really good way of good filter for

688

saying, yes, they are, or no, they're not.

689

So I suppose that that's part of we

also have a an advisory board, advisory

690

council which is because one of the

things that I suppose you're struggling

691

with within an employee ownership in

a, in a fast moving sector is that you

692

want to bring some sort of democracy

in, but you still need to move fast.

693

You can't not make changes.

694

So we've brought those, we've brought

in this advisory council to be a way

695

of bringing lots of different people's

ideas with into certain, certain areas.

696

And I suppose one good example of

where we've been more democratic in

697

our thinking is back in um, COVID.

698

In I don't know whether everyone or

your listeners will be aware of this,

699

but in the, in the UK we had, there

was this thing called a furlough

700

scheme where when companies weren't

doing so well we could furlough people

701

and then we'd get money from the

government to pay for that, that time.

702

And we, like many other companies use that

scheme because, you know, we weren't sure

703

what was going to happen and how long.

704

COVID was going to last, but when we

came to the end of it, when we came

705

to the end of that financial year,

we'd actually done still pretty well.

706

So we were thinking about,

Oh, maybe we should pay back

707

our money to the government.

708

Which was, a small amount of money.

709

, it was.

710

tens of thousands of pounds

over, over that period of time.

711

And we, that was an example of where we

actually went out and asked our people,

712

right, what do you think we should do?

713

We could either keep this and that

could mean that your profit share is

714

slightly bigger for this year, or we

could give it back to the government

715

because we feel like there's people that

716

.

Might use this in a better way, or we, we're fortunate

717

in that things have gone well.

718

So that's where we would go out to

a wider group of people and say,

719

is this the right thing to do?

720

Because that is where ownership,

you know, comes, but then on a day

721

to day piece where we were thinking

about investing in the business.

722

That might be a small subset of

people that are bringing that through.

723

We still need to be directional in how

we, you know, drive the business forward.

724

We're not going to expect other

people to think of X, Y, Z.

725

So I think that's, that's how there's

different types of structures that we need

726

to use across a employee owned company.

727

Nikki de Vet: Yeah.

728

It's fine.

729

I think it's finding that

right balance, right?

730

How much autonomy and how much

decision making are you going to give

731

to your people versus like, what are

the things that actually, as the.

732

You know, the board of the organization,

we still need to, I really hear an

733

accountability piece in there, which I

love what you sort of highlighted, right?

734

Like that your employee ownership, like

your EOT, your trust, you know, that you

735

meet with on a regular basis, that they're

kind of going, Hey, how are things going?

736

These guys actually

running this organization.

737

Is it in line, with our purpose?

738

Is it in line with our values?

739

There is, there is an

accountability piece there, right?

740

There is a group of people here

that can hold you to account to

741

the, the way you run the business,

which is really interesting, right?

742

Because you don't have that in, in,

in each organization in that way.

743

, yeah, the accountability comes from.

744

Your manager or from a leadership

team, but like having that kind

745

of explicit two way accountability

is really quite interesting.

746

Yeah.

747

James Leavesley: And, you know, like

any agency, there's always times when

748

we're very busy and not quite so busy.

749

And, one of the things that we're

always very focused on, and I think that

750

accountability brings is making sure

that we balance that sort of work life

751

balance and we don't overwork people.

752

And the reality is in the long term,

that makes Torchbox better because

753

we bring in better people because

we've got a better culture, we get

754

better glass reviews or whatever.

755

But in the short term, that can be quite a

difficult thing when we're saying, should

756

we go ahead with this opportunity or not?

757

And I think that having that overarching

trust, is something that we'll think,

758

Oh, well, is that the right thing to do?

759

Maybe it's not because if we do that, then

we will be working out people too hard.

760

And that will affect if people

think that we're running the

761

company for the best of everyone.

762

Nikki de Vet: Yeah.

763

Lovely.

764

And no doubt it, yeah, it

comes with, like, running an

765

organization comes with challenges.

766

No doubt in this way it brings, it

brings other challenges, but it's yeah.

767

I love, I love how you

Well, one of the things I

768

James Leavesley: think it brings is

One of the things I think it brings

769

is, as you said, we're still feeling

our way, you know, employee ownership

770

in the UK, at least, isn't new.

771

You've probably heard of people

like John Lewis, who have been

772

doing it for like 100 years.

773

But in, in our sector, because of

some Tax changes has meant it's

774

become more prevalent in the last

few years, but we are still one of

775

the first sort of agency companies

that have gone through this change.

776

So there's not really any right

or wrong way or much that we

777

can use in a way of doing this.

778

We're sort of still

feeling our way through it.

779

So, as you say, yeah, there's definitely

some challenges around how do we

780

get that right so we can still move

and sort of act entrepreneurially.

781

And move fast, but make sure that

everyone feels accountable for the right

782

decisions and those types of things.

783

So, yeah I haven't got all

the answers, unfortunately.

784

No, and Maybe one

785

Nikki de Vet: day I will.

786

Yeah, and I'm sure that this will evolve.

787

, if we have a similar conversation

next year, your lessons, the

788

learnings will be very different,

and you have other things to share.

789

But I think the good thing is, is

that all of you are so open minded

790

to it, and you want to, you want to

experiment, and you want to see how

791

this How this might have evolved, right?

792

And everybody's very much behind

it, like your people are behind it,

793

and they're like rooting for this to

work, , and that's, I think, you know.

794

That at this stage is probably,

like, is what you need, is the

795

key thing you need, and then,

you know, you take it from there.

796

Yeah.

797

Lovely.

798

So, no other questions from me, other

than some of our rapid fire questions

799

I will come on to in a second.

800

But, James, is there anything you wish

to add to this part of the conversation?

801

James Leavesley: No, I don't think so.

802

I think, you know As I say, I

think the most, one of the biggest

803

learnings for me is about how it

wasn't just about the destination.

804

It was about the process of getting

there and how beneficial that we went

805

through that process with an external

consultancy to be part of that.

806

And I don't think it took us too long.

807

I think probably from start to

end, it was about three months.

808

I felt that was a good amount of time.

809

But you know, the fact that we went

through that process and got everyone

810

involved and kept People that were day to

day involved with it, informed through our

811

team meetings and other type of things.

812

I think that's been really successful.

813

So yeah.

814

Nikki de Vet: That's really lovely to hear

because one of the things that we really

815

hope to give to the people we work with

is that indeed it's not about just where

816

you get to the end point destination.

817

Like a lot of the richness actually sits

in that journey and in getting there.

818

So I'm glad that that is one of

your, one of your reflections.

819

Okay.

820

Are you up for some rapid fire questions?

821

Yeah.

822

Okay.

823

James Leavesley: Go on.

824

How, how rapid just one word for you.

825

Nikki de Vet: No, no, no.

826

Well, more like three words

sometimes , three words.

827

Okay.

828

What three words, what you

use to describe the workplace

829

culture you would like to lead.

830

James Leavesley: Okay.

831

I would say, empowering

inclusive and entrepreneurial.

832

Nikki de Vet: And what three words would

you use to define the future of work?

833

James Leavesley: Oh gosh right.

834

What three words would I

define the future of work?

835

Complex.

836

It's the

837

Nikki de Vet: first one.

838

Maybe we just need one.

839

James Leavesley: Yeah.

840

I think we'll just go with complex.

841

I think I'd also say dynamic.

842

It's changing so much at the moment, you

know, and I think, you know, post COVID

843

it feels like we haven't quite worked

out how businesses Do business anymore.

844

And there's a bit of work around that.

845

So I think that's, that's

constantly shifting.

846

So yeah, I'll go with

two rather than three.

847

Nikki de Vet: Complex and dynamic.

848

Okay, great.

849

What is your most treasured

spot outside of work?

850

James Leavesley: Well, definitely

my favorite spot is Lake District.

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So my parents used to run a bed and

breakfast in the Lake District, so

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that's definitely my happy place.

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Probably in the past, as I said, that's

running in the fields on my own, but

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I've probably changed that at the moment.

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I've got my daughter into, my

youngest daughter into cycling,

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so I'm trying to get her.

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So I think next time we go, it's great

to have spent some time with her.

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Nikki de Vet: Nice.

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Thank you.

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Well, I think that brings us

to the end of our episode.

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Thank you for listening, everyone.

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We hope you enjoyed learning about

Torchbox and the journey they've been

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on to becoming employee owned and

their journey to hone their vision,

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their purpose, and their values.

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You can find more about James and about

Torchbox on the LinkedIn page, which we

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will link to this episode at Torchbox.

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com.

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If you'd like to get more content from

us, please tune into our podcast for

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more episodes on what's happening in

your culture and leadership space.

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You can hear what's on the

minds of leaders committed

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to change in our community.

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And we talk about the future of work.

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Re imagining work from within is

available wherever you listen to podcasts.

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See you later.