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221 - Value In The Trenches
Episode 22126th September 2022 • Meta-Cast • Bob Galen & Josh Anderson
00:00:00 00:27:52

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What happens when a leader returns to the trenches? Not just for a day, a sprint, or a month. They commit to operating in one of their earliest roles again for numerous months. Josh is doing just that. Listen and find out why this would be a good move for you to try.

You listened to the intro, right? Here's the link Josh was talking about.

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Transcripts

Josh Anderson:

I'm I get all my shit done.

Josh Anderson:

Let's go.

Josh Anderson:

I don't care where you're at.

Josh Anderson:

Let.

Josh Anderson:

No just it's, it's just, it's a, it's a never ending.

Josh Anderson:

All right.

Josh Anderson:

Never ending.

Josh Anderson:

Let's take a breath.

Josh Anderson:

It's about Bob.

Josh Anderson:

It's about Bob.

Josh Anderson:

Let's

Bob:

breathe in Josh and breathe out.

Josh Anderson:

Episode 221.

Josh Anderson:

Josh goes back to the scrum master role, find out why, how and the value

Josh Anderson:

it's provided him and you know what.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody should probably take a step back.

Josh Anderson:

Go back to the grassroots and understand where things are at.

Josh Anderson:

If you haven't done that in a while, Hit the pause button and do that.

Josh Anderson:

It'll make a huge difference.

Josh Anderson:

All right before we get started.

Josh Anderson:

You guys know Josh released NFTs, right?

Josh Anderson:

Oh, you didn't.

Josh Anderson:

Well, There is a link below in the show notes that'll get you to everything

Josh Anderson:

Josh has going on, and it is.

Josh Anderson:

A lot.

Josh Anderson:

So look forward to getting feedback on that and hope you enjoy the episode.

Josh Anderson:

as we discussed in previous episodes.

Josh Anderson:

Josh's career has been interesting tumultuous to say the least this summer.

Josh Anderson:

I landed myself in a scrum master role Ooh.

Josh Anderson:

For the past couple of months and for probably through the end of the year.

Josh Anderson:

And that's been

Bob:

interesting is that, is that end of the year.

Bob:

So that's like a six months St.

Bob:

Is the school semester.

Bob:

As you and I talked about it, I'm really curious as to like

Bob:

what you've learned from that.

Bob:

Well, it

Josh Anderson:

it's been interesting because I came in guns blazing.

Josh Anderson:

Like I'm the guy in charge, which I have been for a decade and instantly

Josh Anderson:

trying to make all these changes, cuz it's like, okay, this is wrong.

Josh Anderson:

This is wrong.

Josh Anderson:

This is wrong.

Josh Anderson:

This is.

Josh Anderson:

and most of it wasn't even about the team.

Josh Anderson:

It was about the organization and we needed this.

Josh Anderson:

So did you,

Bob:

did you come in like that?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

See, that's what I would guess about you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And if you're a leader, there's nothing wrong.

Bob:

yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

If you're a leader, there's nothing wrong with that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

In fact, that's right, right.

Bob:

But if you're a scrum master, Uh, so I'm really curious.

Bob:

How, how did that work for you?

Josh Anderson:

Uh, well, an architect in the first meeting, just you could

Josh Anderson:

tell he was really not happy with me.

Josh Anderson:

Really?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So I set up a meeting, I'm like, okay, what's going on?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And he's like, you can't do this.

Josh Anderson:

I'm like, what do you mean?

Josh Anderson:

Like, these are the things we need to do.

Josh Anderson:

And it was okay.

Josh Anderson:

So you're coming in on a 18th month project with like four months left.

Josh Anderson:

Oh, you know?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And we've done a lot of work to get here and we're wrapping things up.

Josh Anderson:

Oh.

Josh Anderson:

And we're a little nervous about changing things at the

Josh Anderson:

end when we're near the finish.

Josh Anderson:

um, so then the head of the engagement also set up a call with me the next day.

Josh Anderson:

He's like, so I heard the first day was interesting and I said,

Josh Anderson:

yeah, I was just doing what I do.

Josh Anderson:

I was doing my thing.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Like that's what I do.

Josh Anderson:

He was like, I get it.

Josh Anderson:

I understand Josh.

Josh Anderson:

We just need you to be a scrum master.

Josh Anderson:

Is

Bob:

that, what is that?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And he's like, everything you're saying is right, you are 100%, right.

Josh Anderson:

We could and should do those things.

Josh Anderson:

But right now where we are, we need to just like put our head down and do this.

Josh Anderson:

And every fiber of my being.

Josh Anderson:

does not like that.

Bob:

I wonder, I wonder, like when you said that I was wondering like sped, oh

Josh Anderson:

man came to me,

Bob:

you know, and it would SP me as well.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I mean, I could maybe do it, but that's my deep.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You and I are wired that way now.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Maybe like 20 years ago, we weren't quite wired that way,

Bob:

but now we're wired that way.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So it took me a while to keep my mouth shut.

Josh Anderson:

What I've been paid to do for the past decade, decade and a half is

Josh Anderson:

come in and fix as many things as possible, as quickly as possible.

Josh Anderson:

So, yeah, I was just rock it and rolling like that.

Josh Anderson:

And then to have to flip that switch very quickly was difficult, but I did it.

Josh Anderson:

I got it done.

Josh Anderson:

Now I can tell you, I feel myself rebounding a bit and like, I think just

Josh Anderson:

the general, uh, Desire to drive positive change and all the different directions.

Josh Anderson:

I see that I can have an effect across the organization.

Josh Anderson:

I feel it sneaking back in, but I'm doing it in a much more subtle approach.

Josh Anderson:

That's why I was wondering

Bob:

yeah, like a stealth approach.

Bob:

And not directing your face.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So

Josh Anderson:

what I've been doing is various leaders across the organization

Josh Anderson:

because they're working through the planning for 23 and what that looks like.

Josh Anderson:

And I said, Hey, and you're planning for 23.

Josh Anderson:

Have you talked about this?

Josh Anderson:

You think maybe this is something that you wanna talk through

Josh Anderson:

and I just offer to help.

Josh Anderson:

And so then I have the opportunity to lay these things out in front of them

Josh Anderson:

as like a buffet of like, Hey, here's.

Josh Anderson:

That I think could work having been here for a couple of months.

Josh Anderson:

Right.

Josh Anderson:

Um, I don't know if I'm gonna be here in 23 or what's going on, but

Josh Anderson:

here's, here's things that I think you might want to think about yeah.

Josh Anderson:

In the coming months as you plan.

Josh Anderson:

So I still have, weezled my way back into, um, trying to drive change and, but it's

Josh Anderson:

a, every direction I could advisory role.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Right, right.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So that, so that's that that's taken me a couple of months to number one.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, dampen my desire to change, uh, and then find ways to enable

Josh Anderson:

that to happen without, or with much less disruption than I usually

Josh Anderson:

have as I'm driving these changes.

Bob:

I mean, one of the things in your defense and, and not

Bob:

that I'm trying to defend you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But, um, the role of the scrum master.

Bob:

So when they say, I just want you to be a scrum master,

Bob:

I'm sort of riffing off that.

Bob:

It's like, do you really know like a scrum master is an organizational coach now

Bob:

maybe 95% of them don't do that initially.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But you, you have that well-rounded capability.

Bob:

Mm-hmm like you came in the door with that.

Bob:

So if you look in the scrum guide, for example, it's not just coach the team.

Bob:

Right, right.

Bob:

It's coach the organization.

Bob:

So you were doing some of that mm-hmm so it, I'm not ch I'm not telling you

Bob:

that you were wrong or they were wrong.

Bob:

I'm just saying they may not know.

Bob:

Like they hired a great scrum master.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So be careful what you careful what you asked for.

Bob:

Yeah, yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Because that is the role.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

It

Josh Anderson:

is part of the role.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And, and, you know, I, I'm super grateful for the folks that got me in

Josh Anderson:

there and it's been super welcoming.

Josh Anderson:

It's just, I've had to adjust in different ways and I've adjusted in the past.

Josh Anderson:

So it's been a good lesson for me that.

Josh Anderson:

My hammer that I've been using.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Isn't always the tool that's necessary.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, and, and, and to do a better job.

Josh Anderson:

As I walk in the door and look at the landscape and then map

Josh Anderson:

out and approach, instead of always doing the thing that I do.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Bob:

But I bet it was abrupt because that is your typical.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It would be my typical style.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like I would be like a bull in a China shop.

Bob:

If I went in as a scrum, ER, I mean in a positive way, I wouldn't be

Bob:

trying to, you know, destroy anything.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But it would still be, you know, if I found impediments and things

Bob:

like that, have you, are they aware of your capabilities?

Bob:

And so, so if you offer them, you could turn it into a pool system.

Bob:

It sounds like you were kind of

Josh Anderson:

that's.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

That's what I'm trying to set up, um, is spending time with

Josh Anderson:

leaders across the organization.

Josh Anderson:

And, and there are some that are pooling, you know, a as, as we've spent more time

Josh Anderson:

together than then, then they'll reach out and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

For some of the team makeup in future years, What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

How would you do it?

Josh Anderson:

You know, I mean,

Bob:

I think it would be silly even without even a scrum master, without

Bob:

as much experience as you have.

Bob:

I think it would be a good practice for folks to tap into

Bob:

their, I haven't seen that enough.

Bob:

Mm-hmm probably out there of, of maybe the scrum masters.

Bob:

Aren't setting it up, like here's your smorgasboard of stuff and pulled in.

Bob:

But I haven't seen a lot of folks like use smoke, scrum

Bob:

masters as like a, an advisor.

Bob:

Um, I

Josh Anderson:

don't think.

Josh Anderson:

it's interesting.

Josh Anderson:

What I've seen in the industry.

Josh Anderson:

I don't see people viewing the role as that.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

You know, it is team focused and, and,

Bob:

and like delivery focused.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And tactically focused.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So that's almost a waste depending because scrum master's coming in.

Bob:

Uh, I mean, my daughter Rianne mm-hmm, pivoted in with 15

Bob:

years of, or like leadership experience, not in, not in tech.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And.

Bob:

And, you know, now I think they're tapping some of that, but she, and

Bob:

then she took an entry level or a startup actually a scrum master role.

Bob:

And it's like tapping into that experience, uh, is probably a

Bob:

missing, depending on the scrum master mm-hmm is, is sort of a,

Bob:

a missed opportunity, I think.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, it does feel, and, and I know this is how many

Josh Anderson:

organizations role, uh, pun not intended, but it's like, this is the role.

Josh Anderson:

Do that job stay in your lane.

Bob:

You know, it is, I, I, it is like that, right.

Bob:

Mm-hmm I, I see that.

Bob:

So often I'm in the middle of teaching a cow class and I may I'm a, and, and

Bob:

the, where this org, it's a private cow class with an organization.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So a captive leadership team, not, not all the senior leaders,

Bob:

but tech and product leaders.

Bob:

And, um, That message might even help them of switch from that, stay

Bob:

in your lane to getting things done.

Bob:

Mm-hmm right.

Bob:

And leveraging everyone's capabilities.

Bob:

Uh, most organizations is still it's.

Bob:

It's a construct of what org charts and job descriptions, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

And just patterns.

Bob:

And stay in your lane and it's not just the leaders doing it.

Bob:

People see, that's the thing with you.

Bob:

You couldn't stay in your lane,

Josh Anderson:

right?

Josh Anderson:

yes.

Josh Anderson:

That's correct.

Josh Anderson:

No, no, but

Bob:

most, most people in a scrum master role are gonna stay.

Bob:

This is my job description.

Bob:

Mm-hmm this is, is what they're paying me.

Bob:

So it's not just the leaders.

Bob:

It's the dynamic of the per of the individuals as

Josh Anderson:

well.

Josh Anderson:

Mm-hmm and, and, uh, PR I am much more comfortable rocking the boat yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And saying, or doing things that could be detrimental to my future yeah.

Josh Anderson:

At that job.

Josh Anderson:

Um, but I it's like, I can't, I can't turn that off.

Josh Anderson:

The really good thing though, is that as typical issues come

Josh Anderson:

up, I don't flinch at all.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

You know, it's.

Josh Anderson:

I catch myself smiling as people are throwing these challenges out at me.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And it's like, okay, well here's, here's the allow me to retort, you know?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And so we work through it and, and the, uh, confidence and

Josh Anderson:

willingness to Wade into the really.

Josh Anderson:

Messy stuff.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

Is a bajillion.

Josh Anderson:

That's a technical, I mean, that's a big number.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, times higher than it was when you and I met.

Josh Anderson:

When I, when I first was a scrum master at Teradata.

Josh Anderson:

Right.

Josh Anderson:

And doing that for the first thing,

Bob:

were you, and I'm, I'm asking this with a smile on my face.

Bob:

Is it, was, was there any humbling that happened?

Bob:

So were you humbled in any way, like you had an assumption and

Bob:

you're like, you know, I've lost.

Bob:

I've lost touch with the little, you know, the small folks I've been a

Bob:

leader to, you know, so was there any humbling like that you reflected on,

Bob:

you know, and said, you know what, I, I lost my empathy for scrum masters.

Bob:

I renewed my empathy or something like that.

Bob:

No, not humbling in a yeah.

Bob:

In a malicious way, but any revelations that you have?

Bob:

No,

Josh Anderson:

I I've.

Josh Anderson:

I've always, no, I can't say I've always valued the role, but since.

Josh Anderson:

Dude, I value the role, uh, and what I've seen for the past few gigs in a row.

Josh Anderson:

Um, and, and this group's trying to not let it happen is scrum masters are this

Josh Anderson:

kind of weird thing that float out there?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And they don't know what to do with them.

Josh Anderson:

Um, This group has a person that's like, Hey, you were leading the scrum masters.

Josh Anderson:

You own agile across the board.

Josh Anderson:

It's your responsible

Bob:

return that if you will, to this person yeah.

Bob:

Who's guiding the scrum, like ahead of the scrum masters.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

And, and, and I I've seen few.

Josh Anderson:

organizations dedicate a person to do that.

Josh Anderson:

It's usually an and issue.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Of like, oh, I've got, I've got the engineers and a scrum master or PO right.

Bob:

Well, providing that guidance to me is a maturity step.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

For them.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So, but there've been many places where it's

Josh Anderson:

just, they're just kind of there.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And they, um, just kind of wander the earth without much

Josh Anderson:

guidance and do the best they can.

Josh Anderson:

And then the organization doesn't know how to measure them.

Josh Anderson:

And it just gets it, it gets bad for both sides.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, but this group is not doing that, which is, which is really nice to see.

Josh Anderson:

They're really invested in it.

Josh Anderson:

So that's a, that's a positive it to me.

Josh Anderson:

The humbling experience was that second half of that first day.

Josh Anderson:

And then the second day where I was like, oh God damn it.

Josh Anderson:

Why I, I knew what this role was.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

Josh, why did you do that?

Josh Anderson:

You know, just

Bob:

thankfully they, they, they talked to you about it, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It sounds like they really stepped up.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And had a real time hard, crucial conversation with you.

Bob:

Mm-hmm and given that right.

Bob:

Or, I mean, other other folks would've.

Bob:

You know, ignored it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And not like you.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And let you go or whatever, mm-hmm or not, not address it at all.

Bob:

So you continue to piss people off, but it sounds like the

Bob:

leaders there really stepped up.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

It, which was perfect because I could see that they were

Josh Anderson:

willing to have the tough conversation.

Josh Anderson:

I was willing to jump into it too.

Josh Anderson:

So exactly very quickly we established that, Hey, this is an open communication.

Josh Anderson:

That we have, and we're gonna work together and when something goes

Josh Anderson:

wrong, we're gonna address it quickly.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Um, and that's helped over the following, um, weeks, because what happened is,

Josh Anderson:

uh, some of my, you know, large swings.

Josh Anderson:

Frustrated the PO and frustrated other people.

Josh Anderson:

And so then it was quick and easy for them to like get in a room virtual

Josh Anderson:

or not, and say like, all right, so here here's, what's driving me crazy.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

How about we tackle it like this?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And then we move forward as a group and we're in a much better spot.

Josh Anderson:

So it's a good group of people that I'm working with that has enabled that.

Josh Anderson:

To happen to both say like, Hey dude, chill out.

Josh Anderson:

And then let's work through this.

Josh Anderson:

As we move

Bob:

forward, as you're talking, it reminds me, you you've always

Bob:

impressed me as a feedback or a feedback receiver artist.

Bob:

Mm-hmm right from when I first met you, which is rare in a lot of

Bob:

people and rare in leaders and rare.

Bob:

But, but that's, I think that's doing you a good service here.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So it's not just them giving you the feedback.

Bob:

It's you being receptive to it, not getting defense.

Bob:

And then doing something with it.

Bob:

Right, right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I can, I can see that really like, sort of that's a key and,

Bob:

and, and that would be rare.

Bob:

A lot of people struggle with getting that kind of feedback, being receptive

Bob:

to it, taking action on it and

Josh Anderson:

stuff.

Josh Anderson:

And the sad part is some people don't get the feedback.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Which again, is the thing that we just talked about about how, how great it

Josh Anderson:

is that they quickly put it out there.

Bob:

Yeah, yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Is it, is it a cake walk for you?

Bob:

And so I would say, you know, Josh you're like this super

Bob:

coach super leader, super AIST.

Bob:

I mean, you could, you could probably do this in your sleep, give you 52 teams.

Bob:

Um, and you could scrum master a hundred mm-hmm . And so what I'm looking for

Bob:

I'm exaggerating clearly, but is, you know, is it a cake walk or what are

Bob:

the challenges, you know, that, that you're uncovering that make you, uh, it

Josh Anderson:

it's.

Josh Anderson:

in the role.

Josh Anderson:

Not so, yeah, yeah, yes.

Josh Anderson:

With the company, but in the role.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, with the, with the scrum master role, it's definitely easy.

Josh Anderson:

Um, as I talked about, there are things that have come up that I know in the

Josh Anderson:

past and engineers raised something.

Josh Anderson:

I didn't have a good response and I stumbled and fumbled through it.

Josh Anderson:

And now I've stumbled and fumbled through enough that, uh, whatever

Josh Anderson:

they threw at me, I've, I've had a chance to Wade through it.

Josh Anderson:

So.

Josh Anderson:

that is certainly easier.

Josh Anderson:

What I find myself doing is I'm much more patient than I

Josh Anderson:

used to be as a scrum master.

Josh Anderson:

I am much more capable of getting the snowball rolling and watching

Josh Anderson:

it grow and get bigger and bigger.

Josh Anderson:

And if I, and if it's starting to go off into a ditch, I can give it

Josh Anderson:

a little bit of a tap and being a lot more comfortable with that than.

Josh Anderson:

Was when I first started the role, because I felt like I really needed

Josh Anderson:

to drive this change quickly and that ultimately created resistance because

Josh Anderson:

I was trying to force people yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Into stuff.

Josh Anderson:

And now, again, the thing that I've worked on in the past, if you listen for

Josh Anderson:

quite a while, is trying to get better at celebrating the little wins along the way.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And I'm capable of seeing those more and actually laying them out in front

Josh Anderson:

of me, like, okay, so this is gonna.

Josh Anderson:

Then this is gonna happen, then this is gonna happen.

Josh Anderson:

And you know, we'll go off course a couple times.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But at least like to know in my brain, like, all right.

Josh Anderson:

So the next checkpoint for us yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Is when the team does this, without me saying a thing and just like

Josh Anderson:

letting it happen over a sprint or two, instead of trying to force

Josh Anderson:

it in that refinement meeting,

Bob:

you've inspired me a little bit here from the point of view

Bob:

of, and I'm gonna try to find it.

Bob:

It's like be a scrum master.

Bob:

You get abstracted.

Bob:

Like, cuz I have gotten abstracted, there's this notion of getting the weeds

Bob:

with someone and do it for a little bit.

Bob:

Not that I'm gonna be a permanent scrum master.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But like doing a three month St with a real team, like with real work.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like I interact with real teams as a coach, but I'm not with the team.

Bob:

Mm-hmm like, I, you know, and I don't, I'm not meeting them where they are

Bob:

like, like what resonates with me is you have to meet the team where they.

Bob:

You have to, you have a privilege of being Josh Anderson mm-hmm right.

Bob:

And typically you just like, make things happen.

Bob:

Now you have to sort of pull that down, meet them where they are be

Bob:

patient and, and, and do whatever incremental change you can.

Bob:

Um, that would be a good exercise for any coach.

Bob:

I think, to go get in the weeds every once in a.

Bob:

Uh, and, and sort of throttle your head back and, and understand what it's like,

Bob:

like what it's like in the real world.

Bob:

I, and that's sort of asking that I might that's, what's resonating with

Bob:

me, but sometimes we can get abstract.

Bob:

I feel like I can get mm-hmm maybe you don't, but I feel like I can, I

Bob:

get abstracted from the real world, not too much, but enough, but I'm

Bob:

talking about like the, in the trenches teams and the craft they

Bob:

have to go through and the hard.

Bob:

And the history that they've done.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

That that's that's um, that's been really healthy for me is to

Josh Anderson:

get another checkpoint on where.

Josh Anderson:

teammates are when they get dropped in an agile shop.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Because there's employees of the company, there's a couple contracting companies

Josh Anderson:

that are mixed in it's a sizable company.

Josh Anderson:

Exactly.

Josh Anderson:

And so people end up on teams and they have their own, like baggage

Josh Anderson:

is not the right word, but they have their own path to here.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So they have been through things and they have expectations

Josh Anderson:

of how agile our scrum works.

Josh Anderson:

And this is what we do.

Josh Anderson:

This is how we communicate all those things.

Josh Anderson:

Seeing that and understanding what folks have lived

Bob:

through, see that's the value for music or I'm also recommending

Bob:

every coach, like do that.

Bob:

It's almost like a mini reboot camp or something.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Uh, I'm sure my eyes would be widened and it, and it would change.

Bob:

It would give me another lens.

Bob:

Another sort of perspective.

Bob:

Mm-hmm in my coaching.

Bob:

I go in again, I'm not bad, I'm not good, but I go in, I'm

Bob:

like you, I want to affect.

Bob:

And I'm, I'm being incentive to do that, but I want to affect global change.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and I, even though I know, you know, I try to meet

Bob:

people, try to do relationships.

Bob:

It's not the same.

Bob:

And I think that would be a great learning experience.

Bob:

Anything else you wanna share about it for?

Bob:

I mean, the audio I want to.

Bob:

You know, scrum master is anyone who's in a scrum master role,

Bob:

listening, something you could share.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that has enabled me to quickly

Josh Anderson:

gain trust, ah, with the engineers.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

As a person coming out of the woodwork, like, no, they have no idea.

Josh Anderson:

He dropped you in.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

There's like, Hey, here's this guy, Josh, he's your scrub master now.

Josh Anderson:

Go get 'em exactly.

Josh Anderson:

Um, is just a willingness and capability to build that rapport with them.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

my technical background has helped because there have been times where in refinement

Josh Anderson:

or something we're talking through.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And I was like, well, why don't we just use a queuing system?

Josh Anderson:

Right.

Josh Anderson:

Like that's what it's built for, you know?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Things like that.

Josh Anderson:

And so then I, I get in the dialogue, you get some credibility.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But, but, but not a driving force and a decision.

Josh Anderson:

Creating options and allowing people to think about things.

Josh Anderson:

Um, and then just a willingness to be the goofy guy, right.

Josh Anderson:

And to throw stuff out.

Josh Anderson:

And like, we actually had a, um, we had a team lunch, you know,

Josh Anderson:

and that was not anything that they've ever done before, but.

Josh Anderson:

most engineering teams, you get 'em together on zoom for a lunch

Josh Anderson:

they're gonna eat, and they're gonna want to get back to writing code.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

You know, it's like, this is a hassle, all it, you know, this is the thing.

Josh Anderson:

So working to have those icebreaker discussions and just trying to get them

Josh Anderson:

to loosen up, which many of you do that?

Josh Anderson:

Um, but really investing in it, not severe to it, not, not having it be.

Josh Anderson:

Um, Hey, I gave it one shot.

Josh Anderson:

We were in a meeting.

Josh Anderson:

I went five minutes.

Josh Anderson:

I could see their eyes were rolling and I gave up yeah, right of

Josh Anderson:

really pushing through that, uh, because you'll get the grumbling

Josh Anderson:

and the eye rolls and all of that.

Josh Anderson:

But you know, the value of creating the connection because

Josh Anderson:

all of these individuals will likely, never meet each other in.

Josh Anderson:

. So how, how do you begin to endear folks with that?

Josh Anderson:

Uh,

Bob:

what I'm hearing is like relationship building.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Investing in relationship building, um, as a leader, I mean, you can do that,

Bob:

but you, you are in the power role.

Bob:

Mm-hmm . So they have to build relationships with you right.

Bob:

More than you have to build, you have to be open to it.

Bob:

So this has flipped that onto you.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You've had to be the seeker of relationship building.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I

Josh Anderson:

technically have no power.

Bob:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob:

You have no that's that would be creepy.

Bob:

Scary for me.

Bob:

I mean, typically.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And now I, I don't have leadership.

Bob:

You've been in leadership roles, but I have gravitas power.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Mm-hmm I, I have, mm.

Bob:

Like the history that I bring, my, my experience that I bring and,

Bob:

but that's power that's privilege.

Bob:

Um, that's, that's part of the scrum master for me.

Bob:

I gotta find a place where no one knows about me.

Bob:

All I am is an old guy.

Bob:

I, I, you know, I need a little funds to get to retirement.

Bob:

Please take me on is a scrum master.

Bob:

That would be a.

Bob:

Come up.

Bob:

I mean, that's a, yeah, that's a great landscape for me to try that.

Bob:

I'm sure I would learn some rich lessons.

Josh Anderson:

You could come and work for me.

Josh Anderson:

I'll keep you in your place.

Bob:

Would you put, would, would you take me under your

Josh Anderson:

wing?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And I would put you in your place and oh, I, yeah, I have no doubt.

Josh Anderson:

I don't care how many books you've written, sir.

Josh Anderson:

I

Bob:

that's.

Bob:

I know you don't even have to say it, right.

Bob:

Can I get you a cup of coffee, John?

Bob:

Yes,

Josh Anderson:

please.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, please.

Josh Anderson:

I don't even like coffee, but go and get

Bob:

one.

Bob:

If I, if I can get it for you, you you'll let it sit there in front of you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Quickly, uh, anywhere else we want to go with this episode.

Josh Anderson:

What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

No, I, to me, this is something that we've talked about in

Josh Anderson:

the past about the value of.

Josh Anderson:

Living in the trenches.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

On a regular basis.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Um, I was in a situation where I needed what I could get

Josh Anderson:

as quickly as I could get.

Josh Anderson:

I have some friends in the space like, Hey, cool.

Josh Anderson:

We can get you in this.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

It's not what you've been doing, but we know you'll do great.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

Just.

Josh Anderson:

And we know you need a paycheck, right?

Josh Anderson:

So like, can you do this?

Josh Anderson:

And I said, absolutely.

Josh Anderson:

Um, so I was lucky enough to be in a spot where this could happen.

Josh Anderson:

It wasn't an intentional move for me, but it is something that as

Josh Anderson:

we're talking, it's something that probably should be intentional for.

Josh Anderson:

Leaders across the board because you do lose

Bob:

touch.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

I'm thinking years ago I would send my, I mean, I would join a team mm-hmm , you

Bob:

know, we might lose a scrum master or something, or we might grow by a team.

Bob:

So I, we would need someone to fill in temporarily and I would do that.

Bob:

and I haven't done that in years.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it would, it really matured me.

Bob:

It really grew me and I have, I have, I have a lot of chops, but

Bob:

it just gave me a, a perspective.

Bob:

It gave it brought me close.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

To proximity.

Bob:

And my takeaway for this episode seriously, is I'm gonna look

Bob:

for an opportunity not too long.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Cuz I, I, but, but I wanna look for an opportunity where I can, where

Bob:

I can join a team or something, uh, and just do work, do honest.

Bob:

Scrum master work at the lowest level of serve team

Josh Anderson:

and see what I learned.

Josh Anderson:

And, and the thing that you need the most is for that team to give you feedback.

Josh Anderson:

Like I was given.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

We, we would ask that if you're a member of that team that you don't clam up yeah.

Josh Anderson:

That maybe you even lean in more.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

That's, that's good advice.

Josh Anderson:

All of those things.

Josh Anderson:

So if you're not a leader and you're listening to, to this and

Josh Anderson:

maybe your leader does listen to it and they wanna try it.

Josh Anderson:

The way you can help yourself by helping this person is providing that feedback.

Josh Anderson:

If they choose to go this path, because that feedback you give will benefit you

Josh Anderson:

over time, as eyes are opened or Reed.

Josh Anderson:

And now that's going to reenable some of the change that you maybe have been

Josh Anderson:

trying to drive or have been asking for.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, didn't happen, but.

Josh Anderson:

It's seen and felt, and there's a new connection with you and the team.

Josh Anderson:

So now there's a greater relationship which equals trust.

Josh Anderson:

So now when you come to that leader and say, Hey, I think we should do this.

Josh Anderson:

It's more like, yep.

Josh Anderson:

Let's do it.

Josh Anderson:

I've been there.

Josh Anderson:

I've seen it.

Josh Anderson:

You're right.

Josh Anderson:

I trust you.

Josh Anderson:

Here we go.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Bob:

All let's take a forward.

Bob:

Can you let's do it.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

For beautiful.

Bob:

Downtown C North Carolina.

Bob:

I'm Bob Galen.

Bob:

And I'm Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson:

shake and bake.

Bob:

Just

Josh Anderson:

do that again.

Josh Anderson:

Shake.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, we kind of missed in bake.

Josh Anderson:

Take care of y'all.

Josh Anderson:

We had a whiff.