Have you encountered someone who is so resistant to DEI work that they seem to drain all of your energy? You get sucked into the vortex of their unrelenting resistance, and often this distracts you from the work and all of the other folks that support it. This week on the show Lisa & Shaunna explain that we can call those folks that seem to exhaust you constantly “Energy Vampires.” They take our energy to fuel themselves, leaving us with less energy to spend not just in our social justice work, but in all areas of our lives. 

We all have to be intentional about how we spend our energy, whether this be in sport, our careers, or in social justice work. It is important to set boundaries, especially when interacting with “Energy Vampires,” and to direct our focus towards those folks that do have the energy and excitement to engage in DEI work alongside us.

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Shaunna, I'm watching this new comedy

show on FX. And it's called What We Do in the Shadows and it's a

mockumentary about vampires. So it's pretty funny. There's this

one character who isn't a blood sucking vampire, but they're an

energy vampire. And it made me think about those people who are

so resistant to diversity, equity and inclusion work that

they just exhaust you.

Oh, yes, they're sucking all the life and

energy out of us on a daily basis. Right. So okay, this is a

new show, I really want to hear all about the show.

I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold, and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa englefield. And I go by she

her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt

your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance.

Okay, so, yeah, there are these vampires

that have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

And they live, they you know, they live in now in 2021. And so

it's kind of covering all of their antics. And the one of the

vampires Colin, I think his name is his energy vampire. So the

way that he draws energy, so which is his feeding, right, is

that he will bore people. So you know, he's in an office

environment, and he goes cube to cube and starts talking about

things that are just very dry and very boring. And that is his

way of sucking energy from the other person. And so, you know,

so then he's, you know, no longer hungry. And I just, I

think about that, in this context, right, in endurance

sport, when you're trying to keep the momentum going. And

we've talked about momentum before, and yet, you just get

tired, because there are these one or two people that you feel

like you're banging your head against the wall. But, you don't

stop banging your head against the wall, right? Like, there's

no recognition that maybe this is this person is a lost cause

at this moment in time.

Right, right, right. Well, you know,

exactly, they're a lost cause at this moment, you realize that

you're expending more energy than you really have to give.

And as a result, what ends up happening is, it's a diversion,

really, because the people that are interested in doing the

work, they are interested in learning more, and they've kind

of primed the pump, to hear what you have to say, we're

completely neglecting those folks to pour energy into a lost

cause in many ways. And so you know, how do we get past that

point? Or is there even a point of recognition, where we

recognize that this person at the moment is a lost cause, and

therefore it's up to me to figure out what to do with my

energy at this moment, because this person is going to keep it,

they are going to be resistant. And the more they resist, the

more they're sucking the energy out of me. And I have to now

make a decision. What I'm going to do with my own energy. Yeah,

I think we have tons of people like that in our lives.

Yes, yes. Often family members.

Yes, yes. Yes.

So then it's a boundary setting thing,

right. So how do you set a boundary? You know, you're super

passionate about keeping this conversation going in endurance

sport, but there's this one person who's on the leadership

Board of your tri club, and they just won't budge. Right? And so

you really feel like it is your job to get that person to come

over to your side of things?

Right, right. Right. Well, and I love

what you mentioned previously, because let's connect the two,

both family members and that person on your tribe, club

board, whoever, those are people that you probably won't get away

from very often, you know, you're going to have those

regular encounters with that family member, you're going to

have those regular encounters with that person in your tri

club. And so, you know, I think part of it is the recognition

of, yes, I'm taking this on as my responsibility. But let's,

you know, query down into that a little bit more. Why am I

personally taking this on? Do I have anybody to back me up as

I'm doing it? Do I have anyone to even tag team where when I'm

completely tapped out, the other person can tap right in, like,

there, there has to be some kind of energy preserving strategy to

through around over under those people, because they're going to

be there. And they are just as entrenched and just as committed

to their causes as we are. And so when do we make decisions

that, not only are they not going to continue to suck energy

out of us, but we're not going to put our energy on a silver

platter and hand it over to them either. Because sometimes we

like that where we're just we're giving it to them, and we're not

letting up. We're giving to them. And so it's kind of like,

it reminds me of whether it's training or during an actual

race. Why are you running your 5k pace when you know, this is a

marathon? like that just no sense at all. And so we have to

make decisions that, Okay, I need to plant a seed or two with

this person, but move on.

Hmm. And we've talked about passing the

torch, right, if you episodes ago that this work is difficult,

and people burn out on it. And so, you know, you need to make

sure that there are other people around you, like you said, who

you can tag team with, or you can pass the torch to. But this

is a more specific thing, right? This is getting sucked into the

vortex that is the one person that you can't persuade the one

person that is, like, unrelenting in their position,

even to the point maybe where they say, you know, this is

canceled culture. You're trying to cancel me.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Well, and

that's, that's interesting, too, because, you know, kancil

culture is used often when it's most convenient. So when it's a

time where someone feels as if they're not being heard, or

there's some people, look, you are the guru on communication? I

certainly am not. But I recall many conversations where a

person thinks, Oh, well, you must not understand me if you

don't agree with me. Whereas No, I do understand 100%. And I

still don't agree with you, therefore, I have to create a

boundary now. And so you know, with that, I think, I've read

enough to know that canceled culture is questionable in and

of itself, like they're trained truly people that are, whether

they're commentators, or actual dei scholars that say it's not a

thing, right. And so if cancel culture is not a thing, then

what exactly are we trying to accomplish with the idea of

cancel culture? And for me, I think it's both the

accountability of when people harm groups or harm me or harm

another individual. So the accountability piece, but also

then the boundaries to of, no, I'm not allowing you to speak

this way in my presence, or I'm not allowing you to speak this

way in this other person's presence, who is directly

affected by your words or your actions? So I think we need to

dig deeper into what does cancel culture accomplish? What is it

meant to accomplish? I'm not quite sure I need to do a little

more reading. But I do think that we kind of throw it around

willy nilly without really knowing what we're trying to get

at with that word.

Yeah, I mean, I don't really think

kancil culture is a thing, I think used by people who are not

used to being called on their shit, right? So um, you know,

Sugar honey iced tea again, y'all

sugar honey, iced tea.

As soon as, you know, I felt threatened in

some way, or, you know, my kind of reasoning or thought process

or what I believe to be capital T, truth is challenged,

therefore, I'm going to throw out cancel culture, and put it

under this guise of freedom of speech. And everyone's opinion

is equally valid. Right? And I don't agree that everyone's

opinion is equally valid. Like if you're hurling racist slurs,

that opinion is not valid. Right? And so me asking you to

stop is not me canceling you? Right. And I? Yeah, I just I

think it's a tool. It's been used by the right to shut down

the left. Because progressives have started to call people on

the right on this shit in a much more explicit way.

Mm hmm. So it's more direct, it's more

personal, it's more? How can I say I think the people that are

most frustrated with cancel culture are also the people that

are most fragile in certain areas. So for so for example, I

this is just a theory. I don't know if this is true or not. But

from my experience, I think that people who are already oppressed

in certain groups, yet are willing to learn more about

other oppressed groups receive the criticism and the

accountability more readily because they've done it to other

people. Hmm. Whereas if you've never been held accountable for

anything, and you have the privilege of never holding

anyone else accountable for anything, then you are one of

the most fragile. And so if you're that fragile, and every

time someone calls you on anything, not only are you you

know, you could feel a plethora of different feelings, you could

feel embarrassed, what have you, but it's kind of the the double

entendre it's the not only Oh my God, I've made a misstep or I've

been offensive. And someone's calling me out on it. It's the

both and and so I'm choosing to be more offended by you calling

me out on it because that deflects from what I did, yeah,

to what you are doing. And that's more comfortable for me.

Oh, yeah. How dare you tell me that I misspoke? or How dare you

tell me that I used the wrong pronouns or, you know, it then

becomes Into an Impact once again, it just becomes a mess

because accountability is uncomfortable to people who have

never experienced it or rarely experience it. Mm hmm.

Yeah. And it's like they're throwing the

kitchen sink at you. Right. And, you know, bringing us back to

the energy suck the energy vampire, it's, it's a tool to

avoid that discomfort that we've talked about, right? Like the

the accusation of this isn't safe, or this is cancel culture

or some version they're off. Right? Right. Yeah, it just

continues to suck energy, because then you're like, so now

you're not only having to make the point around the thing that

you did or didn't do is problematic, you're now also

having to address cancel culture, this kind of cultural

phenomenon. So you got two things going on. Right. And so

your energy is being zapped at like double the pace?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Well, and

so then, okay, so I feel like I wish everyone could see the

visual of me pointing in both directions at the same time

simultaneously. It's like, okay, you can have your front wheel

going forward, and your back wheel going backwards at the

same time and get somewhere you just can't. So what direction

are we going in here? And I think that's where the

frustration comes in, is that you can't do this everywhere all

the time with everyone. And I don't want this to sound like

after, you know, umpteen episodes of this podcast that

Lisa and I are throwing cold water on ally ship. That ain't

what's what's happening here at all. It's, it's more so being a

being more of a sniper than a spray bb gun, if you will, like

you have to figure out what are the most important points that

you want to target? In your day, even as you know, folks that do

this full time, Lisa, and I have to think through what am I going

to invest my time in at the moment? And what am I not going

to invest my time in, not that we care any less, not that we

don't see it not that we're you know, turning away from what

we've witnessed. But what we're simply saying is that we have to

manage our energy. And so if I've spent 10 hours on the job

all day, doing DEI work. And then I see something slightly

ridiculous at the playground with my voice, I can't unsee it,

I have this superpower thing called DEI where I literally

can't unsee it. But I have a choice as to whether I'm going

to do something about it then or not. Because I may not have any

energy at the moment. Or I may or may need my energy to come

back to the office and do something much bigger in regards

to what I saw. And so I have to be responsible for my own

energy. And I think that's where, you know, especially

anyone that's really excited and enthusiastic about this work

now, even as they're discovering in or gaining their momentum is

that they're excited, and they want to address everyone all the

time everywhere, in every suggestion.

Yeah.

You know,if you're at the grocery

store, and somebody cuts in line in front of someone in a

wheelchair, you got to act too, if you're at work, and you see

some, I get it, you're excited about what you're doing. That's

great, and keep that excitement going on. But at some point,

this is why most people that do di work full time, have some

type of fatigue, where the turnover gets very real. And so

it happens more quickly. And so how do we make those ongoing

energy decisions? Because they happen all around us all the

time?

Well, it's kind of like in a race, right?

You're making decisions about how you're going to expend your

energy, you know, in the swim and the bike in the run, or if

you're on a cycling course. And it's hilly, right, you have to

think about how can you be most efficient with your energy so

that you have the power at the point that you need the power?

You know, you don't have a hilly course. 100%, right, you've

gotta plan.

Right, exactly. And I think that's the

challenge, though, is that if you're either new to the DEI

space or just very enthusiastic about it, folks are attacking

everything in the best of ways where they don't know what like,

even when, you know, I'm thinking about my swim pace.

Well, my pace for, you know, a seven mile swim is not going to

be the same thing as my sprint swim. It's just not. And so

what's my fast pace? What's my all day pace? What's my slow

pace and figure it out? Because I think we have to get folks to

a place of sophistication where they know what deserves energy

right now. So if we, let's throw back to the beginning, and this

is something that we talk about when we talk about momentum as

well. Let's throw back to George Floyd and pull it forward, we

could go back further than that we know we're not putting

everything on George Floyd. But just as an example for the year.

Let's say that I've spent the lion's share of my energy

because I, like I read an article the other week where the

woman who actually witnessed the George Floyd Murder, She

expended a lot of energy, witnessing that, filming that,

determining what she was going to do in response to what she

witnessed. Probably dealing with some pressure, she even

mentioned some things about, obviously, her mental health and

going to a therapist and lots of other things going on expending

a lot of energy there. Now, a year later, she has to make

decisions as to what is she now going to do, because as you can

probably imagine, in the moment, that's a ton of energy, a ton of

it, you're witnessing it, it is right there in front of your

face. So now if he intends to still keep her energy, going in

the same direction of, you know, human rights, Black Lives

Matter, resisting against police brutality, then what's going to

be the amount of energy is it now going to be a slow drip A

year later, but still a drip? Is she going to change course,

where now she has an intent? And I don't know her experience at

this point. But will she have a new career where now she drops

whatever she's been doing, and now she focuses on civil rights,

or she has options as to how she wants to live out the experience

of witnessing the George Floyd murder. And we all have to do

something similar not to that point of egregiousness, unless

you've witnessed something that heinous, but how do you choose

to expend your energy? And that's tough, but it is

something that we need to be intentional about. I think it's

gonna naturally

Yeah, and avoiding those energy vampires,

right, those potholes? I think, I've definitely been in spaces

where like, someone said something. And then I'm thinking

I like the hamster wheel is going in my head, I'd like if I

step forward into this, is the ground going to give away? And

I'm just gonna get sucked in, and it's not going to be good.

So do I stay back? Or do I step forward? And so, you know,

sometimes I've made the right choice. Or I guess the right

choice is dependent on context and perspective. But sometimes

I've fallen through the ground. And sometimes I haven't, you

know, and you don't always know that. But if you're going toe to

toe with the same person in your organization, you know, every

lunch, every meeting, then I think that is an indicator to

you that it's just not worth your time and energy at this

moment in time. Right? That doesn't mean to say that this

person is forever a lost cause. But you should perhaps think

about putting your energy elsewhere where you have folks

who are more receptive.

Right. And so I think, and this keeps

sending me back to boundaries rather than cancel culture. And

so what am I what I mean by that is, so let me give you an

example. I was interviewing someone for a position. And this

person, we gave them a scenario and ask them a question about

how had they dealt with someone who was resistant or someone

who, you know, was problematic in the organization? And how did

they maneuver to through around them. And it now it didn't help

that this person had a law background. So obviously,

they're used to making their point. They're used to doing

their research, you know, I'm not vilifying being being, you

know, well studied, well researched, and, you know,

standing your ground, of course, but what was really interesting

about that was the candidate mentioned, going back and forth,

back and forth multiple times on this particular topic around I

believe it was police brutality, but don't quote me on that. But

they went back and forth on a DEI issue. And as I'm listening

to the story unfold, I said, No, this isn't the right person for

the job. And not because they weren't well versed in DEI, not

because they weren't a leader, they clearly were a leader. It

was that as I listened to that situation, I'm thinking to

myself, this person is going to have multiple similar situations

like that on a daily basis. And the fact that this person spent

two hours crafting verbatim emails to an individual out of

their workday, that person literally will have will not

have enough time in their workday to do that. And so this

person did not show me that they had the wherewithal to make some

decisions around how to expend their energy. And so when they

asked me, What did I think about the candidate, that that was one

thing that was not helpful at all. And I'm thinking to myself,

goodness, gracious, I mean, look, if I needed somebody to

have my back, this would be the first person I mean, absolutely.

I would argue it all the way down with facts, evidence and

research. However, this person would be so exhausted that they

wouldn't have enough energy to get up and do it again. And I

think we're looking for people who can do this on a certain

level repeatedly, forever. For as long as possible.

Yeah. And, you know, we've we've talked

about self care and mental health on this podcast, and this

is something a little different. I think that we're trying to get

out here. And because you're gonna run into folks who will

just rile you up on purpose, right? There's lots of those

people that will say a thing, because they know it will

trigger you into action. I mean, I've definitely been in that

situation. And they're enjoying it. Right. So that's sucking

your energy, and they're enjoying it. So you know, you've

got a whole cadre of people who are going to take your energy

for different reasons. And I think what we're trying to say

is, you know, don't essentially don't get sucked into that,

right, make, make some choices about where that energy is going

to go. and at what time it's going to go because, you know,

then well, then you have nothing left for even for self care.

Right? Your field has been tapped dry?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

And so you know, right, figuring out when you need to expend it,

why you need to expend it. And I think that will keep more of us

in the fight for much longer, versus, you know, these one and

done type things. You know, it's like, you know, that burnout,

where it's, you know, give me one good argument or discussion,

and then that's a wrap, like, the weeks, because you've given

everything you got to a person who then took your energy, you

can't see any positive outcomes from it. And really the only one

that's deplete? Yeah, they have, I mean, it's like, it's almost

like a mosquito type of thing. It's just ridiculous. It's

ridiculous. So I'm loving the vampire imagery that you've

given us, because you're right there taking energy away with

nothing in return. And that's a problem. At least when I'm

putting energy on into my swim or on my bike, I can see myself

getting somewhere. We can't see ourselves clearly getting

somewhere, someone that's literally that entrenched, we

cannot. And and it may be sowing some seeds at some point, we

don't know. But if someone's not willing to move in inch, a

centimeter even, even as far as and I think this is kind of a

double issue to Lisa around, are we challenging them in the

content that we're talking about, and in the way that we're

engaging with them about it, because there's some people that

are staunchly against whatever content you're trying to talk

about. But some people are just simply staunchly against talking

about it at all, or having any engagement at all. And those are

two parallel topics, where they're, they're pissed off that

we're still talking about Black Lives Matter. But they're also

pissed off that, that we want to have an engagement or a dialogue

rather than an argument where someone debates and wins. So

both of those can be introduced second at the same time.

And I'm sure yeah, sorry, go ahead.

No, no, I was for that. I'm just like,

you know, how do we moderate that energy? Because we're

connected to them in some way for a certain period of time?

How do we at least disconnect? Even at periodic points? How do

we do that? I don't have a good answer for you.

Know, and it is a negotiation. Right. And

you're certainly going to be encountering people in your

organization, in your club, who are who have moved on, right.

The The Great Awakening was a momentary experience of quote,

unquote, wokeness for them. And now they don't really want to

engage anymore, because, you know, Black Lives Matter was so

yesterday.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there are

still some people that think that the, the Black Lives Matter

movement of 2020 was the first movement of Black Lives Matter

when we right. Oh, it was not, you know, so that's not the

first time. So, yeah, I just think that, you know, we have to

get really clear on identifying like, hopefully, this podcast

has helped people to more quickly identify the vampire, so

they don't have as much time to suck the energy out of them. You

know, we have to moderate our energy and whether it's di

energy, obviously, endurance sport is all about energy

conservation, and how can we expend it in certain ways at

certain times? How can we do that all the time, especially

when it comes to UI work? We just have to we have to moderate

for that. And if not, what then happens is that we we burn out

very quickly. And you know, burnout from a mental health

perspective, burnout from a DEI perspective, burnout from an

endurance sport perspective, it cuts across all of our

identities. That burnout is still very real in all those

ways.

Yeah, and just you know, kind of working

on not how not to rise to the bait, right which is hard. And I

definitely am not an expert at that. But, you know, because

these these vampires, these energy vampires are not

immediately identifiable. But you do you know, they are once

you've gone a few rounds with them, like six weeks in a row,

then I think they're an energy vampire, right? So you know, not

being able to say, Okay, I'm gonna let this one go, which is

really hard when you're very excited, and you want everyone

to think the way you do around some of these issues. You know,

and I just, it's like, what hill do you want to die on? Right?

Essentially, because your energy, if you've got zero

energy, then that's, you know, you're not useful, you know, to

your family, to your friends to your training, right? Like DEI

aside. You know, when you've had a crappy day at work, and you

come home, and you're like, Oh, my God, I have like, nothing to

give.

Right. Right.

You don't want to be feeling like that in

your off time as well.

Mm hmm. Oh, absolutely. You don't want

to. And and here's the thing. I know very little about vampires.

But what I do know is that they literally take the living

vitality from someone who has energy, they take it. And the

problem becomes, they continue to live while we don't. Yeah, at

its very basic core is that they continue to live. And that's the

exact opposite of what we're trying to do. And not to say, I

am smiting anyone, or saying I don't want somebody that's not

what I'm saying, from from an analogy perspective, is that

there are some ideas, we want to die. But as we give energy, and

it's not useful, those ideas continue to live. And in fact,

the whole point is to kind of distract us from doing the work

that we need to do. Right. So how do we make sure that the

vampires don't continue to suck our energy and distract us from

the real work because there might be, you know, think about

your organization, your tri club, your job, wherever you

might be, there might be one or two vampires that are trying to

suck the energy out of you. But then there are 80 to 100 other

people that are excited and have energy to give and share. Why

are we not focused on those folks? So you know, I think

that's another piece of the puzzle is, you know, see that

vampire for who they really are and what their purposes, their

purpose is, suck energy from you and to distract you from the

real work. And that's what we don't want to happen.

Yeah, that distraction piece is a really

important point, I think and then be ready for things like

cancel culture, discrimination. You my freedom of speech rights,

you know, those kinds of things are going to get hurled at you

by vampires, I think.

Absolutely. Oh, so that that might be a

topic for another day, Lisa is to identify the distracting

language that's used by vampires.

Yeah, we're really going down a rabbit hole

aren't we?

I know. I know. This sounds like a good

show. I think I want to log off and and go watch the show now

that you've gotten me all into it. But yeah, that we got to see

vampires where they are when they show up. And what's the

What was the name of the show again, Lisa?

What we do in the shadows.

Well, I think you know, bringing it full

circle. Let's shine the light on vampires. I hear vampires don't

like daylight too much.

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