Hey there, listener! Thank you for checking out our older seasons! We're adding this note on the top of the show notes to keep you up-to-date with the show. Connect with Jen Amos and get bonus content when you subscribe to our private podcast show, Inside the Fort by US VetWealth, at http://insidethefort.com/

Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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149: "Telling your story, getting it down on paper, getting it out through art, and getting it out in the world, in some way, is mystically healing." Heart to Script with Amy Uptgraft and Lea Johnson

At the Veteran's Spouse Project (VSP), Amy Uptgraft and Lea Johnson work very hard to create a safe space for military spouses to share where they are on their life's journey. Amy updates us on the current VSP offerings since she first joined us in February 2021. First time on the show, Lea shares the headspace she's currently in as she and her husband anticipate military transition. Together, they talk about their intense desire to build true community based on authenticity, how everyone's story has equal weight, how listeners can sign up for their next Heart to Script program, and much more.

Get Involved with The Veterans Spouse Project

• https://veteransspouseproject.org/
• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAwmu0ULu3yp4TZ8TlFaMQQ
• https://www.facebook.com/veteransspouseproject
• https://www.instagram.com/veteransspouseproject/

Additional Resources

• 079: “The stability of a military spouse’s mental health is the cornerstone of the military family.” Theatre and expressive arts with Amy Uptgraft https://www.holdingdownthefortpodcast.com/episode/079

Announcements

• Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth is a Finalist for the 13th Annual The Plutus Awards presented by Capital Group for “Best Military Personal Finance Content.” Read more at https://bit.ly/hdtf-plutus-22

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RETURNING FALL 2023

The award-winning podcast, Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth, is returning for Season 7 in Fall 2023 to share inspiring stories of service and self-sufficiency from the military community! This show is a must-listen for military servicemembers and families interested in pursuing financial autonomy while serving our nation.

The show is very excited to announce its new partnership with The Rosie Network, which will include featuring the stories of Service2CEO Cohort Members. Read more about this exciting partnership at https://issuu.com/therosienetwork/docs/me_mag_2023/16

Our main sponsor US VetWealth is proud to announce their newest FREE resource hub: Military Retirement Blueprint — the perfect knowledge library for career retiring military officers who want to make the most of their retirement. This specialized program provides training, guides, consulting, investment-grade insurance strategies, financial & retirement planning, and more. Join for FREE today by visiting: https://usvetwealth.com/war-chest-learning-center-access-the-military-retirement-blueprint/

Stay connected and get the latest updates from our Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth community by subscribing to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/gTTOdT Questions? Email jen@holdingdownthefortpodcast.com

In August 2022, Jen Amos' work on the podcast was recognized by Disney Institute and she was hand-selected as the only non-Disney employee to moderate the first Military Spouse Employment panel for the Veterans Institute Summit. March 2022, Jenny Lynne has voted the 2022 Naval Station Norfolk Armed Forces Insurance Military Spouse of the Year. November 2020, Jen Amos was awarded “Media Professional of the Year” at The Rosie Network Entrepreneur Awards! The show continued to collect award nominations in the following years. In September 2021, the show made the Final Slate in the 16th Annual People's Choice Podcast Awards for the Government & Organizations category. In November 2021, the show was an Award Finalist for the 5th Annual National Veteran & Military Spouse Entrepreneur Awards. December 2021, the show was a Golden Crane Podcast Awards Nominee. September 2022, the show was a Finalist for the 13th Annual Plutus Awards presented by Capital Group for “Best Military Personal Finance Content.”

Holding Down the Fort has also been featured in multiple media outlets including Military Entrepreneur (M.E.) Magazine, MOAA’s Never Stop Learning Podcast, The Leadership Void Podcast, Lessons Learned for Vets Podcast, Sisters in Service Podcast, Get 2 Vet, Blue Star Families of Dayton & Southwestern Ohio, Legacy Magazine, U.S. Veterans Magazine, The American MilSpouse, VeteranCrowd Network, It's a Military Life, VirtForce, Military Veteran Dad Podcast, and much more.

Enjoy our show? Kindly leave us a written 5-Star review on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/30SJ7NW, Podchaser https://bit.ly/3dnCacY, or write a LinkedIn Recommendation for Jen Amos https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenamos/edit/forms/recommendation/write/

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode here at the award winning show holding down the fort. I am a creator co host and new cat mom, Jen emos. And as always, I have my co host with me Jenny Lynch troop who is a military spouse, mom of two boys, and military family advocate Jennylyn. Welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:18

Hey, so glad to be here today.

Jen Amos 0:20

Yes, and we are really excited because today's guest was your suggestion. And one of them one of two of them, actually was on our show in the past. So let me go ahead and bring them on right now. We have Amy Updegraff, who is the founder and artistic director of the veterans spouse project. And we have Leah Johnson, who is the Executive Director and developmental director at the Veterans spouse project. So without further ado, Amy and Leah, welcome to hold none of our Amy specifically. Welcome back. And Leah, welcome to hold down the board.

Unknown Speaker 0:55

Thank you guys so much for having they here. It's

Unknown Speaker 0:57

so good to be back. Yeah,

Jen Amos 1:00

yeah, absolutely. Gentlemen, I thought I'd open up with you real quick, because you had been working with Amy for some time now and suggested that we bring her back on the show. So any opening thoughts about that?

Speaker 1 1:10

Speaker 2 3:31

Thank you, thank you for sharing that. Anyone? Yeah, we, we try very hard to make sure we are creating space for people to to just share where they are on on their male spouse or just life's journey.

Speaker 3 3:45

And there's something to be said about being in a group, a community of other spouses, people who have walked I mean, we say we talk a lot about the generational benefits that we get from the older spouses and the younger spouses now. I'm here at West Point. And there's they say that the long gray line of grads and I think there's so much truth to that. There's a parable there for spouses somewhere. I just haven't dug it out yet, but it is beautiful. So that's what I loved about especially our this past book club. It was very intergenerational. Yeah.

Jen Amos 4:18

I love that. I feel like I missed out on something. That's okay.

Unknown Speaker 4:22

There's always another one. There's a new one coming up. Heard about it last night.

Jen Amos 4:29

Love it. Love it. Yeah, I'm actually currently part of another book club. But what I like about book clubs is it's not necessarily about the book. I think the book is a conversation starter and an icebreaker. It's more about like people's interpretation of the book, and the relationships I think that can foster from that being able to share your perspective and your story and how the book resonates with you in a certain way. So it sounds like it was a wonderful bonding experience for the people that were a part of it.

Unknown Speaker 4:57

Oh 100%

Jen Amos 4:59

Speaker 2 5:45

we did I mean, we like every other organization on the planet, when the pandemic hit, you know, had to make the hard shift and do okay, how do we still meet needs of our community in a way that is safe and make sense. So we did, we decided to move it, all of our offerings at the time online. And of course, like all things, when you open yourself up, just amazing things come to you. So we had an incredibly successful first year of offering online classes. And we brought in facilitators from all across the country, we offered a really diverse offering of writing and creative arts and meditation, mindfulness yoga, like we kind of just threw everything at the wall to see if it's gonna stick. And you know, then over the course of the last 18 months, we've been able to kind of focus in on what the community really desires, what seemed to really be effective, and speak to the hearts of the people that were participating. And so yeah, we've been able to continue, like gentleman said, we did a book club last summer, but now this fall will offer this fall, we're going to offer a writing class that I will teach another book club, and then an additional, just kind of creative arts expressive arts workshop going into the holidays. So we definitely aren't slowing down when it comes to the virtual offerings. And I think we found the added piece that as a military community, it speaks to us pandemic or not, I mean, none of us are in the same place, none of us will stay in the same place necessarily. So to be able to offer this to our military spouse communities just felt really good. I mean, we all know the value of in person, community, where we are and the importance of that, but to also be able to have some sustainable community online. And you know, you see the same faces and classes and you kind of know their stories, and you're able to really connect and feel safe and supported, I think, will always speak to our mission, because it's 100%, who and what we represent.

Jen Amos 7:55

Yeah, I think the key thing I'm gathering from the veteran spouse project is that sense of community and connection, that seems to be the core of what you guys do.

Speaker 2 8:05

That's definitely what we strive to be and do. And I've spoken about this before. I think, unintentionally, military spouses tend to put on the right we're gonna put on the brave face, and we're gonna suck it up, buttercup, and we're gonna do all those things that we're told we, quote, unquote, are supposed to do and be. And I think we, Leah, and I, and the rest of of our team work very hard to create space for us to put all that aside. And to remember that we are human beings first, you know, where we come from all different places. We represent all different types of stories across generations, and we want spouses to be able to feel like they are safe to say, whatever is on their heart and needs to be said. Yeah,

Jen Amos 8:53

I love that. Leah, I imagine there are some thoughts you want to add as well.

Speaker 3 8:57

Gosh, Amy's always so good with her words. You know, as she was speaking, I was just thinking about how we do live these really forward facing lives, especially in different times, you know, and most of it that's based on our spouse's position at the time, you know, whether they're in a leadership position, and you're supposed to be right before I've met Amy, and I don't know that we've ever talked about this Amy and related it but right before I met Amy, my husband was going into battalion command. And that's when Amy and I met was both of our husbands were together in that position. And I was getting advice from spouses who had walked this before me and one woman and her husband both told me, You can't let anybody in. You have to always be on your guard. You have to, you know, don't tell that story that you just told about your family upbringing, that piece that was hard, don't tell that people will be looking for stuff to use against you and it was this advice. So counter to like the core of who I am. I'm like, it is literally impossible for me to just I don't do on authentic, I can't do it. It's just a part of my makeup. So I get to the battalion and I'm ready and engaged, excited to mentor these younger spouses. And it's, it's truly my love to build community and to that mentorship piece is really important to me. And I get there. And I think I lasted about 20 minutes of the first event where I was like, No, everything's fabulous. I've got it all together, my children are, my marriage is perfect. And then I was like, Wait, you guys were in Alaska. And this is really hard. It's anyone else literally dying. And they were all like, Thank God, we are all literally dying. And so it was this moment that and then, you know, the next two years went on, and he was in that position. And when we left Alaska, my last night with those women and spouses, you know, I mean, that was the conversation. That's why I told them, I said, thank you guys for, like welcoming me in that authentic way. And so it was during that time that I met Amy. And we both realized that she and I both had this intense desire for true community that was based around authenticity. And that's really what built up the veteran spouse project. And we had spouses during that time, because our husbands were both in these forward facing positions. And we were in these, you know, living these forward facing lives. But we were also putting this thing into the world that told the hard stories and told the beautiful, heartbreaking truths of this lifestyle. And I mean, Amy, you remember how many spouses that were so much younger came up to us and said, We have never, ever seen somebody in your position speak. So honestly, thank you. I thought that I was doing it right. You get I thought I was doing it wrong. I thought that there was something the matter with me. And that just really solidified my belief that we do ourselves as military spouses a true disservice by continuing to put on a fake base. And I'm not talking about dwelling and wallowing. But I'm also not talking about that fake. Everything's right. And good. And okay, because it can't always be so it's true. I love these moments in our small virtual classes where we all connect and true authenticity comes out. And people say, I've never been able to tell anybody this before. But I feel safe doing that here and now and burdens are lifted. And I mean, I don't think I am over speaking when I say lives are changed.

Yeah, I mean, it's so beautiful to be a part of it. And like Leah said, to walk alongside younger spouses who are like, Oh, this is hard for you, too. And I'm like,

yeah. Oh, my disaster over here.

Like, and then the flip side of that is I'm working on a project right now with a woman Jeanne Puckett whose husband, Ralph Puckett just received the Medal of Honor. He's the most decorated US Army soldier in history. She, we're working through her story, and she just shared a moment with me when Ralph left for Vietnam that like, was so real and honest. And just like it blasted me wide open. And I was just like, Jeanne, this is giving me so much comfort, right to know that, like, it's hard, it's hard in 1968, it's hard and 22,007. And it's hard now for brand new spouses who are watching, right, it's, it's hard, and it's okay to say that. So I do love it, and love what we do.

You do too.

Yeah. And I think that the reason why people can open up is like you both emphasizing is you create that safe space, you do everything in your power to make sure people feel like they can open up genuine, I imagine you have some thoughts, so that we just want to check in with you.

Oh, so many thoughts. Fortunately, they're no longer leaking down my face. Or as they were both sharing No, I just what came to mind when Leah was talking about, you know, the spouse that recommended she not be open and everything was fine was this analogy, I think one of the pastors that our church in California gave us and it was about, like, level of friendship being akin to a house and there are some friends like you, like come hang out on the porch, and they're gonna know a little bit and there's some friends like that come sit in your den, and they get to know a little bit more. And then there's your very close inner circle that like gets to come into your bedroom, like, you know, and it's levels of intimacy. And that is the thing when I think about my life as a military spouse, and the mentorship I received, I know full well that the more senior spouses who mentored me when my husband was the baby Ensign on an aircraft carrier, like that I'm not in their inner circle, we were not living the same stage of life, you know, and also, they never made me feel other or that it was different. And I think that that is something, you know, I've definitely tried to keep in mind as I have become more seasoned and identify myself as a seasoned spouse, you know, is that there are those people you can go really deep with. And that circle probably should be a little smaller than the internet. But there are, you know, there's a certain level of authenticity you can bring to almost everything, whether it's a stranger for coffee, or you know, the group of Your Family Readiness Group that you see on a regular basis. I mean, this is part of the reason I really wanted to bring veteran spouse project back on because I so deeply appreciate their mission because it is so aligned with the way that I tried to live.

Yeah, and I think this is why I love to continue to be involved with the military community is just that rawness, that spirit of hospitality and authenticity and openness. You know, and I was thinking about, you're talking about Leah, how that spouse told you to basically, you know, be stoic and act a certain way, don't say certain things. And I think about my mom having been a foreign spouse. And, you know, unfortunately, I had learned to kind of have a vindictive perspective toward people to think that the world was unsafe. And it's really only now in the recent years, especially living in Virginia and experiencing the southern hospitality here, you know, where it's like, oh, like, it is safe to open up about things it is safe to, like, I don't have to, you know, keep my head down. When I walk past someone, I can actually give people eye contact. And, you know, in a way, like hearing you all talk about this, it just affirms that the world can be a safe space, you just have to find the people willing to create that space for you. So just thank you. Thank you both for just the work that you're doing and genuine. Thank you for talking through that.

You're welcome.

Yeah, Leah, it's your first time on our show. But either way, you know, you are in an interesting stage of your life. Right now, as a military spouse, you're talking about the closeness and everything you've been experiencing with veteran spouse project alone. But you and her husband are coming to a close with your military life. So tell us a little bit about that. And where your headspace is right now.

Gosh, it is literally all over the map I go through. I mean, on a single mile dog walk alone, I'll go, no, don't ever get out of the army. I love this so much. I literally don't want to do anything else. And then we're over an hour later. I'm like, if he doesn't get out tomorrow, I'm getting in the car and I'm driving away. It's dope. I can't do this anymore. And I don't think I'm alone in that just like frenetic feeling. So we're here at West Point, it's a two year job, one of his wildest dreams come true. He's so happy and professionally fulfilled here. It's where he started. He's a grad grad. So it's kind of what it's like this beautiful serendipitous coming full circle. And it's really honestly the perfect off ramp. He has been in for 20, I think four years. And the entire time he's been with combat units. So there has never been the knee or the breather. It's been deployment on demand after training after, you know, it's just been a wild 24 years. And so as we get here, and we begin to unwind, it's a lot of terrifying feelings. Amy and I were actually talking last week, because I was like, I feel like an elephant is just sitting on my chest like, I just can't seem to catch a breath. And as we just began to unravel kind of where that stress might be coming from. I identified a fear that I can only describe as like for the past 20 years. And I think a lot of military spouses might be able to feel like this, or might be able to identify with this. I feel like I've been hanging on to his coattails so much identity is wrapped up. And like when my husband's a West Point grad and my husband's deployed or my husband is doing this. And you know, I've been able to really create an identity for myself and the veteran spouse project has been a big part of that. And prior to that, I've done a decent job, but still so much of that centers around who he is. And our plan is to retire. And we're going to move to Alaska, because we it was a place that we fell in love with in all of the moves that we've done. And so we're going to try it. And if it doesn't work out, we'll come back. It's we know how to move. But I told Amy last week, I feel like for 20 years, I've been riding his coattails. And in two years, he's going to shake his coat off, he's going to shed it and I'm going to still be clinging to the coattails because I don't know who I am necessarily without identifying with the military community via hand. And I don't know how to do that yet. So I think that's going to be something big to work out. You know, you spend this 20 years where you are are important in some ways you matter to people people seek you out for mentorship, especially as we become more seasoned. You know, because of his job, we, you know, we are in these forward facing positions where it feels like we're needed. And we're going to leave here and nobody's going to need us or care. And that's just it. I don't know, I don't say that in like a Debbie Downer way. Just think it's a very honest asportation. And I think Amy could even speak to that, because they did something very similar. They he went from a really high profile kind of door facing job to Oak Ridge, Tennessee, right. And there's this transition of like, but now what so I don't, I don't know, I've been so out here at West Point. For these two years, I've committed to really exploring what it looks like my kids are now all a little bit older. My youngest is in second grade, they're not much older, but they're still a little they need be less, which that's another identity that feels like it's been stripped away that I'm having a lot of feelings about. But I'm exploring what it looks like to try out being alone a little bit more often. Or maybe I'm doing things that are not for other people as much that seeking wisdom really helped me kind of the book club we just finished helped me kind of work through some of that and realize that it's not selfish to want to figure out the things that make you feel joy, rather than what others may need or expect from you. So that's kind of this, I think it'll be my 18 month undoing or figuring out what that looks like.

And even like, I think if if I'm okay to, you know, ask for things like identifying what I want was a big thing for me when Jamie retired, like Jamie kind of decided he was going to retire and I was a little like, wait, what? You're gonna wait, what? And I always felt a little behind? Like, he was like, No, I'm gonna retire. Oh, I think I'm gonna take this job, right? It'll be great. And I was like,

will it be great? What are we doing?

I don't like wait. And then you know, we get here and he transitioned and retired. And then all of a sudden it was like, okay, when the moving, the non stop moving and resettling stops, and all of a sudden, my kids are in the same schools and his job, he works in nuclear security. So his job is actually like, super top secret, like, I will never see his office, I will never go to an office party, like we will complete opposite from military life. And so all of a sudden, I was like, I don't even know that I remember what I like, like, what do I want to I like to what do I want to do? Like, it was really, in some way sad for me, like I had to go through a mourning of like, wow, I don't, I've been so disconnected from my own heart's desire for so long, because I had to be right to survive and to take care of the kids and to keep us moving and that I don't even know anymore. And then also excited to think that oh my gosh, we're gonna be in a place where I can decide who and how and what I want to be and do. And so

what I thought was so interesting watching Amy walk through that a couple years ago was and we joked when we met because when Amy and I met it was like, fireworks and volcanoes. We were like, Where have you been all my life? You are now literally, like, I'm straight to the bedroom intimacy like your, your your what's your name again? Like it was really bizarre. Even our husbands

were like, This is our Wii and I was like, just don't worry about it. Listen, all the things you're you're not giving me on the deep end. I'm just gonna get from her. It's good.

Yes, would always joke like as military spouses, we go deep and we go fast. Like there is no other way you're gonna be here two years, you're gonna be here 18 months from your three years like, I'm gonna need my best friend that I walked with. I'm gonna need my friend I coffee with Buddy my friend at work out with and who's having wine with me. And we better find this out fast and quick and get her done. And I love that because I'm naturally inclined to do that. It doesn't I don't have to take a long time to warm up to somebody and, and Amy doesn't either. So it was just this perfect storm. But and I think a lot of military spouses are like that, too, to an extent. But when Amy when Jamie retired, I remember finding it so interesting when she would be like, No, I'm going to take it slowly with people because the flip of that is sometimes we make disastrous decisions when it comes to who we go deep and quick with and then we just get to leave. So we don't ever really have to sort out relationship issues at a deep level because we're like, oh, in six I can handle this for six months because we're just PCs saying it I've even told my kids that like oh, you don't like that girl your science class. That's cool. We got four months left, like just it'll go away. No, but you know, and I think this is all benefit from this advice that Amy just walked through is when she got to Tennessee, you're not going anywhere. So you've got to not be more choosy or closed off. Suggesting that at all, but just to be more are aware maybe, of who you're dragging up to the bedroom. I love that analogy Jedi lead.

That was, I don't know, I'm gonna use that all the time.

And it might be a slow invitation into the sitting room. But I just think that's such that, I think for me is going to be a huge, I'm just gonna have to be purposeful.

And it'll be a huge struggle for you.

That's funny, yeah, I'm just, I'm just taking everything that you're sharing Leah. And, you know, having been a military child for the first decade of my life. Like, it was very interesting that when we got settled in San Diego, even though we physically physically settled, I didn't mentally settle. I'm just taking everything that you're sharing. And it's interesting, because the first decade of my life, I grew up as a military child, and we moved every two to three years. And once we got settled in San Diego, although we physically settled, I didn't mentally settle. Even when we got to San Diego, I went to two different elementary schools. And then before I could catch my breath, I was already in middle school. And then before I could catch my breath, I was already in high school, and then I went to a second high school. And then that just kind of like, I just felt like there was this constant like having to start over. Anyway, I resonate with your story, because I'm in a headspace now, where I want to grow deeper roots, and I'm in my mid 30s, already, it's taken me 20 plus years to finally be like, Okay, I don't want to just pick up and go, I do want to stay somewhere. It's interesting, because now that we're in Norfolk, I have decided that I want to deepen my relationships. And you know, even with Jamie Lynn, we have been doing the show together for I believe, two plus years now. And even for us, we want to continue to like deepen our like working relationship, and even our personal relationship, especially after our experience at the Disney Institute's veteran Institute summit a couple of weeks ago now. And I say all this because that's a very vulnerable place, even for me to be in at this point in my mid 30s, be like, Okay, I'm willing to, like, see where a relationship can go even further, you know, like, not just like, okay, like, if this project fails, great, I could just start over and have different people to work with, and whatever. So I can resonate with your story, because being in that place of like, okay, like, we got to deal with issues now. You know, we got to like, if we're gonna deepen these relationships, part of it is dealing with conflict. And so I just appreciate you guys sharing that because I can really resonate that resonate with that story. Now being in this headspace where it's like, I want to deepen relationships. And part of that is working through conflict, part of that is having the harder conversations. And so yeah, I just wanted to add that before my voice echoes again. Genuine, any thoughts?

Oh, you know, I mean, we're still the handful years from transitioning out of the military, you know, who knows, we could be four by the books, or we could be another 14, who knows? It all depend. But the other thing that I think is an interesting transition, that a lot of us that are more seasoned are going through now is like, I've only ever been a spouse in post 911, like, my husband has served the entire time in post 911 conflict. And now, I mean, it's over and I say that as judiciously as I can, like, by the books, it is over quote, no one can see my air quotes, quote, unquote. And we are shifting to a different landscape of how we do things as a military. And you know, I am the lone Navy spouse on the podcast today, it's very different. Being a navy spouse we have warfare is very much shifting to a maritime area, because of the things happening in the world, all of the trade and all of the internet lies under the ocean. And so right now, that is where the protection is needed. And so we've gone from a ground focus, Navy support, to a navy focused everybody else support and it's a different thing, to have seen the end of one and be moving into another and still be involved. Because what does that mean that things that I knew before? are not the things happening now. I mean, my husband on another deployment currently, and it is not straight to the Arabian Sea launched jets into Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a very different deployment that is constantly shifting like the things we knew, again, air quotes at the beginning we're going to be the things are not the things three weeks into deployment. And so it's a different world and I find myself wondering how to mentor Well, in that shift because We're still in and then math, you'll still be in for at least four years, if not longer, you know, and how do we grow and change within that one for two decades, me my whole adult life, we were in this same conflict and my whole military spouse life, we were in the same conflict until we're not. And so it does take a level of awareness. And it takes a level of like, looking to people who have been through other things, I think, and I love like what VSP does with that multigenerational is so important to me and such an aspect that I love about the military life I've led, and then I hope to bring into, you know, the way that I mentor people coming up and the way that I am in the world, I mean, I will go on record and say that like 85% of the time, always have a mentor like it. Based on moves, I always look for new and but it's always someone much older than me, because I want, like I want what they have. And I want to learn how they live the life well, and not just military, but in general. And I think it's so helpful that like, Leah, you got to watch Amy do this and learn well, unlike now, you'll be able to take that into your next transition and go, Hey, this is what I loved about watching me. And these are the things that like, maybe don't fit me right now where I'm at. And I think that's I think that's great. And I think you both bring that, you know, to the table of VSP, which is really great.

Thank you. Yeah,

I mean, I think one of the things that we really do try to do through all of our programming at VSP is, you know, we're a storytelling organization. That is what we 100% pride ourselves on. And I'm a firm believer in everyone's story has equal weight, right? Because this 20 year old spouse can't help it. But she hasn't had these decades of experiences that you Jenny Lynn, a pattern I've had, but that doesn't make her any less anxious, afraid. Fearful. Right. And so I think it's important. And you know, it's even like the genie pockets, you know, when I say like, well call my husband didn't go to Vietnam. And she's like, Well, yeah, but I mean, Ralph only went once and look at how many times your husband has, right, and it's all like to be able to be like, No, it's not a who's had it harder, who's done. It's a just, everybody's story has equal value. And I think, you know, like you said, as you navigate this brand new environment that the military is walking into, you know, you're going to do it beautifully, because you're going to do it openly and honestly and authentically. And you're going to be able to say to those younger spouses, like Yeah, I'm not really sure either, but I'm here and you're here, and we'll figure it out. Right? And that, yeah, that's all you can do.

Well, the beautiful thing I think that you would bring to the table in the season spouse brings to the table, even in ever changing landscapes and ever changing ways of warfare is, you know, the 20 years of stumbling and getting back up and stumbling and getting back up. So what you do know is how to get back out to get back, you might not know what's gonna lead the next or what's gonna lead up to that, but you know, without a shadow of a doubt that you can get back up, and they can do and that's what I think I got the most from my mentors along the way is, you could strip away every single detail. And what I got was, you're gonna get backed up, and you're gonna do it together. You're never gonna do it alone. Because we don't ever, ever succeed alone.

I love that you said get back up and not be resilient. I know. All my theories on resilience, we don't need to rehash them on the 89th podcast, but I love that you said get back up and do it together. Yeah.

Good verbiage. Good verbiage.

Yeah. For all our listeners, you should have seen it looks on everyone's faces. When I said resilient. It was pretty it was great.

Not a fan, not a fan.

Yeah, thank you both for sharing just this heartfelt message about VSP. And like you said, Amy, you are a storytelling organization. Speaking of which, I do want to get into one of the latest programs you've been offering this year, called Heart to script. And you know, based on the performances I have already seen for the past for the past group or cohort. I'm not sure how you describe it program. The heart to script is very heartfelt. So tell us a little bit about this program, and you know how spouses can get involved? Sure.

So we started offering a heart to script writing class back when we moved all of our offerings, all of our classes online at And it really just stemmed from I mean, I am a playwright like I write plays, I'm, I don't necessarily build myself as a writer, I definitely think and write in terms of plays and dialogue and creating relationships and conversations and telling stories that audiences are going to see and hopefully be impacted by so I was like, Why feel comfortable offering this particular writing class that would kind of talk about how to tell your spouse story as a monologue, which I think most everyone knows a monologue is an actor on stage by themselves. I'm just kind of giving a little peek into what's happening in that particular character's life and that moment. So we kind of started with that. And then it just really, it really, really resonated with people. I think the ability to kind of I work very hard through writing prompts into the class to kind of help spouses take this big picture, military spouse story, and help them maybe focus in on you know, what were some of those defining moments, you know, hard or beautiful, or bittersweet or whatever those were, that you kind of circle back to in your own story? And why do you circle back to those? And what do you actually feel about those, and, you know, and the stuff that just came out of spouses was, I can't even it's so beautiful and authentic and raw. And I love everything about it. And so we ended up connecting some of those military spouse monologue writers with professional actors who helped us workshop those pieces into performances that we recorded for a fundraiser we did last year. And that was kind of where we landed. We were like, that was amazing. What an amazing experience. And then Leon, I decided we would apply for a National Endowment for the Arts grant, because I don't know, it seems like a thing we would never get anyway. So why not try it?

The conversations leading up to that were funny, but yeah, so

we did really just like, oh, it'd be good practice. It's good grant writing, they asked for all of these very elaborate, okay. And then, joke's on us, they totally loved the project and gave us the grant. That's awesome. So what that means for us now is we're about to kick off an 18 month part to script true project, we're calling it the monologue series. But I'll teach three hard to script classes and spouses will be able to sign up through that one will start this fall, there'll be another one in the winter, and another one in the spring, spouses can sign up. And you know, the important piece is just creating safe space to share your story. But out of that class will inevitably come some really, really powerful stories. And then we will take those and there'll be a part of an advanced writing group where we will work at kind of curating and editing those into an actual performance piece. And then we'll workshop that piece with professional actors. And then that will lead in November of 2023, to a reading of the piece. And, you know, I don't know yet if it will be a full play. I mean, Leah always is so patient with me when I'm like, Well, I don't know what it is, because we're still making it.

She's like, it's a fun conversation with donors. You're, like, really know what it's gonna be. But we need some money. You love our mission? Oh, good.

I mean, she's like, but I need to know what it is. And I'm like, Well, I can't tell you. And she's like, Amy, and I'm like,

I know. So sorry. You're frustrated. But you have to let the story tell itself. And she's like, I'm gonna poke my eye out and

your best friend?

Yeah. But you said earlier. But what we do know is in November of 2023, we will stage a reading of the piece in front of an audience and have a talkback, where we hope that audiences and civilians will come and see hear these stories, help humanize the American servicemembers and their families and then open up a conversation about ways that civilians can work to empathize and relate and help you know, military military families in their own communities.

So fun.

Yeah, very excited. And I think like even though you don't have like the concrete details as to how things lay out, or will lay out you have the objective, you know, you know, what you want to accomplish? And I appreciate that because I very much like Scott and I and my husband like we very much have a built as you go mentality as well. And even even gentleman and I, we're having a pre interview with the upcoming or with the guest, hopefully we get them on the calendar, but they were asking us specifically like, oh, how often do you publish or how many episodes you know, how many seasons do you do? And we're like, Well, it kind of depends on how we're doing, how we're feeling how life takes over, you know, and, and so I just really love that you know, the intention and the objectives are there and considering your streak of having, you know, produce so many programs and workshops and everything, I know it's going to be great, I have faith that it's going to turn out to be something amazing. Although I know Lea, you probably would prefer to have more concrete details,

right? I am very passionate about matching money with mission. So it is not hard for me to get it. Because I'm so passionate about our mission, it's not hard for me to sell people on our mission. So we joke about it. But ultimately, the program is going to be so exciting because it blends to two of the main columns of our mission, which are creating safe space and healing through arts for military spouses, and building bridges and communities. And since we, we have a play, I will wait that we were producing and that's kind of on the backburner now, for a lot of different reasons. So it's exciting for me to come back into that space of getting like I'm a community builder by nature. So to be able to now we have a mission where not only are we supporting spouses and creating the space for healing, because everybody listening knows whether they admit it or not that telling your story, getting it down on paper, getting it out through art, getting it out in the world, in some way is mystically healing. And there is something the theater people out there know that there is something so beautiful about seeing your story on stage. And for those of us who see other people's stories on stage, we know that there's so much deepening and stretching that happens when we see stories of people that are nothing like us, like it theater is just this world that brings everyone together. And I am so excited to be able to do all of those things in one program. So I'm over the moon about it. I mean, I when she started to lay out her vision for this, and then when we did the monologues for the ball, it was so amazing to see and you know, and then to hear those facets who had participated in her script whose monologues then became recorded by professional actors. Like there's something powerful in that really, really powerful and it's cathartic. And it's healing. And it's, you know, it's almost indescribable. So.

And I think too, there is something to be said, you know, I had several civilian family members or friends in the audience's of I will wait and other theatrical things we've done who were like, that was hard to watch. Like that was hard to hear. Like that was and I get out a little bit. And I was like, Oh, was it? Was it hard? Well, yeah, it's so hard to live it. So I do think it's important for you to understand American public, what it means when you send servicemembers to war, or just in general, what the families are left holding. And I'm sorry that it's hard for you, but it's important for you to hear it. So sit back down, and we're gonna keep going. And you know, I think there's just there's so much value, like Leah said, in seeing your story. Yeah. Shared. Yeah.

Well, in the community, it brings I mean, I've found through publishing, writing, that is written, from my perspective, mostly as a military spouse here lately. Like just how many people are like, Hey, I've never lived through whatever the thing is, I'm talking about, but I've felt anxious, annoyed, scared, from you know, how, really all of the emotions are very universal. And that telling that story is helpful. And I think the other thing it does is it humanizes us in a way which sometimes we are not in jet and I've talked about this a lot how she's been on the Marvel Universe kick lately and like, everybody, you know, that's military affiliated is a hero like a superhero, but they don't show any family members. Which one doesn't humanize the service member? And for sure, does it humanize like what's actually going on in their real lives like a military is a part of their lives, but they are like whole, real people with families and houses and yards to cut and you know, all of these things that people a lot of time forget when they're saying thank you for your service. Like they forget that all of the rest of this is like, we live all the rest of the real life to not just the like, going to war. And I love that you guys are putting it you know, on a stage and on film because I think my one biggest disappointment with the entertainment industry is how military spouses have been portrayed. This is so bucks I could talk about for the next hour and a half. I mean, girl. Yeah. Yeah, not It's not favorable. It's not great. And even though even the ones that I tell you my biggest disappointment was watching American Sniper, because all of the press around, it was like we show the military family story. And I thought that was a hell of a lot of sand to be a military family story. Like that was a lot of Iraq. And then like, the parts that were the family story, when we lived in a non military area at the time, like, we left the movie, and I was so pissed. And my husband was like, what is happening? And I was like, they went on the Today Show and talked about, you know, how the family had home was, and I was like, Do you know what everybody asked me after that movie? So in Matthew was in Afghanistan, did he get to call you from the sat phone? No, no, no. Did not, you know, why not? would have given away his location. Like, No, we didn't. On the set, and page jewelers and your little necklace thing for Valentine's Day where they're VTC being on an aircraft carrier. Now the thing? Or do you know Matthew never once VTCs me from an aircraft here and set up by the United States Navy. There's no bandwidth. And so it's all of these things that are like, Oh, look at them. Are they precious? Like how sweet and you're like, that is literally not our life?

Nope, at all. Now.

Like you've a lot to get out genuine

sister, saying, you know, and I think it's, it's exactly what you said, it's this idea of just, you know, I oftentimes have thought like, there's some judgment of like, well, your husband's like a robot to that United States government. And I'm like,

Ah,

like, let's look at the full picture of what Jamie Updegraff brings to an apt not that, right, like, so it's important to understand, like, they have their own personal struggles we have, there were plenty of times he was going to do things that I was like, for the record. I'm not voting for this. This is No. And he's like, I know, right? Like, there's all those conversations where you were just like every other American family. And I think you're right, they want us to be this certain look. And, you know, all of us and I say this, in the end, I will wait, you know, we're all staying. They want to envision us shining our American flag pins, and making our welcome home banners. And sure I've, I've made the banners, but you know, you're missing the epic fights that are happening, you know, or me dropping them off being like, Okay, I just go need you to go because I can't drop you off here. 17 more times. And

this better not break down again, or Yeah. All the I mean, I had a four year old on, I don't know, what are two deployments ago, and how many nights I had to assure that sweet baby, that her daddy was still alive. Like, these are the things like Right, like, you just don't? They're not showing that or that's not what, yeah, you know, people are talking about but yeah, while they're out there doing all these amazing, heroic, wonderful things, there is an entire life being lived back home that looks similar in a lot of ways to anybody else's life. Right. There's the school fights, the homework, running the you know, it looks but it's all done with the backdrop. Yep, of wool. Yeah. And that adds quite a bit to the story. And even

I mean, and I know, we all can share these experiences. But even on my husband's last deployment, you know, he had a soldier that was still in the states who committed suicide. And so, you know, my husband's call is sure to all the people within his chain of command, but it's to me to say any, a, I'm gonna need you to, and boom, boom, boom, right? And that's not that there's no job description for that. There's no checklist for me. Now, you're, and what are you going to do? He's half a world away, he can't come home, he can't take care of those families and those things. And he knows as well as I do, that the United States Army isn't going to take care of them in the same way that another family is going to take care of them. So what do you do you take care of them? Like, and that's the part where I'm like, you know, we're real families and real community, oftentimes doing very hard things, like you said, with the backdrop of war, and, you know, and still taking our kids to school and, you know, going to baseball practice.

Yes. And I believe that if military spouses want to be able to tell this story more effectively, that's why you have heart to script. Yeah, come sign on just the Yeah, I'm just really excited. I mean, I commend you both for this work that you're doing to help articulate this life, you know, Hmm, one thing that I was working on with Jenny Lynn and a bunch of other people when we were at the Veterans, what would you call it again? Veterans title Institute's.

I'm gonna email Disney and be like, Guys, maybe, let's just like get it down there. I mean, you guys, and everything like surely.

So it was interesting, because the panel that we did, it was the first Military Spouse Employment panel that they were going to offer for the veterans Institute Summit, even though this veteran Institute's summit has been going on for about a decade now. And I remember it was incredibly important for me as the moderator to build a bridge between the employers and the CEOs, you know, the business owners who were in the audience, to understand the panelists that we were about to interview. And I remember, it was the most important thing for me to craft that opening statement, that opening story. And I had learned, you know, thanks to Jenny Lynn. And basically, the entire Disney team like i They're just so helpful. I just was very emotional Tribbles, like, Everyone here is so helpful. Yeah. But anyway, you know, part of what I learned to articulate is that is saying, like, you know, imagine that, you know, think about someone you care a lot about. And you know, maybe they have big dreams, and imagine that their big dream is to have a fulfilling and purposeful career. And now imagine this, the reason they can't fulfill that career is because of your career. So this is what active duty service members deal with all the time, when they have to talk to their spouse and say, Honey, we need to move again. And so to be able to even just say those few sentences, and I remember like, you know, like I said, running it by Jenny Lynn and my husband and like, everyone, they're like, Okay, that's good. Like, that's a good opening. I think it's good. I hope you guys think

I'm right here like, yeah, hey, pick me. That's me.

Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I love that, you know, the work that you both continue to do is to help build that bridge, through the way you communicate and how you present a story. It is an art form, you know, the fact that, you know, that first opening statement, for me, it was probably an easy, 3045 seconds, but it took so long to get to that. And so I know that, you know, in the last part to script program, I was watching the spouses telling their story. And like, you know, maybe less than four minutes, three and a half minutes, maybe. But like, I imagine that it took such a long time for them to get to that point to be able to tell such a compelling story in three to half minutes. So just kudos to you guys and the team that you have to really help spouses tell their story. And I hope that we continue to inspire spouses in our military community, for that matter, to articulate our stories a lot better for the public

100%. And I say it all the time, but to encourage spouses to take a seat at the table, like we've earned a seat at the table. So pull up your chair, scooch apart, whoever you gotta scoot apart, and take ownership of your seat at the table, and know that you have an equal voice there. And again, we never try to take away what our service members are doing. We understand there's a very clear difference. But we've also earned our chance to tell our stories.

Yeah, I love it. Well, we've taken up too much of your time. And Daniel and I do have a meeting in 10 minutes. So let me go ahead and ask you both. Any any final thoughts that you feel like hasn't been shared yet? As we close out today, Leah,

I wonder if you could direct people somehow to our YouTube channel, because we did talk a lot about those stories. And you can find them on our YouTube channel. So perfect. Yes, sir. People go to that. And I don't know if in your blurb, the sign up will open up in a couple of weeks on our website for heart to script and our fall classes. Amy, when are those going to be open? Do you know

we're actually going to launch next week? That's perfect. Yeah, just

basically like this week, the time this episode is public. Yeah.

Yes, that's right. This will run the end of October. Hard to script. It's a class that goes for three weeks because you kind of have to help the spouse like you talked about, like, they come in with this big store. And we're like, Okay, now we're gonna get that down to three minutes in. And easy peasy. Yeah. And I've learned over the years, you know, if you're not well versed in the ability to kind of right in the moment and that now it's it's definitely something that takes some spouses sometimes to be like, wait, what? And I'm like, No, but they get there and it's so beautiful. Yeah,

absolutely. Well, I do know that if people want to learn more about you, your website is veterans, spouse project.org. So veterans as in plural veteran spouse project.org. And in addition to the YouTube which we will provide in the show notes as well, but is there any other way you would like for people to contact you if they wanted to reach out?

I mean, I think social media or the website is perfect. We were gonna say, Amy Yeah,

I was gonna say absolutely social media, the website. And you know, if you are somebody who has a heart for the arts, and a heart for the military, we are really one of the only organizations in the country with those shared missions. So I know Leah mentioned, this grant we received from the NEA is a matching grant, we are looking to raise money to match it. So if you are part of, yeah, 10,000 logically exact. If you are part of a company, or just you know, are somebody with with the ability to help help us reach that goal, I may not be able to tell you exactly what it's going to be, but that it's going to be incredibly dynamic and moving.

There you go. So that made me love it. Well, Amy and Leah, it was such an absolute pleasure having you on our show. And of course, Amy, thank you for coming back to our listeners. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation we will have Amy and Leah's information to learn more about the veterans spouse project as well as the heart to script program. We'll have that in the show notes for you. And that's it. We're gonna head out now. So thank you all so much for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.