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#003 Johannes Kettelhodt - Europe's Number 1 Sauna
Episode 3 • 22nd May 2024 • vP life • vitalityPRO
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#003 Johannes Kettelhodt - Europe's Number 1 Sauna

Johannes Kettelhodt is the CEO and Co-Founder of Clearlight Saunas International, where he leads a global team of around 40 like-minded people who share a common vision: to deliver wellness solutions to one billion households, aimed at improving and extending lifespan.

With a bachelor's degree in Engineering, Johannes has a strong background in developing and implementing sustainable and efficient technologies that enhance health and well-being. For the past 9 years, he has been at the head of Clearlight Saunas International, managing the holding company with a focus on growth and innovation. Under his leadership, the company has become an 8-figure business operating in more than 7 countries, committed to enhancing the quality of life and lifespan of people around the world.

Johannes is dedicated to utilising the latest research to develop and market world-class products that are high-quality, science-backed, and effective. 


> During our discussion, you’ll discover:


(00:03:32) - How Johannes got into the sauna space

(00:05:57) - The difference between infrared saunas and other types of saunas

(00:10:57) - EMF and ELF, what they are and why they matter

(00:17:42) - Why Clearlight started using red light therapy panels in their saunas

(00:23:09) - The specific benefits and use cases of Sauna

(00:27:07) - Lipolysis, what it is and how saunas start to liberate toxins from the body.

(00:28:22) - The famous Niacin Detox protocol and why it’s so effective

(00:33:03) - How sauna use can help with pain management issues

(00:39:24) - Where to find Clearlight and Johannes


The vP life Podcast is brought to you by vitalityPRO, a supplement company based in the UK that provides you with the latest in health, anti-ageing and longevity supplementation. What makes vitalityPRO unique is that it third-party tests every product batch for quality, purity, heavy metals and other contaminants. vitalityPRO’s mission is simple: provide you with confidence in the quality and effectiveness of your longevity supplements that focus on restoring your cellular health.


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Transcripts

Rob:

Hello everybody and

Rob:

welcome to the vP life podcast

Rob:

brought to you by vitalityPRO.

Rob:

My name's Rob and I'll be your host on today's episode.

Rob:

Today we're sitting down with Johannes Kettelhodt from Clearlight Saunas.

Rob:

Johannes, an engineer by training, is the CEO and distributor of Clearlight

Rob:

in the UK, the EU and Australasia.

Rob:

Today's episode really covers everything you've likely ever wanted to know

Rob:

about sauna, and Johannes and I discuss what makes infrared saunas unique,

Rob:

why they're potentially a healthier option for you than traditional

Rob:

saunas, how they work in the body, the famous Niacin protocol for heavy

Rob:

metal detoxification, and so much more.

Rob:

As usual, all the links to this episode will be available in the show notes, which

Rob:

you can find in the description below.

Rob:

Then, I'd like to ask you a favor.

Rob:

Our little podcast is slowly gaining traction, and we'd love

Rob:

it if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Rob:

This will help us grow, reach more people and allow us to host future guests.

Rob:

And with that, on with the show.

Rob:

Hi, Johannes.

Rob:

Thanks for joining us today.

Rob:

Well, this is going to be a podcast, obviously about sauna.

Rob:

Would you care to introduce yourself quickly?

Rob:

Just tell us a bit about Clearlight and your backstory.

Johannes:

Sure.

Johannes:

Uh, thanks for having me, Rob.

Johannes:

Uh, G'day everyone.

Johannes:

My name's Johannes.

Johannes:

I'm one of the two CEOs of

Johannes:

Clearlight Saunas International.

Johannes:

Um, Yeah, as the name indicates, uh, Clearlight Saunas is a sauna brand.

Johannes:

It's not any traditional one, but it's an infrared sauna brand.

Johannes:

Been around for approximately 25 years.

Johannes:

And I think I've really taken, uh, the biohacking health community in a storm.

Johannes:

Um, you know, some of our.

Johannes:

Ambassadors or, um, spokespeople are the likes of Ben Greenfield, Dr.

Johannes:

Josh Axe, and a few other international athletes and medical doctors.

Johannes:

And I think the true reason on why Clearlight really championed the

Johannes:

infrared sauna popularity in that health and wellness space is the fact that

Johannes:

they come with an outstanding quality or a build of outstanding quality.

Johannes:

And we issue a lifetime warranty, um, from a health perspective,

Johannes:

it's a true low EMF and ELF sauna.

Johannes:

I'm sure we'll dive deeper into what exactly that means.

Johannes:

And we use Medical grade heaters that we sort of invented ourselves to really

Johannes:

raise the core temperature effectively.

Johannes:

For those who don't know an infrared sauna.

Johannes:

Um, works using infrared heating panels as opposed to hot air.

Johannes:

Um, and I'm sure we'll sort of dive into the mechanics, um, off that a

Johannes:

little bit further down the track.

Johannes:

Um, my background is, uh, engineering.

Johannes:

So I sort of didn't really, you know, didn't wake up one day or had the

Johannes:

vision to actually become a wellness entrepreneur, but, um, instead,

Johannes:

uh, yeah, I'd really enjoy it, uh, breaking down complex topics around

Johannes:

technology, um, into day to day

Johannes:

. Bites for people to apply.

Johannes:

Always been fairly health conscious, ran a marathon, did

Johannes:

elite sports at a very young age.

Johannes:

And actually realized quite quickly that, you know, if I look after my temple,

Johannes:

my body, my soul world, and I tend to have more energy on the output level.

Johannes:

Um, and that sort of all, you know, led to, I think me being open, uh, around

Johannes:

opportunities and health and wellness.

Johannes:

And then when I was 23, we sort of jumped on and, um, yeah, sort of

Johannes:

internationalized Clearlight and, um,

Johannes:

now we're sort of working on another brand.

Johannes:

For a few different products.

Johannes:

Um, but ultimately that's my, uh, brief story.

Rob:

What about sauna specifically attracted you to

Rob:

it as a health entrepreneur?

Rob:

Obviously you, you could have gone down the, uh, the sort of the cold, the

Rob:

cold route, you could have, uh, gone down the red light route specifically.

Rob:

What was it about sauna that really attracted you to it?

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

It's a good question.

Johannes:

I mean, I think we can all agree that saunas over the last

Johannes:

specifically five years, uh, have gained a lot of popularity.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

You know, I think COVID definitely accelerated that and, and I feel

Johannes:

very similar fashion, uh, or trend happening with cold plunges at

Johannes:

the moment, or in general, like, you know, cold water exposure.

Johannes:

But when we started, this was the year 2013, like, you know,

Johannes:

I barely knew infrared saunas.

Johannes:

I only knew saunas from my childhood and I was born and raised in Germany.

Johannes:

Uh, there's a very strong sauna culture, not to be compared with

Johannes:

Finland, but it's definitely, it's probably second or third, uh, you know,

Johannes:

rank when it comes to sauna culture.

Johannes:

So as kids, we used to go out on weekends or even, you know, sometimes during

Johannes:

the week as the whole family into like a public sauna space, we'd, you know,

Johannes:

take a few different sauna sessions.

Johannes:

So, you know, I personally, Really got used to heat

Johannes:

mechanisms at a very young age.

Johannes:

Um, and I think then when I sort of saw this opportunity, I was like,

Johannes:

well, you know, let's actually look a little bit deeper into, you know,

Johannes:

what are the mechanistic, well, what mechanisms are there for soreness?

Johannes:

Um, and it literally was a whole different universe that opened up.

Johannes:

Um, you know, back then, yeah, there was little evidence around it, but, you know,

Johannes:

we kind of saw the first studies and the first, um, endorsements come through.

Johannes:

Uh, and that's essentially what we said, well, you know, this is a great product.

Johannes:

Uh, it's a great driver for longevity and heat and specifically

Johannes:

in the infrared sauna field.

Johannes:

There were hardly any companies that had really gone internationally, uh, and

Johannes:

that really had a very strong promise.

Johannes:

Around health, you know, that was actually the time when infrared

Johannes:

saunas per se were really high in EMF.

Johannes:

The industry didn't know better.

Johannes:

There were a ton of different old clunky, very hot heaters around that actually made

Johannes:

it very uncomfortable to stay in at times.

Johannes:

But I think Clearlight really had pioneered low EMF technology.

Johannes:

And we were like, holy, holy hell, like this is a gem.

Johannes:

Like, you know, the world needs to hear about this.

Johannes:

Um, so I think it's a mixture of, you know, being at the right time

Johannes:

at the, at the right location, and I think having that cultural heritage

Johannes:

around saunas and heat exposure.

Rob:

Fair enough.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

Um, you've mentioned infrared and, uh, EMF and ELF, uh, a few times now.

Rob:

Um, what is, what, what defines an infrared sauna?

Rob:

I mean, as you know, the work Rhonda Patrick's done specifically around saunas,

Rob:

uh, where she sort of seems to sort of, Be more interested in dry saunas,

Rob:

mainly for the increased heat output.

Rob:

Um, but what makes an infrared and an infrared sauna and sort of how

Rob:

does it benefit, um, not benefit, how does it compare to say a dry sauna

Rob:

or your more traditional steam room?

Johannes:

Yeah, I mean, I think to really understand it, I think we have to quickly

Johannes:

recap on what a traditional sauna is.

Johannes:

A traditional sauna, uh, you know, has been around for centuries

Johannes:

and utilizes hot air, uh, as a primary mechanism, um, of heat.

Johannes:

So typically you would have one, uh, stove and a sauna, uh, and you

Johannes:

know, over time you would achieve air temperatures of say 60, 70, degrees,

Johannes:

depending on how hot you like it.

Johannes:

And you'd have an outburst.

Johannes:

Which is, you know, literally put hot water on the stone and you, you know,

Johannes:

that would essentially create, uh, steam.

Johannes:

Um, and yeah, it would be cranking hot.

Johannes:

Uh, you would do two or three rounds, you know, five to 20 minutes, sometimes

Johannes:

even 25, which I find unimaginable.

Johannes:

It's just so freaking hot.

Johannes:

And, you know, that you, you know, I mean, in between you take time, you

Johannes:

know, down times, you take a cold shower, and then you just literally relax.

Johannes:

And, you know, the whole protocol, if you do it properly, probably

Johannes:

takes you two or three hours.

Johannes:

And it's, I genuinely think it's one of the best feelings in the world coming out

Johannes:

of two or three rounds of steam sauna.

Johannes:

And I think the reason why Rhonda Patrick, um, and you know, some of the

Johannes:

other health professionals, um, are very fond of traditional saunas is that

Johannes:

they've been around for much longer and therefore have been studied a lot more

Johannes:

in depth compared to infrared saunas.

Johannes:

Infrared has only been really invented, or has been identified, I think in the

Johannes:

1800s by Herschel, um, Um, and then in 1976 or something, I think they

Johannes:

created the first sort of infrared heater, um, which then actually made

Johannes:

up an infrared sauna for that on the, uh, for that on the time in Japan.

Johannes:

So this whole technology is only 40 years old, but the good thing

Johannes:

is that infrared can be found.

Johannes:

pretty much everywhere in nature.

Johannes:

So infrared is part of the invisible light spectrum.

Johannes:

It also refers to electromagnetic frequency or energy.

Johannes:

You have different types of infrared.

Johannes:

You have near, middle, and far infrared.

Johannes:

They all vary in terms of the wavelength or the spectrums, the

Johannes:

penetration depth into the skin, and some of the unique benefits.

Johannes:

But the bottom line is This light is being absorbed or it penetrates into

Johannes:

our skin over time, our core temperature goes up because obviously our body

Johannes:

needs to deal with that influx of heat.

Johannes:

Um, we start breaking a sweat, um, and then we literally

Johannes:

get a cardiovascular workout.

Johannes:

And so, you know, in terms of sweating and infrared, it's one actually

Johannes:

helps you as well to sweat profusely.

Johannes:

In fact, I would probably, And really intense and good infrared sauna.

Johannes:

If you do it for 45 to 50 minutes, it's going to help you sweat more

Johannes:

than a traditional sauna because you're staying in there for longer.

Johannes:

Right.

Johannes:

So I sort of spoke about these two or three rounds of a traditional

Johannes:

sauna and an infrared sauna, you do a minimum of 20 minutes, um, up to your

Johannes:

maximum of 45 or 50 minutes, if you can stand it, um, and our research

Johannes:

and other research has essentially shown that during this, uh, this Time.

Johannes:

Um, your core temperature can raise, um, for up to 1.

Johannes:

6 and 1.

Johannes:

5 degrees Celsius.

Johannes:

Which is 38.

Johannes:

4, 38.

Johannes:

5 degrees Celsius, depending on where you measure it.

Johannes:

So that is a proper fever.

Johannes:

Like if you woke up one day and you'd have 38.

Johannes:

5 core temperature, you would stay at home in bed because you realize your

Johannes:

body is sort of going through something and you need to, you know, you need to

Johannes:

take rest and, and an infrared sauna and heat stress in general helps us

Johannes:

go through a similar mechanism and.

Johannes:

Yeah, so therefore I do think they're alike in some ways, but obviously the way

Johannes:

that heat is generated, the way he uses solar is different, and the scientific

Johannes:

evidence is also much different.

Johannes:

Traditional saunas have been around for longer, they are better studied,

Johannes:

there are more studies on that.

Johannes:

But infrared saunas are catching up in terms of a popularity.

Johannes:

And I'd love to, you know, sort of shed some light on that as well down the track.

Johannes:

Um, but also in terms of medical and scientific research papers that are coming

Johannes:

out, there's a ton of benefits about them.

Johannes:

I've seen the first doctors and, and, you know, very active biohackers and

Johannes:

social media that are not just, um, sort of wellness gurus, but also, you know,

Johannes:

have a medical or scientific background.

Johannes:

Actually speaking up about the fact that they believe infrared saunas

Johannes:

are more superior than traditional.

Johannes:

I think all of that is yet to be determined because to my knowledge,

Johannes:

there's not a single study that has really compared whether one

Johannes:

or the other is more beneficial.

Rob:

So in a sense, infrared saunas are sort of heating the

Rob:

core almost as a microwave would, essentially, in a very rough sense.

Rob:

With a lot of, uh, cheaper infrared saunas, uh, you tend to see that

Rob:

they don't come with these warnings about, uh, these ideas of EMF and ELF.

Rob:

Can you sort of just touch on that briefly and why it's so important to

Rob:

have a infrared sauna that carries low EMF and low ELF, uh, ratings?

Johannes:

Yeah, 100%.

Johannes:

I think it's a very important topic.

Johannes:

EMF stands for Electromagnetic Frequencies.

Johannes:

ELF stands for Extremely Low Frequencies.

Johannes:

And then you have a different type of frequency, which we find in our day to day

Johannes:

lives, which is, uh, radio frequencies.

Johannes:

Uh, Bluetooth and wifi for those that are new to this topic, I'm sure you guys all

Johannes:

understand that sleeping on a wifi router wouldn't be beneficial for your health.

Johannes:

I mean, I'm sure everyone understands that these devices give off some sort

Johannes:

of frequency that carries information.

Johannes:

And there's a similar analogy when it comes to EMF and ELF.

Johannes:

Um, if you think about an electric occurrence, and that

Johannes:

could literally be your computer that you're charging right now.

Johannes:

There is electricity running through the cable into the device whenever we

Johannes:

have electricity from minus and plus or however you want to exchange these poles.

Johannes:

You have an invisible electromagnetic field building up

Johannes:

around the cable or wherever the electric current runs through.

Johannes:

The stronger the electricity consumption or the stronger the s in there are, the,

Johannes:

the stronger the electromagnetic field is.

Johannes:

So that's the, the, the bottom line.

Johannes:

You know, this is measured at millis.

Johannes:

You have another frequency that is called extremely low frequencies,

Johannes:

that's measured in volt per square centimeter or square meter, depending

Johannes:

on how you want to calculate it.

Johannes:

And again, it's a, it's an invisible field of electromagnetic frequencies

Johannes:

or energy sort of surrounding wherever electricity runs through.

Johannes:

And this has been studied extensively, particularly over the last 10 to 15 years.

Johannes:

And there's a lot of research and evidence coming out that High exposure

Johannes:

to these types of frequencies is potentially harmful for a human body.

Johannes:

Some of the, uh, health risks are around dementia, around,

Johannes:

uh, insomnia, around fatigue.

Johannes:

You mentioned brain fog, brain fog when we spoke yesterday.

Johannes:

I know for a fact that in Germany, um, electro or hyper, uh, electro

Johannes:

sensitivity is now actually Uh, consider a disease in Germany.

Johannes:

So if someone has actually had for years and an artificially high exposure

Johannes:

to these types of frequencies, they literally get brain fog and fright

Johannes:

and they feel dizzy and can't work.

Johannes:

And we see that on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

Now, you know, you might have heard about the potential, potentially harmful

Johannes:

benefits of airports, where if you have your phone, you know, on your, on your

Johannes:

ear for a long time, there are some scans that, and I think even the World Health

Johannes:

Organization has actually raised concerns about the, um, artificial exposure

Johannes:

of, uh, high concentrations of EMF.

Johannes:

In some situations, I think it's unavoidable.

Johannes:

We work in a public space, you know, there is naturally a higher exposure to

Johannes:

EMF, but this is particularly concerning when you speak about an infrared sauna.

Johannes:

Why an infrared sauna?

Johannes:

Because you have many different infrared heating elements built into the cabin.

Johannes:

It could be a cabin of two times two meters, or a meter by one meter, and you

Johannes:

have, say, 10 different heaters in there.

Johannes:

And each of these heaters It obviously needs to run with electricity.

Johannes:

So that's why you have a lot of EMF exposure fields around it and

Johannes:

particularly cheaper, but not only cheaper, even, you know, you find

Johannes:

some infrared sort of companies that actually don't know or don't care.

Johannes:

Um, EMF exposure particularly is an issue.

Johannes:

And if you think about the fact of why people might invest in an infrared

Johannes:

sauna, well, it's to obviously, you know.

Johannes:

Do something good for the health, you know, de stress, uh, help down,

Johannes:

help regulate the nervous system.

Johannes:

You know, maybe they have a health issue that they want to combat.

Johannes:

And obviously if you sit in this cabin and you're literally getting

Johannes:

fried by this EMF and ELF because the company didn't tell you, or you

Johannes:

didn't know, um, you might actually potentially be causing yourself more

Johannes:

harm, than actually doing good for you.

Johannes:

And that's why this topic is so important.

Johannes:

Um, and this is why I think, you know, we really tried to educate

Johannes:

on the different frequencies.

Johannes:

What could be done about it?

Johannes:

What is a typical threshold that you really need to ask the manufacturer on?

Johannes:

And yeah, it's, it's shocking because I'd probably say 90 percent of the

Johannes:

companies out there don't care.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

No, I've, I've just looked it up while you were, while you were speaking.

Rob:

It's now, uh, EMF is now considered a class to be, uh, carcinogen by

Rob:

the world health organization.

Rob:

Uh, so it is sort of gaining traction as to how the sort of non

Rob:

native, uh, frequencies are actually dangerous for the human body.

Rob:

Uh, mechanistically, uh, just coming from, from, from our side, uh, what they

Rob:

do is they seem to disrupt the cell quite a lot and they can actually damage a

Rob:

number of enzymes, including pop enzymes.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

Stop their function, which are involved in DNA repair and DNA replication.

Rob:

So, um, yeah, and I know Andrew Huberman has also talked about the dangers of EMF.

Rob:

Uh, although mentioned, although they were rat studies, um, high doses of

Rob:

these non native frequencies again around, uh, rat testicles resulted in.

Rob:

The rat's becoming basically hypergonadal, um, so that seems to be more related to

Rob:

the fact that it was directly heating up the testes and, um, damaging, uh,

Rob:

and damaging the testicles so that they weren't actually able to produce,

Rob:

uh, testosterone as well as sperm.

Rob:

But yeah, it would, it is, it could probably lead us to a whole

Rob:

conversation about grounding and I'm sure you've, you've, uh, absolutely.

Rob:

Yeah, you've looked at Clint Ober's work specifically around this, but

Rob:

yeah, human body does not need any more inflammation or any more dysregulated,

Rob:

uh, movement of calcium into cells.

Rob:

So yeah, it's especially important.

Rob:

And, uh, I think, well, I know that one way to mitigate that is to increase

Rob:

your, uh, magnesium, um, intake, um, high amounts of EMF exposure can.

Rob:

basically open gaseous calcium channels and allow excess calcium into the

Rob:

cell, which is an excitatory molecule and can create cellular damage.

Rob:

And basic biochemistry dictates that calcium and magnesium work in tandem.

Rob:

So the more magnesium you have, the less calcium within a cell you

Rob:

have, essentially, in a nutshell.

Rob:

So that's definitely one way around it, although it's just a

Rob:

patch and not really a solution.

Rob:

And it's arguably one of the, uh, The reasons why we as a society have

Rob:

such low magnesium levels, aside from the fact that there's just a dearth

Rob:

of magnesium in the food supply.

Rob:

Um, yeah, no, it's, it's incredibly important and not just something

Rob:

that should be obviously talked about just in the, In the realm of saunas,

Rob:

but yeah, I think that's perfect, uh, to wrap that point up there.

Rob:

I suppose the last thing I'd like to discuss with regards to

Rob:

clearlight specifically is just, is just the red light panels that

Rob:

you can buy as add on attachments.

Rob:

And would you sort of just like to quickly touch on that, uh, and why clearlight

Rob:

sort of offers this, this option?

Rob:

I think you're just about the only people in the industry who do.

Johannes:

Yeah, at least at an adequate output.

Johannes:

Um, yeah, I'd love to.

Johannes:

I mean, I think, you know, our vision has always been to create a space

Johannes:

that really allows, um, you know, healing or or sort of wellness benefits

Johannes:

to the, to the person using it.

Johannes:

And, you know, I think we can all observe, uh, with friends, family, or

Johannes:

ourselves that it feels like we have less and less time on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

You know, there's more and more work, responsibilities, uh,

Johannes:

stress that essentially all contributes to that overall feeling.

Johannes:

And the consequences, I think that we tend to oftentimes not prioritize

Johannes:

our wellbeing as we'd like.

Johannes:

I can observe that with, you know, in my own day to day as well.

Johannes:

And coming back to that, you know, we'd sort of really start at.

Johannes:

Thinking about how can we maximize the benefit of the Clearlight

Johannes:

sauna users when they really have an hour that they can set aside?

Johannes:

And you know, with sauna use, it really comes down to the frequency.

Johannes:

Ideally, you really want to do it, you know, three, four, five, six times a week.

Johannes:

You know, some of the research has indicated that, you know, the more

Johannes:

you use it, you know, the sort of the better the health benefits.

Johannes:

And it's.

Johannes:

Significant numbers in terms of what, you know, very frequent sauna or

Johannes:

heat exposure does to your overall longevity and health and altogether.

Johannes:

When we come back to this, you know, if we, our dream scenario

Johannes:

would obviously be that a person uses the sauna an hour a day, you

Johannes:

know, 15 to 20 minutes per heating time, 40 to 45 minutes of using it.

Johannes:

Um, you know, during the sauna, uh, you could listen to a podcast, you could

Johannes:

do a meditation, you could read a book, you know, because you have much lower

Johannes:

temperatures, you don't have the steam, um, so therefore it's perfectly safe

Johannes:

to take potentially even a phone in there for a little bit of time, which

Johannes:

we don't recommend, but you could.

Johannes:

And then we sort of wondered, well, you know, we got the infrared heat,

Johannes:

we got sound, we, you know, we sort of have the space, what other health

Johannes:

amenities can we actually bring in there?

Johannes:

And that's essentially when we sort of started thinking along the

Johannes:

lines of, well, you know, wouldn't red light therapy be actually be

Johannes:

a great add on to fit in there?

Johannes:

Red Light Therapy is also the FDA class two approved technology.

Johannes:

I think it's very well known, um, in the health and wellness space.

Johannes:

It's been very well studied all together with, I think, multiple

Johannes:

of thousand studies on the various different health benefits.

Johannes:

Um, and that's essentially when it, you know, we had it on our

Johannes:

radar and we figured out a way to integrate it into the sauna.

Johannes:

Now this is easier said than done because in a sauna you tend to

Johannes:

have, uh, environments of 60, 65 degrees Celsius at times.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

And for those that know red light therapy, they often use fans to cool the LEDs

Johannes:

that dictates the lifespan of an LED.

Johannes:

And that's essentially where the engineering challenge really was and

Johannes:

figuring, well, how can we do that?

Johannes:

And also, how can we build a device so that the LED intensity doesn't

Johannes:

deteriorate due to the heat over time?

Johannes:

And that's, I think, three or four years ago, we launched

Johannes:

the red light therapy add on.

Johannes:

It's a very intense unit that is literally attached to the door.

Johannes:

Uh, and then you can obviously, while you're still in there, you can

Johannes:

also turn on the red light therapy tower for say 10, 15, 20 minutes.

Johannes:

And, and really make sure that your mitochondria get a

Johannes:

little bit of boost through the photobiomodulation effect as well.

Johannes:

We also have our assault therapy, so you can also integrate an inhaler.

Johannes:

We're working on an aromatherapy.

Johannes:

And I think the dream to come true, which we've been working on for a number of

Johannes:

years would be a UVB or vitamin D light.

Johannes:

Cause obviously I know you're in Northern England, I'm in

Johannes:

at the moment, I'm in Germany.

Johannes:

There is a chronic lack of light at this time of the year, particularly,

Johannes:

um, you know, intense UV light in order to make sure that our vitamin D levels

Johannes:

are, are okay or where they should be.

Johannes:

And I just really think thinking along those lines of how we can

Johannes:

stack these different amenities in a useful way to maximize the

Johannes:

value for the user in the sauna.

Johannes:

It's a very worthwhile task on our end.

Johannes:

And, you know, we've been working a lot on this.

Rob:

Perfect.

Rob:

And those red lights, I assume that they sort of cover a, a wide range

Rob:

of wavelengths, sort of all the way, your sort of 600 all the way up to

Rob:

about 900 nanometers, is that correct?

Johannes:

Yeah, exactly.

Johannes:

So you kind of wanna be in the 600 to 660, 670, and then 800 to 860, 870.

Johannes:

Right.

Johannes:

So red light, near and red separately.

Johannes:

Um, but obviously in the infrared solar, we use a very wide spectrum.

Johannes:

You know, we have full spectrum heaters in there that combine

Johannes:

near, middle, and far infrared.

Johannes:

We have red light in the roof.

Johannes:

We have far infrared heaters with a very broad spectrum,

Johannes:

um, sort of all around you.

Johannes:

And I think that's truly what makes the red light therapy another worthwhile

Johannes:

purchase because you, as you said, like, you really need those two generic

Johannes:

wavelengths at a very high intensity, you know, and, and I think there are some

Johannes:

companies that claim, Oh, we got red light in our sauna, but it's not intense enough.

Johannes:

Like, you know, I think it really needs to be more than a hundred milliwatts per

Johannes:

square centimeter, obviously, depending on the distance of where you use it.

Johannes:

And that's not an easy thing to achieve, you know, just putting in

Johannes:

red light strips won't do the trick.

Rob:

And I'm sure it's, yeah, somewhat of a logistical

Rob:

nightmare, at least to start with.

Rob:

It doesn't sound like something I'd like to try and really have a go at.

Rob:

Anyway, should we, uh, sort of touch on some of the benefits

Rob:

of, well, maybe not benefits.

Rob:

We've already sort of gone through those, but some of the

Rob:

more targeted, um, use cases.

Rob:

I know.

Rob:

I'm sure you've had a lot of people come to you with certain sorts of,

Rob:

uh, well, medical, medical challenges, should we say, opposed to complaints,

Rob:

um, generally speaking, where, where do you find people or what sort of

Rob:

issues do you find people have the most relief from sauna, uh, from in general?

Johannes:

I think the biggest one is stress, you know, by far, and,

Johannes:

and potentially linked to that sleep quality and sleep duration.

Johannes:

Um, it could obviously rattle on about these, you know, these, these

Johannes:

are cardiovascular disease and other lifestyle related diseases.

Johannes:

Which we'll talk about, sure.

Johannes:

But I think the biggest one, which is hard to quantify is stress.

Johannes:

Um, you know, I think the fact that people always say, well, if I've

Johannes:

had my sauna, you know, just before I go to bed, I feel so much better.

Johannes:

Um, you know, I sleep a lot better.

Johannes:

Um, I feel more balanced.

Johannes:

My skin looks better.

Johannes:

So just really seems to be this overall mood and confidence shifter.

Johannes:

And I think a big part of that is the regulation of our nervous system.

Johannes:

You know, I think it's very, very easy nowadays to be in that

Johannes:

constant fight or flight mode.

Johannes:

You know, we get a lot of work stress, emotional stress, financial stress.

Johannes:

And I think if we spend the last two hours before getting to bed on a phone or having

Johannes:

to work or, you know, just dealing with some of these stresses, I think that,

Johannes:

you know, truly has an effect on our nervous system and on our sleep quality.

Johannes:

And I think the great thing about the sauna is it's literally a sauna, right?

Johannes:

So you walk in there, ideally you don't take your phone, no one

Johannes:

technically can get hold of you.

Johannes:

And it really helps you come into that, you know, parasympathetic nervous system

Johannes:

state to really actually wind down.

Johannes:

And actually, you know, and I think along those lines, saunas have

Johannes:

been shown to increase melatonin.

Johannes:

You know, people don't fully understand yet whether it's really the heat

Johannes:

mechanism or whether it's literally through the relaxation and through the

Johannes:

down regulation of the nervous system.

Johannes:

But I think that's a big one.

Johannes:

Um, another big one, I think, which is kind of linked to stress

Johannes:

is really cardiovascular health and cardiovascular diseases.

Johannes:

Obviously depends, uh, on, on how soon someone gets onto that.

Johannes:

But I think we can all agree that cardiovascular disease is a major,

Johannes:

uh, driver nowadays for mortalities.

Johannes:

So to speak, we have blood pressure, chronically high blood pressure,

Johannes:

which seems to be linked to stress, but also other conditions.

Johannes:

Our strokes, we have heart attacks.

Johannes:

Um, and I think if we really can actually proactively work on allowing us to de

Johannes:

stress, allowing our cardiovascular system to get that workout, you know,

Johannes:

as long as have been shown in the long term to help regulate blood pressure,

Johannes:

um, especially high blood pressure.

Johannes:

Uh, I think that is a major driver when it comes to overall health because I

Johannes:

don't know the numbers for the UK, but I believe it's kind of around 50 or 60

Johannes:

percent where essentially cardiovascular diseases or issues are linked to, to

Johannes:

death, to all the deaths reported.

Johannes:

And I think for some countries, it's even higher, such as the US or Australia.

Johannes:

I think a really, really important one is detoxification.

Johannes:

Um, I know we, you know, you know, we both have a passion for that obviously, and I'd

Johannes:

love to hear your, your take on the kind of normal pathways of, of a human body.

Johannes:

But for a long time, it was believed that the internal organs are the

Johannes:

main drivers for detoxification.

Johannes:

That is true to quite an extent, which I'm sure you'll talk about.

Johannes:

But I think in some studies around 2014, it was also shown that sweating

Johannes:

and our skin is potentially another major driver for the detoxification.

Johannes:

And, you know, it really depends on the substances and on, on the, you

Johannes:

know, on what we want to detoxify from.

Johannes:

Um, but sweat has been shown to be more effective when it comes

Johannes:

to certain heavy metals, such as cadmium, arsen, um, aluminium.

Johannes:

Um, but also PCS and PCBs, um, which is sort of more micro

Johannes:

plastics, uh, in lay terms.

Johannes:

But you know, it's, you can't generalize the fact that, you know, sweating

Johannes:

is more effective than our internal detox, detoxification pathways.

Johannes:

Um, but there is a lot of evidence around, you know, infrared

Johannes:

saunas supporting your detox.

Johannes:

You know, it all comes down to the, uh, you know, toxins

Johannes:

being stored in our fat cells.

Johannes:

I think you spoke about the lap lipolysis, I think yesterday.

Rob:

Lipolysis.

Johannes:

Yeah, lipolysis.

Johannes:

Thank you.

Johannes:

But ultimately, you know, there are infrared saunas have really shown

Johannes:

to help, you know, flush some of these toxins out there, protocols

Johannes:

around, for instance, detox protocol.

Johannes:

And I know you have a lot more in depth understanding when it comes

Johannes:

to the biochemical or biochem Yeah.

Johannes:

Biochemistry, uh, inside the body.

Johannes:

So probably hand over to you for a few minutes.

Rob:

Cool, yeah.

Rob:

So, what sauna does really well, among other things, is it sort of,

Rob:

as you know, it activates, it creates a state of hormesis, which is a

Rob:

cellular stress response in the body.

Rob:

And when that stress response is activated by the body, it activates

Rob:

a certain pathway called NRF2.

Rob:

And NRF2 is, uh, responsible for the creation of, of glutathione,

Rob:

which is the body's main, sort of, main antioxidant, among many.

Rob:

But what glutathione does is, is it allows the body to help, in layman's terms,

Rob:

excrete a lot of these substances that are stored, um, in the, in the body.

Rob:

However, whilst glutathione is great at sort of getting rid of a lot of these,

Rob:

these toxins, It's not able to always liberate them, which is where things like

Rob:

the niacin protocol come into their own.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

What high dose niacin does is it helps to activate lipolysis or the liberation

Rob:

of free fatty acids in the bloodstream.

Rob:

And as you know, toxins are really stored in fat, especially fat soluble ones.

Rob:

So, yeah, the idea with the niacin detox protocol is that you build up

Rob:

to a high dose of niacin over time.

Rob:

Um, it, it's not something you want to do necessarily by yourself or without

Rob:

the, um, Maybe the guidance of a physician because high dose niacin for

Rob:

extended periods of time can Uh, actually cause issues like insulin resistance.

Rob:

And there was a paper released just the other day that suggested that it can

Rob:

actually damage, and I can't remember the name of them, so I'm not going to

Rob:

try, uh, certain receptors in the heart for, with long term usage, which is

Rob:

why it's now not being looked at as an effective way to boost your NAD levels,

Rob:

as I'm sure you know, uh, vitamin B3, niacin is sort of the backbone, a lot of

Rob:

these NAD precursors, NMN, NR, et cetera.

Rob:

Uh, but whereas NR and NMN seem to have a slightly, well they do, they have a

Rob:

safer safety profile with long term use.

Rob:

Uh, it appears that niacin doesn't, that's not to say that obviously

Rob:

you can't use it in the short term, um, especially at high doses, but

Rob:

it's just something to be aware of.

Rob:

And anyway, uh, the, the sauna detox protocol with niacin, I think it

Rob:

was initially sort of put together by a gentleman called Ron Hubbard.

Rob:

Uh, I think that's correct.

Rob:

And yeah, the idea is that you take a large quantity of niacin prior to a sauna

Rob:

session, and that helps to start, uh, liberating a lot of these toxins stored

Rob:

in fat that you can then start getting out by, yeah, activating glutathione, uh,

Rob:

synthesis, utilizing heat to directly, uh, push the toxins out through the

Rob:

lymphatic system, out through the sweat.

Rob:

Yeah, you can also utilize a number of other compounds along with niacin such

Rob:

as caffeine, which is another great way to mobilize, to mobilize fatty acids.

Rob:

Uh, you have Uh, compounds to increase circulation, such as citrulline

Rob:

and other nitric oxide precursors.

Rob:

Uh, and then there are a number of interesting products, such as Piperine,

Rob:

uh, black pepper extract, which actually helped to increase the body's, uh,

Rob:

thermal output of heat, uh, at a baseline.

Rob:

So, yeah, these products, when you sort of use them in combination,

Rob:

are, help the body to really sort of mobilize a lot of these toxins.

Rob:

Afterwards, what you normally want to do, uh, is utilize some sort of binder

Rob:

so that you can then get the toxins ready to be excreted from the body.

Rob:

And that is essentially in a nutshell, uh, how sauna allows you with or without other

Rob:

supplementation to start excreting a lot of these unwanted chemicals from the body.

Rob:

I think it's also important to say that these enviro toxins aren't just limited

Rob:

to heavy metals, but, uh, to plastics.

Rob:

Um, there was a study the other day that, uh, I think it was within the

Rob:

last two weeks, I have to double check the date, uh, microplastics

Rob:

and nanoplastics and ath, uh, atheroma and cardiovascular events.

Rob:

Yeah, I don't know if you saw it, but essentially 304 patients were

Rob:

enrolled in the study and of that 304, I believe it was 257 actually came

Rob:

out with elevated amounts of these microplastics in their coronary arteries

Rob:

that resulted in the buildup of these, of these atheromas which is basically,

Rob:

uh, a fatty deposit that is a, uh, a precursor to atherosclerotic plaque.

Rob:

Um, so it now looks like microplastics are actually contributing quite

Rob:

drastically to, to heart disease.

Rob:

So, wow.

Rob:

Just another reason, uh, that you want to try and sort of a, sort of

Rob:

steer clear, uh, from them as much as possible, and then also detox from them.

Rob:

As often as possible.

Rob:

It really is.

Rob:

Uh, quite a serious situation.

Rob:

And when, I mean, when you look at the fish supply, for example, in the

Rob:

sea, I mean, I'm sure you've seen those statistics it's, uh, yeah, you

Rob:

can, you can, yeah, you can barely eat fish anymore without being

Rob:

contaminated by either sort of mercurial or these microplastics as well.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely just another reason to, to utilize Sauna.

Rob:

I

Johannes:

couldn't have said it better, Rob.

Johannes:

I think that was very spot on.

Johannes:

Um, maybe two, you know, two other benefits that I think are really important

Johannes:

are, you know, the inflammation reduction.

Johannes:

You know, I think we're an anti inflammatory property, so to speak,

Johannes:

you know, I think inflammation, you know, tends to happen, I think, through

Johannes:

lifestyle, you know, at least if it's unwanted inflammation, um, and I think,

Johannes:

you know, infrared light, and that's what has actually been shown to reduce

Johannes:

some of that oxidative stress or those free radicals, essentially, in our body.

Johannes:

That's another one.

Johannes:

And I think pain management, you know, I think we had a chat yesterday as well.

Johannes:

And we, we sort of talked a lot about the fact that if someone is sick, like proper

Johannes:

sick and, you know, maybe it's actually chronic joint pain and, you know, due

Johannes:

to arthritis or, you know, other chronic inflammation in the body, you know,

Johannes:

mobility or movement is super important.

Johannes:

Um, however, you know, they literally can't get to that stage

Johannes:

because they're not fit enough or because they're in pain too much.

Johannes:

And I think.

Johannes:

It's really when an infrared sauna or a sauna in general can actually

Johannes:

provide a great starting point.

Johannes:

Um, for some people it's sort of really regaining the health, you know, because

Johannes:

obviously you're getting that detox and you're getting that cardiovascular workout

Johannes:

and it helps you reducing inflammations, you know, and I think that itself

Johannes:

makes a sauna a very, very interesting cocktail, you know, altogether.

Johannes:

If you are really suffering from, from some serious pain or

Johannes:

some serious different issues, you know, that's something we

Johannes:

also hear on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

And the last one is, uh, probably a mild form of hyperthermia you know,

Johannes:

for those that do know infrared therapy itself is perceived as

Johannes:

an alternative cancer treatment.

Johannes:

Um, you know, it really raises core temperatures up to 39, 40, 40.

Johannes:

1, five degrees Celsius.

Johannes:

So that's nothing we can recommend here.

Johannes:

And then also that Clearlight Saunas are designed for, however, if you use

Johannes:

a sauna for 45 to 50 minutes, you'll actually get a soft hyperthermia we

Johannes:

spoke about that earlier that your body really gets that artificial fever.

Johannes:

It helps really upregulate the immune system.

Johannes:

I mean, you know, you find calories as a consequence of that as well.

Johannes:

Um, but I think the bottom line is that you just give your cardiovascular

Johannes:

system and your immune system a really good spin, um, to make sure that,

Johannes:

you know, it, it, yeah, it's just getting, it's stronger than before.

Johannes:

And I really find that promising if someone is in chronic pain and they

Johannes:

know exercise is the way to go, um, you know, but they literally can't

Johannes:

because they're so much in pain.

Rob:

Yeah, and we definitely touched on that yesterday as well, but, um, the

Rob:

cardiovascular benefits just in terms of sauna being able to increase heart rate

Rob:

is definitely nothing to be understated as well, I mean you sit in a, in a infrared

Rob:

sauna and your, your heart rate steadily sort of climbs to 100, 110, 120 beats

Rob:

a minute without too much effort and that's, um, And that's basically what

Rob:

Peter Attia sort of points to as being this sort of zone two cardio zone, which

Rob:

is great for, uh, mitochondrial biogenesis and lifespan expansion in general.

Rob:

Um, when you sort of put the body into that stress state, it has to

Rob:

sort of build more mitochondria through, uh, a number of pathways.

Rob:

One of them being, uh, through a pathway called, uh, PGC1 alpha, which

Rob:

is, uh, mediated by sirtuin enzymes, which is what a lot in the longevity

Rob:

space are taking supplements, uh, like resveratrol and pterostilbene for.

Rob:

Uh, so again, sauna is a natural memetic of a lot of these supplements

Rob:

and is able to create a lot of the same, yeah, uh, outcome benefits.

Rob:

Uh, in that respect, uh, I think a lot of the, the pain relief comes down to,

Rob:

again, sauna being able to mediate a lot of these, uh, inflammatory cytokines, uh,

Rob:

which are signaling molecules that control inflammation, as well as what are called

Rob:

transcription factors, so, uh, I think they're, they're pretty big buzzwords,

Rob:

but things like, uh, TNF alpha and nucleofactor kappa beta, As well as your

Rob:

various interleukins, um, these are all molecules that help to, at one level or

Rob:

another, mediate and control inflammation.

Rob:

And, uh, ironically, you can shut down a lot of those pathways, uh, with

Rob:

the, uh, with the inclusion of heat.

Rob:

So, yeah.

Rob:

Pain is an essentially a, uh, a nerve response to, to inflammation signals.

Rob:

So if you can dampen down these signals, you can really lower, lower pain.

Rob:

And I think there's also a lot to be said about building pain resilience in

Rob:

something like a sauna in the same way that there is a cold shower, uh, or

Rob:

cold, cold thermogenesis in general.

Rob:

Um, when you put yourself into a state where you are acutely stressed, uh, you,

Rob:

well, this is more of a, I suppose, a thought than anything else, but you are

Rob:

able to just build more mental resilience.

Rob:

You're doing a hard thing, aren't you?

Rob:

And it sort of just creates that contrast between being in that acute

Rob:

situation and then everyday life.

Rob:

So.

Rob:

There's probably a psychological component in that sense to it as well.

Johannes:

100 percent and I think that is being picked up in studies as we speak.

Johannes:

I know that in 2021, there was a sort of soft hypothermia study in the US from Dr.

Johannes:

Ashley Mason.

Johannes:

I think she actually has worked with from North Africa before and

Johannes:

actually used the, you know, portable Clearlight to conduct that study.

Johannes:

You can see it in the, I think, two hour interview that they conducted together.

Johannes:

And she tried to measure the effects of, uh, hyperthermia or heat stress

Johannes:

on mental well being, I think, specifically for people, uh, that

Johannes:

were suffering from depression.

Johannes:

And I think there was a significant number that actually witnessed an improvement

Johannes:

in how they would describe their well being, um, you know, given the fact

Johannes:

that they are, depressed at times.

Johannes:

So I think there's a lot of prominent stuff happening.

Johannes:

That's also why I believe this, as you said, like heat and cold exposure

Johannes:

is really gaining a lot of momentum.

Johannes:

Sure.

Johannes:

It's good for your health, but it also really gives you that mental

Johannes:

clarity at the mental resilience, which I believe we all need on a

Johannes:

day to day basis at the moment.

Rob:

Yeah, no, I just looked it up and the mechanism behind that appears

Rob:

to be an increase in brave derived neurotrophic factor levels, uh, BDNF.

Rob:

So the same, same molecule that lion's mane mushroom increases in

Rob:

the body and that's Yeah, generally then linked to increased learning

Rob:

but also mood and memory retention.

Rob:

So that's It appears on the surface to be the main mechanism there.

Rob:

Yeah, I think that sort of generally wraps it up, uh, for the most part,

Rob:

uh, at least for an initial sort of foray sauna for people who are new

Rob:

to an especially infrared sauna.

Rob:

Um, is there anything else that you, uh, would like to touch on or do you think

Rob:

we've covered most things at this point?

Johannes:

I think we've covered a lot of things, I guess.

Johannes:

You know, I just really want to say for someone that is new to this topic,

Johannes:

I hope this wasn't too confusing, you know, I mean, I absolutely loved your

Johannes:

biochemistry with, uh, Rob, I think you, you're a genius in that level.

Johannes:

But what I specifically mean is those people that are looking at buying an

Johannes:

infrared sauna, it can be very confusing.

Johannes:

There's a lot of contradictory information when it comes to

Johannes:

the different manufacturers.

Johannes:

It's not regulated.

Johannes:

So, you know, we've seen companies really promote that they saw enough

Johannes:

help with vitamin D production, which is, you know, it couldn't

Johannes:

be further away from the truth.

Johannes:

So, I think it's just really important to sit down and sort of digest what we talked

Johannes:

about in terms of good heat exposure, EMF and ELF being very important and then sort

Johannes:

of really asking yourself the question of, you know, how can I really maximize

Johannes:

this device on a day to day basis?

Johannes:

You know, I love traditional saunas, but for me, they're absolutely

Johannes:

impractical on a day to day basis.

Johannes:

You know, it takes.

Johannes:

You know, an hour to an hour and a half to preheat and then I,

Johannes:

you know, another hour to use it.

Johannes:

So, you know, 2 to 3 hours, um, is what it would take.

Johannes:

And if you have the time, great.

Johannes:

Um, but I think a lot of the times in infrared sauna really provides more

Johannes:

value on a day to day basis, just because you're in and out and under an hour.

Johannes:

And the electricity costs are probably 20 percent compared to the traditional sauna.

Johannes:

So I think that's just something I really wanted to highlight because it's, you

Johannes:

know, with some of these things, it's really important that you not just buy

Johannes:

the device, but you actually use it.

Johannes:

And I feel like with saunas, that is even more true because it is a great

Johannes:

tool, but if you have one at home that you're not using, you know, it

Johannes:

doesn't really give you the benefits.

Johannes:

So I think that's true for a lot of things, but specifically with

Johannes:

saunas, I believe like, you know, you really have to find something that

Johannes:

works for you on a day to day basis.

Rob:

Definitely.

Rob:

Where can people find more about Clearlight, more about you?

Rob:

I believe you've got a podcast as well of your own.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

Yeah.

Johannes:

We just launched, uh, we, we launched actually, it was called

Johannes:

the sauna show on YouTube.

Johannes:

Now it's called the HELSI show H E L S I.

Johannes:

Um, you can find us in the UK on infraredsauna.

Johannes:

co.

Johannes:

uk or you just type in Clearlight saunas.

Johannes:

Um, and if people want to find me for, Um, you know, for questions or ideas

Johannes:

or podcasts, um, you can find me on LinkedIn on Johannes Kettelhodt which

Johannes:

I'm sure Rob will link down below.

Johannes:

Um, but yeah, I look forward to hearing from you

Rob:

guys.

Rob:

Thank you so much for the time.

Rob:

We'll chat soon.

Johannes:

Thanks Rob.

Johannes:

Have a good one.

Rob:

Thank you for joining us for today's episode with

Rob:

Johannes and Clearlight Saunus.

Rob:

If you'd like to learn more about Clearlight or read up on any of

Rob:

the studies referenced in today's episode, then please click on the

Rob:

link in podcast description below to take you to today's show notes.

Rob:

Thank you again for listening.

Rob:

Till next time.

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