Have you ever had that knot in your stomach when your partner is spending a lot of time with someone else, or that emotional reaction when a colleague gets promoted over you? Then it’s likely you’ve experienced this week’s topic: jealousy.

In this episode Clare and Aileen discuss what jealousy is, where it comes from and tips on what you can do about it. They will give you a set of tools to help you work with your jealous emotions in a better way when you feel them welling up inside you.

Dip into some of the things Clare and Aileen chat about in this episode:

02:42 Jealousy – an emotional response

11:01 The three faces of jealousy

15:05 How jealousy impacts others

17:18 Tips on how to deal with jealous emotions

21:43 What is jealousy telling you about your life?

28:04 Choosing the right people to talk to

30:06 Is it true, is it absolutely true?

Want to know more?

Visit our website: The Sex and Relationships Podcast for more information on the issues discussed in this episode. You can also Ask Clare a question or suggest a topic for future episodes.

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About the Sex and Relationships Podcast

This podcast is for anyone looking for information or help with their sex lives or relationships. In this season your hosts Clare Prendergast and Aileen Gonsalves deep dive into the world of relationships to give you insights, advice and top tips to help guide you through your relationships.

Your hosts

Clare Prendergast is a sex and relationships therapist and draws on her knowledge and years of experience in the therapy room to give you help and guidance.

Aileen Gonsalves is fascinated in human behaviour and drawing on her many years in the theatre has developed the unique Gonsalves Method which helps people be more present and develop authentic connections with those around them.

Clare 0:04

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Sex and Relationships podcast. I'm Clare Prendergast and I'm here with my colleague Aileen Gonsalves.

Aileen 0:11

Hi, everybody.

Clare 0:12

Hi, Aileen. And today we're going to be talking about Green Eyes. We're talking about jealousy. What jealousy is, when jealousy might show its face. How it can come in and erode all sorts of relationships. And then ta da, what you can do about it. Oh, Aileen, do you want to kick us off?

Aileen 0:36

Well, it's such an interesting subject, isn't it? Because it’s, I always have got confused for years about jealousy because I mixed it up with envy. I never know really what jealousy is and what envy is. I think they're the same sort of word. And I think for some reason it's relevant, but because I don't really know what it - do you have the definitions there, Clare?

Clare 0:53

The most succinct way of differentiating between the two is when I'm feeling jealous, I want to keep what I have. And when I'm feeling envy, I want what you have.

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

So, there's much more complicated and detailed descriptions, but I just think that's really, that's just... Yes, and I think they overlap. You know, if one's in the room quite often the other one will come in the room as well. But I think that's just the pithiest way of defining the difference. Yes. I want to keep what I have when I feel jealous. So, whether it's my partner or my job or my place in a group or, you know, it’s mine, it’s mine, I want to keep it.

So that feels under threat. If I'm feeling jealous, that feels the thing feels under threat. Someone's going to go for my partner. Someone's trying to get my job. That kind of thing?

Yes. And I'm jealously holding on to it. And when I'm feeling envious, I'm wanting your job, or I'm wanting your partner, or I'm wanting your holiday or your house. I'm envying you.

Your life. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah and that really makes me think of living in a world that we think things are scarce, and so that we have to really fight for things, or hold on to them, or be very scared that somebody's going to take something away from us, or it must come from when we're really young, I suppose a toy getting pulled away from us or something.

Yeah. Yeah.

And with siblings, I guess, you know, seeing brothers and sisters, they get something. You know, I'm the second child. I'm the youngest. So, I think if anything, my older sibling may well have been jealous of me. I asked her, actually, sometimes. Was she jealous? And she always says, not really. She says, I was really pleased I was dying for you to come along, which I think is interesting.

I do think it's interesting, but I also think it's quite a taboo emotion. So yes, I think that's the other thing that's important to put in the mix is jealousy is an emotion. It's a feeling, you know, like sadness or anger or disappointment or frustration. You know, it is just a feeling, but it's one of the feelings where there is a lot of taboo associated with it. It's not nice, you know. Nice, nice girls don't feel jealous. Nice girls are happy that they've got a little sister. It is a taboo emotion. And I think if we can kind of enrol you into noticing that and getting past that. Because whilst we hold it as a taboo, it's going to be much harder to notice and it's going to be much harder to work with because we're pushing it down, we're pushing it down, we're pushing it down, and our behaviour is being polluted by it, but we're not actually working with it in its purest form because we're denying its presence.

I really resonate with that in terms of work jealousy. I'm an actor, you know, trained as an actor, and we left drama school. Oh my gosh, you know, felt very jealous when people were getting agents first, when suddenly the phone was ringing for them. And what's so fascinating is it really separates you from people because, you know, we all left college very hopeful. But you started not telling people if you were getting jobs or getting auditions and you had this terrible feeling in your body. It is a feeling you're right. But we suppress that massively. Because are you meant to sort of pretend, you're excited for other people? People then didn't share their news at all. I know now when I teach on my courses, I'm teaching in a drama school in the third year, in their final year. I always say be really mindful about allowing yourself to celebrate with each other. And it's interesting what you're saying. It's okay. You can feel jealous but still be happy for someone. That's what the journey that I had to go on. Going, oh, because I couldn't bear the idea, I was jealous. It made me feel like a terrible person. It was this dark side of me and. And actually, no, it's completely natural, I guess, isn't it? Of course. We just feel like, oh, you know, I wanted that.

So, it is. I mean, I guess another reason we push it down is it's often a very painful feeling to feel. It sort of is a kind of mash up of fear and insecurity and sometimes anger. And it can also stem from low self-esteem. So those examples you're giving is, if I'm already prone to feeling less than and not valuing myself, not esteeming myself, and then you get the parts. It's just a perfect storm for jealousy to kick in. And then if I then on top of that, tell myself I'm not allowed to feel jealous. It's just layering up, ramping up. Whereas these are all things we can work on. These are all things we can address, but that's we're going to come to that later, aren't we? But it's painful. It's uncomfortable.

Yeah, it's really interesting. It's making me think of Othello. Shakespeare's Othello is the kind of famous sort of play on jealousy, because basically Othello, his friend Iago sort of pollutes his mind against his new wife was very controversial, them getting together. She loves him. They get together. He loves her. And then suddenly he spends the whole play getting increasingly jealous, and Iago throws stuff in his way that makes him feel that something's going on with her and somebody else with terrible consequences. No spoiler alerts here, you know, I won't tell you what happens. But, you know, I never thought about that, you know, because I suppose the work, there's all sorts of reasons why we do feel jealous or envious of other people. And it does come down, I'm sure, to our own feelings of not quite being feeling our own value or our sense of self-worth, or that we are good enough or, you know, if I'm with that person, it means I am a good person. If I get that job, I am the best actor. It's dangerous because it's validation, really, that we're underneath it all.

Exactly. We're looking outside of ourselves for validation and evidence of our worth rather than my value is my value independent of these external things. So, you know, in intimate relationships, I mean, I would like to argue it's a kind of it's an inevitable ingredient in an intimate relationship, that there will be moments in days and weeks where jealousy will bubble up to the surface, and if it is taboo for you, then you will push it down. And yet, if you can see it's just something that comes in. Like today, I feel sad. Today I feel jealous. Today I feel happy. We can then interrogate our emotions and go, what's going on? Why am I feeling this today? And it might be if in my intimate relationship, my worth is dependent on you, your love, your devotion, your attention, your care for me. Then if your attention is elsewhere, you've got a new hobby or you've, you know, you've stayed out later than you said or whatever it is. You know, jealousy easily can just kick in because I'm so in need of that. And then in intimate relationships, the risk of that is that the partner knowing you have that vulnerability, the partner can then try and adapt their behaviour to help you not have those feelings. So come home a bit early or give up the hobby, or let go of friends or... And before you know it, you've kind of co-created this kind of, I mean, I hate this word because it's so jargony, but codependent kind of mash up of your sense of safety and stability is dependent on me doing what I do, and my sense of safety depends on you doing what you do. And we're neither of us are being fully ourselves. But it's, you know, one of the big things that's in the mix there is this risk of jealousy.

I've never done that before properly thought of it as a feeling. It feels like this other thing that has to be dealt with. And it's also much bigger than a feeling. And so, then I rank it much higher. I rank it as dark, I rank it as shadow. I then do loads of in my head analysis of it that's probably useless and go in circles trying to solve whatever's happening. And I think you're absolutely right. You can get into that really intellectual thing with partners going, well, you know, if you just did this, how can we how can we work this out? I'm feeling jealous. But that's because you, you have coming back home late. And then they said, okay, well, I'll just come home earlier. I'll text you when I'm on my way home or I'll maybe I won't. And you're right, we do start absolutely changing our behaviour to fit in with making the other person feel okay about something. Whereas of course, if we just said, yeah, I'm feeling a bit jealous today, I'm feeling a bit angry today. I feel a bit sad today. I mean, the same is true of all emotions. If we could just be that light with them.

It is and jealousy kind of has is a bit hidden because you think about other emotions that have been also pathologised. I mean, one is depression, one is anxiety. I mean, depression and anxiety are now kind of clinical conditions. You can go to the doctor and get medication to treat them. And when I'm working with clients and I go, well, yes, I mean, there is a clinical condition that is called depression and there is a clinical condition that is called anxiety. But you can also experience depression and anxiety as just regular emotions. And jealousy is the same. It's you know, how do we claim back these, this emotional, um, sort of rainbow of feelings as, as just feelings and, and like those other two, it's a gateway to insight and understanding. If we can take it off the taboo shelf and, and just recognise it, like you say, as an emotion.

In so much of literature and everything we watch, you know, we that character of the jealous person is seen as this very bad thing. You know, it's a thing that we've got to do something about.

If it's left to run its course, it can lead to, I mean, horrific things. I mean.

Terrible things.

Those things don't happen in in art because they're made up. They happen in art because they are real risks. And with jealousy. I think it's quite helpful to think of it in three categories. There's reactive jealousy, which is, you know, um, my partner's having an affair. I am flooded with jealousy. And there's been this revelation and I'm full of jealousy. Or in the polyamorous community, you know, they regularly have to negotiate and discuss jealousy when a new person comes into the system. But then there's suspicious jealousy, which is what you're describing. Iago fuelling in Othello. It's jealousy that is driven by thoughts and distrust. It's not actually responding to something that's happened. It's essentially, it's made up. And when I'm, you know, working with clients who are, you know, maybe they're demonstrating some really concerning behaviours, you know, they're going through their partner's phones or back in the day, it would be opening post or going through pockets or do you know, invading their partner's privacy because their jealousy is, is consuming them and is driving them to think they have to look for proof. And, you know, pulling that back and just being able to go, look, this is about you. And these behaviours are not okay. You know, it's not okay to go through your partner's emails. We're allowed privacy even in intimate partnerships. I'm allowed a private life even though I'm in an intimate relationship with you. And so are you. My job, in my intimate relationship with you is to trust you. And if I'm not trusting you, then I have some work to do. Or we have some work to do.

We have some work. Because in a way, I'm just thinking, if you don't trust your partner and you go through their phone or you track where they've been on their phone, or you do all those sorts of weird things. If in fact, you don't do that, but you have a conversation with them about it and say, because I think what we're talking as well here is about trust.

Yeah. Well, so jealousy is the antithesis of trust, isn't it?

Exactly. Because if you trust them, then you might have that honest conversation. Whereas if you just simply say, even if you say, do you know, today I wanted to look through your phone because I really felt like something was going on. I can feel it in your behaviour. Something is wrong. And I want to say to you, please tell me rather than hide the thing, because I think we need to talk about it in the open.

Well, it's interesting that, isn't it? Because even the way you frame that, you know, today I really wanted to go through your phone. Your behaviour is different. Can we talk about it? But it's a different conversation if you start with today, I wanted to go through your phone. I was flooded with jealousy. I was having all sorts of suspicious thoughts. You came in an hour later last night than usual. I don't know if that means anything, but this is what I've been doing today. It's like admitting I'm the one who's having this jealousy experience, and you are going to be impacted because you love me, but I'm the one who's doing it. It's a very different conversation. But just before we move on, I do just want to speak about the final form of jealousy, which is what you're referencing in Othello, which is pathological jealousy.

Ah

And that is in the ballpark of mental health. You know, that is you know, I talked about clinical depression, clinical anxiety, you know, jealousy when it's pathological. The things that we're going to be talking about today around how to manage it and how to address it. It's not going to touch that, you know, it's yes, it's a much more sinister and serious ballpark. But in the reactive jealousy and the suspicious jealousy, we've definitely got some things to offer I think listeners who are finding that, you know, it's a part of their daily struggle. It's in their lives.

My fear would always be if I sense jealousy was around. I get very defensive and very kind of weird about it because I want to say, I want my freedom. I should be able to smile at anyone I want to smile at, and I might have thoughts about that person's cute or that person's this. But why don't you know that I love you and I want to be with you, you know? So, I'm irrationally kind of very strident in my defensiveness around it, actually, which isn't great.

Well, but I think you’re pointing to something that is really useful to speak to, which is this, um, the impact of jealousy on the other person. You know, I was talking to in the week about someone I know who has a partner with a range of challenges. Work has been intermittent lately. Their energy levels are quite low. Do you know they're having a tough time, and it is being expressed by relentlessly either suspecting my pal as cheating and having an affair, or asking them, why don't you cheat? Why don't you have an affair? Because I'm so rubbish. You know, you could do so much better. And for partners, it is exhausting being on the receiving end of those two kinds of just rants, really. Either you are or you should. And so, yes, I think actually to my ears, listening to you, it's music to my ears. Aileen, someone who is just unashamedly willing to say, this is who I am. And if you're going to find that difficult, let's stop now. Do you know there's no point moving this any further forward. And some people would say, I can't. That would be really hard for me. I can't cope with that. But you're communicating who you are, and you're also communicating that you're not willing to stop being that person. And I think that is a really valuable ingredient in long term intimate relationships. I am who I am, you know, as long as you're not being cruel, it's, you know, this is who I am, and this is how I move through the world.

I wonder if it's time for us to move into what to do about it. And you've been blown away by the possibility or that in my world, the reality that it is an emotion. But then I think as well, if it suddenly hits you, I'm feeling jealous rather than moving into acting on the feeling. So, you know, I'm going to pick up your phone and look at your messages, or I'm going to phone, you know, a friend and go, you won't believe what they've just done. Um, I'm going to take a moment and I'm going to notice where I'm feeling this in my body. So, by doing that, you're basically saying yes to its presence in your system. So “Oh, I'm having the jealousy feeling, I'm going to take a beat. I'm going to pause, I'm going to breathe, and I'm going to see where I am feeling it in my body. What are the physical sensations of this jealousy?” It just allows it to, to ground.

And then it's there's a curiosity. That is what we're thinking about these feelings. And sometimes if it's jealousy about, you know, you're going off and you're giving your time to these people to do sport and you're leaving me out, is it showing me something that I want to do? You know, obviously I don't want to go and join you with sport because I've admitted sport's not my thing. But do I want to go and do something? Is it revealing that I don't have a passion. I don't have a thing that I really love checking in on every week or whatever. Because that's the thing about sport, isn't it? It comes around so regularly. Is it showing me something that I really want, whereas, you know, so with the sport example, it's like, you know, I've been thinking, I'm not into sport, I'm not interested in sport. That's just boring. For example, go and do that elsewhere, then I'm jealous that you've taken me at my word and I've gone to do it elsewhere. So is it. Actually, I think I don't want sport, but actually these feelings. What is there in you doing that, that I do want?

Sort of looking underneath the story that you're telling yourself, you know, what is underneath the jealousy. Because sometimes we go to the easy fix, which is it's the person. Oh, you want to spend time with John? I'll go and then we start getting upset about that. Maybe asking yourself some questions, as you say, be curious really tangibly. Just what is it I am jealous of? You know, the time, the not being here? The fact they can do something I can't do is, and as you say, absolutely. “What is the thing I would like to be happening here” You know, it's not necessarily being with the person. And if it is about being with the person, then am I making quality time with my person to do my thing?

Yes.

It's not that I want to go and do sports. I want to be with you. I'm missing time with you. And sometimes we can't get that time. But even saying I'm missing time with you; I think we need to have a date night. You know,

I think you're absolutely right. It could be revealing that. And it's not uncommon when I'm with couples where one of them, you know, they have different ideas of what is a reasonable amount of time to spend together. And, you know, and for one person, it could be every moment that you're not at work needs to be with me. And for the other person, it's like, well, actually, no, after work, I, you know, I go and do sport, and I see my friends and I do my workouts and I and I and it's and it's navigating that because that isn't unreasonable. So, the jealousy could be pointing to I don't have any hobbies. I've let my friendship slide. It's exposing a poverty on my side of the resources in my life. And actually, you going off and having all these cool things to do. Even if I don't want to do them, you know, it's like one-on-one client. I mean, his perception of her friends is they are a nightmare. The last thing he wants to do is go out with her friends. But at the same time, it's like, well, what do I want to do that's that I want to do? It’s like, I mean, he gets it's not reasonable to say you can't go and see your friends. So, it is pointing to the fact that you have some work to do. Some need of yours that suits you isn't being met and projecting it onto the partner, making it the partner's fault that you're feeling jealous.

It may be once you've drilled down and you've looked into it and you've done your work. You know, it might be that your partner's never giving you any time. And then absolutely, that is a conversation you need to have. It's like, you know, we're meant to be each other's significant other. And I never see you. Do you know, and that's kind of like, well clearly, I'm not significant. You know, that is a conversation to happen. So, the jealousy is almost always pointing to something you haven't noticed. So, taking it off the taboo shadow shelf and just saying, oh, this is information giving that if I have the courage to go into, to feel it, to drill down into, to interrogate, I'm going to discover things that will make my life more fulfilling, more the life I want to be living.

Yeah, because it's so easy to just be interested in the, um, the blame stuff. It's the most dramatic thing. You know something feels wrong; we don't go Something feels wrong. I need to look at myself to see if there's a solve in that we go something feels wrong it's in what you're doing. We could really easily look outside ourselves and blame the other person's activities and whatever they're doing, and we can get quite righteous about that. You know, if the first time something feels wrong because you're starting to recognise the sensations as you say and meaning it could be that your hands feel a bit sweaty or your throat's constricted, or, you know, the body's give so many signals. And it's so funny when we're acting in plays and directing, if we're trying to look at the character of Othello, if I'm working with the actor playing Othello, you know, it's interesting. You'll start looking at those physicality tells and say, you know, are they more distracted? Are they tense in the jaw? You know, you start noticing physicality things to do with these things. We always think about where do they feel it in the body. You know, because it's such a revealing thing. It tells you everything that something's wrong. But then, yeah, you just should be going what do I need to do here? Self-talking is so useful, I find. Taking yourself for a walk and just going, okay, I'm feeling jealous. But it's a really interesting thing to just ask a basic question how am I feeling at different points in your day just how am I feeling? And if you're allowed to go, actually, I'm feeling a bit jealous today.

And then are you brave enough to immediately address it with a partner? And again, in that same way of going, I don't know what's wrong here. I think I'm feeling jealous. I think I'm a bit jealous that you're going out with that person. I think I'm a bit jealous because I think they're really pretty, and I've not been feeling very pretty at the moment because I'm putting on weight and, you know, I'm perimenopausal, just telling you my life. But doing that, you just go, yeah, so, you think, oh yeah, maybe I'm not so attractive or.. And then it isn't that thing of going, you must now tell me I'm attractive. The next step surely is going I think I need to look at my health. I think I need to go shopping and get some clothes and feel a bit better. I need to go and do my hair. I need to just, you know, have I need to sleep more so I haven't got big bags around my eyes. You know, it's so much this stuff we talk about. Claire is looking back at ourselves. And what's so encouraging about that, I guess, is we can do something about that.

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Because, I mean, there will be occasions when we feel jealous and there absolutely are grounds and our partner has been straying, or that colleague has got the promotion and hasn't told us. You know, we are intuitive creatures and there will be times when we're intuiting and out and it's showing up with these jealous feelings. But, I mean, I would bet all I have that that is a minute percentage of the times that we feel jealous. We will feel jealous most of the time for no reason to do with them. It's almost always information about I have fallen into a less than place. Me, my body, my appearance, my life, my job, my whatever it is, is less than. And therefore, you know I'm jealous of you. And if you've come home an hour later than you've said, and I've been spending an evening feeling less than. And then you do that, of course, when you walk through the door, I go after you. You know, you've come back an hour late it's all directed at you. And the person who is an hour late, you know, is on the back foot is probably quite willing to go. It is my fault that you're feeling wretched. But actually, if there is the time to take a pause and to do the work, it's kind of like, actually, I've been feeling wretched all evening. You, being an hour late just gave me the excuse to pin it on you and make you the problem rather than, yes, I've got some work to do.

It can also be really useful to write in a notebook. I'm feeling jealous and just, you know, finishing the sentences. You know, I have to or they have to, you know, and just getting it out. You know, what is, you know, they are all the judgments on them, all the accusations, all the, just pour out onto a piece of paper, all the thoughts that are going round in your head. And in the process of doing that, you know, you might cry, you might get, you know, the bodily sensations may get worse. But just get it out. Just, just I call it vomiting on the page. Just spill it out and then take a pause again. It's like, go and put the kettle on or get a glass of water, because the chances are most of the stuff that you've written down is baloney. But at least when you've got it down on a piece of paper, you can look at it and you can, you know, for example, he's definitely cheating. He’s seeing someone else. He's got a lover at work. He's, you know, it'll just be nonsense. The mind has generated this nonsense.

What about talking to friends or talking to someone else? Or, you know, talking to someone.

A hundred percent, a hundred percent. But if you phone a friend and you tell your friend “He was an hour late last night, he's definitely cheating". And your friend goes, "oh, I completely agree. Of course, he was cheating if he was an hour late". That isn't the friend you need to ring. It really isn't going to help. You don't want someone who's going to fuel it. Pour onto the flames. You're already burning up with all this uncomfortable emotion. You want a friend who's going to be very, um. You know, maybe at the beginning, let you have a sob and a howl and be in your in your upset. But actually, it's going to be quite analytical and quite, you know, challenging even of "do you know why they were an hour late?" I've made him and he, you know, he could easily be a she or a they. "Do, you know. Do you know why they were an hour late? Do you know what happened? Did you did you ask?" You know.

And also they could ask you. "Why are you feeling like that?"

Yes, yes.

"Is there any reason why you might be feeling that?" Would be a really good first question. You know, not because you're feeling paranoid, but "So why are you why would they be cheating on you? Why do you feel that you would deserve to be cheated on?"

Ooh, interesting line of questioning.

Well, I just thought if a friend said that to me because a friend is going to go. "I don't think you do deserve that. I think you're great. And I think you're lovely. And when I see you together, you seem very this and that." And it is interesting. I just realised you're really saying out loud, I think someone else is better than me here. And I and the other thing is, you have I think we've talked about this before maybe, Byron Katie. This book, this woman that she just has this one simple question. When you have any question, as you said, you know I'm cheating on someone or they're cheating on me, or you just say, "is that true?" That's it. The first question is, "is that true?" And often we go, "yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely true." The second question is "is that absolutely true?" And I tell you, that's a really hard one to say yes to. And just that little space, that little pause gives you time to think about it.

So it is, it's a line of questioning that is you know, it's used in CBT. It's used in in quite a lot of therapy modalities. Once you've got it on a piece of paper you can interrogate each statement. So, Byron Katie says "is that true. Is it absolutely true?" My line of questioning, which comes from a teacher called Brad Brown, is "is it true, false, or don't know?" And the ones I'm very curious about are the don't knows. So, you know, it could be. Well, you know why, why is he cheating? You know, because I'm fat and I'm ugly and I'm horrible and I'm boring and those, you know, "Is it true that you're fat?" "Yes." Really? Well, these judgments are so simplistic. So, yes. Is it true? Is it absolutely true? If it's not, what is the truth?

remember a partner once saying to me, do you not understand? I'm with you because I choose to be with you. I choose it, and every time we get together and every time we do something, I could choose to do something else. And just trying to get me to trust in that and say that I'm choosing to be with you. You know, and it is that thing of having to tackle your own self-esteem, which is very much tied up with this isn't it. I mean, it's interesting about the Byron Katie thing because once you have your statement and you go, you know, they go "and how do you feel about it being true?" "And how do you feel if it's not true?" And it's funny, this thing of thoughts, are our thoughts being ourselves. You know, just believing our thoughts so much. And we're now living in a world at the moment which is full of this whole fake news idea. We're surrounded by what is truth. We're seeing different people's opinions endlessly, night and day. You know, it's making us realise that we're not too sure what's true or false. So, jealousy is a really interesting thing to sort of be aware of, of going, yeah, I might not be 100% clear. I love your one of “is it true or I don't know" because I don't know gives you so much space because that is actually a fact.

Yes. The mind really struggles with uncertainty. And the thing is, when we're in the grips of jealousy, we know, we know you are blah blah dot dot dot dot. Whereas when we claim the “don't know”, you know, you said you'd be home an hour ago, you're not home and I don't know why. Sitting in the Don't know. Yeah. I mean, it drives the mind mad. But it is it is a required skill. And I think you're right in these times of, you know, more and more uncertainty, how do we grow our, you know, musculature for being humans who can claim this is the world we live in and where is the solid ground and where and wasting our resource on, yes. I don't want to contradict myself and say, wasting our resource on jealousy because I've been arguing all session, all this conversation that jealousy is just an emotion, but it's an emotion that is pointing to something that is worth pursuing, to see what is to be revealed. But when it's seen as a fact, I'm jealous. And I'm jealous because... Then we don't get the learning that's being offered, and we join in with this crazy false world of false truths. It's not real.

Yeah, because the false truth thing, it's stories. It's such an interesting thing. This. The feeling is just the feeling. It's what we attach to it that then becomes a problem, and we become wedded to it. And then our friend says something and we go, "oh yeah, no, that's right." And then we see a receipt and we think, "oh my God, this is right. My story's right." We're starting to look for things to validate this story that we've literally made up. And the human being is brilliant at making up things. It's like it's how we operate, everything is story. You know, jealousy is a really big potential dramatic story that can distract us for ages. You know.

If it's not interrogated.

I mean, all these sort of shadow emotions that are taboo, you know, depression, anxiety, anger, jealousy. If we can get past our fear of them and welcome them and go, "oh, hello, old friend. Why are you here? What are you. What are you wanting me to notice that I haven't noticed?" But to do that, it is about dropping into it and feeling it, and we run from it. We're sort of programmed to to do the opposite, because it's such an uncomfortable thing to feel.

Gosh, that makes me think now, hilariously, of another Rumi poem, because I know I suggested one the other day, but this was the guest house. Do you know?

Yes, yes.

Yeah, it might be a good one to put up on the website, because it is this lovely poem just about talking about emotions and how they like guests in your house, and to welcome them in because they come to show you something. It's a really interesting way of seeing them.

They come in, they go out. I mean, it's just like the weather. It comes; it goes. The work is to not be attached to it, not to be fixed. Yeah. And I think it's so important that when we do fall into that hole of any one of those negative emotions, you know, if we've been angry for days or jealous for days or depressed or anxious. You know, when we've noticed and we've found a way to pull ourselves back and be curious and discover what's there to be discovered. It's so important that we forgive ourselves. We can do things that we're not proud of. We can say things. We can behave in quite unpleasant ways. We can, do you know when I'm in that "you, you, you, you you" I'm in that blame. "It's like I'm feeling awful and it's all your fault. You've done this to me." You know, it's like rather than requiring them to forgive us, it'd be lovely if they do forgive us for being, you know.... But actually, my work is to have compassion for myself, forgive myself to recognise I am a work in progress. I am learning all the time. Sometimes I behave, you know ways I wish I hadn't. I just need to be compassionate and forgive myself. Because you said right at the beginning, this comes from childhood. You know, whether it's sibling rivalry, whether it's, you know, poor parenting, whether it's, you know, unpleasant things that happened in school. We're not kind of quote unquote "jealous people" for no reason. There is a back story that is being awakened in the present. "And yes, I got activated. I did that old stuff. I can forgive myself." It's imperative that I forgive myself.

No, that's really lovely, Aileen.

Thank you. Thank you for making the time for this chat. And I really, I really enjoy your contributions. You know, from the arts. I mean, bringing seasoning today with Othello was just delicious, delicious. So, um, if you're interested, if you'd like to see the poem, um, Aileen referenced, do go to our website, thesexandrelationshipspodcast.com. And we'll be back with more. There's more to come. And thank you for listening. Bye for now.

Thanks, everyone. Bye.