What happens when a leader returns to the trenches? Not just for a day, a sprint, or a month. They commit to operating in one of their earliest roles again for numerous months. Josh is doing just that. Listen and find out why this would be a good move for you to try.

You listened to the intro, right? Here's the link Josh was talking about.

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I'm I get all my shit done.

Let's go.

I don't care where you're at.

Let.

No just it's, it's just, it's a, it's a never ending.

All right.

Never ending.

Let's take a breath.

It's about Bob.

It's about Bob.

Let's

breathe in Josh and breathe out.

Episode 221.

Josh goes back to the scrum master role, find out why, how and the value

it's provided him and you know what.

Everybody should probably take a step back.

Go back to the grassroots and understand where things are at.

If you haven't done that in a while, Hit the pause button and do that.

It'll make a huge difference.

All right before we get started.

You guys know Josh released NFTs, right?

Oh, you didn't.

Well, There is a link below in the show notes that'll get you to everything

Josh has going on, and it is.

A lot.

So look forward to getting feedback on that and hope you enjoy the episode.

as we discussed in previous episodes.

Josh's career has been interesting tumultuous to say the least this summer.

I landed myself in a scrum master role Ooh.

For the past couple of months and for probably through the end of the year.

And that's been

interesting is that, is that end of the year.

So that's like a six months St.

Is the school semester.

As you and I talked about it, I'm really curious as to like

what you've learned from that.

Well, it

it's been interesting because I came in guns blazing.

Like I'm the guy in charge, which I have been for a decade and instantly

trying to make all these changes, cuz it's like, okay, this is wrong.

This is wrong.

This is wrong.

This is.

and most of it wasn't even about the team.

It was about the organization and we needed this.

So did you,

did you come in like that?

Yeah.

See, that's what I would guess about you.

Yeah.

And if you're a leader, there's nothing wrong.

yeah.

Right.

If you're a leader, there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah.

In fact, that's right, right.

But if you're a scrum master, Uh, so I'm really curious.

How, how did that work for you?

Uh, well, an architect in the first meeting, just you could

tell he was really not happy with me.

Really?

Yeah.

So I set up a meeting, I'm like, okay, what's going on?

Yeah.

And he's like, you can't do this.

I'm like, what do you mean?

Like, these are the things we need to do.

And it was okay.

So you're coming in on a 18th month project with like four months left.

Oh, you know?

Yeah.

And we've done a lot of work to get here and we're wrapping things up.

Oh.

And we're a little nervous about changing things at the

end when we're near the finish.

um, so then the head of the engagement also set up a call with me the next day.

He's like, so I heard the first day was interesting and I said,

yeah, I was just doing what I do.

I was doing my thing.

Yeah.

Like that's what I do.

He was like, I get it.

I understand Josh.

We just need you to be a scrum master.

Is

that, what is that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's like, everything you're saying is right, you are 100%, right.

We could and should do those things.

But right now where we are, we need to just like put our head down and do this.

And every fiber of my being.

does not like that.

I wonder, I wonder, like when you said that I was wondering like sped, oh

man came to me,

you know, and it would SP me as well.

Yeah.

I mean, I could maybe do it, but that's my deep.

Yeah.

You and I are wired that way now.

Yeah.

Maybe like 20 years ago, we weren't quite wired that way,

but now we're wired that way.

Yeah.

So it took me a while to keep my mouth shut.

What I've been paid to do for the past decade, decade and a half is

come in and fix as many things as possible, as quickly as possible.

So, yeah, I was just rock it and rolling like that.

And then to have to flip that switch very quickly was difficult, but I did it.

I got it done.

Now I can tell you, I feel myself rebounding a bit and like, I think just

the general, uh, Desire to drive positive change and all the different directions.

I see that I can have an effect across the organization.

I feel it sneaking back in, but I'm doing it in a much more subtle approach.

That's why I was wondering

yeah, like a stealth approach.

And not directing your face.

Yeah.

So

what I've been doing is various leaders across the organization

because they're working through the planning for 23 and what that looks like.

And I said, Hey, and you're planning for 23.

Have you talked about this?

You think maybe this is something that you wanna talk through

and I just offer to help.

And so then I have the opportunity to lay these things out in front of them

as like a buffet of like, Hey, here's.

That I think could work having been here for a couple of months.

Right.

Um, I don't know if I'm gonna be here in 23 or what's going on, but

here's, here's things that I think you might want to think about yeah.

In the coming months as you plan.

So I still have, weezled my way back into, um, trying to drive change and, but it's

a, every direction I could advisory role.

Yeah.

Right, right.

Yeah.

So that, so that's that that's taken me a couple of months to number one.

Uh, dampen my desire to change, uh, and then find ways to enable

that to happen without, or with much less disruption than I usually

have as I'm driving these changes.

I mean, one of the things in your defense and, and not

that I'm trying to defend you.

Yeah.

But, um, the role of the scrum master.

So when they say, I just want you to be a scrum master,

I'm sort of riffing off that.

It's like, do you really know like a scrum master is an organizational coach now

maybe 95% of them don't do that initially.

Right.

But you, you have that well-rounded capability.

Mm-hmm like you came in the door with that.

So if you look in the scrum guide, for example, it's not just coach the team.

Right, right.

It's coach the organization.

So you were doing some of that mm-hmm so it, I'm not ch I'm not telling you

that you were wrong or they were wrong.

I'm just saying they may not know.

Like they hired a great scrum master.

Yeah.

Right.

So be careful what you careful what you asked for.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Because that is the role.

Yep.

It

is part of the role.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, I, I'm super grateful for the folks that got me in

there and it's been super welcoming.

It's just, I've had to adjust in different ways and I've adjusted in the past.

So it's been a good lesson for me that.

My hammer that I've been using.

Yeah.

Isn't always the tool that's necessary.

Uh, and, and, and to do a better job.

As I walk in the door and look at the landscape and then map

out and approach, instead of always doing the thing that I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I bet it was abrupt because that is your typical.

Yeah.

It would be my typical style.

Yeah.

Like I would be like a bull in a China shop.

If I went in as a scrum, ER, I mean in a positive way, I wouldn't be

trying to, you know, destroy anything.

Right.

But it would still be, you know, if I found impediments and things

like that, have you, are they aware of your capabilities?

And so, so if you offer them, you could turn it into a pool system.

It sounds like you were kind of

that's.

Yeah.

That's what I'm trying to set up, um, is spending time with

leaders across the organization.

And, and there are some that are pooling, you know, a as, as we've spent more time

together than then, then they'll reach out and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

Yeah.

For some of the team makeup in future years, What do you think?

How would you do it?

You know, I mean,

I think it would be silly even without even a scrum master, without

as much experience as you have.

I think it would be a good practice for folks to tap into

their, I haven't seen that enough.

Mm-hmm probably out there of, of maybe the scrum masters.

Aren't setting it up, like here's your smorgasboard of stuff and pulled in.

But I haven't seen a lot of folks like use smoke, scrum

masters as like a, an advisor.

Um, I

don't think.

it's interesting.

What I've seen in the industry.

I don't see people viewing the role as that.

Yeah.

You know, it is team focused and, and,

and like delivery focused.

Yeah.

And tactically focused.

Yeah.

So that's almost a waste depending because scrum master's coming in.

Uh, I mean, my daughter Rianne mm-hmm, pivoted in with 15

years of, or like leadership experience, not in, not in tech.

Yeah.

And.

And, you know, now I think they're tapping some of that, but she, and

then she took an entry level or a startup actually a scrum master role.

And it's like tapping into that experience, uh, is probably a

missing, depending on the scrum master mm-hmm is, is sort of a,

a missed opportunity, I think.

Yeah, it does feel, and, and I know this is how many

organizations role, uh, pun not intended, but it's like, this is the role.

Do that job stay in your lane.

You know, it is, I, I, it is like that, right.

Mm-hmm I, I see that.

So often I'm in the middle of teaching a cow class and I may I'm a, and, and

the, where this org, it's a private cow class with an organization.

Yeah.

So a captive leadership team, not, not all the senior leaders,

but tech and product leaders.

And, um, That message might even help them of switch from that, stay

in your lane to getting things done.

Mm-hmm right.

And leveraging everyone's capabilities.

Uh, most organizations is still it's.

It's a construct of what org charts and job descriptions, right?

Yeah.

Yep.

And just patterns.

And stay in your lane and it's not just the leaders doing it.

People see, that's the thing with you.

You couldn't stay in your lane,

right?

yes.

That's correct.

No, no, but

most, most people in a scrum master role are gonna stay.

This is my job description.

Mm-hmm this is, is what they're paying me.

So it's not just the leaders.

It's the dynamic of the per of the individuals as

well.

Mm-hmm and, and, uh, PR I am much more comfortable rocking the boat yeah.

And saying, or doing things that could be detrimental to my future yeah.

At that job.

Um, but I it's like, I can't, I can't turn that off.

The really good thing though, is that as typical issues come

up, I don't flinch at all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's.

I catch myself smiling as people are throwing these challenges out at me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, okay, well here's, here's the allow me to retort, you know?

Yeah.

And so we work through it and, and the, uh, confidence and

willingness to Wade into the really.

Messy stuff.

Yep.

Is a bajillion.

That's a technical, I mean, that's a big number.

Yeah.

Uh, times higher than it was when you and I met.

When I, when I first was a scrum master at Teradata.

Right.

And doing that for the first thing,

were you, and I'm, I'm asking this with a smile on my face.

Is it, was, was there any humbling that happened?

So were you humbled in any way, like you had an assumption and

you're like, you know, I've lost.

I've lost touch with the little, you know, the small folks I've been a

leader to, you know, so was there any humbling like that you reflected on,

you know, and said, you know what, I, I lost my empathy for scrum masters.

I renewed my empathy or something like that.

No, not humbling in a yeah.

In a malicious way, but any revelations that you have?

No,

I I've.

I've always, no, I can't say I've always valued the role, but since.

Dude, I value the role, uh, and what I've seen for the past few gigs in a row.

Um, and, and this group's trying to not let it happen is scrum masters are this

kind of weird thing that float out there?

Yeah.

And they don't know what to do with them.

Um, This group has a person that's like, Hey, you were leading the scrum masters.

You own agile across the board.

It's your responsible

return that if you will, to this person yeah.

Who's guiding the scrum, like ahead of the scrum masters.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, and, and I I've seen few.

organizations dedicate a person to do that.

It's usually an and issue.

Yeah.

Of like, oh, I've got, I've got the engineers and a scrum master or PO right.

Well, providing that guidance to me is a maturity step.

Right.

For them.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, but there've been many places where it's

just, they're just kind of there.

Yeah.

And they, um, just kind of wander the earth without much

guidance and do the best they can.

And then the organization doesn't know how to measure them.

And it just gets it, it gets bad for both sides.

Uh, but this group is not doing that, which is, which is really nice to see.

They're really invested in it.

So that's a, that's a positive it to me.

The humbling experience was that second half of that first day.

And then the second day where I was like, oh God damn it.

Why I, I knew what this role was.

Yep.

Josh, why did you do that?

You know, just

thankfully they, they, they talked to you about it, right?

Yeah.

It sounds like they really stepped up.

Yeah.

And had a real time hard, crucial conversation with you.

Mm-hmm and given that right.

Or, I mean, other other folks would've.

You know, ignored it.

Right.

And not like you.

Right.

And let you go or whatever, mm-hmm or not, not address it at all.

So you continue to piss people off, but it sounds like the

leaders there really stepped up.

Yeah.

It, which was perfect because I could see that they were

willing to have the tough conversation.

I was willing to jump into it too.

So exactly very quickly we established that, Hey, this is an open communication.

That we have, and we're gonna work together and when something goes

wrong, we're gonna address it quickly.

Yeah.

Um, and that's helped over the following, um, weeks, because what happened is,

uh, some of my, you know, large swings.

Frustrated the PO and frustrated other people.

And so then it was quick and easy for them to like get in a room virtual

or not, and say like, all right, so here here's, what's driving me crazy.

Yeah.

How about we tackle it like this?

Yeah.

And then we move forward as a group and we're in a much better spot.

So it's a good group of people that I'm working with that has enabled that.

To happen to both say like, Hey dude, chill out.

And then let's work through this.

As we move

forward, as you're talking, it reminds me, you you've always

impressed me as a feedback or a feedback receiver artist.

Mm-hmm right from when I first met you, which is rare in a lot of

people and rare in leaders and rare.

But, but that's, I think that's doing you a good service here.

Yeah.

So it's not just them giving you the feedback.

It's you being receptive to it, not getting defense.

And then doing something with it.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can, I can see that really like, sort of that's a key and,

and, and that would be rare.

A lot of people struggle with getting that kind of feedback, being receptive

to it, taking action on it and

stuff.

And the sad part is some people don't get the feedback.

Yeah.

Which again, is the thing that we just talked about about how, how great it

is that they quickly put it out there.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Is it, is it a cake walk for you?

And so I would say, you know, Josh you're like this super

coach super leader, super AIST.

I mean, you could, you could probably do this in your sleep, give you 52 teams.

Um, and you could scrum master a hundred mm-hmm . And so what I'm looking for

I'm exaggerating clearly, but is, you know, is it a cake walk or what are

the challenges, you know, that, that you're uncovering that make you, uh, it

it's.

in the role.

Not so, yeah, yeah, yes.

With the company, but in the role.

Yeah, with the, with the scrum master role, it's definitely easy.

Um, as I talked about, there are things that have come up that I know in the

past and engineers raised something.

I didn't have a good response and I stumbled and fumbled through it.

And now I've stumbled and fumbled through enough that, uh, whatever

they threw at me, I've, I've had a chance to Wade through it.

So.

that is certainly easier.

What I find myself doing is I'm much more patient than I

used to be as a scrum master.

I am much more capable of getting the snowball rolling and watching

it grow and get bigger and bigger.

And if I, and if it's starting to go off into a ditch, I can give it

a little bit of a tap and being a lot more comfortable with that than.

Was when I first started the role, because I felt like I really needed

to drive this change quickly and that ultimately created resistance because

I was trying to force people yeah.

Into stuff.

And now, again, the thing that I've worked on in the past, if you listen for

quite a while, is trying to get better at celebrating the little wins along the way.

Yeah.

And I'm capable of seeing those more and actually laying them out in front

of me, like, okay, so this is gonna.

Then this is gonna happen, then this is gonna happen.

And you know, we'll go off course a couple times.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But at least like to know in my brain, like, all right.

So the next checkpoint for us yeah.

Is when the team does this, without me saying a thing and just like

letting it happen over a sprint or two, instead of trying to force

it in that refinement meeting,

you've inspired me a little bit here from the point of view

of, and I'm gonna try to find it.

It's like be a scrum master.

You get abstracted.

Like, cuz I have gotten abstracted, there's this notion of getting the weeds

with someone and do it for a little bit.

Not that I'm gonna be a permanent scrum master.

Yeah.

But like doing a three month St with a real team, like with real work.

Yeah.

Like I interact with real teams as a coach, but I'm not with the team.

Mm-hmm like, I, you know, and I don't, I'm not meeting them where they are

like, like what resonates with me is you have to meet the team where they.

You have to, you have a privilege of being Josh Anderson mm-hmm right.

And typically you just like, make things happen.

Now you have to sort of pull that down, meet them where they are be

patient and, and, and do whatever incremental change you can.

Um, that would be a good exercise for any coach.

I think, to go get in the weeds every once in a.

Uh, and, and sort of throttle your head back and, and understand what it's like,

like what it's like in the real world.

I, and that's sort of asking that I might that's, what's resonating with

me, but sometimes we can get abstract.

I feel like I can get mm-hmm maybe you don't, but I feel like I can, I

get abstracted from the real world, not too much, but enough, but I'm

talking about like the, in the trenches teams and the craft they

have to go through and the hard.

And the history that they've done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That that's that's um, that's been really healthy for me is to

get another checkpoint on where.

teammates are when they get dropped in an agile shop.

Yeah.

Because there's employees of the company, there's a couple contracting companies

that are mixed in it's a sizable company.

Exactly.

And so people end up on teams and they have their own, like baggage

is not the right word, but they have their own path to here.

Yeah.

So they have been through things and they have expectations

of how agile our scrum works.

And this is what we do.

This is how we communicate all those things.

Seeing that and understanding what folks have lived

through, see that's the value for music or I'm also recommending

every coach, like do that.

It's almost like a mini reboot camp or something.

Yeah.

Uh, I'm sure my eyes would be widened and it, and it would change.

It would give me another lens.

Another sort of perspective.

Mm-hmm in my coaching.

I go in again, I'm not bad, I'm not good, but I go in, I'm

like you, I want to affect.

And I'm, I'm being incentive to do that, but I want to affect global change.

Yeah.

And, and I, even though I know, you know, I try to meet

people, try to do relationships.

It's not the same.

And I think that would be a great learning experience.

Anything else you wanna share about it for?

I mean, the audio I want to.

You know, scrum master is anyone who's in a scrum master role,

listening, something you could share.

One of the things that has enabled me to quickly

gain trust, ah, with the engineers.

Yeah.

As a person coming out of the woodwork, like, no, they have no idea.

He dropped you in.

Yeah.

There's like, Hey, here's this guy, Josh, he's your scrub master now.

Go get 'em exactly.

Um, is just a willingness and capability to build that rapport with them.

And.

my technical background has helped because there have been times where in refinement

or something we're talking through.

Yeah.

And I was like, well, why don't we just use a queuing system?

Right.

Like that's what it's built for, you know?

Yeah.

Things like that.

And so then I, I get in the dialogue, you get some credibility.

Yeah.

But, but, but not a driving force and a decision.

Creating options and allowing people to think about things.

Um, and then just a willingness to be the goofy guy, right.

And to throw stuff out.

And like, we actually had a, um, we had a team lunch, you know,

and that was not anything that they've ever done before, but.

most engineering teams, you get 'em together on zoom for a lunch

they're gonna eat, and they're gonna want to get back to writing code.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, this is a hassle, all it, you know, this is the thing.

So working to have those icebreaker discussions and just trying to get them

to loosen up, which many of you do that?

Um, but really investing in it, not severe to it, not, not having it be.

Um, Hey, I gave it one shot.

We were in a meeting.

I went five minutes.

I could see their eyes were rolling and I gave up yeah, right of

really pushing through that, uh, because you'll get the grumbling

and the eye rolls and all of that.

But you know, the value of creating the connection because

all of these individuals will likely, never meet each other in.

. So how, how do you begin to endear folks with that?

Uh,

what I'm hearing is like relationship building.

Yeah.

Investing in relationship building, um, as a leader, I mean, you can do that,

but you, you are in the power role.

Mm-hmm . So they have to build relationships with you right.

More than you have to build, you have to be open to it.

So this has flipped that onto you.

Right?

Right.

You've had to be the seeker of relationship building.

Yeah.

I

technically have no power.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have no that's that would be creepy.

Scary for me.

I mean, typically.

Yeah.

And now I, I don't have leadership.

You've been in leadership roles, but I have gravitas power.

Right.

Mm-hmm I, I have, mm.

Like the history that I bring, my, my experience that I bring and,

but that's power that's privilege.

Um, that's, that's part of the scrum master for me.

I gotta find a place where no one knows about me.

All I am is an old guy.

I, I, you know, I need a little funds to get to retirement.

Please take me on is a scrum master.

That would be a.

Come up.

I mean, that's a, yeah, that's a great landscape for me to try that.

I'm sure I would learn some rich lessons.

You could come and work for me.

I'll keep you in your place.

Would you put, would, would you take me under your

wing?

Yeah.

And I would put you in your place and oh, I, yeah, I have no doubt.

I don't care how many books you've written, sir.

I

that's.

I know you don't even have to say it, right.

Can I get you a cup of coffee, John?

Yes,

please.

Yeah, please.

I don't even like coffee, but go and get

one.

If I, if I can get it for you, you you'll let it sit there in front of you.

Yeah.

Quickly, uh, anywhere else we want to go with this episode.

What do you think?

No, I, to me, this is something that we've talked about in

the past about the value of.

Living in the trenches.

Yeah.

On a regular basis.

Yeah.

Um, I was in a situation where I needed what I could get

as quickly as I could get.

I have some friends in the space like, Hey, cool.

We can get you in this.

Yep.

It's not what you've been doing, but we know you'll do great.

Yep.

Just.

And we know you need a paycheck, right?

So like, can you do this?

And I said, absolutely.

Um, so I was lucky enough to be in a spot where this could happen.

It wasn't an intentional move for me, but it is something that as

we're talking, it's something that probably should be intentional for.

Leaders across the board because you do lose

touch.

Yep.

I'm thinking years ago I would send my, I mean, I would join a team mm-hmm , you

know, we might lose a scrum master or something, or we might grow by a team.

So I, we would need someone to fill in temporarily and I would do that.

and I haven't done that in years.

Yeah.

And it would, it really matured me.

It really grew me and I have, I have, I have a lot of chops, but

it just gave me a, a perspective.

It gave it brought me close.

Yeah.

To proximity.

And my takeaway for this episode seriously, is I'm gonna look

for an opportunity not too long.

Yeah.

Cuz I, I, but, but I wanna look for an opportunity where I can, where

I can join a team or something, uh, and just do work, do honest.

Scrum master work at the lowest level of serve team

and see what I learned.

And, and the thing that you need the most is for that team to give you feedback.

Like I was given.

Yeah.

We, we would ask that if you're a member of that team that you don't clam up yeah.

That maybe you even lean in more.

Yeah.

That's, that's good advice.

All of those things.

So if you're not a leader and you're listening to, to this and

maybe your leader does listen to it and they wanna try it.

The way you can help yourself by helping this person is providing that feedback.

If they choose to go this path, because that feedback you give will benefit you

over time, as eyes are opened or Reed.

And now that's going to reenable some of the change that you maybe have been

trying to drive or have been asking for.

Yeah, didn't happen, but.

It's seen and felt, and there's a new connection with you and the team.

So now there's a greater relationship which equals trust.

So now when you come to that leader and say, Hey, I think we should do this.

It's more like, yep.

Let's do it.

I've been there.

I've seen it.

You're right.

I trust you.

Here we go.

Yep.

All let's take a forward.

Can you let's do it.

All right.

For beautiful.

Downtown C North Carolina.

I'm Bob Galen.

And I'm Josh Anderson

shake and bake.

Just

do that again.

Shake.

Okay.

Yeah, we kind of missed in bake.

Take care of y'all.

We had a whiff.