Shownotes
Andy Levine
Bio
In 1996, Andy Levine started DuVine to share what he had realized during a post-college cycling trip in Burgundy, France: in order to really know a place, you have to know its people, its cafés, its villages, and its cuisine—the good things in life.
On that first solo bike tour, Andy learned about wine and met a cast of real, colorful characters who inspired him with their passion. Soon afterward, he started DuVine Cycling + Adventure Co. on a shoestring and a dream. The first tours were developed out of family-run Hotel Bellevue in Beaune as Andy went off the beaten track to find people for his guests to meet. Even today, Andy always asks, “why are we going here?” before he gets on his bike and rides all the roads, connecting the dots for a truly immersive cultural experience.
Andy believes that everyone should have the opportunity to travel the world by bike and to focus on the simple pleasures: enjoying food grown right where you eat it on the farm, spending time talking with a grandmother whose memories are a treasure trove, and experiencing the uncommon, authentic moments that make travel meaningful.
Awards
Virtuoso Preferred Tour Operator
Travel + Leisure World’s Best Tour Operator, 2024
7 World’s Best wins since 2017
Intro
In this enlightening discussion, we engage with Andy Levine, the visionary behind DUVINE Adventures, a boutique cycling travel company that has redefined luxury experiences over the past three decades. The salient point of our dialogue revolves around the intricate balance of scaling a business while maintaining an intimate, personalized service that has become the hallmark of DUVINE. Levine elucidates the challenges and triumphs he faced during the establishment of his enterprise, particularly during the tumultuous times of the COVID-19 pandemic when customer demands threatened to upend his operations. He further shares insights into cultivating a resilient company culture that prioritizes connection and exceptional service, fostering loyalty among both clients and staff. As we traverse the narrative of his entrepreneurial journey, we uncover invaluable lessons applicable to aspiring business leaders seeking to thrive in the competitive landscape of the travel industry.
Conversation
Andy Levine's remarkable journey from a recent college graduate to the founder of Duvine Adventures is a testament to passion, perseverance, and the transformative power of travel. Upon graduating from the University of Denver, Levine immediately moved to France, where he began leading cycling tours through the picturesque Burgundy vineyards. This initial foray into the world of cycling and wine laid the groundwork for what would become a thriving boutique travel company. Over the course of three decades, Duvine Adventures has redefined luxury cycling travel, attracting high-profile clients from across the globe. In this conversation with host Jothy Rosenberg, Levine elaborates on the ethos that drives his company, emphasizing the importance of creating memorable experiences for customers that endure long after the journey concludes.
Levine opens up about the challenges faced during the early years of the business, sharing raw insights into sleepless nights spent scrambling for accommodations after cancellations and the emotional toll of nearly giving up. Yet, it was the unwavering grit instilled in him by his parents that fueled his determination to succeed. He reflects on how the COVID-19 pandemic tested the resilience of his company but ultimately reinforced the importance of community and support within the travel industry. Levine's commitment to maintaining a boutique feel while scaling globally has been pivotal, as he highlights the significance of a strong company culture that fosters loyalty and excellence among staff.
As the conversation unfolds, Levine offers invaluable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs, emphasizing that success is not solely about profit but about the genuine connections forged with clients and team members. His philosophy revolves around the belief that one must remain true to their core values, resisting the temptations of unchecked growth. With anecdotes and reflections on personal experiences, Levine provides listeners with a compelling narrative that encapsulates the essence of building a successful service-oriented business in the competitive landscape of travel and tourism.
Takeaways
- In the realm of luxury cycling travel, Andy Levine has effectively transformed his passion into a successful enterprise, Duvine Adventures, which redefines customer experience by focusing on unique local connections.
- The significance of maintaining a strong company culture is paramount; it not only helps in surviving crises, as evidenced during the COVID-19 pandemic, but also fosters a supportive environment for both employees and clients.
- Andy emphasizes that the essence of entrepreneurship lies in serving others; his grit is rooted in a commitment to not disappointing customers and staff, which fuels his resilience through challenges.
- Duvine Adventures has strategically chosen to remain boutique in nature, consciously limiting group sizes to ensure personalized experiences while scaling operations globally without compromising quality.
- The journey of building Duvine Adventures has been one of perseverance, with Andy recounting sleepless nights and moments of near defeat that ultimately led to a robust business model and loyal customer base.
- In the travel industry, collaboration among competitors is crucial; Andy highlights the supportive community within the sector, which fosters mutual success rather than cutthroat competition.
- DuVine Cycling + Adventure Co. | Luxury Bike Tours and Cycling Vacations
- Who Says You Can't Startup online program for startup founders
- Jothy's TEDx talk - On why those with disabilities tend to overachieve
- The Who Says I Can't Foundation - Jothy's non-profit that helps disabled kids get back into a sport they love to restore their self-esteem
- Our YouTube channel
- Designing Successful Startups — Jothy Rosenberg | Author | Speaker | Podcaster - Site with all podcasts
- Tech Startup Toolkit book
- Please leave us a review
Transcripts
Please meet today's guest, Andy Levine.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker B:E bikes are awesome.
Speaker B:Total equalizer.
Speaker B:She'll crack, crash you, crack you up the hills.
Speaker B:You'll be, she'll be ahead of you and wait for you.
Speaker B:So no E bikes.
Speaker B:You could like my wife.
Speaker B:When we're going to the Tour de France next week and we're going to do Montfonte, hopefully you'll, you'll see us there, running up there and she'll be waiting up top for me.
Speaker B:And that's great.
Speaker B:And she's yelling, you know, and I'm sorry, sucking wind.
Speaker B:And so I think the E bike is great.
Speaker B:I, I ride an E bike to work.
Speaker B:I ride, I love it.
Speaker B:Like, I think E bikes are awesome.
Speaker B:I think more and more people will be on E bikes because they're just, that's.
Speaker B:The technology is just getting better every day and there's no use of struggling.
Speaker B:Too bad.
Speaker B:And it's just more people riding and seeing the world.
Speaker A:What happens when a 22 year old graduates college, moves to France the very next day and starts leading bike tours through Burgundy vineyards?
Speaker A:You get DUVINE Adventures, a 30 year success story that's redefined luxury cycling travel.
Speaker A:Today I'm talking with Andy Levine, who took his passion for cycling and wine and turned it into a boutique empire that attracts high powered clients from around the world.
Speaker A:We'll dive into how he built a company culture so strong it survived Covid when hundreds of customers were demanding refunds.
Speaker A:How he maintains that boutique feel while scaling globally, and why the travel industry operates more like a supportive community than cutthroat competition.
Speaker A:Andy shares the raw truth about those early years.
Speaker A:The sleepless nights in French hotels when reservations got canceled, the moments he almost gave up and the family grit that kept him going.
Speaker A:Plus, we'll explore what it really takes to create those unforgettable experiences that customers remember 15 years later.
Speaker A:Whether you're building a service business, scaling a passion project, or wondering how to maintain quality while growing, Andy's journey from solo bike guide to leading a 200 person global team offers lessons every entrepreneur needs to hear.
Speaker A:And welcome to the show.
Speaker A:Andy, so great to see you, man.
Speaker B:Good to see you.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:It has been a really long time.
Speaker A:So, um, you know, I'm, I'm going to ask you first to tell us.
Speaker A:I'd just like to set context.
Speaker A:Where are you originally from and where do you live now?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'm originally from the north shore of Massachusetts, but lived around the world, but main residence is the south end of Boston and I'm here right now in our office in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Speaker A: pany that you created back in: Speaker B:Well, actually, I incorporated as an entrepreneur in 96, but I started doing this in like 92.
Speaker B:So for all you entrepreneurs out there, you had.
Speaker B:You can you do something called like, do doing business as.
Speaker B:Like, you're not really sure yet.
Speaker B:You got like the foot in.
Speaker B:I moved to France the day after I graduated University of Denver.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:June 5, I was in France riding my bike in the Burgundy Vineyard.
Speaker B:I was, you know, I was working and doing odd stuff and, and yada yada, yada.
Speaker B:And finally, you know, was started leading tours and doing business as.
Speaker B:And then I fully believed that I could do this thing incorporated in 96.
Speaker B:So, you know, I paid the $500, I went down to the State House and you get the corporation thing.
Speaker A:And when I first knew the organization, it was called Duvine Adventures, I think.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, I mean, first actually.
Speaker B:Good point.
Speaker A:First.
Speaker B:It started as Du Funk.
Speaker B:Two separate words.
Speaker B:D U V I N Cycling Tours.
Speaker B:Because it was all about the wine in Burgundy.
Speaker B:I was living in Beaune and I was.
Speaker B:It was all about riding your bike to taste Pinot and Chardonnay on the Burgundy coast.
Speaker B:So some wine bike tour.
Speaker B:I couldn't pronounce it.
Speaker B:Noah could pronounce it.
Speaker B:So I put it together.
Speaker B:Levine, Andy Levine, Levine, Duveen, Duvine.
Speaker B:So I thought like, it's divine.
Speaker B:Though it seemed like one word was better instead of two words because it was complicated and it was Divine Adventures.
Speaker B:And then years ago, you know, good old rebranding and you want to like, you know, you as an entrepreneur and creating company, like what is it day?
Speaker B:Because it didn't really.
Speaker B:So we made it Divine Cycling and Adventure Company.
Speaker B:So it really said, because no one knew, like Divine Adventures.
Speaker B:If you didn't know it, what does that even mean?
Speaker B:But we, you know, we're very clear of what we do.
Speaker B:Like behind us cycling, we are Divine Cycling plus Adventure.
Speaker A:So I am one of your many, many thousands, I'm sure people who participated in one of your tours.
Speaker B:You went to Tuscany years ago?
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A: I went in: Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Too long.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So 15 years ago and we did the seven day trip through Tuscany.
Speaker B:Six days, five nights, unless you.
Speaker B:But all of our trips are Friday to Static, most of them some four day.
Speaker B:But they're six days is enough.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The highlight of the, of the trip was the climb up montalcino.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because 6K climb, it's epic.
Speaker A:It's pretty epic.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I also want to brag for a second because of the whole group of us and I think there were 14 maybe people.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:For some reason I was the only one legged person on that tour.
Speaker A:I'm not sure how that happened.
Speaker A:And, and I made it to the top first.
Speaker B:Well, so there's a few amazing things about that.
Speaker B: You said: Speaker A:15.
Speaker B:15.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And you're talking like this is yesterday, which is so awesome about travel.
Speaker B:And like you can remember that if I asked you what did you have last Tuesday for lunch?
Speaker B:Have any idea?
Speaker B:But you remember this bike trip?
Speaker B:You remember this experience?
Speaker B:I'm not blowing smoke up the vines.
Speaker B:I'm just saying what I love about this industry and what we do is that you can put these memory chips like you remember that Rhino mono, like it's yesterday and that's like over 15 years ago.
Speaker B:And you remember that there were 14 people that you probably connected with and you remember that you still had one leg back then.
Speaker B:So it's pretty amazing.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And the most important thing is that, and really that you were, I remember, the strongest person on the Tour.
Speaker B:And you only had one leg and have one leg.
Speaker B:And you're awesome.
Speaker B:And I know I met you, which I was always inspired meeting you at the Pan Mask challenge, which is coming up soon, and, and I couldn't believe the way you ride and not that I.
Speaker B:And I remember you're like, who says you can't?
Speaker B:From your initial book and just the, how strong you are.
Speaker B:I mean, we're all crapping out with two legs and now people are dealing with an E bike and just, it's unbelievable, the effort.
Speaker B:And that's just as being an entrepreneur or being a cyclist, whatever it is, you got to put in the work and you can never say you can't do it.
Speaker B:So that ride and that climb up to Maltocino is legit with two legs.
Speaker B:And what you did is amazing.
Speaker B:So I want to talk about the.
Speaker A:Idea and the business because so from the, from the perspective of a participant, we've all, by the time you get to, you know, our age, you've, you've, you've been on lots of tours with lots of different companies and, and no one has, has been able, as far as I can tell, to successfully recreate what you do.
Speaker A:I'm not sure exactly why they can't.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker A:Because if they ask me, you know, It.
Speaker A:So here are the aspects of it that I think are phenomenal and.
Speaker A:Which came out of your head.
Speaker A:So one.
Speaker A:You high?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:It's a, it's a, it's a bike tour, and you take care really well of the people that can't.
Speaker A:Can't do the, the hills or can't do the distance.
Speaker A:And the, and the guides are very kind, and they, they do try to encourage people to go ahead and try to ride, you know, each day.
Speaker A:And the, and the guides are, you know, fantastic to ride with.
Speaker A:I mean, you always had one person in the back of the whole group and one person in the front.
Speaker A:And I would be up, of course, with the guy in the front and, and I would be kind of saying, he's from Barcelona.
Speaker B:Oh, Angelo.
Speaker A:Angelo.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Angelo.
Speaker B:I would say he's Italian.
Speaker A:I know he's Italian, but he, he likes Barcelona a lot.
Speaker A:And, and I would say, Angelo, what.
Speaker B:Do you, what do you think about.
Speaker A:We start picking up the pace and, and he felt the pressure, and so he would, he would do it.
Speaker A:And then the, and then the guy on the far back would say, you're way too spread out now.
Speaker A:Come on, you guys.
Speaker A:Anyway, so, so, so you got these great guides.
Speaker A:They know not just the root and the safety and things like that, but they knew the wines, they knew the food.
Speaker A:They had special places to stop for lunch that they knew the owners of or you did and introduced them.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker A:And there were, you know, you're on these back roads and you're not ever on, you know, busy roads.
Speaker A:And, and one of the things that's great about Tuscany is that every town is built on the top of a hill because they were trying to protect themselves.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so you climb up for, for lunch, and then you have, after lunch, you have a, a straight shot down.
Speaker A:And, and for the first three days, we didn't drink anything at lunch, and then we just got more into the Italian way of doing things, and we would have a little bit of wine with, with lunch, but there's another big hill at the end of the day to get to, to the sleeping spot.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But, you know, the good news is, is that after you've woken up in the morning and had some breakfast, you got a long downhill thing to get the day started.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So the roots were incredible, the food was incredible.
Speaker A:And, and you found these hotels that were, yeah, you know, just a gem that probably don't.
Speaker A:Probably aren't rated in.
Speaker A:And you probably wouldn't even find them yourself if you were looking at like TripAdvisor.
Speaker A:So that takes you and a few other people that are out scouting continuously.
Speaker A:And, and that's what I think you've, you've built is this unique kind of thing.
Speaker A:And so I just wanted you to take us all back to when you were really a kid basically and saw an opportunity.
Speaker A:And what gave you the idea that you could do something different?
Speaker A:Was it just the biking emphasis or what was it?
Speaker B:Well, man, this is a fully loaded question.
Speaker B:But I mean, yes, the full concept is, and I've had this for over 30 years, is to see the world by and see the best parts of the world and to always be this local boutique company.
Speaker B:Never wanted to be a big, huge corporation.
Speaker B:We are a big company, but more in the boutique sense of, you know, like Apple, they make the iPhone and sell a lot of them and they do one thing pretty good.
Speaker B:I've always said I want to do Bike Force and I want to do it really well.
Speaker B:I want our whole team to be the best at what we do and to offer the best.
Speaker B:And we're not going everywhere.
Speaker B:So we, we still work very hard.
Speaker B:I think from way back when, when you said, when I started, I mean, we were good.
Speaker B:I always like loved the local connections.
Speaker B:Love the connections with the old winemaker, the olive oil maker, the whoever, the artist, the painter, the chef, and the small hotels that, you know, whether they're five star or a maseria or a villa, but they have to be, you know, very special to the region where there's a connection with the owner.
Speaker B:Like that stuff people care about, no one really remembers or cares about the person wearing the, the big tuxedo that has no personality.
Speaker B:Like we all want to, you know.
Speaker A:For me at least.
Speaker B:And it works for our Divine and how I want to roll to make connections with people and build relationships and.
Speaker B:And you want to do that on vacation, whether you're sitting at a nice table or you were on a bike ride or in a wine cellar, you had a hotel and sitting at a pool drinking.
Speaker B:Us Brits like connectivity and creating a relationship is super important and that's what we like to do all day long.
Speaker B:So we've gotten better at that.
Speaker B:Like when we first started, we were a little sloppy, but we still had the same passion.
Speaker B:Divine really hasn't changed and there are a lot of great operators out there.
Speaker B:And you ask me how come we do it and they don't.
Speaker B:I'm not really sure how people operate their businesses.
Speaker B:I don't really care.
Speaker B:Like an artist, I think a business Owner, entrepreneur is like an artist.
Speaker B:You got to look at the landscape and what people do.
Speaker B:But we've always been in more and more over the time.
Speaker B:We've been more.
Speaker B:We're very really focused in who we are as a company, what is our culture, what's important to us and what's important to our guests and who we, who we cater to and we're confident in that.
Speaker B:So, so like being divine is very important.
Speaker B:We don't, we're not ever trying to be anyone else.
Speaker B:And I wish more, you know, the success of other businesses or people, but we've been successful for who we are and it might not be for everyone, but we, we do say that cycling and traveling the world is for everyone.
Speaker B:And that's why we offer, like we can offer behind me here, Mallorca, which can be done by anyone or you can go flat, you know, through many places with the invention of the good old E bike.
Speaker B:So you were talking about your trip and going up Maltal Chino.
Speaker B:There was one front, one in the back.
Speaker B:And so we still try to do that, but now with the E bike, you know, people are flying and.
Speaker B:Which is good and bad, but again, it opens up the market to more people traveling by bike.
Speaker B:So, so listen, we, you know, I think what's important is to business, in business is to know who you are and stick to that, stick true to what your brand represents for what.
Speaker B:What we're trying to do is exactly what you said.
Speaker B:It's, it's great cycling roads with awesome connectivity with like really nice walking, you know, hotels, food and wine.
Speaker B:Keeping it boutique.
Speaker B:You said 14 people, that's our max.
Speaker B:So we're, you know, we're actually averaging probably 9 to 12 people per tour.
Speaker B:So, so keeping it small, boutique and very focused in, in the best locations.
Speaker B:I'm not, we're not going everywhere.
Speaker B:We don't go everywhere, so.
Speaker B:But we're going to go where, where, where the great roads connect to beautiful hotels with really interesting culture and good people and, and really nice, healthy, good food and like, you know, Sunday to Friday, banging out as hard as we can and then go home to your world and tell your friends, hopefully come back.
Speaker A:One of the things I think is going on here, though, is that you're not this CEO who sits back at the main office in Cambridge and just directs people from a distance.
Speaker A:I'm sure you've got people who are out scouting, but I, there's, there's clearly your touch on everything, so.
Speaker A:And you've made a life where you're okay being on the road that much.
Speaker A:But, but, but, but you're up there a lot.
Speaker B:Listen, it happened with my touch.
Speaker B:But everyone at Divine, like we all speak the same language.
Speaker B:Like they're awesome.
Speaker B:We have a great culture and great group of people.
Speaker B:Like we have managers in every country and product managers and like, like without them we, we wouldn't be who we are.
Speaker B:Like yes, I had the passion and the idea, but people jumped on and I love these people and trust them.
Speaker B:Like we have a great group of managers and leaders who are, who are doing way better than I could do right now.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker B:Like, you know, we have, we have a guy named Harvey in Spain who's really jumped on like our Mallorca and our Basque country and these things and brought these extra things.
Speaker B:And the guy named Tom who maybe you've met who's been with us for years, what he's done in Italy and across over to Norway and degrees and, and a guy named Marco who's, who's right now in the Dolomites.
Speaker B:He's in charge of our challenge series which crossed the Alps and the Dolomites and the Pyrenees and, and, and geez.
Speaker B:We got our guy Joao in Portugal who.
Speaker B:All of these, all of these, all of our team and our leaders and our guides and our managers.
Speaker B:Like are we all the same mission?
Speaker B:See the world by bike.
Speaker B:Customer service, hospitality like and logistics.
Speaker B:We're really a logistics company that like puts a smile on for hospitality.
Speaker B:There's a lot of logistics J as you can imagine with vans routes and technology and sort of reservations and, and so it, it's pretty hot and heavy.
Speaker B:I mean but we do get a lot of amazing.
Speaker B:We call them our gas.
Speaker B:You know, very high powered people like yourself did successful and they, and we, we know that our clientele is pretty high end so it, it sort of gives us this energy to just go above and beyond because it's really fun to, to make someone go wow.
Speaker B:And, and like that's when I get jazzed up every day.
Speaker B:You can like for you to remember 15 years ago and for like I get emails and I'll get them today or people just going this is unbelievable.
Speaker B:For most people who can have a lot of things in life, it just, it's awesome.
Speaker B:And plus we're on bikes and you love bikes and that's the greatest thing.
Speaker B:We're riding our bike, having fun.
Speaker B:You feel like a kid so it's better.
Speaker B:But like listen, it's dangerous.
Speaker B:I mean we had someone who fell today actually they were Hiking and they fell and broke their ankle last week.
Speaker B:You know, people fall, you fall bikes, you got to be staying.
Speaker B:Safety.
Speaker A:Safety, yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So if they broke their ankle, so you guys had to transport them.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, we're sitting to a hospital.
Speaker B:You know, safety is huge.
Speaker B:And then they got to go home.
Speaker A:I assume people, well, you got to.
Speaker B:Get cleared to travel home.
Speaker B:That's a whole nother thing.
Speaker B:You need the, you know, clear to travel thing.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So, you know, I don't want to talk too much about all that stuff, but people, you know, there are.
Speaker B:Listen, we're running a lot of trips every week and a lot of people.
Speaker B:So people get hurt bikes.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, these are all the whatevers like that happen.
Speaker B:But that's life.
Speaker B:We're dealing with real life.
Speaker B:We're running real time trips on, you know, in real high nature.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:But the most important thing is to pick a company that's experienced.
Speaker B:You got to go over with an experienced operator that has like all that because you can get in trouble.
Speaker B:So, you know, a lot of people could think that they could start this, but you know, there are companies out there that you know over 30 years and with the experience, we definitely take it very serious.
Speaker B:You know, the vacation business is in tourism.
Speaker B:You have to take it very seriously.
Speaker B:You know, we're dealing with a lot of things.
Speaker B:Planes, lost baggages.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker A:Hi.
Speaker A:The podcast you are listening to is a companion to my recent book tech startup Toolkit, how to launch strong and Exit Big.
Speaker A:This is the book I wish I'd had as I was founding and running eight startups over 35 years.
Speaker A:I tell the unvarnished truth about what went right and especially about what went wrong.
Speaker A:You could get it from all the usual booksellers.
Speaker A:I hope you like it.
Speaker A:It's a true labor of love.
Speaker A:Now back to the show.
Speaker A:Do very many people try to ship their own bikes over for the trip?
Speaker B:It no.
Speaker B:On our level four, when we're crossing the Pyrenees or the Alps or the Dolomites Swiss Alps, people can because they feel very comfortable with their fit.
Speaker B:But we just have a new fleet and a partnership with Colnago Bikes, which is the bike that's on the podium by Todd.
Speaker B:If you're watching the Tour de France right now, that's the bike we have basically is it, you know, it's a really nice conago.
Speaker B:So because we don't want like let us deal, let us take care of it.
Speaker B:Like it's full service.
Speaker B:That's hospitality and high end customer service.
Speaker B:I don't bring my bike.
Speaker B:I have a.
Speaker B:Well, whatever.
Speaker B:I like these Conagos.
Speaker B:I like our Cannondales.
Speaker B:Our Cannondales are amazing also.
Speaker B:So, so we have really.
Speaker B:We, you know, we're a bike tour operator, a number one.
Speaker B:So we better have the best damn bike.
Speaker B:Plus the E bikes, you know, our road E bikes, hybrid E bikes.
Speaker B:So in the.
Speaker B:And we have mechanics in all these countries.
Speaker B:You have to take care of your bikes.
Speaker B:And that's a huge thing that we've really worked hard on because, like, you can't offer a crappy bike.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:So I, when I travel to Europe and we almost always try to.
Speaker A:When we're in, in any city, we try to rent.
Speaker A:Carol and I try to rent bikes and, and, and, and ride around in the cities, and it's always a little bit of a challenge because I'll tell them, listen, I got to bring my own pedal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I have to clip in, and I can't risk not clipping in because I can't ride a bike if I can't clip in.
Speaker A:Because you got to pull up and push down really hard.
Speaker B:You bring your pedals.
Speaker A:So I bring my pedals.
Speaker A:Pedal and pedal.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And, and, and this.
Speaker A:We, we did a trip to.
Speaker A:Well, we did it.
Speaker A:We were doing this river cruise, basically, using Viking from Amsterdam to Budapest.
Speaker A:And there were two or three spots that we wanted to ride bikes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And, and so one of them, everything worked out great.
Speaker A:They, my pedal fit.
Speaker A:But another one, we just really had trouble communicating.
Speaker A:And so I also have this Velcro thing which you strap around.
Speaker A:You wrap it around my foot and the pedal, and that gives me.
Speaker A:Essentially, I'm attached to the pedal.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now the problem is, you know, how do you get.
Speaker A:You can't, you can't get out of it.
Speaker A:And, but this was on a tandem, and so Carol was on the back.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:And so she's my kickstand, basically.
Speaker A:But it's a heavy thing.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:This was, it was, it was insane because at every traffic light, she would push, push, push, and then I would start cranking and we're, you know, we're going like this to keep up.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It was crazy.
Speaker B:I mean, listen, it's, it's hard.
Speaker B:And especially what you're dealing with.
Speaker B:That's, that's hard.
Speaker B:And one.
Speaker B:Well, boy, you are one tough.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:But cyclists are tough.
Speaker B:We follow.
Speaker B:We get up, man.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So what else?
Speaker A:So, so there, there you're in this general category, of course, of the Travel industry and, and the more maybe niche part of that, which is the adventure part of your, of your name.
Speaker A:Do you socialize with them?
Speaker A:Do you go to meetings with them?
Speaker A:Do you, do you, are you part of an industry in that sense?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Well, so, so there's, there's consortiums or course or what do they call them?
Speaker B:Consortiums or.
Speaker B:The virtuoso Travel is this luxury travel network with operators and advisors and I'm, I'm in those.
Speaker B:I listen.
Speaker B:Actually a cool part about this industry industry is that, you know, travel and tourism, there's a really good world of people.
Speaker B:I mean very close.
Speaker B:I have a ton of friends in the industry and there's Adventure Travel Net Network, there's this and there's all these, there's all these trade shows.
Speaker B:There's things called Pure and iltm, which is like adventure travel markets and Con and Merit Cash and these are huge.
Speaker B:It's a big industry and the people are great.
Speaker B:I have a ton of friends and the networking.
Speaker B:What's really cool about the travel industry is that we all take care of each other.
Speaker B:Like from hotels to travel advisors to operators like us to.
Speaker B:We all want to see everyone succeed because we're all supporting each other.
Speaker B:So it's a really nice network and people are polite, they're smart and they love hospitality.
Speaker B:So, so it's really good being.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've been on a lot, you know, I've been on boards and I've been, you know, I've spoke at these things and I just show up and so there is a lot, there are a lot of things to go to and I, I'm getting a little tired of some of them because you know, but it's important in any industry to, to, to, to.
Speaker B:You know, I always say a lot of business happens in those bars.
Speaker B:You know, who you, you know, you connect with people in a bar and you have a conversation or over a coffee and you build relationships because you know, I like working with people that I trust and that I can call up and have their mobile phone and I want people to know that they, they, they, they can have a, they should have a relationship with me.
Speaker B:I always tell people I always give out my mobile to whoever.
Speaker B:I don't care but don't bother me but you know, call me up if you need something or you know, for our guests and, and, and our partners like let day communicate it.
Speaker B:It's a relationship.
Speaker B:We are going to help each other.
Speaker B:So it's cool.
Speaker A:That's really interesting because you don't you're not describing it at all as this sort of cutthroat competition business that I sort of expected.
Speaker A:Instead, I mean, are you guys hope.
Speaker B:Well, go ahead.
Speaker B:You know, people in it.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:You know, other bike tour operators can be competitive, like, you know, whatever, but it's good to keep your, you know, your friends close and your enemies closer.
Speaker B:But so, so listen, we're.
Speaker B:Listen, there's enough.
Speaker B:I always say there's enough business for everyone to go around.
Speaker B:The way I like to roll is like, it's good karma and like, and be positive, like setting a nice imprint, being generous, and then you get to business.
Speaker B:I don't need to be too.
Speaker B:I don't need to be a jerk to my competitors.
Speaker B:Like, how can we help each other?
Speaker B:I wish I would speak more because you can learn.
Speaker B:But now, like, it's not that cutthroat.
Speaker B:Like, like everyone's trying to.
Speaker B:I mean, listen, the hardest thing I'd say in our industry is, are there enough good beds?
Speaker B:Like we all say, for example, we all want to go to Coolia or Mallorca behind sometimes there's some.
Speaker B:Who's got the beds.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But we all live like, it's not every day, like maybe another company.
Speaker B:Tuesday, Wednesday, and we're there Thursday, Friday.
Speaker B:So, like, it sort of works itself out.
Speaker B:But there is, you know, with a lot more money in this world and a lot more access to travel and a lot more planes flying to places there, you know, a lot more people from New York are taking up beds in places.
Speaker B:So that's the hard part is finding the product.
Speaker B:Product.
Speaker B:We mean hotels, so maybe that's a little competitive.
Speaker B:But, like, there is ebb and flows, I think.
Speaker A:And, yeah, and, and then if you, if you do have challenges out on the road, because there's a lot of other.
Speaker A:We would, we would see other bike.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:Tour people.
Speaker A:When we were out on the road and we never.
Speaker A:Well, the trip we were on, there was no need to call for help.
Speaker A:But, but do you ever have to, you know, lean on each other?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, well, like, we've never.
Speaker B:We have our own resources and our own, like, you know, protocols for if we need.
Speaker B:We don't.
Speaker B:We never need to call an operator for anything.
Speaker B:And, and, and, and no one's really called us for help.
Speaker B:You know, we have enough.
Speaker B:But, you know, we work within our.
Speaker B:There's none of that going on.
Speaker B:Like, we all have enough bikes.
Speaker B:I hope.
Speaker B:Like, I know that I have enough and well, you know, things do get stolen.
Speaker B:We just had some bikes Stolen last week.
Speaker B:Sadly, in France, that happens.
Speaker B:There's a lot of theft out there.
Speaker B:You gotta, you know, we.
Speaker B:And even things are locked and whatever, but fans get broken into, so.
Speaker B:But yeah, no one's calling for help for me.
Speaker B:And that's the one thing it biz people.
Speaker B:Yeah, we all.
Speaker B:And we're not calling anyone else.
Speaker B:We better damn figure it out.
Speaker B:So actually, we plan a lot.
Speaker B:There's a ton.
Speaker B: We're already thinking about: Speaker B:You know, we're thinking about September, October, which is big travel months.
Speaker B:But you know, we're thinking of the future and, and, and shit's gonna happen.
Speaker B:Excuse my language.
Speaker B:In our industry, you know, there are a lot of things out of our control.
Speaker B:But you know, we're confident in what we do.
Speaker B:We're stoked.
Speaker B:And we just want people to travel.
Speaker B:And if they're gonna travel by bike, they're gonna come with, fine, that's it.
Speaker B:Period.
Speaker B:End of story.
Speaker A:So, so let me just ask this.
Speaker A:So let's say the Andy of, you know, your youth.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Was listening right now and thinking, boy, I'd love to start a company like that.
Speaker A:And of course, what you've just said is, boy, you've got to have a lot of experience to.
Speaker A:To do it right.
Speaker A:So what would you tell somebody like that?
Speaker A:As to.
Speaker B:When I see a young people these days, I mean, you have to be in it for the long haul.
Speaker B:And maybe that's with every business.
Speaker B:But I, I knew that I didn't want to do anything else.
Speaker B:Like, I loved riding.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:I love riding my bike.
Speaker B:It wasn't about the money.
Speaker B:Like, and there's not a lot of money in tourism.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't do it for the money.
Speaker B:Like, I wanted to see the world by bike.
Speaker B:I wanted to, you know, I like the hospitality aspect and I like that I made a living that I could like pay my rent and eat some food.
Speaker B:So, so, so there are people that want care just about making a ton of dough or whatever.
Speaker B:But I think no matter what, you know, I would tell someone that you better be in it for the long.
Speaker B:Because like, there are many times that, you know, I was sitting in a hotel room in France or wherever where I was, like, I could have packed it in because it was like very, you know, showing up in the olden days to a hotel and they just decided to cancel our reservations and I'm scrambling rooms or, you know, working with this person saying, no and this and, and like, and just you know, and whatever and making, you know, losing them so, so, so yeah, like anything, you just got to be in, in for it.
Speaker B:But definitely I pulled my hair out too much.
Speaker B:It's probably why I have gray hair now, you know, because it was a lot of work.
Speaker B:It was a lot of work, a lot of stress.
Speaker B:You're not like every single week was a different again, sorry, shit show.
Speaker B:But like, because I was managing a lot, you know.
Speaker B:You know, you gotta be patient until you can hire great people.
Speaker B:So the thing about Divine today is like we just have such an awesome stable of people, great culture of people that like we are in it to win it every day and like, and the team is awesome and I could like enjoy it and like my goal is just to, you know, I want to keep our guests happy, but I just love our team and I want to make sure they have all the resources to everything they need so they can stick around and we can help grow and everyone's got a good life, you know.
Speaker B:Everyone wants to have a good life.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Whether you're traveling on a bike tour with us or you're working at a company, like you should have fun and like the people you're with.
Speaker B:That's what I like.
Speaker A:How many people are, are, you know, part of the team at, at Dubine?
Speaker B:Well, I'm not sure the exact headcount right now.
Speaker B:I mean we, we have our Boston US corporation so I, I'd say probably close to 40.
Speaker B:We have people here, we have, we have our nice office here in Cambridge and, and then there are people out California and in other states that are remote with, I love them here, but they're remote because whether they're in finance or marketing team, not that we want.
Speaker B:Our customer service and sales team are all located here.
Speaker B:A few outside that are not working with us here, but there's amazing.
Speaker B:And then we have our European companies and so that's more.
Speaker B:And then with probably 150 guides.
Speaker B:So it's a, we're talking 200 plus people.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Hey, I'm just going to ask one final question.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yes, sure.
Speaker B:Let's do it.
Speaker A:To, to do a startup, which this was what you're, you're about to have your 30th anniversary from your startup.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're still a startup.
Speaker A:Okay, good.
Speaker A:So to, to do a startup takes grit.
Speaker A:We've, we see that all the time.
Speaker A:And, and when you look back on, you know, where you started and, and, and, and how you dealt with all those difficult times where you almost, you know, pulled your hair out or almost gave up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where did, where, where do you think your grit to do all this came from?
Speaker B:I'd probably say my parents, my father, My father had his own business and he never quit.
Speaker B:Like he, he was in the vending business.
Speaker B:Like when I was a kid, like high school, elementary school, I was filling up soda machines and like in, you know, you arrive at five in the morning, get in a truck.
Speaker B:And he had amazing group of employees, hard working guys and women and like, and just it was like you do the job, you take care of the customer.
Speaker B:I guess, I guess my grit comes from, is I don't want to let anyone down.
Speaker B:Like, if someone pays us money, like, and like commits and has some water to like, we owe it.
Speaker B:I owe it to the customer, I owe it to the staff.
Speaker B:That's the grit.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that's grit or that's like just inherent, like something inside.
Speaker B:But like, I really respect our guests and I respect our team and I'll never give up on either of them on.
Speaker B:I won't.
Speaker B:We came close during COVID I mean, I was on my hands and knees in Covet and thank God my wife was like, you know, after a few days of crying, she slapped me across the head and kicked me in the ass and said, let's go.
Speaker B:Excuse my language.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker B:We are not giving because, you know, we were almost dying and it was like watching a child, like to have hundreds of people, hundreds of people standing outside your door.
Speaker B:Like we call it outside the door, but wanting their money.
Speaker B:Like you don't create a business of just handing out money, returning.
Speaker B:So that was a little weird, like us not getting any sales and returning everything.
Speaker B:I was like, we're like dying.
Speaker B:And so, so that was huge to be like, let's.
Speaker B:We're going to be stronger than ever.
Speaker B:And like something just like, oh, you're right.
Speaker B:And like we invested during COVID We're like, how can we do more and taking care of the team and we like, that was a huge moment, man.
Speaker B:It was a huge moment for our staff and us to like, let's go.
Speaker B:And so, so, so just, you know, grin, whatever it is.
Speaker B:I mean, I try to have it on the bike and you can't give up when you're riding up a hill.
Speaker B:Like, what are you going to do you.
Speaker B:Once you get to that summit?
Speaker B:You know how it is.
Speaker B:You've done a lot of amazing things.
Speaker B:You've.
Speaker B:I know You've swam across Alcatraz.
Speaker B:You down to make like you know what it's like when you finish.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker B:But while you're doing it, it sucks and you got to go.
Speaker B:But there's nothing like having ice cream and cake and all that fun stuff when you're done and drinking that glass of wine.
Speaker B:So, so being the goal line and knowing that you will get there, you have to.
Speaker B:And if not, you'll get there the next day and you keep on getting it.
Speaker B:But if you chip away every day right in whether it's in business or in sports or whatever, like you got a goal and you have, man, you.
Speaker A:Could have been a coach with the, with the pep talk you just gave.
Speaker B:Listen, I like you.
Speaker B:I speak from the heart.
Speaker B:Like, there's, I don't have anything written down here.
Speaker B:Like you got, you either have it or you don't.
Speaker B:And so I try to surround my people myself with people that have it.
Speaker B:And that's our team, our staff has it.
Speaker B:And like, and I'm, and I get motivated by them.
Speaker B:Like, you know, our team is awesome and those are going to give over to your customers.
Speaker B:So if you have a business that has solid team and like, and listen, I get coached.
Speaker B:People, you know, some of my team, I love it.
Speaker B:They yell at me, say shut up, whatever.
Speaker B:No, we're doing this.
Speaker B:I'm like, yeah, hey listen, you're the man.
Speaker B:I want to see you back on a bike.
Speaker B:Are you still riding the PMC?
Speaker B:While I see you, then I will.
Speaker A:I, I do not do the PMC because the, the, the, the amount to raise each, each year got so big that I do the prouty up in New Hampshire instead.
Speaker B:Still for, it's great.
Speaker A:It's, it's a great ride.
Speaker A:I, I love the, the climb.
Speaker A:You do 2, 2, 2,000 foot climbs in the White Mountains.
Speaker B:I know that ride.
Speaker B:Send us and I can donate and support you.
Speaker B:I'd love to.
Speaker A:I, I, I, okay, well, I'll, I'll let you know.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I love that ride.
Speaker A:And in three weeks, I will be doing my 30th Alcatra swim.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:30 years and you haven't been bit by a shark?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:You know why?
Speaker A:Because if the shark comes along and he looks at me, he says, oh, somebody's already working on him, right?
Speaker B:30.
Speaker B:Oh man, that's amazing.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker A:That's, it's gonna, it's gonna be a big one because the whole family is gonna come and, and you know, it's, it's going to be very exciting and I'm training really hard to get to be, you know, solid at it.
Speaker A:I'd love to be on the podium, I really would, but unfortunately I'm the top of my age group, so that's a disadvantage.
Speaker B:It always is.
Speaker B:Always something I'm add but yeah, and the podium is good.
Speaker B:I like to say podium lifestyle, which means as long as you live a good life and you're, you're going hard, you know, on the podium of life.
Speaker B:So, you know, so live a podium lifestyle.
Speaker B:And I can't wait till I have a podcast someday and I'm going to interview you because I got a lot of questions for you while I'm sitting here because, like, the things you've done are pretty inspirational and, and thank you for hitting me up.
Speaker B:It's always, I'm glad we're friends and I hope to see you on a bike and, and, and keep up always.
Speaker B:You're such a great entrepreneur, too.
Speaker B:Well, listen, my man.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:I hope this is.
Speaker A:Thank you your listeners.
Speaker A:This was.
Speaker B:If your people like, email me Andy Divine.
Speaker B:Okay, look us up.
Speaker B:If I can help, hit me up on LinkedIn.
Speaker B:Always happy to help.
Speaker A:And it's, it's so wonderful to see you and this has been a wonderful conversation.
Speaker A:Thank you so much, my friend.
Speaker B:You're welcome.
Speaker A:And now for your startup founder toolkit.
Speaker A:Tool number one, Culture is your competitive moat.
Speaker A:Andy's secret weapon isn't routes or hotels.
Speaker A:It's people who speak the same language.
Speaker A:Build a team culture so strong that everyone naturally delivers your vision without you having to micromanage.
Speaker A:When your culture is right, scaling becomes about finding people who fit, not controlling people who don't.
Speaker A:Tool number two, stay true to your core, even when growth tempts you.
Speaker A:Duvine could have gone everywhere and done everything, but Andy stayed focused.
Speaker A:Best cycling roads, boutique hotels, local connections.
Speaker A:Maximum 14 people per tour.
Speaker A:Know what you do exceptionally well.
Speaker A:Resist the urge to dilute it and let that focus become your brand's foundation.
Speaker A:Tool number three, grit comes from serving others, not just yourself.
Speaker A:Andy's persistence doesn't come from wanting to win.
Speaker A:It comes from not wanting to let people down.
Speaker A:When your motivation shifts from I want to succeed to I won't let my customers and team down, you tap into a deeper source of resilience that will carry you through the inevitable dark moments every startup faces.
Speaker A:That's our episode with Andy.
Speaker A:Until next time, keep designing your success.
Speaker A:The show notes contain useful resources and links.
Speaker A:Please follow and rate us@podchaser.com designingsuccessful startups.
Speaker A:Also please share and like us on your social media channels.
Speaker A:This is Jothi Rosenberg saying TTFN Tata for now.
