In a world that wants to keep hustling and believing that “bigger is better”, we’ve always had a different measure of success.

For Laurence and Carlos, it’s about forging deep friendships and relationships, getting out in nature, making things that give people delight, and making sure that those you love get more of you.

To do this can mean simplifying our lives. It can mean focusing on what matters and recognising that there’s another way to be in the world - and in the business world.

The Happy Startup way of thinking has been influenced by Small is Beautiful by the economist and environmentalist EF Schumacher. But they’re not the first to be influenced by this classic text.

In 1991 Satish Kumar, a former Jain monk and activist, launched the ground-breaking Schumacher College near Totnes with a short course on Gaia Theory led by James Lovelock. In this episode, Laurence and Carlos talk with him about getting off the treadmill of endless competition and consumption, as discussed in his book Elegant Simplicity.

They explore what it means to prioritise happiness, social equity, and a desire to tread lightly on the earth. Hear why we “need to go wild” and reconnect with our souls, the soil, and our society in a less complicated, less wasteful, way. Find out what it means to “live like a poet” and find purpose through relationships, contribution, and connection to the environment around us.

Links

• Join the conversation live
• Become a member of the Happy Startup School
• Join the next Vision 20/20 cohort

Today we have, uh, the honor, uh, and the privilege of talking to Satish Kuma, founder of Schumacher College.

He's also an ex Jane Monk.

Uh, an activist, an author, someone who, whose work and words have inspired, uh, myself and Laurence, uh, in the work that we do.

Someone we've been aching to get to summer camp and maybe the universe will provide that opportunity, but at the very least we have him today, uh, to share his thoughts and his, uh, perspective on many things.

And then particularly in this case, we, we, the title was Elegant Simplicity.

Uh, and for, for us, there's something around this idea of elegance, simplicity, and particularly around business.

And we have a community here of the Happy Startup School.

We're all people trying to build business in a different way.

Something that doesn't follow the traditional path of just profit.

What does it mean to build a business that has other motives?

Uh, and it's a, I think, a burgeoning scene with lots of different takes and different angles, and loving to, looking forward to hearing, uh, Satish's sort of thoughts and ideas around that to hopefully inspire us even more and to inspire you..

And you know, I, I'm only kind of recently aware of your story and, and kind of like where you came from on this journey of your work.

Maybe start off with just a little potted history of, yeah.

The, the beginning of this, this, uh, your ideas and, and what's influenced you maybe in the past that

Yes.

Present.

Yes.

One of my great inspiration was a British philosopher, Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize winning Lord Bertrand Russell was protesting against the bomb.

And with his colleagues and friends, he went to uh, the Whitehall in front of the defense ministry and protested and refused to move.

And so he was arrested.

He was put in jail at age 90 he was protesting against a nuclear bomb and went to jail.

I was 26 at that time and I was, uh, in Bangalore.

In South India and I was in a coffee house reading this newspaper.

And I said to my friend that Here is the man of 90 going to jail for peace in the world?

What are we doing young men sitting here drinking coffee?

Let's do something to support the international movement for peace and Bertrand Russell.

So my friend and I decided to join the International Peace Movement and Bertrand Russell, particularly, he was the inspiration, and walk from India, from New Delhi, from the grave of Mahatma Gandhi to Moscow, Paris, London and Washington DC, the four nuclear capitalists of the world.

And we did it.

And we did without any money.

Because wars begin in fear.

Peace begins in trust.

How do we show that?

We trust the world and we believe in peace?

If you have money, you don't have to trust anybody.

You buy your food, you buy your shoes, you buy your uh, rooms, you buy everything.

But if you have no money, you have to trust people.

And so we trusted people and strangers looked after us for two and a half years, 8,000 miles journey across 15 countries.

And that was, I think, a, a kind of resilience and a, and a trust and peace and ecology and sustainability.

All these things came together in that journey, two and a half years of walking around the world.

My first word that spr to mind when you were talking about embarking on such a, what I would perceive as a quite a challenging journey at many levels, was the word commitment, you know, committing to a cause, committing to a journey.

But you then came in with this word trust, which it felt more, well, it seems to have a different quality to it.

I, I'm curious for you, commitment, trust, are they one and the same or are they slightly different?

They, they were nuance, there.

Commitment to trust you can say.

Commitment is a resolve.

When I say that, I'm going to trust.

That's a commitment and without commitment, you cannot trust.

So I would say they are complimentary.

And we need to commit to some great ideals in our lives.

So I committed to peace.

I committed to ecology.

I committed to regenerative culture, uh, protecting nature, and creating a kind of life which is joyful and happy, but not damaging to planet and not damaging to society.

So that's the kind of commitment I made in my life.

So trust and commitment, you can say, are complimentary.

They go together and, and without commitment, you, you become dilettante, and you just do one thing and then change and do something else, and you doesn't satisfy, you do something else and you keep changing.

But if you have a commitment, then you stay with it.

Ups, downs, difficulties, problems, uh, uh, all those things come and you stay with, uh, your course and stay then whatever problems come, I will solve them.

I'll resolve them.

I'm not going to give up.

So you remain resilient and strong.

So that's a, uh, benefit of commitment that you commit Something like in a marriage you commit.

And you say, I'm committing to you, and whatever ups, downs, difficulties, I'll stay with you.

So that's a kind of, life commitment is very important.

And trust and commitment go together.

I I think that's, these are very important words, I believe for us and particularly in our community.

And I think particularly the commitment piece, there's an aspect of, uh, people trying to find the right business.

The idea, of kind of, uh, shiny object syndrome.

Oh, that looks good.

Oh, that looks good.

Like, you know, you, you, you can get very sidetracked by new, beautiful things that you could create.

And so the, this, this idea of committing to one thing can be a struggle sometimes for for many people because there's a, there's a fear of missing out.

And then the other aspect of this trust is people are on this journey of building a business, sometimes a business that hasn't got any model that they can follow, something that they are just creating from the inside out.

And so they don't know where it can lead.

And so this real need to trust the journey is important.

So I'd be curious to hear what, what your thoughts on what it takes to make a commitment.

Yes.

You know, to find something you want to commit to.

And then also this journey for some people who, who might not trust the world to then trusting the world.

No, that's a very good question.

First of all, I would like to say that business is a good thing.

We need business in our society.

Without business, we cannot run anything.

For food.

For clothes, for shoes, for furniture, for house, for energy, everything you have to make transaction.

You have to exchange goods and services.

So business a good thing.

My father was a businessman, but he's used to say that I want to remain a kind of right size, not too big, not too small, appropriate size.

And people will ask him, but then why are you in business?

You must grow and grow and make more money and more profit and more money.

And my father said, I'm in business to make friends, not make money.

Making money is only a means to an end.

When I have a business, I have a customers, I have suppliers, they are friends of mine.

I can go and have lunch with them, I can have a dinner with them, I can go for walking with them, I can play cards with them.

So his commitment was to friendship.

I am in business to make friends.

That was his commitment.

So in the same way, all of us can have some commitment to, in business, we can say, of course, business, you need to make money.

You need to balance your books.

If you don't balance your books, you go bankrupt.

So that's not a good model of business.

But the purpose of business, the meaning of business, and not just making money, making money is a means to an end.

The end is human relationship, pleasure, joy, friendship, happiness, looking after nature, looking after family, looking after people.

So there are, there are greater purposes, greater meaning behind any action you do.

So if we have a commitment to those values, that's where the commitment comes in, that I'm in business, moneymaking is only a means to an end and the end is something greater.

And then each and every one of the businessmen and woman have to decide what is that greater meaning, other than making profit, other than making money?

Moneymaking is normal, but something greater than that.

That's a commitment.

And each and every one of you listening have to decide for yourself.

What is your commitment?

What are your values?

What is the purpose of behind your business?

And each, somebody can say, I'm here to serve a community, or I'm here to take care of nature, or I'm here to do something.

So each and every one of you have to find a purpose, a meaning behind business.

And then money is a neutral thing.

Like I'm speaking to you, these words, words are neutral.

I can speak words, which are sweet and kind and helpful and loving, and you will feel happy.

So yes, these are like music to my ears.

These are good words.

Or I can use harsh words, difficult words, abusive words, insulting words, and those words can be harsh.

And so, business is neutral.

Like language is neutral, A knife is neutral.

You can use knife to cut vegetables or you can cut somebody's throat.

So how you use money, the purpose, the commitment to purpose informs the use of your money you use.

If you have good purpose and, and, and your purpose is to make money, become famous, have a status, have a name, have a frame, have big yacht, and a big private jet and two houses in Paris, and a house in here and there, if that is your purpose, then, that that's a very mean purpose, and so you have to have something greater.

And so that's what I call commitment to a greater purpose, which goes beyond making money and name and fame and prestige and power and control and all these kind of super superficial things.

I love that.

I don't think I'm the one who's, uh, echoing that thought.

Yeah.

And this talks our language.

I think this is why we've always loved your work is this feeling of there's more to life, there's more to business than, than making money.

And it is about that human connection.

You know, we've had countless people come to our events and say it's like a friend factory.

So they come for a business reason.

They come to learn how to maybe get started or grow the business or build some clarity about what they're doing.

But more than anything, they make friends and those friends become people who share that journey with them.

So for me, that's, I think the biggest endorsement of, uh, this mission is to actually connect people who, you know, will benefit from working together or, uh, being part of this journey together.

That's very good.

That's very good.

That's very good.

You know, in our business we have HR department.

And HR stands for human resources.

I think that means that our businesses are using people to run organization, to make business profitable.

So humans have become a resource for something else.

And I think this is where the purpose is missing.

I would like to change HR from human resources to human relationship.

The moment you change from resource to relationship, you are changing your purpose.

Because if you are very human resources, then humans are resourced for what?

For making money, for making profit, running organization.

But human relationship, when you make profit, you make money, you make business successful, so the human relations enhance and friendship and, and all those things, wellbeing of humans, wellbeing of earth.

So humans should not be a resource for making money or running an organization that would be a purposeful business.

Secondly, other purpose is the business uses natural resources.

So we see nature's only a means to an end.

Nature is a resource for making money, making profit, running business.

I would like to change that as well.

I would like to say nature is not a resource for making money, making profit, or running a business for the economy, but money and profit and business and, uh, economic growth should be a means to make sure that our water is clean, our air is clean, our land is good, our food is good, and our clothes are made well, all beauty and, and sustainability, and then nature's integrity.

That should be the purpose.

And we use money of course, and we use nature and, and people are there, putting our profit back to restore nature.

Because we have to use water, we have to use uh, wood to make furniture.

We have to use uh, use, uh, soil or, or bricks to build a house, but then business to restore nature and say that we'll put some of our profit, say 20% or 15%, or 25% or whatever, a portion of your profit will go to restore nature, to bring nature's integrity back.

So the clean water plant trees.

Make sure that soil is in good heart, make sure that air's in good heart.

So using humans and using nature as a resource should be changed to maintaining the integrity of nature and maintain the wellbeing of humans and using money and profit and business for nature and for people.

That would be the kind of my uh, advice to change that purpose of business.

I love the, the idea of substituting the word resource with relationship.

That's right.

And whether it's human relationships or natural relationship as opposed to natural resources.

That, that feels like that feels like a value worth committing to.

The thing is that nature, nature and humans are not separate.

We are nature, we are made of earth, air, fire, water.

We don't own nature.

We have rela from ownership to relationship.

At the moment, we think I own the land.

I own the river.

I own buildings, I own nature, I own forest.

No ownership, but relationship/.

In the same way, human relationship and natural relationship.

If we can have the relationship.

Then I think our purpose for business and commitment to that purpose, and then business is good thing.

Money is not, money is neutral.

Money is a good thing.

You can use money for good purpose or you can use money for bad purpose.

Money is not the problem.

The problem is lack of wisdom, lack of commitment, lack of values, lack of purpose.

That's the problem.

If you have a right purpose, right values, right commitment, then money can be used for good purpose or bad purpose.

Depends on your commitment.

I'd like to then loop back to this idea of trust and, uh, what was coming up for me, particularly in this idea of relationship.

Yeah.

So in terms of human relationship, trusting that other humans aren't going to do things bad to you, and there's also this journey of the natural relationship.

And I, I just have this story of maybe back in times gone by where the, where, where we were essentially a slave to the weather for want of a better term, where we were kind of feeling like we were fighting nature for survival as opposed to necessarily being able to have this other relationship.

And now it feels like we've gone along this journey of humanity where we are trying to control nature, because that we think by controlling nature we can, uh, essentially keep ourselves safe, and how that Connects to this idea of trust, just trusting and relationships, whether it's with nature or you or other humans.

Yes, absolutely.

The thing is that when you have trust in nature, you also have a trust in yourself.

Because you have trust that I am able to live in harmony with nature.

I am able to, I have a trust in myself that I can live with all people, uh, in harmony, without quarrel, without violence, without exploitation.

I can live with all people, with humility and with purpose, I can live.

So that trust in yourself.

Trust is not only trusting other people, but trusting yourself that I am capable of solving problems when they come.

I'm capable of living in harmony with other people.

I'm capable of living in harmony with nature.

At the moment we lack that trust in ourselves, and therefore we don't trust nature and we don't trust humans.

So we have to trust nature.

And we have to say that nature has evolved.

For millions of years, at the beginning, there was only a big bang and there was nothing, uh, no forest, no rivers, no humans, no animals, and then just energy and gas and, and, uh, and matter.

So even nature had produced mountains, forests, animals, humans, culture, language, philosophy, religion.

Where does it all come from?

It has come from, from universe.

It has come from nature.

So we have to see if nature can evolve for millions of years to bring so many gift to the world.

We have to, we have a gratitude.

Thank you.

Nature.

Thank you, son for producing food.

Thank you water for nourishing life.

Thank you air.

That gratitude is essential for any good successful business.

At the moment, we have arrogance.

We humans are superior to nature, we are better than nature, we can control nature, we can dominate nature, we can exploit nature.

This arrogance of humans.

Need to be addressed in business world, and we have to be humble to nature, and we say nature is the source of life itself.

That's not only a resource for economy, but nature is life itself.

And nature has evolved and will continue to evolve, and we will be looked after by the sun, by the rain, by the water, by the soil, and and, and all the elements, they will be there.

Whether you are a king or a bagger, whether you are a priest or a prisoner, you are good or bad, every living being will be supported by nature.

That kind of trust in nature and trust in yourself is essential.

We want to make a good business, otherwise business is thinking that we can use nature for our benefit for this time, and we don't need to worry about future generations.

We don't need to worry about air, water quality, we don't need to worry about anything as long as we are making profit, as long as the bottom line is okay, as long as we have made uh, annual budget met.

That's, that's the two superficial.

So I have, I have greater vision for business.

That business should be a kind of full of gratitude and full of appreciation of nature.

And I, I'm celebrating this idea of a better idea for business.

And I'm connected to that 'cause I'm hearing this need for trust, need for humility.

And one of the challenges, I believe many of people who join our community, who, who are working on this path of building this business in a different way, is navigating uncertainty, navigating a future that they don't know how it's gonna turn out.

Yeah.

And sometimes that stops them from acting.

Yeah.

And maybe there's something around trust.

So I'd love to hear any words you have that help would help someone who is in fear of uncertainty or hesitant because of uncertainty happen.

You know, in life there are certain things, certain and certain things, uncertain.

There's certainty the rain will be here more or less, although global warming, climate changes, uh, changing that.

But the sun will be here.

Sun will shine, the rain will come, if you put one seed in the ground, one apple seed, you put in the soil, that one apple seed will become a tree.

There's certainty if you look after it, if you put a compost on it, if you put some water to it and allow it to grow, it'll become an apple tree.

You have, you have to trust that.

And that apple seed becoming a tree will give you thousands of apples.

Not for one year, for 5, 10, 15, 20 years, and each apple will have a four or five more seeds.

That's a certain , uncertainty.

So.

certainty to be celebrated.

But then there's some uncertainty.

One season there'll be more apples than another season.

You cannot de uh, decide.

Sometimes, some, uh, drought will come occasionally, you don't know.

So you have to create a kind of life where you can also live with uncertainty and trust yourself and trust nature, and if some difficulties come, you can trust yourself that I am resilient, I'm strong, I can face difficulties.

Do not be afraid of problems.

Do not be afraid of difficulties.

Difficulties make us strong.

Difficulties make us resilient, resilient.

And so, uh, difficulties are good.

Problems are good.

Uh, uncertainties also good.

If you take that positive attitude, then.

I mean, sometimes business may bring a little bit of uh, deficit, other year it may bring some greater profit, and then you balance it out.

So a little bit of uncertainty, a little of certainty is the kind of playing together.

There's never in life, there's only one thing.

Dark and light go together.

Yin and yang go together, negative and positive go together.

So, uh, little bit of uncertainty, little bit of certainty go together.

And we have to dance of certainty and uncertainty.

We have to dance with certainty and uncertainty.

I, I have lived 87 years.

I walked, as you I said, around the world for two and a half years without any money.

In the beginning, in the morning, I will start my walk.

I will not know which village I will stop or which town I will stop or whether I will shelter tonight or not, whether I'll have any food tonight or not.

There's never any certainty.

And yet, for two and a half years I survived and I'm here 87 years old.

And so uncertainty also good.

Certainty also good.

They dance together.

And you have to trust yourself that even in uncertain times, you have imagination, you have courage.

We have not spoken about courage.

Commitment, and trust, but also courage.

And at the moment we are becoming timid.

We are afraid of problems.

We are afraid of difficulties, we don't want anything, any, uh, uncertainty.

And that is, that is not, natural.

We, that's, life is not certain, always.

I don't know when I will die.

There's no certainty that I will live to be 90 or 95 or 92 or 89 or 88, or I might die tomorrow.

How do I know?

But I don't mind.

I'm happy to die tomorrow or I'm happy to live five more years or 10 more years.

So accepting uncertainty and, and, and enjoying certainty.

Those two things go together.

You cannot have just certainty or just uncertainty.

Those go together and we have to accept them and we have to enjoy them, we have to celebrate them.

If everything was certain, life will be boring.

We don't want the boring life.

We want to have some uncertainty, some challenges in life that makes life more interesting.

So uncertainty is not a bad thing.

Certainty is absolutely there, but also uncertainty is absolutely there.

Always they go together.

On the topic of things that aren't boring and things that are interesting and things that are certain, I thought would be a good opportunity to maybe talk about your publication your magazine, Satish.

um, Resurgence?

Yes.

I was in England visiting from India for a short time, and I met E F Schumacher, the author of Small is Beautiful, and he invited to become the editor of Resurgence.

In the beginning, I said, well, Mr., uh, Schumacher, I'm going back to India because I want to work with the Gandhian movement, and Schumacher said, but you know, these are many Gandhian in India.

We need one in England.

So please stay and make Resurgence Magazine a Gandhian magazine.

And Gandhian values are all about regenerative economy, regenerative culture, and, and trust and commitment and, and, uh, resilience and all these wonderful, uh, non-violence.

Mahatma Gandhi was great, uh, uh, teacher, so let's bring those principles in, uh, in England.

And so I accepted his invitation and I became the editor of Resurgence Magazine.

In 1973, and I edited the magazine until, uh, 2016, about more than 40 years.

And so that's a magazine still going.

It started in 1966 and it brings ecology, spirituality, art, culture, values, uh, purpose, all these things which we have talked about.

And we have quite a good connection with B-Corp movement.

And I go to speak at the B for good Leaders.

I went to Rome to speak at B four Good Leaders.

The last year I was in Amsterdam, and next year they have invited me again to speak at the B for Good Leaders.

So we worked with them and the magazine also brings articles about, uh, about this, these values.

And, and in the latest job Resurgence, I made an, I written an article called Making Peace with Nature.

Because the way we are treating animals, the way we are destroying rainforest, in Amazon and the way we are polluting our oceans with plastic, all those are for me, acts of war with nature.

And so we have to make peace with nature.

And there's, ethics dictates us that we treat nature with respect and with love and with care, uh, and, and not, uh, pollute and not destroy.

So those are the values.

Promoted by Resurgence Magazine and, and it's the membership, the Resurgence Trust is a charity.

It's a charitable organization.

And you become a member by paying 36 pounds a year.

It's a very small, uh, small amount for a year, and you get six issues of the magazine.

And I have been, I'm now editor emeritus and I write in every issue of Resurgence.

So that's, uh, my magazine.

And then as you mentioned, Schumacher College.

So Schumacher College is we named after Schumacher.

Author of Small Is Beautiful and Indel Small is Beautiful also is a beautiful essay and chapter called Buddhist Economics.

That's a, if you are a businessman and women, uh, if you read Buddhist economics, those are the kind of values of, of commitment and trust and, and, and respectful nature and respect for people.

All those things are in that Buddhist economics.

So Small is Beautiful.

So we started Schumacher College and we run courses.

And run courses for business people as well.

And so you can come to Schumacher College for one week or two weeks, whatever, uh, and do a course.

So, I would like just say that if you are interested in these ideas, you might like to, uh, look at our resurgence website and Resurgence magazine and also look at Schumacher College and, and maybe come there.

Wonderful.

And, uh, we have put links in the chat and we'll also put links in the show notes of the podcast for those of you listening to the podcast episode.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Really appreciate that.

And yeah please, uh, sounds like a, uh, a cause to align and support, particularly for those of you who are followers of the Happy Startup School.

I wanted to look back, ' cause you talked about courage, you talked about resilience, you talked about trust.

And that's something inside for me, something that we, we have to cultivate from the inside.

And also heard you talk about regenerative, the word regenerative, and being not only regenerative in the way we do business and the way we live outside in the world, but I think there's something about inside, internally.

And I'd be curious to understand, you know, in our, the Happy Startup School we talk about doing business from the inside out.

Yes.

Really understanding what you are talking about, our values, our needs, what is it that drives us before we start trying to make things in the world.

So I'd be curious to hear more about your thoughts and ideas around this, the inside of us, as well as what we do in the outside.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Wonderful question.

Because outer transformation.

Inner transformation go hand in hand together.

Unless we have a new way of looking at things, unless our minds, our consciousness, our spirit, uh, has that understanding, and inner transformation, uh, cultivating our courage and our compassion and our love in our heart and respect, all these are inner values.

So inner transformation and out transformation go hand in hand together.

If we just try to say, change the institution, change the law, change the policy, change the kind of business practices, those are okay.

But if our minds have not changed.

Our consciousness has not changed, our hearts have not changed, the outer change will not last very long, and we'll find other way of exploiting nature and exploiting human beings.

So change of heart is as important as change of business.

Change of heart is as important as change of policy.

Change of heart is as important as change of economic systems and and educational systems.

So inner transformation is change of heart, change of consciousness, change of mind.

And change of heart means.

That we cultivate more values of simplicity.

This is why one of my book is called Elegant Simplicity.

So we live simple life and enjoy, but have elegance, have a beauty.

At the moment, we are making a lot of business, making a lot of money, but there's no beauty.

We build beau ugly houses.

We build ugly petrol stations.

We built ugly business parks.

We built ugly industrial states.

We built ugly supermarkets.

All those things.

So we, we build, we create ugly clothes even.

Uh, fashion is fashion, but all very monotonous.

So, that's change of heart, inner change, inner consciousness change, change of mind, change of values is a inner transformation.

So I would say practicing meditation, practicing yoga, uh, give some time to yourself, going to walk in nature and saying, what is the purpose of my life?

Why am I here on this world?

Well, how can I be a more loving and kind person and how can I be more joyful and happy?

Uh, only I have 80, 90 years to live, how can I live happily and not have this burden, uh, of this problem, that problem always on the shoulders?

So that's an inner transformation, change of heart is as essential and giving your.

Some time to yourself.

Uh, you, we all give time to our body.

We feed our body for three times a day or four times a day.

We bathe every morning.

We shave every morning.

We wash clothes and put new clothes.

We look after our body.

But how much time do we spend to look after our soul, our spirit, and our heart, and our consciousness?

So like you bathe your body, you also bathe your heart and your soul and your spirit.

And that is a time to meditate, to go for a walk in nature.

Give some time to yourself and not just business, business, business, money, money, money, telephone, Zoom, emails, all the time busy, and no time for yourself.

So giving time for yourself.

Because you are the center of all the other activities, and you are not well in your physical and mental and, and a kind of soul, uh, not well inside yourself, you will not be, uh, kind of effective in the outside world either.

And so inner transformation is fundamental to outer change and transformation.

Before we go onto questions, I just wanted to finish on this final piece.

You talked about inner transformation and, and this resetting of the hard, just looking at the world in a different way, and then from there we create stuff in the world.

Uh, I would love to hear some final words around these creations and particularly this idea of beauty, usability, and durability.

Yes.

Uh, three things.

As you mentioned, whatever we make should be beautiful.

Our environmental crisis is a crisis of aesthetics.

We have lost our sense of aesthetic, sense of beauty.

So everything what we make, we produce, we use should be beautiful.

But beauty by itself is not enough.

Beauty should be accompanied by usefulness.

So whatever is beauty is not for decoration.

Beauty is not just to put on the walls and then put ugly clothes on your body, but put beautiful tapestry on the wall.

That is not enough.

So beauty should also be useful.

So everyday, uh, everyday things, your furniture, your clothes, your shoes, your pots, your pants, your plates, your bowls, whatever you have your house, everything, furniture, everything should be beautiful but useful.

So beautiful, useful.

And then the third principle of regenerative culture is durability.

Nowadays, fashion changes every season.

I.

Every season, every year, a new model of car, a new model of telephone, a new model of this, a new model of that, all the time, throw away, throw away old uh, things, and bring new things.

And that is not sustainable.

Our finite world, finite earth, we cannot have infinite economic growth on a finite planet.

And so we have to use the planetary, uh, uh, uh, planetary, natural world and natural gifts to us with a, a durable lasting, so everything should last for five years, 10 years, 20 years, and sometimes even last for next generation.

So these are the three words I use.

Beautiful, useful, durable.

An acronym for is the Bud principle, BUD, bud principle.

So if we can Bud Principle, that's a principle, elegant simplicity.

Beautiful, useful, durable.

I have a question from Yvonne, which is quite a pertinent one, given where we are in the world and it's around what's going on in Palestine and Israel, and she's wondering how can your beautiful soul enlighten us on this journey of finding peace among us humans?

What is going on Palestine, Israel, and also what's going on Ukraine and, and vis-a-vis Russia is a very sad and very unnecessary.

We have to find a solution where whole of humanity is one and where whoever you are, we are neighbors.

Palestine cannot be thrown away in the sea, or Israel cannot be thrown away in the sea.

They have to live next to each other as neighbors forever.

And so Israel has to talk to Hamas, talk to Hezbollah.

Why are you terrorists?

Why are you violent?

Why are you killing us?

You kill us, we kill you.

Where will it end?

Let's sit down together and have a cup of tea together.

And let's sit down together and find a common ground.

So that's what I will advise to Israelian, pa Palestinians to find a political solution.

There's no military solution of this conflict.

You can go on fighting.

Israel is very powerful, very strong, and you can kill a few thousand people.

But next generation in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, new children will be born, new terrorists will be born, and new attacks will come back.

You cannot dissolve violence with violence.

You cannot fight fire with fire.

You have to find water to quench the fire.

You have to find a, a political solution, a peaceful solution, where everybody can live together next to each other.

That is a message I want to give to, particularly to Israel because they are the powerful, they are the more kind of, more weapons and more arms and more military stronger than Hamas and Hezbollah and Palestinians.

But also I want to say to Hamas and Hezbollah that there is no solution by killing Israelis.

Uh, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, they one freedom against colonialism and imperialism and against racism with nonviolent means.

So give up your arms and adopt the, the ways of Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, and find a peaceful resolution to your problems.

That's my advice to Hamas and Hezbollah.

Renounce violence.

And my advice to Israel, renounce violence and find a political solution and live next to each other as good neighbors and help each other.

But also we need to remember that there are 8 billion people in this world.

7.5 or 7.8 billion people are living peacefully.

Mothers are looking after children, teachers are teaching children, doctors and nurses are looking after ill and sick and old, and farmers are growing food, craftsmen are making pots and clothes and beautiful uh, furniture.

So there's a lot of good things are also happening.

We must not just think the only problem in the world is, is Israel and Palestine and nothing else is good.

There is a lot of good in the world and people are living more peacefully than people are fighting with each other.

So we should celebrate the good humanity as well as challenge the bad actions of human beings and try to bring peace and, and and harmony between the warning parties.

That is my advice.

So we have a question from Tatjana, uh, and she's asking, what are your thoughts on the, the more short term thinking that is dominant in business today versus the longer term thinking that could allow us to become better ancestors?

Yes, yes.

So, long-term thinking is to bring the future generations in our consciousness.

And you may be aware or you may have heard that in uh, Wales, the Welsh government had put a new constitution that all their laws, all their policies, all their actions will take into account the interest of future generation.

My good friend who was the minister of the environment called uh, Jane Davidson, she brought this law that all our actions must take the interest of the future donations into account.

Otherwise, our policy just for ourselves is not good enough.

Could just imagine our ancestors have made good gifts, uh, and, and brought good things for us.

What we have received so much from our ancestors.

So we should leave some good life for our future generations.

So I would say that Welsh government's new Constitution could be a good example.

We do not inherit our land and our nature from our ancestors.

We borrow it from our future generations and our children.

So if we do not look after the interest of our children and grandchildren and great, great, great grandchildren, economy has to be economy for the millions of years to come.

It's not for few hundred years.

For billions of years, economy has to last.

That's the economy of.

So that economy has to be a circular economy rather than linear economy.

In linear economy, you take from nature, you use it, and throw it away.

On the landfills, in the ocean, in the river somewhere, outta the sight, outta the mind.

That is not a good economy for the future and for the long-term, long-term thinking.

The economy has to be circular, cyclical, whatever come from nature must go back into nature.

And if we had damaged nature, we restore nature.

But circular economy is economy for the long term and for future generations so that the economy of nature can last forever and ever, ever.

Thank you very much, Satish.

So we have a set of questions to do with your walking journey.

Uh, so I'm Gonna punch 'em together.

First with Betty she was asking did you always have that sense of trust or was it developed while you were walking around the world?

I would say it developed and I cultivated it because we learn, we learn to trust, we learn to love, we learn all these things.

The the seed is there in all of us.

Every human being has a seed of trust, like a a apple tree, and every apple has a seed for a new apple tree.

In the same way all human beings are born with a seed of trust.

But then you have to cultivate it.

So I had to, to always meditate on it and say I will trust and I will trust and I will trust.

And even if I'm cheated once in a while, I will be i'll, I will live with that cheating once in a while, then not trust and live all my life in mistrust and fear of being cheated.

It's a learning process in a way, cultivating.

So I cultivated trust by focusing on it.

So as you learn to play violin, as you learn to sing, everybody who can speak can also sing.

But if you don't learn to sing, you don't sing.

Everybody who can walk can also dance.

But if you don't learn to dance, you cannot dance, but potential to dance is there because we have two legs.

We can dance because we have a voice we can sing.

But you have to cultivate it.

You have to learn, learn to do it.

So I cultivated my trust and I, and as I grew and as I walked, I trusted more and that grew and I trusted more.

So it is a kind of combination of the two.

Potential is there, I also have to cultivate and I have to learn and I have to experience, I have to reinforce that I will trust and I will trust and I will trust.

Thank you.

Uh, we have a question.

This is from my sister, so she's getting a preferential treatment here.

Annalise is asking on your journey, did you carry anything with you?

Was there anything you took with you?

Uh, and if so, what were the, what were the things that you brought with you on this journey?

Yes.

I took with me a very simple rucksack, and that rucksack had a change of clothes and, and a, a few diary to make notes and, and, uh, remember um, the places and so on, so I could write a book.

And when I was, uh, traveling during that time, I had a little connection with a weekly Indian newspaper, uh, weekly magazine.

And so I was writing articles for that magazine.

So I was making notes.

A notebook and some pen and paper and a change of clothes, that was only, I think I had, nothing else.

But everywhere in every country, as seasons change.

People said, you are walking without money.

You are a pilgrim.

You are in our country.

How can we help you now winter?

Would you like some warm clothes, a warm hat?

Or your shoes are wearing out?

Will you want new shoes?

So people always gave us, uh, whatever we needed.

We were very, very fortunate and blessed to have a lot of support from peace groups, and we spoke at universities, we spoke at churches, we spoke at mosques, we spoke in schools, we went to see, uh, the teachers in, uh, every school, wherever we were, and find out if there was somebody English speaking, who could translate.

And so this way we cultivated a good relationship.

And we went to newspaper offices in every, every city, Tehran, Moscow, and we talked, gave our stories.

So Pravda, is Vestia, uh, the Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post, and BBC, all they reported our journey.

So we were connecting with people and people were helping us with clothes and shoes and, and food.

And so we did not carry very much just a kind of change of clothes and sleeping bag, we always had a sleeping bag because if we are in a village in Russia or in Afghanistan or in Iran, they don't have bedding, extra spare bedding, poor villages.

So we could sleep in our sleeping bag, even on the floor.

So that was our sleeping bag and few clothes and nothing else.

We have a question from Patrick now on this walk, and he's asking.

What was the greatest heartfelt insight you received while walking?

Greatest insight is that ultimately whatever your nationality, whatever your religion, whatever your politics, beyond all that, we are all humans.

If I went as an Indian, I meet a Pakistani.

If I went as a Hindu, I meet a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew.

But if I go as a human being, I meet human beings everywhere.

So whole cosmos.

Is my country.

Whole planet is my home.

Nature is my nationality and love is my religion.

That is the in the greatest insight that I found during the walk.

And I found that whether they were Russians or or, or Europeans or Americans or Afghanis or Iranis or Muslims or Christians, whatever they were, they were human beings and they welcomed me as a human being and there was no discrimination.

So that, having my attitude at that.

We are first and foremost humans, and then whatever we are is to celebrate.

I celebrate different nationalities, I celebrate different religions.

Diversity of language, diversity of religions, diversity of nationalities is to be celebrated and not to be fought and, and discriminated and condemned.

I'm gonna take you to the final question before we leave, from David.

And he is asking, what can we do to look after our souls and the souls of our children since social media and computers are such a powerful distraction these days?

Yeah, social media is, is a, is a very dis uh, distracting.

What we can do is to have time.

At the moment we have become too busy.

And we have no time for our children, we have no time to sit down together and eat our lunch properly or dinner properly or breakfast properly and, and have a time with children.

So children become hooked on social media because they don't get time with their parents, they don't get time with their friends.

So.

I would say the one thing we all need to say to ourselves that I have plenty of time.

I will spend some time with my children, I'll spend some time with my husband, I'll spend some time with my wife, with my parents, with my friends, with my neighbors, and have a human contact, human touch.

Technology is icing on the cake.

But the real cake is human, humankind and human relationship.

So your children, your parents, your husband, your wife, your neighbors, your friends, give them priority, you have time for them, and not just time for emails and uh, and the kind of links and Zooms and all the technology, business, business, business at no time for humans.

So if you can have a time for your children, then they will be away from social media and they'll be playing with you, they'll be talking with you, they'll be singing with you.

I have a grandchild, she's 13 years old and I spend a lot of time with her and she sings, she dances, she plays and all that.

I have two children and they, when they were young, I were a lot of time for them.

So I always believe that I have plenty of time.

When God made time.

He or she made plenty of it.

There's no short of time.

Time in eternal.

Wow.

Oh, I'm gonna have to spend some time this afternoon with my kids then.

Yes.

Well, thank you very much for your time.

I really appreciated it.

Uh, well it has been my pleasure.

And let us stay in touch and, and, uh, as I said, resurgence Magazine.

You can look at our website, Schumacher College.

I have written 10 books.

My books are The Radical Love is my latest book, Radical Love, so look out for it.

Elegant Simplicity, that's very irrelevant for business people.

Elegant Simplicity.

And there are many other books you can check out and stay in touch.

Thank you for having me.

As a last, uh, request.

I'd ask you please just to unmute, unmute yourselves, uh, and just, uh, yeah, offer your thanks to Satish and say goodbye.