Waiting is one of those things that none of us likes to do. So how do we learn to wait while also trusting the Lord and his timing? Brandi Nicole Williams, author of, “Legs Down, Prayers, Up: Six Keys to Unlocking Purpose While Waiting,” looks to answer this very question. She’ll also spend time discussing her role as the Director of the African American Church Evangelism Institute at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. Whether you’re learning to wait on the Lord in various areas of your life, or you’re wanting to learn what it’s like to navigate new leadership spaces, this T Time episode is for you.

00:24 Intro to today’s guest 

01:14 Brandi’s current ministry leadership role

04:06 What are some challenges you face within this role?

09:19 What are some things you enjoy about your leadership position?

14:57 What lessons have you learned or are you currently learning from this leadership space?

16:57 Self-advocacy matters and is a value worth having

21:49 Ways Brandi is currently serving with women

26:36 How would you describe your book?

28:36 What has learning to wait produced in your life?

34:14 Life after publishing a book

For video versions of episode 48 and onward visit us on Youtube.

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With, and About Women. I'm your host, Twanna Henderson, and as always, I want to remind you to like this broadcast and to definitely share it with someone in your life.

Well, I have a very exciting guest with us today. Today's guest is Brandi Nicole Williams. Brandi is the Director of the African American Church Evangelism Institute at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. Brandi obtained her master's degree in theological studies from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and is now obtaining her Ph. D. in organizational leadership at Eastern University. Her research explores the role of the black church and business creation. She envisions her research as a catalyst for developing innovative evangelism practices, and providing economic development solutions for the African American community. Brandi has over fifteen years of ministry, nonprofit, and consulting experience. She is also a licensed minister and author of the book, "Legs Down, Prayers Up: Six Keys to Unlocking Purpose While Waiting." Brandi, Welcome to T Time.

Brandi Williams: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Twanna Henderson: It's good to have you. Well, it sounds like you are involved in some really big things as it relates to evangelism. And, you know, of course, this is an area that's important now more than ever. In light of that, I want to just first ask you about your current ministry leadership role. And what exactly is your current ministry leadership role?

Brandi Williams: So as you mentioned in the introduction, I am the Director for the African American Church Evangelism Institute. And so we're committed to helping churches grow younger. And we do that by offering a two year program for senior pastors that helps them to address challenges that they're having in communication strategies, developing younger leadership pipelines, for example, and just even how to have more impactful outreach that is relational because that's what this generation is craving. They're craving relationships over the authoritarian models that, you know, tradition has given us. And so, you know, this summer, I'll actually be writing some curriculum, what I deem is “growing younger” curriculum, to help train the pastors that we work with that's based off of the research that we do here. So we have a research institute that we partner with here at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. And that's one of the things that I'm most excited about. Actually hearing from this generation about where they stand in their faith, their spiritual practices, their views on the church, so that we can store that information, and then equip churches and pastors to be able to connect with them successfully. So that's one of my favorite things that I do here at the Institute.

Twanna Henderson: You know, I love that term “growing younger.” You know, I don't know if that is a formal term or something, but I love that idea of growing younger because I think that's exactly what churches should be doing. And I know you as a millennial yourself.

Brandi Williams: I like to call myself the elder of the millennials.

Twanna Henderson: Right there on the cusp!

Brandi Williams: Yup!

Twanna Henderson: But with that, what have been some of the challenges, you know, in your role?

Twanna Henderson: I think that's excellent. Just in terms of how you frame that, I think one of my questions would be with the whole area of researching the role of the black church and the evangelism practices in the black church, have you found that there is a difference?

Brandi Williams: I think so across the board, when I mentioned our research that we've done here, so to be clear, so yes, we've done research with African American young adults or emerging adults, which would be individuals between 18 and 30 years old. But we have also had research teams that have gone into Asian churches, white churches, as well as Latino churches. So across the board, yes. The generation is craving the same thing. It's craving the authenticity. It’s craving the relational model. It's craving commitment to a call, to the community outreach efforts and things like that. So I will say across the board, what we are finding is that the generation across, you know, color and ethnicity, they are craving the same thing. So I would say that in terms of practices, I think it can look different. At the end of the day though, we have one standard curriculum that we use across the board, whether we're working with white churches, black churches, Latino churches, and that is all pointing them to embody evangelism, right? I think the church of old, and my lane is the African American church, but the church of old would say, “You know, just get them to church or evangelize the lost at any cost”, or things like that, right? But really, what we're wanting to do is connect them to Jesus. And I think that any church, no matter the color or ethnicity of the parishioners would do well to consider what are the on-ramp activities that the church could be doing that could draw people based upon their interest, right? A lot of times, and even in business, because I've done a lot of work with entrepreneurs in my past, even in business, like we like to offer people what we think they need as opposed to actually listening to what their needs are, and then shaping our practices to meet those specific needs.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I think that is so important. And you know, I like how you said that across the board its' the same, you know, with that demographic, but how we reach them may look differently. And I think that's important. So what is it you enjoy about doing that, in that leadership role?

Brandi Williams: So I've inherited an infant stage Institute. So the institute is in its third year of existence. And so anytime you're in early stages, generally, you're just making stuff happen. Which means that you may not have the proper structures in place. Systems. Processes. And so I'm the process girl. I like to, well a mentor of mine calls me the “process princess.” So you know, it's like, okay what are we doing? What are the steps that we're taking to get there? We know that this is a vision. What's the strategy for it? And so those are things that I bring to the table. And really that I just think that serves God's Kingdom well, because I think sometimes we can just have such a heart and passion for things, but we don't take the necessary precautions to give things the order and structure that they need to provide the greatest form of sustainability. So that's one of the things that I enjoy. And then again, with our research, we've started to go out and do workshops for ministry leaders, presentations for ministry leaders, that discusses trends that we're seeing with Gen Z, and then the trends that we see out in the world just based off other research that we've done, or prior research that has been done. And then we also share some of the findings from our own research. And that is my lane. I love it. I love to be in the room with ministry leaders. And because oftentimes, especially when you're older, and I even catch myself, you know, anytime you catch yourself saying "These young folks... all they do is..." My sorority sisters and I, we have a saying that we're like, "We can't be old and judgmental." Like we're inevitably gonna get older, but do we have to be judgmental? And so I think that taking a step back to when I'm leading those workshops and helping them present themselves to who in their lives are in that generation because I think it can be easy to come into a workshop like, "Oh, okay, you say you're gonna tell me what's up with Gen Z? Yeah, tell me what's up with them because all they do is this, and they're always on their phone, and they don't like to come to church, and they don't respect scripture." You know, and all these things like that. When actually, that's not even true from what the research shows. However, you know, having them to pause and say, "Let's name some of the folks in your life that fall into this category. Let's name some of those folks." Okay, so now we're present. We're grounded because we have real examples of who a face and a name that is a part of this generation. Now, let me explain to you what they're dealing with in this generation. Whether it's things going on in the economy. Whether it's the things that society is bombarding them with in terms of sexuality and identity. Let's talk about all those things so you can actually know what's going on in their world. Not from your perspective, in real time, what's going on in their world. And then let's talk about the research. And then let's talk about Scripture. And then let's talk about who you will be so that you can reach this generation. So yeah.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. You know, as you say that it makes me think about, you know, with the different age groups and generations, is the church relevant today to them?

Brandi Williams: So, and I'm strictly speaking from things that I'm recalling from research focus group, right? So they're saying, "Where is the church?” We heard repeatedly across the board across racial lines, the church was too quiet during George Floyd. You know, there was a time when the church were the main leaders in civil rights. Now we have an organization. And this is not to discredit the Black Lives Matter movement, but they're saying, "We don't know who that is. Are they credible?" Right? At one point, the church was this trusted resource, and we knew who our leaders were. We knew who were on the front lines. And so you have many that will say, "Don't just tell me what to do. Explain to me how to live out scripture practically." You even have folks in focus groups that were saying things like, "I'm not debating scripture with you. I'm not saying that I condone certain sins or that I don't think that I should live a life of holiness or righteousness. What I'm saying is, don't just show me your mountaintop. What were you doing in the valley? How did you get through it? And can you be real about that? And give me permission to be real about my struggles?"

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. You know, we learn lessons as we navigate through this whole leadership space. Are there leadership lessons that you're learning or have recently learned?

Brandi Williams: So I would say, so I actually, I just completed my, earlier, well, oh my goodness it's June already. So last month, last month actually, so I completed my first 90 days in my role as director. And I would say, just particularly because I'm in a male-dominated space, if I were talking to another woman, I would say, "Run the bio, sis." Like read the hard things. List all of the accomplishments. It says like, "Yes, I went to DePaul. Yes. I went to TEDS. Yes, I'm in a Ph. D. program. Yes, I actually have a certificate in Women's Entrepreneurship from Cornell University." So it's just like, all the things, name all the things because that's how men show up in the room, right? They're not bashful about it. Sometimes we can downplay or minimize things. And so I'm just in this period of my life and leadership where I'm really owning all the things that I am. I think that sometimes we think we have to choose, especially for those of us that God has given so many gifts to, and allows us to operate in varying spaces. Those of us that are ambidextrous, sometimes we can be uncomfortable, because we think we have to be doing this one particular thing. So learning to own all of that and bring all of that to the table is one thing. I would also say self-advocacy. I'm learning to advocate for myself. So, for example, I've inherited an early stage organization. In any setting, early stage can be messy. And you're going through the twists and turns to try to get it to where it needs to be. To get the mission to align with the vision, and day-to-day practices to align with the mission and vision. And so sometimes, you have to say, "This is a mess." Right? This is a mess.

Twanna Henderson: It's a hot mess!

Brandi Williams: It's a hot mess, right! "This is a mess. Can you clean this up, and then bring it back to me. Clean it up as best as you can cause right now I don't think its cleaned up as best as it could be. Clean this up, and then bring it back to me.” Right? And I think, for example, during COVID. So during COVID, like during the shutdown and everything, I took my cape off. I was done being the strong black woman that, you know, I'm gonna come in here, and I'm gonna fix everything, and I'm gonna work out miracles... no I'm not doing that cause we are in a partnership. How do we work best together? I don't know the answers all the time. So let's brainstorm this thing and figure it out. So I think being able to advocate for myself in that way, be able to say no, be able to ask somebody to go back to the drawing board and bring it back to you. And I think even in self advocacy, being able to advocate for an integrative life. Meaning that, yes, this role, this leadership role that I have is a priority, but I also have other things in my life that are important to me, too. And I think that, and I don't know if it's just because I've had prior to coming into this particular role… I was a self employed contractor for 10 years. So I'm just used to having high levels of autonomy and flexibility. But in that though, I learned to negotiate, and to be able to be straight about what it is that I want and what's important to me. And I think that that's a value worth having.

Twanna Henderson: I think those are some great leadership lessons. Particularly, the self advocacy and the permission to be able to navigate several lanes well. You know, I'm all for that. I'm a person that I may be in this lane and that lane or whatever because that's just who I am. And so, and that's okay.

Brandi Williams: Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: You know, you mentioned several of the schools that you've attended and graduated from. You've accomplished quite a bit in your short years, or young years. I'm interested to know about your ministry and your leadership journey.

Brandi Williams: Yeah, so I will say that I first began to, so I accepted Christ at the age of twelve. But then there was a specific night. I was 16 after attending a revival where I had a very vivid memory. I have very vivid memories of an encounter that I had with the Holy Spirit. And so it was at that time at 16 that I knew that I was called to public speaking ministry. And, but I didn't know what that meant. Now I saw women in my church that I grew up in. But just overall, the environment to me at 16 was very stuffy. And, you know, I said, "Well Lord, I don't know what you're asking of me. But if that's what it is, I'm not doing that." And so I actually ran from my calling until the age of 25. So a lot of knocks and bruises brought me right on back to the Lord.

Twanna Henderson: Won't it?

Brandi Williams: And he says, "Okay, so now, back to what we were doing. Back to where I told you to do." And so then, around 27, is when I went to seminary because I knew exactly what he was telling me. Now I didn't understand what at the time, what going to seminary school was because, you know, if I were to tell my testimony, and I was working in nightclubs, and doing VIP hosting and all kinds of stuff, so I was in the streets. So, I literally went from in the streets to seminary.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And just being obedient.

Twanna Henderson: And that's what I like about God. That's how he, you know, I mean, he will reel you in, and it seems to make no sense at all.

Brandi Williams: Yup.

Twanna Henderson: You know. Now, I know you have a call to women. What are some of the ways that you are currently serving with women?

Brandi Williams: So, here lately, when I speak about my own leadership journey, I've been paying attention to how other women respond to me. And, to me, that's been a signal to say, "Oh, you have something that you want [from] me. There's something I should be doing." But, you asked about my general, just my ministry and leadership journey. My initial days of ministry was with women primarily because I used to blog and do a lot of women's empowerment events and things like that. But fast forward, I started to do a lot of work with entrepreneurs. I was working with a Christian nonprofit that offered entrepreneurship development classes. And so I started to spend a lot of time in that lane. And if you don't know, like, the entrepreneur space is very heavily dominated by black women. And so, and that's really the majority of who would come through the classes and whatnot. And so, anyway, ministry and marketplace is just a burden. And I have to bridge the two together and to teach other people how to do it. So, this fall, it's my goal to work with four to six women who desire to, that know that God is calling them to a ministry marketplace endeavor, but they just don't know how to connect the dots between their purpose and gifting and the actual product or service that they may be able to offer. So that's one of the upcoming ways, and so for any listeners, that's on the podcast, if that's you, if I just described you, you're welcome to reach out. Because that's just been on my heart to do so. So yeah.

Twanna Henderson: How can they connect with you?

Brandi Williams: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and Twitter, @BrandiNicoleLeads. So that's Brandi with an i. Brandi Nicole Leads. L E A D S. And then you can also email me at brandi.williams@wheaton.edu.

Twanna Henderson: Okay, great. So hopefully you all get that and you will reach out. Now, you know, the past three years with a pandemic has literally changed how we move, how we act, how we lead. How has the pandemic shaped how you show up today?

Brandi Williams: Yeah, and I mentioned a little bit earlier just taking off that cape. And I think just being, giving yourself permission to say, "I'm not okay", when you're not okay, is one of the things that I take with me, or that has shaped who I am today, and that I just I don't have to have it all together all the time.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Brandi Williams: And I would say is one of the biggest things. And so, the pandemic was particularly very challenging for me, particularly as a single woman. So, single woman, shut down in the house. At the time I was living in Nashville. My family, you know, I'm now back in the Chicago area, and my family, all of my immediate family is here in Chicago. So just that in itself was challenging. And so the mental fortitude and just trusting God in a different way to get through it. And being okay, I will say this, for the time, because I'm always somebody that's doing a lot, I think you can be doing a lot, but the question should always be, "Am I aligned with God and what He has for me to be doing at this time." So I was able to see ways in which I was misaligned. And so being willing to let go some of the things that I was working on at that time, and just go before God with open hands to say, "What do you want from me? Is this even a viable option? Or is it just the wrong timing? Or should I just scratch it all together?" But I think the more we can have open hands, and regularly checking in with ourselves to ensure that we are aligned with God's purposes, right?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: You hear folks talk about like, a good idea versus a God idea.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Brandi Williams: I want the God stuff.

Twanna Henderson: Absolutely. Yeah. I do too. Yeah, that's good stuff. Now I have to ask you about your book.

Brandi Williams: Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: “Legs Down, Prayers Up: Six Keys to Unlocking Purpose While Waiting.” Now that's a loaded title.

Brandi Williams: Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: How would you describe the book?

Brandi Williams: Yeah, you know, I would just say it's a conversation with a nonjudgmental sister/friend is how I would describe it. Now, you don't like a raw testimony and unsugared advice, then the book’s not for you.

Twanna Henderson: Okay!

Brandi Williams: But, you know, essentially, I was looking to, and as you, as we continue to get to know each other, I'm just pretty straightforward. Like, just call it what it is, right? Like I was out there, and I needed the Lord. So I said, You know what, let me put that down, and let me pick this up. You know? That's really a straightforward testimony of how I drew closer to God instead of the men that I was dealing with at that time. And I, it's always been my prayer for it to be a resource for women who, who desire to wait, and who have committed, not even just waiting, but committed to truly knowing your worth, and pursuing a life of purpose. And walking in for you.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that's good. Now the subtitle is six keys to unlocking purpose while waiting. How do you define waiting in this context, and what has waiting produced in your life?

Brandi Williams: Hmm. Having to wait, and it's not even just as it pertains to sexual desires in marriage, I think waiting in general is to have a hope or trust in God. An expectancy in him that he will bring things to fruition. It is about yielding to his timing, his purposes, his ways, which are so so much greater than ours. It's about not tying God to an unexpected end. Because sometimes we wait. You know, I've come in contact with women who wait, choose to wait as a bargaining chip of a sort with God. Like if I do this, then you do that. And it's like, that's not how that goes. And so then how do I trust, hope, and have expectancy with God in all areas of my life? How do I pursue that for his best for my life? Yeah, so that's how I define that. And I would just say that in choosing to wait, obviously, I have the accomplishments, right? Like I told you, I went to seminary school at 27, so I've been rolling ever since. Achievements and things like that, but I just think that again, that freedom, Galatians five and one says that we were freed to be free. But what is it to maintain that freedom? To constantly throw off the things that entangle us and the snares of sin? And then I just think overall, just boldness and an authenticity, and focus and direction. And not that I always get it right. But I really, truly do believe that I've had a better chance of living a peace-filled life and just an overall life of fulfillment because I've chosen to lean into God in this particular way in my life.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, and waiting is one of those things that none of us likes. I mean, it's just one of the hardest things, you know, for us to do. And so I think that is so important that we do learn how to lean into God as much as we can. So real quick, give us the six keys in how one unlocks purpose.

Brandi Williams: So the six keys are: repentance, restoration, right relationship, righteousness, response, and rest. So they're all rooted in Scripture. And so I like to say it like this, I like to say like, "Lord, I align myself with you," so that's repentance. "Bring me back from the darkness or wherever I was that I wasn't supposed to be. Bring me back from there," that's the restoration. And then, "May I have the proper perspective of you," that's right relationship. "About who you say that I am," right? That's righteousness. But we're exchanging what we've known ourselves to be for who he says that we are. And then response is just simply, in light of all of this, all those things I just mentioned, "How would you have me to go out into the world to serve the people that you have called me to?" And then the prayer is the rest, right? "Lord, I trust you in the process." Because when we rest, it's really and ultimately saying that we trust that.

Twanna Henderson: Absolutely. So what's one way that we unlock purpose?

Brandi Williams: So I'll say the, I'll go with rest, right? Because each of the keys, I think, are a pathway to purpose. So if we say rest, for example, "Lord, I trust you in the process," that means when he tells me to go left, even though I want to go right, that I'm gonna go left, even though I have no idea. It's ambiguous. It seems unclear to me. But if I keep choosing to go in that direction, eventually, what I wasn't able to see will be revealed to me. So that's one way. I would say that, you know, when we talk about restoration, which is another key. Restoration is that, "God I've been over here doing my own thing," right? It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be something extremely wild and just, you know, over the top, but we do our own thing all the time, every day. Right?

Twanna Henderson: Absolutely.

Brandi Williams: Every day, you know, we have to repent for the ways in which we decide to do things, when we do things in and of our flesh. And so like, we talked about good stuff versus God stuff, constantly pursuing the God stuff, knowing that I won't always get it right.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: I won't always get it right, but then that's where that righteousness comes in. There's righteousness. That's where that repentance comes in, you know, willingness to confess. And I thought, "That's a rinse and repeat process." That's not just a one time thing, it is an all the time thing. And so, those are examples of how I would say I use the keys to unlock purpose.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I know the book is five years old as of last November. Real quick, what is life and waiting been like for Brandi Nicole since publishing the book?

Brandi Williams: Yeah, okay! So, I was 35 when I published the book. I will be 41 this year. So, still waiting! And I honestly, so I think when I published the book, at that time it had been nine years. And let me say this too, because it's not just always nine years. It's 10 years, it's however many years. The years don't matter. What matters is the freedom that was obtained because I chose to walk with the Lord and to obey God. And actually, in the, I'd probably say the first five years, I had celebrations. Like I would go out to dinner with friends and things like that, because I was so thrilled about what I had escaped from. All the turmoil of my past that I had escaped from. So let me give that context that this is not just about, "Oh, I want to keep my legs close." Like it's not just that. You know, it's about that God saved me from something, and I am choosing to walk with Him in this way, even though I don't always understand it. Even though I don't always like it. Some days, I generally am a person of big faith. Somedays all I got is a mustard seed. And it's just like, I have to re-up and be like, "Okay, here. Just, just take it because that's all I have today." And so in terms of what life has been like since that time, yeah, I have times where I've been angry with God. I think I got to year 10, and I'm like, "Okay, so really, what are we doing?" And so then, I think, again, I mentioned it earlier, giving up my timeline.

Twanna Henderson: Mmhmm. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Giving up my alleged expectation, and choosing to submit and to yield and to be honest. There's no way you walk this thing out without being honest.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Okay, so, fortunately, God has blessed me with wise counsel and with people that I can confide in when the struggle is real. Actually, the struggle was real a couple of weeks ago. I was on the phone with a friend. And I was just like, "you know what? You know, I don't know how much longer I'm gonna do this!" And so she, you know, she let me get it all out. And she was like, "You done?" because at the end of the day, she knows me. And she knows that I'm gonna continue to walk it out. But she gives me space to say what needs to be said. And that makes all the difference.

Twanna Henderson: It's so important to have safe people that we can do that with. Yeah, this has been so good. So, before we go, there are women who are listening to this podcast, particularly millennial women, who are either serving in leadership or who are wondering if they should be or are even qualified to be in leadership, and are really seeking to unlock their purpose. Can you pray for them on today so that they may gain confidence, clarity, and even confirmation?

Brandi WIlliams: Yeah. "Oh, God, I thank you. I thank you for the women that you have called for such a time as this. Thank you for every gift that you've placed within them. Thank you for every fiber of their being. Just, who you are. The family that you've given them. The location that you've placed them in. The peers, the spheres of influence that you have given them, oh, God. I come against every tendency to compare, God. That seed of comparison that has caused them to second guess themselves or to shrink back or to all away throw away the calling that they know that you have placed upon their lives, God. So, I speak confidence into their lives, God. I speak, pour redemption into their lives. May they know that you are a God of full restoration. Know that you are a God of healing. You are a God of peace. You are a sovereign God. That you will use everything in their life to equip them and to anoint them to go out and reach those that you have called them to, God. I pray for clarity, God, in their spirit and in their minds. I pray for peace, God. Lord, I pray that you would bring them allies and mentors and just peers that can walk with them in the journey. Sometimes the journey seems so daunting because we feel like we're going at it alone, oh God. But I pray that today that you would whisper something very unexpected in their ear. That they would know that you are with them. And that you are bringing the people that they need. That you are forming a tribe around them so that they can complete the assignment that you have given them. Lord, you in your word, you tell us that you are perfecting us and that you are establishing us and that you are settling us. And so I just pray that the women who are listening to this podcast, God, would just cling to the hope and the future that you have ordained for them, oh God. Give them confidence. Give them wisdom. Give them peace, and give them joy in the process. May they have fun in the process, God. That you don't have to be all serious all the time, and that we can love you. We can honor you. We can look good, and we can have fun with it. And I just pray all these things in Jesus' name, amen.”

Twanna Henderson: Amen! Well, Brandi, it was so good chatting with you today.

Brandi Williams: You too!

Twanna Henderson: Thank you so much for sharing and just continued success for the future.

Brandi Williams: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Twanna Henderson: Well to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. I'm Twanna Henderson. Be blessed of the Lord.